Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 114: 2021-2022 Season-in-Review - Isaiah Stewart (With Jack Kelly of Detroit Bad Boys)

Episode Date: August 24, 2022

This episode, featuring Jack Kelly of Detroit Bad Boys, recaps Isaiah Stewart's 2021-2022 season and discusses a bit about his future.

Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to Drive into the Basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike, your host today. I'm joined by Jack Kelly of Detroit Bad Boys. Welcome, Jack. Nice to have you on the show again. Thanks having me back, Mark. Looking forward to it. Yeah, absolutely. So Jack here is for my money, one of the real up-and-coming Pistons content creators puts out a ton of good content on Twitter. You can find him there at Jack underscore Kelly underscore 313. So check them out. So today we're going to be talking to Isaiah. Isaiah Stewart. I like the guy.

I know, Jack, you're pretty high on him, if I recall. I would say I'm probably on the highest side, but I think he's a pretty divisive topic. Yeah, he can be, and I think one of the reasons he's so divisive is that the guy is so damn likable. I mean, it's impossible not to like Isaiah Stewart, I think, if you're a Pistons fan. Like, if you want to talk the Detroit mentality, or even if you just like guys who are consummate sportsmen, like Isaiah Stewart is up there.

in terms of his passion and how hard he works and how dedicated he is to team success. Absolutely. I think that's what's endeared him immediately to the fan base and probably a fair portion of his fans sort of stick by him because he embodies sort of the city of Detroit, the grit, toughness. And there's that Ben Wallace connection, even though they're sort of different players, there's just that undersized center mentality that I think a lot of people gravitate towards. Yeah. Yeah, Stuart is only six, seven and a half without shoes. He is not particularly tall for his position. And as much as I totally agree about the mentality, the similarity is a mentality between them. If only Stewart had the athleticism of Ben Wallace, of course, he would have been drafted like top five in 2020 if that had been the case.

No, 100%. He does have that, I think it's a 75 wingspan or something. I think seven, I think seven four, yeah, thereabouts. Yeah, he's definitely very long, no doubt about that. I think Ben, we never found out exactly how tall Ben is without shoes. I mean, he may have been as short at 6-6. Yeah, I was doing. I was looking at some big Ben stuff the other day, and yeah, he looked awfully short out there. But he had obviously those long arms and he could jump.

So, yeah, obviously that helped make up for the size. but yeah, he definitely looked quite short out there. Because as probably some people know by now, I've only been a Pistons fan since 2012. So I haven't watched a lot of big Ben, so going back and watching some stuff, like it really stuck out how undersized he was, but obviously he made up for that.

Oh, he did. And the guy, in addition to having sky high defensive IQ, I mean, there are very few guys who are as smart on the defensive end as Ben Wallace was, just in terms of it, he was an athletic freak. I mean, like an absolute athletic freak. he was not just a fantastic leaper, the kind of guy who was a nightmare when he came in Helpside to swat shots. I mean, he was just quick. I mean, he's one of the quickest

rebounders I've ever seen just in terms of his ability to just get to a spot very, very quickly. It wasn't explosiveness. He just had super quick feet, and he would come out of nowhere to grab a rebound. And it was that plus his verticality, fantastic verticality, and his work ethic, they made him such a fantastic rebounder also. Now, I've got a question for you. How do you think Ben Wallace, Ben Wallace, I know we're getting off the topic of Isaiah Stewart, but who cares? That's okay. I'm talking about Ben Wallace, yeah. How do you think he would have fared in today's NBA versus the era in which he played? So I did think about that. And I think from what I saw,

his offense was essentially non-existent and the free throws were a major issue. But I think we've gone away from that, that era of the hacker Dwight sort of stuff. So I think, I think, think he was sort of in the right era, but I also think he would have been pretty dominant in today's NBA with his switchability, obviously his rim protection, rebounding. Yeah, but I do think he was in the right era. Yeah, he had his issues on offense, definitely. And back then it was okay. Not okay. I mean, it was not ideal, but it was. That's what I was thinking. Like, when you look at those final score lines of, I know there's that famous Pacers series where they're in the 60s, but even those, I don't know, in today's offense, like, I feel like you've got to be

able to do something. And I know he could offensive rebound and that sort of thing, but who knows? He did used to open up most games with a post-up room. He'd range jumpers. So maybe he could have develop that side of his game. Who knows? Maybe. Yeah, I would think that, I mean, he'd have to shoot free throws better these days. I mean, nobody can shoot free throws that badly in today's NBA. I think he would get hacked. But I think it's funny, I've always, look back on this that during the Pistons-Lakers series, there were no hacks. Like, the Lakers did not hack Ben Wallace and the Pistons did not hack Shaq. So, I mean, I was, I find myself wondering occasionally. It's like, did Phil Jackson and Larry Brown just get together before the series and say, we're not

going to do this because it was an usual agreement. Yeah, because that would be awful. It would have been a terrible series if that was happening constantly. Well, now that you say that, like, I remember growing up, Like 2005, 6 was when I first started watching NBA. And I think that Ben Wallace and Shaquille O'Neill, like, I learned everything through like NBA Live and 2K. Like I think they were the worst free throw shooters by mile. So maybe there was, David Stern said, let's make a mutual agreement here. Or, yeah, like you said, Phil Jackson and Larry Brown.

But yeah. Yeah, like let's have a real series. Yeah, you raise a good point there. But I think Ben and, on defense would be, you know, equally as valuable, but perhaps even more valuable, I would think, in today's NBA. Like, one of his chief weaknesses would not be there. I mean, he had his struggles against guys who were just taller and way bigger than him because,

you know, you're posted up by those guys, the post-up offense is lesser in today's NBA, which would help him. I mean, there's only so much you can do against a guy like Shaq, who can just score over you. Yeah. But, so he wouldn't have those guys. I mean, I'm beat in Yokic, or I'm beat in Yokic. Nobody's stopping them. I mean, that is what it is.

No, absolutely. Yeah. But for the most part, I mean, the number of one through five defenders, guys, who can defend every position in the NBA is very small, like very, very small. I actually can't think of anybody right now. I mean, you have Jeremy so on coming into the league who might be able to do that. But I feel like Ben Wallace would be able to guard one through five in today's NBA. He could guard anywhere.

He could guard probably just about anyone except for those really big centers. And super switchable. And I think would be more valuable on defense on all. Offense, of course, have to find some way to contribute. Yeah, I think that would be the key because I don't think you can have a complete non-factor on offense these days. I agree. Have to be able to contribute something.

100%. Yeah. I think that you'd probably see him run more on the role because the guy had hops. And, you know, he was a decent score around the bat. I mean, the fact that he could score above the rim, even at his height, was very helpful. He was a decent score around the basket. So, yeah, probably just running the roll quite a bit. and yeah, just a garbage man, but a very good garbage man.

But yeah, definitely if you have a, it's really tough to run a center who can't score very well. And I guess that brings us to Isaiah Stewart. Great transition. Yeah, absolutely. So like I said, I love Stewart. I don't want to sound overly critical because I love Stewart. I think he's one of those guys every sportsman should aspire to be just in terms of how hard he works, how he plays for his team. and just the character, his level of character is just off the charts.

And I think it's okay to love a player and to still be able to acknowledge his weaknesses. And not every player the pistons have has to be a star. Most of them won't be. So, and my opinion is that Stewart falls into the role player category. For sure. I think so I've been doing a lot of thinking about Stu in the offseason. Obviously, there was the, him playing at the four through Summer League, We'll touch on later, but I think with Stu, for me, and I've applied this logic with

Killing Hayes, mainly after his disappointing rookie season, but I think for Stu, it's all about adjusting expectations and where do I see Isaiah Stewart on a Pistons team that's budding contention? So for me, I think I'm not sure whether he sits in the starting lineup or he's the first big off the bench, but I really enjoyed a quote from Tim McMahon, which he said on one of the ESPN podcast, which was that he sees Isaiah Stewart, or he sees Detroit molding Isaiah Stewart into a PJ Tucker type of player. And I really like that because PJ Tucker isn't really a big stats guy, but he's defended some of the best players in the playoffs. We saw him against Jarnas and even though Yarnas put up big numbers, not against Yarnas.

We saw him playing with Yarnas in the finals, my mistake. But we've seen him tasked with defending some of those bigger wings. He's played small ball five on the rockets and he essentially stretches the floor and he's just that hustle player that I think every sort of contender has. So I think for me we can get into the strengths and weaknesses of Stu, but I really like that sort of player mold for Stu. That's an interesting point about the hustle guys. I mean, you look back on the box who had PJ Tucker last season.

The Celtics with Marcus Smart, though I think you could throw Robert Williams and Grant Williams into that category. And the Warriors, of course, Draymond, you know, that is that hardly needs to be said. Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way. Yeah, with Stuart, yeah, sorry, go ahead. So just because it's, I like that you brought up Grant Williams there because I sort of did a little bit of research.

And from last season, there was these sort of undersized bigs, which they don't all fit the exact skill set of stew, but they're undersized bigs that all contributed to winning teams. So there's the likes of Grant Williams, P.J. Tucker, even Brandon Clark, he's only six foot eight. He's obviously a rim running type of big, but he's still that undersized rebrand. big.

Kavan Loonie we saw just go nuts in the playoffs with his rebounding. And you've even got Bobby Portis who, once again, all these guys, they all sort of bring a different element, but they're similar in their build. And each one of those guys was a plus net rating in the playoffs. So all those guys contribute to winning. So that's where I sort of see Stu as a baseline in that sort of category. plays. Yeah. I think that Stewart is most likely a long-term backup center who might see some minutes at power forward just in certain lineups with certain teammates in order just to be able to keep

him on the floor because he's a valuable presence there. But yeah, I think he's a backup big who's always going to be a top-notch character presence and a very good defender. So, yeah, let's get into, you know, his profile, his profile. His. strength and weaknesses. So what's the number one strength? I mean, we'd be, of course, know about, you know, we can throw into the strengths category, his work ethic and his character and his, you know, his mentality and whatnot. Those are, of course, major strengths for Stewart. But aside from that, if we're talking his play on the floor, what do you see as his biggest strength? Well, I think it clearly comes in the defensive end. And I think I was a little down on his

room protection last season, but then I've delved into some numbers and we'll discuss this off air before. But his rim protection numbers are decent. And obviously the switchability he brings. So he can switch. We saw him switch. I think he switched the third most in the league last season for Biggs. And obviously that comes with the piston scheme of switching.

But he, I've put out a stat, but he held like the NBA.com website has like this matchups feature. He held a lot of like Trey Young, Lukuddinjic, even Chris. Paul in there, they all shot under 50% with him guarding them. So look, once again, those stats are a bit murky, but I think we saw him on the floor, his switchability. He's got those long arms. He can move pretty quick laterally. And I think that's a major asset for Stu. Yeah, absolutely. I 100% agree. He's a very, very strong defender. I mean, he's statistically speaking, I mean, very capable rim protector.

And you're looking in terms of, in terms of a defensive, excuse me, in terms of defensive field goal percentage to the rim, so rim protection. He was fourth and defensive field goal percentage among starting centers. We're talking centers to start at least 41 games last season at about 52%. So very good. Also, a very good paint protector. I mean, the guy knows out of position himself, moves his feet well. It's very difficult to move even for the strongest centers in the league.

So if you're looking at within six feet, he was six, the defensive field goal percentage within, excuse me, among starting centers. When he go out to within 10 feet, he's fifth. And 15% and out, 15 feet and out, excuse me, he's middle of the pack, but still very good. There's not much variance between centers in that area. Yeah, switch defense totally agree. He held a bunch of guys to less than one point for possession. Make you look at, I think we got Luca Tatum. Levine, Chris Paul, Demardo Rosen, Anthony Edwards, Jalen Brown, Cole Anthony, Darius Garland.

He's a fantastic switch defender. Exactly. And like at some point when you list all those names off, that you sort of have to go with the defensive stat. And that sort of backs up the argument of his switchability. Yeah. So just altogether strong defender who definitely never backs down. It does have issues of the following. Yeah.

Yeah, as follows per 100, never one hundred possessions, sixth worst among starting centers. Yeah. So, yeah, an area of weakness I see within his defense comes from, you know, we'll talk about his kind of physical downsides. The fact that he is undersized, he is long, but he's undersized and not very vertical, means that he struggles, and lot of defense is virtually impossible for him if his defender is in the right place. he isn't really a very good weak side defender because he can't really fly in and also there are some guys who can just rebound the ball over him and then score over him like whiteside did it last year and it was pretty ugly

no for sure i think just with the yeah defensive weaknesses i that dwayne casey opened the season with him playing a lot of drop and i think that's where you see that love defense get exposed and probably probably why they switched a lot more with stew on the floor because in drop coverage, he sort of struggles to contain the ball handler and the role man because he just doesn't have that, that, A, that massive frame, like,

and then B, he doesn't really have the bounce to sort of disrupt. So I think that's probably, yeah, his main weakness on defense. And it's funny because he's, whilst the switchability makes him sort of versatile, he sort of does struggle in drop coverage, which sort of eliminates some of that flexibility. So, yeah, whilst he's an excellent defensive player, there's definitely some holes he can be exposed. Yeah, I mean, in terms of his frame, definitely massive horizontally,

not so much vertically. Yeah, I've seen the guy up close and, you know, just at a game I went to that I've referenced about a zillion times in this podcast already, so I won't get into it. But the guy's muscles on muscles. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, very, very strong. At the same time, I will say this part, I mean, Yokic, amongst all the amazing things he does. I mean, he was just bodying Stewart out of the way,

which was, you know, it's really, really something. Not many people in the world could do that in any sport. So, yeah, those are definitely defensive weaknesses of his. On the whole, still a very strong defensive player, like very capable on the pick and roll largely. I mean, not so much in drop, but, you know, he knows what to do. High defensive IQ knows where to go, can relocate very quickly because he's got very good lateral mobility. And yeah, just in terms of how much you can test shots. Yeah, amongst starting centers in contested shots per 36 minutes because you don't get per hundred on the NBA stats like for some reason in this category. Fourth in contested twos, third and contested two's, excuse me, fourth, what did I get this? Fourth and contested two's,

third and contested threes and second in contested shots overall. So yeah, strong defender aside from those weaknesses. So, yeah, where else would you, or what else would you put in terms of his strength? I mean, we just went over the main one when we talked about his character. Obviously, I think, I think we sort of covered the defensive end. I think on the offensive end, we saw him develop those highway screens, which I was actually listening to James Edwards's the Bunnan Cardigan episode. He actually just dropped. and Stu actually reveals that he sort of learnt those from Stephen Adams and Stephen Adams sort of gave him some tutelage on it which I thought was pretty cool

and so I think those highway screens definitely we saw those sort of implemented I want to say around January, February and those definitely gave an added element to his offensive game because prior to that he was struggling majorly in the pick and roll as a role man. And so the fact he's sort of figured out a way to impact in the pick and roll to help. We saw that help Kate a little bit. And Kate obviously being a master playmaker sort of adapted to that well. I'm not sure that's something every point guard can flourish with.

But he found some chemistry with Cade. And I liked the pick and roll. I like him adding those highway screens. And I think if he can add that three-point shot, and I know it's a bit of a big if I believe in the shot, if he can also pop and he can come down in transition and hit some trailer threes. Yeah, I mean, just some quick stats here.

So the last eight games of the season, he shot 11 of 18 from 3, and his offensive rating shot up to 100. So prior to that, his offensive rating was like around 110. Yeah, you might not hold on at 130 though. Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I'm not that.

I'm not saying that's going to happen. Yeah, I know. I just don't know. I just don't know how to get you to joke about it. No, absolutely. Call me out on that if I was being serious with that. But I think, look, I just think you could see he can be a, not a net negative on offense.

And if he can just provide some three-point shooting, and then he can also sort of roll, he's got those highway screens to sort of open up things, then I think that gives him some versatility on offense. Yeah, so for anybody who's unfamiliar at the definition, highway screen is when Stewart would roll, and then basically just pin his man outside of the paint, just to give K to clear path into the paint,

excuse me, clear path to the basket. And Stewart can do that because of, you know, one of his other strengths. Like he's got some physical downsides, but one of his strengths mentioned before is incredibly strong and just super densely built. So he's not easy to move on offense either. And when I, in the past have been talking about Chet Holmgren and the ways in which his thinness, if he can't fix that, might really harm him in the NBA. Like Stewart was one of the inspirations for that just in terms of, oh, not one of the

inspirations for my criticism of this, you know, for my concerns over his, about his height, just one of the areas in which that could be exploited. Like, let's say he's going up against the likes of Stewart, like, Chad Holmgren is going to have very little a chance if Stuart pins him down of getting to where he needs to go. And it's like if you're pinned outside of the paint and you're even a second wait, you're going to get scored on. For sure. Quick word from our sponsor. College football is back. It's time to enjoy the tradition, the fun, and the great offers from Drive King Sportsbook. To sell. celebrate the best time of the year. Right now, new customers can bet just $5 in any team.

It get $200 in free bets instantly, win or lose. If that's not enough action, you can also place the same game parlay for a shot on even bigger payout. Just combine multiple bets into one, like which team will get the win, which team score first, and more. Yeah, any other strengths to cover before we head on to the not-so goods. Well, I don't think it's a strength, but I think there could be some short role potential, but I guess we probably haven't seen enough of that. So I would like to, I guess this sort of ties into the not so goods and the weaknesses, but I would like to see him develop a bit of a short roll passing game

because I think he can make some reads. So I don't think he's completely inept of making passes out of the short role. So I guess it would be whether he gets the opportunity or not now with Jade and Ivy in the fold. He'll ends obviously there, whether they're going to even look to that option. But I could see that potentially being something he adds to his game. Yeah, I think we'll see it would. during passing out of the short roll.

Yeah. Yeah, we already saw some. It wasn't necessarily short roll all of it, but we saw him make some nice passes in summer leagues. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, onto his weaknesses, I mean, one that I'd bring up often because I feel like it's really all that holds him back from being at the very least, like an absolutely a weight defensive center.

Because so he went over some stats that really showed. And it's like, of course, you've got to support stats with the eye test, especially in defense, but I feel like they are supported by the eye test. do it. But that keeps him, might keep him out of the ranks of like the truly complete defensive players and also causes him problems on offense is the combination of his height and poor verticality. So how does that impact things? Like we went over how it impacts him on defense. And on offense, I mean, he brought up what he can do with highway screens on the pick and roll. And that does give him some versatility. But his is relatively short height for the position

and his poor verticality mean that he really struggles on the role because yeah yeah for sure he struggles on the role and he also struggles around the basket in general there's a lot of

there's a lot of and I'm actually writing a piece on stew at the moment it's mostly a positive piece but one of the things he really struggles with is around the basket he'll have a lot of awkward sort of hook shots sort of looking throw it up shot put type shots that they just he's trying

his best just to get it over the bigger defender and look he makes some of them but i think he's shooting around the rim i wouldn't be surprised if it's some of the lowest in the league for a big man in terms of percentile um oh it is yeah he's in the eighth he's in the eighth uh per queen in the last season he was in the eighth percentile amongst bigs in terms of restricted area field go percentage the 8% very bad for center. Well, there you go. So, and that adds up with the eye test because I think the lack of bounce or verticality plus just the height, like he does have the long arms, but in and around

players like Anthony Davis, even Nicola Yoke, it's just big bodies. He struggles to sort of get the ball up and over them. Yeah. So that's, that's one of his glaring weaknesses in offense and frankly one that we probably won't really ever see a whole lot of improvement in. Yeah. I think his touch is not bad, but in the NBA is, he's got to score from below the basket as a center, and that's hard.

That's a really, that's a major downside. Like you said, just short hooks. I mean, he can establish position, but, you know, just he's going to have to inherently have to deal with more contests just because he can't get above anybody. for the most part, can't get above anybody. You know, he can post up smaller players and then they're in trouble, but that's not going to be the majority. I think it's going to be a very small minority of his possessions.

For sure. Yeah, it hurts. Sorry to jump in. I was just going to add that I feel like at Washington, he played a fair bit in the post. So I think he does, like he said, have that touch and has some moves, but in today's NBA, you're not really looking to utilize. Like maybe on mismatches like he touched on,

but against bigger body opponents, I just don't think he has the quickness to use those moves and get around guys. Yeah, he's also just got arms above him. I mean, yeah, he's scoring just from the floor. You know, I mean, he's rather he can't, well, in the post it's west that he can't jump and more just that he's short.

But, you know, because, yeah, immediately when you're trying to score from the post, I mean, yeah, you can get around good position on guys, but, you know, the fact that they're taller is going to be an issue. So, yeah, an offense struggles around the basket. Just when it comes to his poor verticality and heights, it hurts on the roll because you can't get him the ball high. Like you've got to get him the ball on the floor more or less or low.

I mean, you can't pass it above the defender. So because he can't jump up to get it and he's pretty short. Also doesn't have great hands. He drops a fair number of passes. And not a lob threat in the slightest bit, like, well, a little bit. but his catch radius is like maybe nine inches above the basket. That's a great point. The catch radius, like I actually, as we're in the off season,

I was watching some tape from his rookie season. And him and Killian actually had a few nice lobs, but that catch radius, it has to be on point, the pass. Like there's no variability where that ball. It has to be going exactly where he needs it, which makes it tough because in the NBA, you don't always have time to get the perfect pass. or space yeah i mean you compare it to a guy like marvin bagley who wasn't particularly long i think his

wingspan is about seven but it's actually it's actually seven it's he's like really yeah it's six he's six eleven seven wingspan yeah yeah uh otherwise he's a fantastic that of course is an idea but he's a fantastic leaper so you know he can get his catch radius is tremendously better than stewart also more explosive roller stewart does not cover ground very quickly that's that's another weakness of his. Like, in terms of his lateral mobility, he's very good. Like, excellent first center, excellent lateral mobility. In terms of his actual foot speed on the run, pretty slow.

Yeah. He does sort of labor up and down the court. He looks like he's giving it he's all, like, that's one of the things I love. Like, and like, we touched on when we opened it, like, but he, yeah, it's not actually producing a lot of pace. It's just this big, he's just putting everything he has into it, though. Yeah, he is absolutely. He puts everything he has into everything. But when it comes to the roll, he's not rolling explicitly to the basket. So I mean, you've got these combination of factors. You've got to get him the ball low, which is, of course, more difficult. His hands are relatively poor. That's not athleticism, but athleticism in Versaise, it's just very unhelpful. You can't catch Wobbs. He has to score from below the basket. He's just, it means big trouble on the pick and roll if he's not throwing a highway screen. And that's just, I feel like not enough to make him an effective player. and there are just a lot of situations last season when it was less the pick and roll and more the pick

and then Isaiah clogs the paint and makes life more difficult on his guard. Yeah, no, that was definitely the first few months of the season. And there were still instances of it throughout the whole season, but those first two and a half, three months of the year were really rough for Isaiah in terms of trying to figure out how to mesh with Kate but just how to exist on offense. Yeah. And I would say that on the whole of the season, he was a net negative offensive player. Would you agree with that?

I think so. I think so. I think I can't disagree with you. I'll put it like that. Like, I think that's a very fair point. I think, I just think, like, it's only year two. But I think if you just look at the raw numbers, you are correct. That statement is correct and fair.

But I think he showed signs in the past couple of months to give us. hope that he isn't always going to be a net negative on offense. Yeah. There is the opportunity cost of running him versus a role man, like Bagley, for example, who is going to provide that law presence, who is going to be just strong in the role in general, who is a very high percentage. The score in the restricted area, at least was with the piss since last season.

And so I feel like that's always going to hurt, not just fielding Stewart with his difficulties, but also just the fact that he'll be there instead of another guy who might be able do better. You might play him with Bagley this season. And maybe kind of a long-term pairing off the bench where Bagley basically plays center on offense and power forward on defense. But yeah, so that that hurts. Even the fact that Stewart can't catch Wobbs hurts. I mean, if you look at the number of teams that don't feel an athletic big in the starting lineup, I mean, Wobbs are just real nice. It's a real nice option

to have. If you look at the number of teams, yeah, the number of teams that doesn't field, that didn't feel an athletic big in the starting lineup last season, it's like maybe the Warriors who don't need it. And, yeah, like, Luni didn't have to really run the role at all. You don't really need to do much at all. Yeah, they can run. They can just, as long as they've got Steph out there, they don't even need, they don't need vertical or three-point spacing.

Steph just makes the defense shift that much, that gaps just open up. Oh, yeah. And Steve Carr is absolutely perfect at utilizing the resources he has. Absolutely. Yeah. But look, yeah, look, the lack of athleticism definitely hurts on offense, and that's why the three-point shot will make or break Stu's career to a certain extent. It'll definitely alter how much he gets offered,

because he's obviously extension eligible at the end of this year. The three-point shot is going to play a major factor in what you can offer, because as we touched on, if in today's NBA you have to be able to offer something on offense consistently that makes the defense sort of account for you, or else you are resigned to probably a reserve role. Well, even then, I mean, I would say in terms of how we played most of last season, you're probably talking a reserve role in any case. For sure.

Yeah. So I probably should have, I think I meant more like you're a spot minutes. Oh, okay. Sorry, yeah. Like, I think Stu can definitely be a part of a winning rotation. in that eight-man rotation. Yeah. Yeah.

And so let's talk a little bit about his projection. Now we're talking about his three-point shooting. I completely agree. I think he'll get there. I think he has the stroke. I mean, he had this weird thing in his rookie season in which, you know, he started shooting threes halfway through the season, you know, part way through the season was good at it and then got the yips for whatever reason,

you know, so to speak. He just started. I mean, his threes went completely off course. No, the yips. The yips is a perfect way to describe it. because yeah he touched on it in the podcast as well with james edwards and the bun and that he didn't he did not alter his jump shot at all but i feel like it looked he had the yips so bad in those that first two weeks of the season like that jump shot looked changed like i remember putting side by sides and he looks so more fluid

in his rookie year and he just looks so awkward and tense in the first couple of seasons and you could tell are the first couple of weeks. You could tell as soon as they weren't going down, the misses got worse. They were clanking off the, you know, backboard and rim. So I think the yips is the perfect way to put it, because I think the stroke is technically sound. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, it was a little bit ugly, definitely, but I think he'll get there. And bear in mind also in his rookie season on fairly low percentage, mind you, but he shot about 50% for mid-range. That's great. And I think it'll be necessary. I think we agree to be necessary. for Stewart to shoot threes in order for him to be like a viable offensive player.

I think it'd be great if he can also shoot mid-range shots, just standstill mid-range shots, which generally aren't efficient. But if he can do that, then suddenly you can't give him space in the interior as well, and that's very helpful. But let's just talk about how the three-point offense, I mean, how will we see it manifest itself in his overall game and in the lineups in terms of how the offense is played, you know, beyond the obvious. Well, I think the 30-point shot, it's obviously like you just touched on,

he needs that to unlock his offense and maintain a viable role in the offense. And I think with Marvin Bagley, just to touch on the lineup side of things, I think we're going to say Stu a lot paired with another big, whether it's Kelly, Marvin Bagley, or Duran. Because I think you need to, and I think Bagley. And I think Bagley and Duran in particular, and even Nirlins-Noelle, you want to accentuate Cade with a roll man, someone who can do some damage in the pick and roll. So I think the question for me is, at what point is, will Stu Garner enough attention from the defense, shooting corner threes or above the break threes? What percentage does he have to get to to sort of make sure that that man defending him in the corner threes?

corner isn't just coming across to clog up the roll and sort of blow up the pick and roll, so to speak. So if he can get that three point shot to, I think he's career, I think he's shot around 33%, I'll say. That's right. So if he could get that to 35, 36, but on four attempts a game, I think that makes a defense account for him. Because if he can't make the defense account for him, then that's where I have some

issues. Yeah. And just to know, 33% is actually exactly his career three point percentage. So, so well done. Yeah, you're right on the dot. So I would say that for Stewart, who's very offensively limited otherwise, I would say you want him to be in the high 30s in terms. I'm not talking about overall percentage. Just on, I'm wide open threes. Like if you leave him wide open, I think he's got to really be able to make the defense pay. So, yeah, I would look at, you know, solid 38% because 35% means that you're somewhat inconsistent, unless you're like shooting a consistent 35%, and it might sound weird. It's only like 3% difference.

But I feel like he legitimately needs to be a good shooter in order to compensate for his other weaknesses. But yeah, I mean, if he's a guy who can handle the pick and pop and can just space the floor, then cool, that gives him more utility. Yeah. Is it enough? Who knows? I mean, we can move to another subject.

there's the talk of steward of power forward of course that would depend absolutely depends i mean his offensive utility being a not even a not even offensive player i think would depend on me able to shoot three is but definitely a power forward like what do you think about the idea of steward of power forward do you think it's really viable do you think it's just in spot minutes or what my i'm i'm definitely open to seeing it i think it's definitely worth trying i think he could succeed at it but i do have my reservations with how he handles being defended by non-biggs, essentially,

because if he's playing the four on offense, he'll be guarded by, I think we might have discussed this on the last part, but he'll be guarded by big wings. So does he develop some counter moves, so he can off the catch, off a pump fake, make a move? I don't know if that's within him, but I think it's definitely worth trying because because of the importance and what he brings to the table,

I think he's the sort of player you want to invest in seeing if he can fit alongside Jalen Duran in the future and to see if he can fit alongside potentially any other bigs. I think he's definitely worth the experiment. And yeah, I do have my reservations though on both ends of the floor, how he goes guarding those larger wings and also how he's defended by them. Yeah. I think that it's less about, oh, we think that Stewart can play power forward long term.

I'm in the opinion that it's more okay. We can play Stewart some minutes of power forward so that we can have him on the floor or more. So it's not like that he has to, geez, I just completely lost my train of thought. But I think it's more just so they can have him on the floor or more when somebody else is playing center. But I have major reservations about it, like major, major reservations. I think, yeah, on offense, I think his skill set is just. is going to be very limited. Your average power forward these days isn't just shooting threes. The term stretch four is absolutely obsolete because in less, you're like, yeah. That's funny.

I forgot about that. Yeah. It's a term from like, oh, no, no, no. I remember it. I remember that was like the in thing in like the early 2010s, late 2000s. Like, no, even even until like, I think I would say that it started to disappear around 2017. And it's definitely gone as of like four years ago. because unless you're like a superstar caliber that power forward like yonis or something like that i mean you got to be able to shoot it's power forward is absolutely a perimeter position and today's NBA center is the only interior position even a lot of those guys can shoot i don't know if you remember this this is a really kind of like random moments but it was the warriors were playing excuse me the trailblazers are playing against somebody in 2015 i don't

know if the warriors or what and mike breen and uh and jeff van gundtie and Mark Jackson's part of their analysis, somebody brought up an infographic of Myers-Winnerd shooting. And Mike Bremas like, this guy is a stretch five. It's like it was on a hurdle back then. But stretch four is not a contemporary term. Yeah. I think I used to think of Power Gasol as a stretch four

because he could shoot like a mid-range jumper. Yeah. I wonder how efficient he actually was on those, like put it by today's standards. He shot three. eventually with the balls. No, he had those two weird ball seasons where I think he was a, he started the all-star game once.

Yeah, that was a little weird. Yeah, that didn't really, didn't make, that was in, actually, both of his Chicago seasons, he was in the all-star game. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, he didn't shoot many threes, but he shot some of them. So stretch four is an obsolete term, and I bring this up because I feel like just being able to shoot threes is not really enough to play power forward, play power forward very well. I mean, you have PJ Tucker, of course.

I mean, he's an elite corner three-point shooter. And yeah, his role, he played small forward, actually, a fair amount next to the honest. But just being able to shoot threes, I feel like, is not enough. Like in terms of, okay, this is a guy who cannot attack off the dribble, because I forgot to put this in his weaknesses to it as a terrible handle. And it just can't really gain off ball separation because, again, his foot speed is very poor. And again, we're talking running foot speed. his wider mobility is very good. And what does he do, one offense aside from shoot three is in that situation?

I think that's why he has to become like an elite three-point shooter. So that doesn't, like you said, up around that high 30% on good volume. Because, yeah, apart from backing someone down in the post, I'm not sure what sort of creation he has with the ball on his hand. Yeah, even attack and close-outs. I mean, I have my doubts. You can do it, I think, in niche situations. But, like, it's so, I mean, not only is he not going to be able probably to contribute very much in terms of versatility on offense.

Again, there's the opportunity cause. You could have a much better power forward out there on offense who's able to do much more in the way of everything. But, like, he was talking about, okay, you know, how he wants to model his game after L. Horford's. I feel like, I feel like that's much easier said than done. Yeah. Like, Horford is excellent at a variety of things. And Hawford has a fluidity to him, if you know what I'm like. He, I mean, like, he doesn't have a great, I'm not going to say he's Carrey Irving with the ball in his hands, but he can sort of, he just has a fluidly to him where he can sort of move around the court, just make one or two dribble moves.

And whether it gets into a handoff or just goes into a little hook shot, like Horford's, and Horford's got a lot bigger frame, I feel. Like maybe not wingspan, but height and, um, Yeah. Like, if Stu could turn into Al-Hawford, that that would be amazing. But, yeah. I would say good luck. Hoverford's actually probably not that much taller. I think he's officially six foot nine without shoes.

But, yeah, I would say with Horford, I mean, it's just easier said than done. I mean, players have ceilings in the NBA. I mean, just the skill level is so high that almost everybody has a ceiling. And small variants can be very important. but Horford, number one, I think being green on this, one of the smartest players in the NBA. I mean, the guy's basketball IQ on both, then, sky high. He's an excellent passer. On offense, not as versatile as he used to be, but still pretty darn versatile.

And it has a good handle. Like you said, he's got a good handle. He can take it to the inside, and he's faster than Stewart. Like, I remember one play, and I should have, like, found the timestamp of this before we headed into this episode. but it was making one of the highlight videos. So they were playing against, I think, the heat. So somebody closed out on Horford and he immediately curled around. So, you know, a fair amount of agility.

And then moved into the interior with a decent speed he has. He has like a half decent first step. And then he had the awareness and the passing to jump fair amount in the air and swing like a super fast one-handed pass into the corner to Marcus Smart, I think. And it's like Isaiah Stewart can do none of those things. And that's the sort of thing I was touching on that if he's going to play the for an offense, he needs to be able to do something like that. Yeah.

Which is, yeah. And Horford's just the last thing in him. He's one of those players. The more I've come to understand the game that you have such a greater appreciation for, like you said, because of his IQ. and just the plays he can make it his size. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So Horford back in 2017, 2018, I'd say, I mean, he's like the ultimate more than your stats player. Like in 2017, 2018, he averaged 13 points per game, at 7 and a half rebounds and five assists, and was one of the best centers in the league because he was good at everything. He always makes the right play. And, yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's why, like, particular as I've become more like I've become more knowledgeable like because he didn't have those

big stats he obviously doesn't jump out to your sort of casual fan uh but yeah 13 7 and 5 for a center 13 8 and 5 that's 5 assists for a center is ridiculous yeah like yokech has made assist numbers for centers look like hard to quantify but five assists for a center or a big man what do you want to call him like that's that's ridiculous yeah it's real good definitely so Becoming Horford is easier set than done. But also, this brings me to my next, but I think are also Stewart's weaknesses on defense, excuse me, on defense of power forward.

So, Stuart, so Horford on defense, like one of his weaknesses is he is not particularly fast on his feet either in terms of his running foot speed. Like he's more agile than Stewart. He's got a better first step than Stewart. It's also better leapers than Stewart, though himself is not great. But if you make him cover grounds, he'll struggle.

even though he's faster than Stuart in that capacity, he'll struggle. The Warriors exploited him this way. And his relatively poor footspeed in the fact that he was playing not pretty much at power forward on defense. I mean, he was helped by the fact that he had very strong defenders around him. But if the Warriors made him have to chase somebody or to rotate and cover distance, he had problems. And Stewart's foot speed is even worse.

I mean, I feel like Stewart at center really maximizes his strength on defense and minimizes his weaknesses because he's just guarding the interior. He doesn't need to cover ground in the interior on the run. He doesn't need to chase guys around the perimeter. But particularly covering ground in the interior. And at power forward, you're taking him out of the middle where his strengths as a rim protector, a paint defender,

are not as large. And you're putting him in a role where he has to cover grounds and he has to try to play health side defense. And he's not good at either of those things. Have we seen, though, him play a lot of helpside defense? I feel like he's always... Yeah. Sorry, and like that would be one counterpoint is maybe I'm excited to see how he goes playing

more helpside defense. I know the physical limitations make that hard. Like we touched on Big Ben earlier, but he probably, and I'm guessing there's been a sample size where he has looked poor, but maybe with it being more of an emphasis or more a part of his game, we may see some improvement there. That's the optimist in me. So, yeah, from what you've seen, though, it sounds like, I mean, the NBA's a game of inches and a game of seconds. Yeah. So I don't think so. I mean, I would say just because he's not an explosive mover, he's not an explosive weeper. I think it's hard for him to get there,

and he's not going to be skying above the basket to block shots. So I think just in terms of what we know about him, we haven't seen it, but I don't have high hopes. No, that's fair. I'm definitely interested to see how it goes, though. Yeah. So I just don't see it for power forward. I think that he doesn't have a lot to go, a lot going for him on offense and on defense.

I think you mentioned this in the last episode. Like, as a, you know, good switch defender. You put, like, Janus on him. You put, you know, one of the week's premier power forwards on him, and he's guarding that guy for the entire game. How does that go? Yeah. No, that's fair.

I guess my counterpoint might be, like, Let's just worry back getting into the playoffs first. But, yeah, maybe Stu just like, like we saw Grant Williams in, like, thrive in some games. And then in the Warriors series, he was just essentially reduced to a bench role or just really low impact. So maybe Stu is just one of those guys that situationally can flourish in some series. And then some series he's redundant. but yeah i would say uh that i mean i feel like grant williams is more mobile and that that mobility is going to be really one of stewart's biggest issues of power forward but uh you talked about

uh playoff scenarios and let's talk about how we feel steward could fit into a series in which you're just really going small ball with a center who is primarily going to be shooting threes like what the mavericks did with uh maxi cleaver lessee And last, so that game seven against the Mavericks, which was awful. Oh, the Suns and the Mavericks, rather. Terrible game. I found myself thinking, it's like, man, you know, with Luca on the floor here and, you know, just what the sons are struggling with on offense, I feel like they would be,

have been much happier to have Isaiah Stewart on the floor than DeAndre Aidan or Javelle McGee. Because, you know, he can defend, like, Aidan's kind of like more of an okay switch defender, whereas Stewart is elite. so he can defend Donchich and he can stretch the four or some. So I feel like there are some scenarios in which that would be very valuable. Absolutely. And I think I think any big that comes up against Janus, Yokic, MB, they're going to struggle.

Like those guys are who they are for a reason. That's why they're MVP's or consistently in the top three. So, and exactly right, like you said, I think having a switchable big, I think Stu could become more valuable in the playoffs. Because, I mean, we've seen Rudy Gobert, struggle, even Brooke Lopez at times, like those big lumbering bigs, you can't. And look, in the defense of Gobert, like, obviously that perimeter defense in Utah wasn't ideal.

But I still think there's an element, though, to that where he does sort of struggle because he's such a big guy, like he doesn't have that mobility to play small ball the whole game. So I think Stu's value comes from if you are matched up with the clippers who do the small ball five-out lineups or the Mavericks. So I think there's definitely value in a player like Stu in those series. 100%. Yeah. When every weakness is exploited to its maximum in the playoffs, like with Gobert, I'd say it's kind of like an average switch defender. He's not bad, but he's not good.

He's drastically better as an interior defender, like one of the great interior defenders at all time. He's amazing. Yeah. He's incredible. Yeah. But you bring him out to the perimeter. You lose his interior defense. And also, man stands a much better chance of beating him, whereas Stewart doesn't have that disparity.

I mean, Stuart is a good, is a very good interior defender and an excellent switch defender. So you can't really throw that scheme at him and just say, oh, we're going to pull you out to the perimeter. And, you know, and that's too bad for you. That's not a viable strategy against Stewart. Absolutely. And that's why I think, like, I think, and that's why I just, I love this. P.J. Tucker comparison because I feel like a player like P.J. Tucker, yes, he

contributes in a regular season and he's good, but I feel like these sort of guys accentuate in the playoff setting where it's all about matchups. And if you have a guy that can, who sort of can counteract, I don't know, some offensive schemes that are looking to exploit a big or

I just, there's a lot of value in that. And even if Stu does only give you 20 minutes a night in a playoff game or, yeah, I think with Stu, it's not so much trying to look at him as a starter or strictly a role player. Like I think he's just that versatile piece that you can start, you can have off the bench depending on the matchup and he can impact the game.

Yeah, I agree with you that you could, you definitely be a more valuable player in the playoffs when sometimes you run schemes where you just don't need a good role man. For example, you're just playing five out and trying to open up as much space as you can for, you know, Luca or whoever else. And that, you know, that could be cricket, could be Jade and Ivy. And yeah, so Stewart definitely will give you more options. You know, when it comes to centers, I mean, I feel like you look, you had three categories last playoffs, which were good at switching, offensively dominant, or had trouble.

Like if you weren't one of those first two, if you weren't good enough at switching, that opponents drawing you out to the perimeter didn't like significantly reduce your defensive value and you could not gain it back on the offensive end, those centers struggled. and Stewart isn't really susceptible to that. Like excellent switch defender. I agree. I agree with all of that. So all right, folks, that is going to be it for today's episode.

I want to thank you, Jack, again, for guesting on the show today. This is Jack Kelly. He's Jack underscore Kelly underscore 313 on Twitter. Check him out. And hope to have you on the show again soon. Appreciate it a lot, Mike. I love talking about Isaiah Stewart. It's my favorite Pistons player.

I, whilst I'm fully invested in you, I'm glad we could have like an open chat about his positives and his weaknesses. But either way, I think we've got a very versatile player in our hands who will contribute to winning. Absolutely, yeah. And I had a great time discussing that with you. So folks, as always, thanks for listening. Catch you in the next episode.