Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 17: Drafting for the Pistons, Part 2: Anthony Edwards, Deni Avdija, Isaac Okoro, Devin Vassell, and the importance of the wing positions

Episode Date: August 14, 2020

This episode, the second in a three-part series on potential draftees for the Pistons in October, profiles Anthony Edwards, Deni Avdija, Isaac Okoro, and Devin Vassell. It also discusses the importance of the wing positions, at which the Pistons have lacked sufficient talent for more than a decade.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, everybody. My name is Mike. I'm here with Tommy. Welcome back to another episode of Drive into the Basket. This will be part two of our draft previews. Today will be going over wings, that is shooting guards and small forwards. Now, elite wings these days are the NBA's unicorns, so to speak, arguably the most valuable players in the league. We're talking to long athletic swing men who can really defend up and down the lineup, who can create offense for themselves, you know, space the floor, attack the basket. You will very rarely see an NBA team win a championship with a team. that one of these there, certainly last year with Kauai, Kevin Durant, obviously before that. LeBron, though, I mean, he's transitions more to a power forward role now, but basically these are just the, and LeBron really also just transcends metas in general. He's got to play point guard this year. Whatever the case, these are extremely important players. The wing is arguably, and I would say certainly the most important place to be strong in today's NBA.

These are just those very, very versatile players who can really do it all. Pistons fans could be forgotten, excuse me, could be forgiven for really not remembering what it's like to have one of these at all. And that's because the Pistons have not had an elite wing since Rip Hamilton. And we're talking like Prime Rip Hamilton. So this is well over a decade ago. The Pistons have arguably been the weakest team in the wing in the entire NBA over the past 10 years. The two best fielded over that time span were Tashon Prince in 2010, 2011. This was just prior to his decline.

and Marcus Morris in 2015, 2016. And neither of them were particularly good. They were, for the Pistons, just conspicuous in that they were good enough. You know, they provided decent scoring on pretty mediocre efficiency, and fairly reliable defense. But the Pistons have not had a legitimate All-Star wing for a very long time. And if we were looking at really like one of those top-notch wing players, the Pistons haven't had one in 20 years.

The last one was Grant Hill. Rip Hamilton, you look at all of these going to work pistons. I mean, I'm getting a little bit off topic. I know here, but these guys were known as a five-man team of non-stars who just played extremely well together and played super hard-nosed basketball. The reality was none of these guys was really like a premier overall performer, which was fine for the time. And one of the things that made that team so beloved in the city. nonetheless, an incredibly important area of strength. And so definitely very, very well could be a focus of the business in this draft,

depending on where they fall. So we are just going to start straight out with the very likely number one overall pick in the draft, and that is Anthony Edwards. So Edwards, about 6'5, 220, 6.10 wing span. It will be about 19 at the start of the next season, just a reminder that next season, of course, we'll be starting in December instead of the usual start in October. So Edwards is just a fantastic athlete with just a battering ram body and potential star caliber scoring talent. So if you're just looking at what he brings to the table, just like I said, very, very high athletic ceiling, which is so important in the NBA these days.

It's a league. It's an incredibly athletic league in which your athletic ceiling can really determine your overall ceiling. Like, if you gave Luke Kinard, elite athleticism, you know, fantastic. The guy's probably one of, you know, the top 10 scores at his position. Unfortunately, he's not a very good athlete. That's one of the things that differentiates him so much from, say, Donovan Mitchell. You know, that'll be forever comparison. The guy is just a superb athlete. So, yeah, you've got Edwards, who is, you know, you can really score,

has the potential to score well on every level. this guy who's got all the chops necessary to attack the baskets. He's got a good looking at least, pull-up jump shot with high elevation. He's got potential, again, is a good spot-up shooter. He's flashed some ability as a step-back three-point shooter. That's a very, very underrated skill that you see on guys like Luca and Harden, not making that comparison. But just saying, I mean, if you're a threat to step back to the three-point line, it makes it that much more difficult to guard you. And it gives you that much more ability to blow past your defender because they've got to play very closely.

you know, has all the potential. He's an excellent transition player, just given his explosiveness, his speed, and also pretty good core vision. And explosive dribbler, a decent passer that's still a really work in progress. And just given his body type and his wingspan, he's actually pretty well suited to defense,

at least three positions, though he's really fairly mistake-prone at this point. Tommy, what do you see as his strength? Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you should. just said. The most impressive thing to me is the way that he uses his body to get to the rim and what he does once he's there. His finishing is kind of unique to me. Like it's not always power jams, despite the fact that he's very strong and can elevate and throw it down really hard. A lot of what he does is like he'll get to the rim, he'll absorb contact and then on his way down,

he'll like put up a shot. And he's able to do that because he's so strong and he's able to brush off that contact and that is kind of what he needs to do a lot more of what he gets calm to a lot or not calm to but the way people will describe him as a score not a shooter and the reason is because he's really a lot better as like a downhill score a guy going to the basket and he's able to do that with his three-point shooting and his shooting in general but he's really the kind of guy that you want to design an offense where he can get to the rim as much as possible. And that's kind of the weakness of his game, really, is his shot selection. I felt like he took too many jumpers, considering that he could have gone strong to the

rim at times. But he feels like he needs to be able to shoot the three ball so that opponents will go under screens. And this is one of the things that solidifies him as the number one overall. pick for me, at least for the Pistons. There's a really nice series done by Mike Schmitz of ESPN, and it's where he sits down with the prospects one-on-one, and they analyze their own film and highlights and things that they can improve on. And Edwards was by far my favorite, because Edwards was so honest and so, so good at critiquing his own game. A lot of times,

like before Mike even said what he was going to, like, comment. on Edwards knew. Like, you're showing me this clip. This is what you're about to say. He was really, really good at critiquing his own game. And I have a lot of, I have high hopes on him learning to play a better role in the NBA. I think the key with him, for the Pistons anyway, would be for Casey to kind of encourage him to play better defense and taking the ball out of his hands a little bit.

I feel like he was given too much of a role at Georgia, and it kind of led to him playing into some of his bad habits, where he was, like, taking bad shots or, like, instead of passing out of a double team or, like, getting cut off in the post, instead of passing out to somebody on the perimeter, he would take a mid-range shot. I don't know. How do you feel about that?

I agree. I mean, his percentages in the NCAA were terrible. They're not terrible, but very bad. 40% from the field and 29% from 3. And yeah, as you said, his biggest problem was shot selection. The guy took a lot of really difficult shots. A lot of them were contested jumpers, whether pull-up jumpers on which he did not do very well at all.

He was not efficient at all from between the arc and the paint. Or, yeah, like I said, just bad three-point jumpers. And part of this can be chalked down to the team on which he played since he was responsible for all of the creation on that team is he'd be played on a very very overall weak offensive roster but part of it like you said he just settled for jump shots when he could have gone to the basket and that's something that could change he's got all the tools he needs to be good to be a good score on the way of the basket and that's that's of course you always want to see a guy maximize his his talents but also it's just a super important skill at any level

in basketball to be able to score at the basket so yeah definitely needs to work in a shot selection, weren't to pass when necessary, attack the basket. I think when you look at a shooting percentage, it's different from, say, like, Lamello. I think Edwards definitely has the touch as a shooter, definitely has the touch as a score.

Definitely a ball stopper. That definitely needs to change. I mean, you just lose so much in the way of options in the NBA if a player has to be on the ball. It's a little different in some cases. Like, obviously, Yonis. give him the ball. You know, like, I mean, but we're talking,

we're talking guys who, we're talking a guy who's about to win a second straight MVP, like almost undoubtedly. So if you have enough talents, you can buck it, like I said, before you can buck the trends. But in general, you don't want ball stoppers on your team. You want guys who are able to give up the ball, score off the ball, or willing to give up the ball,

and so on and so forth. Otherwise, it's just really losing a lot of offensive options. That's another thing about Edwards, It's just, he's not the greatest passer. It's hard to tell if that's the product of just kind of poor conditioning or just outright, a mediocre court vision. Maybe that can be fixed. Maybe it can't.

It's hard to say, as you noted, not the greatest on the pick and roll because he's not reliable enough as a shooter yet. Also, he's just, he's not the greatest at finding the open man. And that could actually make it a significant, it could be kind of like a splitting point in terms of what he becomes in the NBA. Like, if he's just a kid at this point who is yet to develop really as a passer, who has the core envision he needs and has the ability and has the ability to surpass, which is basically has the tools necessary to become a good passer, then fantastic.

You know, if you're a great score and you're also a good passer, I mean, you've got absolute superstar potential. If you're a ballstopper with media for court vision, things sort of change quite a bit. Like, you have to be played around, but you're limiting the offensive options. So that could really be a significant determinant what his overall ceiling is. And I think it's also worth mentioning that there are, have then, some questions about his drive, not to the level of, say, James Wiseman, but it's kind of like people ask, well, Anthony Edwards is incredibly athletic and extremely talented. Why doesn't he really have the drive to takeover games?

Like, he could really be just flattening people in a way that he is not. it's not along the lines of this guy care about basketball or is this guy willing to work hard since you know the answer to those questions i think as far as from everything i've read everything i've seen is yes it's just that he doesn't quite yet have that killer instinct maybe it's an issue of confidence who knows either way i mean if we want to look at translatable skills i'd say he's flashed all around talent on offense and if you have a lead athleticism that's got a really good chance that talent to translate into the NBA. If you're a guy with very unremarkable athleticism,

then you get to the NBA where, like I said, it's just an incredibly athletic league, and you might not show out quite as well with those skills. Now let's get to applicability to the Pistons. I'd say certainly this is the guy I would most like see drafted by Detroit. I think he's got, in my opinion, the highest ceiling of him in the draft. He's certainly not the passer that, say, well, is, but he's enormously more athletic, which again is such an asset, and most likely has a

tremendously higher ceiling as a score. And those guys, those highly athletic guys on the wing who can create offense for themselves are just everything in the league. Yeah, I definitely agree with you. He's my number one pick, and I see him as probably the second best player on a championship team. And I say that because he is only 6'5, and I do think that there's a certain amount of risk with him because his percentages aren't quite there yet. Him being the second best player or maybe even first best on a championship level team is really contingent on his percentages increasing. I feel like he could easily, he only shot 29.4% from three this season,

but like you said, his shot looks good. And I think part of it is that, yeah, he was clearly the best player on that Georgia team. And he was like the source of most of their offense. and he does take tough looks, and he takes shots from pretty much anywhere. And I kind of mentioned that in like a negative way earlier, but at the same time,

that's kind of what makes him a more dynamic scoring threat. That's how you get players who need to be guarded at all three levels. And being a threat in the mid-range, it's going to help him get to the rim, but he needs to want to get to the rim. There was a play that I saw. This was in the mission, the Maui invitational against Michigan State was,

I'm sure if you're an MSU fan, you probably remember him kind of taking over that game. And he was in transition, and he probably could have gone strong to the rim for an easy two, but he took the three. And he ended up hitting it. But it's interesting to me that he has this kind of aversion to, not a version, but like,

there are more opportunities for him to get to the rim, and he's not taking a lot of them. Like it seems like he settles for jumpers. way more than somebody as strong as he is, should be doing. So I like comparing him to Donovan Mitchell, who's not, he's not the best shooter out there, but he's a very athletic player and he's good enough that allows him to get to the rim. But at the same time, he could, if his percentages aren't good or if he's trying to do too much, he could be Dion Waiters, honestly.

We've seen Dion kind of reduce his role with the Lakers and he's shooting. really well. But when he was trying to do too much, he would play into his bad habits and that would really hurt his percentages and his overall impact and value. I think he needs to limit his tough twos, focus on upping his three-point percentage. But I think he could easily get his shot into the mid-30s just by having better teammates around him and maybe focusing on upping his catch and shoot because I don't see him as a lead ball handler. I would like him to be like the guy getting like the second most touches on a team just so he's not playing so much into his bad habits. I think I do think he is.

Oh, sorry, God. Oh, I was just going to say, I think he could be like your go-to crunch time score if you need to just because he's so good at getting off his own shot. But he needs to just up those percentages. Yeah, I'd say definitely. I think percentages need to be viewed in some cases within context. like you and I were just talking about this earlier before the podcast that Luca almost just 31% from 3. On paper that looks really bad and they're not really bad,

but not good at all. And it's like for a superstar, you think, wow, that's not a very good percentage at all until you look at the fact that he's taking like 80% of his threes or pull-ups, which means, you know, stepbacks or just he's not taking many spot-up threes. I mean, to be fair, he hasn't really done great on Ketka, in Gatshut 3s in general. but we got to look at the environment in which they are taking these shots.

And Edwards, again, not the greatest spot-up three-point shooter at Georgia either, though I think he certainly has the touch. Just so many of his shots had to be self-created, especially from three-point range. So I think he's got it within him to be that go-to score, to be the number one option. Of course, that would be contingent upon him developing as a passer and him just maturing overall as a player. it's one who takes better shots, takes the right shots. And I don't think that's out of the question by any means.

And in that case, you line him up next to the point guard, who is a good passer, and can shoot threes. So I agree with the comp to Donovan Mitchell a little bit. I think that Edwards actually has a significantly higher ceiling as a score, as a score, not significantly higher, but higher ceiling. I think he's got more raw offensive talent than Donovan Mitchell. And don't get me wrong, Donovan's a good score. You know, it creates a lot of his own offense. and he's, I think, this season, close to 25 points on, I think, 56% for a shooting. So very good.

Not elite, but very good. I think I wouldn't look at waiters as his lower, as is for. I would look at Andrew Wiggins, kind of wasted talent, like really high, just a great degree of athleticism and just a ton of raw talents who just doesn't have the right mindset to capitalize on it. and instead is just an endlessly inefficient score and a lazy defender and a guy where it's like this guy could actually be a really good player if he actually had the proper attitude. I can be a really good player, but it just hasn't happened. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah.

So Edwards, I'd say, like I said, for me, would be the number one overall. I think I don't remember who would be your number one if you were to select somebody over Edwards with the number one overall pick. Would that be? If it wasn't Edwards? Yeah, because you said, did you say you think he could be the first or second best player? Who do you think would be the best player in the draft? I said that he could be the number one or the number two option on a championship team,

but he is my number one overall pick. Okay, gotcha. All right. So from there, why don't we move on to Isaac O'Roro? So, Coro, I know Tommy, you do not like him at all. I'm not a big fan either. No. So he's six foot six, two 25, six, eight and a half wing span.

will be a little bit under 20 at the start of the next season. Akoro is a highly athletic, multipositional defender whose biggest potential weakness lies in his wonky shot. There are honestly some guys who never learned to shoot, and it's kind of concerning to see these mechanics from somebody, you know, even somebody as young as Okoro. So you look at his pros. He's an excellent athlete, very explosive, very good leaper.

And, you know, great mobility, though. On the anthropometric end of things, it's wing-span it. only about two inches longer than his height is nothing special. So on offense, decent slasher, decent cutter, pretty good in transition, just because of how athletic he is. And, I mean, the really special thing about him is his defense. He projects his, is a highly switchable, as I said, very multi-positional defender who could probably defend four positions and may even do a decent job at defending centers. The guy's just very strong, he's very quick, he's tenacious, he's just a ferocious defender. Really hard work in a team player.

Now, as Khan, of course, can be summed up the one thing, very, very strong. weak offensively. It was very raw. Cannot create for himself. His shot mechanics suck. He's a bad free throw shooter at only 67%. And some guys just don't have the touch. Some guys, you know, you can look at guys and say, okay, well, they could improve and that's true. But I feel like you kind of look at them in the NCAA and you're not always going to be able to judge this right. But some guys just really don't look like they have it. I know this is definitely a majorly premature judgment.

and it could wind up being completely wrong. But there is just a risk is there with Okoro that he never develops into a decent shooter. Some players just work very hard and they never develop it. And that lack of utility as a score, and particularly as a shooter, can be the kids of death worry at the NBA level. For anybody outside of center,

and even at center these days, being a crappy score is a problem. So I would say in a better draft, Acora would probably be looking to the teens. In this draft, he's definitely going to be drafted, almost definitely going to be drafted. top 10. But in say last year's draft, I think you look at the guy and you say, well, yeah, he's probably a notch above, uh, thibel, just in terms of his strength. But, uh, you know,

premier prospect in the draft, not really. So, uh, I would say in terms of translatable skills, I'd say his defense will translate. You know, he's got the instincts in the body, it's unnecessary, but just the offense is such a question mark. What do you think? I mean, I, I already know you agree with me on this. Yeah. You got anything to add? I mean, he got a lot of his points, like really good cuts, but I see a lot of what we saw in kind of Bruce Brown where we like him because he's a hard worker.

He's a very likable person, especially on defense. So you can see how hard he's working. But he just doesn't have the touch. And I don't want to start a rebuild with a guy who's right off the bat, going to be fit dependent. I'm not going to bank on the idea that he's going to fix his three-point shot, even in like a catch-and-shoots situation

because that's what he was doing at Auburn. They would give him the ball for the catch-and-shoot and sometimes he'd hit, but more often than not, it was a miss, and a lot of them were bad misses, and that's kind of a lot of the concern there, that he's not going to fix his shot. And I don't want the Pistons to,

you know, for all the talk that we did in the last episode about, you know, the inherent value of playing five guys who can shoot. I don't want a small forward who can't shoot, who's just there to bring, you know, switching defensive presence. I don't think that guy's worth nearly as much as a guy who can play offense but has trouble on defense.

I think you can hide a lot of, a lot of like defensive issues was with just a good defensive scheme. I wouldn't be surprised if he fell a lot lower than the mocks, because I think the NBA front office has placed more value on shooting than a lot of these guys who do these mock drafts. Because we saw this last year with Nasir Little, and he was kind of, he was pretty firmly in like the end of the lottery,

which is where I think O'Coro would have been last year as well. He dropped. What's that? Yeah, he dropped all the way to 25 to Portland. And I don't know how he's done there since then, but... Not well. I would stay away from him. I don't think cutting and good defense are enough to warrant a top nine pick in today's league.

Yeah, I would say, I don't know if I would compare him to Nasir Whittle, just because I think there were some question marks. about Little's attitude. I don't think it was projected as quite as strong as a defender. But, yeah, I, of course, agree with you overall. I think that for Pistons fans, it is very tempting to look at these strong, multipositional defenders and say, you know, Detroit basketball in law, it's true. Absolutely.

That ethos, so to speak, was the driving force behind the three championships that have been won by the organization. I mean, that was in a very different time. Very, very different, of course. You know, it's been about 30 years since the bad boys won their second championship. And it's been more than 15 years since they go into work business. One there is just the NBA has changed so much. Not only in terms of rules and those have changed significantly, like in 2005,

those the changes, the prohibition of hand-checking and just the overall weakening of defense was a big change. and that really devalued defense, so to speak. And, I mean, I've said this before on the podcast. It was fun back then to watch the Pistons, just eviscerate people on defense. If you're a fan of any other team, it was incredibly boring to watch. You know, nobody likes going in and watching teams and watching their teams score like 65 points. Like, it's not fun to, you know, if your team is playing the defense, like I said, it's great. But otherwise, it's really boring.

That's one of the reasons the NBA did it. It's one of the reasons the NBA made the changes as well. in 2018 that emphasizes freedom of movement. It's like more scoring. Fans like to watch more scoring. There are those of us who really like the very methodical aspects of the game and the very mechanical aspects rather of the game. But a lot of the casual fans,

and there's nothing wrong with being a casual fan, but a lot of the casual fans on defense are just waiting for their team to go back on offense. So basically, if you have to pick between, and I know I've said this before on the podcast as well, probably more than a few times. If you have to pick between a great defense and a mediocre offense, or great defense and a mediocre defense, excuse me, great offense, mediocre defense, you go with a great offense and mediocre defense 100 times out of 100, and there are no ifs and thoughts about

that. And it's just offense is supreme in the NBA, and that's probably not going to change. It's just the way it is. It's been growing in that direction, just by the evolution of the league since 2000. Since the changes in 2005, and the league just stepped in a couple years ago. and aided in that. So you can have a score, you can have a valuable player who can shoot,

excuse me, who can score is a good score, and absolutely can't play defense. It's much, much harder to be that valuable if you're the player who cannot score and plays excellent defense. So I've got to agree with what you said. The Pistons should not be starting rebuild by investing in somebody who may never become

a reliable score at the NBA level. You know, particularly as the ceiling could easily be excellent defense and decent offense. The Pistons need these scores. They just absolutely need these scores. Gallagacacacoro is somebody whom you pick when you've already got the score is in place, and you're like, okay, well, either we can stand to have him not do that well, or we really feel like he could develop a decent three-point shooter,

and that's all we need out of him on top of his defense. So I kind of had trouble finding a comparable ceiling or floor, just because there aren't really, like, I don't want to say Roberson is his floor. And Roberson came back and may actually be a decent three-point shooter now. Of course, that's very premature to say that even might be, but who knows, his shot looks a lot better, I guess. But Roberson is still, you know, at his best, could not attack the basket in the way that Akoro could in the NCAA,

and Okoro wasn't really even very good in the NCAA to attack in the basket. So it's tough for me to find a comp. I just, I think his floor is borderline bust. His floor is like the end of a rotation player, who's just an excellent defender on a team that can maybe stand to have a non-shooter on the floor. Yeah, I don't know if Okoro's value comes from just guys who like, value defense a lot more. Like, you watch them dominate weaker players in the NCAA, and that's, I'll say this,

judging guys who are going to dominate with athleticism is something that I'm not very good at. Because it's such a, it's like such a small difference that can make a really big difference on the court. And I just, but I still just, because he can't shoot, I don't think he's ever going to be a passable offensive player. I think he's going to be the kind of guy that you pull him off the floor when you need a bucket rather than wanting him out there because you need to stop. I don't think his good defense in today's league is going to outweigh his negative on offense. Even guys like Sveemkeye, Luke, who obviously much more limited player, he still brings

value when he's not in the play on the offensive end because he is a three-point threat. Whereas when you have guys like Akoro who even if you park him in a corner he can't hit it you just need to keep an eye on him keep him from cutting to the basket you sag off him and that makes it easier for the defender to provide help defense if another player goes inside so guys like Akoro I think they really benefit from their highlights where it's like their athleticism really shines through he's shown some nice footwork getting to the room he has good touch but I feel like he really benefits from his highlights and that can be to see especially you have to contextualize the highlights with the percentages and that's how a guy like the coro who's shooting 28.6 percent is so has a lot less value than a guy like edwards who's like a percent higher edwards is taking much harder shots he's taking a lot more of them and he's doing it as like the lead offensive weapon whereas akoro he's kind of like he's just not really a factor on the offensive end if he's not timing a cut to the basket really well. So even in his interview with Mike Smith, he says he studies Igadala, Kauai, and Jalen Brown,

and that sounds great. And you're like, oh, that's great because none of those guys were particularly good shooters in college. And they all up their percentages once they got to the league. But they are the exceptions, not the rules. I mean, there's, I mean, we saw it with Stanley Johnson, like guys who. just can't put their shot together, they fall out of the league pretty quickly. Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, Stanley also sucked at every other aspect of offense.

Yeah, he was not the athlete that Decora was. Oh, no, not at all. Yeah, Stanley was not a very good athlete at all. I think he was a guy who did great at being, you know, 6-6-240, I think. It just allows you to completely bully almost anybody at the high school or NCAA level. But he wasn't a good leaper. he wasn't explosive. You know, it was whatever the case.

I mean, I think Okoro, if he works out, if he fixes his shot, will be the number four offensive option on a good team. And that's just not what the Pistons are looking for right now. So I would say that he's, I would guess that he is not even on their radar. I mean, who knows? Obviously, who knows? We've heard it said that Troy Weaver really likes guys who are super athletic and hardworking. But I got to think, I mean, the Pistons is really,

who've had over the past decade, I haven't done the math, but I think, at least in terms of scoring efficiency, I think maybe the worst in the NBA over that span. Certainly over the final, over the four years, the entire four years of, he who shall not be named,

the former coach and the team. The Pistons were the only team in the league to rank in the bottom five every year in true shooting percentage. So it's just, defense hasn't been the issue for the Pistons. Not that they've been a great defensive team, but it's like you said,

scheme, you can run a good, a good defense without any standout defenders. You absolutely cannot run a good offense without standout offensive players. You just can't. You cannot run a good offense

without good shooters, period. I mean, you need the shooters and you need to go-to scores. So the Pistons just have been sunk time and time again by inadequate talent

on the offensive end, added to by bad coaching, but the Pistons just have just never had that offensive. talent. I mean, the best they got over the past decade was early on in 2017, 2018, when Jackson did well enough, Drummond had his role and wasn't taking bad shots. It wasn't good, but he wasn't taking bad shots anymore. Tobias was doing pretty well, Bradley was doing pretty well, and Stanley for about a month

and about a month there was, you know, was reasonably efficient. And that's not good enough. It's not anywhere near good enough. And though they got Griffin and he did really well, the next season, the offense was a gigantic and utter complete mess because the team had, well, I mean, it's worth noting the team had zero strength in the wing. I mean, that's part of it, but also just team not a shooter. So whatever the case, yeah, I think the Pistons really just need to be looking to offense. And I think that's what we will do. So I move on to number three of four is Denny of, excuse me, Denny Abdiya. Just note in the pronunciation, there is no J sound in Hebrew. So it's Avdia, not Evdija. So Avdia is.

is a saffy versatile score and his crafty passer with the very good basketball IQ, but pretty bad athleticism at the NBA level. So he's a guy who at least at the Euroleague level, and just remind you're a year league is the second best league in the NBA, excuse me, second best league in the world, but it's still a significant cut goal of the NBA, particularly in terms of the athletic standard. Like I'll repeat it again, the NBA is an incredibly athletic league. So he's a guy who scores and creates offense for others using creativity and vision rather than brute force. Decent touch is a shooter, though thus far pretty inconsistent. There have been promising signs, particularly how he ended the season in the Israeli League,

which was pretty recent. I think he was the youngest ever MVP in the Israeli League, not nearly as impressive as Luca being the MVP of the Euro League, the entire year of league at age 19, but nonetheless, you know, that's a promising sign. So he's a good overall handler, pretty crafty reaching the basket, though that'll be harder in the NBA with much more difficult defense. And his defense, though, he doesn't have the greatest lateral mobility. It's, you know, it's got pretty good footwork. He's got good instincts, and then he's a hard worker there.

Overall, good talent, and he'll enter the league with, you know, fairly well developed, but Not entirely. There are still some gaps in his game. I know, Tommy, you're feeling particularly bad about his shooting, which definitely would be a big gap. He has many consistent so far. Yeah, so there's a lot of potential year with Denny, especially if he puts it all together, but there are a few red flags. His free throw percentage is low, and there are obviously concerns of his athleticism and whether that will translate. This year, he played in Euroleague and the Israeli League, and he shot under 60% from the free throw line in both of them. those. And that's concerning because a lot of people believe that free throw percentage is a good

indicator of whether a jump shot will translate in terms of like whether the shooting touch is real. And in 26 Euro League games, he shot 27.7% from three on less than two attempts per game, but he only started five of those games. And Euro League is, it's the tougher league. Those games ended earlier this year in March, though. The Israeli League just concluded a few weeks ago. And his percentages were a little bit better there. His free throw percentage actually dropped to 56% versus 59 in EuroLeague. And the mechanics look fine. I don't know what the issue is there, but his three ball, his three percentage rose to 35% on four attempts in his increased role on his way to MVP of the Israeli League. So the concern with his shot not translating,

If that shot doesn't translate and he doesn't figure to be the most athletic guy in the NBA, then his passing is going to take a hit. And then if he's not passing because he can't shoot well and he's not the most athletic, what is he at that point? You know, what are the chances of him being a high-impact player or even a rotation player at that point? I don't know how his catching shoot numbers are going to look. He did a fair amount of ball handling with Maccabi. and I don't think that at that point, I don't know if I'm very high on him.

I have him like seventh. The other thing is I've seen him get a lot of comparisons to Luca, and I don't see that either. I don't know who to compare him to, but it's not Luca. I see Luca with a lot more shiftingness to his game and a lot more like finesse. Luca doesn't, Luke is not the most athletic guy either, but he works around. it with just really good ball control, really good stepbacks. What are your thoughts on that? I would say to Luca Comps come of Luca being the most, being of kind of a similar

archetype of not being particularly athletic and also, well, not only not being particularly athletic, but I mean, they, anthropologically are similar in terms of athleticism, are similar, and they're both coming out of Europe. I would say that's why those comparisons are coming up just because there's not because like, oh, you know, look, it's Denny. He's the next big thing out of Europe. So I'd say those are the only real reasons for those comparisons. I think that they're very unlikely to,

I don't think the comparisons really hold in new water. Luca, at a young age, at the age of 18, was playing very well in the second best basketball in the world. Denny at that age was a role player. So basically, I think he'll put a shot together. But the issue is, is athleticism. I think is very likely to just decrease the value of his skills at the NBA level. You can have a much harder time to get into the basket, most likely.

Maybe you're like, you know, maybe he'll surprise everybody and be like Luca, who is who is able to make it to the basket on the strength of his IQ and just savviness. Like, I'll fully admit, I looked at Luca in 2018, and I said to a friend of mine, I think he could be a very good player. I don't think he would be a star because he just doesn't have the athleticism. Of course, he's proven me absolutely and utterly wrong. No doubt about that. And so it shouldn't rule out Denny on that basis.

But it's just the thing is with Luca. I mean, guys like Luca are a few and extraordinarily far between. So I don't really see any need for those, for those comps at all. So Denny, I think, can be, if he reaches the ceiling, becomes a good shooter and can really maximize his, that really very versatile skill set of his. You know, he can, if he can shoot, he's good at creating for others.

He is able to reach the basket and breakdown opposing defenses is really able to bring that very formidable basketball IQ of his to bear. Then I think his ceiling is probably as maybe the third best player on a deep championship team. I think he's a guy who would, who like Akoro would go in the teens and a good draft. I don't think he's really all that special. I think he's just, you know, the fact that, yes, he is the best European player to, best basketball player to come out of Europe since Luca. It's only been two years. But also just this draft is weak.

So I think what really I look at is his athleticism, which isn't particularly good. And just Luca had so much more at his age than Denny does. So I just, I would pick him if the Pistons are picking fifth and like the other players that really didn't really just really want it. We're not on the board anymore. But the Pistons really, I think, need to pick for, potential. And this may be the highest traffic the Pistons get throughout the course of this rebuild.

You never know. Maybe they will have another, you know, another bad season and get luck in the lottery or something. Who knows? But I think it'd be a better pill to swallow to select a guy like Denny who probably just doesn't really have a super high ceiling at this stage of the rebuild. That said, everybody else is off the board. Then he plays certainly at a position of need. He's got potential. You know, you get what you can get. So I'd say he's definitely applicable to the best, as I just, I would rather not see it come to, to them selecting him. But if they do come to select him,

it's because they drop, probably because they dropped in the lottery. So I think his skills in terms of, if he can become a shooter, obviously that's a translatable skill. And I think he really took steps in the right direction. And if he can shoot, I think he'll be decently able to translate that passing into the NBA. But it's just that very mediocre athleticism, I think, is going to hinder him overall. anything else you like to add about Denny? Yeah.

If the Pistons were to draft him, I would like to see him come off the bench to start just because I think it would be an easier translation for him in terms of the competition, obviously, is going to be a little bit weaker off the bench. And I think it would allow him to translate his entire game a lot better than if he was, like, relegated to just being like a catch-and-shoote or a spot-up shooter where he has to, like,

earn his touches. I would like him to get those reps in so that his entire game is being developed. And this maybe is even an opportunity, since he is still fairly young and he's not the most athletic guy right away, maybe he goes to Grand Rapids for a year, spend some time there, just continuing to develop his passing game. Because I think that's like a really big part because the best wings are the ones who do more than just catch catch and shoot threes or off the dribble threes the best ones are the ones who are adding like ball handling to their to their game and that is something that people are really high on

with Denny because he does show flashes of that so I do want him to develop his entire skill set even if it's against weaker competition to start Yeah, that brings up actually the recent news of the Pistons purchasing the Suns G-League team to move to Detroit. We've been very close to the Pistons facilities, and that's certainly something we should talk about on a future episode. Anyway, moving on to the fourth and final potential draftee. We'll be profiling with today is Devon Vassel.

So this guy is really just a prototypical 3-N-D wing, highly athletic, an excellent perimeter shooter, and a very good defender. There's not really a ton more to say about the guy than that. He's got a good-looking jump shot. He's decent at attacking the baskets. He's quick in transition. Good score and transition again to the NCAA level,

but this is something it can generally translate. He's shown some ability to hit jumpers off of pull-ups, off of stepbacks. is a really hardworking switchable defender. Good fit speed, excellent Leber, hard worker team player. I think his only real issues are, well, aside from really mediocre free-row shooting,

in the low 70s, that's fixable most likely. He's not the strongest. He could stand to add some mass, which you could probably do. He's not particularly explosive. Also, I just don't think a ceiling is that high, and I think the pistons will really be shooting for a higher ceiling player. I think Vassel just,

just like Okoro and just like FDia is a player would probably go in the double digits in a good draft. Maybe in the mid-teen, some are probably still in the lottery. But in this draft, though, I mean, it would be great to have a good 3-&D wing for the Pistons. That's something they've been desperately lacking for a long time. I think they just really need to shoot higher. I think his skills as a shooter and a defender will certainly translate to the NBA. Maybe looking at a guy like Mikul Bridges, who has actually done very well, not very well, he's done quite well. the NBA underrated. I think the Sixers is definitely still kicking themselves for making that

really bizarre trade on draft night in 2018. Absolutely. So certainly applicable to the Pistons, but I don't think they will give him much of a look unless they really drop. It's possible they could drop, I believe, as low as 10th. And that's the only situation in which I really said him giving him a look. I would say the dream scenario for me, of course, is if the Sun's management, is the Suns were linked to Lucanara trade that line. And but also, ultimately made the trade break down, which was going to be a couple of, the trade was going to be a couple of kind of pretty mediocre players just for salary and broadster space filler.

And the son's first round pick in exchange for Karnard. And it's worth mentioning that Kinnard was injured at that time. And there was not really any consensus about the date on his return. It would wind up being about six weeks later. He was set to play in the very next game, which turned out after the Sixers game, which turned out to be just the game. the NBA shut down right before that game is going to be played. So I don't know if they were really looking at him as part of a playoff push because they don't know when he was going to be ready.

And the Sons were pretty far, they're really not very close to a playoff spot at the time anyway. But whatever the case, the trade broke down because of questions over protections in the pick. The Sons apparently wanted pretty strict protections, which I'm guessing means that the Pistons, the Pistons said, well, we want this pick. You know, if it falls in the top five, we still want this pick. We don't want to wait until next year when you might be a better team. We might be able to get a better deal than somebody else, and that was where the trade broke down. My dream scenario is the Pistons pick, somewhere, you know, ideally as high as possible with their own pick.

And then the incompetent management of the Sons, because of our of them, I would not make this trade. But the incompetent management of the Sons, which include James Jones, who thus far has been terrible at his job, made some bizarre trades on draft day, sent away T.J. Warren. Not for free. he actually gave up a second round pick to move T.J. Warren. Here is a pretty good player on a good contract, and we want to pay you a draft pick to take him. And then there's Jeff Bauer, who was the titular GM under Who Shall Not Beamed? Again, the former president of basketball operations, the Pistons.

Also not particularly good at his job, also notoriously bad drafter. Horrible, even before he came to the Pistons. So dream scenario, the Pistons have their pick. They trade Cinnard. This assumes the Suns. don't make the playoffs. They trade Kennard for another pick, and the Pistons can use that maybe to pick Basel.

That would be ideal. But I don't think they take him unless they really drop. Otherwise, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I'm not sure if the outcome of these playoffs actually affects draft lottery. Yeah, well, actually, they, I mean, if the sons make the playoffs, they're not in the lottery. I believe that the seating games are a will impact. I could be entirely wrong about this, actually. this is something I'll have to look into.

But if the Sons do make, do make the plans in the playoffs, then they're out of the lottery. Yeah, that's the thing. That was one of the things that I was like kind of, this was one of those things that was kind of unclear when they announced it, but it did seem like the lottery at least was kind of set

the way it was. But I would, I had the exact same thought like yesterday. Because there was this report that due to financial constraints, there were teams that were thinking of selling their picks And of course, that's like, there are teams who sell, like, their second rounders for a few million. But if there was one team that was going to sell their first rounder for, like, a lot of money, I think it would be the Sons because they don't figure to have, like, a super high pick.

I think current lottery odds are picking somewhere around, like, 12th or 10th or something like that. And a lot of the moves that they make are to save money. Like we mentioned the Pistons acquiring the Suns G League team. Most G-League teams are a drain. Like, they're not profitable. Grand Rapids is that's probably why they want to stay where they are. And they feel like they can. Maybe not much longer.

Right. That is a risky prospect. I know they feel like a connection to West Michigan. And I do feel for the West Michigan fans out there who probably do enjoy watching the Pistons prospect. come through. That's off topic. I feel like the Sons did sell that team because they didn't want to take the financial

burden. And going back to T.J. Warren, even, they were paid, like, a lot of money. Or there was, like, a financial gain for them to just get rid of a very good player who could really help them right now on the wing. If there was a team that was going to sell their first rounder, I think it would be the Sons. And I think the Pissons would be a team. in the running to pay for it.

And if it's not that Luke Canard trade, which I think it has a very good shot of happening. I think the Sons didn't make that trade at the time because they were afraid that their pick would jump up, as slim of a chance that is of happening at that point in the lottery. Yeah, Devin Vassell or even Cole, Anthony, that low would be a dream scenario. And I think there is a chance that that happens. but I have the cell pretty high.

I think I have him fifth on my board. I think I switched him in Lamello. But I really, really like his game. It's fairly limited, like you said, but I don't think that's necessarily the worst thing. I think he's just like that ultra role player where he's just like a really good complimentary piece. I think he would struggle, at least in our first year,

since he would probably be playing on a bad team and bad teams without a lot of offensive weapons. If you are the offensive weapon, you do tend to struggle. But in both of his years at Florida State, he shot over 40%. I had originally thought he was kind of on low volume because he was only shooting, or he only averaged like 12.7 points per game this season. But watching Florida State, I think it's just because they kind of play a game that's kind of devoid of stars and everybody plays their role and it's a very balanced attack.

his game is mostly that of an offball shooter he doesn't do much ball handling because that's not his strength and again i know some people like you even said um you you want the pistons to go for the higher ceiling guys but i think he can be a very impactful player just by being like a very good help defender very good on ball defender and then being a very good three-point shooter with the sky high release i don't think he's going to get blocked really at all at the NBA level i think he just have to put a in his face and hope for the best. I think the ringer comps into Chris Middleton, and I like that comp.

He does figure to be a pretty good perimeter defender. And he was switching on to at least college bigs in the Florida state offense, which is good, because he wasn't like stopping them, but he was like kind of pestering them and making their shots tougher. And that's kind of what you want. You want that versatility.

And I really, really like that. I think the Pistons need to play more. switching with their defense and that's kind of like that extra versatility is like even though LaSalle's game is more limited in terms of ball handling, that's where he can be the versatile player and make things easier on the defensive end. And then like we mentioned when we were talking about the core of the guys who can reliably sink three point shots either off the catch and shoot or off the off the screen and catch, those are extremely valuable players. The only thing with his scoring is that he can't really score at the rim.

He just isn't strong enough for that yet. He can score reliably from three, and I like his shot even in the mid-range. He's shown some flashes of a nice turnaround jumper from there, but he doesn't really have much in the way of creating his own offense. He uses like one-to-three dribbles sometimes to try and shake defenders, but then he sets his feet and he rises. and once he releases, I have no problems with his shots or his shot selection even. He shoots well enough and he just doesn't take a lot of bad shots at the rim.

And the other thing is that he was 94th percentile in points per possession in transition. And that's a game that I want the Pistons to try and do more of. So, like, obviously transition, that's a lot of, like, offensive scheme and, like, running those. But it's not a bad thing that he's a really good transition score. And the other thing is, is defense. We talked about a coro and the Pistons fans who really want, you know, defensive-minded players. This might be your guy. I mean, he has enough on offense that you can feel perfectly fine about selecting this guy for defense.

I'm higher on him than others, just because, like you said, he doesn't have the highest ceiling, but I think he can be a high-impact player regardless of the fact that he's really just 3-D. Yeah, I think the comps to Middleton are pretty optimistic, given that Middleton's one of the best shooters in the league. Yeah. That's like his ceiling, but I do have faith that he's going to translate it. I think he'll translate his shooting, and I think he'll translate his shooting, and I think his defense will translate pretty well.

But again, I think, I'd peg him more as just kind of a Mika Brutus type, like definitely a good role player with a high floor. But I don't think that's who the Pistons are really looking for right now. I feel like Vassel's the kind of guy, you draft when you have more of the pieces in place. I think personally for me, this would be a pretty disappointing draft if the Pistons came away with only him, just because I don't think he has that ceiling as an offensive creator.

and I don't think yeah I just I don't see him being really a foundational piece in the rebuild and again I could be absolutely wrong I mean that there's always the space to be absolutely wrong in these I just think I do think he's a super safe player I'd say that of all the guys mocked him like the top seven top eight of the draft

top ten even I mean it's vassal and halberton are going to be your ultimate safe picks but I would just like to see the pistons. The pistons just badly need that guy who's going to be able to create offense for himself. It's just badly need that kind of guy, whoever it is. So I would just much rather see them take a shot on somebody who's just probably got a higher ceiling.

I just don't think a ceiling is really all that respectable. I think he'll be a good player. I just think he's another one of those guys who would go in the low lottery in a good draft. Who is just being who has been shoved into the spotlight in this draft just because, unfortunately, for the Bistons, you know, they can't even do this, right? You know, the year which they have, you know, have their highest pick and possibly their highest pick. Could be lower.

Their highest pick in a while is one of the weakest drafts in recent memory. I don't think, like I know the 2000 and, what was it, 2013 draft? Yeah, I think that was it. It was known that it wasn't super strong, but I don't think anybody thought it was this week. I could be wrong, but I don't remember anybody thinking it was that week. So, yeah, that's what I think, that's what I think about, but Devin, it's nice that we disagree on something here. Yeah, no, I was going to say, I'd have to disagree with you, man.

Like, I think that, for one thing, I don't think the Pistons need to go for ball handling right away. I think they can just sign like a one-year rental on a guy who can just create it an average level or reliably, and they just take the guy who they think is going to be the best long-term piece. because if you're just whiffing on high, high level picks to start, that doesn't inspire a lot of faith in your rebuild. And I understand that if you're going to take the,

or make those high risk picks, now is a decent time to do that because you're just at the start of your rebuild. But I think Vesel can be like a good foundational piece. I think he can be like your third best player on a championship team. And since the 2021 and 22 drafts figure to be, a lot better and the Pistons figure to be pretty bad next year, assuming that they don't watch Fred Van Vleet torch whoever.

They're like, oh, yeah, we should sign that guy and screw everything up. But that's just me projecting. I think... I'm concerned actually about the Pistons next year because, I mean, assume that Christian Wood comes back, that Blake Griffin plays at a somewhat healthy level, even if he misses like 30% of the season. and that some other guys make progress,

especially if Kinnard has not gone. I don't think it's out of the question that the Pistons could be playing their way into the low lottery. That's why I think they really need a hit on this pick. Now, if the next season goes tragically wrong somehow, then yeah, they could easily find themselves high in the lottery again. But I don't think they're in a good position right now

to be high in the lottery. Yeah, I would be very surprised if Luke Kinnard was still on the roster to start at the beginning of next year. I don't think they want to pay him, and I don't think that, I think he has enough value that somebody will. want him for a positive value. I don't think it's like they're going to play a hard ball and keep him if not.

I agree with that. It's just that I don't have the confidence at the Pistons. So let's say, I mean, if Griffin is either injured for most of the season or just anywhere near as bad as he was this last year, then show the Pistons be a bad team. If Griffin returns and plays reasonably well when Christian Wood turns out that his performance last season was not a fluke and he's still with the team, they're going to win more games. I mean, they lost a lot of games late in the season because just everything fell right. Everything sucked.

You know, the business sucked. Of course, this hinges on Derek Rose staying healthy. Probably not altogether extremely likely. But who knows, maybe Bruce Brown makes us improvements. Maybe even, you know, the likes of Kyrie Thomas comes and puts in some decent work. You're scaring me, man. Yeah, it is. The prospect is all scary.

I don't think by any means that the business will be. pursue vent fleets or anything like that. I mean, I think that weaver wasn't brought in for that kind of purpose, just to try to pivot back and become a team of the ceiling in the first round again. But I'm not entirely confident the Pistons will be picking this high again next season. So I'd really like to see them take a risk. And if that's, if I feel like if the Pistons are,

I really don't like him now. We'll talk about this in the next episode. By the way, we're going to be doing, he ended up Tommy and I plan on doing point guards. for the final episode of this of this series. And then we disagree a great deal on the middle of all. I don't like him. But I would take him if the Pistons were at number five and he was still available, unlikely.

But if the Pistons were at number five and the other boys I like were off the board, I would take him just because I think the Pistons really need to take a risk. Not a stupid risk, but I think they need to take a risk with the pick that they've got. And I'd just rather not see them take a player who will be just like a high-level role player. I don't see Chris Middleton as a high-level role player, by the way. I think if Vassel turned out to be Chris Middleton, then that would be a fantastic pick for the Pistons, but I just don't think it's happening. So, yeah, so the final thing we can talk about in the show, just very briefly, because this is trying to do another long episode. Is the move, excuse me, is this the decision of the Pistons to buy the Phoenix Suns G-League affiliates and move it to Detroit, thus supplanting the drive as the Pistons G-League affiliate that the drive will become unaffiliated?

So I know that this is another issue on which we agree. It's great for the purposes of development to have a team that is right near your facilities. You can basically, they'll be developed. These players will be, the team will be close enough that the players the team owns, who are with the G-League team can train in the business facilities. They can be added to the roster at a moment's notice. They can be under the eye to the development team the entire time. I mean, it's very, very nice to have that sort of proximity.

People can say, oh, well, Grand Rapids is only two hours away. It's like the difference between two hours and 15 minutes, in practical terms, is very significant. Guys are not going to be making a two-hour commute every day to use your facilities. And you are not going to be making a two-hour drive every day to see how they're doing. So I think this is a great move for the Pistons. Kudos to Tom Gores for paying the money to make this happen because I think there's so much success to be found in the NBA from teams with those teams with very effective. development apparatus, like the... Raptors.

The hoop. The Raptors. They made very good use of their G-League team. The Raptors did a great job. Yeah. The, not just the Ackham, I mean, Van Fleet as well. No, Powell. So the heat, of course, are famous for theirs.

And the Mavericks. Like, teams that are just great at developing players. And you've got out of the infrastructure in place. And though I feel bad for the people. It's like you said, I feel bad. also for the fans in Grand Rapids and for the drive as an organization, it's just this, I think this is the right move for the Pistons. That having those players that close that you can, you know, that you've got eyes on them

basically at all times and they can benefit from your developmental staff and your facilities and everything like that. It's just a big deal. Yep. I mean, Robert Covington was picked out of our G-League affiliate. I mean, it's great that the Pistons. are seemingly taking every avenue that they can pay for to find players. I mean, they pulled Christian Wood off the waiver wire.

It's very encouraging to me that they're not just trying to, you know, sign role players or, like, guys who are just, like, earning big money. I mean, even every time Van Vleek goes off, some big writers, like, oh, you know, the Pistons have just added another million to their contract offer for this guy. I don't want that. I think a lot of sports writers don't, haven't really done the research into the Pistons. And, you know, I don't blame them for thinking, like, oh, the Pistons is just going to pivot and try to compete again right away because that's what they've been doing forever. But it's different.

And the team has come out and said that. Tom Gores came out and said, we don't want to be the A-seat every year. It's pretty clear that when the Pistons got rid of, like, just got rid of a big chunk of the roster, including the presumptive two-man core of only like four years. years ago, three years ago for nothing, I am nothing including like a pick that's most likely to amount to nothing in 2024. And in all the statements by the front office that this is, this is a different situation. So I'm not worried about them going a lot this summer unless Tom Gores just abruptly changes his minds, which is possible, but I think unlikely. So, yeah, I like the direction of things are going, but just like I said, I just wish I, and hey,

say this about your team. You just hate it because you like to see your team win. But I wish I had more confidence that the business would be bad next season. I don't think they have the pieces right now, the young pieces and just the overall talents necessary to, I think, you know, even taking a new account this summer, I think they need at least another year high in the draft in order to get the foundation that they need. Yeah, I'd prefer like three to four, not three to four, two to three more years in the high lotto. I'd say two years. you know, the only other way to see it is if you draft like a point guard this year in the draft and that point guard does great and Seku makes a huge leap and Wood is great, then, okay, cool,

maybe you keep Kennard and you've got yourself a decent core. And Bruce Brown really makes a leap. But I think the possibility of that happening is very well. So anyway, I'd like to thank you all for listening. As I said, the next episode will be the final one in our draft profile series that will be looking at point guards, including the aforementioned. and it's very polarizing, well, mellow ball. So thank you all for listening.

We'll catch you next time.