Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 143: 2023 Draft Profiles - An In-Depth Look at Scoot Henderson

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

This episode, the third in the 2023 Draft series, takes an in-depth look at the probable #2 pick in the 2023 draft, the electrifying Scoot Henderson from the G-League Ignite. 

Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to another episode of Drive Into the Baskets. I'm Mike joined once again by Price for the third. There's this fourth, yeah, third of the draft series. Price, good to having the show again. Thanks for having me. So today we are talking about Scoot Henderson. So Scoot, presumptive number two pick in this draft. Could be Brandon Miller, who knows. We all know who's going first, of course, is Victor. You're talking about him next week. So just a quick bit of background about Scoop before we get started on the analysis, six-foot. two and I think G-League measures width without shoes, excuse me. So I think that's an actual six-foot-two, which means he's between six-one and six-two,

of course, since they always rounded up. 195 pounds, six-foot-nine wing span, about 19 and a half at the time of the draft. So Price, you and I, when we did, the Thompson twins talked about how obscenely bad of a league over-time elite is. This is the opposite. The G-League is significantly harder than the NBA, excuse me, than the NCAA, definitely not the NBA. Significantly harder than the NCAA.

A, like a lot of your best players in the NBA, excuse me, the NCAA who do not get drafted, it might end up in the G League. The average D1 NCAA player will never sniff the G League. So, Scoot played against pretty hard competition. This was his second season. He reclassified to join the G League Ignite. He was a little past 17 and a half when he first played there. So just a quick run through the stats, 25 games played with 26 minutes per game, 17.5 points,

about five rebounds, six and a half assists, one steel, one-half block, about three and a half turnovers. Forty four point three, 32.475 stats of 55% true shooting, about 47.3% effective field goal percentage. One note about the G League, you can look at his stats and it looks like he only averages, well, basically says the average is 2.9 free throws attempted per game. And the G League, every trip to the free throw line is just one free throw, period. So he actually technically attempted a lot more than that. And the way that they did it also reduces, you're going to reduce his true shooting percentage because you're, you know, attempting less free throws. And finally, 3.3 follows per game. The Ju League is a 10 foul out league as opposed to five,

excuse me, six in the NBA, five in the NCAA. All right. So now that I've talked for a little while, let's talk about pros. Again, when it, you know, when it came to Brandon Miller, I was totally shocked when you said a shooting, you know, as it is, is his chief pro. You know, that was, that was absolutely just floored me. And I don't think it's, like, I have no idea, like, truly no idea what you're going to say here first about scoot. So let's hear it. I'm going to start off with maybe a real hot take, but whole boy is he a heck of an athlete.

Oh, my goodness. I didn't see this coming. I know. Shocking to some, maybe. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's people with eyes. So if you watch Scoot, you'll see just incredible athleticism. He's six foot two, but the fact that he's able to be as high.

high level of player is precisely because of his his dynamicism as an athlete, both amazing first step, explosive leaper, extremely coordinated in all facets of the court. Long arms for his size, which is very, very important. Big hands. Yeah. Yeah. I forget the exact, but they're up there. And just I can't rave enough about his athleticism, especially as like a functional player, which we'll get to in a bit. Yeah, the athleticism is off the charts. I mean, I know we talked about Amen Thompson having great athleticism. I mean, Scoot would be a very special NBA athlete. His first step could be the best in the entire league.

His zero to 60 is insane. Like it barely looks like he, it's like he almost just goes from standing still or just kind of moving at a slow pace to. full speed in about half a second. It's incredible. And when he's running the floor in transition, you'll think that he's going at top speed and then suddenly hits the afterburners and just blazes in. It's just something. It's just really something to behold. He's like very much a fast-switch athlete in every respect. You know, his body control and agility are great. His leaping ability, I kind of feel like he's pretty good off of one foot. If it's just under normal circumstances, if we give him a runway, he's great. It's something that I think is a little underrated. It's his ability

to change speed and direction. He can be blazing toward the basket and stopping a dime. I mean, elite deceleration. Yeah. Now, that's something that we were looking for in Ivy's game that sort of developed over the course of the season. Scoots younger than Ivy and is already like a more just dynamic player with the ball in his hand in terms of that stop-start ability where not only can he explode and he's very sudden like Ivy, but he has that. ability to just pause on a dime and just let the space that his athleticism created actually manifest into an open shot, which is just going to be one of the central ways that he scores in the NBA. Yeah, it's really something, I mean, I'm not comparing him to Harden, though I do see a bit

of James Harden in him, but something I think a lot of people don't know about James Hardin, who's not particularly athletic. He's only elite in one skill, and that's deceleration, and he's off the charts in terms of deceleration. And that's been a big part of his game. And Scoot might not be quite there, but his just his ability to decelerate and then accelerate again. And just to change directions and speeds is really something else. Yeah.

No, I think you can absolutely see elements of Hardin with the ability to sort of work his matchups when he gets into isolation on, particularly guards. It's going to be a thing of beauty to watch, just kind of Scoot's ability to just stop. pivot and then explode into his next look or we'll get to the passing. Just the everything flows out of this amazing athletic toolbox. One thing I do want to hit upon real quick, this draft pretty much top to bottom in terms of

where the Pistons pick is going to end up between one through five loaded with good athletes, good to great to elite athletes. And, you know, Scoot's definitely up there. with Amen and Victor. Yeah, surely you're referring to Jaris Walker, right? No, don't even get me scared. Oh, come on, dude. You don't want somebody who shoots like 40% on drives?

Yeah, give me a break. Anyway, yeah, maybe we'll tell. Hopefully we will not end up talking about Jarus Walker. Because if we have, then something terrible has happened. So, yeah, he's just, yeah, the athleticism is just, yeah, we could talk about the athleticism for 20 minutes. I mean, it's amazing. and his body control and agility, like in addition to just the deceleration.

I mean, just the guys, just you couple that with his speed, his acceleration. And yeah, he's just the whole package, athletically speaking. I mean, Ivy is an increase, it's a very, very explosive athlete. He doesn't quite have that body control or the agility. I mean, those really aren't as strong suits. His strong suits are exploding through lanes, whereas Scoot has, you know, an even better acceleration and is just much better able to work his way through defenses than Ivy is. Though he doesn't only do it with the speed.

But we should mention his strength as well. I mean, he's very, very strong. Oh, yes. Yes. You look at the guy and it's like he's a brick house. This is one of the most built six, two people on the planet. And he's all of 19. Like you're kind of like the Duranesque mold where it's like he's how old?

You know, you kind of have to, you look at him and it's like he is very, very built on top of everything. Yeah. I mean, I think we should go back to the fact that he went into the G League at age 17 and a half. And I talked a bit about the level of competition in the G League. And compare to the NBA, it's a joke. Of course. Any league compared to the NBA is a joke. I mean, the NBA, these guys are inconceivably talented at basketball.

When you compare it to anything else, I mean, the G League is one of the best leagues in the world. And it's a significant step, a very significant step about the NCAA. And he went in there at 17 and a half. Yeah, I mean, the G League Ignite is a very weird program, very new. But nonetheless, they're playing in a very high-level men's league. And Scoot was the youngest player when he stepped onto the court in the G-League. Ever, youngest player ever at this point? Yes, yes.

I, yeah, I believe that is the case. And it was just easy for him pretty much right away. Like this guy is just kind of on another level when it comes to athleticism, but also a lot of basketball skills. Yeah. He's got some wrinkles he has to smooth out, but we'll certainly talk about those. So, yeah, anything else to talk about on the fiscal side of things. I mean, of course, his size is a downside.

I mean, six foot two, the NBA is like, I mean, 10 years ago being six foot two is not really a disadvantage. Today, it is a disadvantage. Yeah, it's an arms race at the NBA level right now where you can't, you want just jumbo players at every position. You want people who are long, strong, bigger, faster, et cetera, just higher and higher levels of overall freakish athleticism at a given size. Like, Cade Cunningham is like, was built. so highly in a large part because he's a giant point guard and, you know, on and on up the lineup, too. Yeah. Yeah, it's tough to be a small guy in the NBA these days. I mean, Chauncey Billups was probably about Scoot Henderson's size, about his height, rather. It just did,

it just looked a little bit different back then because genuinely the average player these days is taller, faster, more athletic, stronger, and size gets exploited in a way that it did 20 years ago. Yep. So, all right, let's move on to talking about his pros on offense. And again, you know, probably the obvious one here is attacking a basket. Yeah. So what do you say?

What more could you really want from a guard as a guy with, you know, freakish ability to change course in the air? really, really smart attacker in the paint. Again, he's fearless, plays super tough against guys bigger than him, of which there are quite a few at the G-League level. And he just isn't ever scared of the moment. That's a mentality thing that really is evident in all parts of his game. But especially when he's climbing up there, it's quite,

quite something i mean guy can hit right hand left hand um counter moves uh great two feet great with the runway as you said um pretty good on one foot not quite amen thompson like one foot um verticality that's that's probably amends like most like separator type athletic tool um scoot isn't quite that level of an athlete, but... Not off of one foot, no. Not off of one foot, but really good. And, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's hard to say enough about his tool set in terms of attacking

the basket. Yeah, tough to stop. Explosive, shifty, agile, strong, bounty, like strong through contact, fearless, clever. I mean, he doesn't only attack with his explosiveness, too. He can really break down defenses like a surgeon using his athletic tools, just in terms of his just ability to position himself. to change those, change directions and speeds.

I mean, of course, if you give him a few feet open, he can blaze through it. But he's very surgical in how he approaches it. He's very smart. Yeah. And then that brings me to the next key point,

which is the passing. Oh, let me do a little bit further on the driving then. I figured you'd have more to say about this. So something, just in terms of his intelligence off the drive, like it even comes down to, like his awareness is great.

He picks his spots well. His shifts where necessary. He also, for example, is just smart about how he shoots. He has good, great touch, of course. But he just, he knows how to position himself. He knows with the defenders around Amari. He shields the ball super well.

He was blocked three times in the restricted area of the season. And of course, the NBA is going to be harder. But, I mean, you get blocked three times in the restricted area on the volume that he did. That's something. And like I said, yeah, the touch, of course, is great too. And, you know, let's just talk a little bit. I know you want to talk about the passing. And this part lays into it.

But just like good luck to the average defender in the NBA and pick and rolls. He's going to draw Mless devils around screens because like the average center is not going to be able to keep up with him and then the passing comes in very much. Yeah. And the reason why is because the passing sets up the driving and the driving sets up the passing. They're two very synergistic skills for scoot. And that also just it's a complete blow you away type passer. Like this guy is going to be an absolute force in the pick and roll. Um, it's, it's going to be awesome to watch. Just the ability to know, like, where the soft parts are on the defense. And he isn't, he's a very willing passer, um, quite creative in his reads. Um, I always felt like that he never put himself or rarely put himself in a bad position. And when people commit to the pass, he can bring it towards the basket. When people guard that, boom, he knows where his outlets are.

And it's going to be so, so tough, even for NBA level defenders to really toy around with him on that. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I mean, he has incredible gravity just because of his athleticism. He has incredible gravity. He'll collapse defenses. And critically, he can, his mind can perceive, you know, and make decisions at the, the speed of his body. A lot of these guys can go real fast, but the mind can't keep up with

just how fast they're going, even at the NBA level. He is able to operate with just very surgical precision as a passer going at like full tilt, like full tilt for him, which is really full tilt, which I think is absolutely worthy of mention. Yeah, I mean, that's going to be the sort of real moneymaker skill for him is that combination of. of how do you stop this guy from cutting us apart? It's, and you see guys with that sort of high level thinking, that's what it takes to be a true number one on-ball creator, you know, conductor of the offense, like a Luca Donchich,

just being able to perceive where weaknesses are and have the skill and the athletic gifts to get, to his spots. And it just so happens for his spots to be high, high scoring areas in a lot of ways, high producing areas. Oh, comparing him to Luca. I mean, that's something. I'm not sure if I'd rank him that highly as a passer.

I wouldn't put him on that level. Really? No one's on that level of a passer as Luca other than Yokic in the modern NBA, at least. I think those are the two forefront guys when it comes. to basketball mine, breaking down defenses. But Scoot has a dimension that those two guys lack, which is his athleticism. And that's going to help open up so many options for him.

Because you're right, a lot of guys can cut through the defense, but they don't necessarily know where to go. And that's the difference for me why, like, Amin Thompson is nowhere, nowhere near the level of prospect. because Amman Thompson can break a defense down with his athleticism, and he's a good passer too, but he gets himself into trouble. And these are against much worse players in a Mickey Mouse course. Yeah, much worse.

We're against legitimate borderline NBA players. Yeah, and I know I've said this already, but I mean, Scoots is a super, super fast player, and his mind can move at the speed of his body. And, yeah, I think he'll be probably nine out of ten passer at the NBA level, you know, eight and a half, nine of a ten. And, yeah, just very good court vision. You know, he can throw these bullet passes out of the pick and roll, just off the drive.

And, yeah, it's definitely something. And I think it's a skill that he'll continue to refine because right now, I mean, it's just a little bit past 19 years old. And just, yeah, the fusion of that passing ability and the athleticism and the touch. And, yeah, it's really something else. And, yeah, I agree, it's one of the things that places him well beyond A. Amen Thompson. I mean, I'd say Scoot's still the better athlete of the two,

but in terms of his basketball thinking he's far ahead of A-man, who's a good passer, but like you said, struggled against really absolutely horrible competition in some ways. So in terms of off-ball, so very strong cutter, basically if you, if he doesn't have the ball and you give him like two steps toward the basket and hit him with a ball, he's exploiting through a lane and nobody's going to find him. It's probably going to end with like a massive two-handed dunk with his head above the rim. Yeah, I mean dynamic off ball mover. Just this guy, when he gets locked in, it's really hard for him to not get open.

And if you're a Pistons fan, you definitely can start liking that type of thing. The guy moves really well. Yeah, I think there's a lot of potential with him as a backdoor cutter and be putting up some nice posters. Yeah, even not necessarily for me, it's not only just as a backdoor cutter. Like, you saw, I feel like a lot in the G-League that he'd give up the ball and then maybe back off a little bit and take two steps forward. And this would happen over the course of like less than a second. And then he'd get hit with a bounce pass and he was on his way through an open lane and that was it. I mean, a lot of defenders in the NBA, especially if you get him switched onto somebody slower,

we're going to have an impossible time keeping up with him off the ball. And, you know, that can generate quite a few opportunities. And the thing is, if you go to help, he's going to find the open man. Like, if somebody actually gets there in time, he's going to find the open man. Yeah. And then transition, of course, he's fantastic, you know, for obvious reasons. The second gear is amazing. Yeah.

Like, he absolutely can keep up with anybody in a foot race. Just it's quite fun. He's a fun player. I don't know. Like, how else to put it, Mike, it's just, it's on offense. there's a ton to love. And any team that gets him is going to be excited. Yeah.

And, you know, I did have some shooting stuff in the pros section here. I'll just go over briefly. Like, I think a shooting potential is good. I think he's not one of these guys who like the Thompsons, for example, who both has bad percentages and bad form. I feel like he's got, he had shot kind of like a mediocre percentage, like 32 and a half percent. I'm low volume.

But I like the form. I like the form on the pull-up. I like the form just on his catch and shoot a little bit less, but I still like it. And you have guys, for example, like Jalen Green, who shot poorly in college, but you'll like his form. It gives you just a better chance of things. And he had some good periods in terms of his ability to just pull off from mid-range and in pretty form. And at times that was a good weapon for him. Yeah, I think that's the shooting form is a really nice compliment to.

everything. It's definitely going to be under the areas of improvement when we talk about shooting in general. But the baseline borderline, or sorry, the building block of his shooting form means that we should have at least some degree of hope that it'll come, that he might not ever be a real high volume guy, but boy, if you give scoot like league average shooting on, you know, pull-ups good luck. Exactly. Yeah, if he pulls the shooting together, I mean, I feel like he's got good pull-up potential. He's got good step-back potential.

Like I could see him, you know, taking the odd step-back three in doing a decent shot at it. And I know we say that, you know, if he can shoot as a big proviso. I've got a lot of faith in scoot in terms of his ability to get it together to at least an average point as a shooter. Again, it'll be something that he'll have to progress at, but the upside with the shooting, is legitimate. The mid-range game in particular, I think, will come first for him. It seems like that's something he's already pretty comfortable with. And now it's just about kind of expanding out to the NBA of three-point line and being better off the catch, being catcher, being, sorry, better off the move on the catch, like movement shooting. If that adds in, then he'll be an

unstoppable offensive weapon. Yeah. Yeah, he's, It's just the potential there is really something. And again, I mean, he shot about 32 and a half percent, which isn't awful. He did do it on low volume, though. So I guess that transitions us into his primary con, which is the shooting. So let's talk about it from the negative side of things. Yeah, just in general, it's not something he's comfortable with. I think that he doesn't show a lot, especially as a catch and shoot guy right now.

It's low volume and not great percentages. And I think it seems like the most lacking part of his game. But also think about it. Like this guy probably grew up with the basketball in his hand. Okay. Like he's been a special player for many years before he entered the G. league. So he might not have quite the same offball knowledge and skill set kind of ready made for the NBA at this point, but he's 19. I just can't think he's going to be a bad shooter the rest of

his career. That's just me, though. Yeah, I've just got faith in his form. I've got faith that he'll get it together. Generally, like I said, if he can shoot, is those are dangerous words, but I've got faith that Scoot can do it. Yeah. But he does need to do some work in his form. He does need to become a viable catch and shoot guy unless he's going to be kind of like just a very heliocentric dude, which I guess is conceivably possible. But even then, you want to be a heliocentric guy. You still have to be able to shoot. So that's kind of what I just said doesn't necessarily hold any water. Like Luca, for example, shoots an incredible volume of pull-up threes. That's an integral part of his skill set. Of course, he's not the athlete that Scoot is, but there's not really anybody at the NBA

level who's just going to be able to get by with just attacking. I mean, it's just too easily punished. So that's got to come along. And off ball utility is going to come along. He's got the cuts, but he's also got to be able to shoot. As we've seen as Pistons fans over the last too long, guards that can't shoot tend not to really work out in the NBA these days. Guards and wings in general who can't shoot. It's just they can't really seem to hang in not just a starting role, but even in a rotation, it's just very, very hard to play them unless they have a truly unique skill set. And it's the type of thing where they, if they, if it doesn't come, it's going to severely limit their ability to impact the modern game with how spaced out everything is.

Yeah, absolutely. While it's good, because it opens lanes to the basket, with how spaced out the NBA is. Also, they're not going to be people who are going to be, you know, primarily down in the paint, you know, doing big things either. So they need to be able to shoot and stretch the floor and actually be someone the defense has to account for on the perimeter. Because if you can just, defenses are perfectly willing to let a bad shooter take shots. Oh, yeah.

That is a battle. They are more than willing to fight. So it will limit his kind of overall gravity if that doesn't come. But man, I think it's going to happen. Yeah, I think it's going to happen too. Yeah, I mean, even for a guy like scoot, even with his athleticism ability to attack the basket and his passing, even the fusion of those two if he can't shoot. I mean, it hurts.

Yeah, like you said, defense is a sag off of you. You cannot participate in finishing plays from the perimeter. You can't space the floor. Life is more difficult for everybody else on your team. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's, it's too painful, you know, basically almost no matter who you are. Like we saw Janus, like basically, Janus, of course, needs to be surrounded by, by four shooters.

And he was playing injured against the heat, but we also just saw his limitations in the half court. You know, it's just even for a guy like Janus being unable to shoot is a big problem. So, yeah, he's got to get that together and just more offball utility in general. Yeah. So, but I feel like he sees so much further along than the likes of like Amman. Thompson in terms of his shooting, just in terms of form and upside. I think he's just much higher. Agreed.

All right. Let's move on to defense. So let's say on defense, of course, the athleticism helps. Great lateral movement, great at sticking. And he's strong. And he's long. And he's long. Yeah.

You know, he's got good anticipation in terms of playing passing lanes. It can easily explode into them. He's got good hands in general as far as stripping the ball goes. Can occasionally fly in for a block. you know, when he's engaged, he's just a pretty strong point of attack defender. Yeah, I mean, he has a lot of quote unquote dog in him. So he, as long as he tries with his athletic tools, then he'll be able to guard other guards at a very high level and be pretty good. As you said, on the point of attack, it'll be a real strength for him, to be honest.

It's just there's other limitations that come with his size that we'll get into. Yeah, I mean, I don't have anything else to say about his pros on defense. I think he'll be a fairly strong point of attack guy. I don't think he's necessarily going to be an above-average defender. I think probably average is what he'll top off at, which is going to be fine. But, of course, you go to his cons in size. And size is not something that can be fixed. Yeah, it doesn't.

It seems like he matured early too. So I don't think we're going to get any sort of like late, like adding an extra inch onto him or anything. I think what you see is pretty much what you're going to get. And it's just he he'll try his best, but again, being six foot two in the NBA is just these days a recipe to get cooked. And it'll happen, switched on to bigger wings. They'll probably be able to have their way with him.

Can't really guard up at all. but the fact that he won't be eminently huntable, like he'll actually have some positive matchups on defense, I think is a huge, huge burden off of the team that's acquiring him because as we see with Trey, Trey can be a real force on offense in all these different ways, but when it comes to playoffs and matchups become all important,

he's a massive liability. Oh, he's miserable garbage. I mean, his defensive IQ is bad, but, you know, in addition to his size being awful. Yep. I mean, he's just easily bullied by everybody. So is John Morant. He's just easily bullied by anybody.

And absolutely not switchable in any respect. But, yeah, man, Trey is butter on defense. So Scoot, at least, I totally agree with what you said. Yeah, Scoot will have some positive matchups. He's strong, which will serve him to a degree. You know, to like a small degree. He'll have that, which Moran's. and Trey Young do not in terms of just, it'll be a tool against bigger players.

It's not going to win the battle, but it's better than, you know, being small and weighing like 180 pounds. Right. Those guys are, you know, a lot of the comparables that you'll probably see, but that's sort of a difference level with Scoot where scoot isn't going to be muscled off the point of attack as easily. And that can like just influence things enough. where if you have a coherent defense built around him,

then you'll actually probably get better results, I'd imagine at least, unless Scoot completely just loses all of his motivation or drive to defend, which we've seen happen, I suppose. But for me, that's more of a between the ears thing, and we don't get access to players like that as a people in the fan world. Do you know how long Trey Young's wingspan is? I mean, it might be shorter than mine.

I don't know. Six foot two. I mean, he's basically got crocodile arms into, you know, as well as being dumb on defense. Okay. But I don't need to be that, I don't be that caustic about it. He has bad defensive IQ. He weighs like 175 pounds. He came into the league weighing 165.

You know, and he's got a very, very poor wing span. Jha least is around 6'7, but that's not going to save Jha. I mean, he's still, again, weighs like 175 pounds. and yada yada yada so yeah i agree i agree scoots not going to struggle anywhere near that much i wasn't being hyperbolic i i actually have a six foot three and a half almost six foot four wingspan so nice yeah yeah again i'm way shorter than tray but i got long arms it it's that's actually kind of ridiculous that that tray is shorter wing wingspan than i do hey man you also have no mb a miles on your body it might not be over for you that's true that's yeah

Do you have any college eligibility left? You know what? I'm entering the transfer portal, getting my NIL money as we speak. Awesome. Sweet. I'm glad to hear it. All right. So, yeah, I think also I have like a little bit in a way of concerns about his defensive IQ,

Ike, to occasionally flung quotations or make mistakes. It's difficult. I mean, it's not ruinously bad. And, you know, as is often the case in the situation, it's difficult to know with somebody who is just kind of like below average rather than add. absolutely horrible, whether that it's just a matter of seasoning. I mean, I think he's going to come into the league as a better defender than Ivy. So, you know, low bar.

Yeah. Yeah, Ivy did a lot of things well, particularly in the second half of the season. But defense, there were no lack of trying on his part was still a struggle. So, yeah. All right. Yeah, anything else on the defensive end you can think of? I mean, he'll probably get a surprising number of highlight real dunk, or not. dunks up blocks just due to general athletic tools for a guy who's six foot two,

you'd be like, Scoot Henderson block that. But it won't be like a real major thing. But you'll see it, I think, from time to time in a way that'll be part of his highlight package. Yeah. And also probably a fair number of steals as well. He haunts those pretty well without gambling. I'm just for memory. Do you remember when Nate Robinson was probably like five eights without shoes, I think?

You remember when he blocked Yao Ming? Anything's possible. No, he did. It did happen. I was thinking about Nate Robinson when we were talking about size being a disadvantage on defense. And by the time, like the 2014-2015 season rolled around, I mean, the jig was up on players that short. I mean, Nate Robinson was sixth man of the year at one point. He was defensive liability.

I'm quite certain even back then. But I remember, like at that point he was only getting like 10-day contract. but he was, I think, playing for the clippers. I can't remember whom, and they went up against the Warriors. And Sean Livingston made a living and posting up smaller guards. And he posted up Nate Robinson and have like nine inches on him. I was like, oh, goodness, I feel bad for this guy. He has no chance.

And he had no chance. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Yeah, of course, 5.8 and 6'2 are two very different things. All right, so what do you see as his floor? Like, let's assume that he doesn't get his shooting together. Guys are able to just go under screens on him and or sag off. on him. Maybe like a version of like Tyler Hero like a six man of the year type candidate where

really with no shooting. I mean but with the athleticism in passing it'll I think he'll still put up points on against bench units. Hmm yeah I'm not so confident in that I think just if you can't get it together as a shooter I think it's just going to hurt too badly I think he would just be one of those guys who might be a decent backup point guard but it's going to be tough to play in the postseason like Harrow Wiesce is an elite shooter. Like if you're an elite shooter, you're always going to eat in the NBA. But if you're a horrible shooter, I think it can easily flunk you out, even if you've got his upsides.

I think that he'd be one of those guys that teams would take chances on again and again and again and he'd stay in the league a long time. Oh, yeah. And the other thing, too, is that I don't even know if he's going to be a horrible shooter. Just I don't know if it'll ever, I don't know if in the worst case, I still think that he'll be an okay shooter. It's just that he won't be able to be a conductor of the offense without it. Yeah, he'll struggle in that capacity.

Yeah, I think I'd see as floor is kind of like low 30s as a shooter. Yeah, like 31, 32. Yeah, and if it's like 31, 32 on like a really heavy diet of pull-ups, then that's, you know, then that's one thing. Though, of course, you don't want to be taking those pull-ups if you're shooting that badly. you know if he's a guy who whose percentage is that low because of the difficulty of his shots and he can hit those catch and shoots at a decent level then then that's fine right yeah it's a balancing act at that point but i'm saying like even as like a catch and shoot guy he doesn't get above 31 32 percent then there's no way he's starting yeah it would make it difficult definitely so on a bad team he'll he'll be able to start but i'm saying i'm like a good team yeah it's yeah you just i remember the last time we saw that somebody come into the league with this fusion of athleticism, you know, IQ passing ability. So it's kind of hard to puzzle it out as far as what it would look like if he couldn't

shoot. But it would definitely lower his ceiling very dramatically, pretty much as it does for any perimeter player who can't shoot. Yeah. Yeah. Now ceiling. You know, I feel like, I know you're going to say it could be an MVP caliber player if he can shoot well. And I could agree with that. I mean, there's a ton of like a more athletic harden, smaller, more athletic Hardin in his game. I think a more dynamic John Morant. There's like the upside with the scoot

on the 99 percentile outcome is just just amazing. You take that guy and you build around him and can completely transform your franchise. Yeah, for sure. I agree. Yeah, I see

a lot of Hardin in his game just in the IQ and the ability to parlay his athletic gifts. And again, Hardin's only real athletic gift was just absolutely elite ability to decelerate. And, you know, so of course they're very different in that respect. And I'd be shocked if Scoop became as good of a shooter as Hardin, who was just obscenely good. And but like a more athletic, less sweet shooting version of Hardin.

I mean, yeah, I wouldn't put it out of the question for him to get there. And like when we talked about Amen Thompson, I mean, you said that you feel that if he gets gets a shot together, he could become like an MVP caliber player. Do you feel like Scoot has the higher ceiling even there despite the difference in size? You know, I think that the, I would say so because there's just more of a demonstrable basketball intel, like brain there intellect-wise, that he just processes the game in such a, as you said, surgical way, very, very anticipatory while at the same time ability to adapt and change plans when new information is presented to him, it's, I think he'll be able to better utilize whatever offensive athletic gifts he does have

than A. Manuel, even at like their top, top end outcomes. Yeah, I agree. That Scoot is, I believe, just extremely well positioned to fully capitalize upon his athleticism in a way that very few players are. So here's another question. And this one will loom large if the pistons pick number two. It could almost be a little bit stressful if they end up with number two. And that is the fit with the pistons.

And that could determine if they go with Brandon Miller, over scoot, for example. So the fit, of course, the pistons have Cade who projects as a very high volume handler. You know, very smart. I think it'll be a three-level score, you know, can see two steps ahead. and he's a good passer. And then Ivy, who of course, I'd say for Jackson is a secondary ball handle or a guy who spends a decent amount of time on the ball as well. And then you and Jack Scoot in there.

Yeah, I think, you know, it's the fit isn't necessarily that clean right now with what we think Cade and what we think Ivy are and are going to become. But, you know, on a certain level, I think he'd be a really good. or Ivy or even Kate, I guess, would be a really good backup in the in the worst case. So, you know, I think for the immediate fit, you just take it and see what happens. But it's it's the type of thing where if they really like Brandon Miller, I could see them trying to move back in a very strong way. Yeah, I think that if you pick Scoot, you do so with the knowledge that your life. going to move on from one of the other guys, you know, from from Cade or from Ivy that they will

just be, you know, you'll say, okay, good problem to have. Hopefully they all pan out and I'll trade one of them for a big package. Yeah. And hopefully you trade, trade the right one and it's not like a James Hardin situation. You trade him and becomes an MVP. Well, you trade him because your ownership is incredibly cheap and since you ended up, you know, signing Kendrick Perkins to a contract that was too large. What's funny back then is that they almost had Tyson Chammer instead of Kendrick Perkins. And it would cost West. You imagine like a long-term core of Harden, Westbrook, Durant, and Tyson-Jamler. And that's a team that probably wins like multiple, like two or three championships, because Tyson-Chamler was like an overpowering defensive player back then. So in any case,

yeah, so, yeah, of course you hope you trade the right one. I would have concerns in terms of his fit with both players with Cade. I mean, a scoot is a guy who's going to operate a lot on the ball because that's where his strengths are. Cade is a guy who operates a lot on the ball. And then when it comes to Ivy, I'd have less concerns about the fit. I mean, the defense would be a problem. You've got a really undersized scoot. And then Ivy, who's not really all that big himself and also kind of like has just just has defensive issues.

But it just in terms of awareness and decision making, hopefully it works them out. But it was concerning this year. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the tradeoff right where Ivy at the very least looks like a pretty safe bet to be in that secondary mold as a as a ball handler and he's shown that he's very capable at it which is a very positive sign for him but yeah i don't think his game is as predicated around it as as kate or scoots is whereas the defense is going to be really really bad if scoot and ivy are bad back court um yeah that's like what we long term go

for it's going to be it's going to be bad just i mean they're both athletic which is good but and they both try but man that's that's that's asking for you know trouble yeah it would be ugly i think that the offensive fit between scoot and ivy would be the better than the offensive fit between scoot and and kate both of whom just really depend upon being on ball whereas yeah like we said i mean ivey i was very encouraged this year by his off ball play and uh and and i and i think think that I don't really have it nearly as much in terms of concerns about his fit with Cade. But Scoot and Cade, both guys who are best on the bowl, where it's kind of like a waste

to play them too much off the ball. I just don't see the fit there at all. I think it's the type of thing where do you get into the calculus of, okay, we like the fit with Cade and Ivy, and do we like Brandon Miller with an extra asset to trade up rather than having to solve the problem of the Cade Ivy Scoot dynamic? that we would find ourselves in. So I don't know because that requires another team to be involved. And now you're getting into a completely separate conversation.

But I think that's a conversation that we would have to have as fans within the organization. Just Brandon Miller's the cleaner fit. He has the cleaner fit. And the idea is, I mean, I don't subscribe to this notion, which I consider just incredibly oversimplified that you just let the time. talent works itself out. I don't subscribe to that at all. I mean, fit is always going to be a consideration in value. So, yeah, and I just feel like it would be hard on offense to get, I mean, it'd be one of these situations where it's like, you know, one plus one equals one and a half,

you know, with, you know, one and two thirds with, and that's still a lot of talent. But I kind of feel like it'd be like this one plus one equals one and a half with Cade and with Caden scut on offense. And then, of course, Cade and Ivy would have a better fit, but on defense, it would probably be a mess. And yeah, what do you, so I've seen this idea brought up. It's like, okay, well, just play the three and him together and move Cade to small forward. How would you feel about that? I think that would have to do be neutering Cade's overall impact a lot because he is definitely a guy who can play within a lot of different offensive schemes. And I think that gets misconstrued for this idea that he is scheme agnostic and that he doesn't need to be built around. Instead,

I think in order to maximize Cade, you need to let him be able to make decisions on ball. And we only have seen little hints of it given the roster or his injury status, but we were really starting to see him cook in the early part of this past season. And that's with still a pretty diminished roster relative to the rest of the NBA. And personally, I'm more interested in seeing what Cade can do than what Scoot can do, but I'm also a homer, so take that for what it's worth. Yeah, I think that Cade, I'm confident he'll come back with a much improved three-point shot. I mean, the guy in college was a 40% three-point shooter on a very difficult shot diet. So I don't buy that that has just completely deserted him.

And so I think he'll be a true three-level score. I mean, he's bulked up, which I think he's going to help. I think he'll get to the line a lot more. He's a very, very smart player. Very, very smart player. And I think just that that three-pointer is there, and I think it will be. And I think it'll be a good pull-up shooter. He's going to be a tough cover.

I think you could easily, I think you could be a top 30 player in the NBA of the season, in the upcoming season. It will basically be his second season. Right. Yeah. And if you play the three of these together, it's not so simple as, oh, well, just move K to small forward and we'll just play the three of them together because there's a question of synergy.

Like, how well, they actually going to be able to be able to play together. The idea is to get it at least as much as the sum of your parts. These guys will be less than the sum of their parts. And you're looking at development risk too and just being able to share the ball. So, but even beyond that, it's like, it's like, it's like, you can't just match players like that together like that and just say, okay, it'll be fine. We'll just move a guy to a different position. Right. And again, Kade is primarily a on-ball player. So is he the point forward or the point guard that that's kind of irrelevant to me. He is that that jumbo ball handler with elite processing ability and tremendous basketball IQ that you need to see

handle the rock and you need to see it in a cohesive system and I really question what that would look like with two guys and even a third who need touches to really highlight their strengths and it's it'd be fine it'd be one thing. if these are all finished products and you're the Phoenix Suns and you can just stick Katie, Booker, and Chris Paul and whoever else out there. But these are young dudes still figuring it out. So I don't know if that's the kind of experiment we really need to run. But on a talent level perspective, Scoot is to me the superior prospect to Brandon Miller.

Yeah. Well, speaking of the Suns, I mean, speaking as somebody who watched this offense in person last night, not that that gives me any additional insights that I'm on person rather than on TV. It was ugly. I mean, these are just a bunch of players who want to go in and just create a two-point shot. And it's not an offense that flows particularly well. It doesn't help that Aden was absolutely horrible. And it looks even worse in person, if that's possible.

But even then I would be concerned about it, you know, even if they were a finished product. And that's the kind of situation where it's like, okay, you've got one of these two guys who were just excellent on the ball. Trade them, you know, trade him for a better prospect. you know, for a good package for a guy who fits better because you want to, you want to be able to get the most out of each of your individual guys. And I think it's worth mentioning with Cade that he's a guy who has all these strengths, but is also a leader. You know, if you want, you know, your best guy in the court to also be the leader of your team.

Yeah. And that's, that's an asset that I believe is underrated. I think that you're, you're incredibly salient to point that out because it's, Cade doesn't just sort of set the tone on the court. He's a complete culture setter. And he's totally transformed, I think, the overall feel of the Pistons. And I don't think Scoot would have a problem meshing with that, so to speak. But Cade has that extra sort of it factor that you really, I think, would struggle to replace if he was gone.

Yeah. And I think it would be difficult for the two of them to make it work just based on what each of them provides. I mean, it's about getting maximum value for a player. And in that situation, you know, if you have both of them at their peak, it's like, well, you know, you want to get maximum value. Maybe that comes of moving one of them. And I suspect, you know, it would be so hard to move on from Cade, you know, a few years from now, it would be so sad. But, you know, if you want to get maximum value, I mean, maximum value may be moving, you know, moving in for another player at a different position. position, moving scoot, for example, whenever player at a different position, who will provide

more value, more like actual value to your team. It's not about, like, everything, like literally everything in basketball is subordinated to the amount of value any given player is going to provide to your team in particular. Yeah. And obviously, team context changes all the time, but you could also just make the argument, hey, if you get two, then see it as a blessing. You get the opportunity to trade back and get a guy who is also really good and also a much cleaner basketball fit. Who's got really good upside too. I mean, we went over Brandon Miller last week. This isn't going to be a consolation prize if we end up with Miller in this draft. I would feel ecstatic to get Miller quite honestly. So it's not, it's two good options. But, you know,

It's a tough decision to make because Scoot's such a talented player. Yeah. So where would he be? If you had to make a decision right now, if the Passen's right number two, then it was trade down and get something and take Brandon Miller or take Scoot, what would you do? Gun to my head, I trade down, but, you know, that's just because I really like Miller. Yeah. I really really like Miller.

Yeah, assuming it wasn't a deliberate accessory to murdering somebody. Yeah, right. I mean, I do not know the character context, right? That's a huge, huge aspect that we don't get on the public side, right? That we don't know how these people are as employees, as people. Yeah. We know that Troy Weaver is going to do his due diligence, of course, in terms of if he is a character fit and not an accessory to murder.

Yeah. For my part, I would find it very difficult to pass on Scoot, regardless of everything that I've just said, there is something in my head that's like, you don't pass on this guy. You know, you take him and you figure things out down the line, and that probably means trading somebody. Even despite everything I've just said, it's like, it's like, I'm not sure if I just think that highly of Brandon Miller. Do we think he's going to be kind of like a Middleton sort of guy? It would just be real hard for me to pass on scoot. It would just be hard because just something inside of me is like, don't pass on

this guy, you know, regardless of any other factor. And I can completely understand. why anyone would have that position because quite honestly scoot is a special talent and that's what makes this draft class so unique is that there's two special talents that could very conceivably go number one in nearly every draft scoot's more of a more quote unquote mortal number one overall pick but he would absolutely be in consideration in tons of years for number one Oh, yeah. How good would Brandon Miller have to be? Like, if you could look in a crystal ball and say, okay, I know that Brandon Miller is going to be at least this good. Like in terms of an NBA comp, how good would he have to be in that situation for you to take him over Scoot? Yeah. You know, if you could tell me that we would be getting a decade of a version of Chris Middleton to pair with Caden Ivy, I think I would take that. pretty confidently no matter how no matter how good scoot turns out because that would be a

tremendous tremendous fit with kaden ivy it's exactly what we need and that i see that within miller and that's kind of a gamble i'd be willing to take but i understand like scoots special talent and you don't pass on talent yeah we can talk about value but talent its value. Yeah. Oh, I don't know. I go back to that talent creates value, but, but the value of any player to any given team is going to be different.

True. Is how I feel about it. Yeah. It's, I don't remember how I used to put it. But it's like, yeah, when it comes to like best available, best player available, that's just a term that I've never liked because best player available is going to be different for any given team because, you know, it all just comes down to the value. you that a player is providing to your team in particular. But yeah, as far as for me for that

question, you know, like peak Middleton, you know, maybe maybe that gets you there. I had it in my head because it's probably because I watched Booker play yesterday. It's like, can Miller be kind of like jumbo booker? I'm quite certain the answer is no. But yeah, I mean, very few people, if any, are Booker levels like scores, but it's unique in terms of what he does. Yeah, it's very unique player and but if you get a version i mean if you tell me that he's a a jumbo booker-esque score then whoa i'm i'm taking him too yeah that then i would make perfect sense but yeah i don't i don't think we've seen anything that substantiates the notion that yeah not quite yeah so all right any closing thoughts um you know i i i want scoot but i'm scared

Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. I mean, what I keep coming back to is the pistons can easily avoid having to make this choice by just picking number one instead. I mean, it's that simple. Right. Like, yeah, I mean, that's all it takes. I mean, all you have to do is just get good and pick number one. Right, right.

Yeah. Just do it. You know, just do it. Make your dreams come true. Yep. Just pick number one. Yeah, just do it. Yeah.

In any case. Entirely different conversation. Yeah, I feel like, like, obviously it's like great if the Pistons get number two, you know, that's a good outcome. However, it's going to make for a slightly stressful month or five weeks until the draft if that happens. Yeah. You know, that's five. Two and five are the only outcomes I'm sweating. I feel very, I feel very confident at what would happen at one, three or four.

What would be number four for you? I mean, you're getting probably Cam Whitmore. And that's another guy I'd be pretty excited for. Interesting. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Well, we are only, as this episode, when we're recording it right now, in about two weeks,

actually exactly two weeks from now, it's a watery night. And we'll be about four hours past seeing where the Pistons are going to pick. So it's definitely coming up. So, yeah, next week's going to be Victor. So Price will be back with us again. Of course, Price was a pleasure having you on the show. Yep. Thank you. And as always,

want to thank you folks for listening. Catch you in the next episode.