Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 171: Very Early Regular Season Takeaways

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

This episode discusses some very, very early season takeaways: the good, the bad, and the ugly. 

Welcome back. Everybody listened to another episode of Drive Into the Basket. First episode of the regular season. My name is Mike here today with Price, who is generously offered to guests in this episode so I don't have to talk to myself for 30 to 60 minutes. So, Bryce, welcome back to the show. Always help. Always good to be of help. Absolutely. You're a very, very kind and generous person. So we're just going to talk. takeaways from the first four games of the season. And I believe this always deserves a provisor that this is early in the season. And early in any NBA season, things are really wonky and always subject to change. And some things probably will change. Other things we'll talk about maybe a little bit less likely to change. But I think it's often best to really reserve strong judgments at this stage of a season.

though again I think that there are some long-term takeaways that we can glean I think it does bear mention at this point that the first three games the Pistons had it kind of easy uh this heat team yeah they did they did just make it to the finals they were pretty bad regular season team last year and pretty poor whilst a couple of key guys from that run um but blur and harrow just had really bad games of their own accord while where he didn't shoot the ball and so on and so forth and the the hornets and the balls are a mess uh the thunder different story. Anyway, let's get rolling. We'll just start off with some positive takeaways. We'll move on to the maybe not so good stuff afterward. So Price for you, what is, doesn't need to be in any

particular order, but for you, what is the first positive takeaway that comes to mind? So we can, we can just go with players. So which player comes to mind for you? And we're thinking positive takeaways. I think for me, it's Jalen Duren has been one of the biggest bright spots in this young season. He's been just everywhere in terms of his rebounding, leading the league, or is now, I think, fourth or top five. And he's been just doing so much work to help alleviate the scoring load on Cade, which I wasn't expecting at all. And he's really helping to form that nice duo. And he's incredibly young, 19 still. I know that that gets brought up during every game ad nauseum. Wait, he's only 19? Nobody told me. Yeah, he's only 19. Did you hear? Did you know?

No, I didn't. I had no idea. Nobody told me last year that he was the youngest player in the league 50 times. 50 times. Right. Either the away broadcast or the home broadcast made sure to slip that little nugget in. Yeah, Greg Kelser. It says, this kid is only 19 or only 18, you know? He may have said that a few times. Yeah, it's to the point of becoming a mean within the Pistons community, that he's a teenager. But, I mean, he's looked great for the most part.

I mean, there's still some defensive issues, but I feel like he's been a lot better at staying engaged and being a physical force, especially matched up against centers in more one-on-one settings, like at the block. I've been pretty impressed with Jalen Duren overall. Yeah, me too, for sure. He's been a surprise. I mean, my opinion was that all he needed to really do was improve on defense and reach

what I think is a very high, you know, I think he's got a high ceiling on defense. But all he needed to do was reach his defensive potential and he would be easily a top 10 center, even if he wasn't necessarily able to do all that much on offense. And I agree his defense has improved. Again, only four games, not against the greatest competition. He's allowing only 50% of the rim, which is quite good. And it's really on, and he's just a, he's been more energetic, just been using his, his length and his athleticism to disrupt things more than he was last season. And not making the same sort of kind of like many positioning mistakes.

Now it's on offense where he's really impressed me. Just we saw a couple instances last year, the rare instance of him just. taking the ball and very surprisingly driving it at him, for example. He's shown more on the way of handle. He's shown much more in the way of touch around the rim, the passing. Just overall, I've been very impressed. Yeah, in one sense, you pretty much summed up what I think has been the biggest improvement, which is his offense. He's more comfortable putting the ball on the deck and actually driving if he's got a lane. He's so big. He's so bouncy. He's so fast. He's. He's more comfortable. He's that it makes it somewhat difficult to get in front of him.

We'll put it mildly. So the fact that he's recognizing that more often now, I think is huge. The passing, obviously, we knew that that was in his scouting report, even back to the draft. But, man, he's looked super comfortable making passes. His hands are so good in general. Like this guy has got really good touch at at threading the needle, at gathering passes from Cade or gathering passes from Ivy or whoever. And being able to alter angles pretty quickly as windows open or as he predicts windows open. So that I think it's more like that his basketball IQ seems to be progressing.

that I think is the biggest sign of encouragement for Pistons fans. More than any of the other stats that we can point to is the fact that this kid, his feel is just improving. Yeah. And we should just be expecting more, like year over year, just more comfortability, more quick decision making, more, you know, little things with like how he, what angles he chooses to do, his screens on. As that evolves, I think we're going to see a huge improvement. And he's got,

I think, real all-star potential. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think we've seen a noticeable improvement in his processing. I agree. And even just, even beyond his processing, and he just seems to be able to do things on a much, make these decisions on a much faster basis, whether on defense or as a passer, or even what he does when he gets the ball around the basket, much more patience, not just kind of throwing up, kind of a more wild way up, just establishing position,

getting himself to the right time and place to shoot. But even his scoring overall, like you mentioned his hands, which are quite large hands, of course, and a little joke there, but they are pretty darn big. Just his ability to grab the ball off the bounce, like from Cade in particular,

and just pound it down from above the rim. even from close end off the move before anybody can do anything about it. And, yeah, he's gotten himself a bunch of, a bunch of, a bunch of and ones just from scoring super well through contact. It's, he's extremely strong. It looks like a very different player in the last season. It's much more experienced, much more well-rounded. Yeah.

The signs of encouragement are very real. Absolutely. Yeah. I completely agree there. He's, he's, just like you said, I completely agree. that he's the player who's been the most kind of tantalizing so far. And I don't know if we've mentioned this, but he's only 19. Wait, he's 19?

Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah, it's crazy. And this would be his rookie year if he hadn't reclassified. So he was very raw last year. He's made a lot in the way of improvements, and I still think he's got a ways to go. And, yeah, and he's showed more on offense than I really expected to see from him. So, yeah, yeah.

Biggest, he's my, my biggest point of positive overall the last first four games. Yeah. Had more trouble against Oklahoma City because they're well-coached, you know, solid team with defenders who are long and fast and could absolutely swarm him because they had no issues whatsoever with leaving certain members of the roster open. But that's, and he looked a little bit more confounded there. But, you know, it's, you know, it's. he's only 19 it's still growing obviously not not really a problem it's just he had you know

it was it was different you know that some some teams are going to be easier than others and he was not really playing necessarily an ideal situation so yeah either way super exciting definitely the highlight for me too so I'll go next and hmm what I say

I think a Sarth Thompson's defense which think we both thought would be good. I don't think either of us thought it would be quite this good. I've just been really impressed so far, like really, really impressed by the defense. I'm flabbergasted that he's this competent on defense already. He's able to stay locked in almost every possession. I mean, he doesn't win every rep, but boy, is he taking a lot of good reps off of serious big time scorers.

I know it's regular season Jimmy, but it's still Jimmy Butler. And he can definitely make guys pay if they're not careful. And Nasar was taking reps off of him. And he was taking reps off Shea. He was taking reps off of a maximalized Zach Levine, who was as automatic as he's ever been. Oh, he was amazing. Yeah.

Yeah, he was. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, Sarr didn't do quite as well in that game, but some guys are just going to, you can force them into the toughest shots you can. And if they make them, then you tip your hat and you move on to the next possession. Yeah. And that's what Levine was doing.

That's what DeMar can do as well. Yeah, I was most impressed by his defense on Shea. And thank you pronouncing that right because I constantly mispronounce it as shy, if nobody corrects me. So if you want to be able to be. look at the stats, and I mean, defensive stats don't tell you the complete picture, obviously, you know, for one, I mean, for a SAR, I would say that they're actually better than the stats tell you, because defensive stats can't tell you, obviously, when defense was so good that

a player didn't even attempt to shot. But Shea shot two of eight from the floor. Uh, the SAR blocked him twice. She did get to the line a couple times, but all told, it was, like, eight points on nine possessions for a player who was extremely difficult to guard. So, I think it was actually nine points on 10 possessions, excuse me, something like that. Whatever the case, SAR did extremely well against Shea, who is extremely difficult to guard. So, and I mean, not only is it just one-on-one-one D, I mean, he's, he's extremely mobile. He comes out of nowhere to block shots. I mean, he's already great in Helpside.

He's super athletic, knows how to position his body. Still has strength to put on as well. I think he's got space for that. I think it's also bears. pointing out that he's averaging over 10 rebounds through four games. It's very early. The stats are very noisy. I understand,

but that's a pretty ridiculous number for a rookie. Yeah. He's got the 4.3 assists per game, the 2.5 turnovers. So it's a pretty good ratio, 2.5 blocks. Yeah. again, super early, but that's very... That defense is here to stay.

I mean, that much, I think that much can be said with confidence. The blocks, yeah, I mean, he just comes, he's... Most players don't have this sense. I mean, he uses his length and his athleticism expertly, but he also just has the sense of how to position himself and when to swing the arm, you know, just to get the block without following. And I knew he was athletic.

I did not know he was quite this athletic playing defense in the half court. I mean, he can come flying out of nowhere. And he knows where to be. And yeah, the defensive upside is extremely high there. And it's just been a joy to watch him on defense. You mentioned the passing. Just his ability as a connective passer is really pretty impressive. He just knows how to just get the ball and do something good with it right away for a teammate.

Yeah. And he's getting four, almost four and a half offensive rebounds per game right now. Yeah, the rebounding. Yeah, the rebounding's been good. And that, I think, is here to stay, too. Maybe not 10 a game. But then he gets here to stay. Yeah.

I think that being a much more positive than average rebounder is probably going to be something we'll see for his career. It's his ability to track balls is so good. Yeah. It's so good. He wins so many 50-50 balls. That's another thing Duren does as well. Duren wins those 50-50 balls just with effort and foresight that some people just have that knack. Like Dennis Rodman is sort of the architect.

typo, like preternatural rebounder who would just watch rebounding tape for like thousands of hours. These guys are not in that stratosphere, obviously, but we got some pretty special talents when it comes to dominating the glass. And I'm very encouraged by a lot of what I've seen by Asar so far. Yeah. Now, the rebounding, I mean, it's his athleticism, his length. Like you said, he's just, he's got a good mind for it, but he's also just very aggressive. I mean, he goes 100% for these rebounds and he wrestles him down, same as Duren. Yeah, we didn't mention Duren's rebounding. I mean, Duren has been just finding himself amidst like three guys around the rim

and he still grabs it just because he's fast, he's aggressive, he's strong, and he can't be moved. Yeah, I mean, he's, he's like, he's a tree amongst smaller trees out there for the most part. I'm looking forward to seeing him go up against. I mean, I know that he's probably still going to get worked because everybody does, at least right now in his sophomore season, but going up against Embed and Yokic and down low. And, yeah, again, he's probably not going to be very successful,

but that's no knock on him. You know, as a second year, 19-year-old player against like two guys who are virtually unstoppable in the post. But, yeah, so, yeah, good takeaways from Asar as a passer, as a defender, as a rebound. under. It's, it's, it's been cool to watch. And it seems like, as we expected, very smart, very hardworking and very, very athletic. Why do the Pistons play the Rockets? I don't know. I'm going to look this up right now because that's, that's going to be a marquee matchup just watching. Oh, you got to be kidding me. Not until New Year's Day. That's nonsense. But, but that'll be fun.

I mean, he and Tia and, he and Anna know, know each other pretty well. They look a lot alike. You know, they, yeah, I mean, they're identical twins, whatever. Yeah. I just, I find it funny. I've got identical twins in the family. So it's just, it's just kind of funny to me. Unsurprisingly, they are not quite as athletic or good at basketball as, as, as Amin and Osar. But, you know, most people aren't.

They're also, you know, five foot two females. So, in any case. All right. So we've talked to Saur. We've talked Doren. What else you got? Now, this might be a little bit different, but one guy who I've been just so happy to see every time he steps on the court has been Alec Berks. And it's for one reason and one reason only, but it's a big one.

And it's his three-point shooting has been a godsend for this piston's team. every time he's on the court, I feel just more comfortable in whatever we're going to be doing. We're going to have a little bit more spacing that teams are going to have to respect. He makes a lot of savvy plays where it's like he knows how the game is called and he'll kind of get a little bit of drawn fouls going, you know, to sort of slow the other team's role during certain runs. he's been making, again, just solid plays. And I know he's not like going to be a great offensive creator, but he plays his role. He's knocking down shots at the very sustainable clip of, oh, 53%.

Yeah, I agree it's not sustainable. I expect him to probably settle at something like 80%, maybe by the end of the season. Yeah, right. He just, he can't keep shooting such a low percentage. But Birx is, I mean, this is something I think is undersell over the veterans in the team, those being Birx and Boyon, that they just open up so many possibilities in how elite they are as shooters and how much the, just what you can do with them, run them off screens.

Defensees have to account for them constantly. You can't give them any space. They're elite play finishers. And, you know, Burks had a career season last year. And, yeah, and, you know, hopefully we'll see another one. I would not be surprised. I think it'll be a strong shooter regardless. He's a good veteran.

He's not the greatest defender, but on offense, he's very valuable. And, yeah, I agree. He's been impressive. I still resent him a little bit for taking that three at the end of the game last year that denied him from having like 30 points on perfect shooting. I was like, why would you do that in the last minute of a game? I don't actually resent him for that. But, yeah, he's, he's been good.

Looking forward to getting Boyon back as well, because, you know, I know that there's a certain thought of, you know, the pistons are young developing, which is trade the veterans. These guys are very valuable. And ironically, like probably the third best shooter on the team. And Weston ends up being Sasser, who's basically a veteran already at age 23. I'm kidding. But it would be Monti Morris, who's also a very strong shooter. But yeah, guys like Burks are just very valuable in any offensive system. And yeah, he's, he's been extremely, extremely useful. So I think was leading the NBA and plus minus. But again, there are reasons for that. We'll get into it. Yeah. So, yeah, Burks has been good. Absolutely.

Yeah. Been my just bright spot. I'm always happy to see Alec Burke step on the court. And that's been, you know, huge for my sanity. Who was it? Who was it somebody in, I remember if it was a fan or it was a misspelling by a writer somewhere, called him Alex Burt? I think it was a fan.

That one's kind of caught on. It reminds me back in the Red Wings days, seeing people butcher the names of Red Wings players. One of them was like, you know, Rex Hoodler. You know, Yerha was called Rex Hood. Rexover was a baseball player. You know, Bart Webbda, but the grind line had it worst, you know, with like Darren McCarthy, you know,

Kurt Maltby and then Chris Draper spelled wrong. Yeah, they managed to butcher all of them in print. Just names that should not. be a struggle, but there we are. Yeah. So my next one would be Jaden Ivy in some ways. So Jaden Ivy, obviously,

coming into the league is a very explosive player. It's looking substantially more explosive this year somehow than he did last year. I mean, he's a blur out there, and I feel like we're really seeing, you know, why he was heralded as you know, a guy who was going to be one of the most athletic players in the league when he was coming in. We didn't see as much last year, but this year, I feel like he's really reached another gear and it's just doing much better at attacking the rim.

Yes. And I mean, the three-point shot looks pretty good. And the rim finishing, other than that ridiculous miss window, has been better. So I've liked a lot of the reps that Ivy has taken. He's been quietly very effective. He struggled a lot, game one. I will put that caveat out there. I thought he had a really rough game one.

But I mean, afterwards, it's felt like he's been coming off the bench and it's just been ready to roll as soon as his numbers call. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like, it's just like darn. He's playing smarter. Last year, there was a lot of straight line driving. It was very predictable. He was incredibly athletic, but he would just drive right into guys and get stopped.

And as the season went on, he struggled more at the rim. And he did start shooting a lot better from mid-range and on the floater and from three, of course. But this season, he's picking his lanes a lot better. He's actually utilizing lateral mobility. And he's just, he's driving in a much smarter way that's going to give him a better shot again in the rim, including from off the ball. And I think that's an underrated aspect of his game that he's, I think he's going to be very effective off-ball attack or his shooting as well good. And I know you can point out, yeah, shot 34% on the season last year.

He was a much stronger shooter than that in the second half of the season, like much, much stronger. Yeah, it feels like he's more and more dangerous every time that the ball gets kicked out to him on three-point attempts. And I feel like the respect is going to start to come. And once that happens, then that his game is going to open wide open once teams have to guard up on him. It's going to be ridiculously hard.

to get in front of him if you have to respect his shot. Yeah, what is the, what is, I just still don't understand his issue in terms of standing like a foot behind the 3.1. But as long as it works, I mean, he did the same thing in Purdue. Like he'd stand like a foot beyond the 3 point line. And he came to the NBA where the 3 point line is further out and he's still standing a foot behind it. So it's not like he was deliberately shooting at NBA 3 point range. Whatever, as long as it works. I just figure he's kind of making things more difficult for himself.

Yeah, so I agree is, yeah, he just, he looks like a player who is growing, which is exactly what you want to see. There are still some boards, but I think we've seen, yeah, significant growth over the offseason. Okay, so that's Ivy. Yeah, who else do you have? I've got a few more I can go over. They're smaller. Yeah, right? Yeah.

I have a big one that does not involve a player. Let's see it or hear it, rather. Yes, right. This is a podcast. Oh, yes. That's true. The big, or a big general takeaway is ball movement actually works. Yeah, coaching.

And I can't believe that I'm the one bringing this up after all of the years of listening to you. Just point out in excruciating detail, the lack of ball movement, Dwayne Casey, would have for this Pistons team. because there's so much movement on the court now for the Pistons. I'm like, is this a modern offense? Like, what are we doing? Yeah. We're running, we are running picks for guys not immediately on the ball. What is going on?

Yeah. Yeah, like we both have bones to pick with Moni's lineups, which we'll talk about later on. But in terms of just how he is coaching the offense is world's better than Casey. and Casey was a moderate upgrade on Van Gundy. Let's just forget those years even happened. Yeah, Casey was a very, very indifferent offensive minds when you look at, yeah, I mean, I think I've said plenty about that already. Amani is much better.

And it's nice to have a coach who is actually capable of, you know, running things on offense, innovating, running a complex scheme. I don't think that Casey was ever running a simple scheme just because he had young players. He was running a simple scheme when he was coaching a team full of veterans. he's just a very, very untalented coach on offense. So I agree. That's been a plus and that's been fun to watch. And it's like it's an extreme breath of fresh air.

Yeah, that's been, it's been great just watching. We actually leak guys out across the baseline now that sort of help put pressure on weak side actions. We're moving guys, but from corners to the break and then back, just to sort of help to distract different defenders, so that way they are reacting with a little bit less prime

to play on the ball. There's been a lot of different things that have been gone on while watching the Pistons that it makes it much easier to watch. Oh, yeah, for sure. Like things, for example, like just like the little actions he runs with Daron and Stewart, which I think even more effective

against kind of weaker defenses but having Duren be out on a perimeter and wait for Stewart to seal up and toss him a pass and Stewart can take advantage of a mismatch.

I mean just the little things like that that are just innovations that we haven't seen from a coach of the pistons and admittedly the bar is low but that we haven't seen from a coach of the pistons in a long time.

It's been a long, long, dark period of coaching that ranges from really mediocre to, actually horrible. So I agree. Absolute breath of fresh air there. That's, that's been remarkable to see. Yeah, like actual honesty goodness NBA coaching. Yeah, it looks like how other teams look. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Somebody, speaking of Stewart, I want to mention a little bit, just more versatility. And this is also

partly coaching. Just those actions. I'd say this entirely coaching, actually. But just seeing actions that do take advantage of his ability to generate mismatches because he has his issues in terms of mobility and athleticism, especially at the four. But that's just good to see. So I guess that was just kind of sprouting a little bit off of your point. Beyond that, mine are pretty small. Sasser looks like he, I mean, is really just kind of like a waterbug out there.

I think that's the word I'm looking for. Or is that toughness? I can't remember. Sasser is extremely hardworking and fast and slippery. whatnot and kind of gives glimpses of the kind of the shooting specialist, I think he'll be. And Bagway's made some improvements in terms of attacking off the dribble and the shot form looks quite a bit better. Yeah, I would say that those are definitely small positives that Stewart's shooting has been competent. It's not been lights out by any means, but it's been

competent. The Sasser minutes have been pretty good. He handles the ball, I think about as well. or better than I thought. And that's nice that we might have long term that backup or sort of secondary ball handler to sort of run out there, either next to a starter or off the bench. Also, the three-point shot looks extremely pure with Sasser. So that's great. Yeah.

And then Bagley looks like he's playing for his career. And that's kind of what we wanted. He looks hungry. Yeah. And it's still not good on defense at all. But the offensive component, I've seen him just be much more active, much more engaged. And for off the bench scoring on a bad team, which the pistons are, it's fine. So yeah, I'm with you on all those points.

Yeah, I think I'm a little bit higher on the pistons than, or at least they came into the season, a little bit higher on this team, than was probably the end. average that I saw. I still think that this is a team that can make the plan if everything cuts right. Wow. Yeah, I'm not there. I'm not there. Yeah, if everything cuts. I mean, a lot would have to go right. But I don't think it's out of the question. It's, you know, it's the 10th seat. I think it could happen. It's definitely the sealing outcome, in my opinion. But I, you know, I think it's a possibility. I wouldn't bank on it, but I think it's a possibility. All right. So let's move on to a few of the kind of less ideal, less good takeaways. And I know we're going to completely agree on this, the starting lineup. I don't understand what's happening.

Monty Williams is a competent coach. He knows he's fielding a starting lineup that has no hope of succeeding with two non-shooting perimeter players when even one is usually ruinous to an offense. Three non-shooters altogether, two players who are more or less offensive zeros at this point. no genuinely good shooter like a motion shooter who shoots high percentage like Birx for example

horrible spacing far too little scoring it's a nightmare like then it has been comically bad on offense I don't know what's going on I don't know why it's Killian who when it could be Burks I just don't get it

look I've been advocating for Burks since the preseason that was the lineup that just made the most sense to me. Like, Ivy off the bench, I disagree with. Me too. Because I would rather have the warts of Ivy that can hopefully get rounded out and develop next to K'd, develop within the offensive structure that Kade provides. But I at least can understand it because they probably want to just see Ivy be able to dictate the flow of the game when he's on the court, and it might be the better learning environment for that aspect to not play him as heavily with Cade. They are getting

some minutes together, but it's not that much. But going back to it, Berks, on the other hand, he's the most natural fit next to Cade on the roster in terms of being a guard. He can do movement shooting. He spaces the floor. He makes heads-up plays. He provides that veteran stability, all at the cost of maybe some defensive matchup issues. Yeah, I just don't get, I don't get what's going on right now. I mean, again, I think Monty is doing this for some reason. It is, I cannot think it is because he thinks this lineup has any capability of success. It's just, this is a lineup that completely punts on the necessities for an offense in today's NBA. You cannot have all of those weakness.

You can't put out two guys who are liabilities from the perimeter and bad scores. I mean, Asara is coming in. Asara, the team perfectly 100% knew entirely that he is, his half-court scoring is all upside at this point. He really struggled in the half-court in OT. Yeah. All he needs to do to become a strong start in the NBA, shoot the bowl well. But he's coming in needing to work on everything in the half-country.

court. So that's, that's no surprise. It's not a knock on him. It's just how things are right now. He's very much a raw product on offense. And then you have Killian, who over the last two seasons has been arguably the least effective score amongst big minute players in the entire league. And so Kate is, I forgot to mention this in the positive. Cade's shop looks a lot better, like a lot of a lot better. And he's shooting close to 40%. And yeah, and I was very confident it would come along just because he was too good of a shooter in college. But it's like your second best shooter is Isaiah Stewart, who I think will be a good shooter, but he's not who you want to be your second best shooter. Nope. You want him to be a third or fourth best shooter on the court.

Yeah. And so they don't have the firepower. Cade gets swarmed. Like, again, the heats, excuse me, the hornets and the bulls are just complete hot messes. Both of them are pretty poorly coached on top of it. And they didn't really have the capacity to punish the pistons for this. The thunder, punish the pistons, punish the starting line. Though even the starting line up was crap even then. It was getting worked over pretty bad, but even the first three games in terms of on-off, in terms of net rating. The Thunder, the first team they played, the Thunder are a good team and they completely exploited the starting lineup. And it was incredibly ugly. Yeah.

Yeah, I want to put a pin in Cade. But just in general, I don't know how we can justify this for anything other than injury. And I know there's the whole killing conversation, but other than injury, there's the whole killing conversation. but other than injury, this shouldn't be happening. No. It probably shouldn't be happening, period. I agree. Like, that's the only, only logic that comes to mind.

It's like we want a guy who can, I don't get it, because the Killian component is that he provides defense and ball handling. Is it Morris that they're waiting to come back on and then play Morris next to K for the ball handling component? It's possible. Yeah, I just don't get it either. I think it's worth saying it's been four games. This lineup is not going to last.

You know, it could be any given, any given game, killing could be out of the starting lineup. I think Assar will stay and they'll just accept, they'll just accept the fact that the defense is going to suffer when he's in the four, because that's a given. If this were, if Tom Goros had said, I demand that you win as many games as possible, Asar would not be starting, but it clearly hasn't happened.

And, but, yeah, and it's not like, oh, hey, Jaden, we're trying to make a point to you. You've got to earn it. And so the guy who's going to replace you in the starting lineup is an enormous minus named Killian Hayes, who's just getting these big minutes simply because he exists. Yeah, he can technically handle the ball, but he's very limited as a handler on defense. He's at his strongest when the play slows down. He's not very good on the drive.

No. He's getting destroyed by Zach Levine. Yeah, well, to be fair, he was hitting some difficult shots. but yeah, Killian is not a guy who can defend Zach Levine. And Zach Levine stays moving. And if a guy is moving full tilt, Killian is not a good defender. So it's just an,

it is a lineup that is guaranteed to fail unless Killian becomes, or a SAR becomes a much better shooter. And even then Killian's going to be an unholy drag in the offense just because he's terrible on offense. So I don't get it. It's frustrating to me. I expected it will change. But the starting lineup has been horrendous.

Like, statistically speaking, This is a fact. It has been terrible. And it was a big minus even before the Thunder game. Yeah, right. Yeah. Then you bring in Berks for Killian and the lineup gets a whole lot better. As he's usually, Berks is the first guy off the bench and he replaces killing. You still got Asar on there and it's always going to be kind of an issue that'll be left open.

But the lineup becomes dramatically better. Absolutely. I mean, it even helps Asar when Berks is out there because when Asar gets himself into trouble, which is pretty frequent, he at least has another option to kick the ball back out for either an easy easy score or at least a little more space to to make the pass to whoever it's just i i don't understand we're getting killed on on every starting minute we play yeah we probably win the miami game if we play the starting lineup three or four minutes less they played 13 minutes in the miami game we lost by a point we lost by i think it was like 10 net

rating on on terms of our on off numbers for that starting lineup it's just it's just not not a functional group no and no it's it's just tough it's just tough to watch yeah and i'm always happy whenever the starting lineup is out that's how i know as a fan that it's that it's done so that i'm happy to see any other combination of players yeah and it's like adding burks to that line lineup, it's what he adds, which is a lot just in terms of what we mentioned earlier, just what he adds to a lineup. But it's also that Killian is not out there. And as bad as it is to have even a single guy who can just be happily left open by the defense and can't finish plays from the perimeter, having two of those guys is ruinous. It is a guaranteed fail.

Like, you can ameliorate it a little bit. If you've got like other superstar talent on this team, the piss, this starting lineup does not have that amount of talent at this point. But, you know, there's no knock against the guys out there against Dern against K. They're just not at that point. Even if they were, you don't put them out there with that lineup. You just don't do it. Even Dwayne Casey did not go this far. So I don't think Monty's stupid.

He's a competent coach. I have no idea why he's doing this. Make a point of some kind. But I'm looking forward to when this experiment ends. And I'm sorry, Killian. I liked you in the pre-draft days. You work hard. You seem like a good dude.

I'm so tired of watching you play in the NBA. So tired. And I think it deserves mentioning that the Pistons literally traded for Montemortes to take his job. So I think it's pure serendipity for him that he's getting minutes at all at this point. Yeah. I think it's about time to call time, if you will, on the Killian Hayes of it all. He's just so severely limited. because even Asar, who is also pretty much an offensive zero, like we were talking about,

is getting a lot of easy buckets and transition. A strong transition player, absolutely. And a lot of offensive rebounds. Yeah, offensive rebounds and lobs. Yeah. I mean, there are things we forgot to mention about, yeah, the transition is a major positive form too. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

It is, as expected. As expected. It's more so like Asar is kind of like a very primitive version. of Aaron Gordon right now. Way smarter. Aaron Gordon is very athletic and not the brightest. And I mean primitive in the sense that he's just a rookie. Aaron Gordon at least has established a role and knows how to play it in the NBA,

whereas like Asar isn't there yet. But the positives with the Tsar are very, very massive and the potential is quite high. But that's this whole side part. It's a side part. Yeah. And I think we can, I think I can move on. Yeah, I agree. The starting. Yeah. I expect this to change. I think money is doing something. It's not because he's stupid. I mean, he knows what he's doing. I don't know why, but there's some reason for it. Just another positive, I want to go back to like Cade for a bit. Yeah, he's had his struggles at the turnovers and whatnot.

but I feel like we're seeing him get to the rim more effectively and the shooting is better and those are two things we really wanted to see. So I think that just bears mentioned. And he's starting to get calls on free throws. Yes. Also good. My God. I mean, I don't want to say it's been all positive. I feel like he's gotten himself into some bad positions. I mean, he's not set up to succeed in the starting minutes, but even beyond that starting lineup, I felt like he sometimes has been. over-dribbling and over-complicating his his sort of life but as you said the arc on the shot looks way better the free throw attempts are starting to come they didn't come that first game where he had 30 with no free throw attempts but they're starting to happen now he looks bigger and stronger the defense is still quite good he's still a good defender and I think it's we're starting to see him emerge as an all-star. And I don't know if it'll happen this year, but it feels like what's going on offensively

is starting to click and become sustainable, and he's going to put up a pretty high number of assists and have a pretty good chunk of points. Every game on pretty good efficiency. Because Dern and him are an item. They fit so well together. Yeah, they're doing well. And Cade, I mean, as at this point, only four games,

but shot looks a lot better and he's shooting 40% from three on over six attempts per game. That's very encouraging. Yeah. I mean, we can talk a bit of a negative here is just that he continues to make some really lazy passes, not necessarily lazy, but passes that are fine in the NCAA, but are going through windows that will close very, very quickly against much better defenders in the NBA. Ill advised.

Ill advised. I completely agree. He's not, as you mentioned, he is not in an easy situation. His minutes of the starting lineup, he's getting swarmed. And the Thunder basically just sandwiched him with like as many as four defenders at a time off the drive. And you can say just pass the ball. But if they're just completely, yeah, it's not that easy. If they're completely willing to leave guys open, they are also coming from that direction.

And they are standing in between Cade and those guys with their arms up. And all of the Thunder players are long. Yes. Yeah. It's almost all of them in the entire team. That's like the Thunder MO is that they're long for their position and are just absolutely. dogs who are who just try really hard on every possession so they're not going to give you anything easy and we made it easy on them oh yes very easy ivy suffered from that too i mean there

were possessions with with either a sarah killing before yeah when he was just he was he was he was they were in diamond formation around him at the end kate it's ugly kate has i mean he's he's had some issues it's going inside the arc he's had some issues with turnovers he's also in a very hostile situation in terms of lineups. Needlessly. But yeah, he's got a, and it bears mentioned, this is basically Cade's sophomore season. And so I'm not worried.

I think there's been a lot to be excited about with him, but the ways he passes and kind of the high handle turnovers. Yeah, he actually hasn't even crossed a full 82 game season in terms of games played. Yeah, he's still at 80 games played. So extremely early going still for Cade. and he's looked pretty good.

So although a bit of a mixed bag with fouls and turnovers, I think the qualities that we've looked for as Pistons fans are starting to really come together, which is the three-point shooting and just being good. Yeah. Good and bad. We already covered Killian. He's as bad as ever getting major minutes.

He's been really, really bad. continues to be one of the most ineffectual scores in the NBA. That sucks. That's been a negative. I mean, he's shooting 32% from the field and 25% from 3, which is not much worse than his baseline. Yeah, I think, I don't think, do you think we need to talk about Killian? I feel like we've talked about it enough already.

What I will say about Killian is that I don't think it's a, a mindset issue. It is more so just a skill level, which is that he just doesn't have quite the NBA acumen to be as unathletic as he is and still be an effective offensive player. And I think that the defensive component is real. There is definitely positives to some aspects of his defense. Just some.

Yeah. And if you go strictly from the lens of it being, we're going to set a defensive tone, and we're going to try to at least hamper teams on offense, teams starting five on offense, and hopefully treadwater enough that when we bring in our bench, we'll be able to outgun them because we're bringing in Berks and Ivy rested against other teams' benches.

and we believe that they're better, that maybe we'll take the L on the starting lineup. It's just, I think that... It's not working that way. It's not working out that way, because Killian and Asar are very anti-cinergistic. It's not just that. They don't synergize well on the court together at all.

Yeah, I'm not just talking to offense. As of the Thunder game, as at the end of the Thunder game, so after four games played, that starting lineup actually has a slightly below average defense. which tracks yeah it's uh it's not only terrible on offense it is well it's a little bit below average on defense yeah so we mentioned it cute i'm talking sorry i'm talking theoretically oh i know yeah i'm just saying in terms of what's happened so far just just for anybody who's wondering how the lineup is actually done defensively but yeah theoretically yeah could be i don't know

i'd be surprised even if moni was thinking about it that way though yeah yeah it's tough to it's real tough to wear down NBA athletes. Even like NBA athletes today are the best condition and most athletic they've ever been in the league. But even back when defense, during the hand-checking era, and after they changed the defensive rules to make defense a little bit easier, you know, he got rid of, I don't even know how to refer to it back when you just had to stay with your man at all times. You couldn't play zone.

You couldn't double. Right. Even back then when you could just like grinding super physical defense, you were not wearing down those athletes who were not as athletic and not as well conditioned on average as these guys. Michael Jordan played through that era and obviously was very successful. There are some people who are just so athletic and gifted that you can't really wear them down. You can impact them mentally maybe, but actually wearing down NBA athletes, especially in their 2020s just isn't going to happen that way.

unless it's at the end of the season's playoff atmosphere guys are banged up yeah it's it's a nice thing to talk about for like media and giving the media something to sink their teeth into but it it doesn't really have any sort of legs when you actually watch the the game now also you can't play highway physical defense anymore you just get called for fouls constantly so it's not like you can you can beat up uh it's not like you can just beat up teams I mean you what I want from the Pistons is definitely for teams to come in. And even if they win, they, you know, they haven't had fun in the process because it's been a painful experience for them.

But there's only so much you can do on that, you know, on that side of things. Not coincidentally with the Pist, well, this is from having young players, but also kind of playing a very physical game. The Pistons are currently leading the league and fouls. There. And turnover. And I think turnovers. No, the spurs actually.

Oh, that's right. Yeah. But the Pistons, that's been another. negative turnovers have been a pretty big issue. Yeah. Like a pretty big issue. I mean, I was just happy that they were under 20 through two periods yesterday. Yeah.

This podcast was recorded the day after the Thunder game. Yeah. It's Tuesday night right now. Yeah. I was pretty happy that it was under 20 because the three games before was over 20. Oh, my God. It was so bad. Yeah.

It was bad. And that's, I mean, that's a combination of youth. And again, Lineups, you know. Yeah, lineups. You're going to give up a lot of turnovers when your lineups have hideously bad spacing, particularly the starting lineup. So as far as other negatives, so Isaiah Stewart is, he did well against the,

he, against the, excuse me, against the Hornets, against the Bulls. But the thunder, just like, I feel like the limitations will remain because his mobility is just not really all that great. There's not, he has, not a lot he has to offer between the three point line. just posting up mismatches. And the Thunder were just killing him when he tried to post up mismatches. So if they weren't fronting him

and just tipping the ball away, he'd get the ball and guys, because the Thunder, like you said, are very long, their players, and they're very athletic. And they would just move right back to the baseline and swamp him. And then all he can do is throw up a wild shot. So I wouldn't call it a negative necessarily.

But he's also just been passing up, open threes, which is a little frustrating. So not necessarily negative. It's just like kind of things continue. Things continue as they were. There's just he's limited in what he can do on all offense against solid defenses. I think it's it's kind of this thing where I never want to see him drive unless there is a clear lane to the basket. Oh, yes.

That is just something. I mean, it sounds like it should be obvious. But in practice, he's going, he turns away. shots maybe due to like either a lack of confidence or his somewhat slow shooting motion that he turns away shots and does not make the immediate pass out and then we'll drive a couple of dribbles into the two point range and then it's it lights out possessions over because there's going to be a turnover or worse yeah he is shooting well from three on the low fairly low volume um 43 which is obviously more than sufficient.

I'd like to see him take more. He's, yeah, he's been passing up some threes and just choosing to drive. And like you said, that's very unlikely damn well. Yeah. He doesn't have the ball handle in their creation chops to get himself or someone else open. It, it really is being hampered as well by that starting lineup being so poorly spaced. Yeah. That teams are able to just collapse on him when, when they're in that.

that situation like oh we'll apply just enough pressure that he won't feel confident taking the shot he'll drive into us we'll play swarming defense get the turnover yeah he's not kade who's who can who can sometimes pass out of that and he's not durin who's sometimes so athletic it doesn't matter or can pass out of it yeah or can pass out of it and yeah he never he should never drive unless there's a clear and open lane, and he should be looking to pass as soon as he turns down the shot. Yeah, or if you're shooting, just shoot the ball. Just let it rip.

Yeah. Get more comfortable taking those coffin three-pointers with a guy draped all over you. Because those are three-pointers that, because he's not going to be shooting movement. No. That he's going to need to make to be effective in meaningful games in the future. Yeah, they're still open threes. He's just hesitating while a guy is closing out on him, and then the opportunity goes away. Yeah, and then, like you said, he tries to do something, but put the ball on the floor.

I'd love for Isaiah Stewart to become a better handler at this point. I don't think he has it in him. Yeah, on the plus side, I know we keep going back to pluses, which is nice. He's been strong in the boards. That's good. And, yeah, better spacing will enable him to take more open threes and to get more of those mismatch opportunities down low. Though I think, you mentioned it, but you didn't mention it on the podcast, like the heat even kind of started adapting to that as the game went on and taking those

opportunities away from him. And the thunder knew they were coming and completely close them off. Oh. Like completely. Just. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think it's that case where it's like if he's your fifth best starter, it could be fine. And hopefully that would allow him to carve out that role on offense where he can hang and still provide positive value. But as it is right now, because we have such gigantic offensive negatives that he's our third best starter and it's just no boy now. Yeah. All right. So I mean, I think the final one for me is just that Joe Harris looks as, it looks as bad as we expected. I mean, he just looks physically washed. Three years ago, he wasn't the

most mobile player, but he was mobile enough. And he was a very elite three-point shooter who average in the teens and points. I think the jig is up. I mean, Joe Harris, I think just the injury, nuked his mobility, and you just can't afford to lose mobility in today's league, not when you don't have much in the first place. All right, so we're getting about up to an hour here. So why don't we wrap this up?

You got any closing thoughts? I mean, as negative as I may sound, I'm actually incredibly hyped for this team still, because I don't I didn't expect playoffs I still don't expect playoffs or even play in but it's a lot of positive signs from the key guys and I agree it's ugly right now and it also is good right now too so the fact that we're starting to see this movement towards watchable NBA basketball is all all that I really need to see yeah I'm I'm pretty desperate to have a fun to watch Detroit team. So this has been a good four games despite a lot of issues. Yeah, I think there's a lot

to be excited about too. My chief complaint right now is just the lineups aside from that. Well, and Killian, but we didn't even expect Killian to play if everybody was healthy. I don't think he's playing in three weeks. Yeah. I mean, that's another thing to be to look forward to is I know Monta and Boyan are veterans and this is a team that's very much in the development phase, but they're very, very useful veterans. They're valuable veterans, and they will add their own dimensions to this team. And that'll be a big boost. And maybe Isaiah Livers can stay healthy.

Who knows? That would be nice to. And picks to fly. Yeah. I mean, he would not even have been in position for the business to draft him if he hadn't had health issues. I think he might have gone on the weight first. But he does have health issues and they've been big issues.

But, yeah, plenty to be excited about. I think we covered a lot of the positives, The main negative for us was just the lineups and, you know, a little bit in the way of growing pains. So, yeah, I'm happy for the most part, aside from the lineups. I'm happy what I've seen for most of the players. And, yeah, there's a lot of positive takeaways, even very early on. And we still got 78 more games basketball to play in the regular season. And maybe, just maybe.

Don't bank on it, possibly. Maybe a play in game or two. And maybe if we're really lucky, the Pistons make the first round. But that's a lot to hope for. going from a 17 win to a playoff team. It doesn't be almost unprecedented. It's a lot to it for. In any event, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

And one more thing, very important. There could be another 83rd game. Remember, this is the first year of the midseason tournament. Oh, right. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Right? We have those very ugly jersey and floor combination to look forward to.

That's true. Yeah, I forgot about that. All right. So anyway, what's, let's uh let's you know call it wraps on this one uh price is always pleasure to have me on the show thanks for joining yep thank you for having me absolutely dude all right folks uh so as always thank you for listening i'll catch you in next week's episode