Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 16: Drafting for the Pistons: James Wiseman, Onyeka Okongwu, and Obi Toppin, plus Christian Wood and the future of bigs

Episode Date: August 6, 2020

This episode, the first of a three-part series on potential draftees for the Pistons in October, profiles James Wiseman, Onyeko Okongwu, and Obi Toppin while also discussing Christian Wood and the evolution of the modern center.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Driving to the Basket. My name is Mike. I'm here with Tommy. And as promised, this is going to be the first of our series on potential draft picks for the Pistons. So obviously, the draft lottery is still, I believe, about a month away. So we're not going to know where the Pistons will pick for some time. Of course, that will inform whom they will have really the opportunity to pick. So we're just going to go through really the full list of the players in whom the Pistons, you know, conceivably have interest. So today, we're going to go over what is probably, I think,

in the opinions of both of us, the least important category. This is we both feel these are, these are the players at the positions of which the pissons are least likely to select players, which is center and power forward. Now, Tommy is between the two of us, certainly the undisputed draft experts. I do my research, certainly. He takes it to another level. So I'm going to to hand it straight off to him. Yeah, I appreciate that. I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I've definitely gotten a lot more excited about the draft, especially now that the Pistons have higher picks.

Even before the season was even close to shut down, I was getting a lot more into it. I'm very excited that the Pistons are finally in a position where they have a pretty good chance of moving up. And even though today we're going to be talking about Biggs and this isn't the best class for Biggs, or rather it's a much better class for guards and wings. There are definitely some guys worth talking about. And let's get kind of right into it, because there's more to what makes a good big man than just their individual skills. There's a lot more to it than that. You need to consider the way that the game is changing. And we see a variety

of guys who are kind of stepping outside the norm of their position. We see guys like Yokic who are who's slow, but he's still a big man who's shooting really well and he's handling the ball. And that's really great. And guys like that who are kind of shifting positions and changing what their position can be is really exciting. So these changes, I think, they're for the best. And one of those changes is pace. And the Pistons Championship teams of the past have slowed down the game with their defense. And they've dictated a slower to slower the game.

book. And the third slowest pace in league history belongs to the 04 team where they average about 88 possessions per game. And to try and win like that now is it's just not a good idea. There are a lot of things that the Pistons need to try to do and to emulate to get better. And this rebuild gives them a prime opportunity to build a team that can work together to create an identity that's more in tune with the modern NBA. And this unfortunately to some people means that defense is not priority A anymore. It just can't be if you want to win. The 2019 Raptors were a good defensive team, and I'm not saying that it's not important to play defense. It absolutely is, but it's very difficult to rationalize bringing in guys

who specialize in defense without being a plus offensive player. It's a lot easier to hide a bad defensive player like the Warriors do with Curry than it is to hide a bad offensive player. And there's a lot of defensive presence to be gained by picking your spots in a way that limits driving lanes or limits three-point attempts like the pistons have traditionally done. Now that they don't have drummond, their strategy of overcommitting to the three-point line and trying to force guys inside to take the uncommon two. It might not be the best option anymore. Although I think Christian would, does pick his spots nicely, if the pistons can keep him, that'll be a real challenge for him. and he may gain a reputation as a bad rim protector. Mike, did you have something you wanted to add there?

Yeah, I would just say in terms of what you're talking about right at the beginning here, definitely the role of the center has changed a great deal, even in the last five years. But certainly when you look back to the 90s, for example, that was an era of dominant centers, like guys who were really amongst the superstars and could really dictate the flow of the game. Robinson, Olajuwon, Shaq, and so on and so forth.

And that's just a lot more difficult these days for centers to, I mean, it's like you said, the decline of defense, the changes in defense, like the changes, these were a large way due to the pistons and maybe the spurs as well, the hand-checking changes in 2005 that made defense considerably more difficult. But just the game has changed to the point where centers have become kind of second-class citizens, so to speak, just not second class citizens, but the position is the least important. And you don't really have those superstar centers anymore because if you want to be a superstar, you've really got to be able to create your own offense and to really be an offensive superstar.

And I'd say of all the centers in the league, really, only Yokic can do that. And that's because he's a great passer as well. But I totally agree that it's very, very difficult now to be a dominant defensive presence. It's helpful, but you don't really see many guys or really any guys in the league that I think of who are, except for Anthony Davis, who's kind of a power forward center and is masquerading as power forward right now. But guys who can really stretch the floor, defend the rim, and then just be offensive superstars while doing both of those things. So anyway, that's all I wanted to say. Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of it does come down to defensive scheme. So like the Pissons,

they do successfully limit opponents' three-point attempts. They were second in the league in opponent's three-point attempts, but they were 19th in opponent three-point percentage. And then the Raptors, on the other hand, they were 29th in three-point attempts, so their opponents take a lot of threes, but they were number one in keeping their opponent's three-point percentage down.

So they only allowed their opponents to shoot 33.7% from distance, and then the pistons let their opponents shoot an average of 36.1%. So the Raptors, Even though they lost Kauai Leonard and free agency, their defense still remains really good. And that's thanks to guys like Nick Nurse. And Seacum has definitely stepped it up.

But his system of positioning players inside to cut off driving lanes. And then what they would do is they would have really hard closeouts to the three point line. And they would try to bother but not stop the shot. And it's worked for them. The Raptors are still a very good defensive team. And they have a lot of championship level players left. but their system makes sense. And they're very good at recovering and resetting defensive assignments,

whereas the Pistons will have to learn to do that. And that's going to come from experience and chemistry. The other thing that the Raptors did was play zone defense on the strong side, so they could position an extra defender near the lane who could also jump back and contest the kickout. It works really well. The Pistons defensive scheme wasn't bad, but they didn't have the best players.

So their offense and defense was just kind of middle lane. And my point here is that it's just not a good idea to sign defense-only players who can't space. And I think, you know, you see people talk not so much about bigs because this is honestly a pretty weak draft for big men. But there are guys like Isaac Okoro who, when we get to that player type, maybe we'll kind of mention why he's not the best option. but those guys, I don't think they can really bring you too much because even though they have value as defenders, they're going to be negatives. Did you want to add to that? Yeah, I would say for the most part, I completely agree with what you're saying. I mean, just offense is king, and shooting is now the most essential skill in the NBA because having four shooters in the floor is more or less necessary.

And West year the Durant-era warriors, excuse me, Durant-era warriors when you just have so much talents. If you ever have so much talent, like an enormous amount of talent, you can buck them all, of course, and things will work for you. But if you don't, I mean, you got to feel at least four shooters in order to get proper spacing. You have to have that spacing in order to have, you know, the necessary efficiency and pace. So it's just you have to have it in order to properly break down defenses and take the number of three-pointers you need. Having five is fantastic. It just offers you so much more in the way of options. You lose even one shooter.

That comes with a very big opportunity cost, and, you know, he's great at defense isn't enough. You look at, I mean, the 76ers played at Thuyball a lot, and he's a guy who can defend four positions. But the Sixers are a spacing mess to begin with. I want to really use them as an example. But any guy on the floor who can't shoot, yeah, just the opportunity cost is very high because it costs your offense, potentially cost your offense a lot. like Rudy Gobert is a great defender, but the jazz, despite being a top five team in efficiency by true shooting, score that in the 17th most points per games because he slows down pace so much. But, and rather, like a guy like Andre Roberson, who was just a complete offensive

minus and was a liability even playing next to Westbrook and Durant. You know, now he probably would not see very many minutes if you were to come back. You definitely wouldn't be starter because you just you can't make that sacrifice anymore. Yeah. So you're absolutely right. Traditional slower bigs have had to adjust or they've been kind of forced out of the league. I mean, we saw this with Roy Hibbert and more recently Tristan Thompson.

So it's because the question is, how does Roy Hibbert, a top defensive player around the rim, end up out of the league by 30 years old? And there's more than one answer to that, but part of it is certainly versatility. Hibbert could not and would not guard outside the paint because, one, he was just excellent as a defender around the rim, but he didn't have the speed or the agility to prevent blowby off a switch or judge a pump fake on the perimeter, and that's huge in today's league. We saw this a little bit with Drummond to a lesser extent. Drummond was more agile than Hibbert, but he's still a big, tall player who will have

more trouble shifting his weight. And in a lot of pre-draft interviews, you'll see the question get asked. What positions do you think you can guard? And the more defensive versatility you have, the better. And now it's becoming essential. And that's a word you'll hear a lot is versatility. It's what makes Draymond Green such an elite defender. His ability to defend Biggs with muscle and guards with his footspeed is invaluable.

And that's in addition, of course, to his exceptional defensive IQ. And Golden Stage Switchy Defense has served them well. and that's something the Pistons just haven't had with Drummond. This also leads to the Warriors' death lineup, which you kind of referenced from a few years ago, where they would swap out their traditional centers like Bogot and Zaza. They would put Iguidala at the four and slide Draymond to the five. And this lineup played fast and it could hit from anywhere, and it was nearly impossible for opponents to keep up and stop everyone.

And on offense, having range or being able to pull Big Men out of the paint, It's huge. And there's more than one way to do it, but the most obvious, of course, is being able to shoot jumpers. And this is one area where the bad boys were actually ahead of their time because Bill Lambert could shoot threes.

And the bigs of today who can shoot threes are extremely valuable. Yeah, I definitely agree on that. We saw things look very different. When Drummond was gone, when Drummond was off to Cleveland and Christian Wood, more or less became, you know, overtime. Like basically, Dwayne Casey for whatever bizarre reason for a while was, well, I mean,

starting John Henson, that was a little silly. And at times just even without John Henson on the floor was playing Christian Wood at the four and Thon at the five. And it's like, that's dumb because, because, you know, you want to have Christian Wood in the play as much as possible, especially in the pick and roll where he sees excellent in Thon is dreadful. But anyway, I mean, you saw suddenly the Pistons field and offense with five guys who could space the floor and they still sucked just because the talent really wasn't there. But it just opens up so much more in the way of options. And it was pretty too. It's like I've said this on the show before.

It's like it was so nice to see something that approximated a modern offense, especially after years of watching drum and sludge everything up. So you just, you really get a lot out of that. And also with the ability to pull out bigs, opposing bigs. Again, Rudy Gober, you bring up as an example. it's his defense that makes that ostensibly in most cases makes up for his cost on offense but there was a game earlier in the season in which uh in between it was between the lakers and the jazz and the lakers really gober is giving the lakers fits with gaville in the game so frank vogel moved anthony to davis the center and it's like oh well

suddenly goberra now needs to defend out of the three-point line and thus he can't defend the paint so now he becomes sort of a liability because his defense isn't making up for his lack of offense. So it's just, it's an incredibly valuable skill, and it's been remarkable how quickly, you know, now that we've gotten into the spacing era, you know, the Warriors are really a revolutionary team for that back in 2015 is when the death lineup began. And that was really revolutionary. And ever since then, over the course of five years, and then this really accelerated around,

you know, started really in particular in 2016 and really accelerated over the next couple years, the point where now traditional centers are the exception rather than the rule, and they are fast decreasing in number. And a lot of them are those who have been able to figure out to do it are not shooting threes. So, yeah, it's just an incredibly valuable skill, even as a center now. Yeah, absolutely. Another example, we saw this in 2017 when Cleveland had traded Kyrie Irving, but they still had LeBron, and some of their championship starting lineup was still in place, including

a traditional center, Tristan Thompson. but before the years started, they opted to move Kevin Love, who traditionally played power forward with Cleveland, that is. They moved him to the center, and they put Tristan Thompson on the bench because Kevin had size, but he was still able to shoot threes. And while he isn't the interior presence that Thompson is, his ability to be on the perimeter, opened up driving lanes that made it easier for LeBron to get inside

and worry less about Kevin's defender waiting for him at the rim. And in that case, Kevin Love at the 5 didn't work so. well, it's just not going to work for everybody. And he didn't like the change. But the decision made sense in theory. And that's very telling of the future of the league. So modern bigs, they just have to be more agile, more mobile, versatile defenders and have something of an offensive game that doesn't take away from or make it harder for

their teammates. There are, of course, exceptions to these general rules like Embedde, who even Embedde has a jumper in Yolkich, who move a little slower. but they make up for it in various ways. Yeah, as far as switchability goes, that's another way in which the league has just changed a great deal, that a lot of, pretty much every offense league-wide makes a concerted effort to get mismatches on switches. So if you have a center who is highly vulnerable to being switched onto by guards vulnerable in the sense that I mean that if you switch a guard onto him or a quick small forward

and he can be blown by all the time, he's suddenly a very, very significant defensive lie. ability because teams will target him again and again and again. You saw this with to Marcus Cousins, who after his Achilles injury was significantly slower. And the Raptors just, and I believe the Rockets as well, and I believe the Trailblazers do. It just repeatedly targeted him. They would run pick plays. They get him switched onto a guard, and he would get breezed by. And if he wasn't getting breezed by, he would be retreating into the paint and he give up a three-pointer. So you have to be, you know, it's just so important to have that switchability. And it's fine if you aren't great at it, but if you're really bad at it,

you're just going to be constantly targeted. Yep. And that's something that we'll talk about with one of these guys later, certainly. And modern fours, they're kind of taking on a lot of the same duties as these multi-rolled guys who should be able to space the floor and as well as go strong to the basket and a four-out, one-in offense or a five-out offense. But they need to be able to hit the three. reliably and it's for them especially it's even more important there are guys who play center like

maybe aiton who you don't expect him to shoot a lot of threes but he can still make like a 12-foot jumper reliably enough that there are still some driving lanes they're not going to be as clean as for maybe like timber wolves players who when carl anthony thomas is playing at the center and he's on the three-point line you have to you have to guard him so there are a lot of guys uh who are starting to try to learn that part of their game. And honestly, I think the best case for the Pistons is still Christian Wood. And we're going to talk about why. To start off, I'll say that Christian is the benchmark for me.

Even though he's older than these rookies who we could potentially pick, 24 isn't bad, 24 years old. And we've talked a bit about Christian's play style in the last episode, but today we'll take a deeper look at what Christian does that makes him so effective especially in the last 12 games where he played heavier minutes. Yeah. So Christian plays about half his minutes at the four and half at the five. But personally, I see him as a five. Where do you want him?

Oh, absolutely, at the five. I think, I mean, he spent a lot of his minutes, actually a lot more of his minutes pre-trade at Power Forward, largely because Drummond was on the team and still playing a crap with a minute at center. I mean, Drummond just, I think he played less minutes this year. year than he had in the past. I don't quote me on that, but I believe so. I mean, he's always been a minute muncher. He's always had the stamina to do that, which was an asset. But after the trade,

it took some time, like I said, but Christian ultimately just ended up as, you know, even if he wasn't officially starting at center, Henson would leave after, you know, not so long in the courts, and then Christian would just be the center. And I know you have, you know, really like to reference that wasn't the last, was it the last game they played? The one against the Sixers, I think it was. I think so, yeah. And he was all center in that game. But, I mean, you really, he's got all the skills to be in a very effective modern center

on offense. I think we talked about this in the last episode. He can attack off the dribble against slower centers. He can shoot threes. He's also great on the pick and roll amongst qualifying players, so players with enough possessions to qualify. He was tops in the league and pick and roll efficiency. see it for a role man at I think around 1.5 points per possession, which is great.

He's efficient. He's just highly efficient at most forms of offense, and that really opens up stuff for you. Now, it also helps that the average center against him he's playing is going to be significantly slower than he is. So if they are just like half a step late to him at the three-point line, he can either take a three or he pump fakes them, and they're forced to contest, and then he blows by them. And at that point, when the center, you know, with the center out of the paint, he's almost invariably going to have a clean look at the baskets.

I remember one play in particular. In which he got the ball at the three-point line, L. Horford, who for all his pillory is still a very good defender, was just a tainty bit too short, and Christian Wood pumped faked him. And then, you know, Horford responded, and that was it. I mean, Christian Wood was by him a half second later. And Horford didn't even try to go to the basket. He just knew it was over.

He just collapsed. I know exactly which player you were talking about. He really just clas. He's like, oh, he got me. Yeah. His shoulders went down, and he's like, whatever. And Christian, of course, dumped the ball. So I think he's got all the tools as a center.

Also, you really want him involved in the play. You want him to be the primary role man. I mean, that was another thing with Henson on the floor. It's like you'd have Henson out of the perimeter. He's useless. So Casey would just use him as the role man. And that didn't matter at that point, really, because the Pistons were not trying to win, but it was still irritating.

So you just, you want him involved in the play as much as possible. If you just leave him at the three-point line, he's effective, but you're wasting a lot of what he offers. also, though he's not the greatest defender, he did just fine at center. At power forward, I think he's much less suited to chase guys around the perimeter and to defend from the perimeter on end.

So I think absolutely he's a center. It's just you can get, you can capitalize on his talents to such a greater degree and minimize his weaknesses by playing in the center. Yeah. Yeah, he gives up some weight against some of these bigger guys,

but I don't see that being a problem. He seems athletic enough to play against them. And going back to that, that you mentioned Horford. Orford, a year ago, was like the best guy at stopping Embed. And that was, like, when the Sixers brought him on, and a lot of them knew, okay, this move doesn't make that much sense for the money. But, like, the main positive reaction from Sixers fans was, oh, this is the guy who shut

down Embed. And Embedd is one of the best centers in the league, but he's still a bigger, slower guy. So for Christian Wood to be able to abuse Horford that easily, despite, despite, all of Warford's like defensive prowess, it's just, it really speaks to the advantages of playing a faster guy as opposed to a bigger guy now. I know you had, you had mentioned the number of post-ups that players are using these days has significantly decreased. I don't know if you have that offhand. It's basically, just as the pace of the game has gone up significantly. Post-ups are a very slow form of offense.

Also, offenses have gotten more efficient, and post-ups are not really the most efficient form of offense. Basically, the only reason, the only, you're better off kicking your big back to the three-point line and having him shoot threes or just really just have him take more basic shots in the paint, because post-ups for most players are just not good enough as far as efficiency goes. So there are a pretty small number of players now who actually use post-offence as a primary form of offense. So just for reference, I think it may actually, the last I checked, the average

points per possession for half court was in, you know, 0.9, 6, 0.98. Maybe it's gotten a little bit higher. So if you're not at that threshold, it's really not ideal to be taking postups. And it's most guys are not going to get to that threshold. Like Mbid is a battering ram in the post. The best post player in in the league, bar none. The guy averaged 1.1.2 points per possession on five, you know, he shot, he just shot super well on five possessions. game. And he managed to do it with a quick enough pace that the Pacers were still a league leading, a very good team in terms of pace with him on the floor. Well, Marcus Aldridge has been operating out of the post forever. He's still good enough to make it a viable form of offense.

After that, the list really drops off Yokic into it. But whatever the case, you have guys taking a lot less post-ups like this year and beat in Aldridge were the only two guys to average more than four field goal attempts from the post per game. If you go back to 2015, 15, 2016, there were nine of them. One of them was Drummond, unfortunately, who averaged more than four, an additional six, who averaged more than three. So, I mean, it's just, it's really just started to disappear. That's one thing that Christian Wood is not a good post player, but it's fine. You don't have to be a good post player. And also, you mentioned that he gives up a lot of weight to some centers. That's okay now, too. I mean, you live with that. Your air of big, beefy centers is gone because, like, you said, these guys have to be quick now. Mbid manages to do it. Like, I don't know how, but any defense in which he's on the floor is much better. But, you know, it's an era, like if Dirk Novitsky had come into the league five years later, he would have probably spent his last five years as a center, just because that would have been the position in which he was most fit, most fit, rather.

Of course, you know, they won a championship nine years ago. That was a team with three shooters in the floor because they were playing Sean Marion and Tyson Chammer. It would never work now, but Yeah, definitely. I mean, you go back and you even watch the Miami Heat highlights. It looks like a completely different game back then. They played so much lower. They were taking long twos. The league has changed a lot.

It's kind of gradual, but when you look at it like that far back out, it doesn't seem like it's that long ago, but a lot has changed, certainly. A ton. And it really picked up in 2015, I think, and the league has just changed tremendously in the last five years. Just the paradigm shift. Yep. And that's another thing. I think it's probably more important now to be able to defend the pick and roll because it's such a heavy tool.

It's a tool that's used very heavily, rather, in today's league. And Christian Wood is really good at that. Opponents average only 0.91 points per possession, which is 85th percentile. He's good at reading the offense and reacting, and he uses his length to contest, and he was able to switch on to smaller guards when necessary. And that's probably more useful than how else. much weight he's giving up in the post and stopping guys like Joel Embed when he's able to just pull those guys out to the three-point line and make him pay from distance.

And that leads right into his offense. And he's got a great mix of size, speed, and length. And the pick and roll, he's quick and he can go up and get it with good hands and adjust in the air. But he's also able to abuse some of these weaker bigs with his deceptively strong frame. And he's able to push his way inside using a great first step. He's not trying to beat these guys so much with his weight, but his, his explosiveness and his first step is really, really good for him. And he takes long strides and he goes up and he tries to jam it on whoever is there.

And there's a particular play against OKC where we saw him pull Nerlin's Noel out to the three point line. And Wood took advantage of his outward momentum and he took it inside. And Noel was just kind of on his hip, like kind of off balance, just trying to keep up. but Wood went up and dunked it on Noel and the OKC help defender who came off of Saco. He's that powerful. And that same game, he got the offensive rebound against Stephen Adams. And Stephen Adams is, he's a brick wall. Christian Wood couldn't power his way through him straight up.

So Christian backed him out to near the three-point line. And Adams had to follow because he respects Christian's jump shot. And then once Christian took him like far away out, enough. He put his shoulder into Adams on the drive, and Adams was knocked off balance, and he was kind of out of bounds, and Christian goes up for the easy dunk, and he finished that game with 29 points and nine rebounds. And then referencing that Sixers game again, Wood blocked Embed twice with his length. One of them was on an Embedd jump shot. Now, Embed has a pretty slow release, but he's able to, it's slow because his release is so high because Joel Embed is such a tall player.

And like you said, he played primarily center in that game, and he still finished with six dunks against a defensive front court rotation of Embed and Horford and O'Quinn. And that's fantastic. But I think his best game that kind of showcased his skills was against the jazz, which was earlier that week in this last week of the season, where that game he finished with 30 points and seven dunks against Rudy Gobert. and it was guys like Svi and Bruce who were able to take advantage of the wide open pain that they were never able to get. Well, Drummond was on the court because he's always there

and Gober is always going to be right there and he's going to stop the drives. But when Christian Wood is waiting on the three-point line, somebody has to be out there with him or else it's just going to be an easy kickout and it's potentially a wide open three. And so Rudy Gober has to kind of leave and that makes it,

easier for guys who ordinarily wouldn't get such an easy driving lane. But they got that with Christian Wood. And this is against two-time defensive player of the year Rudy Gobert and Wood finished with seven dunks. And I say this because I think the pistons may have stumbled onto the future of big men and Christian Wood. And for a team that doesn't need to spend big and is rebuilding, trying to keep Wood seems like the obvious choice. The only questions are his work ethic and his drive once he gets a big

contract. We saw, we kind of saw it with White Side once he got that four-year, $80 million contract. His effort kind of fell off a little bit. And you kind of, you just kind of have to hope that that doesn't happen with Christian. Personally, I would be fine with Christian getting 12 to 15, maybe more than that, because the pistons really don't need to try to win. And now. They don't really need all their cap space to sign guys to win right now. What's your number for him? I would say I would max out at $15 million a year.

I'd like to see him get about $14 a year on a front-loaded deal. The Pistons really don't have any cap-space now, but by year three or four of that deal, they could definitely benefit from it. So, yeah, it's, I think you pretty much just have to try to keep him, not only because he's the kind of building block you really want to have, but because, you know, just really need somebody exciting to watch. So I think they will try to keep. And my concern about Wood is similar to yours.

I'm not worried about his work ethic. I think he's got strong to drive to compete. I'm kind of concerned he'll become a malcontent. I think he's still got that in him. There were all these worries about his attitude. And I don't think that those have necessarily entirely been solved. Maybe Dwayne Casey has been a very good, very good. influence.

But I'm just not sure. But that said, I think you need to take the risk. And if you blow it, then you know, you're stuck with a bad contract for the last two years of his deal. It doesn't really matter all that much. So I think you got to, you really just kind of, got to try to keep him.

And I think he will stay in Detroit just because the number of teams that can really make a competitive offer, assuming that he does want to get paid is relatively small. And I don't think those other teams necessarily have much more to offer than the pistons as far as winning anytime soon, which seems to be something that's on his mind based on what he's tweeted. Yeah. But yeah, in any event, I'd say at this point, why don't we transition toward the draft?

And yeah, I know we won't know until after the draft whether or not Wood will actually be with the team because they can't extend his contract right now just because of how it fits into the CBA. so they will have to do so after the free agency begins and I think I don't think they'll take a big regardless but definitely if they think that they'll be keeping him then the chance I believe goes to

basically zero so let's move on to the draft as we said it's going to be the big men in the draft read them in particular just something I'd like to note a couple of things I'd like to note number one the mock drafts are a very convenient thing

you know very very just convenience it's convenient in for people who don't want to do the research themselves. We've really moved into a journalism of what I've seen others, just call it Click journalism, which is basically that instead of media outlets paying, like highly qualified tenured writers, you know,

with the exception of like ESPN, they still pay Zeklo, for example. He's, I think, the basketball writer there is. But for the most part, like Forbes and CBS and whoever else, they're just paying independent contracts.

directors and their goal is just to get as many collects as possible. But just basically the upshot of that is that the quality of it may not be particularly good. And I think the average mock draft just, if this comes up a little harsh, but I think the average mock draft is certainly the case for the Pistons, which is I would say most important for the purposes of those who are listening to this podcast. The vast majority of mock drafts I have seen, either the writer either does not, does not, does not do his research on the players, has not done as research on team needs, which is especially the case for the Pistons, or just doesn't really get

the modern NBA. I like just, just makes suggestions that don't make any sense. Like, oh, you know, DeAngelo and Carlina D.O.combe should shoot. So it'd be fine to football mellow out with them. It's like, no, he's still a liability if you can't shoot. You know, also, DeAngelo Russell really needs the ball. I've, when it comes to the pistons, the player I've seen Machina most often is a Kongwu. And it's basically this sort of caveman logic that's, you know, you can basically sum it up in six words.

It's like drum and gone, need center, draft a Kong loop. And it doesn't take into account where the pistons are as far as, you know, needing players with upside. It doesn't take into accounts, you know, do they really want to draft the center with this pick right now and they need high upside players? player, it doesn't take into account where they need, you know, where they are in terms of, you know, they're at the very beginning of a rebuild. A lot of these writers seem to believe the Pistons are still trying to win every year. And it's like, oh, this guy will help immediately. It's like it doesn't. Oh, I've seen some of them say like, oh, he'd also be a really good fit with Blake Griffin. And it's like, A, the business probably could not care less about who will be a good fit with Blake Griffin at this point because I'm not trying to win. It just kind of happens to be here until the other move member's contract expires. Also, it'd be a crap fit with Griffin because he can't shoot. You know, your center who actually works with Griffin is a guy who can shoot. And that is not a Congo at this point. So my point is, if you're reading these mock drafts, just don't put too much stock in them because a lot of the time these guys have, at least where the business are concerned,

if not overall, they're not very good in my opinion, just not very good at their jobs. If you want the best draft analysis you can get, and no, we are not sponsored. I'm plugging this because I feel there are very, very few good writers out there who read on the draft. There's San Viceni from the athletic, and I believe they're offering all sorts of free trials right now. So if you want to get somebody who actually does the proper analysis and has been in the business for a long time, go with that. So in any event, when we're talking, the second thing I'd like to just like to note, when we're talking about draft picks, you really have to contextualize it as far as how these guys did in the NCAA level is at the NCAA level. And it's drastically different at the NBA level. I mean, the competition.

You go from, you know, don't get me wrong, everybody who plays in the NCAA is pretty darn good basketball player compared to the average person, but in the NBA, it's the best, the best, the best. The worst player in the NBA is an incredible basketball player. I mean, that can get a little bit less true when you're just talking about traditional centers who are there because they can set screens

and play decent defense and roll to the basket. But like, you know, any of you scrubs can go out there with Thaemaker and he'll destroy you, not just because he's tall because he's much more talented than you are, and he's a disaster at the NBA level. So I remember, I'm not sure how many of you guys know about this. I was playing in Brian Scalibarini, who was very likable guy, not a good NBA player. And do you want a championship with the Celtics?

And he was asked at the press conference, you know, I know you won a championship, but you didn't play any minutes in the finals. So how do you feel about this? And Scalabrini, just a big smile on his face, said something along the lines of, well, I'm just going to tell my grandchildren that I played like 40 minutes a game. So the point is that he was kind of a joke at the NBA level. And so people had this, you know, the given that he played in Boston, I mean, people had, after he retired were just shit talking about.

He was a guy who never took himself seriously. They called him the white mamba, which was just kind of like a, you know, poking fun. Reference to COVID, you know, to the dearly departed Kobe Bryant's, the black mamba. So after he retired, I mean, people talk shit. So he said, okay, I'm going to set up at this gym. He did it in conjunction with this radio station, so I'm going to set up at this gym. You can come and play against me. We'll call it the Skellenge.

And he just destroyed everybody who came up against him. This is a guy who was bad in the NBA and I think hadn't been playing for like three years at that point. And nobody's such a chance. Like nobody, even guys who were, you know, buying a standard more athletic than he was. I mean, because if you play in the NBA, you were an amazing basketball player. But at the NCAA level, I mean, you have a lot of guys. I mean, you have basically two categories. is you have your guys who are NBA capable,

and then you have your guys who definitely aren't, and that's the vast majority of the NBA. The NCAA has no hope of making the NBA. And they get victimized by these guys who can, especially the guys who can physically overpower them. You can look at Henry Allenton, for example. I mean, you've got a lot of bigs, these kind of unwieldy bigs who can dominate because they can do really well,

at least, because they have some skill, and they're bigger than everybody else. Make you look at Henry Allenton, who did pretty well at Marquette, but had no MBA upside. You know, he's maybe a slightly extreme example, but basically what I'm saying. If you look at how well they're doing in the NCAA, you have to contextualize that. And that's definitely coming to play with the first player we're going to speak on,

who is on Yaku Kongwu. I believe I'm pronouncing that properly. Yep. So, yeah, why don't you take it away with your impressions of a Kongwu? Yeah, so he's probably the closest thing to a traditional center in this draft. but he's kind of smaller and that's what kind of makes him intriguing. A lot of mocks have him at the top, and I think if you want to play it safe and protect your rep,

Akongwu seems like a kind of guy who's more limited skill set has a really good chance of translating to the NBA, which I'll just say this now. There is really no writers who get every, who like analyze players and picks and potential, even close to like completely right. It's just impossible to do. You don't know.

There's so many factors that go into how well a player will translate. You can only do so much. And I'll just say that the reason we think that, I mean personally anyway, that I think Hong was mocked so high is because his floor is decent

and his ceiling is just not, that high above that. He's the safest choice. And O'Kongwu is kind of like the player that Drummond should have been. He's just a great defensive player who can catch lobs. He doesn't need the ball in his hands, but he still has a nice touch around the rim when it's there. He's got nice spin moves and a soft touch, and he can finish with either hand. What he can't do, though, is space. And I mentioned this before, and we kind of alluded to it earlier, you can only have really one fit dependent player on the floor. Maybe two, if you have two really exceptional fit dependent players or two

exceptional talents. But I don't think a Kongu is ever going to be that guy that's worth building around. But if the pistons fall and they think that he's the best option, this is a guy who I think is a reasonable choice. Physically, he's six foot nine. He is a seven foot two. He thinks he has a seven foot two wingspan. That's his words. I don't think he's gotten the official measurements yet. And six foot nine sounds kind of small for a center, but combined with his leaping ability and instinct, that's what makes him a good all-round defender. And he really is a very good defender. He's got quick feet on the perimeter, and he's able to make good reads in the post. And he does a nice job staying down on fakes. And he picks his spots nicely to prevent dump off passes to

cutters while still showing presence to discourage dunks and floaters. He gets comp to BAM out of Iowa a lot. And that excited me initially because Miami's really good and they run probably my favorite offense. It's just a really nice driving kick. And I figured having our own BAM would be great. And I watched BAM's highlights and looked at his stats to get a better idea of his fit with Miami.

And I noticed that he basically doesn't shoot threes, but he still draws perimeter coverage. So he's out of the three point line and guys. follow him. So I actually went to the heat subreddit, and I made a post asking about it. And they said what he can do is act as a hub for their offense, and he can make passes to cutters. And that's enough to draw the opposing four or five out of the paint. I don't know that a Kongu can do that. He had, I think, twice as many turnovers as assists, but I think Bam also did at that stage in his career. but I really don't have any. I have very little faith that he would be able to develop this skill,

at least within like the first four years. We saw Drummond actually flashed a nice kind of pocket passing game, but it's a risk, and I don't think that's one that you can bank on when you make that selection. You can't, I don't think you can make that selection with that in mind. But I have even less faith in him developing a jump shot within the next few years. What are your thoughts on, Akongwu? I would say in the first place that I think the mocks to BAM are kind of silly. Excuse me, the comparisons to BAM are pretty silly, basically.

I think that it's a bit of a lazy, just a lazy way of drawing equivalence by certain writers. It's like, okay, here's a guy who's about BAM size. He also plays center. He's also really athletic, and you can switch on defense. It's like, okay, all those guys are valuable. now what makes BAM considerably more valuable is that A, his defense is really, really good at the NBA level. Of course, you never know if a Kong was going to be that good. But B, he's a great passer.

I mean, that's a big deal. He's a really good passer. He's a unique player. And we've seen no indication that a Kong can do something like that. And I feel like they're saying, oh, well, he's got similar physical attributes to BAM. So, you know, cool, he'll develop that. It's like, no, most players don't develop that, especially at that position. They just, they don't.

So it's a kind of case where it's like, okay, it's conceivably possible that he could be banned. But we're talking about a guy who's an all-star this year. I mean, that's a pretty big reach, I think. But when it comes to Okongwu himself, like I said, it's the guy most mocked to the Pistons. And like I said, it doesn't matter at all. But he's a guy who was very good, but not great in college. He's going to be just, he's young, which is nice. He's just past 19 to the start of the next season.

So, yeah, really good defense at the N2A level. He's switchable. It's very athletic. He's a good shot blocker, good rim protector. And like you said, really good on the pick and roll, pretty good touch inside the paint. And I would say right now he projects. This is just a traditional big with the high floor, but probably not a great ceiling given that he doesn't seem to have much talent as a score.

Others are going to have to do his work for him. So he also played a well out of the post at the NCAA level again. And also in terms of his efficiency, which is amongst the best in the NCAA, it's like, yeah, in the post, it's helpful that, A, you don't have to worry about pace as much in the NCAA, which is just much more slowly paced. Also, this is a 6'9, 245-pound highly athletic guy who's generally posting up on guys who have no hope of defending him and banging in the pain against guys who are just much less athletic than he is. So the cons, yeah, like you said, and no perimeter.

shot. That's a really big opportunity cost. Yeah. He had some, yeah, he had, uh, he showed a little bit in terms of mid-range jumpers. So like, but only the, only in the sense that, okay, the guy has a jumper at all. And it's not hideously ugly, but he was bad at them. You know, he shot them very low. So, uh, basically it's possible that a conwood, what you have right now is, is what's, you're going to get in, in a way that's, that's a good thing for, for certain teams.

because I think his skills are going to translate really well, and it's coming into the NBA, not post-offense. And like I said, I doubt he'll be as efficient. I think that's pretty much out of the question, at least in the short term. He's not going to be bullying guys like that in the NBA. But if you have a guy who can defend the paint, who's switchable on defense, who can set good screens and roll hard to the rim and has a decent touch in the paint,

you're always going to have a place in a rotation in the NBA. Also, you know, he's apparently just got a good work ethic and good energy, and those are basically necessary if you're going to want to be assured of a job in the NBA as well. But the thing is that that could be all he ever is. And that's fine for a team that already has the pieces, but the Pistons don't already have those important pieces. I think if you're the Pistons, like, I don't think you draft the center period, even if Christian Wood leaves, because it's the least important position. None of these guys seem to be game-changing elite talents. You don't want to, you know, it's really not okay for the center to be the best player on your team.

team anyway, like unless maybe he's Yovitch, who is one of a kind. You just, the most important players in the NBA are your elite point guards and your elite wings. And the Pistons have been terrible in both of those categories forever. Like the last good wing the Pistons had was Rip Hamilton. And, you know, as good as he was, and as beloved as he was, he wasn't really elite, at least as a score. It's good, you know, good defender. But he wasn't one of those guys who's likely to really take over games. He did at times. I know, don't, I know there are a lot of guys who really love going to work a lot of people really love to go into work pistons and so did I. But nonetheless,

Pistons haven't had a good wing in forever. The best they've had in like, since 2008 was probably Marcus Morris for one season. And as far as elite point guards, the best you got was, was Richard Jackson for one season. And he was good, but not great and played in a way that was never going to allow the Pistons succeed. But it's like been such a long time that I think us as Pistons fans have kind of forgotten what it is to have an elite point guard or to have good wings. And I think the pistons really just need to take a gamble on somebody at those positions, one of those positions who has a lot of upside. So, yeah, I already said, but I think out of Iowa's floor is,

like his floor is probably backup center. I'd say his NBA ceiling is maybe like top 10 center, like 8, 9, 10, if he can really become a great defender and if he can develop a jump shot. Beyond that, I just don't think he has enough talent to really place any higher than that. Do you disagree at all on the floor and ceiling? Not the floor and ceiling. I would just say that I do like the BAMComp because, I mean, yeah, he's not as explosive as BAM. He's not. That's the passing for me.

Yeah, it's, yeah, certainly not the passing. And that's absolutely critical to BAM's game. And it's the reason that he works so well in Miami's offense. And the other thing that I do like, and this isn't just a Kongwu, this is going to become more important for like pretty much all future centers i'm thinking uh he really is a very very good perimeter defender especially he can he can he can hedge pick and rolls very effectively in the in the ncala at least he was able to like kind of kill them before they even got got going because he was that agile so that's that's one of the reasons that i have him he's probably my favorite center in this draft uh despite the fact that he's uh like more of a real traditional big uh than

And the other guy who's kind of like right there with him probably would be my favorite center in this draft if we knew more about him. And you might already know who I'm talking about. It's James Wiseman. Did you have anything else you wanted to add about Okongam? Not really. Beyond that, and if I would have a big board for the Pistons, he wouldn't even be the top center on it. I just, I really don't want the guy in the Pistons. This is just good as, you know, it's always like a good character guy.

and he seems like he would be that, but I just, I don't think he's at all what the pistons are looking for right now. On my board, I have him right now anyway, I have him eighth. But depending on need,

there are other guys who might kind of slot higher who maybe I have a lower, or a lower ceiling, but maybe they'll fit better. But if that's it, another guy we can. I will say one,

I will say, I do disagree. Just as a final point, I do disagree a little bit on definitely projecting him as a good perimeter defender in the NBA, just because, I mean, the guys are playing with the NBA are so much better, you know, are so much quicker.

Like, defending at the perimeter on, like, you know, your average NCAA point guard, even the best NCAA point guards is one thing. If you are switched on by, to Trey Young, Damien Willard, or Campbell Walker, or even Derek Rose, these guys who can just easily blow past you, I mean, your job becomes a great deal more difficult. That's just a center out in the perimeter. So, and I think that's another place where we're out of bio is quite good, and that makes

them an anomaly. Again, just out of bio is an anomaly among centers. This is why I object to the comparisons of fairly anybody to him who has not demonstrated his all-around talents. But yeah, move on to Wiseman. Yeah, definitely worth mentioning. And a lot of people don't want him because he might be the other guy who's like the closest thing to an old school center in this draft. And I agree with that somewhat. And there's a real

challenge knowing what he can bring to the NBA because we only saw him play three games at Memphis before he was suspended and dropped out to focus on NBA training. And I don't blame him after that really stupid situation, honestly. But physically, he's a beast. Seven foot one, seven foot six wingspan, nine foot four standing reach. But drafting him is that is a gamble because you don't know if his dominance is going to translate to the NBA with size. He's got a very similar play style and frame to a young Joel Embed, but he has some of the same criticisms as Drummond, which is like the lack of passion and playing long rather than strong. But maybe that's not even the worst thing because Wiseman has that length. It's really the work ethic issues that are just reported,

honestly. But in his games, those three games, he only played 69 minutes, and he dominated weaker competitions. You even mentioned earlier. Two of them were, like, really, really subpar. You don't think, yeah, you don't think highly of the, you know, the basketball powerhouses that are South Carolina State

University and University of Illinois, Chicago. I mean, yeah, those, it's basically bottom of the barrel. His bottom of the barrel, as he gets in Division I. And he played one game against Oregon. which I believe they ended as a nationally ranked team, and he wasn't quite as, still played pretty well, but he wasn't nearly as dominant. Yeah, and the concerns with Wiseman,

in terms of translating to the league, they go back to his speed, really. He's not the fastest guy, and he plays long in a way that NBA talent might give him trouble. And as the league gets smaller, he might be able to capitalize on that if he keeps up with the faster pace,

but I can really only think of one play where he really got a, up the floor and transition like really quickly. And we've even seen, you know, Drummond do that. And he was not the fastest guy up the court at really at all. But Drummond did have a bad habit. Yeah, I guess that's maybe a matter of opinion of holding the ball after he got the rebound. And I feel like that gave the opposing defense time to set up on the other end and kind

of killed our transition game. So you don't want that. Yeah. So, yeah, definitely. Yeah, he actually denurped himself a bit because, I mean, the advantage ostensibly of having a guy who snared all your rebounds rather than rebounding by committee, which has its own

advantages, was like, okay, now guys can just run out really quickly in transition, but that never worked for the business, because Drummond would either just cradle the rebound for a couple of seconds before handing it off to Roger Jackson, the worst transition guard, probably the worst starting transition guard in the league.

Or he would launch a Hail Mary pass, which would almost invariably get intercepted, or he would bring the ball up himself, which is almost his bet. So, yeah. Yeah, no, that's in the transition game, it's probably less important in the playoffs. You don't see it as much, but in the regular season, that's huge. You definitely want to be a good transition team.

It's one of the best forms of offense, and it's getting more and more important. However, there is a key difference from Drummond that we've kind of seen. And that is that Wiseman does seem to have a jump shot. And the only reason that I can't put too much stock in it, is because we only saw it in his second and third games, and he only made a few shots with it. It's probably not even worth looking at the percentages because that sample size is just too small.

But if he is for real with his, if that's like a real weapon that he has in his arsenal, and he can actually draw defense away and be useful in a way that, like, DeAndre Aiton is, Aiton shoots, like, 32% of his shots from more than 10 feet out. And we've seen that, this, is it's enough that guys like Booker and Ubre have been able to get to the basket, whereas with Drummond, who's really not a threat from, like, more than six feet out,

he really clogs the pain. And if Wiseman's jumper is for real, that's great. But, I mean, we were looking at, like, highlights from his high school where he was shooting these jumpers because there just isn't that much film. So with his physical tools, he has the potential to be a great defensive player. He talks about his defense a lot, but it's going to count on him maintaining his agility. And if, God forbid, there's an injury that takes away his athleticism. I mean, that's really going to hurt him.

And he's kind of skinny for a big guy. And maybe he gets pushed around by some of the more physical bigs. but like we mentioned with Christian earlier, that's probably going to be less and less important as time goes on. But I don't think he'll be able to guard elite driving players, but a step or two closer, I think he'll be acceptable on the perimeter. But it's not something I want to rely on. And in his interview with Mike Schmitz,

and by the way, this is one of my favorite ways to do the research on these guys because Mike interviews these guys, and he asks them about, you know, about their work ethic, how they train. It's just a really, really great way to learn about these players. So they range between like 25 to 40 minutes per guy, and they're great. Wiseman said that he puts up 300 to 500 shots a day when he works out. So it's clearly something that he wants to be part of his game.

The hope with him is that he gets close to a Joel Embed who's like a bigger physical player who can work around the rim or Anthony Davis at the five type of player, where they both have like serviceable jump shots. I currently have him ninth on my board because of the limitations, the fit dependency. He's another guy who's definitely going to be fit dependent, you know, because he's going to be the slowest guy, most likely in your lineup.

But if he can put it all together, there's a chance that he's a very special player, and that's why you see him getting mocked as a top three guy. But there are certainly risks with him. What are your thoughts on Wiseman? I would say he's clearly a guy with a very formidable physical gifts, but the data is just not there. I mean, you have very little on the way of minutes at the NCAA level. Just the jump from high school to the NCAA is gigantic. The jump from the NCAA to the NBA is gigantic, and you have, for all intents and purposes,

like no data in between those steps. So entirely possibly he just projects as a very athletic traditional big. Maybe he develops a shot that would be big. But again, it's just, who knows? attitude is questionable. Maybe you would have learned more about that if he'd played an entire year at Memphis, but who knows? So I think it's like you said, a guy with great athleticism, great size, great reach, who's quick for his size.

Maybe he can be an elite rim protector and a pain protector. He seems to be good as a shot blocker, at least again, at the high school level. Like, it's just so much like a lack of data for a guy who's very raw, makes it so difficult to make any sort of real value. Yeah, and you watch his highlights. His length is insane, and he just, you really see it and he really plays that, he takes advantage of that rather. I mean, I think there was one game at Memphis where he had like six blocks,

but it wasn't the best competition. But if he, if he can learn to use that length to his advantage, because he's going to be taller than like the bulk of his competition on it, obviously, but, uh, so because of that in my mind, I think Wiseman has the higher ceiling, uh, but Akangu seems like more of the sure thing with the lower ceiling, maybe a higher floor. So that's, that's the only reason. I haven't like, honestly like neck and neck, but I think a Kongu has the edge for me because he's more of a sure thing. I know that, uh, you're of the opinion. I know you don't really want to center at all, but I understand the, the, uh, the idea that

we should kind of swing for the fences here, maybe take the riskier player. What are your thoughts? I mean, I would just say, again, it's just like you don't know. Ability, you know, like you said, whether or not he can develop a jumper is huge. You have the questions about work ethic and motor. I think that his ceiling is certainly higher than a Kongwoods. I think a Kongu is kind of what you see is which are likely to get. Maybe some improvement.

Maybe you can develop a jumper. but I think this is just basically what you see. I think Wiseman maybe has the potential to be elite, just based on what his assets appear to be. Certainly, you'll be able to translate some of those the NBA right away, like a screener, rim runner, probably as a paint defender, though I think he'll probably be very foul-prone at least to start. But beyond that, it's just difficult to know at all what we're looking at.

So I'd say he's a risky player. He might end up being a project, you know, notwithstanding what's a considerable degree of talents. he allegedly possesses. Now, as far as his ceiling, hate to keep saying this, hard to say it. If he really capitalizes on his talent, develops a jump shot,

and there are no issues with his motor, he could be a top five center. His floor, I would say bust potential, especially if you have a guy who only has a skill of a traditional center and has, and turns out to be an emotional malcontent, just with a bad attitude, bad motor.

Those guys can flunk out of the NBA. So I would say, as applicability to the pistons, is just a no. Again, for the same reasons as a congwu. Also, for me, because in a personal level, I really, really don't want to draft a highly athletic, but very raw, traditional big,

who has concerns over maturity, work ethic, and motor to replace the guy whom the pistons just dumped after a long protracted period in which he was really not all that incredibly effective, who was, when he came into the league, an extremely athletic, but very raw, traditional big, with questions over work ethic, maturity, and motor. I just don't want us to be subjected to that again.

I'd be more inclined nonetheless to shoot high on Wiseman rather than pick a Kongwu. But that's a situation in which, just because of ceiling, that's position, that situation in which the person's picking a center, which, as I've said, I think is quite unlikely. But it's a risk. I don't think a Kong will bust. Wiseman could conceivably bust. It's not other question. Yeah.

So I believe that takes us on to Topping. Topping. Yeah. Yep, Obitopin is a 22-year-old 6-5-9 power forward. Played a little bit of center with a 6-foot-11 wingspan who shot up the draft boards this year after making a leap as a score. He was overpowering opponents with some nice footwork near the hoop and gaining attention is probably the best dunker in the draft. He averaged one three-point make per game on 39% from distance. I see him as kind of a combination of old and young Blake Griffin.

He possesses some of the leaping and dunking of a young Blake Griffin, when he has that slow three-ball release and some of the passing chops of current Blake, but nothing special. The real issue I have with him, and this is why I'm kind of, I see him at, like, sometimes at, like, top two on mock drafts, and I just can't see that. I've been wrong on guys before where, like, I don't think their athleticism is going to translate,

and I don't think it's going to be worth it with Toppin because, one, his three-point volume is fairly low and maybe the pistons don't play that much in transition, and that's kind of where he needs to be to take full advantage of his explosiveness. But his defense is just such a mess on the perimeter. His lack of lateral quickness and agility, it hurts him everywhere when he's trying to read opposing players. He can't switch on to wings or he'll cause a defense. defensive breakdown. His skinny legs in high center of gravity make him ineffective as a post

player or a defensive post player. And I personally don't even have him in my top nine. With his age, I'd be surprised if it wasn't a factor for a team that's just now starting a rebuild. That's to say, you don't want to start your rebuild with a 22-year-old. And there's also the chance that his three ball regresses. And then he really has very little, except for his explosive dunking. He may his misses were bad and it doesn't seem like he's going to have the easiest time getting that slow shot release. I don't think he's going to get that off very easily in the NBA. And we've talked kind of at length about how important it is to be able to switch on the perimeter and he's kind of stiff with his defense out there. And I just don't like part of his game at all. I think he needs to

to increase his volume on threes and improve his burst so he can be part of a good driving kick offense that will allow him to get his dunks in the half court. But he's worth mentioning because, like I said, mocks have him super high and maybe they're saying something I don't see. And he's worth mentioning just in case the pistons do see something in him. I don't have much else to say about Top. And I just, I don't really like his game. There's not a whole lot of center, like or big man talent in this draft. I mean, the next guy would probably be like Alexei Pocosefsky, and he's rail thin. I mean, I think it's like 180 pounds, seven foot two or something like that. He's going to be like the ultimate project.

I don't think the pistons want to do another draft and stash unless somebody is somebody's agent. Yeah, but Oatoro as well. But, I mean, he's going to be, unless, you know, barring becoming like a revelation, I don't really see him going in the top ten. but I don't, honestly, to be honest, just to, I don't know a great deal about him. But you're right, that's just the, the amount of big men talent in this draft is,

I mean, it's fairly spare, at least the first round. But, yeah, with Topin, I would say, I can't agree with the Blake Griffin comp. I mean, it's easy, I think, to forget now because Blake, Blake was an athletic monster. I mean, he was super quick. He was his incredible leaper. He was incredibly explosive.

I mean, a young, just young, Blake Griffin, before all the injuries, you know, he was unbelievable. He was a freakish athlete. I don't think that Topin really approaches that, especially, I've heard it, but well, that his explosiveness is more just in terms of power rather than quickness. He's not really the quickest player. And comparing him to Blake, I don't think he's anywhere near the passer. He's anywhere near the offensive creator.

He just, he's not that great at creating his own offense. Longer arms, though. I remember people joking that Blake should have gone to the Raptors because of his T-Rex arms. So in any event, I would say with Toppin, just as far as where I think he's most likely to end up, you've got only two teams. I would say maybe Golden State because they're a team that'll be looking for talent that can help now. Though I don't think they're really the greatest. It must they plan on pulling him off the bench because you've got Draymond playing power for it, of course,

and unless they plan to play them long-term at center, which I doubt. But, you know, maybe they seem as used to play self-the-bench. I mean, that's one thing that should be noted is that you can't plug him in as small forward. He's just he's not fast enough, particularly on defense will get roasted. And it's no good to have a guy who's limited to just, your average forward can play both forward positions. And that's nice to have guys you can play either slightly up or slightly down the lineup. Top and it's probably going to be limited to power forward period, less whatever spot minutes. Maybe he sees in a small ball five lineup.

I don't think he's really flashed any acuity as a rim protector or pain protected, though. And certainly he'll be a switch risk no matter of which position he plays. You'll have guys trying to switch on him and those guards will beat him. Yep. That's my biggest issue with him. He's going to get attacked. He's going to be the guy who, if you pull him out to the perimeter, switch him onto a guard, he's the guy who's going to cause defensive breakdowns.

Unless he can loosen up his hips or something, he's just not good out there. Yeah, I just don't think he has the quickness, period. So, like, if you look at the best forwards in the league, I mean, you have very few guys who cannot play at both forward positions. And maybe this doesn't sound like as much as big deal as it is. But it is, I think it is a big deal. Blake Griffin is also one of those odd players who can really only play power forward because he certainly can't play small forward. And if you put him in center, he can't defend the room. He can't defend the paint.

And he's not really your ideal power forward body at this point because he's not quick. Like your average power forward is not quick. Tobias Harris used to be an oddity. because he was a small forward-sized guy playing a power forward. This was great for him on offense because you could beat guys off the bounce, beat his slower opponents off the bounce. Now your average power forward is that fast. So, and ironically, Tobias now is playing small forward a lot of the time,

thanks to Horford being on the team. So, yeah, the teams to which, to whom I would see topping Golden State, maybe, other than that, Minnesota. because I think if you're Minnesota, you think, okay, well, we need a power forward who's, you know, I don't think they really have any of the power forward right now. I don't exactly remember whom they even started at Power Forward this season. Jeez. I don't know.

I think they were starting Covington at Power Forward near the end of the season. I can tell you. Yeah, maybe Hernon Gomez. I don't really don't remember. they could really use a starting caliber small power forward which i think obitabon will be able to plug in his power forward but starting caliber power forward i don't think he'll he's likely to be really a star at the position but i think like a conwood he's a guy who has a high floor because he is a polished player of i mean he's pretty well polished uh offensively versatile he can shoot threes uh he

can exploit mismatches against particularly against slower bigs whom he can beat off the dribble on the way to the basket and he's got a decent enough passing game that when he does get to the paint he can kick the ball out if somebody's in his way and he's definitely got a touch inside the paint again like a con movie's fairly good post player which is probably not going to translate to the NBA but you know he's he's good as a role man and he can he can definitely score above the basket also good dunker so he's a guy I think that's going to have a high floor now his ceiling is going to be determined by how much development he has left to do he's going to be almost 23 by the time this next season begins in December.

And he only played two years at Dayton. So who knows, maybe he has more room to develop, or maybe he doesn't have so much room to develop. You know, his floor, I think, as a solid rotation player. You know, maybe a starting caliber player, if he's, like, the fourth best player on a championship roster. His ceiling can be considerably higher if he continues to develop,

and maybe he has that in him. I think it's probably somewhat unlikely, as you rarely see guys, I think, power forwards like that. really make that sort of enormous leap. Those sometimes you do. So it's not out of the question, but, you know, it's a big question, Mark. I don't think the persons will be looking at that position anyway, which I'll get to later. But the Timberwolves, you know, you've picked up DeAngelo Russell.

You have him pairing with Carl Anthony Towns. Maybe you say, you know, we think we've got the punch now. We want to take a guy who really sort of completes the lineup, even though they'll have a disaster of a front court defensive end. It's Carl Anthony Towns, whom I think he has more potential as a defender than, then, you know, he could be much better than he is, is bad, his bad defensively. So I think those are the two teams. Also possible that New York just decides they don't have enough power forwards

because they only have four of them right now. So, you know, if they want to further impede the progress of Mitchell Robinson by playing Randall or Portis at center, then sure, they've definitely got space for, for, top in there, though, is worth mentioning that, I think, like, two of those power forwards, I think it's Bobby Portis and, dude, I don't remember. Maybe Todd Gibson? Todd Gibson, yeah.

I think they're both on team options. They're probably going this summer. So, yeah, that's, those are the only teams I really see selecting Top and that high. I don't think Cleveland, maybe Cleveland goes for him, maybe, though I think Cleveland at this point is going to be shooting for a higher upside player. You don't really look at a team that's rebuilding and say, man, they could use, you know, a game ready power forward who may not have a very good high may not have a very high ceiling Chicago maybe they trade uh lorry Markinen so maybe they're interested Charlotte as

PJ Washington Washington Washington the wizards have uh Ruihachimura and yeah Atlanta is John Collins so I don't if he's going high he's going to a team that he really fits well now when it comes to the Pistons yeah we've mentioned that he'll probably struggle defensively, you know, be a switch risk and so on and so forth. Yeah, that's the biggest thing for me. That's what I think you're a lot higher than me on Obitopin, but the lack of switchability, and I think if his three-point shot regresses, and I think it will, he doesn't seem like the most natural three-point shooter. And if he is shooting at that percentage, the defense is going to tighten up a lot more around him. I think he's going to fall off a little

bit there. And then if you can knock his confidence a little bit, or you pick your spots right with him, I think you can take away a lot of his game, and his athleticism probably won't matter as much. So I am not high on Obie Topping at all, but I've been wrong on these hyperathletic, you know, big. I don't think it's high, I don't think it's hyperathletic at all. I think it was put well that he's not quick. He's just explosive. And I think you guys who are really hyper athletic are both. So, yeah, as I was saying about being position locked, there are some guys who can do it well. Like nobody gives a shit that Janus is, who ironically started as a shooting guard move to small forward and is now basically full-time power forward.

Nobody cares that he can only play power for it because he's one of the best players in the league. But, you know, I don't think Topin is going to really top off as anywhere near Janus. Nonetheless, I digress. One thing, more than 25% of his field goals were dunks. it's definitely not going to be that efficient at the NBA level. I mean, it's just not going to have that kind of luxury. It's just another case in which he was able to victimize guys who were a great deal less athletic than he was. So, yeah, I look hard to say, as he reached the ceiling at 22, if so, you get a reliable score, it can play power for it, and nothing else valuable, but not super valuable.

If he continues to develop, maybe it becomes a very good score. I don't think he ever has all-star potential. And I think that there are plenty of players in this draft. He and a Kong would definitely, who in a better draft would not be my job. anywhere near the top five. So sailing, if he is what he is right, it depends on what he is right now. If he's better, okay, great. You know, maybe it can be like a top 15 power forward in terms of scoring,

in terms of overall play. It's for a capable bench score. So the pistons, no. No, no, no. So the pistons need, like I said, need to follow. They really need to focus on the more important positions. And while topping is a score, they really, really need guys who can create offense. Top end at the college level, really needed help creating his offense.

So whether that be the role man on the pick and roll, or just getting spot-up attempts at 3.1, he really had no offense in between the 3-point line and the paint, which is fine. But, you know, he wasn't creating his looks on pull-up jumpers or anything like that. And, you know, but the Pissons really need that guy point guard. They really need that guy in the wing, and I don't think Topin is that high-ceiling guy

you should really ever consider taking. There's also a matter of existing personnel. I know that should not stop you from taking the best available talent. You know, of course, a couple factors that, number one, Topin is not, I don't think he's the best available talent by any means. Also, I really feel like Seku projects his power forward. You know, he could probably play down to small forward, but he's not a super quick guy, not normally ideal to play small forward.

I think he will wind up primarily at the fore as going to be his best bit if he develops properly. Also, Griffin, for better or worse, is going to be around for the moment. And he plays power forward too. Of course, that's much less interesting, but excuse me, not much less interesting, much less important. And again, there's question of ceiling. So, I mean, Toppin and Kong Wu as well, better fits for a team that is further along in a rebuild. And by getting rid of Jackson and Drummond was stage zero of the rebuild, now the Pistons are in stage one. There's a long way to go. You're not looking at the talent that can help you right now. And I believe those are the teams

that are going to look at Toppin. Maybe Cleveland is the only exception to that. And even then, Dan Gilbert wants the team to compete. That's why they re-sign Kevin Love. That's why they fired Tyron Blue. It's because he wants this team to win now. So maybe they do it. Yeah, let's see how that works out for them. Yeah, who knows? Maybe they'll have more success in the Pistons,

though, you know, I don't think Colin Saxon's taking them anywhere, and I don't think Darius Garland, maybe Darius Garron was going to make the lead. But beyond that, it's like, who do you have on the team? Yeah. I think Kevin Love, who hates his life there. And it's, uh, Osmond, who's, like, you know, the 20th best small football in the league. And who else?

Who else did even have? I think Zizich is moving back to the EuroLeague. I think he's still on that team. I'm not even sure. Yeah. Whatever. So anyway, I believe next time we'll be looking, what will be just wings next time?

Yep. Should you go forward? Yeah, I guess to summarize this one, it's really just to say that I think Christian Wood should be priorities, one, two, and three. there aren't many good big men in this draft class. This discussion was really more to complete this series and get this one done. And I think really the big man role has probably changed the most drastically.

And I found that personally a really interesting look because it's happened so rapidly. But the draft is before free agency. So if it looks like the Pistons aren't going to. to get Christian Wood re-signed. Maybe this is an option that they look at and if they have fallen in the draft. But there are a lot of guys who I think can contribute a lot more on the wing and as ball handlers. And we'll take a look at the wings next. And that's pretty exciting.

So anything else from you? Well, just to note, the NBA did move up the draft lottery by five days as well. So now it's August 20th rather than August 25th. but that's really where we're going to see, well, we're actually going to see nothing, probably, because I was going to say that's where we're going to see, you know, Troy Weaver's first step is GM, but it's actually not because we're not going to see that until probably October when the actual draft happens. So anyway, I'd like to thank you all for listening, as always, and we will catch you next time.