Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 164: All About Jaden Ivey’s 2022-2023 Season

Episode Date: August 30, 2023

This episode takes a close look at Jaden Ivey's 2022-2023 season. 

Welcome back, everybody, you're listening to another episode of Drive into the Basket. My name is Mike, your host, and I hope you are all having a great day. So not much of a preamble here. This is going to be an episode about Jaden Ivy's 2022, 2023 rookie season. Consider doing Jalen Duren as well, but it would have made this episode, I think, pretty long. Also, I tend to do a lot of research, and it just turned into a super, super busy day. Wouldn't have had time to do that research on Duren, still have a hope of getting to sleep at a reasonable hour.

So let's head straight into it, and I apologize if this turns a little bit into stat soup. There are going to be a lot of stats here, and I'll try to keep them organized, and yeah, let's not worry about that. So Jaden Ivy, 74 games played the season, started in 73 of them, averaged 31 minutes per game. Stats, about 16 and a half points, four rebounds, five assists, averaged about, five free throw attempts per game. Shooting splits, 41 and a half from the field, 34.5-ish percent from three, and about 75 percent in the three-throw line.

Averished about three-and-a-half personal fouls per game, 46 percent of the season from two, 53 percent true shooting, 48 percent effective field goal percentage. Shot about 37 and a half percent on two-and-half catch-and-shoot attempts per game, close to 30 and a half percent, not so great on about 2.5, pull-up attempts per game. So pretty decent on catch-and-ch-and-chute, pretty bad on pull-up. 36% mark on wide open threes, which is acceptable, but not great.

And the vast majority of those were above the break opportunities. And just to address a misconception, corner threes are not inherently more accurate, just because there's a slightly shorter distance to the basket. It's just that they're very, very often, much more often above the break opportunity, is completely uncontested. That probably plays the largest part. And when I came to Ivy's three-point opportunities, this is something I still didn't understand about. I mean, he did the same thing at Purdue.

He often just spot it up from well beyond the 3.1, which I got to think increases the degree of difficulty. So kind of struggle with this creator overall at a tough time when he held down to the ball for more than a couple seconds. About 58% of effective field goal percentage, which is, which is, you know, good for that. You know, it's just largely a finisher when he held onto the ball for less than two seconds. That dropped to about 43%, which is bad when he held onto it more than that. Though that doesn't account, of course, for possessions that ended in a free throws. 41% on pull-up twos, though he improved a lot of those on those in the second half of the season. It took a lot of them.

And only about 45% on driving layups, which, you know, you would think would have stents would be his strength, you know, being as athletic as he is, but he sort of struggled. About 43rd in the league and free throw attempts per game, for, you know, among players who played at least half the season, you know, one more free throw attempt per game would have made him 26th. So it was very, very good as a rookie. I get into the free throw line. Really fearless at attacking highly athletic. the sort of player really refs will favor when it comes to getting into the line.

So all those stats aside, it was really a tale of two halves of the season for Ivy. He really made a great deal of progress as the season went on. The first half of the season, not so great, second half, much, much improved. So first half at the season, about 15 points per game, four assists, poor rebounds. Pretty poor splits from the field, about 41% overall, 31.5 from 3, 72 from the line, for a field goal percentage, excuse me, true shooting percentage of 51%, which is wobble. league average. And yeah, in terms of catch and shoots was by a little bit below average and 36.6%. Bad, 25% from pull-ups. Only about 32 and a half percent on Open and wide open and three's

overall. The pull-ups, of course, brought that down. Bad on pull-up twos. Really bad, again, when he held under the ball for more than a couple seconds. And pretty bad in-between game overall. Really bad through close coverage. Kind of a player who was raw, exuberant, but really and really really, really still adjusting. Second half of the season, much better. So averages went up to about 17.5 points per game, four rebounds still, six and a half assists, up from four. Splits went up to 42.5% from the field,

most to 36.5% from three, about 77.5% from the free throw line. True shooting percentage, 54.5%, which is, you know, pretty decent. Assist rate, you know, 6%, excuse me, improved by about 50%. catch-and-shoot threes, really shooting from everywhere improved, 38% on catch-and-shoots, 35% on pull-ups, which was a drastic improvement, close to 40% on wide-open threes.

Pull-up two is 46%. You know, not necessary and not quite at the efficiency threshold, but much, much better. You know, that was a tremendous improvement, especially for a guy who had no in-between game in college and really in his first half of his rookie season in the NBA, did much better when he, excuse me, just as efficient, when he was creating offense went up quite a bit.

His, you know, improved a great deal on floaters. He shot not on high volume, but he shot about 56.5% on floaters in the second half of the season, again, much improved through close coverage. You could see things really slowed down for him. You could see him just get better at reading the game. Just kind of showed more veterancy, very, very raw in the first half, but grew a lot over the course of the season. And he held steady across the course of the season at about 60-ish percent, a little bit

above 60% of his offense being unassisted, which is a significant amount needless to say. So, yeah, I was very impressed at his improvement across the course of the season. You know, if we're talking about, you know, we can separate this out and just, you know, the good and the bad. So good is just a lot of improvement. Playmaking improvements. Like I said, the game really slowed down for him. He became much better at judging how to make the right pass, when to make the right pass. parlayed his gravity into pass has got much better at that across the course of the season,

and really adopted the primary playmaking role in the second half of the season. Though, you know, to be noted, he's more of kind of a driving kick guy than an orchestrator, kind of floor general like Cade, you know, which is fine for, you know, what I think will be, you know, is I think he'll be the secondary playmaker beyond Cade. Shooting improvement, a lot of that, especially in his form, by the end of the season, and he was taking some, you know, honest to goodness, catch and shoot threes with good form. His just dedication to improving is very, very noticeable. I mean, he's a guy who's pretty harsh on himself.

It seems to have a great work ethic. Harsh on yourself isn't always good, but let's just say he was very vocal about the areas of his game in which he felt that he was not doing well. And just super, super, super hard worker by all accounts off the court, super, super hard worker on the court. and just an absolute team focus and doesn't seem to really have anything when it comes to ego. Seems to really love Cade, look forward to playing more with him. And so, you know, you always like to see a rookie improve this much across the course of the rookie season. And just you kind of catch glimpses about what Ivy can be. And I'll talk about that a little bit later.

So when it comes to the bad, still raw on the drive. He really struggled there, and I'll talk to the, I'll talk about this more. You know, when I come to, you know, the concerns that he addressed and did not address, because I had quite a bit in a way of concerns about Ivy coming into his rookie season, you know, after the draft. Ivy was kind of like my one B behind Benedict Matherin, who was sort of my 1A in the 2022 draft. I wasn't unhappy that Ivy was selected. He just at the time, I felt that he had a lesser chance of providing equal value to Matherin next to Cade, but, you know, Ivy did address a lot of my concerns. So shooting consistency, I'm talking

more on a game-to-game level. Ivy would have some very bad games and some very good games, and often, you know, not much, very much in between that. He did stay consistent, pretty consistent month to month, which was not a good thing early, but it was quite a bit better as the season more on. He did shoot 42% in February, but yeah, in March, 35%, 38% in April. So, I guess not necessarily great consistency month to month, but just from game to game. Wait in the season, he had a very good stretch in which, you know, he shot consistently well from three. But on the whole, you just never knew exactly what you're going to get from Jaden on a night-to-night basis as a shooter. And again, form concerns.

He corrected those a lot over the course of the season. I'd still love to see him take those threes from right behind the line rather than, you know, like two or three feet. behind the line, but who knows, maybe that's his thing. But definitely something for him to work on. His free throw percentage, which again improved over the course of the season, but in this day and age, like a player in the 70s, even in the high 70s, especially a guy who's taking free throws on volume, you're leaving a fair amount of points on the table. And again, Ivy could be fairly inconsistent. So something else to work on that was something that he had issues with at Purdue as well. You want to pit those free throws. Needless to see.

say. Those are as close to free points as it comes. And finally, defense. Now, this was a great struggle for Jaden on defense, and he knows it. He basically came out and said that his defense was shit, and he was super unhappy about it. He said that after the season. He was a guy who at times was literally spinning around on defense trying to figure out what to do. It's just his awareness, and again, you could chalk this up. He's a rookie. Shouldn't draw any conclusions from that, beyond that he's starting at a fairly low point. His awareness, his decision, ability. It's certainly not for lack of effort. I mean, the guy worked hard. There's no area of his game in which he does not work hard. It was a matter of making the right reads and decisions.

He wasn't bad at it per se at Purdue. He struggled to a degree as a pick and roll defender, but he wasn't a guy like, I don't know, Marvin Bagley, for example, whom I know I treat as kind of the poster child, at least on the team, just a poster child for the NBA at large of a guy who just doesn't have it. You know, it's not about rawness, a guy who is just is a bad, bad defender who just can't make those right the right decisions at the lightning fast speed that the NBA game requires, but also couldn't do it in the NCAA. Again, Bagley was so bad on defense that Cheshavsky at Duke had to protect him by playing zone. The Kings picked him anyway. I mean, he was remarkably bad on defense in the NCAA. And after season five in the NBA, he still sucks.

He's improved a little bit as a drop defender, for example. And he's fairly good at sticking with guys, he just, he'll make mistakes inevitably, and a lot of them. And it's real tough for a defense to function with him on the floor. And my goodness, don't play him in the postseason. That would be incredibly ugly. It's in the postseason. Your weaknesses get attacked, and he would just get absolutely eviscerated. Your weaknesses get attacked more directly, to put it that way. There are just some guys who can play in the regular season, and he'll never put on the floor in the postseason. So anyway, I don't think Ivy is in that category. Again, he was more of just a below average NCAA defender. I don't think he lacks the ability to process. I think hopefully that will

improve in time. And athleticism and effort, they can't replace smarts. You've got to have the smarts at least to some degree, but they can help compensate. So all of this is just to say that I'm not worried. He was definitely completely, like, Ivy was a lot of flack as is rightly thrown in the direction of William Bogdanovich for his own poor defense. But Ivy was the chief defender, chief defender, chief offender in terms of defense. He was just very, very bad, and knowing where to go, how to rotate, where to be, you know, just not make mistakes and all-ball defense. Just, again, there were cases in which he was basically just the deer in the headlights and had no idea what to do. And give him time, let him study his film, let him season himself to the NBA game.

And we'll see where it goes. You know, it's not a story of writing. And it's not like, again, Bagley, who was horrible in the NCAA and came in and was horrible in his rookie season on defense. And then, of course, was horrible in his sophomore season in the NBA on defense, and then was just horrible in his fifth season. So not really coming in with quite the same concerns. But on the whole for the season, the team was a lot worse with Ivy on the floor. It was worse in terms of on-off that didn't really improve. But in the second half of the season, it became a little more difficult to separate the wheat from the draft, so to speak, because he was playing with increasingly horrible lineups.

The bench for the Pistons actually wasn't bad. a starting lineup that was the real offender. And it definitely didn't help. Again, the bench was okay. The starting lineup was very weak. And as the season went on and you had Wiseman starting, and then worse, he had Wiseman and Bagley starting. But the defense was at its worst with Ivy on the floor. It wasn't really all that much better. The offense was, excuse me, the offense wasn't, was also a little bit worse with him on the floor. But it was mainly the defense. And that included stretches when Boyam wasn't there. I mean, bad defenders, if you have a couple of bad defenders in the four, they'll kind of compound each other. Of course, those hideous

lineups, like I like to say, and I'd say this half jokingly, that the real punishment last season wasn't, my goodness, what I'm saying, I like to say, whatever, this is just a joke that I've made, I guess, that the real punishment last season wasn't really the 17 wins. It was having to watch Marvin Bagley and James Wiseman start together. So that was just three really bad defenders in the four together at the same time. Not ideal. You can kind of, certainly in the regular season, you can hide one bad defender, but those were real tank lineups, to say the least. It was mostly Wiseman and Bagley, just being an incredibly ugly duo, and I hope we never, ever see that again. So that was the bad. I would say the good outweighed the bad,

and Ivy gave a lot to be excited for, and if you can just continue to make progress on offense and, you know, and button things up a little bit on defense, then, which could certainly, I'd say happen as soon as next season would be in good shape. So I want to, you know, talk about the concerns I had about Ivy coming into the season, the concerns I had when I was doing draft analysis two summers ago. So in no particular order, the willingness and the ability to make the right reads and passes. And this was always going to be important. This is important for any player who is going to be on the ball of fair amount. Any player is going to be attacking the rim quite a bit as as Avi did. You also see this with players like Jalen Green, for example, for whom this is still a

question. I mean, Jalen is quite a bit better than Ivy at this point. At, and what I believe even in his rookie season at attacking the rim, which is fine. I think J-1 is a very, very talented score. But there's still the question, like, can you take advantage of the gravity you're creating to hit open teammates? Like, can you capitalize upon that? And also, do you know when to make the right pass so that you're not just taking a bad shot? Because then you're just a black hole. You're really hurting your efficiency or hurting the offense. That's not a good thing. So I had those questions about Ivy based on his performance at Purdue, he largely answered those as the season war on. Again, I think that he's going to be more of kind of like just a direct peer this guy is

open. I'm going to kick the ball to him sort of passer versus a floor general like Kate who's going to be thinking several moves ahead and just much better able to conduct the offense, you know, much better able to generate opportunities. And that's fine. I think Ivy is just going to be more of a secondary playmaker and that's okay. I think there's just an important distinction between those two. But he was certainly willing to make the right pass. He improved a great deal across the course of the season at making those reads off the drive, finding the open man, and like, particularly in the later stages of the season. Like that game against the heat late in the season was really his magnum opus on the season, in my opinion. And I remember one play in which

he almost just kind of used the way that he was moving in the threat. I can't remember exactly what it was, but yeah, I don't know why I got on to that. Basically, he just got better. He just got better and better at parlaying his ability. It's the gravity he attracted on the drive, because, again, he kind of struggled at actually scoring at the rim. But you couldn't ever leave him open. Like, if you left him in open way, and, of course, this guy is one of the most explosive players in the NBA

is going to get to the rim and score. So he got help thrown at him quite a bit, and he was really able to take advantage of that. And that was great to see. Also, like, there were some worries on my part that he would want to be the guy, would want to be basically playing a point guard role, a primary handler role. I don't think that's really a concern anymore,

but it was kind of like, is he going to be a guy who it really just needs to be on the ball? And, you know, but can't really make those reads and passes, can't really take advantage of his gravity. And nope, willing passer made decent reads. You know, I think we'll be fine at parlaying his gravity into opportunities for others, and definitely not a black hole. His shooting, which was pretty bad at Purdue despite the percentage, Like, it was really inflated in the sophomore season of Purdue by a couple of big games early in the season.

And then in the last, like, 13 games counting the NCAA tournament, he shot like 25% or something like that. So it really improved as a shooter. Again, the consistency is still not great. But in the second half of the season, I mean, at least his percentages were pretty good, especially on wide open threes. Getting close to, he got close to 40%. The pull-up three at 35%. on pull-ups. I mean, you see a guy like Luca, for example, who I believe was a 34% from three last season because he took a massive volume of pull-up threes. On pull-up, pull-up threes are just naturally going to be less efficient than catch-and-chew threes.

But they're a great tool to have both so that you can just take that pull-up three and also because opponents are really going to have to respect you. They're going to have to play you more closely, and that just makes it easier for you to get past them, especially if you're a guy like ivy who has a great first step. And if he can really make those pull-up threes from a few feet behind the line, I mean, so much the better. Form still needs a bit of work. We saw him, I remember in Game 82 against the Bulls. I saw him, I was like, man, Ivy just took the ball in a catch and shoot, and his form looked really good. He didn't have that hitch. So he improved his form across the course of the season.

Seems to be working on it this summer as well. I think he'll get there in terms of consistency. But I think he'll be a reliable shooter, which is super important, of course, in terms of, you know, both just being an effective NBA score, but also playing off the ball next to K'd or next to whomever. We also saw from Ivy some intriguing actions in which he came off of off ball screens to get the ball and shoot a three. And if he can be that sort of motion shooter, I mean, he is a very explosive off ball mover. I mean, that just opens up all sorts of possibilities in a new dimension to his game. If he can reliably do that and also, you know, shoot three is a catch-and-chute guy.

and continue to improve upon his performance in the second half of the season as a pull-up got him too, then, you know, of course, you're also going to want that off-the-drive game. But, I mean, you have the makings of a dangerous player there. So that was definitely intriguing. Speaking of his in-between game, that was another concern, because it was absolutely and utterly and completely horrible in his sophomore season at Purdue, like genuinely terrible. And he made a ton of progress on that across the course of the season.

Again, second half of the season, about 46% on pull-up twos. You know, well into the mid-50s on floaters lower volume, but, you know, it's there. That just opens up all sorts of opportunities for you. Both in that, opponents, again, just they can't leave you open. If you're going to be able to pull up from two and do that at a good percentage, it's just a good weapon to have in general as a creator. And, yeah, it's just, it's also going to make it easier for you to get to the basket. So great to see.

His attitude is a question mark to me coming out of Purdue. that definitely is not a concern anymore. Like I said before, seems to have a great attitude, hardworking, team-focused, improvement-focused. It seems to be really a model guy in terms of his efforts and really just seems to only care about the team rather than about his own personal stats.

Not a surprise given Weaver's focus on character in retrospect. And his fit with Cade, which was a big, big concern for me coming into the season. Not a concern anymore. Not just because he loves Cade. they'll buy all accounts they're pretty close and he's really looking forward to playing with kate his shooting is much improved again that i just my concerns were can he do it off the ball like can he provide good value if he's not on the ball that was the thing with mathern it's like and math around it's like and math around

wasn't a good three-point shoot of the season but he was in college and it's like as matherin is just a considerably stronger all-ball player he has a lower ceiling than ivy but is he going to be able to have a greater chance of providing value, the same amount of value or greater value than Ivy playing next to Cade. Ivy really dispelled a lot of my concerns as far as that fit goes in terms of his acuity off the ball. Shooting much improved, willing and very aggressive all-ball mover. Not all-guise are aggressive all-ball movers, including, you know, very, very, very, there's some very, very, very good athletes who are just not aggressive all-ball movers. That's a skill. So, yeah, can hit those threes. If he can hit those motion three is great. It's content to not be on the

all the time. So, and just, yeah, just going back to that offball movement, it can create opportunities in its own way because if you're able to beat your defender off the ball, then, you know, that's just another helpful way of breaking down a defense, whether you get an opportunity or not. So he really needs to be chased around. If he can get the ball or cut or whatever, it gives an opportunity to attack or pass, which he's willing and able to do. It's those actions in the NBA when you can just get the drive and kick and kick and kick. And, you can, you know, break down the defense at the point where you get a wide open three or an open opportunity at the basket. That's what it's all about. So just that ability to move frenetically and explosively off the ball,

you know, his his, his, his acceleration, his very high top speed, et cetera, et cetera. So concerns he didn't address. The rawness off the drive. Really needs to work on his approach and pick his roots and rely a lot less on pure athleticism that he did at Purdue. His real signature move at Purdue as he would turn the corner on a bad NCAA defender going to the right, and he would score at the rim before the help could get there. Not going to fly in the NBA, where defenses and defenders are just drastically better. So he's explosive, of course, and he's fast, of course, but he got stopped easily, ran into coverage, and generally that was that.

He's not very shifting necessarily in the ball, more of just an explosive straight-line driver. Not many moves, though, again, he always attracted gravity. but he attempted less shots at the rim as the season went on. Just turned more to his in-between game. I think defense is really kind of just got the picture on him and adapted. And he's just not great at getting through one-on-one coverage. That's something he needs to improve upon. But I think he really needs to improve upon his ability to make decisions on the fly,

on the drive in terms of seems to just pick a route and go for it. and you've got to be able to adapt to what the defense is throwing at you on any given possession. Better spacing, of course, will help. He was playing in lineups that had horrible spacing for the most part, because they always had, at the very least, Jaylen Duren, who doesn't shoot the ball. Of course, is traditional big. And Killian Hayes, who bought for a short stretch of the season, was a bad three-point shooter. He was also playing alongside post-shoulder injury Isaiah Stewart, who shot deserted him.

And so, you know, more or less there were stretches of the season, then he got to play next to Bagley and Wiseman and Killian. So the spacing was horrible, and greater spacing will help. And Ivy attacking from off the ball will also help, whereas he was forced pretty much to attack from on the ball into a clogged lane this season. So I think he'll improve in terms of his ability to process off the drive, but he'll also just have much easier opportunities. And his opportunities this season were just not good.

Also didn't help that Dwayne Casey a lot of the time. It was like, well, here, Jaden, take a pick and just drive in, and we can't really space the floor for you. But good luck. So I think it was a combination of those factors. But run us off the drive still there. And I wasn't, like, greatly concerned about his defense coming out of Purdue. That really wasn't one of my primary concerns. But if we just want to call it a minor one, then, yeah, that's something you still needs to work on.

So in terms of finally what he told us about his outlook as a player, I think a secondary creator, a secondary playmaker. you know, should be, he gave some glimpses of being a strong creator, potential three-level score. Again, the drive game, I thought that the drive game would be stronger at the NBA level and that a shooting be more of an issue, but it turned out that he improved a lot as a shooter, improved a lot of this in-between game and struggled on the drive. But he gets that together and just continues his improvement as an in-between shooter, continues his improvement, you know, maintains his improvement as a catch-and-chute guy

and as a pull-up shooter from three. and you've got a potential three-level score, their highly athletic three-level score, who's, you know, then that's a difficult player to stop and, you know, should provide good value off the ball as well. And, yeah, catch and shoot stuff, that's not creation, obviously I was talking about his pull-up game from the perimeter. And I don't think that he'll be able to capitalize on it quite a bit,

quite as much, excuse me, as far as, you know, breaking down opposing defenses and as a playmaker as much as Cade, but Cade is like a super, super high IQ guy. So that's kind of an unfair comparison to make. In terms of his defense, I mean, like I said, athleticism and effort can help see Reggie Jackson in his first season with the Pistons, who also despite having asthma,

which definitely limited his bandwidth, so to speak, and playing very heavy minutes and playing very heavy, high usage role on offense, was able to be maybe only a slightly below average guy, thanks to his athleticism and effort. Also his length, Reggie Jackson has a ridiculous wingspan for a side, I think Ivy's is like 6-8 or 6-9, though I don't think we ever found out for sure.

Redoux is 6'2 without shoes and has a 7-foot wing span. I mean, that's just pretty insane. There's never good on the defensive awareness side of things, but he managed in that season before injuries really saffed him of a lot of his athleticism to be just sort of an acceptable presence on defense. Certainly not good, but, you know, not a liability. Just, again, like below average but acceptable defender. So Ivy has that going for him.

And like I said before, I'm really just not drawing conclusions in the basis of his defense in his rookie season. It would have been great if he'd come in and look solid. But I'm not really feeling concerned about it. So, yes, it's just as far as that outlook. Yeah, it just looks to be, I think could be a strong scorer, a strong creator, a solid enough playmaker and in a solid fit with Kate Cunningham, which remains a very, very important factor. So in terms of a season on the whole, I'll just separate it.

out in the two halves, you know, like I did with just the overall analysis. I'd give him probably a C-plus, or, you know, maybe even, like if we're judging this, even on the basis of rookies, like a C-plus, maybe in the first half of the season, because he really struggled on offense and on defense, you know, give him a better grade again, just some, you know, him being a rookie being a factor. Second half of the season, I'd give him, I don't know, maybe this is overly generous given how bad as defense was, but it'd be plus just because of all the improvements he made on the offense. of any things. So overall, a lot to be excited about. And of course, really looking forward to seeing how he looks when the Pistons hit the floor in preseason and then in the regular season.

Not concerned about Summer League. I feel like Ivy was basically just there to get reps. And it looks so great in his first game, looked a little bit better in his second game. It's Summer League. I'm not feeling very concerned about that. So, yeah, just a lot to be excited about going into his sophomore year. So that'll be it for this episode. Of course, Jayland Duren will be next. And then after that, just going to continue, you know, try. I'll certainly just continue to put out content on a week-by-week basis. I want to be consistent for you, folks.

So we'll see where that takes us. So as always, folks, want to thank you all for listening. I'll catch you next week's episode.