Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 110: 2021-2022 Season in Review - Marvin Bagley

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

This episode recaps Marvin Bagley's short 2022 season with the Pistons and discusses areas of necessary improvement.

Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to Drive into the Basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike coming at your day with the solo episode. And this is going to be the first of a series of season retrospectives on individual players. We'll talk about what they did well, what they did poorly. And this is only going to be players who are with the Pistons in the coming season as well. There's been a fair amount of roster turnover, not really too interested in talking about those players who aren't going to be around next season. So in accordance with them being around next season, we'll talk.

about also, or rather I in this episode, we'll talk about what they ideally should be working on this summer in order to put forth a good, better, whatever, optimal performance in the upcoming season. Now, we are definitely right in the midst of the dead zone of the off season. Summer League is over, the draft is over. As I record this, it's about 10 weeks until training camp begins, excuse me, until preseason begins. Training camp will begin around the end of September. preseason began around the beginning, usually around the first week of October, but the regular season beginning in the second third week of October. So we got a ways to go.

There's plenty of excitement for next season, but this is the slow zone, without a doubt. So I'm going to do my best to put out a lot of good content for you guys. And yeah, so that said, let's move on to player number one. And that is Marvin Bagley. came to the Pistons last season in mid-February, played his first game on the 14th of February by way of trade with the Sacramento Kings, who drafted him second overall in 2018. The Pistons have been tied to Bagley for much of the season. You don't really hear a ton coming out of Detroit's front office, but we heard about interest

in Bagley for quite some time. And sure enough, he came over at the deadline on Deadline Day in exchange for Josh Jackson, Trey Liles, and a couple of second round picks, one of which, along to Sacramento in the first place came over by way of the Corey Joseph for Dilan Wright trade in 2021. And the other which came over in the trade the Pistons made, it was a salary dump back in 2020 for a certain player I strongly dislike. In any event, that was just, I think, the worst of Golden State in Cleveland. And if I remember correctly, 2025, a second round pick. So more or less a throwaway. In any case, Marvin came and played

18 games for the Pistons, averaged about 27 minutes per game, 14 and a half points, seven rebounds, one assist on a 55 and a half percent from the field, 22.9 percent from three, and about 59 percent from the free throw line. So Marvin came in around the point at which the Pistons started to win a little bit. He was around for that big win against Boston prior to the All-Star Break. He only played two games prior to the All-Star Break. And that was, injured for a few games in the middle of that, missed a couple of wins, and now that the pistons won a couple more after he came back, and that was it. What I would say about Bagley, he definitely did bring some good things to the Pistons.

It was noticeable immediately how helpful it was for the team to have a vertical spacer. For example, a guy who can catch Wobbs didn't have one of those before that. I mean, your three bigs were Alenic, Garza, and Stewart, none of whom we can do that. I mean, Stewart can catch some really low level lobs, but that's really not a strong suit. A Bagley also a strong role man. Again, something that's the Pistons had not had to that point. Just harmful to any team to not have other of those things. I mean, you have, just having that vertical spacing threat just gives you another option, you know, another option.

Another option for the players in the floor, another option that the defense has to guard against a guy who can sky and grab lobs. You know, deposit those that type percentage offense. a good role man. Like Olinick, obviously, you know, not a good role man. This doesn't, in terms of rolling the basket and finishing the paint, not great. Garza is Garza. I wish him well, but he had his issues at the NBA level, even on offense, certainly on defense. And Stewart, who has just his physical limitations of his own.

I mean, he's short. He's a relatively poor leper. I mean, the guy is just not good at jumping. When I say he's short, he's about six, seven and a half. He's short for his position. So you put those two things together. He's not going up to catch lobs. You're going to have to get on the ball on the ground.

And he scores from below the rim, which really doesn't help in terms of finishing there. Also, it doesn't have the greatest hands, which means he drops a lot of passes. And if you get a bullet pass you're sending to him, shouldn't count on him being able to catch it. And, yeah, again, scores below the rim in a not particularly efficient way. Stewart was in the absolute doldrums of the league for centers in terms of efficiency in the restricted area. That's another thing Bagley brought. Very, very strong finisher in the restricted area for the pistons. It was generally like in a high 60s or the rest of his career for the pistons last season.

He managed about 78%. So that's pretty darn good, needless to say. So you've got those three qualities, a strong vertical spacing threat. Like Bagley is an excellent athlete. He's not like super long. He's got about the 7 foot two wingspan, I think, which is, you know, if you're talking like not super great, it's in comparison to his height since he's close to 7 feet. But it's enough.

He's an excellent leaper. like by all means a great functional leper. On the roll, he can roll explosively to the basket. You know, he's got the size and the length and the leaping ability to get the ball pretty easily if you're throwing it above the defense. He's got pretty good hands to catch those passes. And yeah, he's an above-the-rim finisher

who is just, he's a very strong finisher, or at least he was with the pistons. And compared to Stewart, he's just a strong finisher, and period. So this is a player with useful skills that we saw right away, made life it seems considerably easier on Kate Cunningham. It was nice to have even for Killian Hayes and so on and so forth. So that was pretty much what he provided.

That finishing, that role presence, that vertical spacing. He did a little bit of offensive creation. Didn't do the greatest job at it when he possessed the ball for more than two seconds and then took a shot. I shot about 52%. Yeah, not great. It's not bad by the standards of self-created offense. which is I think around 48, 49% as the average.

But his percentage tended to drop when he held him on the ball for too long. Bagley continues to have issues with actually creating offense around the basket. And yeah, so that's what he provided, really. That's the sum of it. And I think he looked a little bit better than he did because the pistons had just not had those qualities, like the three qualities that I just noted, it just absolutely not had them at all.

Weaver decided to go last offseason, with Kelly Olinick to provide additional spacing, as opposed to having a guy who was, you know, in addition to maybe being a stronger defender than Kelly, somebody who was going to be a spacing big, an athletic big. He actually said later on the season, I believe this was in his exit interview, or not an exit interview because he's not exiting after the season interview,

pardon me, that he'd made a mistake by not having an athletic big on the roster. And I think we can all agree about that. Like every roster, pretty much like almost every team, either starts, if a center doesn't have those qualities with being strong in the rule, strong finisher, solid vertical spacer, and he's starting at center, he's almost certainly very good at something else. So, and it's rare for a team to not field any athletic biggs at all. So, but when it came down to Bagley's actual performance, wasn't all that great. He remains a project

player. And that's the truth, despite the fact, that's the case, rather despite the fact that he did he really outperformed his career baseline with business in terms of his, you know, finishing in the interior, in terms of his overall field goal percentage. And that raises another question. Like, did what even we saw in his good areas on offense last season? Is that going to last? Is that part of kind of a moving out of Sacramento and sort of rebirth in Detroit in a much better organization and certainly under a better coach, whom by all accounts, he,

really had a good relationship with, or is it kind of a blip, or is it somewhere in between? Whatever the case, the guy still definitely has a good amount of raw talent. I mean, I don't think, I think that's pretty undeniable. Well, can't call it an undeniable. I'd say I strongly believe that. He's always going to be, unfortunately, the guy who was drafted before Luca, which was an insane decision even in the moment, but he's, you know, he's got talent. He was high in those draft boards because he's got talent.

And there's plenty of guys high in draft with the flunk, but Bagley does have that raw talent. And can he convert into something in Detroit? As things progress in his career, well, the front office certainly has some degree of confidence in that. And he's going to, as they gave him a contract, it's going to pay him $12.5 million a year just the flat rate over the next three seasons. Not a huge salary, really. $12.5 million is what you pay a bench player in the NBA these days. Better bench players, but you pay a bench player that salary. So, yeah, let's just look at what he did well, what he did poorly.

I already went over pretty much everything he did well. Yeah, I'll just repeat it. Roll presence, vertical spacing, high percentage interior finishing, made life easier on the guards, just provided more options to the offense. Now, as far as what he did not do particularly well, at first thing, he did not provide much versatility on offense. And you don't have to provide this level of versatility on offense. If you, you know, if you're just one of these athletic bigs who can do those things,

and then can play decent defense on the other end. You know, you're somewhat switchable. You're a decent rim protector. I mean, there are plenty of these guys in the NBA. Unfortunately, Bagley is not a decent defender by really by any stretch. And the reality matter with the pistons is that they were worse with him on the floor than without.

So what did this come of? Well, let's go with the aforementioned defense. Bagley has had issues on defense for a long time. Like even back to his. Duke days during which Mike Shoshavsky had to play the zone, rather than man-to-man, because Bagley and his teammate Wendell Carter Jr., who now plays for the Magic, was drafted by the Bulls, neither of them were able to define the pick and roll. So Bagley actually played a fair amount of center with the Pistons. I mean, it's not a position that he has not played much,

but yeah, he was about 60-40, and in games in which Isaiah Stewart was out, and Bagley found himself playing center, and as an interior defender, he struggled a great deal. Now, there is some players, some defense is coachable, but to some degree, it's acumen. By acumen, I mean the ability at the NBA level to make reads and decisions in an extraordinarily fast-moving game against incredibly talented opposition on a split-second basis. So when Bagley was asked to defend its center, he really struggled, like to say the least. In my opinion, is he just does not have it in him as an interior defender. I don't think he's a guy here. going to want to play it, put it center and say, you know, please defend the interior because he

just does not seem able to make the right decisions, whether it's in the half court or in transition. So when the Pistons played him there, they suffered. And, you know, that was fine because the pistons at this stage of the season were not, well, I guess in some points they were trying to win games, but the losses were fine, you know, for obvious reasons. But going forward, my supposition is that this is not a coachable issue, that he just does not have the defensive vacuum. And you want to call a defensive IQ or whatever else to do that at the NBA level to play that interior defense role. So in terms of his perimeter defense, he's a better perimeter defender than he is an interior defender, which is a good thing. Otherwise, he would more or less be a loss cause at the

NBA level. So, you know, he uses his length fairly well. He's athletic. And he seems to be much more comfortable guarding somebody out in the perimeter than he does when he's trying to protect the interior, which is a much more expansive job. Still has his issues. Just, can get caught ball watching, can just fail to make the right rotation, can fail to make the right read. So even on the perimeter, he wasn't a good defender. He had his troubles. He worked hard. He did his best. He was still not good. Still, I would say, significantly below average. So you add that together to his offense. So on offense, Bagley was not particularly versatile. So I don't need to repeat what I said earlier about what he did provide to the offense. And those are valuable things. However, that was

really all he provided. Like when, for the most part, when you ask him to do anything outside of the restricted area, he's going to struggle. And, you know, for those of you don't know the terminology restricted area, we're talking about four feet away from the basket and in. So the area within, you know, that, that arc four feet within the basket, so sorry. So if he was ever asked, if he was asked to do anything there with the pistons, then, you know, that, you know, that arc, You know, as usual, this is this was not only the case with the pistons. This was the case in Sacramento as well. He struggled.

And in fact, you know, in the further out, you went, of course, the worst it got, the worst it got. He could not really shoot threes to say the least. On the season, it was something like 19% on wide open threes with the pistons. It was about 24% on wide open threes. He was a complete spacing liability. You know, if you took him out of the area around the basket, then he was pretty useless. Opponents would just leave him wide open there. Defenders would.

they were more than happy to do so because, you know, it's like, okay, in a best case scenario for us, you're going to shoot the ball and you're going to miss it. I mean, 24% is a shot that the defense will eat any day. And if you don't shoot it, then cool, well, you're still a strong interior score. You know, we've done offense created for you by others. And you're not in the interior. So cool, that's good for us too. So basically a very one-dimensional score who's almost entirely succeeding just on offensive.

in the restricted area created for him by his teammates. Can't shoot threes. You know, really didn't do all that well as a creator. I mean, if you got the ball to him in really good position, then fine. But if you actually asked him to create offense, like take the ball and you're not in good position and do something what he do is going to struggle. So, yeah, basically just came down to one-dimensional offense together with bad defense. And that's why the Pistons struggled with him on the floor.

So, yeah, you're coupling women in offensive contribution with bad defense. Now, is this an issue? Again, Marvin Bagley's project player. He was brought in as a project player. The cost was low. Cost was low because he's a project player. At this point, he's a reclamation project. Because, to say the least, he was very disappointing in his first contract.

When he wasn't injured, he was largely just underperforming his draft position on the floor. So that brings us to his outlook for next season. But first, our very, very quick word from our sponsor. The action never ends a drafting sports book, especially this summer, with tons of ways spent on all your favorite sports, you can fuel your fandom and feel the heat of the season like never before. Plus, right now, Drafking Sportsbook is giving new customers a risk free bet up to $1,000. That's right, and the first bet up to $1,000. If it doesn't win, you'll get another shot to cash in.

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risk-free bet up to $1,000. That's promo code TBPN, only at drafting sportsbook minimum age and eligibility restrictions supplies is showing up to details. All right. So let's look at Bagley's outlook. Otherwise known, I suppose, is how the organization hopes that things will go. So obviously in the defense event, you're hoping for some improvements. I get the feeling Bagley will be used on defense, almost exclusively as a power forward going forward in the future, rather. He could come out and surprise everybody and just, you know, changing organizations is just really smooth things out for him, made him more relaxed. And, you know, suddenly he comes out and he's not a terrible interior defender. But that would be a really unusual leap, like extremely unusual leap.

So what I think we're going to see from the piss is going forward is, yeah, even if, even in a situation in which he might be playing center on offense, like let's say you field him with Isaiah Stewart. and this is a lineup that Jack Kelly and I, who's my guest on the last episode, spoke about, I think we both judged this the most, the likeliest lineup to go out there would be Kate Cunningham, Jaden Ivy, Sadiq Bay, Marvin Bagley, and Isaiah Stewart,

because Bagley is going to be out there to give you that role presence and finishing presence and vertical spacing that really you absolutely want to have for Cade and you ideally want to have for Jaden Ivy and you want to have for the starting lineup. up and that Isaiah Stewart can't give you. So basically in that situation, you have Marvin Bagley playing role man and primary interior, interior scoring big on offense.

And then you go to the other end and you have Isaiah Stewart playing center on defense, the role for which he's drastically better suited than Bagley. So, yeah, that situation, basically you find Bagley, just defending on the perimeter. Even there, you hope for some improvement because he's got to become at least, for example, a possible, excuse me, a possible pick and rule defender. because the opposition will find ways to put him in a pick-and-roll. I mean, period. And if he's just completely hopeless there, then you've got issues,

and these won't be issues that will be as big in the regular season. But, again, Pistons are looking to be a good put. Not again. I mean, this is just everybody knows this. The Pistons are looking to be a good post-season team. Everybody is. And in the post-season, every one of your weaknesses on your team, any major weakness player has will be ruthlessly exploited.

like again and again and again and again and again and again. And so you're looking for some improvement for Bagley and to ideally like at least a respectable, like if still below average perimeter to vendor. And I don't think that's out of reach. So you're hoping for that. On defense, pretty simple. On offense, if the front office is looking for Bagley

to be a real rotational piece going forward. And I don't know, I don't know what they're expecting, but I would imagine, of course, at minimum, you're hoping, okay, Bagley, becomes a solid rotation player on a playoff team. Then you're really looking for quite a bit, you know, a fair amount of improvement, especially in the realm of, we can say in the realm of versatility on offense. I think Bagway is going to give you the same.

I mean, you know what Bagway's going to give you. Again, I don't need to repeat. You know, Bagley's going to give that to you. But he's a player who's really going to have to find his impact on offense, barring just that tremendous sleep on defense. And what he provides right now just isn't good. enough to do that. So what are you looking for from? Number one, I would say top on the list, like unequivocally so, is three-point shooting because if you have a Bagley who's a strong interior

score, so a rather strong finisher and can also shoot threes, then cool. You've got a much more complete offensive player. If he can't shoot threes, then he's a very limited offensive player. Just the ability, of course, the more than merrier in terms of three-point shooting. And in your ideal situation has five shooters in the four. But Bagley, again, primarily going to be playing power forward. even if he's effectively playing center on offense, I mean, he just has to have more weapons in order to provide that in order to provide good value. He's got to be a legitimately good offensive player.

So three point shooting, a must. Guys got to be able to knock down those open threes. And, you know, ideally do it at a high percentage. Now, is that a lot to ask at this point of his career? Well, he has one season, wait about half of a season in 2020, 2020, 2021, shot 34% from three.

that's not, you know, that's much better percentage than he managed last season, but it's not exactly what you're looking for. You know, at least on open threes, which he's still shot at a pretty poor percentage that season. Like, I'm wide open threes, we're talking the ones where what they're defined is at least, you know, upwards of six feet from the closest defender. I mean, he's still shot about 33%. That's not going to cut it for Bagley, who's, again, going to be sort of an offensive specialist if he's really finding good value in the NBA. You want him in a high 30s on those shots. You want him to be a reliable spacer. A guy also hopefully who doesn't need six feet, you know, can shoot with defenders a little bit closer than that.

You're not asking for him to be a knockdown shooter through coverage, but you want him to be a fairly strong three-point shooter. And I think that's an absolute necessity if he's going to provide good value to the piston, period. You definitely, and this just springs to mind, a free-throw shooting would be very nice if that improved as well. because it's just, I mean, it's important. There's another guy you're going to be hoping to get him to the line of fair amounts and he's a career 66% free throw shooter. That's not good. And this last season with the Pistons, he attempted only, he attempted about three a game,

which isn't a ton, but 59%. And the season before that, about three a game, 57.5%. You've got to see some improvement there. And honestly, as free throw percentage, I mean, in terms of predicting how he's going to do is it through. is a three-point shooter that's not particularly encouraging. But that doesn't write the book. You could easily improve it both.

I'm not thinking too much about that. So cool. If you can shoot three is awesome. And your hope beyond that is that maybe he can create some offense and niche situations just when you really need a bucket around the basket. Now, this doesn't necessarily need to be in the post. We're talking back to the basket. And it would be surprising if it were because it would be an understatement to say

that Bagley has not been a good post-up player throughout his career. He's actually been very bad. Anything face-up offense, whatever. You know, if you can just take the ball and create some offense when it's given to him, then that would be very helpful. Well, that's less of a necessity than three-point shooting. This is more of just kind of a would-be-nice for a player who, again, is going to be providing the majority of his value on offense. How does he get there? Your guess is as good as mine. I mean, again, as far as post-offense, even if you were to improve there, I've said it before. I'll say it again a million times. I mean, post-offence is not a very viable way of doing things today in the NBA. Very few players can make it efficient enough to be worthwhile. And I don't think it's particularly

likely that Bagley is going to find himself becoming a good post-playmaker either, excuse me, post-playmaker because the guy's just not a particularly good passer. Another skill that would be nice for him to improve upon, but one at which is shown very little on the way of Accumann. So what do you have if you have a Bagley who is able to shoot threes? Let's just go with that. Okay. So, So it depends on who he's on the floor with, of course. I mean, if he's on the floor with another athletic big, if you have Bagley out there with Duren, okay, then Bagley's probably not running the role. You've got Duren running the role because otherwise Duren's just hanging out and doing nothing,

and hopefully Duren's going to be a pretty good role man himself. Or Bagley, it should be noted, the more athletic at the two. Duren is a genuinely good NBA athlete. I wouldn't call him elite. I mean, he's very good. Bagley, I would call an elite NBA athlete, not like tippy top up there, but fantastic lever better than Dernelie. and not quite as long, but Bagley is an excellent leaper.

Whatever the case, I digress. So, yeah, let's say he's on the floor with Stewart, for example. Okay, you've got Bagley serving as the primary role man, and Stewart's probably just hanging out at the three-point line, just taking shots. And as I've said before, I don't think that's going to be a viable, a really viable long-term role for him on offense because that's not offering much. And you really can be looking for more than that. and Stewart just doesn't really have much more to offer than that,

but whether it's off the bench or just next season for a squad that continues to be rebuilding, rather, that's fine. So in that situation, you've got Bagley as the primary role man. And yeah, pretty basic role. Even in that situation, there are going to be cases in which you can find yourself

wanting him to spread the floor. You know, it's just a good option to have, whether it's a pig and pop, or whether it's just setting it, pick and whoever's handling the ball gets the defense all out of sorts and whatever. Just the ability to shoot it, even in that situation, would be valuable. If he is in the floor with the likes of Duren, then the ability to space the floor becomes even more important because in that case, he's probably not serving as the primary ruleman.

But even then, if he's not shooting threes, you have a guy who can cut fairly explosively to the basket and catch a lob or just catch the ball under the basket and finish at a high percentage. So you've got to have Bagley strong on offense. and I would imagine that in addition to improving to whatever degree he can on defense, which I think is fairly is going to be fairly limited. That's, I think, in my opinion, just an unfortunate reality. They will be looking for that significant improvement as a shooter.

So that's what I would call the key factor for Marvin Bagley going in the next season. So that'll be the end of this one. Some of these are going to be a little bit short. There's not always going to be a tremendous amount to talk about Bagley. certainly 30 minutes is the shortest episode. If I remember correctly, that has been released in quite some time. So in any case, I hope you all enjoyed it. And we'll be back next week with a significantly more in-depth season review on a favorite,

it seems, of nearly every Piston fan, Sadiq Bay. And finally, if you've enjoyed this episode and previous episodes, consider following the podcast on Twitter at To the Basket Podcast. and also started on an email account and is driving to the basket at gmail.com. If any of you would like to get into contact by email, again, always love to hear feedback, thoughts on future episodes, really whatever else. So as always, thank you all for listening. Catch you in the next episode.