Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 141: 2023 Draft Profiles - An In-Depth Look at Amen Thompson

Episode Date: April 19, 2023

This episode, the first in the 2023 Draft series, takes an in-depth look at Amen Thompson. This episode originally contained a now-revised profile on Ausar Thompson; you can find some revised analysis about Ausar in Episode 154. 

What's up, everybody? Actually, adding this note well after production, probably about six weeks afterward. So originally, and this is if you've listened to this episode before, this one had analysis on both Amman and Asar Thompson, decided to remove the Asar portion because I actually recorded another episode. This is episode of 154 about Asar. I had some thoughts change about him and felt like I had been a little bit too hard on him in this episode and just wanted to give another prospectus with more focus on what his positive qualities are. So in case you're wondering where that went and why this episode references both Thompson brothers at the beginning but only talks about Amen. That is why.

And you can find my analysis of a SAR in that newer episode. So without further ado, if you're listening to this episode to learn more about Amen, Thompson, let's get to it. Welcome back. Everybody, you're listening to another episode of Drive Into the Basket. I am Mike your host here today with, you might remember him from last year's draft coverage, my buddy Price. Pleasure to have you on the show.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, absolutely. Well, this is going to be the first episode of draft coverage. So the draft lottery is about a month away. It's on May to 16th. So I believe exactly four weeks away. So, excuse me,

still fighting off an illness here. So today we're going to talk about the Thompson twins. and there's definitely some good, some bad. And I would say the first thing about them that I think just absolutely needs to be said is they played in a Mickey Mouse league, which I really resent, because it just deprived us of a lot of data. Oh, yeah. It's just real quick here.

For those who aren't aware, Overtime Elite is played on a NBA-sized court, but that's about where the similarities begin and end. It's very transition focused. It has weird players that should be in college or high school that aren't. It's very transition focused. It's just incredibly different to watch. Yeah, absolutely. You got to love the team names too.

The City Reaper is the dreamer, Holy Rams, Cold Hearts, and then two pretty typical ones, the Bruins and the Falcons. but it's kind of a joke of the league. And they decided to go there because I can only assume because this was just going to be an easy bat. They felt like they were going to get drafted anyway, pretty high in the draft. And that is turned out, you know, it's going to turn out to be accurate. They're both absolutely going to go in the top 10, barring something catastrophic happening between now and then. But it's basically very difficult to evaluate them, I feel like, because it's a huge step below the N to AA.

It's, of course, a giant step behind the, you know, below the G League ignite. It's like bad data, inflated stats. They were butchering really bad opposition. And yeah, it bugs me. I almost resent them for it. And it's also important to remember they also struggled against really poor competition at times, too. So that's something to kind of be considering while we're talking is that it wasn't always so pretty for them, even though they were clearly the best players on the court.

Yeah, definitely. So it's entirely possible that their flaws will be magnified and their upsides will be less. are certain upsides that I feel will translate. And yeah, let's talk about it. So, Amen, Thompson. He's a guard, one guard shooting guard, six foot seven. He's got a slightly shorter wingspan on his identical twin brother, six foot nine. E2 is a little bit lighter.

He's closer to 200, 20 and a half at the time of the draft. His stats, 16 and a half points, six rebounds, six assists, two point five steals, one block, three turnovers with drastically better shooting splits. 56 and a half, 25, of course, is not quite as good from three point. range and his free throw percentage sucks to 65 and a half but it's true shooting 61 and a half close to a 60% effective field goal percentage i would just rank him as a drastically better prospect than his brother yes yeah and as far as we're talking athleticism with us so i would describe it as very good i would say amen is elite at the NBA level utterly elite in in every regard amen is very close to a one-of-one

athlete at the wing position yeah just in terms of every aspect of his athleticism his first step is fantastic. His leaving ability is amazing. He's got great body control. I mean, there's just nothing not to like about his athleticism. Like everything is better than his brother by substantial margin. You know, I would say the only area in which also comes close is the verticality. But even then, I mean, Amen's ability to elevate, like fast Twitch elevate is really something. Yeah. In a lot of ways, it reminds me of like a bigger, in terms of just athleticism, bigger Jalen Green with the hang time, the body control, the first step, and the lateral quickness is something that's really, really special with him because he's not just good with that like suddenness at the first

step. His second, third, fourth steps are just as like elite. He floats around the court. It's, it's actually really cool to watch him. Yeah, great agility. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. So it provides much the same or more than it does for also really like the rebounding he isn't quite as good i mean he's not as well built as also i feel i feel like he's noticeably thinner yeah but i mean yeah just real quick that's the only uh thing usar has over amen at all right now is the strength component he's he's a little bit bigger you mentioned the wingspan the frame's just a little bit bigger he's more built But otherwise, I mean, Amen is a ridiculous athlete. Yeah, he's just a drastically better prospect, in my opinion.

I mean, he has a similar weakness when it comes to the shooting. We'll talk about that. Yep. So as far as his athleticism, what that enables him to do, I mean, he is a very strong vertical spacer. He is a strong cutter. He can blaze across the floor in transition. Yeah, I mean, it's really something to watch. Even when it comes to attacking the basket, of course, I mean, he can get up the top speed real fast and elevate

real high. Yeah, he reminds me a lot of Jane Ivy in terms of just, oh, yeah, he's going to get paint touches kind of at well at the next level. Yeah, but it's just a lot better verticality than Ivy and also just the body control. Ivy doesn't really have the body control and the verticality. I mean, he's an incredible fast switch athlete, absolutely, probably a little bit better than Amen in terms of his is just for a step and ability to accelerate, but not by much. But just the ability to sky at the rim is really helpful in terms of attacking the basket and just his body control both on the drive and in the air. I feel like it's something else. That that's kind of the real selling point to me. And we'll get into the offense more specifically in a bit. But it's he can sort of open up space

and lanes that other humans are incapable of. And it's going to be awesome to watch when he gets to NBA. Yeah, definitely. I really love his ability to contort his body to contort his body and change his shot in midair at the rim. I mean, that I feel like is really impressive for a guy, you know, really impressive, even by NBA standards for a guy who has, when you couple that with his first step and his leaving ability, like, I don't want to bring Westbrook into the picture because, you know, Westbrook really has his issues. He was one of my favorite players back in like 2016.

Unfortunately, as time went on, I became more and more aware of what a self-centered stat better he is. And then just, you know, the ceiling he inevitably puts on any team for which he is the primary handler. But you look at him, and they're not similar in every way. And Westbrook doesn't really have that sort of body control, but just the ability to sky and spend that much time in the air, and you couple that with his ability to change his shot and get into his body. That's very impressive. Yep. Yeah, I'm trying. I didn't really think of an NBA comp in that respect. Yeah, if you had to think in terms of players who have the ability to do that, who would you think of?

I know I'm putting you on the spot here. The Pistons fan of me wants to say there's a bit of Grant Hill in him. So that's who I go to. And I think of his comp. It's really high end. We're talking like he's one of the better athletes to come out of the draft in a long time. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm just kind of trying and failing to think of anybody comparable to the NBA level who has those characteristics. You know, like maybe you could argue Donovan Mitchell. Maybe. Donovan's nowhere near as good of a, as good of a leaper off the drive as Amman is. And Amon's so big. Yeah. Donovan Mitchell's...

Yeah, Donovan Mitchell's 6-2, I think, by without-shoe standards. Yeah. Yeah. But goodness, I'm just going down. I'm just going down the list here. You know, not Anthony Edwards. Because Anthony Edwards is, I mean, leaving aside his atrocious performance in the plans and the playoffs so far, he might be injured.

I mean, Anthony Edwards can just sky an incredible amount. He's a tank. I mean, he can run right into somebody and is not going to alter his shot at all. So I don't know. Yeah, I'm trying and failing to think of anybody with those characteristics in the NBA. Jalen Green can sky the same way, but the ability to alter his shot in midair. Yeah. So whatever the case, yeah, it's just super impressive.

Yeah. And yeah, he makes him very strong off the drive. He's got great touch at the rim, too. Oh, that's the other thing is that I've been thinking about with him for a while is that it might be almost impossible to guard him when he actually gets underneath the basket because he can contort his body in such unusual ways and get up shots that don't even seem possible or real. So he can be in and amongst the trees, if you will, and somehow that ball, you know, kisses the glass just right and, you know, he sinks the shot.

Yeah. I mean, he's just, he's just great, great touch. Yeah. And his handle is also quite good. good. I mean, it has an impressive handle far better than all those. Oh, oh, it's not even comparable. Yeah. Yeah, and that handle also, you can handle the ball at high speed, too, at very high speed. You know, you couple that with his agility. I mean, his ability to change directions. And it's, it's very impressive, definitely. And he's just also one of those jumbo playmakers that every team

craves. And let's talk about his passing. Yeah. Just, I think it's, he has similar strength as a, like as a connective tissue passer as Asar does, but far, far better on the ball, like creating shots for others. The upside with him being a lead ball handler is real. Yeah. The handles good.

The ability to just penetrate and kick out, I think is going to translate to some level. Obviously, you know, we can talk about the shooting and how that impacts things later. but at least in that isolated situation, he's going to make things easy for guys he's playing with. Yeah, definitely.

Even without a shot, I feel like he's going to draw a significant amount of gravity on the way to the rim just because of his athleticism and his ability to score there. And I feel like he'll be able to take advantage of that to set up teammates. I mean, I don't really have much doubt in that capacity. And overall, it's like, you know, this is obviously like a huge, if and it's almost point with saying this it's like oh he's only a shot away from becoming like a potentially elite player I mean that's that's just we'll talk about a shot

and just a little bit yeah now when it comes to defense I feel like he's not quite as strong as Osar I would say that it's one of those things where I think it right now he isn't quite the defender Osar is but the athletic tools are better and you would think that maybe with a little more strength, he could actually turn into a real defensive weapon on that end. I think the ultimate upside, honestly, is if he could be like a real weak side rim protector as the three or whatever positionless basketball he ends up playing in in the NBA because the verticality, the ability to anticipate where the ball is going to be in the air, that's going to translate.

Get stronger, obviously, so that way he can handle bigger assignments. The hips are really good. So I think there's a lot of foundational skills that make me higher on his defensive potential, although I think Assar is coming in with a higher floor, if that makes sense. Yeah, as a defender, I wonder, I mean,

they are identical twins, but I wonder if they just are, a little bit different in terms of frame because they're not all that different in terms of weight and who knows, I mean, body comp can always be different. But I feel like Osar is just stronger in the core. Yeah. And I also feel like, despite the better athleticism that Aman has,

I think that he's not quite as laterally mobile on defense. And that makes it for him a little bit harder to stick. I mean, his verticality is great for contesting shots and blocking shots, though, without a doubt. Yeah, I think that there is, He's a very unique defensive chess piece. I agree that the lateral ability isn't quite there, but he also plays a lot more on the ball than Asar,

so he might just not have the legs on defense, if you know what I mean. Like Asar has always been kind of more of that secondary guy when they've shared the court together, as they have for a lot of their careers so far. So I don't know. Yeah, his legs just don't seem particularly strong in general when you look at at times at him trying to shoot the ball. Yeah. And I recall, I believe, I don't, I think the friend told me this.

I'm not sure if this quote is accurate, but I think it is. I would imagine so. He's a trustworthy source that that Bonzo said at one point, I mean, when he came into the NBA, when he was a rookie, he was so lacking in strength that his three-point shot was basically like him throwing the ball at the basket. So, yeah, who knows? Maybe it's just, you know, strengthening that lower body. So let's move to the cons on offense. And obviously, number one, he sucks at shooting. Oh, my God.

Yeah. I feel like his form is not quite as ugly as Osars, but it's still quite bad, bad percentage on low volume. Yeah, I think that there's just not a great foundation in any regard, whereas I'm a little less concerned about Assar's upper half with Amman. It's kind of like that it doesn't seem like he's a natural shooter at all. And that comes across in the shooting splits. It doesn't look like something he does or is comfortable with.

He barely takes any threes at all. When he does, he generally doesn't hit them. Yeah. Yeah, I don't feel like the bricks are quite as bad. But yeah, the shot is bad. The lower body is definitely bad. I don't think the upper body is quite as bad, but it's bad. Yeah, it's not pretty at all.

And I think when we talk about upside, if he gets a shot, it's kind of like the whole Janus. If Janus hit a shot, he'd be the best player ever, maybe. Oh, yeah. He'd be in conversation for Goat, thought of doubt. Yeah, yeah. And Amman isn't quite like a Janus level talent, obviously, but Amman with a shot is potential MVP candidate for multiple years. that it would be very, very difficult for him to be guarded. Yeah, it'd be very, I absolutely agree.

I'm not sure if it gets to the point of elite playmaker. That he could be very good. And I guess just he has to do so far to go, you know, as a three-point shooter. And I mean, pull up mid-range. Most guys aren't going to have that. But it's definitely ugly there too, without a doubt. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

And again, just like with Alsar, the free throw percentage sucks. Yeah, which is just another warning sign. They both suck from the free throw line. And just again, even for a player with his athleticism, being unable to shoot is kind of a crippling weakness. Not so much as it is for Asar, but it's going to limit you drastically in terms of your effectiveness. Yeah, in offense, I mean, NBA teams are going to punish that pretty harshly. You sag off, you go under screens and to have a much easier time of still scoring than Osar. But especially if you want him to be an off, good off-all player alongside the other ball handles, you know, alongside any other ball handlers.

I mean, yeah, he's just off-ball right now. He has very little utility beside, you know, beyond, you know, beyond. cutting and catching lobs. Yeah. That's um the that that that you wonder about the translatability of a lot of that when teams you know are just more athletic, more capable of, you know, guarding him one on one. Um, you wonder how much that's going to affect his ability as a passer and ability as a rim pressureer. I know that that's it's going to be there, but you wonder if it's going to ultimately limit his impact. if he has to be such a non-shooter.

Yeah, I agree. I don't feel like he's going to be a sort of John Morant. Jah is a guy who, like, he was shooting decently well on pull-ups at one point last season. Yeah. You know, 2021, 2022. And I was like, okay, this guy's going to be unstoppable because of John Moran. I mean, if you can't sag off of John Morant, then you're finished. Yeah.

I mean, you're finished probably anyway. But, yeah, I don't think there aren't many guys like that in the league. They're very, very few guys like that in the league. league for, you know, and he's not like a terrible three-point shooter, but I don't see Al-Sar being kind of quite that guy. And yeah, so I agree it'll be limited. I mean, it'll be limiting. I don't think it'd be anywhere near as limiting as it will be for a star. But yeah, he's basically just a driver at this point. And you can't really do that at the NBA at the NBA level. Again, unless again, you have a team built around you. And I wouldn't rank him as kind of a Janus. That's pretty rare.

Yeah. But I mean, even Janus, it's just to just a highlight how being a best, that perimeter shooter as a perimeter player can be exploited. Even Janus in the postseason has to have four shooters around him. Right. That's a critical part of the infrastructure built around the bucks right now is that they are loaded with shooters because their primary guy can't space the floor. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

And we've seen it really hurt the bucks in the past, especially when, I mean, there have been times like in 2020, for example, I think in barely 2019 also. So like his supporting cast just died. I'm not sure. I don't remember if Bledso was on a team in 2020. And definitely in 2019. He was a major problem because the fact that he couldn't shoot meant that they had three shooters in the floor. And so Toronto was just really free to throw at least two of those long defenders at him.

And that's what ultimately lost the books of series after they were down to nothing. But with any player, it's like you can't shoot threes. Number one, you can't shoot three. So it's a high percentage form of offense. Number two, you cannot be a play finisher on the perimeter. So you can't participate in that offense. Number three, you can't space the floor. so they just sag off of you.

It makes life more difficult for everybody else. And your utility off the ball is very limited and so on and so forth. It's just a horrible weakness in the NBA these days. Yeah. So just the final con, he's somewhat turnover prone. He doesn't get himself into, I feel like, the same bad situations as a sir. There's just a certain, I feel like, sort of rawness as a decision maker. But I feel like that's something that's correctable.

I feel like that's something he can grow out of. Yeah, I think you want almost at this state. guys to maybe have more turnovers that way they're getting more tape and seeing what works and what doesn't work because the the offensive brain that he has is really good so giving him that sort of exposure putting him in these situations I think is actually going to just help him to just sort of iron out that decision making see how defenses are anticipating where the pass is going to go, how they're going to guard him. I think that there's a lot of potential actually for him to be a very, very good passer. He's not quite a jaw level passer, but with his size, it kind of

puts him in that realm of, okay, there's something here. Yeah. Be nice to see you over, guys. That's a helpful skill. Yeah. Yeah. And as opposed to us, I feel like he's just his ceiling as a passer is high enough that just being a little bit turnover prone is acceptable. There are definitely some very good passers in the NBA who are somewhat turnover prone. Yeah. And if we just move to the cons on defense now, so what do you think about as defensive awareness? Do you have any question marks in that area? Yeah, I definitely

wonder at times if he's kind of like a Bible-esque player where he hedges all the time on the home run. Part of that is definitely over time, Elite is very, very transition oriented, so they probably are coached that way. But yeah, I have some concerns about him being a bit jumpy, if you will. Yeah, I feel like Asara's defensive awareness is very solid. I'm not quite sure that's the case with Amen, because, you know, and that just is going to limit his defensive ceiling. I feel like. I'm not sure if that's something is necessarily correctable.

Yeah, it's one of those things where I think he could be a very good defender. And as I said, the ceiling is very high, obviously. But the downside is that I think he has longer or farther to go to sort of get there. And that's kind of the theme with Amen. Yeah, I just get the feeling with him that it's, I don't think he's going to be a bad defender. But I think that defensive IQ is going to the limit is his defensive ceiling in a way that it won't for Osar. And yeah, but I think he can still be solid, maybe even above average.

And if he can get his offense together, again, it's big if. I mean, you're happy. You're happy with solid. Yeah. So let's talk fit. And Osar, we just, you know, we said he's just going to be a bad fit on any team at this point. And when you're thinking about Amen, I mean, you've got to think about Cade and Ivy. Yeah.

It's, it's tough, you know, because on the one. hand, we really need an athletic wing of any variety who can, who has upside defensively. That seems like a, it's a neat Troy Weaver has talked about in his end-of-season presser. It's pretty obvious, like, what direction we're going to head at the, somewhere in the off-season, be it draft free agency or trade. On the other hand, you wonder he's very, he's going to need the ball a lot in order to be at all a plus on offense and we already have in this situation where he's a potential draft pick we already have two ball handlers and to probably just overall superior offensive weapons in cave in ivy so it's a

little hazy for me at this moment if he's quite the fit um i think he he kind of needs an infrastructure around him and just really, really coached up. Yeah, it's interesting because what's interesting for me, or at least this is how I feel. When it comes to Scoot, I feel almost unhesitatingly that you just take the risk. You just draft him. And if it doesn't work out between the three enemy trade, one of them. I don't have quite that feeling, despite all the positive things I've said about, Amen, I don't have quite the same feeling as I do about that with Scoot.

Hmm. I have similar concerns with Scoot. I think Scoots the superior prospect, and we'll get to that in a second, but in general, I think that the fit is still a little concerning, and you just kind of hope that somehow talent and sharpens talent and that they're going to elevate each other. And if it doesn't work, you trade the worst of the three. Yeah. The scoot's definitely a subject for another episode. So yeah, there's a lot to say about that guy. So let's talk upside. I mean, I think we've already talked about it.

I mean, if he can get it together as a good shooter, particularly a pull-up three-point shooter, then really the sky's the limit. I mean, it could be an absolutely elite talent. Yeah, I'm in, the 99% outcome for him is top five player in the league. with the creativity around the rim, the passing, the athleticism, the ability to be a solid to plus or even high end defender, if the shooting or any kind of mid-range game develops, whatever the case may be, where he can be a threat from multiple levels with his own shot, then you're looking at a guy who is going to routinely be in all-NBA conversation,

all-star games, galore, and potentially MVP talks. Yeah, the upside's really absolutely there. And his floor, I mean, this is where it gets a little bit interesting. So he's good enough off the drive that I feel like he's not going to flunk out of the league if he can't shoot. But, I mean, his upside will be drastically lower. you know, as, and it's like he's a player that teams, I feel like, when I say he won't flunk out of the league, I feel like teams will just continue for a long time to take chances on him.

Like maybe he'll improve his shooting, maybe he'll improve his shooting. And just the upside's so high that teams aren't going to just give up on him after, you know, usually it's about six seasons for players who can't shoot. You know, that's like you just, you get after assuming you played the old rookie contract, you get a year or two after that. But I feel like AMM would be in the league for a long time just because teams, would be like, you know, if we can just get to shooting, then we've got so much here. Yeah, it's, it's kind of the thing where he could be a really solid off-the-bench score

with enough offensive development. Maybe that's like kind of the lower end outcome for him, whereas his brother, the lower end outcome is out of the leak in China, whereas his is like, oh, he's going to be a really fun guy who comes in gets a lot of crazy buckets, you know, sky is the limit with how high he can jump off one foot, two feet, et cetera. Like he's going to be able to put up some highlight real points, but you'd be like, why isn't he a star? Oh, well, look at the, look at the efficiency, look at the numbers. Yeah, probably a guy was coming off the, or it was playing for a bad team because you're going to have difficulty fielding him in the playoffs. Yeah, that's, he could be like a real all star for

like a play-in team. Yeah, perhaps, yeah. Because a guy like that, even if you put four shooters around him, I just don't, I don't think he's at that point if you can't shoot. I mean, they're very, very, very, very, very few guys who are worth constructing an offense around who can't shoot. So, yeah, I feel like, yeah, he'd just be that guy who kind of stuck is just, you know, on a bad team, maybe a be a hookah team.

The defense would have to, I think, really, really climb in a way that's a little more unlikely to see like if you squint you can see it but that's kind of what the trade off with Janus is that you're getting such a two-way two-way threat yeah you can justify building the offense around him whereas with yeah with Amin the defense might not be quite there to the point where you can justify like the two-way potential well with Janice I mean he's so unique as in terms of his touch his size I mean just the combination of everything he puts together. I mean, he's an amazing score, even without being able to shoot. It's just when he gets the playoffs. You got to have the shooters around him. Otherwise,

he's going to have major issues. But the defense, of course, is there too. I mean, he's also one of the greatest interior health defenders of all time. But even on offense, I mean, I feel like there are very, very few players who are worth building around that way. I mean, he's just such an overpowering score even without the ability to shoot. So, yeah. Yeah, I feel like without a shot, yeah, I'd say immense ceiling is probably like decently high usage guy in a bad team. Like, even if his defense really improves, just because the players get punished so much for not being able to shoot,

affirmative players. Yeah, true. Where would he be for you if you had to, if you had to give him a ranking right now? For me, I'm a little lower on him for a lot of the negatives we talked about. So he's in that, like, at the top end for me, he's a five, like fifth overall kind of guy, but really more in that six to seven to eight range is where I'd feel I start feeling really comfortable,

kind of that chain sharp like mystery box lottery ticket type range. Yeah, I'd put him fifth. You know, the, if the Pistons didn't have Kate and Ivy, I'd put him higher. There are just so much, there's so much in the way of questions about his shot that did not exist, obviously with Kate and that weren't, I think for either of us anywhere near as pronounced, but Ivy, I mean, Ivy, it was like, can he be consistent? and with, you know, and with A-Man, it's like, there's a lot. Basically everything is wrong.

Just like with Asar, I mean, your bad shooter, your form is bad, your free throw percentage is bad. Your bricks aren't as bad as Asars, but they're still there. So that really drops him in my books. Also, I'm really liking Cam Whitmore at this point. He's probably whom I'd have had at fourth at this point. Yeah, I'm a big Cam Whitmore. Whitmore fan. There's very different players, obviously.

But I'm more confident that he can be an effective piece of an offense, even if it doesn't revolve around him. Whereas with Amen, he needs to get touches with the ball in order to be at his most effective. Yeah, if you can't shoot, obviously, it's a big problem. Yeah. So in any case, so that is going to be it for this episode. Price, thank you again for coming on to the show.

Draft coverage is going to continue, needless to say. So as always, folks, want to thank you for listening. Catch you in the next episode. Thank you.