Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 12: Looking Backwards and Forwards

Episode Date: March 1, 2020

This episode includes a final rant on Andre Drummond, reflects on what the old roster was missing, and talks about what the future roster will require for success.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Driving to the Basket. My name is Mike. I am here with Tommy. We're recording for the first time in a couple of weeks. So it comes as no surprise to anybody. And as we all know, the Pistons are now an absolutely terrible basketball team, which is in the opinion of myself. And I know my co-host as well here are a very good thing. We're firmly at the end of, or for now at least, at the end of let's compete for the best possible position we can. with the highly mediocre roster we've got. So Drummond is gone. Roger Jackson is bought out. Markief Morris is bought out.

What we have left is a team that's not really capable of winning games. And for the sake of the organization's future, that is the best possible thing. The Pistons could easily tank their way into the second best draft odds. Honestly, I think it's unlikely that with around 20 games left, they will make up seven losses on the Golden State Warriors. But if you get into the top four, you have equal odds at the first overall pick. The top four teams all have equal odds.

So that's what there is to look forward to. In the meantime, this is incredibly ugly basketball. For everybody, I mean, Christian Wood is fun to watch. Aside from that, it's pretty ugly. And that just is what it is. And it comes with the territory. in some ways it was enjoyable to watch the Pistons and know that they had some chance of winning

but you know honestly it's worth giving that up for a time even if it's for a couple seasons for the sake of for the sake of a better team like Tommy I remember you and I having a conversation earlier on early on in the season maybe before the season where you were you were all about well I just want the team to lose I want change

and I was all about this season for the first time for the first time since really beginning to watch the Pistons again about five and a half years ago where I just said, do you know, whatever, I'm just going to live in the moment and try to enjoy this. That turned out to be kind of ironic

looking back. Yeah. This is going to turn on the ideal season for you. Yeah, no, I'm happy. Yeah, I'm relieved as well. I thought this team had possibly a second round potential looking back. Even if the team had not been injured,

I think this was just a very, very poorly fitting roster. You might have been able to just talent your way into a competitive first round loss if you had everybody healthy. But I think that's about as far as the team could go. But we'll get to that. So I,

just for my part, wanted to talk a little bit about Drummond. So it's over with Drummond. He's gone. He's not coming back anytime soon, hopefully ever, for my part, hopefully never coming back. I don't see why he would. Maybe in a twilight of his career, but whatever,

for all intents and purpose, is gone. And I think, in addition to just it being time, because this roster wasn't working, I honestly think that Drummond was missed cast in the eyes of many fans. I think that a sort of mystique was built around him over the course of maybe three or four seasons, like, or even,

maybe from when he was drafted that gave him a quality in the eyes of the fans that just wasn't genuine. It's what it boils down to. And I think, you know, you can call this opinion, I think that all the evidence points to this being the case is that Drummond was not a great basketball player with the Pistons. If you look at his whole time of the organization, it would be, I think, difficult to even argue that he was a particularly good basketball player with the Pistons. So if you look at, and this is also for those, I've seen it said, I've seen it said by quite a few people that the pistons failed Drummond's.

They didn't put the proper players around him. He didn't have the guys next to him that he needed. I think that sentiment kind of rings false for a variety of reasons, but we'll go into this. So Drummond at the draft, everybody could talk about how much potential he had, about when he really, started to come on the scene as far as the team's future was when Stan Van Gundy came in, and Van Gundy decided Drummond's our guy, we're going to build around him. Probably reminiscent with what he tried to do with Dwight Howard in Orlando, unfortunately for Pistons fans, Drummond never even sniffed prime Dwight Howard. And also the NBA meta, just what you need to be able to do to the NBA shifted

and Drummond just didn't have the proper skill set. So you can look at it both from just a general and a personal viewpoint. Generally speaking, the guys you need to build your team around these days are scores, either an elite point guard or these guys on the wing who can play up and down the lineup, who are elite at creating offense. Ideally, they're pretty good on the defensive end as well, but that's secondary these days. You cannot build around a traditional center.

Traditional centers are dying because they're not good on offense. They can't stretch the floor, and having a shooter at the five is very, very, very, very helpful. So immediately you have guys who cannot stretch the floor, and they have very limited agency, even down low when they have the ball. They're not going to creating offense. So you just can't build around those guys anymore. They're a dying breed because they're so limited. Rudy Gober is the best traditional center in the league, bar none.

He is out there to rebound, to play defense, and to dunk the ball. And that's what he does. That's his role. The jazz, by no means, by no means are they building around him. He's the best traditional center in the league. and doesn't even sniff him. He's a game-changing defender. But even then, he can get chased off the floor in the playoffs

because if you put a stretch five on him, then he has to go out to the perimeter, and then suddenly he can't really defend the banquet as well anymore. And he's not making up for that on offense. In fact, any traditional center on the floor is going to take away from your offense by default. So you just can't build around a guy like that. Stan Van Gundy was very wrong to think that he could.

He wasn't really, he just failed to predict or even see the direction in which the NBA was going. And then you come down to Drummond himself. So if we look at what Drummond's strengths were, like when you hear people say, oh, you know, physical beast, dominant rebounder, and so on and so forth. So what could Drummond do well?

He was a very, he was and remains a very good rebounder, you know, statistically speaking, the best rebounder of his generation. I'm given that, absolutely. He is highly athletic, that's true, very physically strong. he developed into a pretty good defender as he developed into because that wasn't the case until maybe a couple seasons ago and he's developed into a genuinely good rim protector so absolutely give him those things unfortunately oh and he's good at setting picks yeah that's a useful skill unfortunately that's where it ends i mean those are his strengths and then you look at his weaknesses and the list gets a lot longer even if we just look at as compared to his strengths rebounding valuable but not that important. It's very useful, but it's not a super, super important skill, like playing great defense or playing

great offense in particular, much less important than those two things. And then you look at, sure, great offensive rebounder, guy who waste, who would generally refuse to get the ballouts, perennially ranked in the bottom ranks in terms of efficiency on putbacks because he took a lot of terrible putbacks. It's a defensive rebounding. If you look at this entire tenure, just taken together at the Pistons, we're about as good at offensive team, a defensive rebounding team with him off the floor is on. Teams just will rebound by committee.

It's often better that way, in fact, because if a guard or a forward grabs the ball, they can get out there in transition, whereas Drummond would just gather the ball, come down with it, and then the transition opportunity is gone. The Pistons were not a good transition team with Drummond. and he took a lot of gimmies. He took a lot of rebounds that his teammates could have gotten. So the value of the rebound, he just isn't really all that great there. And his defense, though he did get better, he is not switchable.

He could do a decent job of defending on the drive against the slower forwards in the league. But you put a guard on him, he's going to get blown past. And he's just not an elite defender. Setting picks, great. there are a lot of guys who can set picks. And athletic, I mean, the league is getting progressively more athletic. And Drummond never really fully used that huge body of his. He didn't play as physically as he could have.

But so there's where your negative stand in, you know, in comparison to his, with relation to his strengths. But you can go further than that. He's a bad offensive player, like legitimately just bad. Like I said, it's very, very nice to have a guy who construct. the floor. A German can't do that. He has very little agency as far as creating offense. But beyond that, I mean, if you have a traditional big on the floor, and again, you don't have that agency, you can't stretch the four. You've got to be able to be good. You've got to be highly

efficient. You've got to be good at scoring in the paint. And you should be efficient because you're taking almost all your shots from the highest percentage area of the four. And every other prominent traditional big, and again, they're a shrinking class of players because they're just, they're outdated now. Every other traditional big in the league who's highly paid and sees high high usage, with only the exception of one player, who is Tristan Thompson, Drummond's new teammate, who is just not a very good player and is extremely overpaid. Every other traditional big does at least fairly well scoring in the pain. You look at the traditional bigs this season, the aforementioned Rudy Gober, 69% true shooting. White side, 63.5%. Nirlins, Noel is at 71%.

Mitchell Robinson is 72. Stephen Adams, 60%. That's, not great, but it's okay. Roshan Holmes, 69%. Quincampella, 62.5%. Jared Allen, 66. Jail McGee, 65 and a half, so on and so forth. And then you look at Drummond who's at 54.5%. And his career high

in the starting lineup, or at least past his sophomore year, is 55.5%. That's really bad. The guy has very little touches the score. He's bad at finishing the paint. He's bad at finishing through contact. And his shot selection sucks. That's an entirely different matter.

So the guy is just a bad score. He's just these. So in addition to not be to taking away from your ability to space the floor and to cause problems for opposing defenses, he's just bad when he gets the ball. And that's a pretty big weakness. So you have a guy who, again, we say great rebounder, good defender, but not great, and bad score. So that's what he's bringing to the floor for you.

I mean, obviously, like I said, this isn't a player you can build around regardless just because of the skill set. But Drummond just didn't really bring a great deal. In general, you go down to his problems with attitude as well. Basically, like people, it's much has been said of the fact, much has been made or the fact that Stan Van Gogh once said, oh, Andre never complained about touches.

Like, as if, oh, Andre was fine. You know, if he wasn't getting all these touches, nothing was going to go wrong. That's kind of like saying, I don't know, let's say people who compete in food eating contests, never complain about being hungry. Because Drummond got treated like royalty by Stan Van Gundy, who always found him touches. And often those were the post-offense variety of which Drummond was horrible. It's hard to get across how horrible he was under Stan Van Gundy as a post-player. This statistic gets it that Drummond's.

efficiency as a score from the post was worse than his efficiency as a free throw shooter when he was the worst free throw shooter in the history of the NBA. Van Gundy would always find those for him. When he finally took him out of the post to start the 17-18 season, he made in the center of the offense, like playmaking and handoffs and whatnot. And then when Griffin came back, excuse me, when Griffin was traded forward, Van Gundy put Drummond in the post again. Reality is what happened when Drummond didn't get his touches. He started forcing offense in the post in his face-up game, those awful isolations he liked to take that rarely, very, very rarely ever did anything. And Dwayne Casey openly ragged on him a couple

of, you know, probably about a week before the trade saying we want him to be passing out of the post all the time. We don't want him to be attempting post offense. So those are, you know, I could go further as far as, as far as Drummond's flaws as a player. you know, his penchant on for checking out and whatnot when he didn't get the role or he wanted or when things weren't going well. But, you know, it's over. He's gone. You don't need to go any further. I think it just bears saying that as far as an evaluation of his time of Detroit

and him being this, this good, great player, whatever, that he really wasn't. He only had two good seasons with Detroit. I mean, maybe two and a half if you count this one, which I don't think you really should. That season before he got the max deal. horrible efficiency, bad defense. The next year has all-MBA season, horrific efficiency, bad defense. He benefited from an incredibly weak field of centers. The top five were him, DeMarcuscous cousins, who was good,

DeAndre Jordan, who was good. And then the other top two were Dwight, you know, the fast-declining shell of Dwight Howard and Hassan Whiteside. So super overrated all-MBA season, and that helped him become an all-star as well, the weak center field. The next season, he completely mailed it in. Awful efficiency, bad defense, he regressed in every way.

And he really only had two good seasons with the Pistons, and they weren't great seasons. And for only one season in Detroit, after all those awful teams, so from 2015 onward, for only one of those four seasons, was he the best player on the team. And that was in 2017, 2018.

That's when Jackson got injured. and Griffin came in later. And further on, I mean, if you really want to get into, you know, another issue, another problem with him, and this will segue us in the next topic, this was kind of like the, you know, pretty far down the list of his deficiencies, but also a big problem or any issue in today's NBA is that you can only put one position. If you can only play center is a position lock there in an increasingly positionless league that values, above all else, your elite point guards and your wings who can play between shooting guard and center.

And you even see some guys, like Robert Covington, for example, like there's another reason why teams will sacrifice everything, including rebounding for scoring. Like you look at the Rockets who have Covington playing a little bit of center, I believe, and PJ Tucker playing center. Teams will happily go bite-sized if it gets them better offense. And these are guys who can play up and down the lineup. So I know I've been monologuing here for a while, probably longer than I'd planned.

So sorry, Tommy. But, yeah. So I think that gets this into what the team needs to do differently. I mean, the pistons are rebuilding. Hopefully it will continue past her through next season. This team had, if you're talking about those elite point guards and those elite wings, the Pistons have not had a single one since the end of the going to work era. They threw a tragically bad decision.

by the former regime, ended up with not one but two players who could only play one position and were not switchable on defense, being Blake Griffin and Andre Drummond. So the question becomes here, you know, you just look at what things, what can be done differently. So I will start just by saying the pastons have a decent foundation. If Secker-Demboa pans out, he's a guy, I think in terms of how he moves can be most closely compared to, you know, wishful thinking to Pascal Seacum, who is a guy, I mean, he's playing power forward and Seq would probably play power forward. But you can at least play defense. He's mobile.

He's a model, what you call him modern power forward, who's basically, you know, what's basically forward these days for the most part. I don't think you really think too much about power forward, a small forward. But he's not an anachronistic power forward like Blake Griffin, who really should be playing center now, but can't because he's just such a bad defender in the pain. So you've got that. I'm not sure of Christian Wood's future with the team, but he's certainly a guy who's fit to play center in the modern NBA who can stretch the floor. You know, though he's certainly got work as a defender. really growth to make as a defender Yeah, anyway

Tommy, why don't I let you wait in here? I'm starting to feel bad I've been talking for a while No, you're good man It's important to talk about The problem with Drummond was that Like you said, he was position locked And the same thing with Blake Drummond could only play center

And he could only defend slower centers. He couldn't Even if somebody was to pull him out onto the perimeter, if they had any semblance of, like, agility, like, they could sidestep him. He just couldn't keep up. And that's why it's good that he's been moved off the team because the NBA is changing. And I don't think people realize how quickly it's changing because the traditional power forward, like the Blake Griffin got, the old Blake Griffin, the guys who, you know, they weren't

quite big enough to be a traditional center, but they didn't have much of a jump shot. They're gone. And that's why people commend Blake Griffin for adding that three-point shot because he was kind of playing for his life there in the NBA because if he didn't have that three-point shot, he was going to be just backing down guys. And it would have been good because he can still draw the double team. But you're not going to see a whole lot of like the old Blake Griffin, the guy who couldn't shoot that three ball. Because even centers now are pretty much expected to. be able to shoot. You don't have to necessarily shoot a three, but you need to be able to pull the opposing center away from the paint so that other guys can drive inside. And that's something that Drummond couldn't do, because even in those years where he was facilitating the handoffs and he was doing the pocket passes from the top of the paint, his defender would still sag off of him. And Drummond was nowhere near the three point line. Or if he was, he was like, he was still well inside of it, modern centers have to be able to shoot a, they need to be able to pull

defenders away. So guys like DeAndre Aiton, I don't know how well he's shooting on threes, but you know that he can move well, he moves relatively well, which is very important for centers now because you have to be able to switch onto guys, and he can shoot jumpers. It's nothing super far away from the basket, it's nothing fancy, it's not a very quick, jump shot, but it works, and because of that, he can still make it as a center in the NBA. Drummond has been trying to add a three-point shot. He just doesn't have the touch. He doesn't have, he didn't have touch around like six feet. So the idea of him shooting threes, it's him trying to adapt, and it's commendable that he put in that work, but it hasn't become a legitimate option.

No, not even close. No, yeah. It's ugly. Yeah, it's good for the other team if he takes a three because for the most part, that's a wasted possession. Well, it's not just that. It's also that if he's spotting up the three-point line, his primary skill is rebounding.

You know, his primary thing on offense is, you know, one of his, it's his most vital skill is a great rebounder. So if you send him out to the three-point line, he can't rebound anymore. Yeah, exactly. So what the Pistons need to do is, is not try to build around centers for one thing.

Never. We've talked about this before. Center is probably the least valuable position in the NBA now. I mean, it's certainly. Yeah. The money makers are the guys who, like the good wings and guys who are like Jason Tatum and then like point guards or really good wings and guards, guys who can defend up and down the lineup and create offense for others.

and ideally drive inside and if we're just making a wish list, they should be able to defend as well. I mean, those are like the main skills, and those are the guys who you can put on a team, and those are the guys who can legitimately contend. If you're lacking in more than maybe two of those areas, you're not a complete player, and it's that much harder to build a contender with that piece.

So like the Bucks, their identity is a bunch of guys who can space the floor. And they work with Janus, even when he couldn't shoot. He can shoot the three ball better now. But before, they worked because everybody around him could shoot the three. You mentioned Tristan Thompson. In LeBron's last year in Cleveland, Tristan Thompson was moved from the starting lineup to the bench in favor of Kevin Love at the five. And the idea there was Kevin can space the floor. LeBron's not the best shooter, so it opens up the paint for him,

and LeBron was supposed to be able to drive inside. They traded off Tristan's skill set for Kevin Loves, even though Kevin was really more of the power forward. It's terrible defender, too. Yeah. I mean, I would say that Love is, he's in that unpleasant spot where, you know, you've got to be quick at power forward now, and he's not quick. It's not quick enough.

So we can either suck as a defender on the perimeter, or you can suck as a defender inside. but exactly. Yeah, it's, no, I completely agree. It's these guys for the modern NBA offense, you're always going to, the elite point cards of the league are always going to have a place. But it's these wings who can play up and down the lineup, who can score off the drive and shoots and they're just very good to creating offense in general.

And like I said, the Pistons have had none of these guys of either of those are. archetypes. And as far as, yeah, you can't really build her on a center at all. I mean, the Warriors proved it once and for all that you can just neglect the position and have a couple of guys on minimum contracts who can rebound, dunk, and play decent defense, and you can win championships. Of course, maybe the Warriors aren't the greatest example. But the heat did that, too.

Chris Bosch played a fair amount of center. But beyond that, it was just minimum guys, Chris Anderson and Joel Anthony. So, I mean, not only can you neglect center, you can't win by building her on a center. Maybe with one example, and that's Nicole Yolkich, he who is just an incredible offensive player. And just very, very difficult to deal with. I mean, he's just a dynamo in every way of offense besides attacking off the dribble, but he doesn't need to. He's just, he's exceptionally difficult to deal with. Even then, he needs a guy at point guard out the way next to him who's an elite player.

but beyond Yokic, a center cannot be your best player on your team if you want to win. You just can't. I mean, it's guys at center, they're inherently not versatile. They're going to be, just generally, just because of the size not going to be the greatest attacking off the dribble.

You want the guys who are quick, who can beat the defender off the dribble, and if they draw another defender, they kick it out for an open three. Whatever the case. I mean, that's just another reason why trying to build her on drum and even if Van Gundy had not just

he who shall not be named, just even saying his name makes me feel a little bit annoyed why the idea of building around a center, even if he hadn't been completely wrong about Drummond's capabilities, which he was, why it would have been just impossible. So, yeah.

So, I mean, that's what you really have to do what I have to look for going forward. I think, whether it's in this draft or in free agency, you've got to look for those guys. I mean, if you want to leave point, guard, the Pistons, I think you and I can agree absolutely you're going to have to draft him, period. No, no lead point guards going to come and sign with the Pistons. They're not exactly,

not right now, and they're not exactly a, a free agent destination. Well, there's not, they're just not a common commodity. I mean, the number of a lead point guards in the league is fairly small. But, and this is why rebelling can take a while, because the Pistons are going to have to find at least those few key players. Maybe they have Sekul already. Maybe he sees one of those key players. But you need to have a star at one of those positions, that guarder at the point guarder on the wing. And then you need to have at least one other guy who's at least very, very good,

if not a star in his own right. And you can say, oh, what about Blake Griffin? I'll be here the next two years. Well, ideally, next year will be a wash. Or ideally, ideally, he'll be moved for it. Dude, I'd move Blake for a second round pick in a second. Yeah. Like a second because he just serves no purpose of this team anymore.

And over the business, to lose this year, he might help them win games that they don't want to win. But also, he's an inherently usage-eating player. There's no other way he can play. And I think you can find better mentors. So... At a much cheaper cost. At a much cheaper cost, absolutely.

Like, you don't want to pay for a $35 million mentor who needs to play with the ball in his hands. Yeah. which is absolutely the case with Blake. Sure, he's improved as a three-point shooter, but he's not a good, actually not a good spot of three-point shooter. He shot much better off pull-ups last year,

and also it's just not the way he plays. So, you know, talking about this, you start to think that, you know, how are they going to pull off this rebuild, even if it's only, like, one season long, and that's when you hope that the front office is willing to throw another season as well. And I find myself doubting that Tom Gores

except the Pistons waiting past 2021. Because it's just tough to find those, you know, it's, it's tough to, to find those players that you need to really build the framework to become a competitor. Like, which teams have you seen, put it this way? Like, look at Atlanta, for example. Like, what are your thoughts on Atlanta, like, where this team can go with their current core, you know, once they grow up? Yeah, I mean, Atlanta's kind of been my dream situation.

situation. I say dream, but like, they found an absolute gem in Tray Young. I mean, yeah, he's probably the worst defender in the league, but offensively he's just so, so talented. It's fantastic. Yeah. He's just so fun to watch. And that's kind of what the Pistons need to do. They need to find a guy like that in the draft. And Tray Young's, there's not going to be a Tray Young in every draft or even most drafts. But they need to find a guy, and they need to do what Atlanta did. See, Atlanta, they didn't waste time. They were a 60-win team, like not even five or six years ago.

They were a 60-win team in 2014, 2015. I think in 2016, they were also a very good team in the regular season. Right. And they realized, you know, it was over. They had peaked, and they didn't waste time. They promptly tore it down. They didn't let the fan base, you know, get bored and walk away. they were smart enough to do it right.

They got Trey Young. They, I mean, they could have had Luca, I think. I'm pretty sure he was actually drafted by the Hawks and then traded to the Mavs. Yeah, that's right. The Mavs traded him. They traded the 2019 first and their 2018 first for Trey. For, excuse me, for Luca. Right.

And that Oxy ended up, yeah, it became Cam Reddish. Yeah. Cam was actually, he's been improving. He's been improving. I mean, maybe that was, I mean, that probably still wasn't the best trade, but it certainly wasn't a bad trade for the Hawks. You know, Tray Young, excellent player, and that's going to be a fun matchup for years to come. But the thing that I like about the Hawks is that they didn't try to rebuild quickly. They're seeing this thing through properly.

And even with this Clint Capella trade, I'm not the biggest fan of that. They kind of put John Collins on the perimeter. I think he wants to be the rim runner. And I think if he put on some more weight, he'd probably make a better modern center. But whatever. The point is, Atlanta, they saw what needed to be done, and they did it.

And it's worked out well for them. The fan base needs to be patient and the front office needs to be patient. Because you can't build this overnight. And if the Pistons do try to cut this thing short, I mean, I know Fred Van Vleet is like the guy that people say are going to is going to get the big offer from the pistons

and swipe him from Toronto. I hope not. Yeah, that would be the worst case scenario for me. I understand why people like him. And that's another thing that, you know, that I think the fans need to kind of temper their expectations because people want us to build the team on defense because, you know, the 90s team, the bad boys,

great defensive team, the O4 team, they won on defense, they won on low scores and just grinding away. You can't really do that anymore. The rules have changed so that offense is prioritized. It's the reason that Trey Young is kind of, nobody really minds that he's a terrible offensive, or defensive player because defense doesn't matter as much.

So the fans need to kind of realize, is that those traditions, if you try to stick to them, just for the sake of tradition, you're making it that much harder to build this team into a contender. I know people don't want a tank because it's against the spirit of competition, and I get that, I respect that.

But me personally, I just want us to win. And I'm fine with throwing away three or four seasons if it means getting it done the right way. Yeah. And having the right blueprint and bringing in guys that are, that work, they play well together. Because that's another thing.

People don't, some people, some of the teams haven't put together the right guys. Like, I mentioned the Bucks. The reason they work, despite Janus being a fit dependent player, is because they put the right teammates around him. Even Drummond, I mean, obviously, like you said, you can't build a contender around him, but there are players that fit better with him than others.

My point was just, I don't have said it properly, basically, that he's a player you have to build around, but he's nowhere near good enough to build around. Exactly. Yeah, that's the issue with any traditional big, like in Utah, for example. Like they had to, even a great coach like Quinn Snodder was going to have trouble making it work with Ricky Rubio alongside Rudy O'Barre. Yeah, you can really only have maybe one player that can't shoot. Yeah, I agree. I think in the modern NBA.

And ideally, all five of your players can shoot. You know, the versatility of having five shooters, you have so many more options, and you're that much harder to defend. Yep. It's almost necessary at this stage. Yeah. So you look at a team like the Sixers who have so much talent from the process. But the problem is the fit isn't there.

The fit isn't good. They have Ben Simmons who just refuses to shoot. And because of that, Brett Brown has moved Joel Embed to the perimeter, when really Joel Ambide is, he's really at his best in the paint. And then the real head scratcher was bringing in Horford, who he was a great player in Boston, but his fit with Philly is just not good because Horford, he said he doesn't want to play center. He wants to play power forward.

and I mean we've seen the results he's not playing well I think he's been moved to the bench and it's what a hundred million dollar bench player that's just not ideal 125 I believe something crazy like that so the modern NBA and when the front office assembles this new team they have to pick guys who their skills complement each other and they can't have too many fit dependent players I think like I said just one fit dependent player and that's only if it's like a Janus or a LeBron or like a guy that you think can be that player. There's Lamello Ball. I'm not a fan of him because his shooting is pretty terrible with Ilawara.

Yeah. That's just the modern NBA. Yeah, Horford actually 110,000, 97 guaranteed, but still awful. Yeah, I agree completely. Yeah, do you need to have that proper fit? You need to have a team that can, you need to have your shooters on the floor. You need to have a team that can play a fast pace. You need to have a team that can play for the modern NBA.

That was another problem with Griffin and Drummond. Pace was horrible. Like absolutely got awful. And you can look at efficiency, like offensive efficiency. But if you're scoring, I don't know, throw some arbitrary number out there, 110 points per 100 possessions, but you're playing so slowly that you're getting very few possessions, then you're scoring less points per game. Like the Pistons this season with Drummond's on the first.

floor where I think 27th ranked in pace and without him a seventh so I mean were they a better team not really because you do you say whatever you will about drummond's uh this team doesn't have much talent and I don't think he's a very I don't think he's a very good player but he still was one of the best players in the roster but uh but it's just another way you have to go for the modern NBA that the Pistons did not like it's funny looking back van Gondi decided I'm going to build around a traditional center I'm going to build around a pick and roll duo that's going to play an incredibly slow brand of basketball. And people look back on that 15-16 team,

uh, nostalgically because it, you know, it was a time of hope. But that team played at a glacial pace and was incredibly inefficient. And also bears mentioned for, you know, it's easy to look back and say,

why did they, you know, not stick with that core? Well, everybody, but Tobias Harris got much worse than next season. So, but you're right.

You got to, you got to build it, the proper team. for today's MBA. And obviously your first step in doing that is the draft right. And it remains to be seen if this front office can do that properly. Like this, the upcoming draft. I mean, I personally think if you get the first overall pick,

you just take Anthony Edwards and ask questions later. And if you don't get the first overall pick, let's say you're number three and James Weisen is still on the board and you know that the team below you wants him, you absolutely trade down because do not draft the center. Yeah. But this rebuild is, you know, it's going to be unpleasant as far as watching basketball. Now, you might, if you really want to watch the NBA, consider finding another team.

You also like to watch if really winning is high in your list. But it's an opportunity. Of course, much is made by people of, oh, there's no guarantee a rebuild will succeed. Well, I can tell you what was guaranteed. was that the way the Pistons were doing things was not going to work. The team was built really stupidly. It didn't have the talent it needed and it wasn't bad enough to get a high draft pick. And one plus out of the season is that the Pistons finally just snagged the guy out of nowhere off the trash heap and he's good.

And that's Christian Wood. We have other teams that are doing this on a routine basis. It's another thing that a good front office needs to be able to do. Like one of the reasons that the heat and the Raptors are so good this year is that they both snagged guys who turned the undrafted guys who turned out to be really good, not really good, but quite good. So you've got to hit in the draft. You've got to hit on the periphery, guys who weren't drafted, and you've got to be smart with your free agent signing.

And this is a lot goes into it. And now I know that a lot of fans think rebuild, oh, the process, the 76ers, saying, do you really want to be tanking? I know you would take like a three or four year tank. I don't know if I have the stomach for that personally. but yeah people thinking oh my goodness we're going to spend the next three or four years how long was it for the 76ers it was like sick they started in 2012 they didn't really stop I mean the last high pick was 2016 uh I thought it was 2013 or 2014 I started whatever the case

I was like that was a unique thing saying oh geez we're going to have to go through that is kind of like looking at Mount Everest and saying, well, that's just like kind of a basic hike. You know, this is what a mountain hike looks like. I don't want to do it. I don't want to go on any hikes. Because they're both the most extreme example of their kind. The process will never happen again because of lottery reform. And also, I know, Tommy, you brought this up as a way I didn't think about it until recently, that the process wouldn't have been possible if the 76ers hadn't had the bizarre good slash bad fortune, depending on how do you look at it? At their first overall, picks kept getting injured.

Like three times in a row. They had a first overall pick miss an entire season, their entire rookie season. So I definitely don't anticipate it being pleasant. And in a way, as much as on paper you would like to say trade Derek Rose, even though for, you know, even the most modest return you can get. It's nice, I think, to have some players that are

enjoyable to watch. Rose is enjoyable to watch. Christian Wood, honestly, I think he's most, ideal is just a really high-end backup center. Like the Montreal Hero mode, you bring him on with a good point guard, and they just completely hog usage and do really well. He plays maybe like high-20s per game.

But the primary reason I want him back next season is because he's enjoyable to watch. He's not going to win. He's not going to be like a, I think he's highly unlikely to develop into a top 15 center. But it's fun to watch him. And you've got to have some kind of wins like that. You've got to have some players who are

to watch and the unfortunate reality is that the Pistons young players just aren't that good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's part of the reason, like, yeah, I think like a three to four year rebuild, I can, I think I'd be able to handle that because hopefully after this year, I mean, if we do hit in the draft, that's a player that's, you know, good and exciting. I mean, this whole season, the activity levels on, like, the subreddit have been pretty stagnant. Like, our biggest spike was when Seku had, like,

an okay game. I mean, people were so excited. They just finally had something to get really excited about. And I think that's what people really want. I think once we have something like that, yeah, I mean, maybe he's not that good, or maybe it takes him a couple of years to get good. I mean, it took Ingram, what, three years to get to this point?

Three years. Yeah, he made a lot of fixes in this last, like he put in a lot of work in this last offseason. I guess shot looks completely different. Yeah. completely different but it's not ugly as fuck anymore yeah absolutely like for me personally i would rather watch these guys grow than watch mediocre basketball that i know isn't going anywhere oh absolutely i understand i agree yeah so that's what i tell myself like even watching these these fairly

boring games i mean yeah it's great to watch christian wood uh surprised everyone honestly and that's great but even as bad as it gets, the Denver game yesterday was pretty awful. It was just the most mad game ever. But you have to keep in mind. It's so that we can get a higher draft pick and so that we can hopefully break out of this cycle of mediocrity. And that's what you have to just keep in mind.

Yeah, I've... Personally, I've had a lot of fun looking at the prospects. It's not the craziest draft classes here. but, you know, supposedly 2021 is a very good draft class and then maybe 22 or 23. Maybe that's the year that it's like the double draft where the high school kids get to come back into the draft.

You know, it's not the worst time to tank. It's just what would have been ideal is if we had started this whole process like a year ago when Blake Griffin was playing well. Yeah, drumming still in value. Yeah. for something small. Yeah.

I mean, this season made it abundantly clear that Drummond had no value. Oh, man. Yeah, by the time you got to, I mean, everything aside, like with, like, there's something to be said for the fact that this guy, nobody wanted him, that I still think, like I said, in the last episode, I think the Pistons were bailed out at the last minute by Cleveland, more or less. If you have a guy who's this supposedly good, I mean, teams will actually want to try. trade for him. Teams will trade something better than a second round pick that's going to be probably

in like the 50s, three seasons down the line. And I don't think he had much, I don't think he had a great deal of value even a year ago, but he had some value. And I think the fact that he had that little value wasn't all because of his contract. I think it's just that as a combination of his contract and him just not really being that good. But I agree, yeah, if you could trade Blake last summer, perfect. Of course, that was never going to happen because Tom Gores was too excited. excited about the possibility of becoming a perennial playoff team. In my opinion, I mean, the pistons are horrible in the way of

attendance. It's awful. Like, I think bottom five in the league. And he seems to have had this impression that just being good enough to make the playoffs was going to bring the fans back. I think he also wants his team to succeed. And one good thing you can

say about Tom Gores, the guy's willing to toss him. He's willing to write the checks. Like, for Tidda, for the Rockets, completely insistent that this team whose window is not like tremendously long. They're in their championship window right now. Insist they be beneath the tax. Gores has come out and said, I want a team for which I can pay under the luxury tax. And it's like, okay, well, that's good. That's absolutely if the business ever gets to that point. That will be, they'll absolutely be an asset. But

if you want the fans to come, you have to have one of two things, and ideally both. Number one, an actually successful product. You know, a team that's, that is, you know, ideally going to be good at least, good enough at least that you can say, okay, this team is sure going to be perennially in the playoffs because they can, you know, you have a good degree of confidence. They'll be in the second round at the very least. And number two is exciting young players.

And these things both manifest the same quality, which is hope. You, you know, for people to get invested. in this team, you have to have hope that things are actually going in the right direction, that you're going to invest yourself and a team's going to do well, or that you're going to invest yourself because you know that there's this crop of, you know, of X number of very good young players who are going to be very good and are also just enjoyable to watch. So yeah, I completely agree with you. You have a team that goes out there and wins, you know, you know, is probably going to win

like 25 games, but you've got these really good young players. then people are going to watch and it's going to be enjoyable to watch. Versus if you have this team that's got not good players and a complete fucking mess of a roster, excuse the language. And you've got Blake Griffin, who isn't really fun to watch at all. And this team is clearly not going anywhere. Then they might win 40, 41 games, as they did ultimately. But nobody wants to invest themselves in that team.

I think people started to a little bit in the beginning of last season. is like, oh, you're 13 and 70, you beat Golden States. Of course, you look, you know, you look a little deeper. You see that the Pistons had an incredibly easy schedule, and most of the teams they played, including Golden State, had key injured players. But they said, oh, we've got a star and we're doing well. This thing must be had another right direction.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think Blake did bring fans back a little bit, but that was just a quick fix. It was not the solution, and that's the problem. Oh, absolutely. And they jetted. They jetted the second. Blake Griffin said this after they went and got there,

and got completely blasted by the by the by the by the by the thunder in the next game like just destroyed he said we get out we put all this work I'm paraphrasing we put all this work and get into the fans back and now we have to do it all over again yeah uh yeah I agree sorry for cutting you off like I agree that's it's not the way you can't do it you can't you can't build a team on saying we might be good enough every year just maybe especially yeah yeah no I was just going to say that's part of the reason why Atlanta's attendance hasn't suffered I mean, they were a good team six years ago, and they didn't waste a lot of time putting something exciting back on the floor once they realized they weren't going to be good. Oh, absolutely. They got cloned for a year. I mean, when they were really tanking and it paid off. I mean, they made a good choice.

They got a top pick and an excellent draft. Yep. Yeah, the draft in which the Pistons had no pick because they decided to go even more win now, like to a ludicrous degree, and completely, yeah, we've been all over that. But the Pistons, another reason why it completely puzzled me that Gores had that attitude if I want to win now,

and we can get back fans by just making the playoffs every year, is that the Pistons, this is an organization that has been terribly unsuccessful. I mean, the second least successful organization over the last, since 2008, with the least successful being the country. kings and they're in a better spot than the business right now. So I think for them, it's also been having a terrible owner and bad general managers. So basically you've got a team whose fans were driven away by these grinding years of bad management and mediocrity and nothing to be excited about.

And then suddenly you say, oh, we're going to get these fans back by being like sort of kind of good enough, maybe sort of depending on who you ask, good enough. Realistically, like making the playoffs in the seventh aid seat every year and losing in the first round is not good enough for anybody. That's what the Red Wings did for quite some time before everything crashed and burned. So, yeah. So not only were the Pistons bad for all those years, but then they were bad in a different kind of way where it's like you're not quite as bad.

And part of it, you know, part of the reason the Pistons never got back on their feet. You know, the Dumares, the way to Dumares years, because he was a horrific drafter. Chris Middleton, I would say, is the best player that Dumaar's ever drafted. Like, O'Corp was a good pick. Tashon Prince was a good pick. Neither of them were great players. Drummond is not a great player. But for the most part, Dumars in Darko, of course, I mean, is one of the worst picks ever.

Like, how do you fuck up when the other four picks in the top five are all? Hall of Famers. He was just a bad drafter. And then Stan Van Gundy took over and he was a bad drafter. So the Pistons traded this sort of just being in the low lottery every year for just being a little bit better than that. And so now and then just ended up with a terrible cap sheet and the team that didn't work and very, very little in the way of good young talent. I mean, I'd say looking forward, only Seku is really likely to really contribute to this team in a long term. And, you know, unless Bruce Brown warns to shoot and drive or Kyrie Thomas turns into something special, which I think is unlikely, maybe it will be a bench player. And maybe Christian would be on the team for a while. But I think we can agree.

The only possible foundational player you have on the roster is Seku. Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's what I was getting at. Like the teams that have good front offices and make good decisions are the ones that kind of realize when something isn't working and they get out in front of it rather than, you know, wait and see and maybe it'll fix itself. No, I mean, if we had traded Blake while he was at his peak value, which I think we could have done despite that contract, I mean, maybe we would have an extra first rounder. And maybe that would speed this rebuild along because one of the things that you need for this rebuild, for a rebuild to have a higher chance of being successful is you need to hoard as many assets as possible. And that's one area where the Pistons are kind of at a disadvantage is they really don't have any assets to trade away.

I mean, they can maybe take on some bad money with assets attached. But other than that, I mean, they just need to make good picks. So it'll be a test for the front office for sure. I mean, Stefanski's picked Bruce Brown, Kyrie Thomas. I'm not even sure who else. That's it. Yeah. Oh, excuse me, Jordan Bone and David is Servetus.

And, of course, that fiasco with the 30th overall pick, that was just bad. Somebody suggested it was a quick pro quo in order to bring Derek Rose to Detroit because Arntelham's son represents Adavia Serbius. Who knows if that's true, but it was a mess. That was botched horribly. Yeah, and that goes back to the fact that, I mean, it seemed like they were trying to stay under the luxury tax. I mean, they were playing that so closely. Well, they would have had to nuts. They wouldn't have had space for Christian, but that's basically it would have been.

Right. And that's part of the reason that it's good that they finally have some flexibility. I mean, now you don't have to pass up on good players like Kevin Porter Jr. who just put 30 points up in a overtime win over the heat. Yeah. I mean, if you have one thing, he has. And you have money, you can bring. those guys in.

Yeah. He has a comically bad defender. There is that. But yeah, it was dumb not to take a flyer on some better talent there. If not him, then, then who is it?

Casey. Yeah. Or, like if they had gotten a number 30 and Kelton Johnson, who has not been good so far, but if Kelton Johnson has still been available and if they hadn't taken him, I mean,

I don't think they would have gone that far. That would have been peak insanity because I got to think he was on their board in the mid-teens. Like, he really dropped. but yeah that that made no sense and that was kind of like the ultimate win now in the draft thing without trading a draft pick you're still you want like I think they they had the plan that they wanted a guy who made it stash it came into a higher pick and they're like uh okay what are we supposed to do now okay let's trade down and we'll take a guy with a uh who can be stashed and

we'll take a guy with a two-way contract and now problem solved right so yeah it's unfortunate because they had the 30th pick and those guys are guaranteed contracts. So they had to trade down. It would have made more sense ultimately for them to just, I mean, ThonMaker. I mean, that's part of it. I mean, ThonMaker, it's like, sure, not a bad idea to take a flyer on a guy who everybody thought was going to be good talent. But ultimately it would have been better off just trading Stanley Johnson for nothing. I don't think the bucks could have done that in terms of, you know, that was all part of the merit ofage trade.

Yeah. But, you know, the Pistons just ended up. just in typical Pistons fashion, just boshing this, basically just ending up in this position or the worst position at the worst possible time. Because you end up in this position where you have to rebuild. You're very limited on young talent. You're in what is looking to be a very weak draft year. And if you, and they're also a team that's probably not going to be willing to punt the next two seasons. And if you want to take on those bad contracts in exchange for assets, they have to be contracts that last through the season after next because 2021 is the big free agent year.

Teams aren't going to be trading out of bad contracts to get it this season's free agency class because it sucks. So, and I think this is an organization that's not going to be willing to punt two seasons. Now, I think what goes along with a necessary quality of a team that does what needs to be done when it needs to be done, as you put it with the Hawks, for example, is ownership. that's willing to play along. I mean, Hawks' ownership clearly didn't get in the way. The 76ers ownership clearly didn't get in the way. With the Mavericks, I mean, Mark Cuban was entirely on board. I mean, don't get me wrong. Mark Cuban has made a share of screw-ups. Like, I'm not sure if, I think a lot of people don't notice. I mean, they've been open about this. Mark Cuban,

you know, makes no pretences about this. In the, I remember this 2013 draft, I believe, whenever it was that Yannis went in the Pistons grafting, KCP. Nelson, who's the when Doni knows and the GM of the Mavericks went to Mark Cuban he said this guy Janice is the future he's going to be great that this is really the guy

we got to draft him and Mark Cuban said no I want to trade down so we'll have more cap space to offer Dwight Howard and you know like yeah like $200,000 and it was something small like some small amount of cap space

and in retrospect I mean I think whatever the case this was never going to sway Howard on like $500,000 a year and I think it was $250,000. $50,000 a year in his first year or thereafter as well, whatever it would have been.

Maybe totals like, you know, its salary increases, maybe totals like less than a million and a half. And so they missed out in the honest as a result. But Mark Cuban also came out later and said, oh, yeah, we're deliberately trying to lose games. He got fined for it, of course. Yeah. What was like half a million or something like that? I don't know.

He's the most fine owner in the history of the NBA. And I don't know. I don't remember if it's the history of sports. I don't remember. Our history of major American sports. I don't remember. Whatever the case. If you look at the teams that have been the least successful over the last decade,

they are the teams that have what are why we believe to be the worst owners in the league. The Knicks with James Dolan, the Kings with Vibrault. The Sons with Sarver. The Hornets with Jordan and Pistons with Tom Gores. Those are your least successful teams. I get the feeling I'm missing somebody, but I cannot remember who it is. is. Minnesota has a really not so great owner either. Oh, right, the Bulls. Their owner who continues to employ Garpex. So, you know, that can easily gut your team, having a bad owner,

can easily gut your team. Having a good owner can be a massive boon to your team, a guy who who hires the right personnel and stays out of their way. Look at Boston for an excellent example of that. So, yeah, you hire Danny Aange, you hire Brad Stevens. and you stay the hell out of their way. Done. And you have a successful team. Of course, things didn't go exactly as planned, but nonetheless. Yeah, I mean, yeah, obviously, Danny Ange is probably one of the best executives,

but that's another thing. I mean, I feel like they really might commit to this. I'm optimistic, which I know I haven't been for the last couple years, but I really do think they'll see this through for at least a couple years. I think, Stefansky mentioned, you know, they were going to consider a lot of different options with this new cap space. And he said they might take on bad money and with assets attached. And I hope that's the route that they take. They're not going to have a ton of cap space probably once they actually re-sign the seven or maybe not resigned, but they have to sign like seven other guys to fill out the roster after this season.

but that's what I hope they do with that money. I mean, yeah, they have a lot of it tied up in Blake Griffin. But, you know, it's better than nothing. You know, there are much better ways to go about rebuilding and starting with more assets than just your own first rounders because I don't think the Pistons even have their second rounders. But it's not the worst thing. You know, hopefully they make some good picks.

I think Bruce and Kyrie in the second round, those are fine picks. Sekudumboya at 15. Seems like it'll be another good pick. I'm perfectly fine with what Stefansky's done to this point now that it seems like they're really going to rebuild. And if they do three years and they make two good picks, I'll be more than happy because the NBA has like some semblance of parity now. I mean, this is like the first year and like two or three years where it doesn't seem like you know, there's like a clear-cut winner or clear-cut champion. Oh, I think it's great.

Yeah, I mean, I think you only have, you only have three maximum four teams who can conceivably win a championship. Yeah. But that's two, maybe three more than he had a year ago. I mean, let's be honest, the Raptors would not have won that championship of Golden State of Unhealthy. Right. So. But that's the thing. I mean, these teams, I mean, the Bucks have Janus and who would their next best player even be?

Middleton. And then. Middleton's a good player. Yeah. Yeah. And then the Lakers with LeBron and AD, and then the clippers with PG and Kauai. There's no like four superstars.

There's four stars team anymore. It's not even a three-star team anymore. Yeah, and it's great because the amount of talent that you need to become a contender is a lot lower now. It's a lot more attainable. So now seems like a good time, as any, I guess, to distance ourselves from the past and the mistakes that we made. made, learn from them, and hopefully Stefan Skiy and company can make the right picks and make all

the right decisions moving forward, or at least enough that we can take this team past the 500 mark that, you know, we never really hopes we could get past. Well, or we can go a different group, you know, like Stan Van Gundy, when he traded for Blake Griffin said we're just going to build differently, we're just going to buck the trend. The Pistons can sign five traditional centers to, you know, to put up the starting. lineup and it'll be completely unstoppable inside, right? Would that work? Yeah, sure, that would work, definitely. Just have all five of them just hang out in the paint, right? Big ball. Big ball. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I brought this up. And, you know, I digress here, of course.

But the interview we gave after the Blake Trey T, admitted that the Pistons no longer have perimeter shooting and said, well, we're going to make the rest of the league come to us, which I think I've likened to somebody who can't win races in NASCAR saying, well, we're going to start we're going to ditch our Formula One. Or maybe I'm just completely butchering Formula One NASCAR the same thing. But we're going to ditch our super fast race car and we're going to race in a Super Route back.

And we're going to make other teams come to us. It's like, no, you're just going to lose your fucking races. It's like you're not going to win anything. And, yeah, of course, I've said it before. I'll say it again. I think it was just the unbelievably irresponsible act of a guy who just was going to do anything to save his job.

but whatever the case just brings back to us back to what we said before about poor fitting rosters. And I know I'm going way off track here, but I've got to say that I think even if this season's roster had been healthy, it would not have been particularly good. And I think we saw a little bit of that poor fit when Griffin came back and suddenly things just weren't working. The things got worse, not only because he was playing poorly, just because he didn't fit a system that was passing the ball. a lot more and shooting it from the perimeter a lot more and so on and so forth. But I think we can just say we're glad that that mess is behind us now, even if the future may take a little while to come together. But I could get excited about Anthony Edwards, certainly.

I can get excited about a lot of these guys, man. I'm looking into these guys and watching their highlights. It's exciting for me. I'm sure we'll get a chance to talk about that. Yeah, it just bums me out that the draft lottery is still like four months away. Yeah. something like that three and a half months so anyway that'll be it for today's episode thank you all for listening and we will catch you next time