Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 125: Lineup Changes, the Rookies, and Killian Hayes (with Jack Kelly of Detroit Bad Boys)

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

This episode, featuring guest Jack Kelly of Detroit Bad Boys, goes over the play of Jaden Ivey and Jalen Duren so far, details Killian Hayes' stretch of improved play, and talks the changes in the starting lineup.   Note: Last week's episode did not post properly. Sorry about that.

Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to another episode of Drive into the Basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike here today. Once again, I'm a Jack Kelly of Detroit Bad Boys. Jack, always a pleasure to have you on the show.

No, as usual, Mike, I love hopping on talking hoops with yourself. So, yeah, I feel like we've got plenty to discuss today. It's our first time recording with actual real basketball to talk about.

So yeah, because I dive in. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, like all that said, let's dive right into it.

So we have a, last night's game against the Raptors, which was interesting. Well, people would say, I've heard it put the crafters because they were missing like three of their top four scores. But yeah, it's been interesting, more interesting basketball, with some frustrations, some high points. And what would you say for you has been the biggest high point of the season so far? For me, it's just honestly been seeing Jaden Ivy and Jalen Duran how they've panned out.

Obviously, I think Ivy's been probably been better than we could have expected. Now, that's not without his faults. I think he's, you know, his struggle with turnovers, his pacing, three-point shots come and gone. But I think on the whole, you see the sort of player that we envision. You can see what he can potentially be down the line in terms of just his athleticism. Just even his passing as being one of the main things for me. I've really enjoyed. Now, as I said, he has had some turnover issues.

But I think the reads he's made, even some of the stuff in the people, pick and roll. I've just been pretty impressed with. Particulars were only 15 games in. So I think Ivy's probably exceeded my expectations a little bit. And then Jalen Durenne, I mean, I think we all expected this kind of player, but especially on opening night when he had that double double against the magic. I know that was a few weeks ago now. But yeah, just seeing those two and how they've already had an impact on this team

and just that they're ready to go straight away. So those two have been the main highlight for me as well as, look, Cade's been up and down, but I still think we've seen some flashes. Some of these stuff in the mid-range has been really cool. And then, yeah, I think Bogdanovich on the whole was a really nice pickup as well. And finally, I've really enjoyed watching Stu. As you know, I'm a big Stu guy, and I'm sure we'll get him a bit later.

but yeah, I think Stu's having a career year and yeah, I've been really impressed with him as well. Sweet. Yeah, I mean, I'll just go back to, all the way back to Ivy. I've got to agree with you about him being a bright point. He's got his warts. And for me, like, I think he's got a top two ceiling in terms of offense in his draft class and in the lottery. I mean, I've been very impressed with Boncaro, of course, who's definitely in a different situation, but has done very, very well. Like needless to say, he's done very, very well. No, for sure. Palo is almost so good, you don't even consider him a rookie. Do you know what I mean?

I've sort of forgotten that he's a rookie. Yeah, he's been surprisingly good. I did not expect him to be so good. So it's so good at this point. He isn't a great situation for him. I mean, the magic have some decent pieces. He gets to play on the ball and do whatever he wants, and I think that's the ideal situation for him.

It's one of the reasons that I wasn't really hot. If the persons had gotten the first overall pick, I wasn't really hot on him because I don't know how you make he and Kate work together. but it's not here nor there. So I think Jay and Iby's got a top-to-ceiling in terms of offense in his draft class, but it's going to take him some time to get there. He's still raw in some ways. In the meantime, it hurts a little bit seeing Matherin do so well.

But, you know, that just is what it is. But I agree with you on the passing totally. He attracts tremendous gravity on the weight of the basket. Every team, every defense he's been up against respects him a great deal. He always, always attracts help. And he's not like an elite passer, but he is very willing to pass. and often to find the open man yeah for sure i think he's driving kick game i mean even if without that in-between game that's clearly still developing like he's just been able to blow by guys um off the catch

like with at will there's no there's really not many guys that have been able to stay in front of him so watching him drive and kick and being willing to make that pass to the corner shooter or drop off a pass to the man in the dunker spot that's been really encouraging for sure yeah definitely And of course, it's always a lot of fun to watch him play. Now, one thing about last night, I mean, one thing that I continue to think about is the fit between he and Kade. Now, there are a couple things to account for here. Number one, that they both have things to work on in their game, particularly Ivy. They're definitely Kave with the shooting.

Number two, they're operating under coach in Dwayne Kesey, who has his strengths in some areas. Unfortunately, running an offense is absolutely and utterly not one of those. And so, Ivy, whether it's Ivy or Kabe at the ball, the other one ends up. just typically standing around and doing nothing. It's typically Ivy because Kate is on the ball. So we just saw really a different aspect to him last night against the Raptors, which was really the first time he was allowed to be the primary hand or throughout an entire game. Yeah, for sure.

And we saw, I mean, the one thing I noticed, particularly in that first quarter against the Raptors, was the Raptors length really overwhelmed Jaden. I mean, it overwhelmed the whole team in that first quarter. I think they had nine or ten turnovers, which is just, it's almost a game's worth. That's almost the game's worth. But it was really cool to see him adjust. I caught up and watched the fourth quarter of that game. And clearly down the stretch, I think Jaden had 13 points and four assists in that last quarter

and almost led the team to victory. So to see him adjust in game like that is certainly encouraging. And just with the fit with Cade, I think there's still a lot to play out there. I think that can still be a really nice one-two punch. And they have a lot of complementary factors playing. alongside each other. But I think the main thing I'm interested with those two is that you can stagger them and you're always going to have a primary initiator on court with those two.

Yeah, definitely helpful. I just feel like Dwayne Casey is not going to be the one to unlock the synergy between them. Dwayne Casey is not very good at getting the most out of any given player at all, let alone two players at once. See, I disagree. Are you talking about player development? No, no, I'm talking about on court, just on court. maximizing players on the court.

Like last night I was watching it and I was thinking, like, my goodness, how much easier would Jaden Ivy's wife be if he were playing under a coach whose offense was actually able to create driving lanes, for example, and who didn't rely so much on one-on-one offense, and there's a tremendous amount of it. And that was a characteristic of Casey's offenses going all the way back to, you know, his entirety of his time in Toronto before, before Messiah was Jerry said, we're not going to let you run the offense anymore and gave it to Nick Nurse and Casey won coach of the year as a result. So I just look at it and I'm like, okay, you have Kate and Ivy, you put them on the court at the same time.

Under a coach who can actually run an offense that maximizes the both of them. And then you might see something really special. But just for Ivy, it's like imagine Kate attracting attention on the way to the basket. And then you've got the all ball moving to get Ivy the ball and blaze through an open lane, something like that. Yeah, I see that. I think we've seen some of that, though. I mean, I definitely, I'm not here to say, Dwayne Casey's a offensive tactician. extraordinary. I think clearly

offense is in his strong suit and I understand that. I still think we've seen, like I think Kate and Jayden are clearly they're players who want to dribble the ball. I'm not sure we've seen them do a lot off ball. I mean, I would like to say, I've seen

Jayden have screen set from him in the corner coming off pin downs and attacking getting downhill. I think with Casey sometimes like, I definitely sort of agree with those points to an extent. But I still think these guys are so young and I'm not sure these players are ready for a high level offense.

I mean, I still think they're trying to find themselves in the league. They're trying to work on the individual skills. And I guess, yeah, at times it can be a bit ISO-heavy and you can hold that against Casey. But I don't necessarily think bringing in a, I don't know, an offensive practitioner, it could help a little bit. But I also just think these guys need space to grow and develop. ballot. I agree. At the same time, I mean, I'm not advocating that Casey be fired. It wouldn't make me sad. Just I know it's not something that's like, would it be a benefit this season? Because I think that

continuity is good, and he is good with young players without a doubt. He runs a very good locker room. But I just, I watch him coach. And I've got bad coaching fatigue. I mean, it's, it's been going on for, I haven't been watching for like all the last 15 years. I've been watching for, you know, for nine plus seasons. and the Pistons have had a below average coach in all of those seasons. And I call Casey a below average coach. In terms of offensive coaching, I think he's bad. I think Van Gundy was worse. I even want to think about Van Gundy.

It was so frustrating watching the whole season when he was coaching. At least Casey is likable and not as bad. For sure. I think the players make the coach, though, to some extent. And I think Detroit, in the past 10 years, at least since I've been a fan, I've never had the roster too. And I'm not going to stick up for Stan Van Gundy, but I also think, because he did contribute to that roster itself, but we saw him have a ton of success in Orlando. So I'm not saying he's a greatest coach in the world, but I think the roster makes the coach to a certain extent as well.

Trigger alert. Absolutely trigger alert here. All right. We've got somebody defending Stan Van Gundy. So I'll dive into this briefly, though I hate talking about the guy. I don't agree. I think, yeah, back in this time in Orlando, he was an innovative coach. coach. And by the time he got to Detroit, the NBA, like in his first couple seasons, the NBA was really only starting to evolve in a spacing and efficiency era. And by the time you got to his third season, I mean, I think he was hopelessly outdated. The guy, of course, was extremely rigid, disdained analytics and completely, in my opinion, utterly failed to maximize his players just and focused much, much more on what he would like to be true than what was actually true. Like, for example, in 2016, 2017, playing like the crippled Reggie Jackson as

the center of his offense for 50 games. But so I agree that, of course, a coach can only work with the roster that he has, but I think some coaches are just bad at what they do. And I think that, I think Casey is a decent defensive coach. I think he's always been a weak offensive coach. And even more so as the NBA has evolved. No, that's fair. I think with Casey, I'm nowhere near.

Like, I've seen a lot of talk about fire Casey. And as you stated, that's not necessarily what you're, you're arguing or putting forth. I think. It's also not going to happen. Yeah. Yeah, that as well. I think his relationships with, obviously, Troy Weaver and especially Tom Gawler's, a far too strong for him to be fired this season.

But I think with Casey, I'm just going to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him some leeway until this roster can find some semblance of health. I mean, obviously we had Stewart go down last night, K'd out for at least another two to three games. So, I mean, it's just been hard. these guys, you know, you have Bagley come back, Birx's out, and then now Stewart's out, and then Kay, it's just been hard to get.

When you don't have that all-star player, or that superstar player, injuries to key rotation pieces just make it hard, especially on a young team. So I'm willing to give Casey a bit more leeway for the moment. Yeah, I think at the same time, it's possible to have a, I don't want to call it a bad roster, but a roster that's obviously not going to compete,

but also have the coach be bad at maximizing that roster. And I think that's the case with Casey particularly, you know, particularly on offense. Now there's been a lot of criticism of the switch everything defense, but I'd say on offense, he has a long track record of getting less than the sum of his parts where his players are concerned. And it's less that I think that this is a big problem at the moment.

I mean, this team is not going to compete for anything, in my opinion. I mean, even with everybody back, I don't think this team is going to step the plan. You know, maybe I could eat my words, but it's just the week has a lot of talent and it's currently very competitive. But I'm tired of it. I'm just tired of watching bad offensive coaching. That is fair.

But I would just say, I don't know. How many wins did you have this team roughly winning prior to the season? I predicted 31, I think. I mean, it was just like I was recording an episode with another guest. And I said 31. He said 32. I don't know why 31 was the number that came to mind. but I thought that they could be a decent team.

I did not expect them to make the plan. Yeah, for sure. I had around 27-28, and I think so we're pretty aligned there. I just think, yes, this team, the blowouts have been a bit disheartening, but I don't know. This team is, in my opinion, a bottom 5 to 6 team easily in the league with the talent. So, I mean, I think Casey's just been used as a scapegoat largely, and once again, I'm not referring to you specifically.

particularly I'm talking about just amongst the fan base because the expectations were probably set too high for most heading into the season. And also players aren't just going to, you know, development's not linear. So, I mean, Sadiq Bay taking a step back or having his struggles, Kay being up and down in year two. I mean, we saw Jason Tatum come in to LCA the other night and dropped 41.

It took him to halfway through his third season to really start to break out just before COVID. So, yeah, I think expectations are probably a little bit high coming into the season. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm not upset about the losses per se. I did not expect this team to win. I would just much, much, much prefer to watch the Pistons lose under a better coach and a more functional offense.

So I don't have to watch it and be frustrated. So, like, for example, you've got, like Marvin Bagley in the roster, for example, like we had the change in the starting lineup last night, which, you know, of course we should talk about. But you've got Bagley on the court. and okay, suddenly you've got a vertical spacer. And at times he's been on the court with Jay Wenduron, it's like, okay, you got two really solid vertical spaces.

But Casey doesn't like Lob plays. He just doesn't like it. He's rarely ever used them, I think, when Bagley was getting set up for Lops last year. It was because Cade, I mean, Casey often lets, like, his premier players just do whatever they want to. And I think Cade was running those plays. But, like, these last two games, I mean, like, Bagley is not, he's basically, like, left in the dunker spot and not, he doesn't move. and the scheme doesn't have him moving.

He's not rolling hard for lobs. And we know that Marvin Bagley loves to roll hard for lobs and to get high percentage finishes in the interior, which he's good at. And if Casey doesn't do that, he runs an offense that doesn't prize that, relies on a lot of ISO offense. Well, but I see,

but we did see Marvin Bagley as a role man a ton last season. Yeah, last season. Yeah, exactly. I think, I think that was largely with Cade, though. But Bagley's played, what, 30 minutes this season? And I know Linny's first game when he came off the bench, him and Doreen together was just, that was a car accident. They're spacing.

And to be honest, in that, Jalen Doreen was being used as the role man when I thought you probably should have kept him in the darker spot and used Bagley as the role man because they were just getting in each other's way. But I thought last night, from what I've seen, I thought Stuart and Bagley, their spacing on offense was pretty good. I mean, Stu was obviously on the perimeter. He hit a corner three, I believe. And then above the break. Actually, you know, Marvin hit a three as well. I actually thought they didn't really get in each other's way. And yeah, I think with the lob plays, I think pick and roll, that is largely on the

ball handler, whoever is bringing up the ball up the court. Oh, I disagree with that. Like, for example, you go back several seasons, and we had this one player whom you were a big fan of, and I absolutely detested. You know, he was pretty tall. He liked to pat his stats. And you, like, for example, like, yeah, he just, he didn't get lob plays. Like, he had very, very few lob plays throughout, for example, like, this was his last season.

I remember this statistic. He just wasn't, a lot of plays weren't being run for him off the roll. Whereas the previous coach, we talked about who I really disliked. I mean, he was getting, he was getting lapped the ball all the time. And you had some overlap there. I think even back in 2018, 2019, Reggie Jackson, same point guard he played with for a long time. You just didn't see drumming shit. I said his name.

Whoops. Okay. Anyway, you didn't see him. I'm not bad-mouthing him here, but you didn't see him really get much in the waveblobs at all. So I think it's more of a schematic thing with Casey that these are just the sorts of plays he really doesn't like. And like in his old Toronto offences, he didn't really involve Alan Schoonis all that much. He didn't really focus on getting big's high percentage looks under the basket. It was just a lot of ISO with de Rosen and Lowry.

Yeah, that's fair. I do recall JV dominating the pistons, though. back in the day. He used to always dominate drum and it was like it was his one game of the season where he'd just go crazy in the post. But look, I'd have to look into the numbers for the pick and roll stuff, but the fact we saw Bagley used heavily featured as a role man last season, if that's on, if we're saying that's because of Cade, then you also can't say it's on Casey.

Do you see what I'm saying there? Yeah, let me clarify. So there are some players and it's generally their veterans, the veterans on the team, whom Casey doesn't really coach. I think Cade is one of them. He basically just at least last season he did near the end of the season, just let Cade go out and run a zillion pick and rolls and do whatever he wanted. And I think in that situation it was Cade calling the plays.

I think that also some players, and this was the case with Jeremy Grant as well, have the latitude whereas others don't. And I don't think that, like, we don't really have one of Casey's go-to players of that sort at this point. But it was also for a very brief period of the season. I don't know. I mean, I know that I'm saying one thing and not saying the other. but I think that was because of the latitude that Kate has and I don't think anybody out in the

court last night had that degree of latitude. Yeah, I would also say none of the players on the court actually have the pick and roll chops that Kate has. I think he's a pretty, even with his flaws with some turnovers and stuff, Kate has an ability with his height especially to just sort of, he's an excellent passer and I think Jaden in the pick and roll while I've been impressed, it's also been with his finishing in the pick and roll, not as such, his passing. So, And I mean, I guess maybe Killian does have that element to him with his pretty good pass for in the pick and roll. But just with his, I mean, Killian's improved. I'm sure we can talk about him at some stage.

But with his lack of finishing around the basket and that sort of thing, his gravity in the pick and roll isn't great either. So I take your point while I probably disagree. Okay, one thing. One thing we can agree upon, I'm sure, is that, for example, you've got Bagley, if you've got Dura under the Dunker's spot, they could just cut hard to the basket for a lob while Ivy is slashing in while Killian is sort of slashing in. But the scheme has them just standing still or it has them just around the basket when they're never going to get a pass. So like that aspect of vertical spacing isn't used and that also wasn't used last season with Marvin Bagley. Yeah. And it wasn't it wasn't used with Drummond either

when when Casey was coaching him. In terms of the players jumping from the dungeon? No, just in terms of like just along the baseline for example, just having those those players schematically aren't used that way, like, just to have, and this is an issue I have with Casey back when Drummond was still on the team. He would rather just have one of those players packing in a paint or just kind of standing like a little bit outside of the lane and then going in for a rebound rather than have that player. And like I think back to like an example, I don't think too highly of Doc Rivers coaching, but how he utilized DeAndre Jordan, DeAndre Jordan, who just did a ton of cutting. You know, it was, you know, you had your three guys. I mean, let's say

Blake Griffin was being used as the role man and DeAndre Jordan would just be cutting hard of the basket to catch a lob. Yeah, like cutting from the dunker spot. Yeah, cutting from the dunker spot. Yeah, just cutting along the baseline and just leaping for a lob. And we never see Casey use that. I feel like that's really a staple for any big, for any athletic big we can play above the rim, and Casey never does it.

Yeah, I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for this because you brought it to my attention because I always see guys in the dunker spot. And sometimes I note their activity, sometimes I don't. don't really pay attention. So I'm going to keep my eyes peeled, Mike. They're on the ground. I can tell you that much and they're not moving very much. Yeah. I mean, I just, I think about Jared Allen, for example, who just gets like a ton of these plays where he's just finishing above the rim on offense that somebody else has created. But just off ball movement, which don't see very much with Casey, I feel like in general.

So, yeah, I mean, we got into protracted Casey discussion. And like, you know, I'm not, it's just my opinion and in my fatigue. over, you know, over how, I have a low opinion of him as an offensive coach, put it that way. I remember watching the Raptors losing game four against the Wizards back in 2015. They were the third seed, I believe, against the six seed. They got to annihilated. And I'm like, the Raptors have got to fire this guy. Like, he has taken them as far as he can take them.

It's not going to get much better than this. I also just don't think those Raptors teams were, I think they overperformed in the regular season. They didn't have a number one option on that team ever. Oh, I disagree. Who was the number one option? DeMartha Rosen. He's not a number one option on a championship team. He disappeared.

He disappeared. He had playoff. Him and Kyle Lowry, he's had historical playoff struggles. I think they were never, I think the Raptors overachieved in the regular season, or were just a solid regular season team and got found out in the playoffs. And you could say that. So in Casey, you could say they just didn't have that number one option, that number one playmaker, jumbo-sized playmaker, like, to lead them through, obviously, and they'd come up

against LeBron every year. Yeah, but the third time they came up against LeBron that was against the We Got a Squad LeBron team, which was really pretty weak. I feel like the Celtics, you know, the Celtics were like shooting like slightly better away from displacing them out of the conference finals and going to the finals against the Warriors of the Rockets. We could easily have had a Rocket Celtics final that year. So yeah, that was LeBron. George Hill. Yeah, I know. And that team was not very good.

And the reason Casey got fired was he had a same playoff foibles, like of just having way too much difficulty being imaginative and especially adapting. Casey is very, very bad. I joke that he's very, very bad at adapting. I joke that he's a robot and they can only update a software between games. He just really doesn't adjust within games.

But the issue was that they blazed through the regular season on the back of a Nick Nurse formulated offense. And then in between series, which the Cavaliers came very, very close to losing to the Pacers in the first round, and then came very, very close to losing to the Celtics in the third round. They ate the Raptors for lunch. And yeah, so were those teams like championship caliber? No, but I feel like they underperformed in large part because Casey's a bad postseason coach.

And their players weren't good enough. I think the players weren't good enough to win a championship, but the issue is that they got their clocks cleaned by the Cavaliers. I mean, they won those two games in 2016, but for the most part, they just got to destroyed. Yeah. And even against worst teams, they, they struggled. I just think, I, I, look, Raptors fans, they are, they would know for, they would

know best out of anyone and you hear consistently adjustments and rotations with Casey. So I won't go against what they say. I also just don't think their two best players were good enough to surpass the player like LeBron James or take you further in the Eastern Conference finals. Yeah. I mean, at the same time, you had, like you had a team, much very much very much. Victor Oladipo is by far the best player for the Pacers, almost beat LeBron in 2018. And the Celtics who had, like, I think it was, uh, Jay, Jalen Brown was in the second year.

And Jason Tatum was a rookie. Terry Rosier. Terry Rosier, exactly. Kyrie was for better or worse, the best player on that team and he was injured. Yeah. And they still almost beat LeBron. If he came very, very close with like a, yeah, with a roster of two young players, Al Horford, who was very good back then, Marcus Morris and Terry Rosira.

I believe was the starting lineup. Yeah. All right. So we've talked about to Dwayne Casey, I realize, for like 20 minutes now. We've gotten way off course. So why don't we go, why don't we move on to, we talk a little bit about Duran, actually, who I feel has been very impressive on defense and as a rebounder. Though he has the struggles that I expected on offense.

Yeah, for sure. I think Duran, I mean, after struggling a little bit, well, rebeying was a little bit of concern in Summer League. I think he still has some technical issues where he doesn't really box out, but just the sheer size and athleticism. I mean, he's rebound. He's been off the charts. And then the rim protection, I love how he does this like two-handed contest around the rim.

I'm not sure if you've noticed that. But even when he goes to blood shots, yeah, I love that because it's just using every bit of length you have. And, I mean, if you look into the rim protection numbers, I'm pretty sure he's at the top for defensive field goal percentage within like 6%, within 6 feet of the rim. Obviously, he is blocking shots. it's just a major deterrent and especially after last season it's nice to have a genuine rim protector in the lineup and then on offense he's obviously just done typical jumpy jump big man stuff like this offensive rebounds seeing him catch a few lobs I said I think he him as a role man something he needs to improve on a little bit I know we could say some but to Casey but I also just

think he's there's some stuff when he rolls i don't think he's pacing with his good at the moment but i'm being pretty nitpicky here um and i think we've seen him he hit that turn around jump shot the other night out of the post um yeah i'm really excited and have loved what i've seen from jalen so far he's fun on defense definitely he has the the biomechanic capability and yeah i actually talked about this a fair amount on last episode uh coincidentally he has that this biomechanical capability to jump high with both of his arms fully extended upward, which not everybody can do. I mean, for your average person, you put your arms all the way above your head. You're going to have trouble actually getting much lift, but he's able to do it.

So he's able to contest shots very well. So, yeah, in terms of his rim protection, yeah, that's been helpful. He's about average, maybe a little bit below average in terms of percentage like strictly at the rim, but he's definitely been very good within six feet, like you said. Yeah, for sure. I was meant to say as well, one thing I'll be keeping an eye, it's just he's finishing around the basket. I'm not sure, yeah, I've seen him miss a few easy shots or just sort of rush. And maybe that's because he's been struggling majorly from the free throw line.

But on the whole, considering many thought, he'll be playing spot minutes, I think, with what he's given the piston so far at his age of 18 years old. Yeah, I think he's been really impressive. Yeah, I definitely agree. It's exciting to see. Yeah, my concerns about I'm going in, we're largely around this touch around the basket, which I think has been kind of rough. Also, the free throw shooting hasn't been there. I've said it before. I'll say it again, that I think that's his only realistic point of failure in the NBA is if he either, as if he cannot be like the highly efficient score, they will need him to be. Any traditional center has to be around the basket. Yeah, for sure. And I'm really excited to see eventually. I'm not sure

if it'll happen this season, but just seem utilized a bit more as a passer. I'm not sure how that really sort of features in the offense, maybe on the short role. But yeah, I think there's some passing by making potential within him that could be really exciting. Yeah, definitely. And now a quick word from our sponsor. NBA fans, the NBA action is just getting started and so are the incredible offers of Drafking Sportsbook and official sports betting partner of the NBA.

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Down with the Drafking Sportsbook app now, use promo code TbPN, make any $5 bet this week and get $200 in free bets if your team wins. Only a drafting sports book with promo code TBPN. Minimum age and eligibility restriction supplies, see show notes for details. All right, so with that, let's move on to Killian Hayes, who has definitely seen quite a bit improvements in the last few games. So what have you seen from Killian that you're like? Yeah, for sure. Well, I think for Killian, it always just starts with the mindset and the aggressiveness. And I guess that feeds into his confidence. And I think across his past five

games after a historically bad opening to the season where I'd like to think I'm one of the more optimistic fans slash analysts of the team. And even I was thinking we were on the verge of for Killian Hayes being out of the rotation and who knows where that was going to end up. But to see him bounce back across his past five, an average essentially 11 points, four rebounds, four assists on what I would call pretty good efficiency for Killian of 43% shooting from the field and 32% from three. I think it's been really pleasing to see that. And I think we've seen him get back into the paint doing some of the stuff he did in preseason,

driving by his man and actually looking to finish some floaters or these little hook shots he's been putting up in the painted area and then he's also been getting to a mid-range pull-up which at times looks a bit rough but it's been going in so you can't fault him for that and I think once he's scoring that unlocks his passing and then his defence is always on ball always sort of stands out particularly on this team

that has mostly poor perimeter defenders, in my opinion. So, yeah, to see him thriving, especially after such a poor start, and even since been putting in the starting lineup, continuing to sort of play pretty solid ball. Yeah, I was pretty shocked, to be honest, because it was looking scary there for Killian for a bit. Yeah, scary is one way of putting it, definitely. He was really just doing bad.

I mean, like you said, historically bad on offense. It was incredibly ugly. It's definitely even nice to see more confidence. You can't succeed in the NBA without confidence. I remember complaining to a friend of mine long ago. This was right after Josh Smith had been waived. He was playing for the Rockets at the time. And I'm like, I just hate how that guy is so sure of himself because he's terrible,

just absolutely terrible on offense. And he was like, well, Mike, if you want to be in the NBA, you have to have like incredible self-confidence. Like you have to feel like, you know, I'm the man if you want to succeed. And of course, that doesn't mean being a ball hog and playing hero ball and whatnot. But yeah, obviously confidence is key. you want to compete in the best league I think the most competitive sports league

in any sport in the world and it's been good to see killing him with more of that the mid-range pull-ups are good that's a tough shot to make efficient I don't know if he'll keep doing that we'll see he's shot better from three and it's been more decisive but man what I really want him to do is just drive

into the teeth of the defense and he's still not doing it and I think that's a necessary step that he's still very hesitant to take yeah for sure I saw you tweeting about that about him finishing and looking for contact and yeah maybe that's the next step for Killian. He's historically a pretty good free throw shooter, but he clearly just never gets to the line. And I think some of that's just to do with like, similar to how Cade sort of

struggles, because they're not that level of athlete that can get up and exorb contact. I mean, in my opinion, those more groundbound guards sort of struggle to get to the line. I know those players like James Harden who have figured out a way to manipulate the reps into drawing contact and there's a little tricks, but yeah, Killian does tend to, and I'm not sure if this is a lefty thing, but he does tend to, like, always fade away rather than absorb the contact on some of those finishes, and that's something Dwayne Casey's spoken about in the past, not just this season. So, yeah, that would be the next evolution for Killian. I don't think it's a lefty thing.

James Harden is a lefty, De Aaron Fox, Zion. I'm going to go with no. Yeah, no, look, I'll take the L on that one then. Yeah, I mean, I actually missed that. I didn't know that Dwayne Casey had spoken about that. I think it's just that Kalyan has never had to be a physical player up until he, under the NBA. I mean, you watch his tape in Europe, and he was fast and agile enough compared to the players he was facing, that he just didn't need to do it.

It was very much a finesse player. I don't know how much his injury had to do with his aversive. to contact in the MDA, but I mean, we'd seen so little of him up to that point. I mean, I think it was only eight games and he had a very minor role. But I think it's just something you can't do without. I mean, I think, like we saw him do it once against the Celtics. You know, he did a bit of a looping drive from right to left. And I think he even finished with his, no, he finished with his left hand still,

but he did it from very close to the rim and he'd attack the defense. And I feel like just you got to do that if you want to really break down opposing defenses. And you really want to open up your teammates and you really want to score it. efficiency with that high efficiency offense around the basket and the free throws you draw. But he's not, he's still not willing to do it, which is a little concerning. I feel like that's something that can immediately improve his game. I've always felt that way. Yeah, for sure.

I mean, hopefully, maybe it's something we might see now that he seems to have found himself a little bit these past week and a half. Maybe we'll see him, because I feel like for Killian, once that confidence is restored, we'll start trying more things. because we saw in those first eight or so games. Like, you honestly didn't even know he was on the court offensively half of the time. Oh, we knew.

It was just incredibly ugly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we know as Piston's fans, but I feel like fans from other teams watching probably didn't even recognize him on the court. So, I mean, maybe with this confidence, newfound confidence, we'll start seeing attacking the room with more intent. But, yeah, on the whole, I think this past five games

It's been really, I mean, I'm just sort of happy for Killian because, I mean, the past couple of years of Pistons with their two top lottery picks have taken players that play his position. So clearly that can't be good for the mental psyche. I mean, you know, he'd be feeling a lot of pressure. So just to see him get some rewards finally, I'm pretty happy for him in that sense. Yeah. I mean, it's been good to see. And I've always felt that, I mean, I was a big proponent of the Bistons drafting Killian Hayes over Tyrese Halliburton and, you know, even over, over, a middle ball at that point, obviously, you know, you'd have to improve a spectacular amounts

to be, you know, for those words to actually hold any water. But, you know, I've always thought, even as he struggled, that there was a good NBA player in there, you know, he just has to manifest it. Another thing he could definitely do some work on is willingness, not just ability, but willingness use his right hand. I don't know if you noticed this last night, but he went in, he got in good position, leaping near the basket to go for a right-handed layup, he swapped to his left hand, and he got blocked. Yeah, no, I'm with you. He's done that.

If he's driving right on the right side of the basket, he'll always finish with his left. And it just makes it, because he's got to contort his body to sort of face his shoulders to the rim. It just, like you said, that's why he'd be getting blocked because it just allows the NBA athlete that split second to come across. And, yeah, deny the shot or at least put on a really good contest. Yeah. So, yeah, he's got distance to go. I hope he can continue to build on what he has been doing. I do feel like he's always, I don't feel like, I feel like he's always going to thrive best in a role in which you can handle the ball a lot.

I mean, how do you feel about that? Do you think that's, you know, just what do you think your projection of Killian is if he's ever going to be a guy who can really play with, to play effectively with another player who's going to be on the ball a lot? I think, I feel a bit silly using this, but, I mean, I think he could be that Lonso type. Like, I, I mean, I think, though, his best assets do come on board. on offence because of the playmaking. I think there is a solid pick and roll ball handler in there, and we've seen flashes of it.

But I think he can do a bit of both. I mean, obviously the three-point shooting is the main thing that were holding back from being an off-ball player. But yeah, his strengths as a player definitely come on ball and sharing the ball handling duties at least. But I actually had a question for you on Killian. Do you see him with the pistons? Do you see him signing his next contract with the Detroit?

or the likelihood of that. So under such circumstances as he evolves into an effective backup point card? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So backup point guards are in this interesting niche, or players who re-sign with their team are in this interesting niche, where they're good enough to be backups, but they're not so good that it doesn't make sense for a team to just trade them

for somebody else at a better, you know, more of a position of need. Of course, it depends upon expense, you know, cap hit, definitely. But killing would need to fall really right in the, that interval, like good enough to be a backup point guard on a good team, but not so good that it's like, you know, we're not going to, you know, this guy is good enough that maybe another team would give us something that would be commensurate with what he could provide to that team, but he can't provide to ours because we have our handlers already. So it almost, it almost depend on him being good, good enough, but not too good. And yeah, I mean, it's just, it's really just pending his development.

I mean, I'd love to see it happen because that would be a very successful outcome. But you'd almost like to it, you know, even more that he's just, he's gotten good enough that it makes sense for the team to trade him. Exactly. That's why it's so tricky. That's why I can't see him on this team, on his next contract, not because Detroit don't want him or because if he become, if his outcome, he does become that good backup point guard. You don't want to have too much money invested in all your money in your back court, like your finances. Like, you can grab veteran point guards off the scrap heap, pretty easy for cheap. Like, I mean, people want to have to, a rag on Corey Joseph, but, and he's not what he was a couple of seasons ago, but, you know,

you can find these backup point guards everywhere. So I just see, because if killing becomes good, then another team will want him and offer him a larger contract. So I think the best outcome is probably Detroit able to get an asset back for him. Yeah, I mean, I would say the fact that presumably Kate and Ivy will continue to be on the team would also figure into the desire to not overspend in a backup point guard. because you mentioned that we'll probably see a fair amount of staggering, and that really reduces the potential impact of your backup point guard is always going to be on the floor with one of them or in the vast majority of situations.

So let's move on to a final topic here. So the lineup change last night, which took Sadiq Bay out and put Marvin Bagley into the starting lineup. What would your thoughts on that? I liked it from the point of view because that starting lineup needed a change. The defense was apparent. like they were giving up felt like routinely 120 points

and we knew it coming into the season that the perimeter defence with Bogie and Bay was just going to be essentially non-existent and I mean as good as Bogie is offensively yeah he gives up a lot in the defence event I mean I've even seen between Bay Bogie and Ivy to some of the communication stuff on defence was just really killing the team

and look I'm not saying Marvin Bagley will improve that by any stretch. But I think this team needed help on the boards, definitely in that starting lineup. That's been a constant issue. And then in terms of, and I think Sidic Bay, and I've said this to people in the, like, yes, the two-point percentage, that improvement is awesome.

But when you're playing alongside Ivy and K, you need spacing. You can't. So if he's not going to shoot 36% on decent volume, he's going to be shooting around 30% with Bogdanovich in the lineup. It's just, there's too much overlap with him trying to score in the paint with Caden Ivy.

So I was happy to see the change. And I didn't mind, I think I touched on it earlier. I actually thought Stuart and Bagley looked pretty good in those limited minutes together in terms of the way they spaced the floor and weren't really getting in each other's way. Yeah, I think we spoke about this lineup in the episode we did about Isaiah Stewart before the season,

a lineup in which Stewart would be playing powerful, forward on offense and Bagley's center and they would swap on defense because of course Marvin Bagley cannot defend the interior. I mean, I think we agree on that. This is probably never going to happen. So I agree. I mean, it was nice that you had Isaiah at shooting well and he's shot fairly well in recent games. And I know both you and I believe in his shooting in the long term. And Bagley was operating more in the interior. So I liked it. Of course, I mean, Bay has struggled on defense. Bagley is not a good defender. You give up some spacing. But just the fact that the rebounding was just tremendously better.

Like, immensely better. Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's been one of the things with Stuart. This season, his rebounds been amazing. And I've loved his offensive rebang in particular. He started, I don't think he gets credit for it. I call it the Tyson Chandler tap back rebound. He's become really good at that this season.

Obviously, Bagley is always going to give you points and rebounds. It's just what he does. I think he only had five last night, but historically he's a good rebounder. and defensive rebounding is part of defense. I mean, it's really important that you don't give up second chance points. So look, the thing with this entire Rossi is no matter what lineup you put out there, it's going to be flawed. And so I was just happy to see a change made because that primitive defense had been

a real sore point in the early part of the season. And I mean, that's why it sucks that Stu went down because I was really looking forward to just getting a five to ten. and game sample size of those guys playing alongside each other, but I guess we'll just have to continue waiting for that. Yeah, and hopefully we'll find out that Stuart isn't going to miss much time. I know I've really hadn't had such great things to say about Stuart so far in terms of his overall performance. I know you and I probably disagree about that.

I disagree about that. But I do think that playing with the likes of Bagley helps to minimize some of his weaknesses on offense. Now, of course, if Bagley can shoot, you know, fantastic. I think that Bagley is going to need to need to need to be. able to shoot the three-pointer in order to really have a future with the pistons. And I don't think that Stewart's going to be the long-term power forward. But if at least one of them can shoot, then the pistons can make it work. Yeah, for sure.

And I mean, I think there's a starter within Stu, but also if he's not going to be the starter, if he's the first big off the bench when his team starts winning, I think he's going to be a vital case to this team, no matter what, going forward. Yeah. You know, and when I said that definitely, I mean, I know you and I agree about that. that I hope Stewart's on the team for a long time. But yeah, when I said, I think they can make it work. I'm more meant that it can just be a functional thing this season.

I don't think it's going to be a long-term thing. If Bagley explodes into the offensive player, everybody hopes he could be, then, you know, fantastic, then maybe you can make it work that way. And if Stewart can shoot well, I still have, well, I was going to say I have my doubts about Stewart's defense powerful or be defending its center there. So let's talk about finally, Sadiek Bay playing from the bench. What do you think about that?

I think for the moment, it's a good chance for him to, well, it certainly leans into him getting those on-ball creation chops because I think that's been one of the major improvements for the league this season has been him getting to the free throw line as well as sort of just finishing it around the rim. He's never going to be someone finishing above the rim, but I've liked, he's sort of changed up. He's been a bit more aggressive when he's caught the ball and just being quick with his decisions. He's had this little up and under. He's developed. in around the painted area where he's either getting his defender up and drawing the foul or getting his defender up and moving around him to finish the way up.

So I think with him playing in the bench line up, which with Alec Berks, livers, some spacing around him, as well as Doreen at the centre position, I think it's a good chance for him to sort of regain his form, potentially get that three-point stroke back. because as I mentioned earlier, without the three-point shooting, I don't see Sadiq as a long-term starter. So I think if he's just going to be an efficient scorer from three-point line in, then I think him as a sixth, seventh man's a pretty good role for him and the team going forward. I mean, if you were to make the choice right now, would you send him or bogey to the bench?

I think you had to send bay to the bench. Bogie's shooting's being you couldn't bench that. Yeah, I mean, that's fair. I mean, you might think that Boyon does a lot more work. Like, I think a lot more than you and I had expected as a creator from mid-range. But, yeah, I agree that there are merits to either side. One last thing to discuss, this is surprise you that the Pistons are currently weeding the league and free throws taken per game.

If you told me before the season, yes, but after watching the games, no, because they get to the line a ton. They just can't finish them. Yeah, yeah, that's West than ideal. But, yeah, you've got, I mean, Burks has only been back for a couple games. he's not going to keep up six and a half attempts per game, but you've got Sadiq Bay and Boy on at about five per game. Jaden Ivy coming just behind at four and a half.

He's great at drawing foulos. Isaiah has been getting, I think, more just fed really well under the basket, and he's drawing follows. He also takes the ball up super strong. It's interesting. And yeah, the pistons are only like in the high 70s, but that is not something I saw coming. No, and as I said, before the season,

I wouldn't have guessed that. But when you have players like stew and barricading to the line, I think they've both led the team at some point in free throw attempts throughout the years. So, I mean, those two getting to the line has definitely been unexpected for me. But yeah. Yeah. Welcome to addition. Absolutely.

Now they just got to shoot better than 32.7% from three. Yeah. Jack, it's been a pleasure having you on the show again. No, of course, Mike. You know, I absolutely love jumping on talking hoops with you, man. So thank you so much. Absolutely, man. Likewise.

So, again, everybody, this is Jack Kelly from Detroit Bad Bowl. voice. And this is going to be it for today's episode. As always, thank you for listening. Catch you next time.