Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 109: Summer League Recap & Next Season’s Potential Lineups (With Jack Kelly of Detroit Bad Boys and HoopsHabit)

Episode Date: July 20, 2022

This episode, featuring guest Jack Kelly of Detroit Bad Boys and HoopsHabit, recaps the team's Summer League and goes in-depth on potential starting lineups for next season.

Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to Drive into the Basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike, joined today by Jack Kelly, writer for Detroit Bad Boys.com and hoops habit, Jack. Thanks so much for joining the show today. Thanks for having me on, Mike. Looking forward to talking some Pistons Hoops, some Summer League stuff, and yeah, let's go. Absolutely. So as my esteemed guest here has no other here to talk about Summer League, to be talking about takeaways, what we saw. And we'll follow that up with some hypothetical lineups, you know, for what the starting line up might look like next season, what the rotation might look like. And I feel like, Jack, before we get in the summer league, it deserves a certain disclaimer as to how much we should actually take away from it. So summer league is fun to watch. And I feel like you can take some takeaways away from it. And I just said away three times in the space of about two seconds. But in the end, kind of like glorified pickup, very different from the NBA. So wouldn't take too much away from it.

But we can still have fun watching it. And there are still some things I think we can take away from it. So yeah, why don't we just hit it off? We can start with the least interesting guy because he only played one game and that would be Killian Hayes. So what did you see? I think we saw from Killian what Killian is right now, what he was last season. I think I was disappointed and get more shots up.

But he was just Killian. He made some nice reads, defended well, found Duran in transition a couple of times, didn't really shoot, made a catch and shoot three. I think he scored five points in that game. Attempted a step back or a sidestep three, which looked better but missed. And I think ultimately, I mean, coming into Summer League, the coaching staff, it was meant to be a big, I guess, week or two for Killian. And then we obviously saw him for a game.

And I think, as he just stated in the open there, like, it's hard to really take a lot away from summer league typically though coming in as a I know it's his second summer league but he's entering his third season you would have liked to have seen him you know get a few more shots up um create a bit more um but i mean yeah it's just the killian we know and i think yeah i would have liked to see more but yeah it's the killian we know and we've seen and yeah yeah definitely i was surprised as well they didn't get more run just because the guy has so much to work on i feel like not really a ton to take away i would have liked to see him jet into the interior more aggressively more decisively which he's got to do needless to say at the NBA level but

i don't think we ever heard about why he only played one game yeah well i definitely don't think we ever heard and i think just with what you said on the driving into the middle into the paint I think ultimately that's the thing we've been wanting to see from Killian since he entered the league was some aggression. And I still don't think we saw that in that one summer league game. And that's what I always, like there's always the numbers, the shooting numbers, but I'm always looking for if he's going to be aggressive in this game and his mentality. Because I think that's the main thing for him. He's a confidence player. I think he has the skill, but he's such a confidence player.

that's something as well we didn't really see a whole lot of in that one game. Yeah. Yeah. So that was Killian. Only one game. And yeah, well, next time we'll see him. We'll be in preseason. Next time we'll see any of these guys be in preseason.

So on to the other point guard, Samin Wee, who I feel had a pretty dark, disappointing performance. Yeah, I agree. I think apart from getting to the line, I think he shot like 11 free throws one game, something like that. But yeah. the jumper is, I think he actually made a couple of threes and he finished shooting 33%. But it's just, it will never look good.

Like it is one of the roughest forms. And then on top of that, yeah, he just over-dribbles. I feel like he can distribute a little bit, but it's mainly just drive and kick. He's normally just looking to get to the cup and score that, yeah, at times, and on Twitter, fans are frustrated with him over-dribbling, and I do get that. I do get that. And, like, I saw some memes going around of Sabin, which I had to look a way at. But I think, yeah, he just has a tendency to over-dribble, and he's not the best distributor.

And when you're only six-foot-two, maybe three, don't have much of a jumper. It's going to be tough for you to exist in an NBA offense. Yeah, I just saw more. the same from Sabin, really. I think that he had four sort of big games in his rookie season that made that season look a lot better than it was. And he had his issues back then. He was playing third string point guard for one of the worst teams in the league.

And in any case, last season I felt like he was awful. And he came in, it was just more of the same against pretty poor opposition. It's worth noting the guy shot like 31% from the field. He did take a ton of free throws that he's not going to get in the NBA. but his second round pick and a guy like you said yeah like you said the shot is ugly like Zach Will makes reference to Chris Boucher three-point shot is the Trebuche because of how it you know how it starts behind his head Sabins looks more like a catapult to me it's super ugly and it doesn't go in it's so it it's got it's flat and it's so like it's stiff he doesn't get much

elevation it's just and when he does a step back I think he made a step back three So honestly, like, the rest of the guys on the court must be like, how is that going in? But yeah. And like you said, you touched on, he's a second round pick. These guys normally don't pan out. It's all about, and like, even you could even say with lottery picks like with Killian, like after his first season, I think we're all aware of, okay, he's not going to be. You could see the writing on the wall, but it's about adjusting expectations.

And you couldn't have had, you'd be wrong to come into some league with high. expectations for Saban Lee, and I wish him the best. But yeah, like he said, he's a third string point guard. And that will be his place in the league. Yeah, if he can stay. I mean, like at the NBA level with Saban, so he's athletic, but he's not functionally athletic. I feel like he's a guy, he just can't really elevate at the rim despite his excellent vertical. And so he tends to score really below the rim, sort of like Tyrese Maxie, but he doesn't have that incredible quickness that lets Tyrese maxi score below the rim with like inches to spare. That's a great point actually.

Yeah, so he has trouble driving at the NBA level. He can't shoot. I don't feel like his instincts in terms of his core division, his ability to run an offense instead of his teammates are very good at all. And as you said, he's undersized. So. Yeah. I'll tell you what, we'd love to, if he's, that he's in the NBA number,

I'd love to have him down here in the NBA in Australia. I would take him in a heartbeat. Fantastic. Yeah, I mean, the guy would have. the G League, but the G League doesn't play defense. He can burn anybody off the dribble there for the most part. Yeah. And once you come into the NBA and you're playing against the best in the world, just doesn't stick. Do you think he's with the Pistons on opening night? I think, and I know James Edwards noted in, I think his most recent piece over at the athletic. I still think there's a

move to come. And it mainly revolves around that big rotation, but I think any move to come, I can't see the team. I think we have four point guards. Yes. Four point guards in Killian, Kay, Corey Joseph, and Sabinley. That's right. So, yeah, I can't see us entering the season with four. So I don't know.

I'm 50-50. Yeah, I would be surprised if he's still on the roster. I felt like he was playing with a sort of desperation, like holding out of the ball way too much and trying to force things that maybe suggests he's aware that his future is not. not, of course, any, no player is going to think that their future is certain. But being aware that his future, even next season is very much in doubt. Of course, he only got to play like one and a half games before he hurt his foot.

But yeah, so that's saving. Who knows? Maybe someday. Did you see that injury? Because I just saw him in the next game and he had a boot on his left or right ankle. No, no, I didn't see it. Yeah, I don't think anyone really did. Yeah.

So anyway. Yeah, it was right after. everybody had gotten over their disappointment or maybe gotten over their disappointment of jaden ivy being gone and it's like everyone would probably turn the game off there's that and those rest were still watching we're like okay man we're going to have to watch saving for a few games but at least we've got kind of like a sort of slightly NBA caliber guy here and then he gets hurt too exactly yeah but yeah as far as you said about another move i mean the pistons if my calculations are correct have about seven and a half million in space.

And Kemba's still on the active roster. He still hasn't been bought out. I noticed that. Yeah. So if he's bought out, I think you can expect, so it was said anyway, that he'll give back a million or two. Or it could be used to facilitate a trade somehow. So who knows, maybe a move is coming.

I agree, though. I don't think Saban will be with the team. I'd come the beginning of the season. All right. So let's move on to somebody more interesting. So why don't we start with Isaiah? Leo Livers. So what did you see from him? I really enjoyed what I saw from Isaiah.

I think that he only played two games from memory. And I think, first of all, I didn't realize he could get up in transition like he did for that block. That was insane. And I think, and I know it's just a block, but he seems to be a bit more athletic than I initially thought. Or from what, I didn't really watch him at Michigan. and we didn't really see much of him as a rookie. So I really liked his activity on the defensive end. And I think he has great potential just to be a great team defender.

On ball, I liked what I saw. And then on offense, the shooting is real. I think we've known that from, like we saw that his rookie season. That's what he was known for coming out of the draft. He has a beautiful jumper. I love watching him shoot. and then we even saw him hit a couple of mid-range jumpers. I think one was in the post, turn around.

And yeah, look, he's probably never going to be an on-ball creator. I think that'll be a stretch. But I think he's a really valuable piece, and we'll probably get into this later with the line-ups. But I think what we saw from him at Summer League sort of validates what he did last season as a rookie in the sense that I think he should be a part of the rotation from day one. I've heard rumblings of him being a starter, which I'm open to. But yeah, I think he's an NBA player.

He's an NBA wing. And I think he's a great find in the second round from Troy Weaver. Yeah, I think it was San Bacini. He said that his intel was that livers would have gotten some first round looks in the 2021 draft, which is a very strong draft, if not for his injury. I agree, NBA player. I think that he'll be a strong shooter. He's also got a really high release.

that's nice, not an easily blockable shot. And who just makes the right decisions? I feel like he's one of those players you can count on to just make the right move, whether it's the right pass on offense, just the right decisions on defense. And I think he'll be a solid glue guy. And I'm not sure about starter potential. Like you said, I think he's going to have some limits. And that's fine.

He doesn't need to be an on-bill creator. I think the mobility might not be ideal for the starting lineup. But I think he'll be a good role player for a long time. Yeah, I definitely agree. I really didn't have expectations at all for him, mainly because he was injured and we didn't see. Like, I loved what I saw from him last season. And, yeah, I think we've just got a really nice player in Isaiah. And as you said, he's just, he's a he's a heady player.

You can tell he's got a high basketball IQ. I know that gets thrown around a lot. But I really, he just seems to have a great now, great rotating on defense. And I just feel like he'd be a great communicator on the court, which all that stuff is extremely valuable. Yeah, so solid glue guy. Definitely. It was fun watching him play. We didn't see a ton of him last season, but I really liked what I saw.

So, and let's move on. And I'm going to leave Isaiah Stewart here for last because I think we can have a pretty extended discussion about him. So we could get a couple of the less relevant guys out of the way here also when I said that Killiam was the most boring. With all respect, the Bragston Key, it's pretty boring player. And what you just? think of Braxton, I mean, in the context also, what we saw last season.

I think Braxton, who we're having a conversation before, is just an extremely average player. But I do think there's a spot for him on this roster because I think we've got five bigs on my depth chart, five to six guards, and then the only wings I have are Livers, Bay, and off top of my head, that's all. So if we already had livers miss all of last season, or sorry, the majority of last season with an injury, who used to say we're not going to get injuries this season. So I think he's, you know, on a two-way contract, he's a great,

what did I write down here? Break glass in case of emergency wink. So, I mean, I think he was solid in the summer league. He actually, I was looking at the numbers earlier. He averaged two steals and a block a game. that doesn't necessarily mean you're an amazing defender but I was surprised by that activity he got to the line a little bit um shot the three okay he's got another another one of those funky jump shots that like has a bit of a hitch in it so I'm not sure I want to see that a whole lot

in the regular season but I'm okay with him being a two-way guy um I think we need a wing he's got decent athleticism. I feel like he can stay in front of the more athletic wings. But yeah, as you mentioned, I don't have high expectations. And yeah, he's just there to fill any injury gaps, in my opinion. Yeah, I feel like if you can get a shot together and become a decent shooter, which I don't think it'll be better than a decent shooter, but we'll see. But in that case, you've got kind of like a very, very, very,

standard like, you know, like disappears in plain sight sort of player. Yeah. Who is, you know, who's got decent size, decent length, decent athleticism, he plays decent defense, and maybe gives you some decent shooting. Of course, by the standards of the NBA, it's probably a little bit below average at all, you know, did really anything on the court. But like you said, could break less in case of emergency guy. Yeah, I think, yeah, he's just, he's a decent play finisher.

I think he averaged three turnovers, so you don't really want. the ball in his hands. You don't want him creating anything. You want him cutting, maybe hanging around the dunker spot if his man falls asleep. You just, yeah, he's a great, I don't know, third, fourth string wing. That makes sense. And the other two-way guy, Buddy Beheim. Look, so there was the two, buddy and his brother, I forgot his brother's name.

There's obviously a connection there between, I think, Troy Weaver used to be an assistant at Syracuse. So I think there's a bit of a family ties might be the wrong terminology. But it sounds like, yeah, buddy, I think at Syracuse, I looked at his numbers. He's a really high volume three-point shooter. He was shooting seven a game across his four-year career at 36% clip. So he's one of those high volume sort of not above 40% shooters. And then he's a bit disappointing, to be honest.

I think his release is pretty quick. but at Summer League, yeah, he's shot, I think, just under 32%. So if he's not shooting in the high 30s on decent volume, I don't know how he gets on an NBA court. He doesn't have much lift. He's not a decent size, I guess, but yeah, I can't see him defending anyone or staying in front of anyone. So, yeah, unless he's shooting up around 40%,

if he can get to that, yeah, I'm a bit questionable with that signing. Yeah, it's like you said, in terms of the connection with Syracuse. I think it was not so much a favor, maybe to Beheim, but that definitely played a part, and I'd be surprised if he's one of the two-way guys come to the beginning of the season. I feel like two-way contracts. Yeah, two-way contracts for one of two things.

Number one, they just have depth at a position where you wouldn't otherwise have it. It's not like maybe Braxton Key. And number two, guys who, yeah, guys who are, really on the periphery and you want to have them under team control and you hope that they develop into something like there have been some decent two-way guys to come into the league like Duncan Robinson Max Struz Alex Caruso, Lou Dort and it's rare but it happens and buddy I don't think really fits either of those yeah and I hope I didn't come out as if I was insinuating it was a favor I think it was I was trying to say that he was a great college player but

I don't know. I just saw some stuff in Stanley Amouda, I think it was. I actually really liked what I saw from him. And I don't know. I just think there could be some better options there to take a shot on with the two way. Yeah. Well, just to clarify, I think it was a combination of the two things. You know, a fairly good college player and a favor. You know, like we'll give him a shot and we'll see how it looks. I think that helps. I think that on that. Yeah. Yeah. Moodee, yeah, who knows. I mean, but I've got to think that the second two way guy the pistons will carry in the next season is a really raw upside guy well last season um luka was on a two-way and then we converted him and yeah there was our other two-way christmas and but it was smith and gaza and then because of the way picket played i think they converted

lucca to a minimum contract and picket got that second two-way yeah yeah chris smith was that upside guy who was believed would have gone on the first rounds if he had not torn his aco he He did Tara's ACL, and yeah, poor guy came back, played, you know, was still playing his way back in his shape, and then I think Torres ACL again. That's right, because we got a glimpse of him in the G-League, and there was this highlight going around. I think it was a step back three,

and everyone was losing their minds. I remember. Yeah. Yeah, poor guy. Yeah, it's tough luck. It's how it goes sometimes. That's tough. And yeah.

Okay, so moving on, Jaden Ivy. Of course, everybody wants to talk about Jaden Ivy. Yeah, I'm a bit surprised. We're surprised we didn't lead off with Jaden, but I think how exciting is it? And I posted a highlight. There's a highlight of him in the third quarter of the first game where he just splits the pick and roll and like bursts to the cup. And I've been a Pistons fan since 2012.

And I think some people mentioned Reggie Jackson used to do that, Derek Rose maybe, but there's just having a guard like that on our roster who's going to be around for the foreseeable future is just, I know there's plenty of holes in his game, but the athleticism is as advertised. It's what we knew. He's, him and Doreen are probably the best athletes in the draft. And, yeah, I think his first game, he had some Jaden Ivy like turnovers, some young like turnovers, trying to throw cross-court passes from one side of the three point line to

the other. They got picked off. But I think once he settled. down in that second half of the first game, you really saw what we have and a player that's going to bend defenses and just attack it will. And he did game one, he pretty much did all his scoring in transition apart from the couple of three pointers. And then it was really nice in the, I think he only played six or seven minutes in game two.

I think five minutes. Yeah, five minutes. And I actually just rewatched it this morning and all 11 of those points came in half court set. So five of them were off free throws, but they were all off high ball screens, whether it was Isaiah Stewart or livers setting the screen, showed some patience and he hit the step back three and then he had a couple of a lefty finish. So it was really nice to see him do some stuff in half court because that's the major question

mark with Jaden, is that in between game and half court creation. We all know what he can do in transition and it's electric. but it was really nice to see him. And it's a shame we didn't get to see him play the rest of that second game. But I'm feeling good about Jane Nivey. Yeah, I mean, he was in five minutes, ten points. I mean, just play him, you know, play him about 25 minutes, to score a 50 point game.

Not really. No, it didn't, unlikely, but yeah, it was fun to watch. I agree he was really trying to find his, let me find his legs, but he was trying to adjust going in the first game where he was just having trouble getting into the interior. And he got some of it done in the second half, particularly close to the end of the game. And then, yeah, of course, in game two is much more decisive and was getting into the interior easily, you know, and a couple times you tried before the injury. So definitely, I'd say a top 10 athlete in the NBA.

Most athletic guy, the pistons have fielded. And goodness knows how long. Well, I'll say it's a decade since I've been following the team. I'm not sure about you, but for me, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I was watching as early as 2004, but not really very closely. And then I kind of fell off because I was more of a casual fan back then after a chance he got traded and he went into that dark period. Yeah, I'm trying to think.

Not to get off topic. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, I was just going to say, not to get off topic. But if you want to hear something depressing, I became a thing. fan. I said to myself in the 2012 draft, whoever drafts Andre Drum and I'm going to follow that team. When I tell that story to people, they just think there's something wrong with me. But, yeah, I was a vicious Andre Stan for a while there, but once I realized how the NBA game works a few years ago, I quickly altered my perception of Dre. I, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I thought okay of the guy for, you know, I came back to the Pistons around the end of 2014 after Josh Smith was shown the door. And I was okay with Andre for about two and a half seasons, well, two seasons, call it that until I got tired of him. And then after a couple more seasons, I was finished. I'm nothing but contempt for the guy now. Yeah, yeah. I always knew his effort was a question mark. And then once I started to understand analytics, I was all the way out. Yeah, I hear you.

So in any case, yeah, I mean, he himself is pretty darned athletic. But when it comes to, when it comes to guards, when it comes to interior, choose me perimeter players. Yeah, Jaden Ivy, definitely the most athletic guy the pistons have had in a long time. Derek Rose still good athlete with the pistons, not like this. Reggie Jackson. So I feel like Reggie Jackson just gets a bad rep, which I don't think is entirely warranted. I think a lot of it was because of injuries, though he did have kind of a massive ego for the first

a couple seasons with the team. He did grow up and he was a model teammate by the end. But he was pretty darned athletic when he first came to Detroit. He was. Yeah. Another fun fact, not as athletic as Ivy, but he was. Another fun fact, Reggie Jackson is about 6-2 with a 7-foot wingspan. That's insane.

It's insane. Yeah. And he's just probably not as fluid as an athlete as Jaden, but he could get up for dunks. Like, he was exciting before all those, I don't know if they were ankle injuries or whatever. That was neat. Yeah, so he had chronic knee tendonitis. He'd had that issue of Boston College. And then prior to the 2016-2017 season, he had to have plate what rich plasma therapy.

I don't remember what it's called. And whatever the case was with his knee, he never came back from it. That was the whole is Smith first Reggie Jackson. Who should start to back. Yeah, exactly. Anyway. Yeah. So, all right, back to Ivy.

Yeah, incredibly athletic. I mean, he's just an incredible fast switch athlete. And it was fun watching and play. I mean, a small sample size. I'll come back to the end, you know, come into the NBA. I liked how he was focusing on setting up teammates. I think he was really pointed in that direction, of course,

by the coaching staff, but he was definitely doing it enthusiastically. And, yeah, NBA's a different beast. We'll see how he does, but it was fun to watch. Well, I think the last thing I'll say on Ivy is, what I saw from him at Summer League is, like, scalable to the NBA. Like, everything he did in transition, like, that should all translate.

I can see him because I had questions on, I've just been throwing around, you know, sort of numbers. I think he'll average and I was a bit lower on the scoring side initially. But after seeing him sort of, and as you touched on, like Summer League, it's Summer League. But, yeah, I think all that transition stuff we saw paired alongside Cade. I think, yeah, I think he can average, I don't know, around 15 points a game. And the one thing I loved was that, that opening play of. game one, setting him a pin down in the corner, just getting him, yeah, getting him in a position

to be downhill. That will help him in spades. And then obviously he hit Duran for the LAU. But if, if Dwayne Casey and the coaching staff can set him up like that more often during the season, I think that will go a long way to just making him a bit more efficient, getting his confidence up, getting him the looks that he likes. And yeah, the three, the three, point shot. It is a bit of a set shot, but he also did hit a step back, but it's not the quickest, but if he can, it looked okay. Like it looked, it looked like he'll be an average NBA shooter to start with. So yeah, that's probably my final thoughts. Yeah, it's like I noted, as is as many episodes ago in the draft reviews. I mean, he took a lot of really unnecessarily

difficult threes in college, which probably drove down his percentage. It'll be on a much healthier shot diet in the NBA. I just hope the consistency is there. But yeah, that first play in game one was a lot of fun. Definitely to see, to see the two drafties connect right off the, you know, for an L. U right off the bat. It was fun. And I do regret that we didn't get to see him versus Mathron. I think that would have been a fun matchup. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, they were my two guys in the draft really. Mathrim is kind of my 1A versus Ivy, my 1B. Of course, I'm all on on Ivy now because he's with the team. Yeah. No, I'm at that's a year. interesting because I think, yeah, I think I was, I was Ivy and then Mathron, but I also didn't

mind the idea of Keegan Murray. But, yeah, I think I was extremely happy to get Ivy, to be honest. Like when the draft was going down, we did a live show and yeah, that was that was the guy wanted. So I was happy to see him produce the way he did at Summer League. Yeah, I believe you had a drink of scotch at like 6 o'clock in the morning. to celebrate that pick, didn't you? It was 10 a.m. It's 10 a.m. I said to the guys, I go, if we draft Avi, I'm cracking a beer.

Because they were all drinking, but obviously it was a more appropriate time. But, yeah, I had, because I took the morning off from work. So if we get Avi, I'm cracking a drink. And then, yeah, I wouldn't recommend it, that's for sure. But it was worth it. Yeah. You're talking to a guy who's never had a drink before, like, 5 o'clock in the evening. So, yeah.

Yeah, I was happy with the pick. I mean, I was definitely primed to be happy with the pick because this didn't take Murray, but I was going to be happy if it was Ivy or Mathrin. Yeah. Yeah. So on to the other drafting, and I'm saving Isaiah Stewart for last because I feel like that'll be a great segue into the lineups conversation. So let's talk Jalen Duren, who had some good and had some, you know, stuff he needs to work on.

For sure. I think that's a great way to put it. I think Jalen, Duran, if you just watch the whole, highlights was outstanding. And I think the athletic, like, I feel like I'm saying the word athleticism. I'm using it too often, but to get, yeah, I think it's something this team has missed for a long time. And I've seen some, some comparisons of Duran to Andre Dramand. And I think they're very different. Like, I get the comparison, but I think they're very different. I think Duran's even a different type of athlete, to be honest.

And he's just, the fact he's 18 years old just bewilders me. Like, I don't know how 18-year-olds like him exists. I wish I had that body tight. But back to what matters. I think, yeah, I think he's the rim protection, paint protection, he's going to provide this team is something that we sorely missed. And like, I don't. I don't expect he'll feature heavily in the rotation to start next season,

but I think I would like to see, I'm not sure about him as a switch defender. I think his physical tools more lend to him playing drop, and then Summer League I think he was forced to switch a bit more often than I would like. And look, he did okay with it, but I can't wait to see him in a drop coverage defense where the Pistons just funnel opposing guards towards the rim to meet J. on Durand. But yeah, I think he's, from day one, he'll be able to roll in the pick and roll and score on lobs, provide some vertical spacing.

And I loved how hardly ran in transition. That was another thing that I noted. And yeah, he's just a powerful athlete. He can just sky for dunks and swat shots into the stands. Probably on the negative side, he was a bit foul prone. I think he was up to around nearly for a game. And I think we saw in that third game when. he was essentially the only rotation guy playing.

There's not much shot creation there. He's not going to get your bucket. And I think he did make one post-post play. And it went in, but it was pretty rough. So, yeah, I think he's your typical rim running big, but there's some potential there to be one of the best defensive players in the league. I'm high in his defensive potential. I'm also still high in a switch potential.

I mean, like you said, the guy's only 18. I mean, it's amazing how much of a refined product he is, physically speaking. And yeah, that's definitely impressive. And I don't think, unfortunately, I don't think he's the kind of, has the kind of body that's likely to grow any further even though he's only 18. Because he's clearly grown into his body, to say the least. It's actually insane. Definitely.

So, yeah, it was happy with the defense. and was happy with the vertical spacing. I mean, I think we've all been primed to be happy with vertical spacing because the business doesn't have any of it last season until middle of February. But I think he'll be good for that. And yeah, the downsides are what I expected. Like, his touch around the basket isn't very good if he's not dunking it. He can kind of become a non-factor if he doesn't have people to get him involved

more so than you would like for a traditional big. Like, if you want those traditional bigs just running around, you know, maniacally trying to do whatever they can on offense. and then also on defense the rebounding. I feel like the motor just wasn't too good there. Not a defense in general, just on rebound. I'm glad you brought up the rebounding because there was actually, I think there was at least two instances where he didn't box out on an opponent's free throw

and they got the ball back. And you normally don't see that. That's extremely rare in the NBA for a big man to give up opposing rebounds at the free throw line. So that the boxing out and rebounding as a whole is something I'll be watching very closely. Yeah. And I mean, there were concerns, the concerns over his motor that were brought up, you know, his motor in his time at Memphis. We're not about, oh, this is a lazy player. It's about stuff like being involved on offense when things slow down or when his teammates aren't getting him involved. Or, yeah, on defense, are you working hard on boxouts? Are you really fighting for

position. And the answer to both of those things in terms of summer league was no. Am I concerned? No, it's just the guy's going to need to change how he does things a bit, especially because those things are going to be even more difficult at the NBA level. For sure. And one other thing, just to note, he did shoot 73% from the free throw throw line. So I think he was low 60s at Memphis. So I don't think he took heaps of free throws, but it was nice to see him hit his free throws because that's something that if that becomes a weakness in his game, will keep him off the floor potentially. Yeah.

Yeah, that's definitely. Not that we're in the Hacker Dre days, but still, you want your bigs if they can hit free throws, it's important. Absolutely. Yeah, there aren't really any of those guys left. Guys who, I mean, maybe they're one or two, but I mean, we're talking like significant guys on respectable teams,

guys who can't shoot free throws. I'm having trouble thinking of any. I mean, there's Ben Simmons, but that's a different story. Yeah. And yeah, that's pretty much gone. Yeah, so you can't shoot low 60s in the NBA. Yeah, he's got to improve.

The skill level as a whole in the league's just insane right now. Oh, yeah. I feel like there's probably five years ago you could go around and pick five guys who couldn't shoot free throws at an average level or at a baseline level. So the skill levels right now is incredible. Yeah, definitely. I mean, and always players have had to adapt. And some of them have ended up out of the league because they can't adapt the amount of change over the past seven years,

like since the Warriors really kicked off the spacing and efficiency era has really been something else. I remember watching the 2015 playoffs. I don't know if you watched the series between the Clippers and the Rockets where just the hack, hack a player between DeAndre Jordan and Dwight Howard. It was awful. I mean, it was all Kevin McHale doing it. You know, this was a strategy this, but it was terrible. And you never see that because these guys just don't really. really exist anymore.

No, I think in that same season, or maybe it was a season after, Andre is Pistons in Houston, and they would have had Dwight at the time. It was just hacker drum and hack a guy. Yeah, Hacker Dwight. And I think Andre took like 30 free throws. Yeah, and made like 14, like, or something like that. And yeah, it's still one. It's hard to get you.

Yeah, I'm very happy we don't have to watch that anymore. Oh, no, it's awful. Yeah. All right, so we'll move on to the last guy. This is Isaiah Stewart. It was basically out there just to shoot threes and try to play power forward on defense. And he shot, he shot well, small, you know, little volume. He shot 55% on nine threes.

It was nice to see. And on defense, I felt like things didn't really go quite as well, even against Summer League opposition. That's interesting. So you, so you miss me in terms of switching and, yeah, what were you sort of saying? So I was seeing that, so here's how I feel about Isaiah. I think he's a very strong interior defender. Like he's a high level of rim protector. He's a top-notch pain protector.

He's excellent on switches. Like his only weaknesses at center on defense or the fact that he can't really play helpside grim protection because he's a, you know, he's just a bad jumper. And he's not explosive at all. And he's undersized. And he can struggle, he can't defend lobs for that same reason. Yeah. And he can struggle against guys who are taller and more athletic who can just rebound and score over him.

But for the most part, he's a very good defender. When you make him play it power forward, you take him away from those strengths because he's no longer just patrolling the paint. He's no longer defending the rim as the primary defender. And also, his foot speed is not good. I mean, Isaiah's mobility in terms of lateral mobility on switches is quite good. But his actual mobility in terms of running places is bad. And I feel like he was put into positions where he had to really close out

a three point line cover ground on the interior on the dash and he got places late and I think that accounted for him following and following, excuse me, an enormous amount like he had eight fouls in one game. Yeah, he's up to six a game. Yeah, only two games, but yeah.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Look, I probably didn't have as keen of an iron defense. I'm typically happy with the way he switches, but with what you've just laid out, I think I tend to agree that is probably why he had the high fare counts. And I guess that's the major question is how,

if we have him at the fore, if he can't be efficient on defense, or, yeah, if he can't be efficient on defense defending fours, because fours in today's NBA, a Kauai Leonard, they can be even Paul George, they're rangy wings most of the time. So how is he going to go?

It's one thing just to switch as the five-man and container guard. It's a different thing to have to consistently switch onto the league's best scorers, whether that's LeBron James, these big physical, strong guys who can just power up through you and shoes strong, don't get me wrong.

But these guys get the, as you just laid out, the fouls. These guys get calls. They get a friendly whistle. So yeah, I personally am a bit more higher on Isaiah at the four defensively, but that might just be because I'm a fanboy of Isaiah. I try to struggle. I really struggle to, yeah, sometimes I struggle to actually put on my, I know, my real glasses. I get, I get, I can get caught up in just looking at the positive sometimes. But I like his switchability, but I do agree with you. you, it's going to be very interesting to see because it really feels like he's going to play four. They're going to, I feel like they're definitely going to try it in the first month or two.

And yeah, it's going to be really interesting to see him at the four. Yeah, I don't think he'll, well, we'll get on the lineups when we talk about whether I'll start. But what you were saying about needing to defend these guys consistently, you know, you'll line up at the four and you're defending against LeBron James or Paul George or any number of the guys there. it's definitely a different beast from just switching on to them. And also other teams are going to make him cover grounds. I mean, we saw it like Al Horford. And I think that, you know, having Horford and Williams together on the floor is maybe,

I think kind of a false equivalence has been drawn. Like maybe that could be Stuart and Duren because Horford is even at age 36 more mobile and a better lever than Stewart, but also is one of the smartest players in the best basketball league in the world. You can't teach that. You can't teach his handle, which Stuart doesn't have. You can't teach his passing ability, like his court vision, which Stewart doesn't have, and his versatility, which Stewart doesn't have, so, et cetera, et cetera. Stuart struggled on his handle, like you try to create off the dribble a bit at Summer League and struggled even there. Yeah. Some of his handoffs were a bit skew if. So, and that, that, on the, yeah,

offensive side, the three ball is nice, but not enough. Yeah, how does that? I would have liked you seeing him at least get up 15, three-point tries in those two games. I feel like, yeah, he just was playing his normal stew game. Like, it would have been nice to him get up more threes. But, yeah, it's going to be very interesting because it's one thing to pick and pop and shoot threes,

once again, at the five. How do you go when you're in the corner? Because if the line-up's going to be stew at the five, Bagley at the four, you're going to be running Bagley, pick and roll with Kay. So how's Stu going to go with a defender on him in the corner? What's his counter moves? Can he, you know, I can't see him getting by any fours. Like, it's going to be really interesting.

And like I said, I think we'll definitely see it. How long we see it for in the regular season, I'm not sure. But yeah, I don't want to touch on that too much before we get to lineups. Yeah. Yeah, it's this question of what can he do on offense? because if he's just a guy who's moving slowly around the perimeter, maybe set in some picks and just shooting standstill threes, that's a very easily covered player.

It's like, yeah, the guy can't explosively cut. He's not a lob threat. He has a very poor handle. He doesn't really show anything as a passer. So, yeah, when I said not enough, it's like, yeah, we didn't see him shoot too many threes. But I also think that just shooting threes is not going to be enough for him to be, to justify playing him at the four versus another player could offer a lot more. But yeah, moving into stewards, I mean, when it comes to, yeah, when it comes down to lineups,

I feel like Stewart and Bagley just can contextualize things in terms of, because of a weird, a little bit of a weird fit because of his physical qualities. Like he's undersized and he can't jump, which means he can't, and he's also got pretty poor hands, but he's an awful role man, you get to get it to him on the floor. He's not a vertical spacer. It's very nice to have vertical spacer. He's not a high percentage finisher in the paint. Yeah.

Yeah, those assets aren't there versus, you know, Marvin Bagley on offense, for example, who is a very strong role man. He's an excellent vertical spacer and a super strong finisher in the paint. Like his numbers with the Pistons last season, 78% he's not going to replicate. But that's high, Stuart, one of the worst in the league at like 58% of his position. Yeah, Stu struggles majorly around the room. Yeah. like Stewart can't provide those assets and those assets are really important.

We saw it Bagley looked, I think, way better than he really was just because he provided those assets for Cade and Spades. Yeah, it was a reason. It was something we hadn't had all years. So once we finally had that, or Cade had that release valve vertical spacer, it probably like it accentuated. It made Bagley feel like his importance and probably impact was more. than it really was.

He looked amazing on offense, just because he was giving those things that they'd the lineup been starved for him. But it's like there's a reason that like basically every team fielded a guy like that. You want a strong role man. You want a guy who can catch lobs. You want a guy who finishes at a high percentage

and Stewart can't do it. Yeah. So. I think with Bagley though, I do think so when we say like it obviously, obviously he's, him coming in with a vertical spacing, when we say that might have been a bit overvalued

because it was simply none before. I do think as well in, I think he played 15, 18 games. I was top of my head, but there's a lot more to his game than just rolling to the rim. I think, and I know you don't want to throw the ball down to him in the post a lot, but I like him there if there's five seconds left in the shot clock, and you know, offense has come to and hold. I feel like he's a guy you can throw it to in the mid post.

He can face up. He has a nice spin move with a lefty. He likes to spin and finish with like a lefty floater a lot. And I think there's a lot more to his offensive game than just rolling. And I guess the question is whether or not you want to venture down that path and feature him more. And obviously the mid-range and three-point game is what needs to get consistent. Oh, well, the three-point chart has been non-existent. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, he's a work in progress as a as a creator of any kind around the basket.

I mean, I feel like last season he struggled in general when he was asked to create. Yeah, in terms of three-point shooting, I think he'll need that. But yeah, I'm just talking these two guys just in the context of lineups as far as when you field Isaiah Stewart. I feel like you need to, in most situations, you're going to want to babysit him with a role man. Because if you don't, then you're giving up a lot on offense, even if Isaiah can shoot. threes. I mean, again, just no role man, Kate is it really operates heavily in the high picking rule. No lot threat, no high percentage finisher. So I feel like that makes Isaiah's fit a little a little bit awkward and in lineups with him. What do you do? Do you give, do you just give that up?

I don't know. And I think that'll be a factor next season. For sure. And would you, so in my opinion, Kate and Sadiq are both locks to start. I think we definitely agree on that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think I be also at least at the beginning of the season. Okay. So I guess, yeah, I definitely see that. I also wouldn't be surprised if Alec Burke starts just to start the season. He's shot 40% from three. I think there's a 10% chance. But I just think we saw how much Corey Joseph helped Cade. and in that last couple of months of the season or forever long he started alongside Cade and I think...

I think four months. Yeah, and I think Burks is a... You know, he's 30 years old. He's not a very exciting name, but I think he was playing point guard for the Knicks last season, which isn't his position.

But I also think you put a creator next to Cade that just takes the pressure off him a little bit. I don't know, I feel like with that show, shooting because yeah i just feel like we need shooting in this starting lineup i i just can't if you're going to start we've got because i would say stewart bagley or noel one of those three will be in the starting positions i would say so we desperately need shooting and i don't i wouldn't be surprised we saw burke's start but yeah i do agree with you that ivy's probably the most certain day once started there.

Yeah, so Burks is a good player. I don't think it should be slapped on the fact that he's a solid role player. Like he's fast, he's a very good three-point shooter. He's a really strong shooter on handoffs. You know, it's a motion three-point shooter. You can shoot pull-ups. Strong shooter who can do some passing as well. I don't think he's going to do much creating in the NBA.

And it's just not really his role, but I don't think he really has it in him all that much. So he can do some. And but he's a good role player. He has a strong spacer. So, but yeah, let's go through some lineups. So I know you posted on Twitter today, you had four different lineups. But first, a quick word from our sponsor. The action never ends at drafting sports book, especially this summer.

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Minor major eligibility restriction supplies. You show notes for details. Yeah, so what was the first of those? The first one I wanted to roll with that I thought was worth discussing, which is the win now one. And that's because I feel like there's an element here in having Tom Gores as the owner who I think has been very patient for three seasons or three and a half seasons and he's a he's an owner who has is known for wanting to win now and I'm not and I also say that in

saying that Troy Weaver has flagged the 2023 summer as the year that the pistons are that look to spend and get competitive but I do think they'll be looking to win games early on in the season because I think that'll be important for attendance and I think that would be important for creating buzz around the team. So this win now lineup I have listed is Cade at point guard, Burks at the two, Sadiq at the three, Stu at the four and Nirlin's Noel at the five.

Now, yeah, I think we could probably change out Stu from there, but I also think this lineup probably, if Stu's going to be a good three-point shooter this season, which is a big if. I think that gives you a good balance of defense and offense. And, yeah, I guess what are your thoughts on that? So I think, I don't think that win now is likely to be a factor. I mean, especially when you have Gora's going up

and depressed conference at the end of the last season and saying that, you know, we have a great culture now and that was what was most important to him. And, you know, even though it's probably best for us to be losing right now, we have a great culture. And Troy Weaver coming on during Summer League in his interview and just preaching the value of patience when he was asked, you know, why do you think some rebuilds fail? And he says, well, I don't think they have enough patience.

You know, they just try to do things too quickly. So I don't think we're really looking at the likely you to win now. And even if Tom Gores is, I think if he wants to sell tickets, you'll have Jada be playing a lot of minutes in the floor, you know, even in his rookie season. But even postulating a sort of Gora saying, okay, I want to win more games this season. I don't think this would necessarily be your best win-now lineup because like I said I'm not super sold on Stewart at the four I mean honestly I think I'd be fairly happy with just Stuart off the bench from the beginning and just no-l playing that would be that would be my thing and also you might be worse without Ivy on the four like my yeah my win now lineup would be sorry I don't

interrupt my win now lineup would be Cade Ivy I've burks Bay and Noel I think that's your strongest lineup to start the season okay so yeah burks at the three I got you. I like that. Maybe I'd be a bit concerned, maybe about perimeter defense. But, yeah, I think, yeah, if you're looking to win games, I probably see, I think we're both in the grants that Berks will probably feature in the starting lineup. But I also do like him alongside Kearling in the bench, coming off the bench.

So that's a nice sort of player to have. Yeah, fair enough. Like, the lineup that, so I feel like, Like just coming back to what we were talking about, just having a roll man on the floor, I think that it's going to come down to, for Casey, maximum spacing, or less spacing and having a roll man on the floor.

And so, like, one lineup you can look at, if you don't care about having a role man, which I think would be the likeliest in that particular scenario, is Cade, Ivy, Berks, Bay, and Stewart. What would you think about that lineup? Kaye, Ivy, Berks, Bay, and Stewart. Because I think we can agree that Stewart is likely to be in the starting lineup,

like very likely to be in the starting lineup. Yeah, and I agree. I just can't see a world where Isaiah is not starting to start the season. I think that'd be a shot to his confidence if he wasn't in the starting lineup. And as you've said, as we just mentioned, we're preaching patience, Weaver's preaching patients. If we use that notion and apply it, then I think, yeah, Stu's a day one starter. And I also, there's plenty of spacing in that lineup you listed, but there's that role man missing. So I feel like it's a feature of all these line.

There's just, you can put together five guys and it's either missing a shooter or a man. There's no perfect lineup. And I think I think we could sit here for an hour and talk about the lineups. And that's the tricky thing. And it's also going to be so interesting next season, just these lineup combinations. But I also like maximizing the spacing on the floor, giving Ivy as much room in the paint to operate if he's able to get downhill.

I think that would maximize him. Yeah, no, I say Kate, too. You want to give him that space, I feel like, as well as much as he can get, especially after last season. Definitely, definitely. So, like in that lineup, cool, you've got Cade whom I feel like is going to be able to shoot next season. Ivy, hopefully a decent shooter, Bay, hopefully more consistent, already good shooter,

Burke's, a proven shooter. And then Isaiah, who I'm confident will be able to shoot. I've been confident in that since his rookie season. I'm confident as well. I think his mechanics have always been fine. Yeah, I agree. I think it was just confidence last season. And when they weren't going in early, the coach,

I think Dwayne Casey put a stop to it for a little bit there. And then he closed the season shooting 11 of 18 and 3. So, yeah, I believe in the stroke. Yeah. So in that lineup, you've ideally got five players who can shoot. And that in itself will open up more lanes for Cade and for Ivy. however you yeah you don't have a lot of threat you have kade and ivy you're going to be wanting to run on rolls which is you know and you don't have a guy who can do that because steward on the roll is basically

pick and clog the paint because yeah and you know you don't have that strong interior finisher for them to pass to and there's just opportunities gone so that brings me to what i think is maybe the likeliest for me which is you start Cade, Ivy, Sadiq, Bagley and Stewart, and Bagley basically plays center on offense and power forward on defense, and Stewart basically just shoots on offense. Yeah, perfectly summarized. I think you'll see a heavy dosage of Cade and Bagley, pick and rolls. This would be a lineup where I'd want to see Ivy receiving pinned down screens.

And, yeah, I think we just see Cade with the ball in his hands a lot. Sadiq is your secondary creator. And I also agree it's the most likely. I don't think you bring back Marvin Bagley on a three-year-th $38 million deal if you're not going to look to starting. And I'm not sure it's our best lineup, but I also, I think those five guys would be fun to watch. And I think they could create some chemistry there.

And defensively would be interesting. So I think what's your opinion on Bagley's defense? because I know it's bad, but I think he tries, and I think that counts for something. But I guess the concern there is if, yeah, we're now entering, I think, he's fifth season. So it's like at some point just because you try. Yeah. Yeah. You need to actually have some results.

I think that you see a little bit of a difference in just how he plays moving into the Pistons, which doesn't necessarily speak super well of him, though the Kings were certainly an absolute mess, so who knows, whether you think that speaks well of him or not. The issue, and I agree, he works hard, he did work hard on defense with the pistons. It's the defensive IQ, the ability to make these split-second decisions in a blindingly fast game. And I think the jig is up on him playing center on defense. I just don't think he can make those reads fast enough and make the right decisions. Absolutely.

Yeah, that's not. But on, and so at perimeter defense, he still has. He still makes some bad decisions, but he's less damaging. So I think one of the things, two things I think he needs to do in order to be a success in this contract, number one, we're going to shoot threes. So he can have that strong offensive impact to balance out that defense. The number two thing is to become like a half decent perimeter defender. So he's not a liability. So I'd say a ceiling is like the low average on defense.

Yeah. So I don't think they worry too much about that this. season. I think they really just focus on putting out the most functional lineup they can. And I think having to eat the fact that, you know, if bag, we can't shoot, just having to eat that. I think they'll do that for the sake of having that vertical space or role man, whatever else. And I think Isaiah will, yeah, will be playing power forward on offense at least the start. Yeah. Yeah, I like that lineup. I'm very interested to say it, that's for sure.

Yeah. And I know you have livers in one of your lineups. I would be surprised to see him in over Ivy or Burks, though, personally. Yeah, that was just part of my spacing lineup. And I think I just sort of opted for livers because I don't really like Alec Berks defensively at the three. And I know Cade could probably guard threes as well. But I think that's why I featured livers in that lineup as opposed to the lineup we discussed before with Ivy at the two, Berks at the three. by it of course. So I think, yeah, I think that's a bit of a stretch for him to start. But you know, you might seem to start. Get it. Uh-huh. Play on words. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

All right. And then let's get to what I will dub for me the fantasy lineup because I don't think this is likely to happen. Okay. Let's go. But we'll go to it. And maybe this is the fantasy lineup. This wouldn't be at the beginning of the season. But my fantasy lineup for the season, you know, maybe like midway through because, of course, you know, where Duren is going to be is anybody's guess. But, you know, if he can be good enough to play in the starting lineup to be that vertical spacer and roll man. And then my boy, Hamadu Dello gets together as like a 36% shooter. And you can feel that lineup of Cade and Ivy and Hamadu Bay at the four and Dern at the five. You know, you've got like one of the most athletic lineups in the

NBA with like, Ivy, I think is a top 10 athletes. And Hamadu is like a top 20 athlete. And I've stand to Hamma do a great deal on this on this show. Do I think it's likely he'll get together as a shooter? I don't know. The precedents are not in his favor, put it that way, is a bad free throw shooter who's never been a good three-point shooter. Yeah, the free throw shooting's probably the indicator there that that three-point shot, I'm not going to say it's never going to happen, but yeah, I'm questionable.

Yeah, definitely. But if he can get it together, I mean, that would be huge for the Pistons future. But yeah, in this lineup, it's crazy athletic. You've got two guys in Ivy and Diallo, or if you have to close out on them, you're just finished. We can just, you can break up defense is super well. And Diallo, you've got to put on like 10 pounds of muscle in the off season, you know, next off season to play small forward in the NBA.

And then, but, you know, and then you've got Duren, I guess I had to run the roll and catch lots and whatnot. You know what I love about this lineup is that you've got four guys that can all somewhat create a shot. You've got four guys there. He can either dribble drive off pump bags, of closeouts, or you got Bay and Cade who can shoot threes, operate a little bit in the pick and roll.

Or Cade can definitely operate in the pick and roll, so Dek can do a little bit. There's a ton of options there. And we saw, that's what we saw in that COVID bout over New Year's was Hamadu put up some ridiculous stat lines. But the thing I took from that is, he's probably at his best on ball.

So, or he can do it, like, he can do a lot on ball. The question is whether you want to, is the usage of him on ball. But I think with that fantasy lineup, I like the options you have there. Yeah, if he can shoot. Yeah, and I mean, on the rare occasions,

when Casey put him in the pick and roll as the handler, he would most often score. I mean, the guy's an absolute beast on the way to the basket. But, yeah, if he can't shoot, I mean, if he can become a good shooter, this guy could be like I think like the second or third best guy in a championship team if he is a bad shooter I'd say he's a depth player and a contender at best I love love this enthusiasm second best guy on a championship team I'm all in on Hamadu for the jumper yeah yeah absolutely

I mean if Hamadu is a reliable like 38% shooter I mean maybe that's maybe that's pushing it a little bit second best but maybe yeah second or third best I'm just super high on him if you can if he can just be a good shooter and beat the Energizer Bunny on both ends of the four, I'm super big on him. So, all right, just to add that, what do you think is the most likely lineup to start the season? You think it's that Bagley lineup at the four? Yeah, I think the one with, yeah, Bagley at the four, Stu at the five, then Kaye, Ivy, Bay, one through three. Yeah, I think so too. All right, and as for the rest of the rotation. Well, as for the rest of the rotation, so if we go with those five guys starting. There's a ton of guys who, in my opinion, are worthy of minutes. So I'll just

list these names outside of that starting five that we have. And so we have Nerlens-Noelle, Alec, Alec, Killian Hayes, Isaiah Rivers, Kelly Olinic, and Hammadou Diallo. That's six guys there who I see all registering rotation minutes. And then on the fringe, I have, Corey Joseph, Jalen Duran, and I do have Saban Lee listed here, but Corey Joseph and Jalen Duran are also guys who we'll see, I think we'll see during the season. So there's eight guys there. That's a 13-man rotation that Dwayne Casey's got to find minutes for. So I guess of those guys, who do you see least likely getting minutes?

Least likely? I would say Sabin-Lee is virtually. He's out, I would say. You have Kevin Knox, so I don't think we'll see minutes and much he's. amazing. I forgot Kevin Knox, so there you go. Not officially signed yet, but Corey Joseph, I think we live in a land of ifs with some of these players. If Hamadu can't shoot, then you're more likely to see Corey Joseph if he can shoot like he did last season.

Hamadu's the one that caught me out when I was writing this list down because I just, when I was doing the list, I sort of forgot we had him and he was, he didn't feature much in the first month or two of the season. he was a part of the rotation to close the season and when you bring him back on a team option um i'm i feel like that like signals at least he'll be a part of the rotation i'd be shocked if he wasn't but there's so many players that he need minutes so yeah yeah it's an if you can shoot i mean that's i think they they paid that five million dollars just against the possibility of him being able to shoot yeah and if you can fantastic uh if he cannot then i'd say he's a

He's gone in the summertime. I'd say almost certainly he's gone to the summertime. And the one thing I'll just say as well, I actually noted, because as everyone knows, we've got five Bigman on the roster, but three of them have all been injury prone. So we've got Calliolanic missed most of the last season, and then Bagley-N-Wel have suffered major injuries. So there's every chance that one of those guys by the history of their careers

suffers an injury. So maybe that's why we've got so many bigs on the roster in place of potential injuries. Yeah, it's possible. It's one thing to keep in mind. Yeah. I think that Bagley's just going to play a power forward for his future in the NBA. Maybe center on offense, but I don't think you'll ever see him play defense on center on defense. But I think you put it well, break less in case from emergency guys.

Yeah, Sean, who was on the show a couple seasons ago. So the same thing about these two guys. Joseph is one of them. I think Alenica is the second. and wouldn't be shocked to see him gone. It will almost undoubtedly not to be to the Celtics, as some have brought up. That trade exception is ending, is expiring at the end of today.

Today is Monday. And also it would cost the Celtics $48 million a luxury tax to take him on. Bringing Kelly. Yeah, exactly. So it's $60 million in total for Kelly next season. I think we touched on it, but I think he would be the most likely traded before the season. I would say.

Yeah, I would say. He keeps the odd men out. Yeah. And he'd be good for in case there's no shooting, but I don't think the pistons are just going to give up on Bagley. They maybe just played Bay at some power forward minutes as well. Weathers, I'd say, is very likely to be part of the rotation in any case. It's a lot to give up, $38 million to give up on Bagley.

So I think that's, at least for this season, we're going to see a lot of Marvin Bagley, good. I would say so. Yeah, absolutely. And then you've got Killian Hayes, who I think is certain to be in the rotation. Bad or good. I wanted to ask.

Sorry, sorry, cut you off. I just wanted to ask, do you think there's even a 1% chance Killian starts day one? Oh, I would say no. I would say as close to zero as is as possible. Yeah. I'm going to put a 1% chance.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but I don't know. I don't know. I just wanted to ask and see your reaction, that's all. I think that he'd have to start over somebody who is a better space or who's a better athlete. I mean, I don't think you want to put Cade, Bay, and Hayes on the floor, and certainly not with Stewart. You have the most slow-moving lineup in the NBA. Do you remember that Cavaliers game last season?

It was beginning of the season when they were just literally running circles around that lineup? Was that when we played in Cleveland? Yes. Yeah, that was a rough game. That was ugly. That was ugly. dominated. That was, yeah.

It was real ugly. And then we came back and beat Toronto, though, the back to back. Oh, was it? That's why I easily forgot that Cavs game. Was it that one? No, this Cavs game was at the beginning of the season. It was when Jared Allen dunked on Luka Garza that game. And Garza ended up flat in his back.

But, yeah, I don't think you want. We did beat Toronto twice in Toronto. Oh, okay. Did they play three times against the Raptors last season? I can't remember. Yeah, we're three to know the past two seasons. So I keep saying weight, the pistons are three and no. You and I have done great against the Raptors.

Yeah, we're out there. We're out there hustling. So Hayes, I could see he'll get minutes to start. If he's still really bad next season, I could see him losing his minutes toward the, you know, from halfway, less minutes, rather, depending on injuries from halfway through the season to the end. Yeah.

Yeah, I think I'm, I've still got stock in Killian, but it's becoming hard to maintain. that stock because I feel like constantly you just see things people on Twitter looking for these little finite stats to justify Killian and that's when I get really concerned for his career but I think it just needs to get that catch and shoot three consistently going confidently and we might he might have a long NBA career but until he gets that because I don't think he's got he doesn't have the burst to finish he He's actually got a really good handle, but I just think he has no burst to get around anyone consistently.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, that three-point shot could keep him in the NBA if he doesn't. I'd say he's done. But, yeah, I mean, if he can add actually being able to drive into the paint and break down defenses and actually use that passing of his, then maybe you've got to get back up point guard or kind of a lower end starter. But, yeah, he's young, but the concern is that he's shown hardly anything. Yeah, he was so bad last season on office.

offense. So bad. All right. Any closing thoughts? I can't wait. I think this is the most highly anticipated season for me as a Pistons fan. I think though it will be another season of development, I think we've got some really exciting pieces and the best young core that Detroit have had since I've been a fan easily. So these line-up questions are going to keep us busy up until preseason or training. camp in late September, early October. And, yeah, I think Jaden Ivy and Jailen-Durran A-plus Detroit Weaver for the draft

this season. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to this season and can't wait to talk to all my Detroit friends about it and should be an exciting season of growth. Yeah, absolutely agree. So, yeah, folks, Jack Kelly, you can read his content on Detroit badboys.com. He's on Twitter at Jack underscore Kelly underscore 313. And thank you so much, Jack, for joining the show today. Absolutely, man.

I had a blast. Yeah, likewise. So if you enjoyed this episode, talking to you and now the listener, if you enjoyed this episode and past episodes, consider following the podcast on Twitter at To the BasketPod. And as always, thank you for listening. See you in the next episode.