Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 107: Free Agency Recap, More on the Draft, and Roster Outlook (with Sean Corp of Detroit Bad Boys)

Episode Date: July 6, 2022

This episode, featuring guest Sean Corp of Detroit Bad Boys, recaps free agency, talks more about the Draft, and explores how next season's roster might come together.

Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to Drive into the Basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike, joined today by Sean Corp, managing editor of Detroit Bad Boys. It would be the number one Pistons blog on the internet. Sean, thanks for joining the show today. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so let's launch right into it. So we're going to talk about the draft a little bit.

We're going to free agency. Talk about how we see this team or this roster coming together. And I'm going to talk a bit about Summer League. So the listeners have all heard my thoughts in the draft, probably more than once, actually. But yeah, so how did you feel like what stock? How did you feel going into the draft and then how the draft ended up turning out for the Pistons? Well, on NBA draft lottery night, what I told all my Pistons friends was I was I was mad that they fell to five because then we were going to have three months arguing about

whether they should draft Jaden Ivy. And so, if you told, they took Jaden Ivy. Obviously, he was the biggest boom or bust candidate on the board. I am not surprised he is number one on their board. I know he would have been in the top three or four of many teams drafting. Personally, I had a lot of reservations about what he, could do, at least at the college level, that made me a little cautious. So I had Benedict

Matherin above him on my wish list, but, you know, at some point, you just have to trust that there is a lot to like about his game. And it's all about, you know, not the player he is now, but what the team thinks he can be as a player going forward. So you just kind of hope that they're right, because if it doesn't work out for him, I think it's going to be a very rough ride at the pro level, considering the things he can't quite do on the basketball court. But if he figures it out, then he's primed to be one of the two best players in the whole draft.

So we're just going to get to see what happens along the way. And even if it doesn't work out, there'll be a lot of fun highlights to enjoy. I definitely agree with you on the boom or bust nature of it. I had Matherin number one also, just because I felt like he was more likely to reach the point of high value with the pistons, lower ceiling, definitely. But I was happy with the selection of Ivy. Like you said, it does potentially be a very special player if he can get everything together.

I think just his upside was absolutely tantalizing. And I would say definitely at the higher ceiling between he and Matherin. There was also the matter of relief on draft night. Like I really was not a fan of Keegan Murray. it wasn't just that it wasn't like the perception that oh this guy is 22 and and a role player or whatever else but what did what did you thought about kegan murray going into the draft well part of me thought when i watch him i don't see anything special but is that just my sort of amateurish eyes where you know if it doesn't pop to you then it's very easy to think a player's not going to do anything when they can be you know very effective at the pro level and all of the you know analytic model were very high on his offensive capabilities. But in the end, I just could never get myself to buy into him because I don't see a high-level defender.

I don't see a multi-positional person, really. And I don't think he has any sort of passing or playmaking future. Like, he's a scorer. He's going to get a lot of efficient points if it works out for him at the pro level, but he's not going to probably make his teammates better or make it easier for anybody sharing the floor with him. So it was kind of like, to me it was sort of like a black hole potential of an offensive prospect with not a lot of high level defensive upside as much as I did like his rebounding. But yeah, just I didn't see that huge upside on either end. With Mathrin, I really saw potential on both ends just because of his three points.

shot, the difficulty of his threes, and his sort of projection you could make as a defensive player. And then with Ivy, for me it was, you know, the Pistons are trying to pick a player to play alongside Cade. And so from Ivy's perspective, I would say the Pistons were the absolute perfect spot for him. I agree. I don't know if it was the best spot for Cade because it really depends on what Ivy can turn into as a defender. Because I really want somebody on the that can take some of that defensive pressure off of Cunningham on a nightly basis. So that's kind of what I will be keyed into his rookie year is just what are his instincts like, what's his awareness, what's his commitment to the defensive one.

Yeah, definitely. I thought it was cool. He said that Troy Weaver, when they'd had their first conversation, had challenged him to be a better defender. I thought that was really cool. But yeah, going back to Murray, like, my concerns about him were largely, like, I agree with everything he said. And certainly when it comes to passing, and the guy didn't have to pass at all at Purdue. I mean, people looked at his low turnover. It's like, okay, the guy is engaging in low turnover forms of offense because he can't really create off the dribble because his handle was terrible.

So they'd really, rarely had him try. They also never had him try to pass really at all beyond very easy passes, you know, just like man to man from 10 feet away. But it was also just the low upside I felt as a creator was just a big issue for him. me. And I just wasn't too hot and it's also that athleticism isn't all that great. But one of the things that I think was kind of instructive for me in comparing Ivy and Murray as prospects is it's one of the most difficult things is figuring out like what does their college context say about how the college game is enhancing them or how it's limiting them. And so with Murray, you're like, is this the best case scenario for what he can do and all the things.

in the college game are kind of masking those inherent flaws. And then with Ivy, part of the upside conversation for me in that I was thinking maybe he has a much higher upside than even I'm willing to admit it first was the way that Purdue ran its system, was that really inhibiting what Ivy could do as a passer and a playmaker? because the Purdue offense is so, you know, big post-driven, even as efficient as it was. It wasn't just catered to his game. And then also, you mentioned his defense and being challenged to be a good defender. Another part of the reason that I'm comfortable taking IV and just kind of betting on that investment in him working on his game is his mom's a coach.

He's around the game his whole life. as much as I don't want to fall for those intangible type arguments, I think if that's part of your mindset and your sort of work ethic, I think that it does go a long way. And a lot of times with college guys, you want to just pick the guy that's going to work on his game nonstop, because they're going to be sort of in charge of how good they can actually be to try and reach their own ceiling. Yeah. Like, I was happy. Like I was happy on the, I was happy on the, on the on draft night when the pick came up. And one of the reasons I asked about Murray was like I just,

I had such like a palpable sigh of relief like multiple size of relief. Like I had done so much like just so much draft research and just put so much time and the effort in the motion of the draft and it finally arrived. And when I when I deliver at least like my old friend of mine told me like I know what happens. You want me to tell you? And I said no. And then I went straight to Twitter.

And saw it shot from Shams the Sacramento Kings just selecting a Kiki Murray with number four, pick number four, I took a screenshot of it on the phone and, you know, for posterity. And at that point, Mathroom was my 1A, Ivy was my one B just for the upside. I was, I was happy with Ivy. And, you know, from what you said about the players being put into position that, you know, that they really need to be the ones who are going to work as hard as they can to try to reach their ceiling. And some players do that and others don't. And it was very reassuring just to find out, like, number one, throughout the draft process that he only worked. worked out for the magic with the number of overall pick and the pistons.

See, it really clearly seemed like the guy wanted to be in Detroit. And that was a big deal for me, just knowing that, not only because it's like, you know, great, he's where he wants to be. But also because it's like, okay, you know that if he wants to come here and that if the front office wants to draft him, that he is perfectly content playing second fiddle of the Kate Cunningham. Yeah, I think that a lot of the things that this draft process is, and kind of thinking about these prospects really laid plain

was that choosing Cade Cunningham number one last year was the right call because you're looking at all these prospects and you're thinking to yourself, well, they're not going to have a problem fitting alongside Cade because Cade's game is so conducive to being, you know, integrating well with other high-level players and making them better and fitting in because he just has such a well-rounded approach

even compared to like in Evan Mobley or a skis. Scotty Barnes, which I know some people, you know, I don't expect any team that drafted last year to regret their pay. It's a great draft. There's tons of high-level prospects, but like, when you're thinking about the Pistons could have literally had anybody, I'm still glad they had Kid Cunningham because it, like, everything locks into place. They have that guy that you're trying to fit other people around, and it's just going to be so easy to fit people with high skills around Cunningham. That's kind of what made me even more excited about that pick going into this year than I was excited last year.

Yeah, I mean, last year was, I mean, like, the Pistons got monumentally fortunate to get pick number one. I've said it many times in this podcast. I'll say it again, probably many times in the future. They got monumentally fortunate to win that lottery in what's been looking to be an incredibly strong draft. And yeah, I thought, I think Cabe was the pick from. from beginning to end. And yeah, so, I mean, the Pistons, you know, they've got a great player on their hands who you said, yeah, can make it work with just about anybody. I was, like, going back to what you said about his days at Purdue, I was a little bit concerned as, like, is Jade and I

be going to be the guy who just wants to be constantly attacking downhill with the ball in his hands? Is, like, is he going to be better suited as a lead guard if he can get that together? But, like, you know, if he's going to work with Kate, he needs to develop along certain lines with certain skills and and not only that fully buy in to the number two guy role to not wanting to be the number one guy in his team and it seems like that's something he's perfectly willing to do based on the fact that he wanted to come play with kade and in what was i'm sure a very thorough interview process they they judged that he was willing to play that role yeah and i think you know from the moment he stepped on the court as as a rookie kade you know it was his team that was clear for all the

young guys. It was clear for all the veterans. And when you think about what could have happened, I think back to a couple years ago when Cleveland drafted two guards high up, and they were both kind of vying for supremacy of the team between Garland and Sexton. What's his name? Yeah, with Sexton. And it's just because there was no clarity on, you know, who's the alpha, who's the secondary. That's not an issue with the Pistons because, you know, It's Kate's team.

People want to follow him. He wants to lead. He's going to be a high-level player. And so drafting a high-level person, they know how they fit. They know there's a pecking order. There's not going to be any of those struggles for control. And so as far as their games, or as far as Ivy's game, maybe he wants to be sort of a leader. And that's not going to be an issue in Detroit or not going to be a possibility.

I don't think it's going to cause any friction because, you know, know, the lines are pretty clear, the lines of delineation. Yeah, I would say so. And I mean, it was, it was kind of like a sort of gray area in Purdue because he was playing next to, like, he wasn't playing point guard. Like, he was just doing a lot of attacking downhill and he did possess the ball quite a bit, but he wasn't playing point guard. And to your point about, like, was he enhanced or not at the NCAA, playing with two centers at all times probably wasn't ideal. But. Yeah, yeah. One of the things that most excited me about the pre-draft process was he clearly saying that he wasn't a point guard because

you know the draft evaluators look at his size and they want to compare him to like Russell Westbrook or something or John Morant for some reason and you know they want to say point guard and I look at his tape I never for a second saw somebody that could play

a point guard and so I was like is you know if the only way he can be successful is as a point guard that's going to be a problem as I got deeper into it I think some of the things that got me more on to the J-Nivey train was I really think he can do a lot of things off the ball. And again, that's a great reason to have Kate Cunningham around because he's going to create a

lot of opportunities for I.V. That's why I think Detroit was a great situation for Ivy himself, because as a cutter and as somebody in transition and as a secondary playmaker, I think he's going to have a lot of opportunities, you know, all things considered for a rookie to really have a lot of success. Yeah, going down to the more detailed level, like, how do you, I mean, obviously this will develop organically and who knows if, you know, really what we'll see early on in the season, but how do you see the coaching staff playing he and Kade together, like, as far as what Ivy will do alongside Kade.

If I had a guess. Yeah. I think if I had a guess right now, I wouldn't be surprised if they brought Ivy off the bench initially until they get a better sense of what his parameter game looks like, just because the Pistons team's a bit of a mess from a perimeter shot making perspective. So yeah, I would say that

it would probably be Cade and Burks in the starting lineup and then Dwayne Casey loves his all bench units and this season at least the Pistons can if not put out a good bench unit they could put out a very

fun athletic bench unit. I think they might kind of go in that direction and then end games, you know, if possible with the vaunted Dwayne Casey three guard lineup with Cunningham, Ivy, and player X kind of on the wing running around like crazy to try and, you know, close the deal. Yeah, but, I mean, once they do start playing them together, I mean, so we've got Cade who's operating pretty heavily on the ball.

I mean, he's a guy who's going to be the point end for your offense, period. What sort of actions? I mean, how do you, how would you, like, put it this way, if you were the coach, But how would you play the two of them together most effectively? Like what would each of their roles be? Well, to me, I think for maybe the ninth consecutive season, I want the Pistons to play faster. They never seem to actually figure out how to do it. Right.

But, you know, if you have a rebounder that can, you know, kick it out to K and create in transition, like they have some guys that can fly down the floor. So I want them to kind of create a season. for Ivy in transition to do something with the ball before the defense gets set. I think that's a lot one of the ways he can score a lot of easy points. Then, you know, then it just becomes hunting out a good pick and roll mismatch. I think they need to play a lot more pick and roll than they have been. Less pure motion because I don't think they have really the bodies for it.

And I just want to see sort of them still relying on K to create most of the offensive looks. and using Ivy as sort of that multi-screen guy who can try and get open. And just, if not open, make the defense overreact and create a secondary option for Cade or for Ivy when he gets the ball. Because I think his athleticism can really shift what the defense is able to do in ways the pistons haven't had. And that can create looks for some of the more limited, you know, athleticism players in Detroit. And then when you give Ivy ball, you know, it should be keeping it simple, trying to get him to create an opening to the lane and see if he can just do something with it. Because he doesn't need a lot of an opening to actually get to the rim and finish at the rim. So it doesn't need to rely solely on his ability as a passer.

It can just be, you know, it's your rookie year. be a bowl in a china shop, get to the rim, get to the line, create easy opportunities, get them in the bonus. Don't overcomplicate things. Yeah. So I think it's worth saying,

with noting with Ivy, and worth noting in the context of this draft, and this draft is really something else in that, like, the consensus top five guys all had significant flaws. I mean, whereas, last season was just much, much stronger. So, you know, I think it deserves to be said with Ivy

that there may be, there may be some growing pains. I mean, he's got more to adjust to at the NBA level than Kade did. Do you agree with that? And if so, what do you see is possibly the areas he's really going to need some time to work on in the NBA? Well, I think, you know, what do you do when somebody goes under the screen? Because that's what Ivy's going to see all the time. What are you going to do when the team is so bad from the perimeter that you have multiple defenders with a foot in the paint at all times?

how does that negate ivy's pure athletic advantage against his opponent i think there's going to be offensive problems that this team's going to have because they don't have people that you're afraid to leave open on the perimeter and that's going to not be great for kate it's not going to be great for ivy especially as he's learning the NBA game you know maybe they figure some things out and uh you know they've added some verticality to the lineup that i think could help help Cade Killian and Jade Nivey see some success with big men, you know, with Duren when they want to give him minutes and with Noel as a finisher at the rim that they have not had. So it'll be interesting, but I think this is still going to be, you know, a bottom 10 offense and rookies aren't usually good. They're usually not efficient.

You're not hoping to see sort of like a struggle like Jalen Suggs had last year. But if he struggled not being able to. able to, you know, rely on his pure athleticism, similar to what sucks was unable to do last year, it wouldn't exactly shock me. Yeah, definitely. I mean, this is a multi-year process. Like you're, like you said, rookies often struggle. Rookies who handle the ball a lot of in struggle. I mean, I'll be handling the ball a fair amount. And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised and I wouldn't be concerned either if he went in and had a difficult season. Like you, do you often see these guys get it together? You know, you're hoping to see a significant improvement in the

two and then further on in year three. But yeah, I mean, I'd say there could be growing pains. Like you said early in the episode, I mean, the sky's the limit if he can really get it all together. Well, maybe not the sky, but he can be very, I would say he's a guy who could be a number two in a championship team if he can get it all together. Yeah, I know people kind of dismiss his passing, which I think is fair because if you were going to give them the keys to your team as the point guard, I'd have a lot of concerns. Yeah. Mustins aren't in that position. And I think about it, you know, from my limited Pistons perspective, like when I remember Rodney Stuckey trying to run point guard, he was very proficient at making the simplest reads. I think that's kind of similar to Ivy's game as a passer.

He can make the pass if it's pretty obvious. Wait, wait, wait, surely the Pistons didn't try to make Stucky a point guard, though, right? I'm afraid they did. Yeah. Even Stucky was like, was like, even Stuckey said that the Chonty Dreamer. it was a bad idea. Yeah. But if he was a shooting guard, that would have gone down a lot easier.

And so, like, you know, he doesn't need to be John Morant as a passer if he's a secondary playmaker and score. So, like, put him in a position so he can succeed. And I think, if not pleasantly surprised, I think his passing ability is not going to be as concerning as a lot of people think because he's not going to be the point guard of the piston. Yeah, I think he'll probably At least this is how I projected

I would say that he'll be on the floor with the point guard At most if not all times unless we see some very significant improvement in this passing I do really I mentioned the all bench lineup I'm very curious to see What this new injection of athleticism does for a player like Killing Hayes who's struggled so mightily Because he's he's trying to make things happen on the floor

as a passer that like the pistons just functionally weren't able to execute from an athleticism perspective and he has no you know shot of his own and so it's really hamstrung him obviously the only way he's going to be successful is if he develops a friggin jump shot that's at least so mediocre instead of downright awful but it was bad you know as a passer he's already done absolutely amazing things and now he has, you know, new toys in Jayne Ivy, Jalen Duren, Maryland's Noel to play with, and people that actually are actually going to be able to finish his lobs and finish his, you know, opportunities that he's creating for them. So I really hope this season, as much of a struggle as it's going to be,

it allows Killian to really cement his NBA game as something that's worth, you know, investing in and developing more. I hope so. Yeah, let's talk about that a little later. when we talk about the roster at large. You mentioned Duren. Let's move on to him. So Duren, of course, the second first round acquisition of the night

and the one that I think made all of our heads swim because it came completely out of left field. We thought we were going to have to take on. Gordon Hayward maybe to cap down to get that pick. And in the end, all it took was the Knicks being completely desperate and making a really one-sided trade. I mean, I guess they just really wanted Jalen Brunson for some reason. Definitely.

This was a good, this was a good, the off-season to be a team full of money with nobody having, you know, any money to spend. Because as much as the off-season was all about, you know, should they drink, should they sign Aiton or should they sign, you know, a high-price player, I'm happy to see that they took the opportunity to be patient and take advantage of the situations in front of them, gets them a player like Duren, who's, you know, I don't invest a lot of time in researching centers because typically, particularly where the Pistons, you know, draft with their native actual pick. That's not a place where I would want them to take a center, so to speak.

But, you know, if you thought Isaiah Stewart was absolutely just yoked out and full of muscle, like Duren is an absolute insane person to be that strong and be the youngest player in his draft. And I think as much as you can nitpick what Duren's production was at the college level. He was the youngest player in his draft class, and I think that counts for a lot. To be that successful as an 18-year-old in college, I think, says a lot about his natural ability. And so as a rebounder and as a vertical rim threat, I'm very excited to have Duran on the team. Yeah, he was legitimately a high school senior in his year of Memphis. And also, Nicky reclassified, this would have been, if he hadn't reclassified, they would have gone.

through four four years of high school. This would have been, an upcoming season, would have been his first in the NCAA. Yeah, played under, in my opinion, a very poor coach at Memphis. And so might have things

that we hadn't seen yet. But yeah, a guy, a guy I would have liked at number 10 and beyond. It could be a project. You know, could take some time. Much prefer him to paying a guy like Aiden. So what do you think we'll see out of him in season one?

Because I think one of the big storylines or one of the big things to think about is like, you know, largely development season for him in which he might not play much, or maybe we actually see this guy put in some significant minutes this season. I think that all signs after drafting Duran point to them viewing it as a project development year strictly. And that doesn't mean he won't see minutes,

but like you don't trade for New Orleans Noel without the intention of rerouting him if you wanted to, you know, carve out time specifically for Duren. And they already have Stewart. It looks like they're committed to furthering his development. They still have Olenic. You know, they have, what, five players now whose best primary position is center. So even though some of those players have to play out of position at power forward, there's not going to be a lot of center minutes.

There's going to be, you know, spot minutes for him. Maybe if they want to inject some athleticism or just need to, you know, change the pace up, throw him out there, but I expect to see him a lot with the cruise this year and just working on his game. Because again, he's 18 years old. He should be a freshman in college. He has a lot to learn. So just, you know, let him learn it at its own pace. There's no expectations for during this year. He is pretty raw. Definitely. It's, it's tough to know how a player like that is going to translate right to the NBA because, you know, he had his struggles in the NCAA. and the NBA, of course, is just drastically higher level of competition than the NCAA.

Any weakness you have is going to be very, very on display and very exploited if it's an exploitable one. So, yeah, I agree. It may take Duren some time to get his feet under him. I mean, again, super young. Like, he's got plenty of time. It just, yeah, there might be some rough edges there that really take maybe the whole season to iron out. And that wouldn't be unreasonable. and I don't think that would be a bad outcome.

Yeah, I would caution, you know, just caution people if you're, you know, maybe not to expect a ton out of during the season and not to be surprised if he's maybe not getting minutes at all in the early stages. Yeah, and I think some people, or at least if there's a guard prospect, I get a little more concerned with them spending almost all their time in the G-League because I think you can learn some bad habits there that are tough to break in how you're able to be effective in the G-League. I think that's less common for big men. What he's asking, going to be asked to do at the G-League level is probably going to be

very similar to what he's asked to do at the NBA level. It's all about rebounding. It's all about figuring out how to be a defender. It's all about finishing, you know, at the rim. So he can work those out, learn defense, build his confidence up, learn what it takes to be a pro at the G-League, almost all here and he's not going to come to the pistons when he gets those minutes and, you know, be playing out of control like some of those guards in the G League can be prone to do. Yeah. Yeah, one thing that I think he really needs to focus on, really needs to work on. And it's just, it's tough to know with Duren, what is just raw and really young and what is

actually issues. Like his touch at the rim is something that concerns me, just in terms of the fact that, for example, he shot like 53% on wayups at Memphis. And like that's my concern about Duren is that like is he going to be the guy on offense who really struggles to finish when it's not a dunk and also struggles in the free throw line. And therefore, despite being a traditional big who can't space the floor isn't all that efficient. So that's one thing I think you could really stand to work out in the G league is just that finishing, you know, being under control, taking his time, establishing his position physically, not taking layups. They're going to result in him getting stuffed. and I think that would be a very good place for him to work on it.

And the G-League is still much more difficult than the NBA. The NCAA is much less difficult than the NBA, of course. So that I think could be a good intermediate step. And, you know, it'll be fun to see him in the G-Leaks. And I do want him to get time. So, like, just get run, figure out what it takes to be on the floor. So I'd rather him spend a lot of time in the G-League than barely playing minutes for the Pistons. like again he's 18 let him figure it out yeah i think yeah i think you could go either way i mean i think

he'll need to reach a certain threshold in order to stay with the pistons and you know who knows maybe he'll play more minutes there than we expect yeah it's just hard to say but yeah i agree with you that i'd rather have him actually getting real minutes in the g-league but i think there are things he could really work on than it also like what you said about players in the g-league he'll be one of the few guys who's actually playing defense there and that could be fun to watch but But yeah, I think there are some things he could definitely work on there that would suit him better than just, you know, throwing him into the fire in the NBA and a player who has got a lot of potential, but it's definitely still very raw. And yeah, I don't like the Drummond comparisons. Those get brought up a lot because it's like, you know, they're both really young and they're both really raw.

And I feel like Drummond was kind of like just a, oh, look, this guy is super athletic, but rough in every single way and his concerns are, does he care enough about basketball? and does he have a maturity? And I don't think those are the concerns about Duren. I think the only real overlap there is that they're both fairly raw offensively. Duren's much further along than Derman was defensively. Yeah, and I would say that from a personal player perspective point of view, I love a center that doesn't care if they only get six shots. You know, just take advantage of the opportunities given to you.

Don't try and be a player that shoots 14 times against. game to get, you know, 16 points because that doesn't really matter. So just, you know, I, that's why I don't spend a lot of time on prospects at, you know, center because I view them as primarily just give me a defender, give me a rebounder, give me somebody with some pain protection. And then, you know, the points will come when other players create opportunities for them. And hopefully that's the perspective. Duren has, we'll see.

I mean, it seems like it was a role that he was fully, willing to take in Memphis, even though it squeezed him out of the offense a lot, that, I mean, when he was squeezed out of the offense, he could get a little bit listless, though I think it was less disillusionment and more just having, those are the mode of concerns. It's like, how does, is the guy going to be kind of the maniacally hard worker that a traditional center needs to be when he's not on the ball, or like when he's not involved in a play? And I'm not too worried about that.

Hopefully, he just finds his ways. Yeah, but from what I, from what I saw, he doesn't seem to be the kind of player who's, just hungry for the ball. And Drummond was one of those guys, just wanted his usage, wanted his touches, wanted to score. And that was one of the things that made him so infuriating. One of the maturity concerns that turned out to be completely accurate. So, yeah, I think, I mean, what do you see is Duren's a probable, you know, how he's going to turn out as, you know, on offense in particular? I think we can agree that he's got pretty high defensive potential as an inside and out guy.

I mean, it'd be great if he could develop out his game. It's so hard because every big man prospect now it's it's such a part of their development to you know work on a jump shot try and expand beyond that paint area even if durin just you know rebounded well and figured out defenses blocked some shots and then shot plus 65 percent within you know the painted area that would be as good as i would want any center prospect to be and then if he can grow from there to be a competent three or competent free throw, you know, conversion and then also kind of develop a mid-range game. I don't put any expectations for that or even a three-point shot.

That's just kind of gravy. But you never know because everybody wants to be a three-point shooter now. And if you can unlock a big man that can shoot threes, it kind of completely changed to your offense. So who knows? Yeah, let's see. And he's got some, I think some upside as a pass or two. So, all right. So, yeah, I don't think, we'll skip over Gabriel Proceda in part because I don't really know anything about him.

I've really done any research in him. Almost certainly going to Europe. Unclear if he's going to, well, I'd say 100% going to Europe at this point. And unclear if we'll play at Summer League. But let's move on to free agency. So only four significant moves in free agency and two of them were by trade, really. So when it was during right around the free agency period. Marvin Bagley, back to Pistons, three years, 37.

million. Kevin Knox, two years, six million. And then you brought in Nerlands, Noel, and Alec Berks by trade alongside $6 million in cash, an actual second round pick, and then another second round pick, which was absolutely a throw-in. And the second round pick the Pistons got back, I believe, was theirs for, for 2023, I think. That's correct. Yeah. And then the other one was, like, basically you have to send something in a trade. And one of the things you can send is a second run, you know, is any draft pick. The most you can protect the pick is top 55. And this was in the Dwayne Wade trade where the, where the cavaliers sent him back to Miami. And Miami just sent back something that was not because you have to send either a pick, a pick swap, cash rights to a draft

pick or a player. And so this was just basically a pick that included no cash and whatnot. Pistons had it briefly on draft night in 2019. And they sent it out, they got it from Cleveland. They sent it out to Dallas and the in the servetus trade. Anyway, so let's start with the free agents. How did you feel about Marvin Bagley getting $37 million? It was certainly more than I expected. I guess I was naive after I expected the Pistons to sign Diallo for a much bigger number of last off season, that maybe there was just a muted market for a restrictive free agent.

In the end, I think I'm more concerned about the years than I am the money, just because we were talking about Duren, I think best case scenario, Duren sort of negates the need for Bagley in that third year. So, you know, high end, hopefully he's somebody you could flip for something else. Low end, you have $12 million, $13 million. You can't really move off your books. That's not a huge deal because the cap sheet is so clean. But it's a lot of money to invest in somebody who's that poor of a defender

and that limited of an offensive creator. Now, he did unlock something that this team was desperately, you know, in search of last year, which was rim verticality, pressure in the paint offensively to help create situations and opportunities for the guards. He made, I just checked 86% of his shots within three feet. Like, you can't get better than that pretty much. So he's providing value as somebody who can convert at the rim. He just doesn't do much else.

And so this is betting on upside. I don't know how much upside there is at this point, even considering his development nightmare in Sacramento. So hopefully I'm wrong and he can really grow his game. But this seems like, you know, a high-level athlete that will just be able to convert at the rim for a couple years. And that's needed. I just don't know if I would invest that much money in it.

Yeah, it was more than I expected also, again, in part based on the DLO contract, but also just the lack of any likely competition on the market. Like the MLA teams were not likely to spend those on that on Bagley rather than somebody who can actually help right now. And the other Capspace teams are going to be super interested in Marvin Bagley. So it was more than I expected. I think that he got extra money so that he would be on several, on three guaranteed years rather than like a one plus one on lower.

salary, so they must really believe in him. Yeah, like you said, he really provided something last season the Pistons needed and that they had been bizarrely lacking into that point because Weaver did not provide a vertical spacer or a strong role man from season's start, which was, I think tough on Cade. And it was very helpful for them to have a strong role man, very helpful to have a guy who could convert it high percentage in the paint as nobody else could, none of the other, neither of the other centers. Well, not including Garza, who barely played and was not, unfortunately not an NBA caliber player. And so, Yeah, strong finisher, strong will man, vertical spacer.

And that was very good for Cade. I don't think Marvin was actually really all that good because he still couldn't space the floor, still couldn't create any offense for himself, those things cost. But he definitely did provide something they needed. It's just that in his own right, he really wasn't all that great. There was also the defense, which was horrible. Yeah, I think that, you know, Pistons fans last season were like, you know, dying of thirst in the desert when they traded for Bagley.

and there was just such a lack of verticality on the team that when he arrived, people think that he created a much higher level offense for the team as a whole than he did. Like, he definitely provided that pressure on the rim, and he definitely helped the guards create some opportunities, but it's not like all of a sudden Detroit became a top 10 offense. And he gives so much back on the defensive end.

I also think that he works best as a job. center and can't really function as a power forward at a high level. So the fact that as the team is constructed, it seems like they're carving out space for him as a power forward pretty exclusively right now concerns me. But, you know, the pistons are going to be a bad team. He creates another one of those athletic threats that the team didn't have. So maybe they can turn this group of athletes into something interesting. Yeah, I would think like on defense, I think the jig is up on him playing.

center. I mean, he's a horrible interior defender. But, uh, and as a half decent, like a half decent at this point, defender in the perimeter, like not good, um, but not a horrible liability. So yeah, I view him as a bench player primarily, even, you know, considering his upside. Yeah. I, so I think, yeah, you can think about what his developmental issues or what of his developmental issues may have been caused by being in a nightmare of situation in Sacramento, though he definitely wasn't the most cooperative at times, by all accounts. But it was a terrible situation there. You do also have to think about the injuries. Those are there. I don't think we're looking at anything that's particularly, it's likely to be chronic. So the Pistons clearly believe in him. The front office

clearly believes in him. They traded for him. It was a low price, but they traded for him. And they gave him this contract. So what do you think, if you were to put yourself in the front office's shoes, what is the upside you see there? I think that they must imagine he can figure out a jump shot, which I find very, I'm skeptical of that. But I don't see how he works as a high level NBA player unless he can figure out how to sink 15 feet and out at a semi-consistent basis. Because I, I just don't see the defensive upside, period. He's going to be a plus offensive player if he develops going forward. And then you just hope to mitigate him to be partially bad on defense instead of terrible.

But it has to be all about having some faith in him developing an actual three-point shot instead of like a theoretical three-point shot. So if he can figure that out at like a 35% clip and then be one of the best interior finisher, It's like you have something to work with there. I have my doubts, but from their perspective as an organization as somebody that wants to invest three years in a 22-year-old player, I imagine that's what they're seeing. Yeah, I think the jump shot, I 100% agree, has to come along,

in part because he's going to be playing a power forward, I think, because maybe it's a situation where he plays like at center on offense and power forward on defense. But, yeah, to be a guy who's worthwhile, yeah, I think you just have to have that jump shot. I agree. He has to be that valuable offensive. player. And so they must have faith in that. I would say more than 35%. I think you really just

want him to be a reliable shooter when he's left open period. He shot 19% on wide open three's last season. So he's got a long way to go. You know, if he can pull that off, cool. I think you've got potentially a good rotation player going forward. What would you think about this? Because like, positing a situation in which Isaiah Stewart ends up on the bench in the long term, like let's say Duren develops. Do you think Stewart stays in the starting lineup or do you think they run him as a bench center. I think he would work best as a bench center because he has issues as a short roll passer. He still doesn't have a three point shot, though maybe they think he can develop it. And I think center plays to his strengths in putting him at power forward, maybe accentuates his

weaknesses. So I'd rather see him as a bench center than a out of position power forward long term. Yeah, I agree. It's for me also. It's issues not just in the short role, but as a role man in general. I mean, Kade needs a good one of those. And Isaiah is. undersized, poor leaper doesn't have the greatest hands and not the greatest finisher either. So let's see, let's say a situation in which you have Stuart on the bench, and you can maybe play these two as a duo where Stewart's going to be playing center on defense, and it's not ideal for Stewart to just be hanging out on the perimeter and shooting threes, but, you know, and that's the role I would absolutely not want him to have on the starting lineup because

he's just going to be way too easily guarded. But we can posit a situation in which Marvin Bagley is the guy running the role for the bench unit and able hopefully able to shoot three. Is you think that would be a good situation with the two of those, with the two of them? I mean, I do think that the Pistons as an organization obviously saw Stewart's flaws, and that's why a player like during appeal to them. But I think one of the things they like about him as a prospect still to this point is that he does provide some multi-position flexibility and sort of switching offense for defense on either end, depending on who his front court partner is.

So if they find a good match for him in bench units and also finishing units, I think he could still finish games because I do like his defense quite a bit. And he could basically be situationally. I could see a lot of situations where they see a matchup that they want Stewart on the floor for to end games. So I think he could work with a Bagley. I think he could work with even a Noel in certain situations if they really. really want to key in on defense.

But I think long term, it's just about him being a long-term bench center if they can't really continue to grow his game in the starting lineup. Gotcha. Yeah, so Bagley, I think we can say just for this season, defense, shooting, and hopefully a lot of both. So let's move on to Kevin Knox. But first, a quick word from our sponsors. The action never ends at Drafking Sportsbook, especially this summer, with tons of ways to

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Minimum major eligibility restriction supplies. He's show notes for details. Okay, so moving on to Kevin Knox. My opinion, he was terrible in the NBA up to this point, and this is absolutely 100% just a, like, let's see if he has anything of that potential and try to make it. I mean, yeah, we've, We've seen this with Weaver before.

He signed Okafore. It didn't work out. He signed Jackson. That didn't work out. You know, you just keep mining for gold until something hits. Will this one hit? I doubt it. The team was desperate for some perimeter threat from the power forward position.

So I imagine they view him as a spot minute undersized power forward that maybe, you know, camps out in the corner, shoots and threes. Maybe he continues to develop. He's still really young. I have very low expectations for Knox as a contributor and a player. And, you know, the price is right. It's $3 million. I'm not even sure if the second year is guaranteed.

But, you know, even if it is, because I think O'Kefour was guaranteed, like, easy to get rid of. Yeah. Basically, just a swing on potential. I mean, Knox, like, you had one season that's a decent shooter, if I remember correctly. It's not an outright bad shooter, but in general, just the terrible NBA player in his rookie contract. I mean, you say what you will about where he was playing. And the Knicks persist in struggles at really developing players. And also the huge market, which isn't always ideal for rookies and just young players who struggle because it's completely merciless.

But he was awful. Like, legitimately awful. At the same time, if you know you're going to be a bad team, which I feel like the Pistons know that their upside is probably somewhere around 30 wins. Like, you take a swing at a young player and see if putting him in a new situation. and maybe those years have paid off and them figuring out, you know, a maturity level, a work ethic level to grow their game to try and make sure

this is not their last stop. Like, you just go for it. And then when it doesn't work out, you haven't really done any long-term damage. You're giving a young player a shot. And we'll see what happens. Yeah, I think it was, it's a swing. It's a swing for a low price.

I mean, yeah, he was terrible. That's why nobody offered him a con. I mean, that's why he was off. floated by the Knicks, and he was awful with the Hawks, too. But yeah, it's a swing for a low price, and we hope for the best. So moving on to the other two guys, and we talked about them, you know, fairly at length in the last episode. But Noel and Birx, oh, another downside, you know, another implication of Kevin Knox being

signed as a fond farewell to Roddy McGruder, who was by all accounts, just a great locker room guy for the last two seasons, but there's no space in the roster for him. There are 15 contracts now. Also, Carson Edwards, who was always going to be gone, who got paid $75,000 to play like four games. It helps to be an NBA caliber player. Frank Jackson, who I think just had such a bad season, that they were uncertain if his good performance from 3 in 2020,

2020, 2021 was a blip. Yeah, why do you think Frank Jackson got let go? One, I think that you saw a big shooting efficiency surge in the NBA in general in the, you know, fanless season. Oh, yeah, it's huge. Yeah, so that might have played into. to his bump, and then he couldn't really figure it out last year. He wasn't healthy.

It was just like there was just no room. They just made, they have so many undersized guards already on the team that there's just no room for Frank Jackson to be another one. So, you know, speaking of the Deerleap, most likely departed Magruder, like if he stuck around and then the Pistons found themselves with a roster spot, I wouldn't, you know, we can talk about all the Kevin Knoxes in the world. I think there's space for a player like Magruder to just be a competent individual, you know, in the locker room on the practice floor. And, you know, blessedly, somebody who can actually make a three-point shot for the Pistons.

So, you know, if he fought his way back on the roster, I definitely would not be too upset about it. Yeah. And then Garza gone as well. Garza is, by all accounts, a great guy. It's a hard worker. Unfortunately, being a hard worker and a great guy cannot make one overcome the terrible lack of mobility and an incredibly athletic and fast league. The guy just couldn't have no hope of playing defense at the NBA level, really.

He would have to be one of the best three-point shooters from the big man position in the entire NBA to have a hope of really sticking in the league. So, yeah, he can keep working on a shot. He can probably find success overseas, but I just don't see it for him in the NBA, but we'll see. He'll put the work in. Yeah, I think he would have been taking more than just three. I mean, his post offense didn't translate from the NCAA.

I mean, he scored 10 points per game from the post in Iowa in his senior season. And that translates for hardly anybody, and it did not translate for him. So, yeah, that to his troubles running the role. His troubles is a defensive rebounder. but it's just his defense. You make him switch. If he's in a switch situation, he's going to get burned. You make him cover ground.

He'll get there too late. You make him defend the rim. He's not going to have time to get into position. He can't jump to challenge anyway. So wish him the best, but this was the reason he dropped, almost dropped out of the draft entirely after being NCAA player of the year. So Noel, Alec, we talked about them in the last episode. But first, I don't know as much about Noel in terms of switch defense.

Are you more familiar with him as a player? I know that pre-Nix years, he was a very underrated interior defender and sort of perimeter defender when he was locked in. I think he had some awareness issues that coach has found very frustrating, but he has the mobility to figure it out. I think age is starting to catch up with him just a little bit in New York. And so maybe he's not that, you know, high-level defender he once was, but he's still a very useful veteran player who's going to positively contribute on defense. He's going to be able

convert, you know, those looks right at the rim on offense that are going to be appreciated. But, I mean, I don't know what his age is off the top of my head, but I think the miles are starting to pitch up with him. And so he's a player that relies a lot on his athleticism to work on it as a high-level defender. And so when that starts to slip, I think, you know, obviously that defense is going to slip a little bit too but he's already going to be one of the best or the best you know interior defensive player we have so he's going to find his as an interior defensive player i think so just because he can change shots at a level stewart won't be able to and uh block shots at least pre new york he was he was very good at blocking shots i think he struggled

a little bit with the Knicks there. And I like Stewart as a defender, but more as somebody who you can kind of throw all over the place and you won't get lost. But if you actually are looking for like somebody who is going to dissuade people from attacking the rim, New Orleans, I think does things that Stewart just can't do. Yeah, I agree with that in terms of he's a more formidable rim protector.

I mean, Stuart is a strong rim protector, like in terms of his percentage. But, yeah, in terms of dissuading people from attempting it, And in terms of flying in on help side defense, Stewart just doesn't have the ability to fly anywhere, unfortunately. So, yeah, Noel's strong, you know, strong defender. Yeah, I'd have to, I looked around for tape about his switch defense, but just couldn't find it. But he'll be a fairly strong interior defender, can run the role, vertical spacer. And Burks has some limitations on offense in terms of, you know, what he can provide beyond that. But that's fine.

Burke's, of course, high percentage shooter, a good motion three-point shooter. So, yeah, my opinion is just that these were good one-year contracts for the Pistons for veterans who can contribute. Yeah, I think that they're basically brought on to provide that level of veteran competency on both ends in ways that just the team is desperate for it, and that really complement the natural athletic abilities and skills of the younger players on the roster. that doesn't mean the pistons are going to be good. These two guys, Berks and Noel, might be good enough

and show enough that they're helping while they're on the team. And then by the trade deadline, maybe they become attractive chips for just a lower level deal that the pistons can flip. And, you know, if not, if they're still on the team the whole season, the team is going to, the pistons are going to have so much cap space in the offseason and have a better sense of where their young guys are and what they need to kind of complete. the building of an actual playoff contending team that you can see a situation where they

let go of both of them or they hang on to one of them because they'll be on a decent contract for one more year if it makes sense. But the pistons are not wedded to either guy. They're kind of the definition of a stopgap, competent player as a big man and as a perimeter player. All right, well, let's talk how we see this team coming together. So you've got all 15 spots filled up now. You know, they've got a lot of depth, so to speak, in terms of guys who play a lot of positions. I mean, at point guard, you've got four guys between Kate Hayes, Kojo, and Sabin, a shooting

guard. Like a lot of these guys can play multiple positions. Ivy's probably just been playing shooting guard, but you've got him. You have Berks, Kojo, we can play there as well, and DLO, and whatever. It's just, there's a lot of guys, the pistons are going to want to get minutes, and they may not all be able to get minutes. and yeah but if you were i think you might have said this earlier in the show if you were to put together a starting five just today who would be the five guys you put on the floor i i struggle with this because i still

don't really see a player i want to call a power forward on this team so i think right now you're starting kade you're starting burks as a veteran presence that can hit a three then you're slotting Sadiq at small forward, you're probably putting Bagley at Power Forward in it, and Isaiah Stewart at center and just running it out there and seeing what happens. I could also see a world where they want Noel to be a center in this lineup to help negate some of the issues, but because I think they're invested in Stewart, they'll probably start with him there. And then they go with a bench unit of Hayes and Ivy and the chaos that can ensue there, and then supplementing that with Kelly Alinic at, you know, power forward, Noel at center, and then Isaiah

livers as a small forward. And then, you know, injuries happen. People struggle. I think that Diallo and Corey Joseph are players that are just going to kind of slot in as things are kind of being mixed and matched. And then otherwise people are, you know, fighting for time out of the rotation, et cetera. And what if a miracle happens and Della comes back, able to shoot? That would be a miracle, so I don't see a high likelihood of that happening. But I think that he's kind of like the utility infielder of the pistons. So he's going to just find himself getting probably a lot of minutes at a lot of different

positions as Duane Casey tries to figure out what he has and which player combinations work. So I think he's still going to end up with, you know, a surprising amount of minutes. But I don't think you're slotting him into a guaranteed rotation role that you're committed to on the offset. I think he's kind of going to slot in because other people aren't quite ready to fill the roles are struggling, you know, otherwise. Whether you're talking about Ivy, whether you're talking about livers, whether you're talking about just putting them at power forward and figuring out what the team. can do. Yeah. Yeah, I am.

So I think there's sort of a conundrum in the starting lineup, though, at the very least. I mean, if Diallo is able to shoot, I think you just start him at small forward and put and put Bay of Power Gordon to call today. I think so. I think there are two potential lineups. I think the one that you postulated is one of those, though I think it's possible to put Kelly Olinick out there instead, instead of Bagley, who knows. But I think one lineup you could see if Ivy looks like he's ready is Caden Ivy in the back

court. And then Berks at small forward, because I think the pistons, or rather, Weaver and Casey, were very emphatic on how they want to have more shooting, including more shooting around Cade. And Ivy would benefit from that spacing as well. You have Burks at Small Forward. You put Baya Power forward. And then I would prefer it be Nervyn's Noel for the role presence. But I think Isaiah Stewart will just be given the starting role because he already has it. But I think there's a conundrum there, like between those two lineups. It's one of them as two little shooting. and the other one has no vertical space or enrollment. Yeah, and I think rebounding is an issue in both senses as well.

I think there's a lot of limitations they're going to be trying to work around. The big question, I hope, is, you know, the first question for every beatwriter, as the Pistons kind of open summer league and throughout the off season is, what do you see as Sidique Bay's primary role and who do you see as the power forward on this team? Maybe those answers are the same, but, like, those are my two biggest, question marks because I do see Bay as somebody who has some multi-positional value and maybe works best long term at power forward. I just don't know if the team sees that as the case.

And then if they do see him as a small forward primarily, then what this team envisions is their power forward rotation is a bit of a mystery to me. It could go in so many different directions. And I'm not going to say one is right and one is wrong. It's just like when they put this team together, what did they see as, you know, the primary power forward lineup as starter and then as the reserve? Because I think that's instructive as how they think this team kind of locks in place going forward. Yeah, I think you could easily end up with power forward.

And I think it deserves to be stipulated or noted that the Pistons will not be trying to win. So holes in, like, if they're a weak rebounding team, it's like it's not a huge deal. You just, you want to avoid certain things on the team that are just not working like fielding. a team that has weighty little shooting in the starting lineup. Yeah, it's kind of like whack-a-mole. It's like what fundamental critical issues are you willing to deal with because you've decided to plug a hole somewhere else. So like, do you want defense or do you want shooting?

Do you want shooting or do you want rebounding? Do you want playmaking or do you want something else? Like there's no one lineup that's going to be well-rounded. And so it's figuring out what the team is willing to live with. Yeah, absolutely true. Yeah, so I totally agree. Yeah, on this sort of team, you pick your poison, so to speak. In business, Jonah, just don't have a complete roster.

And one of those poisons you can pick, I mean, do you want to load the starting lineup of shooting? Or do you want to, and just have the bench, really risk having like two shooters? Or do you want to spread the bad shooting out? Because at this point, if you look at the questionable shooters in the roster, you have Ivy, who's a questionable shooter right now. Who knows? I think he'll get it together. You have Stuart, who's an unknown. I think he'll get it together.

Hayes is an unknown. Noel can't shoot. Diallo is an unknown. Knox, who probably won't see many minutes is whatever. We, who probably wouldn't say many minutes is whatever, but he can't shoot either. So you've just got a lot of, in Bagley, of course. You know, who knows if he's an unknown as a shooter. So you might have a team that's got a lot of bad shooters.

And I don't think you want to field a bench unit of like Hayes, Diallo, Bagley, Noel, and yeah, I don't know, like, let's say it's, it's a weavers in there. There is one more shooter or Olinick because Olinic can shoot. Like, the bench could legitimately get ugly in terms of shooting. I mean, I think what this roster has made plain is that it's going to be ugly, period. Like, there's going to be ugly moments in the starting lineup. They're going to be ugly moments in the bench lineup. So it's like, I think they might just supercharge the bench with athleticism and just,

let the chips fall and try and front load that that starting unit with some shooting just to make it palatable. And so, you know, I think they're probably going to look at livers as their primary perimeter thread off the bench and then just load up on athleticism and see what happens. And then does that mean you've put Olinic on the starting lineup? Doesn't mean you're putting them on the bench to kind of be that secondary shooter as well. Who knows? Because, like, if you don't have Olinic in the starting lineup, you really are limiting yourself to just a couple of shooters. Because I think one of the players maybe you didn't mention is an iffy perimeter threat is Cade.

Like, I believe in the shooting long term, but you did not convert at a high level. And so this is just going to be an ugly, ugly year, I think, for this team's offense. And you're just trying to see glimpses of what all these players can become. And you're hoping that the lack of shooting and efficient offense doesn't hamstring their actual development as players, because I think that could become an issue as well. Yeah. Yeah, you want to ideally not bring these guys up, even the young guys in an offense that has no spacing. It's no spacing rather. That's a big problem.

We saw what happened with Cabe last year. I think Cabe will get it together. I mean, this was kind of a blip for him after how strong he was as a shooter at Oklahoma State. and yeah, I just, I think he'll get it together. I think last season, I don't know why it was rough. He was definitely extremely inconsistent as a three-point shooter, even after his overall play improved. But, yeah, I think the Pissons are just, you know,

hoping to goodness that Hayes improves as a shooter and that either Bagley or Diallo can get it together. Olinick is the interesting one because you've basically got to kick somebody out if you want to get Olinic in there, be that DLO. I don't think Corey Joseph is going to really play unless somebody gets injured and I think he's fine with that. But I would see them maybe running out to line up, like a bench lineup of like assuming it's,

I think it's sort of interchangeable in the starting lineup. You've got those three guys, Ivy Berks and Bagley. I mean, those are two of those guys will be in the starting lineup. But even if you're running a bench unit of, let's say, Hayes, Livers, Olinick, I don't know, maybe Diallo. Wait, because you've got to fit Bagley in there somewhere. I don't know. This is just where it gets ugly.

Yeah, it's, yeah. I think it's, are you building the starting unit because you have a specific bench unit in mind? Or do you just sort of build a primary starting unit and let the chips fall where they may with that bench unit? I don't know. But it's going to be a not, it's not going to be pretty from an offensive perspective. And, you know, we'll just see if athleticism can kind of help be a salve. over those primary shortcomings. And then also, I think as you mentioned,

there are players who long term, they have shots who the team thinks will develop, whether it's livers, Cade. I think they're invested in Hayes right now. He has a long way to go. I think they're invested in Stewart right now. He has a long way to go. But like, sometimes it just clicks into place.

And so if they can just take one of these guys and they kind of have a shot that's ahead of schedule. I think it does a lot to mitigate some of these concerns. But I don't think you can ever bank on any 22-year-old player, 21-year-old player being a 45% shooter from three or even a 40% shooter from three. And so it's just going to be sort of a grit your teeth and just let them play through these growing pains.

And hopefully next year, you have a much better sense of what you need. you have a much better sense of what you have and these players have, you know, developed shots that are more consistent going forward by the end of the season. Yeah. Livers, I think, showed us shooting very well at the U of Ammons and was promising last season in limited time.

So I think he can provide that at least. I mean, bag me... I'm almost... I'm afraid I'm banking too much of this team's offensive competency on a second year, second round draft pick, but like... Right.

Livers just seems such like a play. and play competent person that, you know, he could be really somebody that unlocks the bench unit and unlocks the offense to a degree. But I think it's just unfair of me to put those kind of expectations on him. So I'm fully prepared for him to show what he showed last year and then taking that next step. And I'm also fully prepared for him to just have a sophomore slump and not really have it together. And both versions are okay because what he showed last year is just somebody worth investing in for a number of years. So

hopefully his game just continues to develop. Yeah. Yeah, I hope so. I think he's going to be a reliable role player for years to come. I mean, who knows about in certain postseason and whatever that is postseason situations, I think kind of is sort of slow feet. They make him a little bit of a liability.

Like I give him he's up against a super quick lineup, but that's years in the future. Yeah, it's just like the rotation is so bloated, kind of. it's going to be very difficult to find a significant number of minutes. If all of these players are healthy, it's going to be difficult to find a significant number of minutes for all of them. So yeah, definitely, even amongst that list of likelihoods, which I will say the guys who are almost certain to get minutes,

Kate, of course, Berks, Taze, Stewart, whatever, you guys on to the list. There will be a couple of the young players who just there will be no minutes for. That would be, like Diallo might not get minutes. Wivers might not get minutes. Olinick, who knows, you know, it's just, it's going to be, if it gets really ugly in terms of shooting,

we could see the rotation kind of turning over a couple of times during the season. Yeah, I mean, I think that it could get so ugly that Corey Joseph is like a break glass in case of emergency, competent three point threat that fans will again see much more of than they were hoping for. But sometimes you just need that kind of. of player because the other younger guys just aren't delivering in the way you'd hoped. And we'll see.

I mean, this team is a 25 to 30 win team probably comfortably. You know, you could add or subtract a couple on either end. It's just going to be another rebuilding year. And you just hope kind of to create a situation where some players are figuring things out. Yeah. It's, yeah, 30 wins. I mean, 30 wins would be seven more than last year. I mean, the Pistons managed to grind their way up to 33.

I mean, it's a significant improvement. And the league will probably be getting a little bit more difficult. I mean, the number of outright tankers this season may be very low. And I mean, honestly, for my part, I hope that by, I know we're still, goodness, like four months, three months away from the season, even from preseason. But yeah, I'd rather not find the Pistons find themselves in that sort of stressful end of season, like pray for the team to lose situation. But we'll see.

But it's like just so difficult to predict what this really. rotation could look like because any guys doing a little bit better, doing a little bit worse could mean a significant loss of minutes for other players. Yeah, and I think that sometimes these things just sort themselves out because you might see a young player who showed that they're not quite ready for prime time. You might see veterans that are struggling through injury. I could see a situation where they just kind of sit Olinic because they want him to be healthy and an off-season where he might find himself a free agent. Maybe players play themselves off the roster through trades because they were really good

or because they just got thrown in because there's obviously no future. It's just another sort of year of development and not being quite settled. And that's fine. This is going to be a team that's figuring things out. And then hopefully by this season is all about have you received answers to a couple key questions going into an important offseason? where you want to make some of those longer-term investments. Because all these young players are going to be extension eligible.

Maybe some of them get it. Maybe some of them don't. And then also they want to invest some money in free agency before some of those bills come due. So it's all about figuring out what you need going forward. Right. And yeah, like you said, very much a developmental season. We both said it wouldn't anticipate it necessarily being much cleaner than last season was. All right.

So finally, let's move on. on to a summer league preview. And we plan to do a longer segment about this, but really there's not a ton to talk about it. It's pretty much we don't know how many minutes the veterans will play. And beyond that, just go out there and have fun watching the Pistons, young players play and try not to draw too many conclusions as a result. Yeah, I mean, I think this Pistons team with those veterans,

maybe they throw them out there just to kind of make a statement that this is our young core we want to put them on the floor together whether that's for one game it could be for zero games i think every sort of quote unquote veteran young player on the roster probably plays exactly the same amount so you're not going to see you know k plays zero games and then kill and play four i think it's kind of a statement of purpose and then otherwise for the pistons it's all about you know Ivy and Duren being these supremely athletic players that can get their feet wet and hopefully, you know, just deliver some highlights because that's what Summer League is for. Just insane dunks that, you know, trend on Twitter. And that's like the highest possible upside you can have as a young team because I'm not exactly concerned about them playing for the Summer League championship in Vegas.

Yeah. Yeah. Don't draw too many conclusions for Summer League. as always my advice to anyone. It's a very, very different game. Teams don't really play defense. They don't really play a coach style and so on and so forth. Some players who go on to be very good.

We'll struggle in summer league. Some players who go on to be very bad, we'll do well in summer league. And there's the additional, like, not I wouldn't say sort of boring, but the pistons are completely full at this point. 15 to 15 roster spots. Both two-way spots,

you'll see Buddy Bohem play. And who knows, here, Rex and Key could be cut loose and replaced with somebody else. but who knows. So yeah, it's like you said, Sean. Just go out and have fun watching hopefully big dunks and other fun stuff happen. All right, folks. So that'll be it for today's episode.

And thanks, John, for joining the show today. Yeah, thanks for having me. It was fun to figure out what the hell this team is going to be all about. Yeah, definitely. I feel like I thought it might be a longer conversation about how the team's going to come together. But basically it's like it will shake itself out as it does. Yeah, it's like the pistons are the shrug emoji personified. Like, if you have the answers, I'm more than welcome to hear it

because I don't really have answers about what this team is other than a collection of interesting parts. Yeah, and your goal in the next several seasons is to go from the shrug emoji to the 100 emoji. Yeah, and they've got time. So just enjoy it while we build. Yeah. All right, so, yeah, as I say at the end of every episode, If you enjoyed this or if you enjoyed previous episodes, consider following the podcast on Twitter to the BasketPod.

And as always, folks, thanks for listening. Catch you next time.