Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 165: All about Jalen Duren’s Rookie Season

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

This episode takes a close look at Jalen Duren's rookie campaign with the Pistons.    Apologies for the late upload! 

Welcome back, everybody. Listen to another episode of Drive into the Basket. I'm Mike, and I hope you're all doing super well today. Hard to believe we're already in September. Summer's fading and winter is coming. Now, one of the only good things about Game of Thrones going absolutely belly up in the final two seasons is that now people can say that without somebody thinking they're super clever. And, oh, hey, Game of Thrones.

The other benefit, I would say, is that people can stop subjecting their children to a lifetime of getting post. by naming them after Game of Thrones characters, but I digress. In any case, yeah, so getting into fall here, the upside of that is that we're only about a month away from preseason, and this offseason, at least for me, has gone much, much faster than previous off-seasons have. Of course, nothing's going to compare with the 2020 off-season, which was for Pistons fans literally about nine, well, eight months long, a time in which, up until the draft, at least, things are a little boring.

One of the only things we really had to be excited about was Christian Wood. who just signed with the Los Angeles Lakers on a two-year, a better minimum deal. I know there was a certain amount of consternation when he was signed and traded to the Rockets. It turns out that the guy is just an absolute and utter locker room cancer. And cancer on the court as well, who just refuses to play defense, refuses to pass the ball and so on and so forth.

It's incredible to me that he has not to this point still has not figured out that he is the problem. But that's how it goes. you're not really in all walks of life, including professional basketball. Super talented offensive player, but you can be a super talented offensive player. Well, very talented, certainly, I would say. I don't know if we put them in a super talented category. But in any event, you can be a really, really talented offensive player,

and still teams might want nothing to do with you if you suffer from the issues, the mental issues, the behavioral issues that Christian Wood does both on and off the court. So, yeah, just something I was thinking about. about. Fortunately, we ended up with much bigger things to be excited about, you know, by the time the 2020 draft came around. In any case, so today we're going to be talking about Jalen Duren, and unless my mind has really gone and I'm forgetting about somebody, this is the last player I've yet to go over, and it just kind of happened this way. I was planning on doing Avi and Duren on the same episode, but as I mentioned last week, I just didn't have the time to do it that day. I put quite a bit of

research into each of these episodes. Probably spend more time doing the research just on a purely numbers-based level. Of course, we've all watched the games, but just on a purely numbers-based level than I do for, and then I do actually record in these episodes. So not bragging. It's just, that's why those students didn't get put together last time. So let's talk during selected, of course, in the 2022 draft as part of a trade in which the Piston sent out the pick. They had acquired by trading Jeremy Grant's to Portland, and they also took on Kemba Walker's salary. Really, the fact that Jalen Brunson now plays for the Knicks is something really made possible by the Pistons, who took on, oh goodness, about, I think, close to $30 million in salaries.

From the Knicks, of course, Kemble Walker didn't play a minute for the Pistons. Nerlands Noel was rarely used. Alec Berks has been, and the Pistons got a second round pick, or two. sorry, I always forget to put my phone on vibrate. Yeah, the business has got some draft assets alongside Alec Berks, who, despite last season having been, of course, you know, not a success in the wins column was a useful, it was a very useful player. And I think we'll be a useful player again in the upcoming season.

So Jalen Duren, youngest player in the league last season, he had actually reclassified to go into college a year early. So his freshman season at Memphis, he should have been a, senior in high school. And if he hadn't reclassified, he would have been a freshman in college and what turned out to be his rookie season of the NBA. And he was for me a pleasant surprise. I didn't think that he was going to play in the G League. You know, I figured that he would stay with the main roster. But I didn't expect him to come in and contribute the way that he did. I mean, he had his warts, of course, like any rookie did. And Jalen Durham was coming in very, very raw.

And that's really the fact that he was coming in that raw was why I expected him to have more in the way of struggles. But for a rookie, I'd say he was pretty good. Of course, ended up second team all rookie, which is great. And he just did better. He was further along than I expected. And I think he gave us really a lot to be excited about. So let's talk about his season at large. And he was kind of like Ivy in that he started off, things were more difficult for him early on, I'll put it that way. And he got progressively better as the season went on. On the season as a He played 67 games, started 31 of them, average 25 minutes per game, had nine points, nine rebounds, one assist per game on 65% from the floor,

zero percent from three, obviously he was not shooting three as he attempted to the entire season, and 61% from the line. He ended up in the starting lineup after 24 games in the 7th of December against Memphis. He stayed there until he got injured in late February, after which, even after he was back, we continued being treated to the wonderful Bagley-Wiseman duo in the starting lineup instead. I think that was probably just the team not wanting to bring him back too fast from two bad ankles for no reason, given that the piss since we're trying to lose games at that point. So he was not quite as good in his stint before joining the starting lineup, again, you know, just horribly surprising.

He was a very young player by NBA standards coming into his rookie season, so not a criticism. This is just to say that he improved quite a bit over the course of the season. So in those first 24, or let's just talk about the improvement, rather, you know, his first 24 versus his final 44 games, in which he started 31. Again, he lost his spot in the starting lineup for what all that was worth after his injuring February. Oh, his minutes per game increased, of course, from 22 to 27. And, well, screw up. We'll just go with this on a more just basic comparative basis. And his first 20 to 24, he only averaged about six and a half points, seven rebounds, one-half of an assist.

and those numbers went up quite a bit after that point, after he began starting, after began getting more minutes and in a larger role. In his final 44, he averaged 10.5 points, 10 rebounds and 1.5 assists. His field goal percentage over those first 24 games increased from 61 to 67. Free throw percentage increased from 49 to 68. True shooting overall from 60.5% to 67.5% true shooting is definitely where you want a player like Durn to be a traditional big who's mostly just finishing offense, and he did that very strongly.

Wayups were a little bit of an area of weakness for him, and I'll talk about that, but he improved those drastically over the course of the season from about 32 and a half percent in those first 24 games to 53 and a half percent in the final 44. His percentage in the restricted area went up about three and a half percent from 70 to, you know, a little ways above 73. though his rim defense got worse in the starting lineup probably. He was up against more difficult opposition. So during his time as a starter of centers who started at least 30 games,

Durham was sixth in rebounds, six and rebounds per 100 possessions, excuse me. Mostly middle of the pack elsewhere except in fouls where he was top 10. He was kind of near the bottom in terms of points per game. That's not a bad reflection on him. That's just how he was used. It was sixth and true shooting percentage, though that's skewed by. traditional center stuff. I mean, he was mostly just finishing easy opportunities. And again, a very solid, as a starter, 74% restricted area. That's pretty strong. Top 10 and put back points

per game on the season, kind of middling in points per possession, thanks in part that, the way the NBA tracks those stats also counts for free throw percentage. And Derns really wasn't necessarily great. Also, he struggled with the layups early. Again, got stronger on those. A real strong finisher, even through tight coverage. He shot in the mid-60s. He's even on, you know, even when he was tightly covered. I mean, again, mostly just finishing, but still, you know, that's a skill. Some guys just cannot finish through tight coverage. I don't know, like our favorite departed former quote-unquote franchise center included

a guy by the first name of Andre who was terrible. It's going through tight coverage. So it's not necessarily a skill everyone has. It's somewhat decent in the paint outside the restricted area, around 50% for a rookie at least. Top 10 in dunks. the NBA in the season, and they made up a larger percentage of his field goals, of his total field goals attempted than any player high on that list, who is not named Mitchell Robinson. I think it at around 40%. He goes up hard. He's a good dunker. Strong, really rattles the rim.

Pretty strong in the pick and roll. Tried some creation, but generally had a rough go of it, and that's no big deal. That really was not his forte probably at any point in his basketball career. Who knows in high school? These guys are basically deities amongst men in high school. But at the NBA level as a rookie as a guy who I wouldn't say well certainly wasn't in the NCAA and might get the highest level it's just not a big deal that he struggled maybe he'll get that together and maybe he won't we'll see talk about that later so let's talk about the good rim help defense and defense in transition as well durin is very I mean he moves

very very well for a big and he's a great leaper he's got a great wingspan and he was good at coming out of nowhere for blocks particularly in transition. I think if the opposition got a steal, it wasn't out of the realm of possibility whatsoever that Duren would come blazing down the courts and get a block, you know, before the opposition was able to score before a player who was significant, almost invariably significantly smaller than him and should have been quicker, was able to get the basket and deposited in there. So that was cool. He's very able to cover for his teammates. I guess he can reposition super well, again, especially for a guy his size. Duren, they would not have. He would not

hesitant to call him one of the strongest players in the league already, even just coming into the league at a very chiseled 250. I don't think he's likely to get even stronger than that, because after a point, it just makes you slower. It's also hard on the body. When you're young, like when players are in their, you know, up until like their late 20s, it's fine to be, like, absolutely huge. You know, your body can take it. You'll see a lot of guys lose weight deliberately when they, when they're heading into their early 30s just to prolong their careers. Like, Dwight Howard is an example of a guy who ended up really suffering. That's Dwight Howard.

I mean, that guy was incredibly, incredibly strong. It's just an incredibly strong of her body, you know, even by the standard. It's like compared to Jalen Duren, for example. So, you know, super strong, very athletic, repositions well, mobile, good lateral mobility, etc. Gets around well in the interior. And so if somebody got past one of his teammates, he stood a good chance of getting there to challenge in time. and that's a great skill to have. Transition also on offense, again, runs the floor exceptionally well for a guy his size.

Finishing, layups needed help a bit. We'll talk about that. But as a dunker, I mean, it's tough to keep the guy from going up. I mean, he just goes up extremely strong, whether through contact or otherwise, and he brings the ball down real hard. And he finishes from above the rim very much from above the rim when he needs to, needless to say. As a vertical spacer, I'm really excited to see what we're going to get next.

season when he's with a coach who doesn't hate vertical spacing. And so he was really strong there on the pick and roll. And just as a screen setter in general, the guy sets hard screens. He is not afraid to get right in front of somebody. He does not shy away from it like, I don't know, Wiseman or Bagley. He sets hard screens. They're tough to get around, and he's pretty good at doing it without completely flattening guys, which is sometimes an issue with younger players who are strong and set hard screens. It's different if you're not quite so strong. And you might set a screen that's slightly illegal, but it doesn't completely knock the defender flat. Dern doesn't have that issue.

In terms of physical play overall and his work ethic, really worked hard on every possession. Really just was out there grinding, which, again, is great. That was another one of the questions coming in. It was his motor. It wasn't in the sense of drummond, for example, where it's like, is this guy just going to go out there and, you know, and check out, for example. it was just, is he going to be able to stay engaged? This is particularly on offense. Is he going to be able to stay engaged when he's not actively in the play?

The answer was yes. There was really, you know, no question of that from game one, you know, from the very, very beginning. The guy goes out there and works hard, whether it's setting screens, whether it's finishing, whether it's clearing space around the basket. He goes out there. He plays his role. He didn't do more than was asked of him.

He did exactly what was asked of him. And it's just a strong team player. and he's I mean he's like I said a very formidable physical presence so you know overall I'd say he did most things he did some things well he did most things at an okay level there weren't really big weaknesses in his game and that's good for a rookie I mean there were there were some holes he's still raw but he he looked I mean it's like I said it was there's a lot to be excited about and he did not really flash any cardinal flaws. So let's talk about the not so good. And again, none of these things are really things I'm concerned about him not improving upon. Number one, just seasoning.

You know, rawness overall. There is an adjustment period for the vast, vast majority of rookies coming into the NBA. Duren was raw than most. Again, the guy, if he hadn't reclassified, would have been a senior in high school, excuse me, a freshman in college last season. Again, youngest player in the NBA, what that's worth. And that really manifested itself particularly on defense where he wasn't bad by any means. He just would find himself in situations like Duren has a lot of upside as a defender. I think he'll be stronger as a drop defender versus like Isaiah Stewart, for example, who is equally strong if you make him switch versus make him drop. I think Duran's going to be a strong switch defender. I think he's going to be particularly strong as a drop defender.

and you just saw him defend on drives in some ways in a way where he was just a little bit out of position or just like not necessarily out of position but just not contesting in quite the right way it wasn't like man what are you doing it was just okay you're giving up a few inches and all these elite scores and the NBA need is a few inches adjustable or just a little bit out of like actually out of position in terms of where he should be to try to disrupt things and once again not like oh my goodness what are you doing but instead just you know almost there but just out of position enough that somebody was going to be able to take advantage of it or in terms of how he was contesting shots like okay you're doing a pretty good job of it but you're just leaving these little

holes here and again all the NBA all these scores in the NBA were the best in the world the best in the world like I was thinking last night about how Rodney McGruder is one of the best basketball players in the world is, you know, if we're talking like there are 500 spots in the NBA or a little bit over 500, assuming every team in the league is using all 15 spots. And I guess that's going to be more this season if they're using all three two-way spots. I digress. So, yeah, you just leave those little holes. Guys are going to be able to score through those. And just not really using his length to be as disruptive as he could. If you want to see a guy who's great at using his length to be disruptive in the Pistons book is Isaiah Stewart, who's always, you know, very high up.

there among centers in terms of shots contested, but also just in ways they can't really be measured because no stat can measure that. No stat can measure the vast majority of defense, of course. But, you know, Duran needs to work on being more disruptive with his length. So in some, this is very different from looking at a rookie and saying, do you really have the processing to do this? I don't think that's a concern with Duren. I think it's just more a question of seasoning and just working. a little bit on a positioning on defense in general, a little bit just on the best way to contest shots, the best way to contest drives.

He can stay with guys. Like you make him switch, whether from the interior or, you know, when the guy is already in motion, he moves well laterally. He can stay in a low position, you know, while sticking with the guy. He's really good at if he has to kind of contorting his body a bit while he's, you know, still moving laterally as fast as he can to try to contest shots. And, you know, he gets there very easily. He gets there to contest shots when, you know, he's not defending one-on-one when, you know, when the guy is just going to get to the rim. It's just, I think, I think, a question of just making those kind of tweaks to his game.

I don't think that Duren is far away from being a strong defender in the NBA. I think that's just a matter of seasoning versus with some players. It's a question of, do you have the mind for it? Do I think Duran has an elite defensive mind? No, you know, but that's not a knock against him. The most guys, you know, there are a few guys who have elite defensive minds. But I think that he's got solid, maybe even good defensive IQ, and he's got a great body to play defense at the NBA level at center.

So I think there is just a matter of seasoning. Of course, the massive players around him didn't help. I mean, he was routinely on the floor with, in the starting lineup, at least, with two bad defenders in Boyan, who's just a bad defender, and Ivy, who like would really, really, really, as I mentioned, the last episode, had a great deal of struggling. on defense. His touch on layups and his free throw percentage. So coming into the season, I was pretty bullish on Duran. At least, like, I thought he really had solid, you know,

easily starting center potential. Just if he could get his, just improve his defense. Or if he could just be a solid defender. He could be, you know, a solid starting center for most any NBA team. I thought that his only realistic route to failure was if he was just too inefficient as a scorer. He did have his struggles on layups. As I mentioned, he was, did improve, but just his touch wasn't great there, which denied, this chiefly just denied him and won opportunities because he's just so good at grabbing the ball and going up fast for dunks. And on those, you can follow him. It doesn't matter. He's going to get to the line. So, but it's important to be good on layups if you want to be a good finisher. You can't dunk everything.

And his touch was just a little difficult there. Again, that can just be a rookie thing. he did have that issue at Memphis, though it's tough to tell how much these post-up opportunities figured into that, because Penny Hardaway, whom I really don't think he's a very good coach, a very good NCAA coach at all, had him posting up a lot. But, you know, particularly you have guys, especially guys who are on the rarer side of things, finishers at center who come into the NBA and suddenly are trying to finish through enormously, trying to finish layups through enormously more difficult defensive coverage. everything is much more difficult at the NBA level.

Guys can struggle there. And again, he improved. You'd like to see that continue to improve. At least get yourself into the high 50s. And I think he'll be fine. I was concerned about it early in the season. But yeah, I think he'll be fine there. A free throw percentage, again, improved quite a bit over the course of the season.

Though after, you know, from that starting lineup, from that period when he came into the starting lineup onward, he still only shot, you know, a little bit shy of 70%. 10 years ago, this wouldn't have been an issue. But these days, you know, you're leaving some points on the table in a league in which you don't, you know, you can't afford to leave any points on the table if you're almost shooting about 68%. So you want to improve on those things. For any traditional center, it's very, very important that you be a very high efficiency score because you're not really providing really anything else as a, you know, as a creator at the very least and you're not spacing the fore. Again, I know we saw a little bit of that at Summer League. I'll talk about that.

And so if he can just improve a bit on layups, if he can improve a bit on the free throw percentage. Again, I don't see a reason why he won't. It's not like his touch on free throws is terrible like some players. I think this is just a matter of work for him. And I'm not going to call creation necessarily a bad. He struggled at that quite a bit in his rookie season. Not everybody needs to be a creator, especially if your traditional center, you don't need to be a creator, necessarily to be an effective player, even for some players to be an All-Star caliber player.

It's nice if you're able to create their mismatches. We saw some flashes of that. You put the player on Duren, who's just much smaller than he is. He has no compunctions about using his strength to bully guys. This is not a guy who he uses those physical assets of his and he seems to like to really throw his weight around. So if you get a smaller player switched on to him, then he's likely to just go to work.

And he flashed also, I forgot to put in the good category. Flash some playmaking. Some acuity is an interior playmaker. saw a bit of that at Memphis as well. And I think you'll ultimately see him be able to take advantage of those mismatches to pass the ball when somebody comes to help. So let's get back to the creation party. Flashed a little bit of acuity off the drive. You know, just a couple plays. Like I remember one in particular in which he saw an opening and just drove past Bamatabio to score at the rim. I think it should be, it's like it's cool if he has that. I don't think that should be conflated

with, you know, he'll be used as creator, just these flashes necessarily. In the NBA, It's less about, you know, can you technically do it? And more about, is it worth having your team have you do it? Like, everything in the NBA has gotten down to a scientific level, particularly in terms of efficiency. Summer League, like we saw him do some shooting in Summer League. Just take a couple of twos. Take a couple of threes. Take a couple of twos off the drive.

I wouldn't take it too seriously. Number one, it's Summer League, where again, you know, go out and do your thing, shoot your shot. You know, if you're a guy who's played in the NBA already, even if you have. and, you know, just go out there and experiment, which isn't how things work in the NBA. And I'd be shocked and very, very happy if he were able to pull off those off the drive jumpers at the NBA level. But I think that's a lot to hope for. I think the chances that he's going to be trying off the dribble jumpers against NBA defenses is very low. Just because it's unlikely to be a play.

In my opinion, again, would be happy, to be proven wrong. It's a tough play to make efficient, and it's probably not the best use of Duren. The three would be very nice for him to have for spacing on ISOs and just have more options in general. But the team is likely to, even if he's like a decent shooter from three, maybe he will be, who knows. It is like the team is likely, coaching staff is likely going to want him in the flow of off, the floor of the offense and the interior for pick and roll, screening elsewhere, clearing space, finishing rebounding, and so on. That's where he gets a lot of his value and does, you know, most of his important work. And taking him out of the paint or out of the interior just to spot him up on the person.

you lose all that value. So if he can shoot, it's like, cool, that would be, that would be great. Just gives you a lot more options. You know, he's going to have to be good at it to justify putting him out there on the perimeter, but it, you know, it does give you more options. You know, that would be fantastic. Can he do it? Can he progress from total non-shooter to shooter? It's not out of the question, has been done. Hope it can work with him. So just in terms of his outlook, let's move on to that. In my opinion, he's just good defense away from being a top 10 center in the league. Of course, the disparity between top 10 and top five among centers is pretty significant. Like, you're a really upper, upper echelon of guys like, you know, Yokic, Davis,

M. B'd, even somebody like out of bio or so on. Maybe Sabonis, though, he's definitely got his issues on defense that are less of a problem in the regular season, but are magnified pretty significantly in the postseason. But your difference between your superstar centers and those last two I don't consider superstars. And like the rest of the top 10 is pretty significant. And on the last top 10 center, that's a good thing. You know, it's just, it's a very good thing to have. I think Duran has all defensive potential. It just needs to work a little bit on tweaking his defense, just improving it in ways that are easily achievable.

And then you'll have a guy who, in my opinion, who I think will be a strong defender, and we'll do a very good job of what is asked of him on offense. Not everybody needs to be a creator. You know, I've said this before. I hate it when I say that. But not every guy is going to be a star. Not every guy is going to be a strong all-around player at the NBA level. The vast majority of guys are not going to be at the very, very highest level.

And if he's just a traditional big who does all the dirty work that a traditional big does on offense and finishes at a really high percentage, provides vertical spacing, that's fine. Of course, you'd like more, but that's perfectly fine. And that's how it is for a lot of guys. If you're a traditional center and you play strong defense, you're a strong rebounder, you work really hard and you finish at a high percentage in the restricted area, you can be a very valuable player.

You can even be an all-star player. Look at Jared Allen, for example. You know, so that may be his lot. He may just be chiefly a finisher who can attack some mismatches down low, do some playmaking, looking forward to seeing what's done with that under a more creative coach. You know, he can be a real good player, just doing that. So what to look for for next season? Again, we'll do, you know, I'll do some season previews as well.

those would be considerably more abbreviated. But number one, as with all of the youth, I'm looking forward to seeing how he'll look under a coach in Monty Williams, who can much more affectively than Dwayne Case. The Pistons, Dwayne Casey is not a good coach. I know I've said that many of you. You know how I feel about Dwayne Casey. Not a good coach. Very below average coach at the NBA level.

I think he came in and had one coach of the year with the Raptors. I think Nick Nour said a lot to do with that because he was running the offense. For those of you don't know the background, after the. The Raptors lost in 2017 for the second time to the Cavaliers. No shame in that. You know, that was a strong team. That was the off-season, excuse me, postseason in which the Warriors, well, the Warriors lost zero games, I think, on the way to the finals,

and the Cavaliers lost only one. But nonetheless, the Raptors were not running a modern offense at that point. Masayu Jiri, who I used to think very highly of, and back then I think was one of the best managers in the NBA set. We're moving to a new, more modern offense. offense and Nick Nurse, you get to run it. Dwayne Casey is not a good offensive mind to say the least. I will give him a little bit of credit that he did learn a little bit from that and with the Pistons ran a more efficient offense. But Nick Nurse got to formulate the offense.

The Raptors had their best season ever. Dwayne Casey won coach of the year. Fell victim to his typically ruinous foibles in the postseason where the cavaliers, after a very, very hard fought down to the wire, down to the final few minutes, seven-game win against the Pacers and before the exact same sort of win against the postings. The Celtics ate the first-seated Raptors for lunch in four games, two of which are blots. So I think that Casey, I'll talk a little bit more about Casey. Put it this way, Casey was not a good coach. Money Williams is a good coach.

I'm looking forward to the Pistons having their first good coach in goodness, like 15 years. So it'd be nice to see what happens with Duren under a coach who can effectively use guys to their strengths. Also doesn't hate vertical spacing like Dwayne Casey did. Dwayne Casey made less use of vertical spacing than any coach I've seen in the NBA in the recent past, no matter who he had. And he had some strong vertical spaces, Duren included. So I think we'll see him more effectively used as a finisher.

Again, as a vertical spacer, I think we'll see more in terms of playmaking. And just really looking forward to seeing how he improves on defense. And there's just a lot to be excited about. I'd say that Duren, in terms of his NBA floor, could be a strong backup center. And I think he's likely or much likely to reach his floor than to, excuse me, to reach his ceiling.

than fall to his floor. I think his ceiling, again, is, you know, somewhere in the, you know, six to ten range or five to ten range in terms of centers in the league, a guy who could easily make some all defensive teams and is going to be just a strong finisher, whatever else, on offense. So on the season, given where Durham is coming in as a very, very young, you know, raw player and one who came in and actually did, you know, a bang-up job as the starting center. He did a decent job by any measure. You know, I'm going to give him an A-minus, you know, just based on what's expected of him. You want to get an A, you're going to come in and blow everybody away.

But I was very, very happy with what we saw from Duren. And I think we'll see a significant leap next season. So just moving on to some other things. Number one, Duren and Stewart. Now, I know that we all love these really hardworking physical defenders on the floor for the Pistons. I mean, that there's just such a part of the Detroit Pistons ethos. And that was definitely Darn and Stewart. And one thing that I've liked in the Troy Weaver era, it's like, okay, no matter what season it's been, you can come in and you can win against the Pistons.

But, you know, hopefully it's going to hurt a little bit, even if you do win. I remember in Weaver's first season, maybe it was his second, but I think it was his first. Like J-1 Brown and Jason Tatum came in, and they had good games against this one game. They had strong performances against the Pistons, but they openly complained about how hard they were played by the Pistons defense. And you just love to hear that. And Stuart and Duren, those are two very physical, very strong, very hardworking guys. And they're fun to watch in that capacity. As a duo, they were not good.

The offense was, when they were on the four together, the offense was a great deal worse. And the defense, a great deal worse than baseline for the team. And even the defense was a little bit worse. I've been over several times. Isaiah Stewart is just extremely limited as an offensive player at power forward. He's got his limitations to be sure at center as well, but I think that they are significantly more impactful when he's playing power forward. And also how his very good defense at center becomes pretty average and, again, the limited defense at power forward. So as fun as it is to have, I don't know,

this is the term that comes to mind, though I kind of hate it because it just reminds me of the, you know, the Mighty Ducks trilogy. And if you're a hockey fan, if you become a hockey fan later in life, or if you just have never seen that trilogy, you know, go watch a couple of the movies, not because they're good, just because they're completely hilarious in the context of actual hockey. If you don't know anything about hockey, it's like, oh, wow, awesome. And of course, you know, they're kids movies. Obviously, they're not going to, you know, you're not thinking, oh, my God, they're so unrealistic. It's just funny.

So it's as fun as it is to have kind of like a Bruse Brothers sort of combo out there. I just, I don't see, of course, Stuart is the long-term power forward for this, the starting power forward with this team in general. I do see Duren as the long-term starting center. So, yeah, the duo I don't think is ever likely to be strong. They're fun, but they really struggled a lot when they were out there on the floor together. And like I've said, Stewart is kind of like a backup combo, big, so to speak, who can play a little bit of power forward if necessary,

but you're really going to play them primarily a backup center. I mean, I'm perfectly content there, especially with everything else he brings to the team in terms of intangibles and off the courts. Okay, so that'll be it on, I mean, we've gone over everybody in terms of players who are going to be on the roster next season. Well, players who played last season are going to be on the roster next season. Let's talk a little bit about the dearly departed players from the roster, i.e. those who are, you know, who are not going to be with a piss since next season. First one, Hamad O Diallo, who remains a free agent. Diallo is just a, I mean, where he finds himself right now is a reflection on what the NBA is these days.

the NBA has been rendered down to a science. You see this happening in the NHL as well, where if you can't skate, you know, if you're not a good skater, it didn't, you know, it wasn't 10 years ago, even five years ago. Or like the last time of the Red Wings won the Stanley Cup that was, I'm sad to say, 15 years ago, it was fine to be a below average skater. For some guys, it was fine to be like a pretty bad skater, though at that point, with the post-lockout changes, you know, things were different than they were before the lockout, where you could be a horrendous skater like Jason Allison at Forward and still be viable.

But these days, if you're a bad skater, it's an enormous weakness. And it's just like as the games became more and more scientific, basically, it became not okay to be this and not okay to be that. And you have to have this skill and you have to have that skill. And if you don't, well, then tough luck. I mean, just the necessities for being an actual NHL player become higher and higher. you know, just what you have, the strengths you have to have and the weaknesses you have to not have. And the same thing happened in the NBA.

You know, it was happening around the same time, started earlier in the spacing and efficiency era, where it was like, okay, as a power forward, you can't just be a smaller center anymore. You have to be able to shoot. And all those power forwards, you were basically smaller centers, either became shooters, moved to center, or we're out of the week. I don't know. For some reason, guys like Kevin Sarifen come to minds. I'm not sure why, probably because I played a lot of NBA 2K-13.

and of course he didn't make it. In any case, he moved to center and he didn't make it. But, yeah, that was just one example. It's like you have to be able to shoot at every position. But center now, even at center, if you can't shoot, that's a weakness, and you'd better be good at everything else, you know, if you can't shoot. And as a perimeter player, it's like, well, either you have an offense built around you and you're a superstar or if you can't shoot or, you know,

you're probably headed out of the league because that's just too critical of a weakness. And DLO, who is extremely athletic, who despite being a non-shooter, you know, which makes it quite a bit more difficult to attack the rim because guys would just sag off of you, is still strong in attacking the rim. You know, he's, I think, worse on defense than he appears because, yeah, he is strong in terms of getting to the passing lanes and getting steals. The vast, you know, the majority of defense is just making the right breeds. And, I mean, like, lockdown defenders don't really exist in the NBA anymore because it's not really a one-on game. it's a team defense game. Like one-on-one defense is very important. But team defense, you know, being a good team defender is also very important. I mean, it's tough to even stay on one guy with all the emphasis that's put on all-ball screens just in terms of getting more

advantageous matchups. But, you know, Diovo is just not good at making the right reads, rotations, et cetera. I'd say he's got, Mark, he's got solidly below average defensive IQ. So I'd say he's a minus on that end and on offense, of course. He's a huge minus because he can't shoot. It's like a huge minus. That is, an enormous weakness is a complete non-shooter. And at this stage of his career, where he's been in the NBA for five seasons, he's actually, you know, you could argue a little bit worse as a shooter than he was when he got to the Pistons back in, I think, prior to the deadline, of course, in 2021.

Yeah, I mean, he's no better as a shooter than he was in college. And he was coming into the NBA as a non-shooter where it's like, you know, he's drafted in the second round as an extremely athletic, but raw player. If you can shoot, cool, you're going to absolutely stick in the league, never improved as a shooter. these roster spots in the NBA are an extremely scarce resource, and teams are going to want to be using them on other guys who can hopefully help in the now, if they're called upon,

or guys who have discernible and real and honest to goodness upside. Or there's a third category of guys who just provide great veteran leadership, and DLO unfortunately does not fall into any of those three categories. Perhaps he has just been unwilling that we haven't heard anything about it, of course, DLO is not a hot topic amongst basketball insiders, but maybe he just hasn't been willing to take on, you know, a very small role or have to fight for his minutes. If so, I think he's making a foolish decision because he want to stick in the NBA, period. I mean, it's not a given for anybody.

Well, certainly not a given for him. So if he's been offered a roster spot, like, dude, take it, just take it. Who knows if he has been. He remains a free agent. I'd say 50-50. He gets signed prior to the season. Maybe he gets a try-out deal. But he's going to be in a position where he's coming in with no one.

minutes most likely and has to hope for both an opportunity and that he plays well and the shooting is non-negotiable. Like, I've seen the point brought up like, oh, just play them on a like a playoff team with Yolkich, for example, where he just needs to cut and whatever. Number one, cuts are a small source of offense. You know, the very best forwards in the NBA averaged about two and a half points on cuts last season. NBA defenses are very good at defending against those. but it's more just playoff teams don't want even less than non-playoff teams

I mean they really don't want incomplete players on a playoff team you don't want it's like oh hey here's this guy with this really big weakness but we can compensate for him you don't especially as a contender you don't want to have to compensate for anybody I mean that's it's just a hitch in your offense

so in any event Diallo was a disappointing I mean it was a disappointment for me if he'd been able to shoot I think he could have been a guy in like the mid-to-high teens and points per game. Like if he can shoot, you can't leave him open. I mean, not only can he space the four and provide that high-efficient, you know, and engage in that very high-efficiency form of offense that is the spot-up three,

but also, you know, you got to guard him relatively closely, and he can blow past you, and he's strong in the drive. But he didn't get there. He got two years. It would be a little bit of an understatement to say he didn't improve at all. And just the downward impact, I mean, he lost his minutes because give those to other players who might have a chance of improving or can at least provide something in the offense. I mean, he fell out of the rotation for that reason and the team that had the least wins in the

league. So best of luck to him. Cory Joseph, whom I think caught a lot of flack for just for the fact that he was around and he was a player, of course, who would not feature, and rebuilding seasons would not feature in the team's long-term plans by any means, who of course was not particularly good on the courts, got a lot of minutes. Like started next to K. for about half of Cade's rookie season, after Cillian definitively proved that he just could not do it. And in that season, he was starting so that Cade would not have to handle the ball on every possession. He was the only other actually qualified handler on a team. You know, he was like halfway decent at, you know, attacking off the dribble, a solid enough passer,

could also space the floor, which Cillian couldn't do. So this was to spare rookie Cade from, oh, hey, you know, you have to do everything as a handler. And basically it was because Corey Joseph was the best option on a team that had far too little in the way of ball handling. And all Corey Joseph, 100% of the time, he went out there, he worked hard, he did exactly what was asked of him. I think that deserves to be recognized. His teammates, by all accounts, loved him. He's a great locker room guy. He's a very solid veteran leader.

Is he a good NBA point card at this point? No, and he hasn't been for some time. He really hasn't been a very good point guard, a very good player throughout the entirety of his career. but now on the older side and on the smaller side in a league that really punishes. And, you know, he works hard on defense. And, you know, he might grate out is roughly average there. But in a league that increasingly punishes guys who just aren't very tall, I just, excuse me, I just think that he caught maybe, like, I mean, Casey put him out there at times,

and at times he got a lot of minutes at times at which he wasn't a good player, then he isn't a young player. but he was in some situations the best option. And last season, basically he only got minutes when it made sense for him to get minutes. Of course, after Kay went down, that became more of a thing. But I feel like Corey Joseph was the kind of guy who was perfectly, perfectly content to sit down and say, well, the youth of the future of this team, if me not playing minutes is what's best for them, then I'm happy, happy to do that. It wouldn't have been his choice anyway, but some guys would not be quite as happy to do it.

So Gojo came in, worked hard, did exactly what was asked of him. and, you know, was by all accounts a great veteran leader. Cool. Thank you for your service. Good luck in Golden State. RJ Hampton, who came in and got, you know, a very good chance, a very good opportunity to play minutes on a team, of course, a bad team that would afford him the opportunity to play minutes and did not really make the best of it, to say the least.

He can look at his three-point percentage and say, oh, okay, he's an okay shooter. Unfortunately, outside of that really big game he had against the Nets, he was a pretty bad shooter. He doesn't really pass the ball. He's got very, very, very limited upside as a passer. And in today's NBA, you, in Western, just like the most dedicated of dedicated play finishers. And even those guys, you want them to be able to attack closeouts at some degree and make the right pass.

They just, as a perimeter player, you have to be able to make these basic passes these days off the drive. That is just another thing that has become a requirement in the NBA. And Hampton has very, very limited upset as a playmaker. He is not good at attacking the rim. He is pretty bad on defense. This is a guy who just came in, was given his opportunity. And if he played well, probably, or maybe he could have stuck with the team

or gotten like a minimum contract elsewhere and didn't capitalize on it, which is imagine why he remains unsigned. You know, also being like, I don't know, like 180 pounds soaking wet is not very helpful unless his stated weight is considerably heavier than unless it just hasn't been updated or something. but the guy looks to be still very easy to push around at shooting guard. Though that would be, again, that would be much, much less of an issue if he were actually able to score. That it would continue to be an issue on defense.

So whatever, in any case, just came in, didn't play well. When he was waived, he put out something on Twitter like, oh, you don't have the context. Who knows what that means. But certainly nothing has come of it. So best of luck to RJ. It was only with us on the Pistons for a short time. did not capitalize. Rodney McGruder, who the business still have an open roster spot, maybe he comes in and takes that, who knows. But a guy who was pretty much just there for

veteran leadership, like Cojo, his teammates, apparently by all accounts, just absolutely love the guy, great veteran leader, great locker room guy, who occasionally would be called upon due to injuries, or because everybody else, or because just the team as a whole was doing too badly shooting to come in and shoot spot-up threes, which you did a very high percentage. Unfortunately, is one of these players who is a good three-point shooter but is bad at everything else. So definitely not an NBA player. But like Cory Joseph came in whenever he was asked, did exactly what was asked of him, did not complain at all about sitting, you know, about sitting the vast majority of the time on the bench.

Did his thing as a veteran leader. So these guys are not really going to contribute all that much on the court, but they're important for young teams. I know Isaiah Stewart came out and said, you know, you can count on Roddy McGruder. like if I had to choose one teammate to be on a desert island with, I would say Roddy McGurter, because he'll always have your back. I also remember that game a couple years ago in which he had that kind of like mini confrontation with Clay Thompson, and Clay came out and said, oh, you'll be out of the league after this season.

And hey, it was on a bad team, and he didn't really contribute on the court, but Rodney McGruder lasted two more seasons. So there. He's not like Clay Thompson, one of the greatest shooters of his generation, but in any case. So Rodney could end up still on the team. I think it's less likely, much less likely. But the Pistons lost a lot of games the last three seasons. They maintained a good locker room.

And these veterans like Corey Joseph and like Rodney McGrooter, I'm sure helped with that. And finally, Dwayne Casey, who is retired from coaching. And, you know, say this to Dwayne on the 0.000-1% chance that he's insane enough to listen to sports podcast. Like, well, what would I say to him? I don't know. Thank you for your service.

The guy ran a good locker room. The guy was solid, not perfect, but solid. for development. And it was tough to watch him as an on-court coach. There were things he was good at. There are things that should be recognized. Like I said, the keeping the locker room together. And there being no reports of locker room discord. I'm like, I don't know, say the Rockets on a team that was constantly losing games. And his players, like they have everywhere, really liking the guy. And, you know, him by all accounts being a solid development dude. There are purposes he served. I'm really looking forward to not watching him as an on-court coach, a capacity in which I think

He is extremely limited. So underrated thing going in the next season. The Pistons are replacing a poor on-court coach. To finish what I was saying earlier, I think that he was even a below-average coach coming in for the Pistons. You know, even after winning coach of the year, there was a reason he got fired. You know, he was just, the NBA is increasingly intolerant of weaknesses of any sort,

as has been growing more and more increasingly intolerant as the game again gets rendered down to a much more scientist, just as is rendered down to an extremely scientific level. And flaws are, you know, the impact of flaws, is magnified and being a bad encore coach, the impact of that is really magnified. Those flaws are much, much more damaging now. So, yeah, like I said, I mean, to his meager credit, he did focus on playing a more modern game on offense, but I mean, just the guy in terms of his ability to adapt, his degree

of imagination and innovation on offense, his late game coaching, my goodness, you know, was just straight bad. So I'm glad he's going to the front office because it seems like he's really, really, really good with young players and that the players generally like him, don't know what his role will be. Of course, that doesn't necessarily translate into doing well at whatever job they give him. But it seems like everybody says he's a great guy. And, you know, Duane, wish you the best, enjoy spending more time with your family. And, you know, hopefully you can contribute well in the front office.

And then just finally, because I've seen a certain amount of questions about this, 15th roster spots. So teams are allowed to carry 14 standard NBA contracts, excuse me, 15 standard NBA contract. that number is 20 in the offseason up until I think that remains through training camp but whatever in any case by the first day of the season you have to be down to 15 the piston's at 14 are they going to fill that 15 spots they're not required to you only have to you have to have only 14 and they might as well at this point just to leave it open for two reasons number one for flexibility sake you know if you want to if you're in a situation where you might want to take on two guys and I don't know maybe they're both useful who knows it provides a

certain amount of flexibility, a small degree for the Pistons. Number two, this roster is kind of weird and that. It doesn't really have like, oh, guys who are like, you know, like Rodney McGruder, for example, it's like, oh, you're very, very, very unlikely to play. I mean, this team doesn't really have a collection of bench warmers. You can make an argument for just about anybody to get minutes. I mean, the fact that the team is still going to be focused heavily on development as part of that. Who knows if Sasser will get minutes. Who knows if Killiam will get minutes, of course. Who knows of Joe. Excuse me. Who knows of Joe. will get minutes for the reason that he's not like the old Joe Harris, who was still below average on defense,

but was one of the really deadliest catch and shoot guys in the league. He's really slowed down as a result of his ankle injuries. Now he's a bad defender, and his mobility on offense, too, is pretty limited. But it's not like a situation in which, okay, let's add another depth guy who might play. Even at 15th roster spot, you're very, very unlikely to play. But it's like the minutes, I'd say almost assuredly will not be there. And it's also not a situation in which it's like, okay, let's add another. depth big, for example. You know, just another guy, a traditional center who is probably going to be

a below average contributor, but it's like the floor is the lowest at center of all positions. If you can come out there and finish at a high level and play like hefty. And if you're not a liability on defense, then you're still going to be a minus value player. But you know what? You can do stuff, I guess. So we'll see. If there's a 15th guy, maybe it's McGruder. So I think it's very, very likely as his time of the business is best. So in any case, this ended up being a much longer episode than I thought it would be. I thought that that would get Redurin pretty quickly and that this would end up being a pretty short episode and we've gotten to around 50 minutes. So in any event, folks, as always, want to thank you for listening.

Catch you next week's episode.