Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 130: Midseason Review! (with Jack Kelly of Detroit Bad Boys)

Episode Date: January 11, 2023

This episode, featuring guest Jack Kelly of Detroit Bad Boys, reviews the season-so-far at (slightly past) the midway point: thoughts on the season to date, developments versus expectations, and player grades for the youth.

Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to Drive Into the Basket, part of the basketball podcast network. Hi, I am Mike. joined today once again by Jack Kelly. Jack, it's always great to have you on the show. Thanks for having me, Mike. I'm my positivity is waning a little bit, but always happy to jump on and talk Pistons Hoops with yourself. Absolutely, and it's always great to have it on here.

So this is going to be a, as I mentioned last week, a sort of mid-season review episode. We are past the midpoint of, I mean, it seems like it's gone really fast, but not in a good way. Like, not in a good way at all. Like, I know we were both really looking forward to the season. It's like, you know, you've got Cade in his second season. You've got Ivy. You've got Jay one darn. You've got, you know, other young guys, Sadiebéiq Bay was coming up as 50-point game, which is, you know, whatever.

But it really has not gone as we had hoped. Yeah, for sure. I think, I mean, the season itself, 20 games in, there was injuries to reserve players. you know like burks and marvin bagley and then they came back and cades out then there was confusion with cades injury for three four weeks and then cades out for the season um we've had jalen du wren out but overall it's yeah it's definitely being an being an underwhelming season to say the least it's been hard to find i mean there's been positives here and there i'm sure we'll talk about killing hayes and azay stewart amongst others

but it's just felt like one of those seasons where it's been hard to gain any, any positive momentum for any long stretches. Yeah, definitely. I just want to note, Jack here is Jack underscore Kelly underscore 313 on Twitter. Check him out. It puts out a lot of good material on there. So, yeah, it's, it's been a rough season. Without a doubt, it has been a very, very rough season.

And why don't you, like, how did you, I mean, I know we were both completely wrong, and there was no way to say, you know, to, to predict what was going to happen to Cade, but how did you kind of see this season going, like beforehand? Like your vision of the season, what did you think it was going to look like? For Cade in particular, or the Pistons as a whole? Just the Pistons as a whole, I suppose.

Yeah, so I pretty much, coming into the season, my expectations, I guess, from a win-loss perspective, weren't high. I pretty much had this team around 28 wins, I thought, was, I'm pretty sure that was their line coming into the season. So, but for me, the wins and losses wasn't really going to be a way to measure the team as such this season. I was more so once again just looking for growth in chemistry. Obviously, injuries have taken away from that. But my hopes were high.

Like, I thought we would see this team be competitive on a nightly basis. The days of, you know, this past week, I think they've had two blowouts, had one against Portland. The Spurs was a pretty yuck game for lack of a bit. better term. And then obviously yesterday was another blowout. I thought the days of those types of weeks were gone, but obviously not. So I think that's been a disappointing thing for me is just been some nights. It just doesn't look like this team's ready or the effort's not there. And they have had a travel heavy schedule because of the game they will play in Paris in the next couple of weeks. Their schedule's being condensed. But yeah, it's just, like I said

earlier, there just hasn't been that positive stretch where they've really had. three weeks of, you know, just competitive basketball with wins sprinkled in. Yeah, I kind of feel like this has been the most drudgerous of the three rebuild years so far. You know, I've got to say, and like I noticed last week while I was, while I was recording, like I was recording, I think, on the 4th of January. And, no, that would have been the 3rd of January, I think. And I looked and it was exactly three years since the news had come out that the Pistons were basically trading drummins.

They're putting them on the market and pivoting to a rebuild. So we're exactly like three calendar years into this. But this is like, yeah, this is year three of like the total rebuild. And I kind of feel like this has been the most onerous of the season so far. Yeah, I would agree with that.

And I think it's, I think that's why Troy Weaver's been catching some heat, at least online amongst the fan base. And I think it's really, it's tricky because the glaring issue is that the franchise players, he's out for the season. He played like nine.

games and he's been dealing with the shin injury the whole time. And I think the fan base as a whole is obviously just starving for some form of, when I say success, I mean just something to grasp onto positive. Like it's been, I don't think these teams made the playoffs since 2008, maybe 2007. I mean, sorry, won a playoff game, my mistake. Yeah, since 2008, yeah. They've been swept twice. How could I forget that?

Three times, actually, 2009 also. Okay, well, there you go. So, I mean, that's why this, I think everything becomes magnify even more on top of already. This is the third season. But that's why it's tricky to get a measure on this rebuild. Like this season clearly is a step back or it's definitely not a step forward. So, but you also don't want Troy going out there making any kind of wind now move because you want the season how it is now.

You want to finish in the bottom three. But all these losses and uninspiring basketball just. from an outside perspective amongst fans and media, it's, yeah, the, Troy Weaver's going to cop heat. So it's really tricky. And it's sort of just, it's, yeah, quite depressing, really. We're sort of just stuck like this. We're just stuck like this. And, yeah.

It's been tough. I still, if I look back to the Van Gundy days, for example, and, you know, I don't like that guy. I really, really don't like that guy. And it was like, I guess it actually, like with Van Gundy, it was really frustrating to me because I just despise this coaching on a nightly basis. It was actually after it reached its pinnacle of that for me when after the Pistons traded for Blake Griffin and Casey's first season, when the Pistons were clearly just competing for nothing with no future at all. And this isn't anywhere near as bad as that. It's like, you know, this team has actually has a purpose, has a goal that does not simply make the play. that does not simply have the venture capitalist owner who treats it like a venture capitalist

project, which is basically, you know, we just need to get it going and then it'll snowball in and itself once it starts becoming successful. It's just not working basketball. I need to talent. So I'm still a lot happier than I was in that first season, first full season with Griffin. But it's gotten unenjoyable. I'll stick with it. But lately it's been unenjoyable. The Sixers game, the Spurs game, definitely the Trailblazers game. I really, the Trailblazers game. I rarely turn games off. I didn't watch the fourth quarter that one. Yeah, the Blazers game, that was rough. I think as well, I think what I've seen is, I mean, I've seen Jaden Ivy, his rookie season, yes, it hasn't been, you know, he hasn't blown everyone away. I think he's sort of performing

to what most level-headed fans slash, you know, people like us who cover the team. This is sort of what we expected, even just in terms of a stat line, percentages, turnovers. But I think, think the days are sort of gone for the fan base because we are in year three of sort of just getting excited about those little slithers as much if that makes sense. Like, I feel like if Jaden Ivy was doing this in that COVID season, people would be really excited by it, but I feel like the fan base as a whole is just sort of drained a little bit. And I'm not saying that covers all Jadens. Like, he's been definitely a frustrating player at times.

But I think that's, yeah. The Killian Hayes thing, that's a different story because he's sort of turned. He's come out of nowhere with his resurgence. But yeah, I feel like this third season has really just put a damner on the younger players a little bit as a whole. Yeah, and the roster has issues too. That doesn't help things, I would say. Like, you know, nobody, I mean, I wasn't sad to see Jeremy Grant shipped out for, you know, especially for what the return was.

The return was ultimately with Jaywin Duren. but you know, you lose a player like Duren that hurts. You replace his, excuse me, like Grant, that hurts. You replace his offensive production with Boyon and then some, really. Boyon's been great on offense, but he can't play defense. And Sadiq Bay takes a downturn and kind of like just a lot, a lot went wrong. The roster is just a little bit of a mess. And as opposed to last season where you really had Cade and he was just always something to be excited about.

and even though he started slow, I mean, it was always enjoyable to watch him. Yeah. And, you know, across the breadth of the season, and we don't have that right now. And so the games can be a bit drudgerous. Yeah, for sure. I mean, the second case,

I mean, we all knew the season engine surgery was coming. It makes sense. But once that was announced, I feel like a lot of fans, it honestly feels like a lot of fans who just stopped watching. Like, I'll be on Twitter or in the game thread. on DBB and just the comments or just general people talking about it online, it's, um, you could see the engagement has seriously dropped off.

And I would say that filters across any way you can watch the pistons or listen. Oh yeah. Yeah, the last month. And that's the thing. They had this, they had the Warriors win and the Timberwolf's win. The Timberwolf's win was mainly because of the bench and the veterans. And then the Warriors win, that was a fun game. but the way they have won these games doesn't feel like a sustainable way to build from the next game forward, if you know what I mean?

It doesn't feel like whatever they did in those wins is going to lead to a good month of basketball. The process just, and yeah, nothing feels sustainable. And I think you had that post-all-star break last year. We might get that this year. I don't know, but watching Cade sort of find his way at post-all-sar-break especially, that was those couple of months for really, uplift me, I guess, just to watch. Yeah, I mean, Kate could make an entire game enjoyable to watch. Yeah, just on his own.

There's nobody on the team who can do that at this point. I mean, you look at Boyon, go out and have a great offensive game, but, I mean, it's not in the name of, you know, any real goal. And Boyan is 33. I mean, he's, this is that Boyan and Burks and Berks has been great. I'll be respect to both of those guys. I mean, they're not, they've both been really good on the court. They're not, well, not on defense for Boyan, but they're not the future of the team. So, yeah, it's been tough.

but I also feel like the Pistons been getting blown out more than they did in those first two seasons when they were actually, it was a surprisingly competitive tank on most nights. Especially that first season when there was no fans in the stands.

That team was, they were much more competitive. I think last year they did, they had like a 13 game losing streak in there, I'm pretty sure. I think post pre-All-Star game, there was a fair few blowouts sprinkled in there, but I think having Cade mask some of those,

you don't have Cade this season and the blowouts. And Jaden Ivy's sort of, struggling since he sort of struggled since his first 10 games and then he had that injury and he sort of hasn't been the same since but yeah it's been rough it's been rough definitely i had called like uh i think 31 wins i thought that this would still be the bottom three excuse me a bottom three team in the conference but i did not anticipate things getting this ugly uh and they're often just not being really a tremendous amount to watch to be excited about when i watch games but Yeah, it is what it is.

And, you know, if the Pistons come out of this with Wemba, or even with Scoot, then, well, those threes make me a little bit scared about that. But if the Pistons come out of this with the high draft pick, then maybe we'll feel better about it. It's just like, man, I didn't want to have to say that about the season. I just didn't want to have to say, man, you know, everything's going to be fine as long as we got a high draft pick. Honestly, coming into the season, even though I just said,

I thought we're going to, the Pistons are going to win 28 games. I just didn't even think landing Victor Wenbanyama or scoot, for that matter, would be in the question. So, yeah, so the fact that that's now the hope is disappointing in itself. Yeah, at this point, the Pistons are on pace for their least wins out of these three rebutt seasons. I mean, they only had 20 in season one, but that was only a 72 game season. Last year they had 23. Of course, you know, they might get there, whatever. it's completely meaningless.

But yeah, it hasn't gone as we hope. But why don't we just get into, you know, talking about that, you know, in more detail about how things have really gone. So obviously, we could talk about, you know, how things have gone with the offense and the defense. Defense has been a mess. And, yeah, why don't we talk a bit about that? So what's your opinion on the defense, basically, the Dwayne Casey runs? I know that he's gotten a lot of heat for a switch everything defense. Do you think that that, you know, how do you think that that has gone to this stage?

and then do you think he's been handling that role? I think it's gone poorly, but I don't think we'll get to offense, I'm sure, after. And I have more questions with Dwayne Casey on that side of the ball. On defense, I just think it's a flawed roster. Like, we don't have, it livers out, you're starting Bogdanovich, who we know what he is defensively. And then just actually, Greg Kelser pulled on the last game.

Are you going to put him out on the courts? Greg Kelser might improve the defense. No, no. He pulled just a miscommunication on a switch between... Yeah, I saw it. Yeah, between Stuart and Bogdanovich. And for those that might have missed it, there was a real simple clip.

It was just Stu pointing out or calling out the switch. And Bogdanovich just completely either missed it, didn't see it, or he just didn't do it. And basically it just led to a wide open dunk maybe. It was an easy bucket. Yeah, it was hardened, hard and shoveled a pass between them to Montresel. Correct. That's it. And it's just...

Like the communication stuff is just been a nightmare. Like Jaden Ivy last night, he had two turnovers to start the fourth quarter. And then he just sort of half got back and didn't really. I mean, Denver probably always going to score off his turnover, but he just sort of gave some ill-fated effort that just was like, it was like he was almost sulking for the foul. I don't know what he was doing, but it's just like, that's the sort of stuff.

It's just like at least get back and show that you care. you want to make up for your mistake. I know Killing Hayes the game before in Senator Turner had six turnovers. But on each, he actually got the ball back on a couple of them. So it's just, it's just been an effort thing at times, communication, inexperience. Jalen Duren misses rotations here and there. Yeah, I think it's more a personnel thing on defense. Yeah, I think that personnel are definitely an issue.

Like, without a doubt, Bogie is not a good defender to say the least. Ivy has had his issues. He's definitely looked down in the dumps at times. I've done it out there too. Duran is still learning. Marvin Bagley is a complete catastrophe. Sadiq has been awful. I do think that the switch everything is a little bit simplistic in a way that's not necessary.

I think that, like, for example, Durham was played as more of a drop defender for a while when he was first starting before he was putting a switch everything scheme and he performed better there. But yeah, I agree that there's not, though I don't think switch everything is really all that great. I think that it's unlikely that another scheme would make this team suffer. substantively better on defense. Man, have they been bad? Yeah. So, but what about the offense? What do you think on that end? Yeah, the offense, that's the end of the floor I've had, I've come around to question in Casey. I know that's not a hot, that's not a new thought. That's a lot of people have had issues with rotation, his offensive creativity. They've

probably been the two main things I've seen. And the rotations thing, that doesn't bother me as much. There's been some weird stuff for Killian recently, but considering how bad this team is I'm not too fuss with that. I'm more so, there's only so many more times I can see Sadiq Bay posting up, like, in the mid-range. Just that sort of stuff. Like, sometimes it just feels like the whole offense is just ISO-heavy. Like, I really wanted to see, or want to see going forward Jail and Duran use more as a role man. Like, I feel like he's been underutilized there.

Some of that is because the only guy that can find him on the role is killing. But also I just, even with Marvin Bagley, he's been really disappointing. And now he's now out for, wouldn't be surprised if he's out for the rest of the season. But even him, like the amount of times I've just seen him posting up or in the Dunker spot when he was an awesome role man last season. And I feel like that's one of his best avenues of scoring. I haven't seen, you know, when he's been on the floor with Killian, I just haven't seen that enough.

And pick and roll is nothing created. Like, that's the most used play in basketball. But sometimes the offense just comes to a grinding halt. And there's so many, like last night or yesterday against Philly, on those two Nerlands Noel jumpers that he took, which he did make, all four guys are just standing watching him. And it's just like, I'm not saying that's all on Casey either. That's on the players.

Sometimes it's just, but I guess maybe that does go back to Casey. But like, it's just, it's so stale. so stale and it's weird because sometimes I think he draws up some good plays out of timeouts or baseline out of bounds like sometimes sometimes yeah I don't think that that that would be one of his strengths on offense but you think so man I think they're awful I think he does some decent ones like I'm not saying he's a master of them but compared to what he runs in the half court I think they're decent so well yeah let me let me clarify this is I am biased in saying that I realized to late like end of game plays which are almost

invariably like give the ball the boy on and ask him to score. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's, that's in the half court though. Like, you know what was funny? That's Sadiq Bay game winner. Did you see the post game quote where it came out? He hijacked the play. He hijacked the play.

Like, thank God he made the shot because, yeah, that's like, that's not on Casey. That's fully Sadie just, yeah, hijacking the play. So that's where it comes down to me. of this is on the players and their execution. At the end of the day, they are still young, but I'm definitely willing to admit more of the blames on Casey on that end. And that's why, come end of the season, I want Dwayne Casey, I would happily have him in the organization,

but I think I'm pretty, I would be happy with a change come the offseason. Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, speaking as somebody who's trying to turn his Twitter into a wall that is not just entirely Dwayne Casey complaint tweets. I have to agree with you. Yeah. Yeah, I'm actually trying to do something with my Twitter guys. I'm actually like genuinely going to start trying to do this.

It's not just going to be me complaining about Dwayne Casey. Yeah. All right. So let's move on to the players. So unfortunately, we don't have K to talk about. You know, that's very very sad. Can we quickly talk about Kade? Yeah, sure, absolutely.

I just think, you know, how it's impossible to tell how much his injury was affecting his performance. For sure. I have a question for you, I guess, or something I want to do. discussed because yeah we didn't see much this season. I mean he had a nice stretch of four or five games but obviously that shin injury was a factor. So are you concerned? So my first question is, are you concerned about Cade's injuries, I guess history long term? I mean, he's now, last season he was in and out of the lineup. He had the ankle injury. I think he had COVID. Then he had some other injuries, which none of them are really long term, but he was out. And then

this season now he's going to miss 60 odd games. So I guess are you concerned about the injuries and how concerned you also about him missing a whole season and how that affects the pistons in year three with their development? I'm not concerned about the injuries. I feel like twisted ankles are such a common thing in basketball. Yeah. I mean it's yeah and a tibial stress fracture. I mean, shin issues. I mean, I'll qualify this. I don't have access to like the best, to the absolute best sports medicine care on the planet. And this was when I was considerably younger. But shin issues, yeah, if they are not properly treated,

can develop into something worse. But fortunately, they can be treated, you know, with, you know, through a variety of methods, it's a matter of keeping them from becoming a problem. Once you actually have to go through and treat them, then it's, they're more of an issue. Then it's just rest and waiting for the inflammation to go away. I'm not concerned, put it that way. As far as how it'll affect the development of the pistons,

I don't think much. I think it's a shame that he's not going to get this time on the court, but we've seen it with a lot of other players who will miss an entire season early on and go on to be just fine. And the team goes on to be just fine. For sure. I'm a little, I mean, I'm hoping this shin injury as well as the ankle sprained from his rookie season is what he's been plaguing.

He's outside shooting consistency. Obviously, if you have soreness in your legs, your legs are pretty an integral part of making a jump shot so hopefully that corrects his shooting consistency and yeah i think it's still it's still something for him to miss this whole year two of think about where kate could have been at the end of the season maybe with another yeah it hurts it hurts it hurts and i i think yeah hopefully the pistons draft well and everything you know year three they can still be on track sorry for year four of the rebuild but Yeah, I think it does hurt.

Yeah. So, yeah, as far as grading, I mean, I had this idea that we go through and grade the players, you know, for what it's worth. I would give him a big, fat, incomplete. I'm with you. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm just honestly looking at the list at this point just in terms of, like, I don't know if there's really much interest to talk about Boyon. For example, Boyon or Alec Burks or everybody's favorite Cory Joseph. One question.

Would you trade Boyan? So at this point, I think it would not be good for the young players to trade away Boyon because the offense would cease to exist, is my concern. I mean, he powers so much of it, but that's definitely something to, yeah, it's definitely something to talk about, I'd say on a future episode about the trade deadline. That's a long discussion, I think we could have. For sure. Yeah.

But, yeah, as far as Boyon goes, like, in terms of, like, grading the guy's performance, it would be kind of like an A on offense and a D on defense. Like a guy who gives you a lot of points, but plays horrible defense. Like it was one of the guys who was like one of the chief offenders and in terms of the jazz completely collapsing on defense in the postseason the last two years. Yeah, for sure. I think it's hard to give him any less than an A offensively. He said, I mean, I wrote an article on him towards the end of December.

And at that stage, he was shooting career highs across the board. Iso. He was one of the best ISO scores. like it was so I feel like some that might have tailored off but yeah I agree with your grades at both ends I don't think I need to so much about the defense yeah there's not I feel like there's just not a ton to say about a guy like boy on I mean he's on a really bad team he's scoring a lot of points he's doing it very efficiently and he's playing a horrible defense and he's not part of the future most likely and you come to a guy like Alec burke's again on defense on you know on offense it's like a I don't know the guy's a very solid bench player but I just don't really feel like talking about him, do you? Yeah, no, I think it's pretty simple with Alec. Like, he's been an awesome, like, he's won a couple of games. Like, he's been the main reason for a couple of the pistons.

Absolutely. I can recite the Denver game in Denver, and then, which I believe you were at. And then also the Minnesota game. When he almost didn't miss a shot, yeah. Yeah, like he's just, yeah. Yeah, like it's been as much joy as you can get out of watching 30-year-olds on a rebuilding team, Ali Berks and Bogdano, which have given us as much joy as possible. So, but there's not much to add.

Yeah, and it's a shame. I'd say unequivocally, there are the two most important members of the offense, in my opinion. At least as far as scoring goes, I'd say, I'd say it's almost, you know, I'd say the two of them are the most important scores on the team. And in terms of their impact, I know you'd say, say about Killian. Yeah. But yeah. So guys, yeah, veterans who are doing well, I think Berks is genuinely playing in the way that he is would be a positive. And any team, you guys in a elite shooter. And it's just, you know, a decent passer. But these are good guys are just not very interesting to talk about. And yeah, I think it's kind of like a mark of why the season is less enjoyable

than we would like that, you know, that they are consistently two of the best players in any given game. You know, you've got Kojo, Diallo, I think has just been very disappointing. Who would you like to talk about first? I'll put it that way. Probably Killian, yeah? Yeah, let's do Killian. We can do Killian. I think the main thing for Killian,

he's been spoken about a lot covered. A lot's been written about and spoken about. And I think the main thing I sort of took away with his absence was I prior to probably, like watching his resurgence or bounce back, whatever you want to call it, that gave me hope. But it was always just like I still don't really know. I still don't see this guy on this team past his rookie deal.

But yeah, I feel like just his playmaking. That was the glaring thing to me in the three games he was out is Jaden Ivy is nowhere near ready to be a point guard. Oh, no. So going forward, obviously a lot depends on what happens in this draft and who the Pistons select and whatever. But Killing is easily the team's second best playmaker, like behind Kate and you need multiple creators.

So there's now a question for me is like a real question is I think Killian, do you bring him back? Like I'm not saying he's a starter or whatever, but if he can keep up this shooting, which is it's still being like he's still not shooting well if you look at league averages. But very inconsistent. Yeah, like I was looking up yesterday. He's got a go-to shot, but it's the least efficient shot in the game the long term.

He's efficient at it, but it's the least efficient shot. So, you know, he's found a go-to move, and I think that counts for something. His passing in defense has always been, you know, that's always been a staple of his game. If he can keep, like, I don't even necessarily think he needs to get to the rim a ton. It'll hinder how much money he can make as a player. But if he can just become, keep developing that mid-range and get his three-point shooting up to league average, I think I would bring him back, obviously dependent on the draft. But yeah, I think he's, you need multiple playmakers, and I don't think Jaden is ready for that.

Oh, no. I think the ideal situation for the, I mean, I still feel like Killian is likely to top off is kind of like qualified backup point guard and a good team. That's a valuable player. I feel like in terms of, like his shooting, his three-point shooting is obviously improved a great deal. And that's huge. Inconsistent, but it's improved a great deal.

He's a very talented playmaker. He's, I would even, I would say that he's got better court vision than, than Cade does and is a better passer. He just doesn't have some of Cade's other assets. Like Cade's ability to break down defense is almost at will. Yeah. Yeah, Killian has just this incredible and incredibly frustrating hesitance to drive into the interior.

And it's like you said, with the pull-up too, yeah. I mean, if you can shoot like 48% on that, you know, fantastic. I mean, yeah, that's an efficient half-court shot. But if it's your go-to move, you've got to be way better than that. You know, if you're replacing drives with that, You've got to be way better. And he doesn't break down defenses. Yeah.

No, I agree with your points. And I feel if he gets that three-point shot, if you can make that consistent, like you can get that the 38% plus, that sort of offsets the reliance on that long two. But, yeah, he still needs to improve his efficiency as a scorer. But I think there is a question now, like, to bring him back. Because, yeah, not to rehash it,

but I just Jaden Ivy's not ready to be a point guard. anytime soon. Oh no, not at all. And Killian has, I mean, in the first like 20 games of the season, he was absolutely not really miserable to watch. Like, you know, no butts. It was, it was horrendous. It was some of the worst basketball I've ever seen anybody play in the NBA, ever. Two points to assist on like 20% shooting. Yeah, first 10 to 15 games, especially. It went on for quite, yeah, it went on for a significant period of time. Yeah, and it was, it was just awful. Yeah, he was on, it was terrible. And he finally picked it up, like, right near the end of November. I would say I would date that to a game against the Cavaliers

when he, I don't remember exactly how many points. He had a good game. To be honest, it started the game, Kay was horrible. Cade's last game in Boston, Keeling came off the bench and scored like 18 points. And he was just hitting all these shots. But he has had a few inconsistent games in between I would say quite a few, yeah. But he's bounced back. He's bounced back and that counts for something because in seasons past he hasn't bounced back. Yeah, I mean. Those two, three game ruts would go on for weeks.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, his sophomore season, like those 40 games in which he was starting next to Cage is because they wanted to see if he could do it or were just miserable, completely in our way miserable. So it's definitely been encouraging. I mean, he's a very high quality passer. He's a strong defender and I think he's improved as a defender. because he's not getting, well, the switch, everything helps because it kind of removes him getting

blazed in the, you know, just absolutely left in the dust and the pick and roll. It's not really as much of a factor. But he's been strong enough on defense, you know, that the pull up two is nice that, you know, that he can hit that. You know, it's away from him to create offense. And shooting threes, of course, is mandatory, even if he's been inconsistent. So he's been a minor bright spot. And I just wish that what do you think goes on as in his head that he's just not willing to drive into the interior, though?

I mean, that's high percentage offense. You get to the free throw line and you break down defenses and he just won't do it. It's interesting. He's always shied away from contact even when he tries to go to the ring in the NBA. He's always, especially going left or right, he always will like sort of drift away on his drives. So I don't know what it is. Maybe it's a habit. I didn't watch much of him prior to the draft, but I've seen some highlights and he looks like he could finish at the rim back in the German League or whatever.

maybe not. You didn't have to deal with contact there though. Yeah, so it feels like it might have just been something that hasn't been in his game. I don't know. It's funny. He's really gotten something like he's mid-range shooting. He will always pull up now. Even if he's like eight feet from the rim, he'll pull up.

Yeah. He'll never go through. So, yeah, it's obviously a mental thing. But I don't know what it is, to be honest, because he's big. He's reasonably strong. It's not like he shouldn't be scared of contact. so I'm not sure. No, I have no idea either.

But, you know, his improvement has definitely been one of the storylines of the season, and it's been great to see, you know, and if Killian, if his trajectory right now is good bad, a solid backup point card on the NBA for a good team, I mean, that's a spectacular amount of improvement. I would give him on the season as a whole, probably like a C. I would say B, B plus for like the last six weeks or so,

and like an F for the first F for the first 20 games. So, yeah. I'll give him a B. Oh, on the season? Okay, yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. Now a quick word from our sponsor. The NFL playoff picture is locked in, and the go-to place for wildcard ground action is drafting sports book and official sports betting part on the NFL. To kick off the road to Super Bowl 57, new customers can bet just $5 and get $200 and free bets instantly.

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Only at Drafking Sportsbook, we code TBPN. Minimumumage age and all with pretty restriction supplies. He's show notes for details. Let's move on to the other interesting guy in the back court, obviously. This be Jade and Ivy, who has had his share of struggles, to say the least. Yes, especially since coming. back from that initial injury. I feel like in his first 10 games, he was, well, in the games alongside Cade, he looked,

he looked better because he wasn't asked to create a lot of offense. I feel like everything he was doing, he was off like secondary action. So like coming off the screen in the corner, he was just getting set up a little bit more to get downhill. Now when you ask him, when he's running the pick and roll, he showed some minor flashes. But the thing I've noticed is obviously in the preseason, and coming into the draft, the thing with Jaden was the in-between game's not there. And he obviously spent a lot of time working on that.

And in the off-season leading up to his rookie season, and you'll see every time he goes to snake the pick and roll in particular, you can see he's predetermined already that, okay, I'm going to snake this screen, I'm going to get the defender on my back, and then I'm shooting. And that's where, so I don't think he's being selfish so much. It's more he's just, he becomes like narrow, like only focused on scoring and obviously misses opportunities for passes at times. And that's what leads to some really sort of rough-looking floaters or these sort of fade-away mid-rangers.

So, but he's obviously trying and like it's part of development. But yeah, the turnovers feel like in the past couple of weeks, they've been really bad. I obviously mentioned a couple of times when Killian was out. It was pretty rough. And Duane Casey sat him at the end of games at times, which I think is perfectly justifiable. But I think not to be too down on Jay. And I think we've seen plenty of flashes of like just the athleticism is just, it's off the charts.

Like it's the way he can get up and down in transition is just such a weapon. You know, we've seen him sprinkling into mid-range jump shots here. Some of them look pretty good. But it's all inconsistent at the moment. That's the thing with Jaden. And I think we sort of expected that. So I guess what are your thoughts? I mean, my thoughts is that my thoughts are that I expected him to my concerns about him going into the draft.

Number one, in no particular order, his shooting, his three-point shooting, I thought would be inconsistent. Just, you know, his three-point shooting was very inconsistent from Purdue. And the free throw shooting also is probably going to continue to need work. And it does. He's at 72 percent. He was going to have to refine his driving because in the NBA, you cannot just hit the afterburners, turn the corner on an NCAA defender going right and then score at the basket before the help gets there. It's never going to work, but it will work sometimes, but it's not a good thing.

Yeah. You got to be able to make good decisions and exploit the lanes properly. And then also the ability to make those split-second reads and passes on a consistent basis. And he has struggled in all four of those areas. So, oh, and his in-between game, which continues to be horrible. I can't remember the last time. At this point, it's like he's in the last four games, I'm not sure if he's hit a single mid-range shot of any kinds. So, and I feel like it's kind of, it's like you said, he goes about it robotically in terms of he makes the decision before he does something.

And I think then, you know, there are instances when he can get to the basket when he doesn't because he's already just decided that, oh, it's like, okay, well, I'm going to go this way. Well, it closed down. Now I have to pass it. Or I'm just going to take a mid-range shot. I'm just going to stop. Yeah. And take a mid-range shot. And there are games in which feels like he barely drives at all.

So I think it's been a rough transition to the NBA for him, you know, almost across the board. Yeah. And I think also teams got used to him quickly. They knew that you're going to do this and we're going to start game planning for you. And they just collapsed and he's finished. Yeah. Yeah. Now it's for him trying to figure out what's the counter.

How do I get back into the play here? Because obviously when they just collapse on him, that's when you get those jump passes out of the jump passes to turnovers or just travels or just turnovers, basically. Yeah. Yeah. It's been hard on him. I mean, Cade took the punch.

The kid, nothing gets keyed down. That's not the case with Jade Nadi. Well, Cade's like the opposite. He has a counter for everything. Like you said, he can break down defenses. Like, whereas, I meant, I meant that, I meant that he can struggle and he'll just, and it doesn't really, doesn't really bother him very much. Yeah.

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just saying in general, like, um, it feels like when you watch Jaden, like it's like you feel like you're in his mind. Sometimes that you can literally see, you can almost predict at times what he's going to do before he's just past. and I think that's just because he didn't have that in-between game like coming out of college. So, and you see it when he's trying to run the offense.

He's just, it's all very new and he's trying to process it and you can't, you don't have time for that in the NBA defenses and the level of athletes just, yeah, they burn you. Yeah, 100%. I mean, the margin of error is, I mean, the margin between scoring and not scoring and in between making a good pass and making a pass gets intercept is tiny. It's absolutely tiny.

It's a game of inches, yeah. And he's just, I don't think he's there yet. I'm not sure he's ever going to really be a primary hand, or I'm not sure if he has that, but absolutely he's not ready for it at this point. And then on defense, he makes mistakes. I hope those are just kind of more rookie mistakes than basketball IQ mistakes.

Yeah, I think he just, he gambles a lot. And then communication, that's a rookie thing, in my opinion. and he's definitely got the body type to be able to be a good defender, the physical profile to be good defender. It's just about him locking in and learning the NBA game. Yeah. Yeah, my last thing on Jaden was I just feel he reminds me a lot of Russell Westbrook. He does.

He does. The way he plays, the types of turnovers, the shots he takes, the risks he takes. And I'm actually fine with that. I think Russ, I know he's a controversial player, but I also think he was a very good player. And you just, if that's what Jay and Ivy is, that's who he reminds me of a lot. People probably hate on me for that, but I just wanted to put that in. Yeah, I would say in terms of differences from Westbrook, in my opinion, not as athletic, is not as oblivious.

Westbrook is quite oblivious, which is one of his issues. and my goodness I hope he doesn't develop along those lines because Westbrook was very good if he wanted to get to the first round and wanted to give him the ball all the time but the idea with Ivy is to get further and for him to be kind of number two next decade. In any case, in terms of a grade, I'd probably give him in terms of what could it be expected

from rookies, maybe about a C. He's really struggled. Yeah, but he's at some bright moments. C, C, plus. Yeah. All right, so let's move on to your personal favorite. This be Isaiah Stewart, who, You know, he's had his ups and had its downs.

He started at center. Now he's playing mostly power forward. And his shooting was really bad and then became much better. And now he's been really bad again. And it's definitely been an adjustment for him. Yeah, for sure. I think, like you said, the shooting, it felt like he was getting, he was shooting around 38%. He worked his way to that from three.

And then the last 10, he's dipped to like 25%, maybe even 12 games. So the shot, I guess you would say, is streaky. I think I've enjoyed him a lot more at the four than the five. I've enjoyed watching him next to Duran. I think I'm not sure of that long term if those two are the answer, but I've enjoyed watching it in the past 10 games, and I hope we get to see more of that closing the season. But yeah, look, with Stu off the dribble,

we've seen him attack off a couple of closeouts. It looks a tad awkward, but he's made some shots, made some nice passes. Him and Duran are developing a little bit of chemistry, a bit of big to big passing, albeit, like I said, awkward. I think defensively, I like it long term. I still think Stu's got to show he can protect the room from the weak side like Jeremy Grant did and players like Jane and Daniels do and those rangy wings. Still need to see that.

But on the whole, I would say Stu's been definitely one of the better pistons this season. On the whole, I think he's averaging career highs across the board, getting to the free throw line a bit more. So I'd give Stu a B, probably a B, probably a B, probably a B, us, to be honest, considering what my expectations were. Yeah, I've been happy with this improvement. I know that we both, like we recorded an Isaiah Stewart episode before the season began, and we both said we believe in the shooting. And I think both of us still feel that way.

The shooting, of course, has been absolutely key. And like you said, he struggled recently, but just he has to be able to shoot. I feel like to be like a positive value player in the NBA. And he's, his adaptation of Power Forward has been interesting. Of course, it's mostly just been him shooting a lot of threes. and then just trying to do some attacking off the dribble in advantageous situations. And I think he still remains quite limited.

I'm not sure if power forward's ever going to be his really, if he's ever going to, I don't think he's going to be a starting power forward in this league, but that way. But it's nice that he's displaying the ability to play both positions. I feel like his defense has suffered a power forward. Yeah. Yeah, to be honest, I've found it, I don't disagree with that,

but I've also found it hard to evaluate. a lot of players' defense, unless it's just being, like, just because of how bad the whole team has been as a whole, I've found it hard, apart from just looking at, like, room protection numbers or something like that. It's been difficult just because the perimeter defense is so bad on a whole. And I guess Stu at the four sort of contributes to that, but that's fair. Yeah, but I think in terms of his improvement, in terms of his ability to, as improvement is a three-point shooter on very high volume. And just as improvements in general, I agree with you.

I'd probably give Stuart a B. I think we might have different thoughts as to what his future in the NBA will be. I think he's just likely to be a long-term bench player. But a guy who is just, it is impossible not to like Stewart, and really no matter what he's doing. Yeah, so let's move on to, we're just going to do a couple more here. We're going to do Jalen Duren and Sadieke Bay. Jack here and I spoke during a pause and decided we didn't want to do Marvin

Bagley. Those people who listened to my last episode will probably, geez, did I talk about Bagley in the last episode? Basically, Bagley gets, just has not been good, and period, in my opinion, and it's just been very disappointing to watch and is not that interesting. Yeah, I don't know if you disagree with that. Yeah, no, no, I think he's being disappointing, for sure. Yeah. So let's move on to the other member of the front court. It's Jaylen Duren, who I did not expect him to start this early, you know, by any means. That was surprised, but he's been starting at center for, I don't know, like the last 15 games or so, I believe.

Well, since around, since I think December 9, so about a month at this point, or exactly a month at this point, actually. So, yeah, what are your thoughts on Jalen in terms of how his rookie season is going? Yeah, I think he's exceeded expectations. Like you, I thought we would see him start maybe the last 20 games of the season, not before the All-Star break, but I think, yeah, he's still learning. You can see that he's young. He has some miscues on defense.

He's pretty much just a clean-up guy offensively, but I think we've seen some flashes. We've seen him pretty effective as a role man. We've seen him make some short-roll passes. Like the passing is the thing that intrigues me the most. I actually just had an article release today, just talking about his catalyst for success and the intrigues surrounding his passing.

So the passing, I think that's a really cool aspect of his game. game. His free throw shooting after starting like shooting 30%, I think since he's been a starter at least, he's shooting like mid-60s, maybe even close to 70%. So that's been cool to see. I think that gives you some faith that maybe there's a mid-range dumpshot in there in the future. The rebounding, obviously, is just this guy's going to lead the league in rebounds for multiple years. You can just tell he's got all the tools. And yeah, for a 19-year-old, I think he's been excellent. I think he's averaging close to a double-double. Rim protection is a little bit, probably a tad let down.

Just considering his measurement, like how big he is, his wingspan. But I think just having him in the paint has really helped this team compared to it, especially when they had Bagley or Stewart the Five. You can see the difference with a real center. Yeah, definitely. I think that, I mean, my hope with Duren, I mean, he is having some issues as a rim protector. He's not really being used in drop coverage all that much. He's seasoned very much into the switching defense at this point.

So he's not doing like a ton of traditional rim protection. But he definitely, I think he's got some seasoning to do in terms of defending guys at the NBA level. And that's fine. And then the layups, he's got to work on. He dunks a lot. Yeah, the layups are still pretty bad. Yeah, he misses some gimmies at times. He just rushes.

It reminds me a little bit of Andre Drummond. Oh, God, don't say that. It's going to be on. No, but just sometimes. Yeah, just the way he rushes at times or, I don't know, some of his layups and hookshots just remind me of a young Andre Drummond, which I think he has, he will be better than Andre for what that's worth. Yeah, and it's been great to see him finally uses a vertical spacer in the Golden State game, for example. Casey, I feel like doesn't really like vertical spacing, but the during between his wingspan and his athleticism, that's very, very helpful, very helpful to have. And I think, you know, I think it's been promising.

I think he's very raw, which we both expected when he was coming into the NBA. I'm sure. I did. I'm sure that would have meant it. I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, he was a very raw player. I think he has exceeded expectations. I think he's a kind of player who might not fully come online until year three.

Oh, definitely. Yeah. I look forward to the, you know, to the improvement watching him develop. So I would give Duren, you know, just in terms of, in terms of against expectations, It's like probably a B plus the season so far. Yeah, I'd say B plus. Yeah. All right.

And then finally, Sadiq Bay, who I would say has been the most disappointing player on the team this season. Yeah. I think, unfortunately, the Bogdanovitch edition hurt him the most. And I say that because Bogdanovich sort of, Saddick's sort of trying to be a Bogdanovich, I feel like, because Saddik can't, you know, he's pretty poor defensively. And then when you see Bogdanovich, Bogdanovich is the exemplifies efficiency. So that sort of, you look at Saddik, there's sort of a similar archetype,

even though people like to frame Sadd as a 3&D player, those that don't watch Pistons enough. But so I think that addition hurt him because you can't really play those two effectively alongside each other. And yeah, it's when they have, it's just not being great for obvious reasons, mainly defense. And then just, yeah, it's been a real bummer to see the shooting just not come around.

He did have like a 10-game stretch where he was shooting 40% in December, but it feels like that's dropped off. I think he's been at his best in a bench role. So I'm fine with leaving him on the bench for the rest of the season because he seems to just want to really develop that mid-range drive gained, which involves a lot of sort of half post-up spin moves, which he can be effective at against bench lineups, but amongst the starters,

unless he gets that three-point shot back to really good efficiency, it's going to be tough to see him as a starter long term with any team. He's gone downhill. He was up at 52% from two earlier in the season. He's back at 56% right now. which is actually not 56, 46% 56% be fantastic 46 is still a career high, not by very much

and yeah, it's gone downhill for him. I mean, he is not, he's trying to play a very different role, and it seems like he doesn't really know what that role is and he's just trying to carve out something and it leaves him in no man's land. And when he just accepts that role,

if he just plays that role of I'm going to catch it and I'm going to shoot it and maybe I'll do some attacking off the dribble, he seems to do better. But I don't think his head. is really in a very good place right now, both in that decision-making and in terms of the fact that he went from, like, reasonably study on defense to absolutely terrible. Yeah.

So this has been the bizarre story of the season. It's almost, yeah, it's almost like he's gotten a bit too bulky. Like, he's always, he came into the league, like pretty well-built for a rookie, but it's like he's getting too big or something. Because he's huge. Like, he's a stocky. He's too-30, he said.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think Sadeghzo is also a good example just for fans. of when you draft players. Like, Jade and Ivy, for example, like he sort of knew he's going to be a bit of a project. Not as much as Killian, but, you know, with Benedict Mathuron looking the way he has,

or at least he started the season. It's just there is players that will come into the NBA in their first season and thrive. And then, yeah, that's sort of just don't, I'm basically just saying don't fall off these development players like a Killian or don't get too low on Jade and Ivy, even though he is struggling. Some players just need two to three seasons,

whereas some can come in and look good and probably not really improve a whole lot from there. They're just more NBA ready. So how would you fix Adiq? Would you just send him back to that just very kind of pretty standards role he was playing throughout most of last season, just shoot threes and do some creation from the interior? I think for the rest of this season,

leave him coming off the bench, keep his comp. When he comes off the bench, he can sort of score. He's got more scoring opportunities. He gets to handle the ball more. try and keep his confidence some sort of try and get that his confidence high and then in the offseason you just go back to say he's going to make your money in the NBA if you want to be a starter in my opinion you would just shoot catch and shoot and focus on defense because I think he can be better defensively I think so too he's expending too much energy trying to create off the dribble

maybe he needs to drop a few pounds I'm not sure but yeah yeah yeah so I would give him a C minus on the season. He's been the major disappointment of the season so far. I would give him a D. Maybe I'm being kind. Yeah. Yeah, I've been, unfortunately, he has been the most disappointing player.

Yeah. Yeah, and I know that there was the 50-point game. I'd like to bring up the reminder that Corey Brewer had a 50-point game. Terrence Ross had a 50-point game. And if you go out there and you get to shoot the ball a lot and you hit 10-3s, you're likely to have a good game. It's just I don't know

It's I just I thought that we would continue to see Some positive upward trajectory And instead it's been a very disappointing season for him So unfortunate We still got half a season to get it together All right any closing thoughts Not really man

I hope I'm You know I want to see I think Jail and Dorens out Against the Sixers In the next game So I'm hoping we can get him back into the lineup Because watching him and Stu together has been, I guess, one of the positives just watching and develop chemistry.

And I hope Jalen Ivy can sort of maybe post-all-star break just start to find a way to counter some of the defensive. The defenses you're seeing and just, you know, have a good stretch of play because I think the fan base really needs something to grasp on to. Yeah, do you want to know something else? That's fun. Boyon is out against the Sixers as well. So that should be a good time.

Yeah, of course, once this episode post, the Sixers game will already have been played. though Isaiah Livers might play. Yeah. So in any case, Jack, always pleasure to have you on the show. I want to thank you again for coming on. This is Jack Kelly, Detroit Bad Boys. He's Jack underscore Kelly underscore 313 on Twitter. Check him out.

And I hope to have you back on the show again soon. Absolutely, Mark. Thanks for having me, man. Absolutely. All right, folks. So thanks as always for listening. Catch you in next week's episode.