Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 134: Was That Trade Wise, Man?

Episode Date: March 1, 2023

This episode recaps the trade that brought James Wiseman to Detroit: the background, Wiseman as a player, considerations, and what would make the trade a success.

Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to another episode of Drive into the Basket, part of the Basketball podcast network. I am Mike and yes, back from another hiatus of a couple of weeks here. So I know I had said back in December after my initial hiatus that I was going to try to get back to doing this on a consistent basis. I mean, I had done, I mean, I believe I had missed maybe like one episode in a year and a half before that time.

You know, recording the show every week is something I enjoyed. doing. I also enjoy doing it for you guys for the listeners. I'm very grateful for, especially for those of you who have been listening to the show for a long time. And yeah, I want to produce consistent content for you. So I want to explain what happened in this situation since I went the last couple weeks without recording an episode. What happened was that I went out of town to be with a family member who had a terminal illness who has since passed away. And, you know, even then had been planning to record an episode before I departed, just to schedule the post after I left. Unfortunately, left that to kind of the last minute. Things came up before I had to travel,

as they often do for all of us. And then when it came to last week's episode, just being in the midst the situation, I just could not find it within myself to, or even just a level of focus to sit down and record an episode. So I'm not talking, I'm not explaining the situation out of a desire, you know, to receive sympathy or condolences or attention. I'll put it that way. I just want to be transparent about what's going on because, again, you know, I made that commitments to record the show on a regular basis and it's just important to me that if I end up not doing that, that's, you know, again, that I'm transparent as to why that is. So, yeah, so that's current situation, pointing on getting back to a regular schedule here, you know, regardless of

how kind of unpleasant and futile the situation for the rest of the season with the Pistons appears. There's not really, doesn't feel like really a ton to look forward to at this stage. I mean, there have been some bright spots of late, but in terms of, you know, we're headed toward, like, what was the situation that I really did not want to be in again? As I've said many times, I did not want to find myself for the third straight season in the situation in the situation in the situation, like, I'm just rooting for the pistons to lose, like, and just getting stressed out. Are the piston's going to be able to lose down the stretch so we can get that good draft position? That was a situation I was not hoping for at all. And, you know, needless to say, the pistons are going to be in that situation. in which they want to lose as much as possible.

There's absolutely no benefit, you know, the cost-benefit equation in terms of winning games at this point is really not ideal. The lottery is a lottery, but the idea is to get yourself the best possible odds. I think we'll see the Pistons do some strategic tanking in terms of sitting players like they did the last two seasons. And then following the end of the season, I mean, we've got a significant wait for the draft lottery and then another significant wait after that for the draft. So I found last season that wait for the draft lottery was, you know, was the word.

you know, after the Pistons, after we knew where the Pistons were going to fall, then there was at least kind of something to tide us over, even if after that it was another month until the draft. Like, if I remember correctly, it's like six weeks, I think, between the end of the season of the draft lottery, end of the regular season on the draft lottery. So in any case, let's go and move on to what's happening with the Pistons right now. And of course, the foremost thing is Marvin Bagley playing really well. No, I'm just too. The foremost thing is the Sidique Bay James trade. So just to revisit the exact terms of it, this was Kevin Knox and Sadiq Bay were sent off to the Golden State Warriors. The Warriors rerouted Sadieck Bay to the Atlanta Hawks. The Hawks sent four

second round draft picks of the Warriors. The Warriors sent Kevin Knox, and I believe two of those seconds to Atlanta to bring back Gary Payton the second. Who it was found had a core muscle issue that had not been reported, that had the capacity to keep him out for a significant period. The Warriors decided to go through the trade. And it happened. And Wiseman's been with the past since four games at this stage. I'm recording this on my usual day, which is a Tuesday night, the night before it posts, post on Wednesday mornings, of course.

So let's break this one down. So let's start with Sadiq Bay. So obviously kind of a what could have been story. I think all of us were surprised by this trade. But, you know, we knew that Sadiq Bay was on the trade block. Of course, just being on the trade block, almost every player is available in trade talks, you know, at any given time. I mean, teams are always willing to do.

take calls. But it seemed like even though Sadiq had moved to the bench, he seemed like kind of a piece that the front office saw as kind of, you know, core personnel, so to speak. And we found some things out later on after the trade itself. For example, you know, we learned from James Edwards wrote an article about this that that Sadiq really, and Dwayne Kesey also came out and said something not directly about Sadiq, but just in general, that Sadiq had kind of been maybe going rogue a little bit had not been, that the organization had wanted him to be like, it wanted him to be a, you know, three-point shooter who maybe does a little bit of stuff off the dribble, but, but mostly just a perimeter shooter for that to be his core capacity.

And that Bay really had not necessarily wanted that to be the case. It had wanted to do much more to expand his game, to have a bigger role. And in Dwayne Casey said it pretty well. I don't have the exact quote in front of me right now, but that's, you know, any of these guys who come into the league, I mean, they all, you know, are thinking big. They're not necessarily thinking, well, here's what I'm good at. And I just wants to go out there and play this specific role. I mean, all of them are thinking big and that that can be a complication on a young team with all of these players coming in and thinking that they want to be a star.

And the vast majority of players are not going to be stars. Like the vast, vast majority of players are going to be role players. And the significant percentage of those role players are going to be pretty expendable, you know, kind of bottom of the. rotation role players. So it seems Sadiq may have been one of those players who was just really unwilling to is, how do I put this? Put it this way. He stepped outside the, apparently was not willing to content himself with the role that the team desired for him. Now, if we go back to last season, like the beginning of the first quarter of last season, when it was all just ISO offense and whatnot and everything fell apart for him and everything was terrible and he looked

completely agitated and they just fell apart on both ends. I think that was the coaching staff experimenting. I don't think that was Sadiq just going rogue. This season, it was a little bit weird because he just took a lot of bad shots. He forced a lot of bad offense. Like these instances when he would drive in and it's like there is no absolutely and utterly no way you're going to make this shot. Like attack the basket, defenders around you, you score from below the rim. You're not going to blow up on him.

He attempts to lay up anyway and it gets swat it or it just goes completely wild. These pull-up twos at which he was not good. these turnaround post jumpers at which he was not good. And often this was, like his best games were generally when he was just willing to accept this catch and shoot rule and not be trying to think about, oh, I'm going to get the ball and create off the dribble. It's like catch the ball, shoot the ball. And what I always wanted is Sadiq's next frontier was for him to be able to shoot motion

threes. Instead, we got to want to attack off the dribble, Sadiq. And I think that he can be a kind of three plus some creation. and in certain circumstances sort of player. I have never believed in Sadiq Bay as a player who's just going to be able to create a lot of offense effectively. It's never going to be worth giving him that role. He's had some games in which he's been able to do so. But in general, you give Bay to ball as a creator.

He's not going to do a great job at it. And also he's never really going to take advantage of whatever gravity he draws in the way to the basket. He gets absolutely tunnel vision done scoring when he decides he's going to attack the rim. I'm sure many of you guys, you know, all of us will think back to that recent instance. I don't remember the game it was against, but it was on a critical possession. Bay had Jayland Duren wide up into the basket, and he went for a bad layup anyway. He just didn't even think to pass the ball. So if you have a young player who's just not willing to stay, who's not willing to operate within the role that's weighed out for him, that's a problem.

Of course, it's not a problem on the court, which is less of an issue for a team that's, A, not trying to win and B, you're at the point of the season when you know, the season is lost in terms of outcomes. You know, you're not going to make the plan at the stage. You know, so it's not a huge problem on the court in that capacity, but it's obviously a problem for the coaching staff who want to play the game a certain way, who want to get, you know, the young players and everybody involved in a certain way who want to run a system. It's also just the problem for the future if you have a player who's not going to do that.

Mike, you compare him to, I don't know, Isaiah Stewart, who's like on a far end of the spectrum in terms of I am a team player. But I doubt the guy does anything at all that the coaching staff does not want him to do. He just, he wants to play his role. And that's the role that's, that's laid down to him. And you want all of your players to, I mean, you're not telling this player is not to dream, but you got to do what, you got to do what to ask if you on the court. And again, if we've had, we've had other recent examples before the rebuild of

the Pistons players are just absolutely not willing to stand in their lane. And that's a problem for any player. It's just a bad sign for a young player too. My impression of Bay and the impression that we were always given was of a kind of wiser than his year sort of player who could be relied upon, relied upon to make the right decision in the majority of cases and played very selflessly. And I think that's what he was as a rookie. And that for most of last season, that's what he was.

I'm not sure what changed this season. He definitely, I think we had that first quarter of the 2021, 2021, 2022 season in which it was just all ISO offense and everything went horrible. And the pissing, you know, the coaching staff seemed to just give up on it halfway through December. And Sadiq changed to a shot profile that was much more fitting for him, which was just threes and initiating offense largely from. within the arc, under 14, you know, under advantageous circumstances. And, yeah, this season that seemed to be just different, just that the role that he was playing was different. It was often very just dissonant in terms of the overall, you know, how we operated within the

overall offense, how he operated with regard to his strengths, his main strength, is three-point shooting. And also his defense completely disappeared. I'm still completely unclear as to what happened on that. He was like a sort of maybe a little bit below average defender as a rookie. He was, I would say, pretty average last season. You know, dependable enough, respectable enough, serviceable, put it that way. This season, he was absolutely not really horrible, like completely just dreadful.

I have absolutely no idea what happened. Was this a shift in his attitude? Was he was just caring much more about offense and defense was not just not on his list of priorities? I mean, who knows? You know, things can go wrong with young players in terms of attitude. Maybe I'm just trying to, I mean, I try never to do this. obviously, you know, am I trying to make the evidence fit the circumstances? Who knows? I mean, is it possible that just he went wrong in terms of his attitude this year?

I don't know. It seems like it fits, you know, if it's just a player who decided that he just wanted to focus more on his offense and more on trying to be the offensive player that he wanted to be. And he just devalue defense as a result. It's possible. I doubt we'll ever know for sure. I don't know what else could possibly have happened because you don't go from being kind of like a decent defender to being an absolute sieve and just a horrible liability for no reason, but we don't know. I've seen it speculated that he just put on too much muscle mass and just wasn't quick enough anymore, but that doesn't account for just the plethora of mistakes he made. So as far as, you know, what could have been with Bay, and what could have been is not obviously all that important because it

didn't happen. But oh, yeah, one thing I missed also, contract demands. You know, it came out through, I believe it was Jonathan Gibney, who's a reliable enough source, that Sadiq was asking for, I think, something in the realm of, like, D'Andre Hunter money, which would have been, like, you know, $80 million over four years, and that he wanted that extension this summer. The Pistons would not have given him that extension this summer because unless he had just dramatically turned things around in the final quarter of the season, it's like, okay, well, you just had your third season. It was worse than your second season. You, you know, we're not really operating within the role that we wanted for you. the role that we wanted you to play, your defense went to absolute, just became absolutely horrible. And in general, you know, that you did make some strides in terms of the ability, your ability to attack off the dribble, you still want to run all that good and that.

And in all things considered, you regressed in terms of your effectiveness. You were a significantly worse player than you have been in your sophomore season. We have issues with your attitude at this point. And then just you don't, you don't couple those two things together with, you know, we have issues with your ability to follow direction and you regress significantly. Okay, this is not a player to whom you necessarily give $80 million. So also a factor. So I would imagine it was those two together that led them to move on from Sadiq,

and apparently his trade value was not particularly high. So it has said, and just based on the return also. And we'll talk about Wiseman a little bit, of course. So what could have been with Sadiq? Well, I mean, if you were just taking the player he wasn't in the last three quarters of his sophomore season and just maintain that level of defense, and just maintained him doing what he was good at, maybe added some a little bit to his toolbox in terms of ability to attack closeouts

and ability to shoot motion threes. And I think there you've got maybe not the starter. We, you know, that a lot of us hoped he was, you know, that hoped that he would be, you know, a starter on a contender. But at the very least, a solid bench player, you know, who you can plug into the starting lineup in certain circumstances. And I mean, maybe he would have been that starter. Who knows?

So it sucks that that didn't happen. I mean, I think all he really had to do was just continuous trajectory from those final three quarters of season two. I just made it sound like a TV show from the final three quarters of his second season. Yeah, you know, Sadiq Bay Reality TV, you just got kicked out of the house, voted off the island, whatever you want to call it. So it's a shame that the Pists didn't get that, but if a lot of this, as was said, just boiled down to his attitude and just his mental outlook, then, you know, that's just

the way the dominoes fall sometimes. but it's definitely disappointing given the player we saw in his first two seasons. I'd say I have been often frustrated with Bay in the current season, but I'm disappointed that it ended this way. And I don't think that,

I mean, I'm trying to think, is there any place for the organization has blaming this? I mean, if it's a player who's just unwilling to follow the plan, so to speak, and I think that for all of Dwayne Casey's fault, he, I mean, he's a, you know, he's a solid enough as a developmental coach.

he is basically liked by everyone. Seems to be a very non-controversial guy who just works very well with young players and none of them have anything but good things to say about him. And I imagine probably Sadiq Bay would have nothing but good things to say about him. He just perhaps didn't listen to the guy. So whatever the case, disappointing end to Sadiq's tenure in Detroit. And now we got 50% of the core four gone.

You remember that core four that we've called it from 2020. Of course, Saving Lee being the other departed member of that. In any case, what's my... move on to the guy who replaced him. That is James Wiseman from the Golden State Warriors. Of course, the second overall pick in the 2022 draft. About 7 foot, 240, 7.4, 6 wingspan. You know, excellent length, just excellent size overall. Good mobility, excellent athleticism. Yeah, let's just go over his strengths and weaknesses here. So in terms of coming into the league, this is what. So, no, let me actually preface that. Wiseman played a,

very, very short time in the NCAA. He only played three games from Memphis before he was ultimately suspended by the NCAA after an investigation into basically incentives given to him or money given to him for certain things by the program. And he was suspended, I believe, for 12 games. He just decided to leave the program overall. The guy almost undoubtedly knew that he was going to be a top five pick in the NBA draft regardless. But basically what this meant is that teams were going into the draft process with very, very little knowledge of Wiseman as, you know, just very, very little data on him.

You had data from high school, but high school, I mean, these guys who come in and are going to be first-round draft picks and the NBA, especially the guys are going to be like top 10 draft picks. These were like D80s amongst boys in high school. Like, you know, even on the AAU level, I mean, anybody, who is good enough to get into the NBA is going to be, like, even the guys who are good enough to be like just blue chip prospects in the NCAA are going to be like Titans in high school basketball. And there are plenty of these five-star prospects who do not go on to careers in the NBA.

So all we have is three games at Memphis. And of course, that's nowhere near enough to, you know, there's just a very, a big shortfall of data there. He was going to be a top five pick regardless. The Warriors took a chance on him because, you know, he fit a need for them. And these were the Warriors who had been to, what, like, five straight finals? Yeah, 2015, 16, 17, 18, 19. And then Durant left Thompson tore his ACL during those finals. Curry came in and it's like, oh, okay, you know, Curry's going to come in and have like a season for the ages. He got injured, missed the vast majority of the season. And the thoughts going into that were, okay, well, you know, screw Golden State. They just had this amazing string of success. And then

And they get to, you know, basically, not by choice, but they basically tank a season and get a super high draft pick and then get to come, you know, and just recharge on that and come back. And, okay, well, now they're, you know, the risk get even richer, even though they have lost Durant. So Clay Thompson tore his Achilles on draft day. And clearly the Warriors have decided on Wiseman already. And, I mean, the thing is, if you're a team that's that good, you can absolutely draft based on need, rather than best player available. I mean, the Warriors were ostensibly, you have Thompson back going to be a good team. the next season. DeAngelo Russell, I can't believe, I can't remember if they had traded for Wiggins at that

point. I believe that they had. Wait, no, no, no, no. They said, actually, no, that's not the case. They traded DeAngelo Russell, and I believe Wiggins was traded. Whatever the case. This was going to be a good team, you know, the following season with Curry and with Thompson back.

So they could absolutely afford to draft based on need. Ultimately, they did not get Thompson back because he tore his Achilles. Whatever the case. This is just a discussion. And I'm just basically expanding on why the Warriors could draft based on fit rather than based on need at number two, which is a luxury that the vast, vast majority of teams picking in the top five of the draft just cannot afford. So, I mean, they have what they needed in terms of, you know, out on the perimeter. You've got Draymond Green, of course, operating at, you know, at Power Forward and, you know, and the Warriors are a metabending team. You know, if you have Curry and Thompson and, and yes, I actually just went and checked Wiggins was on the team.

He was traded in the middle of the 2019, 2020 season. And of course, at that point, he really wasn't all that great. But, you know, as the Warriors, just having Curry and Thompson and Green and then some other, you know, decent players. And, you know, they were going to be a good team. You can operate with three shooters if you're that team. Of course, the vast majority of the teams cannot. Whatever the case, you bring in Wiseman. And hopefully you have like an elite big man in the middle.

And that just makes your team even better. Because to this point, you know, the Warriors had basically just phoned in. in on center the last for the previous three seasons because you just don't, you know, you have that much power on the perimeter. You can just get like a traditional center who really doesn't need to do anything but play garbage man and defend the room of it, especially because you got Draymond to help him on defense, catch lobs, whatever, finish, basic traditional center things. So that made sense for them.

But, you know, there's a lot of talk that, hey, you know, if Clay Thompson had torn as Achilles these, you know, like three days earlier, would they still have drafted James Wiseman? My personal opinion is they probably would have drafted the lamella ball in that situation. I think it was just absolutely terrible timing. But also, again, they did not know that Wiseman would come in and struggle as he did, then get injured. And he just did the situation in which he was in account for how poorly he played in Golden State. Well, he didn't play much of Golden State, obviously.

But, yeah, let's just, let's go into why it didn't work out for James Wiseman in Golden State. So you can say certain things unambiguously about his performance in his rookie season where he did only play 40 games, 40 games out of a 72 game season. It spent quite a bit of time injured, especially toward the end of the season, and did not play well. He was not good on defense. He was not good on offense. It's like, okay, whatever, a rookie big man.

I missed his entire second season due to an knee injury. Okay, comes in this season. It weighs 25 games, not many minutes, and in a system that absolutely does not suit him. I mean, the warriors work through their perimeter players. They work through a very active motion offense. They have a very unique offense that's made possible by the presence of Green Thompson and Curry. It's not really likely to make much use of the scoring big men. And, you know, in saying that, yeah, you go back to wondering, you know,

was he really the best pick in any situation? You know, they have been better off just drafting, I don't know, the other good center and that's top 10, the other highly touted center, whatever. it was a Kongwu. Maybe they looked at him and just said, no, we can't use a second overall pick on him. I don't know, whatever. But, yeah, he came into this season situation and just had trouble finding his way in, trouble finding value.

It's not that he played well because he didn't. But Golden State was definitely just not a good environment in which, you know, for him to grow and find his best self. And everybody on the team who has spoken up has more or less said that, you know, that we really like James. We think he's got a bright future in the league. This just wasn't, you know, we wish him the best. this just probably wasn't the right situation for him.

And it doesn't have to, I don't think this is a lip service because players and coaches can just say nothing. I mean, I don't really need to say anything. And this has been kind of a, I mean, this has been the universal response from everybody and the Warriors who's spoken up. All right. So let's talk strengths and weaknesses. But first, a quick word from the show sponsor. NBA fans. It's time to bring a hoop to action with Palm Graham and drafting sports book and official sports betting partner at the NBA.

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because I recorded for about 15 minutes after I'd press the pause button without restarting the recording. So way to go me. Okay. So first and foremost, not necessarily foremost, but first, his physical strengths, you know, beyond just being, like, actually strong. Whatever. Excellent athleticism, very mobile. It can absolutely play above the rim.

Just gets around very well, moves very well, whatever. I'm just basically saying good mobility. He's got an excellent athleticism for a center. He's definitely in the upper ranks in terms of that capacity. Excellent size, seven foot, a fantastic seven foot six wingspan. And strong interior score just in terms of his ability to create, who knows, but to get him the ball around the basket, he's likely going to be able to finish at a high percentage, can catch lobs,

can play a strong presence on the pick and roll, just again in terms of his ability to get the ball, which he can do either above the rim or below it. That length is helpful, his ability to catch the ball is decent enough. You know, he's got decent hands. He's got some potential as a floor spacer, both from mid-range and from the 3.1. And on defense, he's got good potential just in terms of his physical assets. You know, in terms of his IQ, you know, we'll find that out. But he's got the length to really just do a lot of disruption in the interior, the length to contest shots well,

to block shots, and the mobility of the position himself in the right place. And, you know, also the leaping ability to come in from the weak side in swat shots. So in terms of his weaknesses, I mean, James Wiseman is still very, very raw. This is a player who is who has played a total of only 64 games in the NBA at, you know, he's averaged only about 18 and a half minutes per game. Again, he played 39 games in his rookie season and got injured and then, you know, missed his entire second season. And then this season with the Warriors had just gotten very inconsistent minutes. So, yeah, he averaged 12.5 minutes per game with the this season in 21 games. So the real questions, I mean, I would say his questions are about

skill development and IQ, but that's the case with like literally every player. So I'd say the big question mark for James Wiseman is just in terms of his IQ and decision making on both ends. Like we've seen that already in a short time of the business. Like on offense, just in terms of operating within the flow of the offense being in the right place, you know, being in the right place to cause disruption, being in the right to, you know, to just cause disruption for the defense, being in the right place to receive a pass, you know, just being in the right place, just in general for his teammates and what is required of him. Like, I don't remember what game this was, but in one of them he spent the first half,

basically the entire first half of the game posting up. And it's like, dude, that's not helpful. I mean, number one post offense, I mean, well, James Wiseman would be one of these rare players who is actually worth giving the ball to in the post on high volume. I know I've said it before on this podcast quite a few times, but it is very, very extremely difficult to be, to be worthwhile on volume post offense in the NBA, both because it's just, it's two point offense, that itself-created two-point offense against very difficult NBA defense. So, I mean, it's hard to hit that efficiency threshold. And not only that,

it's ball-stopping defense, excuse me, ball-stopping offense, which means that you're not moving the ball around to generate a high percentage opportunity, whether that be, you know, an easy finish under the basket, you know, an open lane of the basket, you know, for somebody penetrating from the perimeter or an open three. So you've got to be really darn good from the post in order to make that worthwhile volume. Is James Wiseman that good? I mean, we hope so, probably not. Whatever the case, if you're just posting up on every possession, you're not, I mean, you're not going to, you're just, you're not moving around and actually helping and actually helping the offense. You're just basically begging somebody for an out with, you know, for, you know,

to pass the ball to you and whatever. It was just annoying to watch. Did Dwayne Casey tell him to go do it? Did Dwayne Casey just go out there and say, do your thing? Who knows? I doubt that James Wiseman was just going out there and hijacking the offense. And he showed some improvement over the recent, you know, in recent games, but that, you know, in recent games, he's only been with the pisses before games.

But that remains a work in progress. On defense, he has been a mess. He has been a complete disaster in terms of defending the rim, both in terms of his actual rim defenses and being in position. So, excuse me, he's got strong as a. I said strong defensive potential. It's it's the IQ that's going to come into it. You know, that that's really going to be, that that's really going to be the deciding factor on defense. And right now he is very raw. And I don't think it's a matter of system at all. He just often

doesn't know where to be and what to do at the NBA level. And that's a skill that some players don't develop. For example, Marvin Bagley still has not developed it. So he's just, yeah, I'll just come back to this. He's very raw. He didn't really get much time to develop in Golden State. and Golden State was not the right place for him to develop. I mean, that's been pretty much a constant theme, again, from what Bobo was said by people within the organization. It was not really a place where he was able to get consistent minutes. Again, it's not only a question of minutes.

I mean, he spent a lot of his time injured, but even when he was healthy, you know, his first season he played, and again, he wasn't good, but he played on this sort of dysfunctional Golden State roster where basically all the scores, you know, they had lost Durant and their two other best scores. Claire, Curry and Thompson were both out. You had Draymond, who was a horrible minus on offense if he's not surrounded by stars because he can't score himself. And he plays at a perimeter position and cannot shoot.

And he was just terrible in 2019, 2020, for those reasons. And he was just playing. And also just a Warriors team in general that just had to reinvent itself for the season. He just hasn't had much time in the NBA to develop and refine his game. So he just remains very raw. And it's that decision-making, like shooting on offense. sure that would be a big thing in order to become like a genuinely good player. I think he's going to have to have that shot. But it's decision making on both ends, being in the right place and knowing

what to do and playing new strengths on offense. Just having that defensive vacuum and positioning himself properly and using his assets properly and just being able to make the right reads and decisions at the NBA level, that's going to decide it for him on defense. And I think, honestly, we're going to find on defense that either, you know, he's able to do it pretty well or that he's absolutely terrible. And I don't think James Weisen is going to, is likely to be an in-between player in general. When it comes to that, just that swing factor

on the decision-making, I think. I think Weissman will ultimately end up to be like an effective, doesn't need to be a star, but like an effective NBA player, you know, a pretty good, you know, decent center. Excuse me, it's just a pretty good, I know I keep putting it that way. I'm sorry, I'm recording this for the second time. And I feel like I did a good job the first time,

but I wasn't actually recording it. Because like a dummy, I forgot to probably. the play button again before I kept talking. I think he will either be an effective NBA player, you know, in a pretty good big, or that, you know, we'll find that he does have the capacity that it's just a question of developing, that awareness, developing that decision-making, or we'll find out that he just doesn't have it and he's going to flunk out. So Wiseman altogether, very much a lottery ticket, one that could pay off, I think could pay off well, or could just amounts to nothing. And I don't think there's going to be much in between.

And sure, that's the kind of chance you take as a rebuilding team. It's one of the business have taken quite a few times already. And yeah, we'll see. Again, not super satisfied with this segment. I don't feel like I really did it quite as well at the second time, but I hope you enjoyed listening to it. So considerations. Number one, Wiseman and Bagley both being on the team. So this is just kind of like a funny thing, which is that Wiseman and Bagley are both, you know,

kind of if they can get their shit together, pardon the language, but, you know, If they can get it together, players, if they can get it together, Biggs, who were drafted second overall two years apart, who both can't really shoot at this point, who both struggle on defense, and who both find most of their effectiveness just scoring from the interior. So the trade felt a little bit weird for me, given that you already have a player like that in Bagley on the roster. And Bagley, who's almost certain to be with the team next season, unless he's used a salary filler. to trade. He's got two more seasons at about 12.5 million. And 12 and a half million is 12 and a half million. And Bagley has negative trade value at this point. So, you know, he's sticking around. I mean, no team is likely to just take him on. I mean, it's a negative value contract at this point, whether it's a team that that has open cap space or a team that is going to have to, you know,

use cap space on him regardless and then paying the salary. So the two of them is a lot of overlap there, and it would be pretty hard to play the two of them together. I mean, sure, I mean, just yet, there's overlap. The fit is very poor. And sure, the Pistons are a team that is not going to win many games or the end of the season, or should they. However, you still want these players to be developing in something approaching a fundamentally sound offense, like with proper spacing, for example. And there's also the question of just development for the two with them. I mean, these are players who are both just trying to to find themselves in the, you know, at the NBA level, trying to find the team, basically the pistons are, of course, trying to develop

them into good NBA players. You put them both on the floor at the same time. I mean, they play the same way. So let's say, you know, one of them learns to shoot, which is going to be necessary, I think, for both of them, certainly for Bagley, who at this point, I think is extremely unlikely to get to, basically shooting is just going to be necessary alongside becoming a non-horrible defender in order for him to be a valuable postseason player of any stripe. Right now he is good for, I mean, he sees a fairly strong interior score. And, you know, he's good for, you know, putting up a decent number of points, you know, maybe, you know, sometimes a good number of points, you know, maybe against okay or good teams, largely against bad teams. But he's got basically no utility beyond that, you know, can't space

the floor, can't really play off the ball that well, you know, aside from finishing and certainly can't play defense. And, you know, his best position for, you know, for scoring in the end of the end, interior center, but he can't play defense at center. And he still can't shoot. And that shooting is going to be absolutely essential. And it's something that was really hoping to see him improve upon in the off season. And it's a skill that just didn't happen. Needless to say, he's still a pretty darn bad shooter. So unless he miraculously gets it together as a shooter, which again is just going to be a necessity for him. You can't really play he and wise me together. Even if one of them gets together, gets it together as a shooter again. You're basically just asking one of them to

space the floor while the other one finishes in the interior, you know, creates offense in the interior, that plays role man. There's just so much overlap there. So you have a tough time playing the two of them together, not only for the two of them, but for the players around them as well, if neither of them can shoot. Because again, that just makes life much more difficult for the other perimeter players in the floor. And it makes it much more difficult to run like a decent offense. And I know you can say, oh, well, look at Cleveland, they run Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. Okay, well, Jared Allen's an all-star. Evan Mobley is, is really very much a very strong up-becoming player.

They're very strong on defense to both of them, which certainly isn't true of Wiseman and Bagley. Maybe Wiseman will get there. I doubt Bagley ever will. And also, it's like, well, on top of that, you have, like, two absolutely, like, elite creators of the guard positions, and that helps quite a bit. So just, you know, both of their two bigs are just better players.

And also, they've got, like, two elite creators. I mean, if you have, like, guys, you can, multiple guys in the lineup who you can give the ball to and ask to score and create. for teammates on an elite level, and then that helps to, you know, to pave over certain weaknesses. Again, the cavaliers just get a lot back on the defensive end from the two of them. So, yeah, so that's a tough thing. You know, how do you play both of them?

How do you develop both of them? And how do you play them together in a way that's productive for the team and productive for Wiseman and Bagley themselves? And then you bring Duren into the equation because you can't play either of them with Duren either. I mean, Duren doesn't really have the same sort of overlap. I think he'll, he just will be a stronger. defensive player. He's unlikely to be one, I think, who's really going to be creating much offense.

You know, I think, you know, we see that that Marvin can do a decent job of that. I think Weissman will do a decent job of that, not on high volume, but Duren, I think, is just likely to be a finisher, you know, who I think will be probably decent as an interior passer as well, but it's just going to be hopefully a strong finisher who plays very strong defense. And the other, who plays strong defense, very strong defense as well. I think that strong finisher plus, you know, potential if we're talking, you know, if you buy into the idea and I do that a lot of his struggles on defense right now are just adjustment to the NBA and just need to develop in that capacity, then that's a good player, a guy who can finish at a high percentage, can catch

lobs, play well on the pick and roll, and play a elite defense on the other end, and hopefully do some passing as well. But you can't play Wiseman or Bagley next to him either because Duren too is, I don't, I'm not too confident Dern as a shooter, but he's also just, you don't want him stretching the floor on offense. You want him around the basket to take advantage of his excellence as a rebounder. And he's been extremely strong as an offensive rebounder this season. So, yeah, how do you play Duren with either of them? Like if Bagley can more to shoot, you know, cool, that's that there if Wiseman can wear it to shoot, you know, cool, that that adds an option. But again, just again, in that situation, you're not using them as his interior scores in that

case. You're not using them as role men in that in that case. There's just a certain amount of overlap. But at this point, you can't play any of the three with the other two. I mean, the Pistons will because they have no other option this season. They're just, they're going to do it. When you have Isaiah Stewart who can theoretically play with them at this point because you can sort of shoot, and if he gets a shooting together, then Cooley becomes more compatible with all three of them. But you bring Stewart into the picture as well.

You've got four bigs to whom the Pistons all want to give minutes, and how are you going to make that work? I mean, how are you going to give them all enough minutes to give them the role? and just the time on a court to develop that you want out of the four of them. So that's just a weird situation. You've now got a lot of bigs and three of them can't shoot. And the fourth one can only sort of shoot, but, you know, pistons are committed to using him as a power forward this season.

And I also think that Isaiah Stewart ultimately his primary position is going to be center. Now you ask, okay, maybe you play baguade way power forward. And it's like, okay, sure. Yeah, I think that's going to be his primary position on offense, on both ends if he's successful in the NBA. There's going to need to be a certain amount of development there as a shooter and just in terms of his offball acuity in general. And if you're going to play him with Wiseman or certainly with Duren,

I mean, that's going to need to be there because Bagley is not going to be able to be the primary anterior score. That's going to have to be during. And Bagley's going to have to be able to space the floor. You can cut to the basket for Lobbs and he needs to finishes and whatnot. But he's going to need to Bagley is going to need to diversify and change the way he plays. is to play with Duren. Like Wiseman, whatever, I'm just trying to do a broken record here. It's going to be a weird thing navigating all of this.

Obviously, I don't think even the Pistons, even the front office would see that the three of them, you know, like all four of the bigs on this team at the moment are all going to be, you know, that it's going to work out for all four of them. But it's just a weird situation. Then that's definitely a consideration. I've seen some questions about Wiseman. You know, if he shoots, can he play a power forward? I don't think so.

I don't think he has that sort of mobility. Like he's definitely got very good mobility for, he's got very solid mobility. It's, you know, for a center. Power forwards these days, it's a little bit of a different story. It's different when you can, you know, and we don't know much about Wisem's switch defense at this point.

And I forgot to mention that. That remains a question mark for him. It's a different story. Like you look with Isaiah Stewart between just playing switch defense on the perimeter and consistently defending power forwards on the perimeter. That's a very different thing. that Stewart, who in his first two seasons, was very much playing interior defense. And if he got switched on to somebody, and to defend them from the perimeter on in,

cool. But he was basically just playing interior. He was the defensive anchor there versus putting him out of power forward, where now he's got to chase people around and cover ground on the interior and so on and so forth. That's a different story. And I question if Wiseman is really suited to that. I don't think that just being a shooter would really enable him to play power forward. I think we're looking at him being a long-term center.

And that brings up another thing because Jaylen Duren, of course, is the team's long-term center. You know, it's almost certainly going to be a long-term center as well, I'd say with like a 99% degree of confidence there. So it's like you're developing the two of them. I mean, I guess your hope is that, I guess your ideal situation is that they're that they're both really good and you get to trade one of them. It's like, all right, well, it's just kind of like a weird end game to have.

Like those are your, you know, that's your ideal situation. is that they both do super well and then you need to get rid of one of them. But that wouldn't necessarily be the worst of outcomes. And finally, what would make this trade of success? Well, I think the answer to that is obvious. You know, Wiseman's a good player. Obviously, not what I'm looking for there. What's going to make this trade of success if Weissman can get it together as a decision maker,

especially on defense. Like if he is not, like, you have two options right now or maybe, again, I don't think you're going to find much in between, basically just that what he's shown in the NBA. far on defense is just who he is, that he's just got basically terrible defensive acumen, like Bagley, and that that's that. Maybe he can improve a bit, but he's still going to be bad. And on offense, you know, does this guy just know where to be and what to do?

That's an easier thing, but we don't even know that yet. So success is we find that, you know, that Wiseman, his kind of struggles and decision-making on defense are the product of just rawness, and he can get it together there. It can become like a fairly strong defender on offense. again, finding your way is, I think he'll get it together there as a decision maker. Because that's just a much, there's a much lower, they're much, much less in the way of the demands, particularly for his center. But yeah, and then on offense, he becomes able to shoot and just is a strong interior score. And that just gives them just some diversity that makes

them a valuable offensive player. That's where your success is. And yeah, again, the best case scenario is that both he and Duran are very good and you can trade one of them for real value. because, you know, if you find success with Wiseman and you find success with Duren, think they're both centers and you're going to have trouble, you know, getting anywhere near enough value, you know, whether against salary or just in general, you know, because you've got in that situation two very effective centers in the same team and, yeah, you trade one of them for help elsewhere. All right, just a final few subjects to cover, again, based just on questions.

that I've seen. Marvin Bagley himself, has he been playing well lately. So Bagley had, you know, in his two games back, has been good against not very good teams and basically just, you know, creating, getting a lot of rebounds and doing scoring in the interior when he's given the ball. And it's like that's all well and good. I can't really participate in the offense in any other way and he gets massacred on defense. So at this point, Bagley needs to diversify a skill set on offense and move to power forward and not be defending the interior, not be the primary interior defender period, because I don't think it's a situation in which he is ever going to be anything but utterly awful. Now, why is he

playing better lately? Is it a higher level of effort? Who knows? I'd hope not, because that means he hasn't been playing at a proper level of effort to this stage. But again, what Baguoy needs to do, become just better able to contribute on offense in more ways and become a decent defender a power forward, also be played a power forward, first and foremost. But man, does that guy need to learn to shoot in the offseason? Hamadio, scoring a lot of points lately, is he playing well? I'd say the same sort of thing. Hamadu is a genuinely strong score going downhill to the basket. I mean, there's no doubting that. Unfortunately, you can't shoot, which makes any is a perimeter player, unlike Bagley. At this point, again, it's being utilized as a center. Which, I mean,

you watch how all the defenses deal with with Hamadu. They just say, sag off. And he's got like 10 feet of space. You know, his, rather there's like 10 feet of space between he and his defender who's just, there's no need to guard him because he knows Hamidu is not going to shoot. He does shoot is going to do a terrible job of it. And, and therefore, is just free to hang out in the interior and make life more difficult in terms of penetration for any other player for the distance. Yeah, this is like kind of, it's just another one of these things where you look at a stat line and it's a lot better than it actually is. Excuse me.

It looks a lot better than it actually is because just having him out there at all as a non-for spacer, you know, who cannot participate in three-point offense, you know, who cannot space the floor for his teammates and whom defenses are free to basically just ignore. But that's a big cost to the offense. And players like that are, you look in the postseason, you won't see a single player like that. I mean, he sees unplayable in the postseason. So again, who knows?

I mean, maybe he gets kind of like an end of bench deal for next season. I doubt it. I doubt, I mean, he's very much in the edge of the rotation right now for this, one of the worst teams in the league. Will he stick around for that sort of role? Who knows, please, Hamadu, learn to shoot. You can be a very effective NBA player, and I love watching you play. Enough for the most part, well, do I love watching you play?

I love watching certain things about you out in the courts. We put it that way. And, you know, Hamadu with a three-point shot. Very solid NBA score. possibly, I would say, a solid starter for a good team. I've said that many times. So the last two off seasons, you know, it would be great if he came back and learned how to shoot.

Either he isn't trying or he just doesn't have the touch or both, not counting on it. And finally, at this point, this is the third season in a row, which are tanking. Do you wins have any positive impact at this stage? Again, we come back to this notion of a winning culture, you know, teams can get better by winning. This team does not have enough talent to win

in any substantive fashion. I know you could say, oh, wins would be good for player development. And losing constantly, obviously, is tough on players. At the same time, I don't think that losing a lot, you know, given a positive environment in other ways, which the business clearly have is actually going to harm these players. And I don't think winning is just going to make a difference in terms of, oh, hey, I'm winning. I'm going to become a, this is going to motivate me to be a better player than I will be otherwise.

I don't think that's a consideration either. Winning culture is a myth. It's a myth that Tom Gores immersed himself in for his. his first, what was it, like, eight and a half seasons with the team where he said, no, we're not rebuilding. All we need to do is start winning, you know, build a winning culture, make the playoffs, and then, you know, we'll become better as a result, you know, just we build that winning culture and we build this momentum. And, you know, and then we're going to become a good team. And that, it doesn't work that way. The Pistons at no point, like, during that period of,

you know, 2011 to halfway through the 2019, 2020 season, at no point that they have even, anything in the same universe of enough talent to actually compete in the NBA. Just not at all. I mean, you need to have a good culture, obviously. You know, you want your players to be happy. You want your players to be motivated. You want everything to be going well in that area. And that's necessary to win a championship.

But the talent has to be there. Absolutely has to be there. This team does not have anywhere near enough talent to actually win a substantive number, a substantive number of games. and the best way for this team to to potentially add talent is through a high selection of the draft. And I know that there's a certain amount

probably of jadedness. I would imagine among some Pistons fans in that, okay, well, we picked first overall two seasons ago. You know, you got Kate Cunningham. You know, you picked number five with, you know, with Jaden Ivy last season. He was a highly tout of prospect. Of course, Kate Cunningham missed the vast majority

of this season. Last season's team, again, just didn't have enough talent either. I mean, there was not enough talent on that team. You know, they did not have enough talent. to win games, you know, to win any significant number of games either, even without the pretty poor injury of injury luck that that roster had too. So yeah, I know it's been tough watching the Pistons for two and two-thirds seasons now. Well, it's been more than that, actually, when you, you know, when you counts the tank portion of the of 2019, 2020. Yeah, it's, I know that

we all want to be rooting for a team, rooting for this team to win, you know, rooting for a team that we want to win in a nightly basis. But at this point, it just, again, we're at, and, you know, two-thirds of the way through another season in which the Pistons are headed for the high lottery. Absolutely not headed for the playoffs, needless to say. And this is just the situation in which it makes sense for them to lose. There's very little, I mean, to think about it, the Pistons could win half of their remaining games, and it's not going to really produce any benefit beyond feel good.

I would, I don't think, I mean, I'd be happy to hear arguments as to why that would actually benefit the team in general, benefit player developments or anything like that. I don't think that that's the case. And it could conceivably hurt the Pistons pretty badly in terms of lottery odds. And this is a, I mean, this draft is largely just super strong in the top two. But, you know, you want to give yourself the best odds that you can. And I mean, that's, that's what makes sense at this point of the season for a team in a position that this Pistons roster is. And also I would like to note just remind anyone or just, excuse me, filling anybody who isn't familiar with the odds system that, yes, it is true that's the highest odds you can get after lottery reform, just thanks to the 76ers, at the first overall pick is 14%. And that's the teams, the teams with the three best lottery odds have the same odds at any of the top four picks lots. However, once you go below, like basically the further down you are, the more you can fall.

If you're the worst team in the league, the worst pick you can get is number five. If you are the second worst, you have a 20% chance of dropping to number six. And if you are the third worst, your chances of dropping to number six or number seven are 33%, and so on and so forth. So sure, your odds at the number one overall pick don't increase, you know, regardless of if you are, you know, number one, number two, number three in terms of draft lottery odds. However, your chances of getting a worse pick, your chances you can drop further, I'll put it that way. So at the end of the day, it is still best to be the 30th best team at the end of the

league if draft odds are your priority. Okay, so that'll be it for this episode, which actually ended up being about twice as long as I anticipated it would be. Either way, it's going to be back in the groove of things. So as always, folks, want to thank you for listening, and I will see you in the next day. So that's it.