Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 13: Doumbouya, Wood, and more on the rebuild

Episode Date: March 7, 2020

This episode discusses Christian Wood's present and future, the organization's opportunity to finally catch up to the evolution of the NBA, and the status of Sekou Doumbouya. Dante (also known as ChefCurrySauce on /r/DetroitPistons) joins us as our first-ever guest co-host.    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Driving to the Basket. My name is Mike. I'm here with Tommy and our guest for tonight, Dante, also known as Chef Curry South on the Detroit Pistons subreddit. Also, as I understand it, a meme legend. Detroit Lions subreddit. Thanks for joining. Oh, boy. That's quite the introduction. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, you're famous, apparently, amongst the Reddit Lions community. Yeah, I tell everybody that in real life and everybody thinks I'm sick, actually. Fantastic. Well, to be honest, I've got to say anybody who manages to find humor and the Detroit Lions is really doing all other Lions fans of favor. I mean, goodness knows, yeah, goodness knows they need it.

So, yeah, so we're just going to start out tonight by noting once again that the Pistons are really, really bad and it's absolutely great. they're going into a very, very difficult stretch of schedule that began with the game against the Thunder after a game against, I believe, the game before that was against the Kings. A very bad team, whom the Pistons managed to score the first, I think, 18 to 1 early out of the game and still managed to lose. You know, wonderful. You know, it sucks for the players, but at this point, honestly, you want to lose as many games as you can. I think coming up in a very, very difficult strength and schedule. So they've got a very, very solid chance of ending up in the bottom four.

And bottom four, I mean, the bottom three have the same odds. Number four still has very good odds, number one pick. So tonight we're just going to start off talking a little bit about Christian Wood. Had another very good game last night, or we're recording this right now on Thursday night. So he had a very good game last night against the Thunder. scored 29 points, I believe 10 rebounds, did very well on offense. And there's been a lot of questions amongst the fandom, at least the fandom that we see about what's his future with the team,

what's he going to get offered, who might give him an offer. So let's get started with that. I know Tommy you've been researching this a lot. So what are your thoughts? Yeah, so I've found some projections made by a Celtics writer named Keith Smith. he does these every, I think every year. And his projections factor in the players that he thinks are going to be re-signed by their team. And he kind of calculates how much cap space he thinks each team will have.

So for Christian Wood's case, I think to narrow down the number of teams who can make a decent offer to Christian Wood, I think you have to start above the mid-level of exception, which, for, 2020 is, I believe, 9.25 million. So there are actually only six teams, including the Pistons, that have cap space. So those teams are Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, New York, and Phoenix, and then, of course, the Pistons. So I went through and I kind of looked at each team and what players they have at the center and the power forward position, which is kind of where Christian is playing and where a lot of people thinks he should play. And I'm kind of trying to gauge the likelihood of each team making a significant offer for him. The interesting thing about all these teams is

they all have upwards of at least, I believe, 25 million in Cap Space. Actually, Phoenix says 24, but they also have to replace quite a few players. So starting with Atlanta, they have to, they have Clint Capella, John Collins, and Dwayne Dedman, and they have 50 million in cap space, but they only have nine players. I don't think there's a very good chance of them making an offer to Christian just because Clint Capella, they gave up a first rounder for him. John Collins is young, and he plays Power 40, he does a lot of what Christian already does,

and then there's Dwayne Dedman who's making, I think, 13 million for the upcoming year. So there's really no need for Atlanta to make an offer to Christian. I think what they're going to end up doing is if they don't spend a significant amount of their money this year, they're going to have plenty of cap space in 2021 where there's going to be a lot of free agents. So I would put the chances of them making an offer at like on a scale of 1 to 10 at like a 2. The next team is Charlotte. They have 10 players under contract and they have Cody Zeller and PJ Washington.

Zeller Center. P.J. is there, I believe, I'm pretty sure he's a rookie power forward. Yeah, that's right. They have 25 million. They have Bismack, Beyondbo, and Hernon Gomez. They're pending free agents. Keith Smith, he doesn't have them coming back. So with only two players who are kind of front court in Christian Woods area, I could see them making an offer. And I mean, They're one of two teams that I think has a decent chance of pulling Christian Wood away. The Hornets have a habit of overpaying guys. I mean, there's Nick Batum who they don't even play anymore because he's a bit older and they are focusing on their rebuild.

So it's kind of a toss-up to me if they think Christian Wood is young enough and good enough. He actually played with the Hornets for, I think, two years. I don't know how much playing time he got there, but he struggled there. So it'll be interesting to see if they're interested in a reunion. I'd put the chances at maybe a six out of ten. It might happen. It's a matter of if the Hornets are willing to spend that kind of money on Christian Wood. Next up is Miami.

They have Bam, Atabio, Kelly Olinick, and then the power forward, Duncan Robinson, who's shooting ungodly well from three. Does we play small forward mostly? Yeah, he's listed as a power forward. I'm sure he's just like, he's pretty much exclusively a sniper. I don't know. Yeah.

You're right. You mean, mostly shooting guards and smulf over this year. Really? I mean, that kind of changes things. We talked about this. If you want wood to be a center, then there's really no reason for the heat to pay them. they have only nine players on their roster right now. They've got a lot of holes to fill.

They have BAM, who's obviously the first time all-star this year, and then they have Kelly O'Linnick who can do a lot of what Christian Wood can do. He can space the floor, and he's been there. He knows, they know what they have in Kelly O'Linnick. So chances for them making an offer on Christian Wood, I'd put it at like a three out of ten. I really don't see that happening. I don't see it with Miami at all.

No, Miami, they're going to have to pay back. after next year Miami is a team that perennially avoids just a just perennially wants to avoid the luxury tax yeah right and they have to they also druggage is expiring you know the crowders expires I mean they just have a lot of holes to fill exactly then next is next is New York and I mean I'm sure I've heard the jokes that New York

signed like four power forwards in the off season or like acquired four power forwards they got rid of Marcus More he's in L.A. now, I think. And then next year, they have Bobby Portis, Mitchell Robinson, Tage Gibson, and Julius Randall. Now, they have Portis and Gibson are on team options. Right. So, Key Smith has Portis being gone. I don't think he has Gibson being gone. I'm pretty sure Gibson is still under contract. I'm not sure, honestly.

Yes, yeah. But he has them at. It's hard to know what the Knicks will do. Exactly. That's what thing? Yeah, they have 44 million in Capspace, though. So I really don't see them making a big offer to Christian because it's New York. I think they believe in their ability to draw free agents, and they're already so stacked at PowerFor. I really don't see that happening.

And the last one is Phoenix. And this one is the most interesting to me. They have Frank Kaminsky and Czech Diallo on team options, and Keith Smith. doesn't have them coming back. So all they're left with is DeAndre Aiton at center, and then they have, I think, Dario Sarich entering restricted free agency. They have nine players rostered and then $24 million in Calf Space. Honestly, I think this is the one that's like the most likely to happen.

Christian Wood is only 24. Yeah. Christian Wood's only 24. I think he would fit their timeline well. DeAndre Aiton, he can move well. I don't think it's a huge drop-off in play style from DeAndre Aidan. Obviously, Aiton is a lot bigger and he's a lot more skilled around the rim. But I think the fit is there.

And if there's a team that's going to make a decent offer, I think it might be Phoenix. Now, they have holes to fill, of course, and they only have 24 million and nine players under contract for next season. So I think the main threats would be Phoenix, and I believe I had Charlotte. So, I mean, with all those things in mind, if you want to keep the bidding between just those six teams, I think you have to exceed the MLE and exceed it in a way that Christian Wood can't say no. I think this is his first real big contract, a real big opportunity. So personally, I would offer him 39 over 3.

13 million a year. I think that's fair. We don't need to use all of our cap space. We have a lot of players and holes to fill. But Christian Wood has been a bright spot in what has otherwise been a pretty terrible time for the Pistons in the short term. And he knows it. 13 million a year, I think is fair. He knows it as well.

Like, I don't think you can undersell the, this is kind of where he got his break. You know what I mean? mentioned earlier that he played for Charlotte. Like, I didn't even know that. This guy's been bouncing around the league so much. And I think when you look at that list of teams and what they already have and the cap space, I just don't see, you know, any of them being like that we need to go get Christian Wood.

Like, that's who we need to spend our cap space on. So I think the pistons are in an okay spot to be the ones to bring them back. Like, I'm not too concerned. Yeah. I mean, he's gotten interesting. around the league. I know there was a rumor that the Celtics tried to trade for Christian Wood. And to me, like, that's like the main thing to watch for it. Because I think Boston has probably, if not the best, then definitely top three front offices.

So if they're interested in one of your guys, it might just be that Danny ain't just trying to fleece you. But it's a good sign when the Celtics want one of your people. Yeah. I think there are reports that a lot of teams actually made pitches for Wood. and that makes sense. I mean, he's a player with a very reasonable cap number. I mean, any team could have added him pretty much just that the law, really the only loss would have been whatever compensatory player you send over and probably a draft pick. So I don't think it's as much of, well, first off, I don't think he'll really get a significant payday.

This is a guy with less than a season as a full-time rotation player. and there's also that what really kept him out of the league. You know, he wasn't drafted. It took him a long time to catch on despite doing very well. I think he had a very exceptional performance in 2018 Summer League. And even then, he really didn't get a shot with the team until near the end of the season. That was the Pelicans. So I think that will make teams a little bit wary just because, you know, just you never know.

You never know if he'll continue to work this high. hard after he's paid. But I think the primary reason for the business to keep him is that he's entertaining to watch. And this team is, unless they get just a draft pick and this guy turns out to be super exciting next season, I mean, there's just, there's not much that's exciting about this team. Maybe a second we'll take another step.

Maybe Bruce Brown will take another step. I have my doubts because the guy just doesn't believe seem to have the touch on offense. Yeah. But, you know, you got to love Bruce, but he still can't score above the basket. it's mostly just floaters and whatnot. He's still bad at scoring in the way to the basket. He still won't shoot threes. He does it very rarely.

And it's like it's nicely just a playmaker, but if you're a playmaker who can't shoot, then you're much less useful as a playmaker. Or it's a passer to others. So I would say as far as potential teams, like the teams you've listed, who might make a run for wood, I agree to Hawks are very unlikely to make that pitch.

they're probably still a couple seasons away. Also, just the question of where does Collins best fit? There were some who raised eyebrows about the Capella trade because Collins operates a fair amount down to the paint and Capella can only play in the paint. The Knicks, I don't think, are really likely to try to make a splash with anybody. I mean, there's very dubious rumors that they might trade for Chris Ball

or try to trade for Chris Ball. But honestly, it's just tough to, I'm not even going to bother trying to, you know, revise what I said. I don't think I'm not even going to bother trying to predict what the Knicks will do because you just never know. No, there's no point. Yeah, there's no point. Yeah, I agree. The Hornets, I think, will just focus on the drafted players for now. You mentioned they aren't playing Batum at all.

I mean, partially just he sucks, but partially there's just no reason to play him. And I think it's the right decision. And by all accounts, he's been taking it in stride. and the sons here's the thing you trade it down in order to get Sarich and yeah

so you've got Aiden on the team obviously just under the future you've got Baines they have full bird on him and so full bird rights and he's been great for them

I think they'll keep him and a power forward Cam Johnson who was a bizarre pick in the lottery you know people had him in the high 20s because the guy is, he's just, I think, 23 when he entered the draft. He's got very limited athletic upside, and he's got major injury red flags. But they took him, and they seem to like him.

So that's your four guys in the front court. I don't think they're really likely to go after Wood. Serich, a clear way, they liked him enough to trade down. So, and who else did we say? I don't remember. I think that pretty much covers everybody. Yeah, I just don't see it. I just don't see a team.

Oh, Miami, right. Even Miami. I don't see that either. And honestly, I think a part of me, too, I really don't want to see the Pistons without Christian Wood. Because, like, at the risk of offending you, Mike, I know you're the president of the Andre Drummond fan club. But like, what a divergence from that style of, okay, like, I couldn't tell you one time in the past three to four seasons where, you know, I would watch Drummond receive an entry pass. and I was like, yes, like, that is what I want to see. You know what I mean? Whereas Christian, it's just, he's so exciting every time he touches the ball, right? And he's like an analytics guy's dream too, because he's either going to, you know, hit a three in your face,

or he's going to drive to the basket and just shatter the rim, like, just obliterate it. So he doesn't settle for, like, the stupid mid-range shots or the push shots or really even, like, post-up all that much. He's just, he's the best part about the team right now. and I think the front office knows it. I'm sure that Tom Gores knows it. Rod Beard had that tweet about how, you know, Christian went from the last guy on the roster to the last guy being introduced in the pregame.

So I don't think that the team can afford to let him go. And when you look at the crop of other teams that have cap space, I just don't see a fit, you know, quite like he has in Detroit already. But that's just my take. Who knows what could happen. Yeah, of course, this is solved. It's just trying to predict, but a billion-dollar organizations will do.

do. But yeah, I don't see him. I think it's a very, very high likelihood that it'll be with the piss this next season. I don't think it's likely that another team will throw very significant dollars at him. I think we're looking at probably a three-year contract between $10 and $12 million a year. I also don't see him as a starting center in the league. He's a little bit of a tweener. And tweener, it's not as big of a deal to be a tweener this stage on the NBA as long as you are able to switch downward on defense in particular, and as long as you can stretch the floor. And honestly, there aren't very many guys who flex between power forward and center anymore.

There used to be a lot, you know, six years ago back when a lot of your power forwards couldn't shoot. And so you just moved them up to center. And all those guys, of course, who couldn't shoot a power forward or not, either centers or out of the league. but I see him in the long term as kind of a Montreal hero sort of player, not necessarily in terms of skill sets, but you play him off the bench, big minutes, and you put him next to a good point guard who can work with him, and you let them make magic off the bench.

I don't think he's ideal to play power forward. I'd really much rather see him play center. You're giving up size on defense, but you see teams taking that to the extreme. Houston is going bite-sized and doing just fine. I mean, this is just another indictment against, you know, the likes of Drummond. I mean, he had flaws well beyond just his inability to score. And certainly, I don't think he'll ever have to touch to stretch the floor.

But you give up rebounding and you're fine. As long as you do well on offense, you play a fast-paced offense that shoots really efficiently. And you're just fine. You rebound defensively by committee and you do okay. So I think his ideal position is center, but I don't think he's a center who's going to be good enough on a successful team. that said the Pistons are not going to be, are very unlikely to be successful anytime soon. So I think you just keep him for excitement value alone.

And who knows, maybe you get lucky in the next couple of years and then you still have him under contract. But I think the Pistons are the team that's most likely to offer him a multi-year deal where he wants to be. And that's where you're going to get the biggest role. Because on any other teams we listed aside from the Knicks, he's playing off the bench. And even with Griffin back next season,

I think if Dwayne Casey finally says, okay, fine, and I'll play him at center. I think that's, that's, you're likely to see him play starting minutes. And he'd be a good fit with, with Griffin as a guy who can space the floor,

though that's another whole mess that you don't want Griffin sucking usage away from younger players next season. And there's no other way he can play. So that's, that's just another whole mess. So I think 90% chance he's with the Pistons next season. And, you know,

though it seemed like from his post-game conference, last night that he was a little bit depressed that he had this career night and the Pistons still lost. I think ultimately playing on a team where he gets the most minutes and the most opportunity and a decent contract is going to trump. Like, I don't see him going to an MLE to a team because, you know, who knows? But I think it's unlikely. No, he's looking for a payday. Like when you've bounced between like six or seven teams and you're only 24 years old,

you're not like chasing a ring. You know what I mean? And I think the Pistons are easily the likeliest team to, like you said, to offer him a multi-year deal to, and not only that, but to give him the touches that I'm sure that he wants at this stage in his career. So I would be, I'd be floored if he wasn't a Piston next year. So that's where we stand on Christian Wood. Also, you know, it's worth noting.

It's always worth looking at just the continued evolution of the NBA matter in general. and Christian, I know we talked about this, I believe, a little bit in the last episode. Christian Wood is just the kind of center of the future. To an extent, he'd be a better center of the future if you could defend the rim more ably. He's decent at it, but not always reliable. I think your real centers of the future are guys like Jaron Jackson Jr., for example, dudes who can really ably protect the room and also space the floor. But, you know, with the pistons, you know,

We were chatting before the show, and I think we'd unanimously agreed on this, that none of us miss watching Andre Drummond. Like, not at all. The game for the Pistons, just things flow better. You have guys playing for the team. I don't think there's a single guy in the roster right now who is just hogging the ball because he wants to be a star offensive player. They're playing a modern style of NBA basketball when they can.

I mean, with wood on the floor. I don't really feel great about Henson taking the center minutes instead of wood. but at least he's a team guy. I don't miss Drummond's slowing the offense down into molasses because he insists on being part of it. If he's not trying to force offense, he wants to be the playmaker that he's not good enough with either one. The Pistons with Drummond on the floor this season were like,

I believe 27th in pace. They shot up to seventh without him on the floor. So it was just really not a pleasant to watch, especially because he was, when it came down to it, just such a, you know, he had maturity issues and he was pretty selfish. Like I said, we asked him. Yeah, Van Gundy was like, oh, Andre never complained about touches. And it's like, you gave him a billion touches. That's why. So, I know. Yeah. Yeah.

I do miss the rapping. I'll miss the rapping for sure. But that's about, that's where I draw the line, I would say. Yeah. Like, if we look, I don't, I don't miss Reggie Jackson either. I was a harsh critic of Jackson for his first two seasons with Detroit before. I kind of feel like he grew up after his really terrible, terrible season in 2016, 2017. But the Drummond's Griffin, excuse me, the Drummond Jackson duo was just so boring. I mean, if Drummond wasn't just sucking the life out of everything,

Jackson was pounding the ball for 20 seconds before going in a pick and roll and taking a bad shot. And you just can't play with that kind of pace in today's end. B.A. And those two guys are not good enough to be your center. They're just to be the centerpiece of the successful team. So I'm excited for what the future is going to bring. It wasn't fun at all. So at least it's a new era now. I don't know what's going to happen, but it's not that.

It's not chasing an eighth grade, hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. Chance to build a modern team too. Yep. Yeah. Exactly. There's a real opportunity here to do something new.

And with this flexibility that we have now, we can. sign more players like Christian Wood who work better with the modern offense. And like, like you were just saying, players who fit the NBA meta, you know, I know me personally, I want us to do, I know there are like some purists who, who like the, the idea of the traditional center and the pick and roll and the defense first guys. I don't think that's, that's how you should approach team building anymore. Offense, it's clearly what the league wants. So, you take the offense first guys, guys who are making their teammates better by providing spacing, and then on the other end, they can defend. And then you have like maybe one,

actually, it's good to have multiple guys who can handle the ball, but you don't want too many guys who are like fit dependent or who really need the ball, which is kind of what the Pistons went into the season with. You know, they had Derek Rose, Blake Griffin, Reggie Jackson, who last season, he did learn how to play off the ball. And then I think, Mike, you even mentioned what was like the count was like six or seven guys who were at their best when they had the ball on their hands. So now you can take this opportunity and build a team with more cohesion and they have a better fit together. Yeah, it's guys who can play up and down. I mean, there will always be a space for your elite point guards who obviously are never going to be particularly good at switching on to

onto big guys. But, yeah, you want the guys who can play in a multitude of ways. And like the Pistons, I mean, I'll still maintain that Stan Van Gundy, that the trade for Griffin was a Hail Mary to save his job. He was also a guy who just disdained analytics and disdained what was going on in the NBA, just completely disdained trends. You know, in a league of an increasingly position with basketball, you get two guys, you put half the salary cap in there,

and there are guys who operate in the interior can only put. one position. So, because Griffin is a center in today's week, but he can't play center. I mean, that is, that is certainly absolutely his ideal position. So, yeah, you have a, you have a front office that seems to have its headscrit on straight to a degree. I remain wary of, of, uh, of, of, uh, of Stefansky just because of his, is very, very, very, very devious pedigree. But to this point, uh, he's done a fairly good job, not a perfect job, but a fairly good job and also seems to be willing to stand up to Tom Gores, which that is complete speculation. But it seems to be the case.

It's entirely possible that Gores just said after Van Gondi, it's just like, okay, maybe I have to let the, my amateurish meddling should be toned down and I should let the professionals do the work. But, you know, at the very least you can say that they're headed in the right direction. And if you can get a guy like Anthony Edwards, you know, fantastic. I'm even more excited about the future. Like this draft, this draft will be big for the Pistons. I think they could easily lose all of it like three of their remaining games.

And it's terrible to watch. And honestly, like, I've been missing a game here and there. And for years, I would not ever miss a game unless I were out of town or just absolutely unable to watch. And, you know, so it's not easy. But I liken this, like the Pistons to an athlete. who, you know, who keeps, who has a nagging injury and it's lowering his athletic ceiling. So he can't win. He's, you know, his level of success is very mediocre.

But he doesn't want to take time off to recoup. He wants to keep trying to compete. And so he's going to keep being really mediocre until you take that time off to recuperate. And you can get to a point where you're healthy and you can compete again. And that time you have to take off sucks. But if you want to win, you got to do it. or you can be the jazz and just, you know, be very lucky that the guy before you picks the wrong guy, and suddenly you have an all-star in a team.

Yeah. Did you come up with that metaphor right now? What? The, you know, the athlete needing to take time off from the nagging injury to come back stronger. Was that, like, off the top? Because that was awesome. No, no, no. Yeah, that was really valid.

Yeah, I've used that one. I've used that one before. But, yeah. Oh, thanks, though. Yeah, I appreciate it. It was good. It was good. Yeah.

I was like, wow. That was impressive. So, yeah, I mean, it's worth just what we're saying, just tying back to what we're saying, of course, about the evolution of the league. I mean, the jazz have Rudy Gobert, who I think is far in a way the best traditional center of the league, who's great at everything a traditional center does. But, yeah, even he is very vulnerable because he is, like, even as a game, changing defender. Like I watched a clip earlier in the season of a single play. He was just rotating around and three guys drove at the basket, saw him and turned back and just said, you know,

to hell with this. I can't score on him. So we're going to find something else to do. Even him, even he is vulnerable to teams going smaller. Like the Lakers were playing against the jazz in a game against jazz early in the season. With Javille McGee on the floor, they were struggling to score. And then they moved Anthony Davis to five. suddenly, Goberra has to come out to the perimeter and guard Davis and your lanes to the

baskets become much more open. And on the other end, he just can't provide enough on offense to, when his defense becomes less useful, then he becomes not necessarily negative, but nowhere near as much of a net positive. So, yeah, just after the dark time of Van Gundy, I think at least we have a team, you know, a GM that, management that care about analytics and care about, you know, just doing what needs to be done to build a modern team. No, for sure.

Like, as the game becomes more perimeter-centric, I think you'll probably find that that traditional center is probably going to die out. Like, you're mentioning earlier, the rockets are playing, I don't know, me. Like, I'm their starting center right now, and they're doing okay. So I don't see the need for, yeah, like the Andre Drummond's of the world. And then when you get to the very top of that archetype, like your Rudy Gober's, even then there are, like, critical flaws that you can just exploit. by putting a smaller lineup out there.

So I wouldn't be surprised if within four or five years, you know, lots of teams or even most teams are going small. Yeah. What was it you said, Tommy, about I think it was Pat Riley quotes. Yeah, I tried to find this quote last week. I forget who it was, but the quote was, in 15 years, the NBA is just going to be a bunch of six, eight guys chucking threes. And it was said in a way that was meant to, like, kind of criticize where the league is going.

It's one of those things where, you know, the purists want, like, the positions back, but you can't fight it. And if you try, you end up being the pistons with two front court players who are, we all know the story. I mean, it's good to get ahead of those trends when you see them coming. That's what the rockets are trying to do. And it's worked fairly well because the tradeoff of having a traditional center, it hasn't been as significant as anyone thought. I mean, everybody thought, okay, everybody's going to score. on the Rockets defense at well,

and it hasn't been that case, that hasn't been the case, because they've had enough offense to compensate for it. Yeah, for sure. You're going to see it evolve, like, the Rockets were the first, they were like the pioneers of it.

Absolutely. Yeah. And you have to, when teams make, you know, when really teams make big changes to the way basketball is played, uh,

you have to, you know, you have to adapt. You can't do what Van Gundy did and just, you know, dig your heels into the sand and scream, I'm not going to do this. It just doesn't work.

You're going to lose. Like the Warriors, even before the Rockets, the Warriors really revolutionized basketball in two ways. Number one was their death lineup that they played in the, particularly in the 2015 playoffs. Like after going down to win against the Cavs, it was like, well, screw this.

We're not going to play Bogart anymore. We're just going to play a super small lineup. And, you know, we're going to give up a little bit. on the defensive end of things, but we're going to be much quicker. You're going to have a lot harder time covering us. And that worked. Of course, you know, you can look back and say, well, if Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving were healthy, with the Warriors of one, who knows. Yeah.

But also the series against the Grizzlies. I don't remember if they had gone to one. I think just the Grizzlies had tied it two to two. Tony Allen, first team all defense that year, as he was fond of saying, you know, he'd make a good defense to play. First team all defense. You know, he was a great, he was a great defender. and he was doing a good job on Steph Curry and Clay Thompson.

So the warrior said, okay, well, you can't shoot. So you know what? We're just going to assign Andrew Bogot to you. We're going to put him at the top of the paint. And if you want to drive, then somebody's just going to come help. And so the grizzlies had the choice. Okay, we can either keep Allen on the floor and our offense is going to tank because we're playing 4V5, or we can take them off the floor.

And then Curry, who is primarily guarding, is free to do his thing. And they lost. They lost a series. I mean, they think it was only two more games. But yeah. And that really changed the NBA. Those defensive specialists, you know, saw who couldn't shoot. I mean, those guys nosedived in utility and in presence, and they learned to shoot or they were gone.

Roberson was, it was really the last one. He, I mean, he's obviously been injured. But if he had been healthy last season, I doubt he would have been playing in the starting lineup. And same thing this year. because it's just it's such a drag in a game that really favors offense Marcus Smart learned to shoot and so and then the Rockets did their thing with just going mega analytics and it worked I mean it helps that you have one of the greatest scores of all time I mean that's that's a big part of it but you have to keep up and and

unfortunately in standing under the Pistons had a GM who just wasn't with the times He didn't even coach shots selection, which is a travesty. Yeah. Yeah, even the Cavs, in LeBron's last year, the year they won the championship, I believe Tristan Thompson was still starting most games. But then the next year, they put him on the bench and they moved Kevin Love to the five so that they could make it easier for LeBron to get to the rim. I mean, they gave up Tristan Thompson's defense for Kevin Love's spacing, and it didn't end up

working out. But it shows that they tried it. despite the fact that they had won the championship the year before, they were still trying to make the improvements, and that's what they saw is the next logical step. Yeah. I mean, Kevin Love just suffered from being a terrible defender. Also, he is a little bit of an outdated player, like not actually outdated.

I mean, he's always been modern and his ability to stretch the floor and score in a variety of ways, but he's not athletic. I mean, by NBA standards, he's not very athletic at all. And there's another thing that the former regime just didn't understand is that athleticism is extremely important in the NBA. right now, it can really determine your ceiling. It's not, I mean, once you pass a certain threshold, it's like, okay, fine, you're athletic enough.

Like, Luke Adanjich is not the most athletic guy, but he's just so good at everything. And he's athletic enough, you know, it's just, it's enough. But you have guys like Luke Canard who are just, and Svea, Svea is actually fairly athletic in terms of his speed and his elevation. It's just in terms of anthometrics. He's just a short wingspan, you know, small, stuff. standing reach. Canara is not athletic and that's going to dog him his entire career. Honestly, I think if you had a GM who understood the value of athleticism,

he never would have drafted Henry Ellenson. Like, my goodness, was he terrible pick. That one still hurts. That one still hurts. He was a legend for the Knicks, though. Didn't he score? He had a good game against us, didn't he? I don't remember a men's game. He had a few good games before being ultimately caught by one of the worst teams in the league. I forgot about it. Completely, honestly. Well, the guys drafted after him, Malik Beasley. It was a solid rotation player.

Karas Leverd has been up and down. He scored 51 points yesterday. So, yeah, they're both like the guys taken after on the Pistons needed help in the wing. Stanley Johnson had been, you know, who knows what was going to happen. But KCB had been disappointing, and you need those guys. And Van Gundy just didn't understand that. So he took a guy who had no NBA upside. Yeah.

And then refused to play him. I've said this multiple times, but there was this game. But the last time he really got significant playtime, Van Gondney made the horrific decision to put he and John Bluer on the floor against Kyle Kuzma and Julius Randall. And it was ugly. And that was the last time Malinson really played. So it was predictably ugly. The guy just had no NBA skills and he couldn't play defense.

So, but then you go to Luke Karnard, and if you had a GM who understood the NBA meta, you would have taken Donovan Mitchell in a second because his upside was just... I was about to say that too. Yeah. And then hopefully you got to think that they got it right with Seku, right? Because, you know, instead of taking your low upside, I don't know, I guess shooter, you went for the cerebral young, like, Uber athletic player.

And I know he's had some struggles recently, but I think that he could be the player that breaks that mold of the Pistons' poor draft choices. I don't think he's a Henry Ellenson. His one game against Boston was better than anything that Henry did in his entire career. Oh, absolutely. Henry's one big game was a meaningless one at the end of the 2016-2017 season, a meaningless win that the Pistons didn't really want or shouldn't have wanted than did because, yeah. because Tom Gore's.

No, it was Stan Van Gundy. I mean, they were eliminated from the playoffs already. You don't really want to win those games, but who knows what he was thinking? I would just prefer. Every time I say the guy's name, it gives me like a little bit of a spike of, I mean, he was just so bad. But yeah, I think it's worth talking a little bit about what has happened with Seku because he was very exciting for his first, I don't know, probably month.

And he's really, really petered out. he's been, to be honest, very bad. He just took a bit of a dive and he stayed there. So I'm curious what you guys think about what may have happened. Well, I have a bit of a tangent I want to go on. So if Tommy wants to go first, I'll just, I'll prime myself because I'm very passionate about this topic. All right. Let's go ahead, Tommy.

Yeah. I'm honestly okay with the fact that he's kind of taken a bit of a dive. I don't know how long the season is in the French league that he's. was playing in. But a lot of these, I mean, he's obviously youngest player in the NBA. Even that Celtics game, it was a good showing, but a lot of it was, he was just in the right place at the right time. But of course, he's shown enough, for me at least, in terms of shooting and just potential that I'm okay with the fact that he's not playing all that well right now. I would honestly send him back to the G-League where he can dominate and get comfortable again,

because I think that's kind of his main issue right now. One, it's a long season. And two, he doesn't seem as comfortable. Like, I know his first game was like against LeBron and then I forget who the other. Kauai and then LaGuard. It was crazy. Kauai. And then Draymond, I think, was his next one.

Yeah. I think this sounds backwards. Yeah, but nobody expects anything from him in those games. He didn't even have time to think about the implication. of that game because he found out that he was starting, like, I think that day. So I'm sure that the pressure's gotten to him a little bit more. Yeah, the Clippers was his first game in the starting lineup, yeah. Oh, my mistake.

But yeah, it's not, I'm not upset about the fact that he's not playing all that well right now because it's his first season. I would send him back to the G League, let him get comfortable. I'm not upset because I don't think I didn't expect anything from him this year just based on a very short summer league showing and even we've seen it in the games that we've played this year he's a little bit out of control with his body you know he's he still hasn't figured out how to play NBA defense and that's fine so I'm okay with it what do you think Dante all right are you boys buckled up Let me weigh in real quick before you launch onto this tangent you're talking about. I got to agree with Tommy. I think I didn't even expect him to see time in the NBA this season. He's extremely raw.

What he provided was a pleasant surprise, but I think either he's just unaccustomed to the grind or his mental game went boom. I think it's actually not a great thing that he's still playing. I'd rather put him down to the G League. Maybe Dwayne Casey thinks he can still benefit from time in the NBA. but he already, it's like he already showed us that what he can do at this point, at this very, very early stage of his, at this point still a young NBA career and young life. I mean, he's still a very young player. So that was exciting. I think he's got room to improve.

And honestly, with what I believe, the Pistons pick 15th, so with a 15th pick, if you get a solid starter, then you've come out way ahead. Because, you know, you know, You're not, outside the lottery, I mean, even inside the lottery and the low lottery, I mean, your chances of getting a long-term good starter are fairly low. So I don't, even if he doesn't have the ceiling that people wants to, are hoping he does, you know, if he's a guy who can come out there and give you 30 minutes a night and he's the 15th best small forward in the league, then fantastic. You know, that's more than good enough.

Yeah. All right. Go ahead. Well, I hyped it up a little too much. I'm not going to start screaming at you guys. But, you know, Tommy, you mentioned that against Boston, he was in the right place at the right time a lot. I don't think that that has really changed all that much.

I mean, it wasn't a fluke. You know, you don't drop 24 points on really good efficiency against a very good, you know, a contender in the Eastern Conference. Without, you know, you have the ability to do that consistently, I think. And the fact that he did that after just having turned 19, it really speaks to his upside. so maybe, you know, I'm a little higher on him than you guys are. But what frustrates me sitting there and watching, you know, when Seku's on the

court, I think a lot of like the hardcore Pistons fans, we tend to like just watch him and what he's doing. And it's, you know, he's making good cuts. He's running the floor in transition at just blazing speed. When he gets the ball, it's pretty clear that he wants to attack the rim. But I don't know if he's been like mandating. to just sit in the corner and settle for spot-up jump shots, but something changed between the Boston game and now, and I'm not ready to admit that it's just him,

like he just doesn't want it as bad or he's just tired. But I have never seen a guy get looked off on offense. Like, you know, Brandon Knight would rather take like a driving off-balance, mid-range floater against three people than pass to Saku. I don't, it seems like he's like consistently the fifth option. And no matter what kind of basket cut he makes or where he's standing, he's not getting those same qualities of looks that he got, you know,

against like Boston or even against the clippers. So I'm not ready to, I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but I'm not ready to ascribe him all of the blame because you, you have to reward a guy working hard. You know what I mean? Like, Andre Drummond's a perfect example. Like when he wasn't, you know, if he's running the floor,

like if he gets a block on one end and he runs the floor and he gets good positioning, He's expecting the ball in the low post, right? So I don't understand why, you know, Seiku isn't rewarded for that hustle, not by Casey and not by his teammates. I don't know if it's just because he's young and he's inexperienced. But I have no qualms with believing that he's capable of a lot more. So I don't think he needs to be in the G League. I think that the game plan should be adjusted a little bit because he's the brightest future piece that we have. and I don't think he's being utilized even remotely correctly.

I don't know what you guys think about that, but I'm just not ready to say, you know, he needs to go back to the G league because I don't think you should. I think he showed that he belongs at the NBA level at a super young age, and they should let him play. I think it happened. Yeah, I mean, I think it happens sometimes just with young players that just mentally they fall off.

I mean, the Pistons don't really have any real. recent examples. I mean, Luke Canar was used pretty sparingly in his first season. Yeah, but he even mentioned, like, that the biggest adjustment for him was 30-game season versus 80 games. And that was, like you said, not even playing that much. And I agree. Yeah, that's big. Yeah, I don't say, I'm not, I'm not trying to postulate that he's not at all his fault, because you can see him kind of walking around on the offensive end with his hands on his hips, right? But when you watch the games, it's, it's like clear his day that he's just not receiving. the quality of touches, you know, that he once was, especially, you know, about a month ago,

when he was not the focal point of the offense, but he was very clearly like an important cog in it. And he's just not getting that anymore. So it's a little more than the box score would indicate, right? Like when you watch, it's like, are they ever, you know, going to pass to this guy before there's, you know, half a second left on the shot clock? It drives me nuts. But you guys are free to, you know, respond to that.

But that's my two cents. So I'm going to take a sip of my one. water now. Yeah, I mean, here's the issue I see on offense. Like, it was irritating to me that he wasn't getting, it wasn't really being included because it's like, you know, he's the only exciting thing about the team right now. Well, back then, at least, I mean, you have Christian Wood now. Yeah, back then.

You know, at that point, it's like when the Pistons were, it's still up potentials and winning and drama was still in the lineup, it's like, you know, please, just give the guy the ball, you know, just want to see him and what he can do. It looks really promising. but there are some things, you know, you should say about, about Seku. He is still struggles in the way to the basket. He's still really adjusting to the NBA game. He gets swatted a lot, you know, like a lot, more than, yeah, about 25% of his

lay-up attempts are blocked. So, and that's just quite a bit. He's just, he's still growing into his body. But the issue is right now, I mean, you've got to be able to perform on offense if you, if you want to get those touches. And he's been terrible from the three-point line recently, for example. I mean, he's down to 29% on the season. And I think it's just kind of gone boom.

And Dwayne Casey has his own way of doing things. But, I mean, I would say ultimately, there's really no call for worry. The only real worry, I mean, I've heard good things about his work ethic. And that's really, I think, is going to be to tipping. really the X factor for a role player is, are you willing to work hard? Like, I'm not, I know at first people, people looked at him and said,

oh, he can play several positions. So do we have like a new Janus in our hands? And it's like, I think that's going way too far for probably any basketball player in the world who isn't Janus. But what they said about Janus, it's like, we knew he would be good, but nobody knew he would work this hard. So, you know, that work ethic is such a big,

such a big thing, even for a player with a high ceiling. Stanley Johnson, for example. I mean, say what you will about Stanley, his offensive touch was not there. He's a horrific score. Terrible. And, yeah, just terrible. But there was also on

like his, he just, during the summertime, he wanted to play in Drew League and pick up leagues. He didn't want to work in his game. And when he did work on his game, he didn't know what he was doing. Like, Dwayne Casey in his first offseason with the Pistons went out to see Stanley and he found Stanley practicing mid-range shots. It's like, if I'm Dwayne Casey, I'm like, what the fuck are you doing?

Yeah. It's like, what are you thinking? It's like, practice a three-point shot. And that's what he told him. He's like, start shooting from three. Yeah. And it never worked. But like Stanley showed up to his sophomore training camp overweight because he just

spent the whole summer eating and playing in drool in pickup weeks. So work ethic is such a big thing even for any, unless you're just naturally talented which is a shooter and you might be able to just have a career based on that. but I'm not worried. And hopefully we'll see him growing to a major piece. But I think right now he isn't worthy of that big role in the offense. And maybe it'd be bad for him to be very unsuccessful. Yes, exactly.

One of the other things that I kind of noticed about Sekew, as more teams kind of like found out about him, I'm sure as teams start to game plan and they try to take away what they know about him. And then the other thing that I noticed is there are times when he goes in, he tries to drive, and the opponent will draw a charge on him. And I think it's shaking his confidence a little bit. I think that's part of the reason why he's shooting so poorly, and part of the reason that he's not getting as many touches,

I think he's passing up some of those looks. Like, he's not trying as hard to get open because I honestly think his confidence is just a little bit shaken. And those first three games, when he got the ball, he let it fly. And it was like one smooth motion. And he had a great jumper. And that was really encouraging. That's part of the reason I'm not too worried about it. And that's part of the reason why I wanted to send him back to the G league is because I think him getting his confidence back and being in a place where he's comfortable and he can kind of remind himself, yeah, he's got a good jumper and where the defense isn't quite as stiff.

it would be good for him to kind of build his confidence back up because I think really that is the main issue. I think that's an issue with a lot of players. Like I've maintained that I think Kyrie Thomas could be like a good rotational player just based on what I've seen from him in Summer League. Because in his first game, he dropped like 29 and he said he was comfortable. The next game, there was expectations from him and he didn't play that well. So, Saku, I would send him down there, let him relax.

I've seen enough from him this year. I don't really think that we need, I don't think there's a whole lot of benefit to forcing more looks and more touches from him. If you think that it's going to shake his confidence further. Because if he's already shooting poorly and he continues to shoot poorly, you don't want to do long-term damage to his confidence. confidence. Yeah, and that can be a big thing for a young player as well. I mean, I know this applies to a different league, but, yeah, I don't know. This applies to a different league, of course, but yeah, it's all, of course it is. Like in the NHL, the teams have the luxury of bringing players along much more slowly.

It's just, you know, it's just the way it goes. But a real effort is given toward not putting players, a real attention is given to not putting players in situations in which they won't be successful because you don't want to hinder their development by just just, you know, tossing the NHL and watching them get just beaten to a pulp. I mean, not necessarily physically, but just being very unsuccessful. It can be bad for a player's confidence. And then that can in turn be bad for a player's development. So I suspect we'll see him finish the season out with the Bistons. It's entirely possible that the powers that be in the organization, Dwayne case he included,

feel that he just has more to gain from being with the team. And maybe they think he's just done with the G League and that there's just nothing there for him. But I kind of, I think it's okay the way things are going right now that he's just, he's given less time and he's given less responsibility. And I'll say how it is. He's been bad. You mentioned Kyrie Thomas.

Why don't we talk about him a little bit? Because he just hasn't gotten that opportunity. He, I mean, he's been unlucky with injuries. In his rookie season, he was injured in. training camp. That's what really gave Bruce Brown the go over him, which I don't think was ever really a good decision because Brown was quite bad as a rookie. I mean, so, and then he's injured again to the start of this season. Summer League, he did have that good first game, and then he was asked to do something he's very bad at which is create offense. I mean, he's the thing with Thomas.

He is not a good passer. He is not good at creating, you know, at shooting off the dribble. He is a three-and-d-player. And you have to be pretty darn good. it's a three-point sure to be a good three-indee player. But you see guys like Danny Green who do it just fine. I mean, you know, I'm not saying Kyrie Thomas is going to be on the level of Danny Green, who's a pretty darn good rotation player. But I'd like to see the guy get a shot, like a legitimate shot, put him out on the court and let him play minutes.

It's like your goal is not to develop Langston Galloway and Brandon Knight. I mean, and at this point, you know, this organization should be looking to exploit whatever talent is there. I agree. I think so. Yeah, it's just irritating to me. Anyway, why don't we move on to what's probably going to be the final topic tonight on the podcast. I know Dante, you had the opportunity to actually sit in on a seminar business in which, yeah,

in which you got some inside information that was, that was very interesting. So why did you talk about that a little bit? It was a cool experience. and basically through my law program, it's like half at Windsor, half at the University of Detroit, Mercy. I just one day I got this email talking about a sports law conference with the Pistons, and Arndtellum was going to be, you know, the keynote speaker. And they were going to send us to the game too after.

So that was pretty cool. So my friends and I bought tickets, and we showed up to Little Caesar's Arena. And they took us up to like a box kind of sweet, like almost like a conference room, kind of multipurpose room. It was really cool. There was like, you know, these signed jerseys hanging up everywhere and they had like a couple of like Larry O'Brien replicas. It was really cool. But basically, Arne was talking about, Arn and his, you know, his co-counsel and some of his assistants.

They were talking about what it's like to transition from the world of being a lawyer and the law to getting into sports agency and, you know, things of that nature. And there's a Q&A at the end. And my buddy, my buddy Chris, he's not even a Pistons fan, but, you know, shout out to him because he ended up asking a question about why the G League affiliate decided to go with, you know, to like partner with Wayne State instead of Detroit Mercy. And they talked about like, you know, the air conditioning, some menial stuff a little bit. But what I, what one of the co-counselors kind of let slip out was he said something to the effect of like, yeah. And you know, since we're going to be rebuilding, we want the young guys to be close and

proximity and he mentioned Seku specifically. He said if Seku needs to work on something with the G League team, then he's right there. He's within walking distance and as they're talking, I remember I looked over at my buddy like you know, he just cracked the Da Vinci Code

and I was like, your question just answered more about this franchise and where their heads at and what they're doing than anything that I've you know come across in the last five or ten years. So good on you. But that was, it was just It was just crazy to hear it, like, come from, you know, an executive member of the team like,

oh, yeah, we're going to be rebuilding. And he just, like, slid that in there. And then we all went and we, like, ate fried chicken and popcorn. And I was just thinking about it. Like, I can't believe that he said that. So that's some clear direction, right? I think. Yeah, and this was before they had made that direction clear, right?

This was before the drum and trade. This was before any buyouts. This was, you know, just me sitting there, you know, in my Pistons jersey, listening to Arndtell and his assistants. and it was like a like a five second little comment. I remember thinking like, oh, that could be something major. And then, you know, they ship drummond out for a second round pick. And then everybody's getting bought out left and right.

And it was crazy. It was crazy. So I'm glad that I got to hear it. And then I get to let everybody else know. But it's one of the coolest things that I've ever done for sure. And I'm just glad that something useful, you know, something pertinent came of it. Yeah, that does sound really cool. It was.

Yeah, I'm sure it was, you know, it was like the, like the clouds parting and the ray of sunshine with the, you know, with the hymnals and the backgrounds. Oh, yeah. Thank goodness. Yeah. He looked, he looked right at me when he said it. He knew that I knew. Like, we made, like, eye contact. And it was, for sure.

I was, it was the craziest thing. And I was just so happy to hear. And I was, like, thinking about it all day. I was like, they're rebuilding. No way. And then, you know, a couple weeks later, they go out and they do it. I mean, or they take the steps towards beginning to do that. So to hear that firsthand, I don't know, it was, it was crazy.

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that is awesome. So, yeah, we're getting pretty close to an hour here. So how do you guys have anything else you'd like to talk about before we end the episode? How'd I do? Oh, you did. Great, man. It was a pleasure having you on.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. All right. We'd love to have you on the show again sometime. I appreciate that. Yeah, so yeah, thank you, Dante for being here. You're welcome. Thanks for this episode with me.

I appreciate it, guys. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely, man. Yeah, this was fun. And I'd like to thank everybody for listening. And we'll catch you in the next episode.