Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 173: Contextualizing a Frustrating Start to the Season (and Troy Weaver’s Job Security)

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

This episode discusses another frustrating early season, plus some segments on Troy Weaver's job security, Cade Cunningham, Jaden Ivey, and lineups. 

Welcome back, everybody who listen to another episode of Drive Into the Basket. I am Mike. I hope you are doing super, super well today. Posting on Thursday, and my goodness, I feel like sometimes I just make a habit of explaining away why I'm late posting episodes, actually. Believe it or not, I do feel pretty guilty when I'm late past the usual Wednesday morning time. I was planning on recording on Tuesday nights. It felt a little bit down on the dumps after the game, didn't want that to bias. you know what I spoke about so I decided to record on Wednesday morning and post then

after which I made the spectacularly ill-advised decision of exercising at 1130 at night and got an absolutely horrendous night of sleep just a little bit of background this isn't really much background I've got an awful issue with perfectionism and this isn't like you know in a job interview when you're asked what your faults might be in as an employee and you're like oh I want everything to be perfect I care too much it's kind of kind of for me that if I don't feel like I can do something like at a really high level, sometimes I just won't get started on it until I feel like I can do that, which may have happened, or who knows,

maybe I just wouldn't have been able to put out really very good, a very good product yesterday at all. So anyway, here I am. All that aside, let's talk pistons. So let's speak on big picture stuff, just a little bit. And this isn't by any means going to be a doom and gloom episode. I try not to do those in the first place. But I get that a lot of Pistons fans are feeling very frustrated right now.

And I have my share of frustrations as well. And this is the thing. Sports are what anybody makes of it. There's no right or wrong way to be a sports fan. And so don't want anybody to tell you that you shouldn't be frustrated. I mean, if you feel frustrated, you feel frustrated, and we Pistons fans have had a very long road. You know, whether you have just been watching since, for example,

example, the Pistons got the first overall pick and took Cade. I mean, it was a super exciting moment. You know, hoped for it to be a turning point for the franchise, and it may still be. Or whether you were watching from the Blake Griffin days when he had that big season in 2018, 2019, you know, the best season that he piston has had since Grant Hill in the early 2000s, or was that the late 90s? Or if you've been watching since the Van Gundy era, which had, you know, one sort of good point when it looked like the Pistons were really, you know, on their way to becoming a decent team. They were super young with an exciting core, and of course that went down to tubes. Or if, you know, my goodness, you've been watching since the late stage, Dumars era, or even before that,

there has been a lot of frustration and precious little excitement and, of course, very, very little success for a long time. It's been more than 15 years, well, 15 calendar years, since the Pistons last one-a-play-off game. That was against the Boston Celtics in 2008. And that was about four months before the Chaunty Billups trade. So, and just even in the last few years, I mean, it's been a rebuild. There's been a lot of losing toward that end as the Pistons have been focusing. I mean, they deliberately bottomed out, which exactly, which is exactly as they should have done, in my opinion, to try to build through the draft. And there have certainly been times in the, these teams have not been built to win for the last three seasons.

they've been built to have a lot of youth. And, you know, if they end up winning, I know we were told in 2020 before the start, or was it in 2020 or, yeah, excuse me, I don't know what I'm saying. Of course, it was in 2020, before the start of the 2020, 2021 season that the Pistons would have been fine making the playoffs organically in the next few seasons, but it was not their goal. A high draft position, of course, was the goal that if everything had come together and the Pistons were suddenly a playoff team, I'm sure, you know, with potential, I'm sure the org would have been thrilled, but I would guess that they judged that to be very low probability.

So these teams were not built to win. That was not the priority. Losing, I'm sure, was something they knew would be happening a lot of, and then that was a good thing because you wanted those high draft odds. And this has just been the situation for the Bistens over the last three seasons. And it can get wearing absolutely when it's enjoyable to watch your team win. And this rebuild is happening for a purpose. The losing is for a purpose. the not focusing on just a mad dash toward being a team that can maybe make the first round or the second rounds possibly like the pistons have been doing had been doing for a long time absolutely has a purpose but it's been a long time i mean we're about to enter the

excuse me we're just getting to the end of the fourth calendar year of the rebuild which really kicked off at the beginning of 2020 and i know that there was a lot of anticipation the last three seasons. For example, let's see what Cade can do in his rookie season. And at the beginning of that season, of course, was frustrating because he came in completely cold because he had missed the vast majority of training camp. He had missed all preseason. He was not in game shape. And he was coming into the NBA, you know, as his rookie for his first action. And it took him a little while to get up to speed, really honestly about six weeks until like close to the end of November before he came online. And I mean, I think that there was no real hope of the Pistons.

anything like a playoff team in that season. Again, still very young, still much more potential than actual, you know, production in the now. And actually, no, I remember Cade saying, and that's at the end of the season that he thought the Pistons were going to make the playoffs that season, he didn't realize how hard it was to win in the NBA. But we certainly saw flashes in the late stages of that season, just a lineup that hopefully, you know, had some, you know, had a good future ahead of it. And then we came into the next season. Things go, you know, there's a lot of excitement about that season. Things go wrong pretty quickly. You know, Kate only played 12 games, and then he's out for the season. And just the team doesn't really have a ton of firepower.

Things start slow. The season really devolves into, like, not altogether that enjoyable to watch, particularly, you know, in the late stages of the season. And the Pistons, I think, one, I don't know, like four or five games, you know, out of the last 41. And I was tough. And then we come into this season. There's a lot of excitement. Cade's back, you know. Ivy's going to his second season. There was a lot to like about what he did in his rookie year. And, you know, Sir Thompson is in, and, you know, you bring in Monti Morris. You know, you've got what looks like, you know, decent roster. Like, decent is relative in this sense. But, you know, let's see what Cade can do. let's see what Cade and Ivy as a parent can do. We get a new coach. We've got some good veterans on the

team. You know, Sart Thompson, let's see what he can do. And then we come in and there's a two in 10 start. Kate is struggling. There's been, you know, some controversial usage of Ivy. And it's just losing again and again, you know, we're starting two and 10 here. And I completely get why there's a lot of frustration right now. And I'm feeling a certain degree of frustration as well largely about the coaching. But I think it's worth contextualizing all of this. And like I said, I'm not disputing why anybody would be frustrated at what's going on. I mean, there's a certain amount of fatigue in this equation as well. Just that this has been going on for a while.

It's like how long should a rebuild last? What should we expect? And I'll get to talking about management a little later in this episode. But here's the thing about this season. It's been 12 games. And that's a significant portion. the season. I feel like it can almost feel like these last years are just blending together. Like this was just, it has been one extremely long season of the team losing a ton of games.

So that when we get to this point and the team has another slow start, it's like, it just feels like more of the same that that's just been happening over and over again and, you know, to a degree that's accurate. To another degree, it's still very early in the season. Yes, the team is missing some key veteran players. Kate is coming back from an injury that had him out almost all of last season and required surgery. Of course, season-ending surgery. He's going to take, I think, some time to get up to speed. You know, Duran has been out to a very strong start to the season.

This is just my speculation, but I feel like he did not look the same after he tweaked his ankle. And I don't know why they were even playing him game after game when he didn't look good at all compared to he just did not look like himself. So in any case, you know, he started falling flat. Now he's out until presumably until he gets better. But that's a loss. Ivy has been out. You know, Alec Berks, you know, for better or worse, that's one of the shooters in the lineup.

The Pistons have been without three of their best shooters in Blayon and Berks and Montemortez. This is a team that could be significantly more respectable. Circumstances just haven't been very kind to this stage. You can also look at the coaching, which I think. I think Monty Williams, who is no fool, has, for whatever purpose, making a point or whatever else, been doing things that are not really conducive to winning. Like, what's the backdrop for this season, let's say? We went in being told that this was going to be a season in which the Pistons were going

to prioritize winning. I think that that was kind of relative, because development was always going to be a big part of this season. And I think it was more just that the Pistons weren't going to sacrifice as much for the sake of development, sacrifice as much for winning. Excuse me, let's put it. So let me put that more clearly. Weren't going to sacrifice winning as much for the sake of development.

Now, at this stage, I mean, the notion that they're prioritizing winning at all is kind of a farce based on how Monty is coaching, particularly with his lineups, particularly with the starting lineup, which again, all that I've talked about. I think it was a couple episodes ago, and then I'll go over a little bit more. I'll wait on this episode. But that part is frustrating, too. It's like he is doing things for whatever the purpose is. I don't think it's because he's an idiot by any means that are actively working against the team winning. And, you know, the frustration for that, I think, is, again, just multiplied by where the rebuild stands.

It's been the primary frustration for me this season so far. just, you know, when is enough enough with this, whatever point he's trying to make. My point is, though, when it comes to this season, I think what's happened so far, like the injuries and Cade struggling, whatever, I mean, things shouldn't be treated as an excuse, but they are factors. These are relevant factors. It is still very early in the season. We were about one-eighth through it, a little bit more than an eighth. And while it may It just, I think it feels a whole lot longer because of how it has been for the Pist, you know, just because of how long this rebuild is, has been, and how long it's been since the Pistons are really winning games. But there's plenty of season left.

And though I think the Pistons have, you know, in terms of, and I know that I'm, I've always been on the fringes of this and thinking that if everything came together, the Pistons could maybe challenge or maybe make the plans this year, I think you lose this many games early on that that possibility is substantially less at this stage. but things we could see a considerably more enjoyable product in the not so distant future, hopefully. So just something that I think is worth thinking about that it's been pretty bad so far. I don't think that's going to last a great deal longer. I could be wrong, but I think that we will see the product improve, even if I would say it's fairly unlikely that the Pistons are going to be a good team this season. I mean, I think that's an expectation that I think would be kind of outside the bounds of what we have evidence to support. I think that we will see at the very least is significantly more enjoyable product in which the team is not having struggles on a game-by-game basis and winning very, very few games.

I think the Pistons at this stage, if things have been different in terms of injuries and in terms of the rotations, though who knows what the starting line it would have been, if Monta-Morris and Blyan have been healthy. though I mean there would have been in effect on lineups in general that's just some very useful talent to have on the team that's having the floor rather I don't think the pistons would be would be a two-in-10 team right now I think they would have squeezed out maybe three or four more wins so you know stay the course I think we'll see a better product on the four pretty soon might not be a particularly good product but I think it'll be a much improved product so I've been asked to speak a little bit about Troy Weaver who's in the fourth season of his tenure with the pistons and where he stands.

And when, you know, is it now or if not, when should it be in the future when Troy Weaver is potentially on the hot seat, just, you know, in terms of when does his job, you know, when does his future with the Pistons in his position come into question? I don't think that what we've seen so far this season is, you know, is enough to hold against him. Again, we've had some slow starts. We've had some absences, you know, both on the part of. of the veterans and some youth.

Monty Williams is doing his thing, whatever it is. And it's still very early. Also, I think that's an operative thing. So as far as when does Troy end up on the hot seat? I would say if the Pistons still haven't made substantial strides by the end of next season. Now, I think that some excuses perhaps are made for Troy that aren't necessarily reasonable. Like, for one, like, yeah, the Pistons did start out this rebuild without much. I mean, you look at the Thunder who had an enormous amount of assets to trade away to kickstart their rebuild.

And the Pistons didn't have anything like that. You know, they started out this rebuild with Blake Griffin's deadweight contract and just very, very little veteran talent that they could trade away for draft stock or, you know, or for other young players. And that's not ideal. At the same time, teams often don't start out with that much. You take the Rockets, they really didn't start out with too much. they actually, you know, owe picks to, I mean, they have picks from, from the Brooklyn trade, you know, from sending James Harden over to Brooklyn, but they also owe picks. Those haven't been, those haven't been owed yet. That's coming up this season. They also owe picks to the Thunder, the Russell Westbrook for Chris Paul. So, you know, future assets, they didn't really have much in the way of tradable future assets either. And James Hardham is really the only guy that they got is sort of returned from. And then the Nets don't, I mean, they don't, they don't, they don't really have the greatest in terms of in terms of draft position. I think they'll continue to be a

playoff team. So just not starting with special assets. I don't think that's necessarily something to excuse if Troy Weaver is, if the team is still really struggling next season. I mean, there has been some just straight bad fortune, like particularly in the way of Cade missing his sophomore season. You know, that's some development missed out on. That's some improvement it missed out on. I'll tell you what really hurts from me for Troy Weaver and what really I think set this team back from the start was the 2020 draft, which originally looked weak, but has turned out to have some pretty strong talent. Now, Troy ended up having three shots in the draft. He had pick number seven and traded for picks 16 and 19, had access to some good talents. And frankly,

the draft was a flop, you know, barring something very, very surprising happening with either Killian Hayes or James Wiseman. I mean, just basically the return on pick number seven, a future first that is tying up the team's draft picks at this point until 2029. And Luke Kennard and four seconds at this point is one role player. That'd be Isaiah Stewart. And maybe two if Killian really takes further steps, make significant further steps. So yeah, that's the return. One role player and a great deal of missed opportunities. Now hindsight is 20-20, sure. At the same time, if you are a general manager, you are a talent evaluator, your job is to find the right talent, and your job is to identify and obtain, you know, in this case draft talents that other teams aren't. Like, for example, you know,

if we want to talk, use an example who is very, very dear to Detroit sports fan, Steve Eisenman in Tampa. And I learned recently, by the way, that that kind of When Eiserman wanted to move in to move up from assistant GM into a lead general manager position, Mike Illich tried to promote Ken Holland basically out of the GM position so that Steve Eiserman, who went on to become needless to say an extremely successful general manager with the lightning could take over Ken Holland's job instead. And Holland said no. And Mike Illich left it at that. And Holland went on to just, you know, the rest is history to let the team atrophy.

Whatever the case, you look at Steve. Eiserman who found very high-level talent outside of the first round. And, you know, Nikita Kutra, for example, in the second round. Even taking Andre Vasselowski in the first round and taking goalies in the first round, especially back then, was not a common thing at all. So it was pretty rare that Eiserman would take a shot in the goalie in the first round, shot in a goalie in the first round, and he found one of the best goalies of this generation. It was just very, very good.

I think Brayden Point was also a second round draft pick. He just found a lot of good players that other teams did not identify. And if you want to be successful as a general manager, you have to target that talent. Other guys missed it to is not an excuse. You know, if you just want to say, well, we're fine with our GM being just kind of mediocre in the draft. Cool, but you want your GM to be actually good in the draft. And Troy Weaver had three chances in that draft. A lot of very good talent in that draft came after pick 19.

But you even start with pick number seven. Now, was Killian Hayes an unreasonable pick? No, I argued for Killian Hayes back then, actually. drafts I mean we had access to even less draft material than the teams did of course that was COVID draft though I should say even for my part I thought I wanted the pastons to find their their starting point guard of the future even I didn't think that Killian Hayes would be better than like you know somewhere in the lower end of the top 10 in this position of everything cut right we're talking everything more clever and get in the basket solid midrange game that would make it easier for him to get to the basket strong three point shooting of course and hopefully that's step back three that has to had people jokingly calling him French Hardin before the draft. Whatever the case, you look at that taking Killian Hayes at number seven with talent that turned out to be much better on the floor.

Even if we're just talking talent that was realistically going to be picked at that position, Tyrese Halliburton, of course, comes up. Halliburton, who could be argued as a top five point guard already. I mean, that was a major miss. I mean, that's a guy who could really have jumpstarted this rebuild and who liked the Pistons, and there were a bunch of teams which he did not want to go to. He wanted to go to a team where he could be a major piece. It could be, you know, a major part of helping build a team that had been struggling up and do a contender. That's why his agent told several teams,

I can't remember. There's a video in which he was talking about which teams that he was willing to go to under the other teams he did not want to go to. And the teams he didn't want to go to his agent made that very clear. That's why he ultimately fell to Sacramento. Detroit was one of the teams he was interested in playing for, so that's not the reason that they did not select him. They just wanted Killian Hayes. You look further, even like further on in the lottery, Devin Vassell has, who was actually taken before Halliburton. He's probably not the lead initiator the Pissons we're looking for, but he appears to have a strong future as a scorer. And you look further on outside the lottery, guys whom Troy Beaver had access to three times. There was Desmond

Bain, who is now one of the league's elite offball options in the absence of John Morant. He's averaging like 25 points per game. He's an elite shooter. The Pistons, he said, called him twice. So that almost certainly would have been for pick 16 and pick 19. Ultimately took Isaiah Stewart and Sadiq Bay. All respect to Stewart, whom I love, Desmond Bain is a better player than those two. So, you know, credits of the front office, credit to Weaver, they saw the talent. I think that almost makes it a little bit worse that they saw the talents and they ultimately decided on two safe pick role players instead. So that's a miss. And it's not, again, it's not like, well, he fell the number 30, so you can't blame him.

Like, it's the job of the GM to hit in the draft, particularly, you know, outside of the upper reaches of a round. And so the front office identified Bain as a talent, you know, to their credit, I suppose, who was worthy potentially being taken in the middle of the first round. But they ultimately passed on him. You look further at Tyrese, who's having a fantastic season, a guy who, you know, you might think, and, you know, this could be a reasonable thing to say that, okay, they'd already drafted Killian Hayes' might draft another handler. Well, I mean, if you're drafting a guy at number

19, it's maybe not going to be the worst thing in the world, especially since, you know, their questions, can Maxie be, you know, a lead guard in time? In fact, he played very effectively next to James Harden while Hardin was there. He was, he was a very effective offball player. So Tyrese Maxie, who looks like, you know, he has a very high ceiling in the NBA at this point, had three chances at him, had three chances of Bain, even look like it, it at a guy like Jaden McDaniels who is going, you know, looks like he's going to arguably, arguably already is one of the elite three-and-d players in the league at three chances at him. Even guys like Emmanuel Quickly, whom you could argue is better at this point than anybody

to any of the three guys, the Pistons drafted. It's just like Weaver had chances at very high-level talent. They could have restart. They could have kickstarted the rebuild. And that draft he blew, even the secondary proceeds. When you trade Sadeeke Bay for James Wiseman, who hasn't even been able to crack the rotation. on this team, you know, who lost the preseason battle to Marvin Bagley himself is not a very impressive player and has looked terrible when he's been on the court. Who knows, maybe the Pistons

will keep him on a cheap contract and continue to hope that he will improve. There are a couple scary things, you know, when it comes to the talent evaluation. I also came out of this draft. Like, we have heard, and again, we've heard this from, you know, Amari Sankoff, needless to say, a very reliable source that Weaver was, excuse me, that Wiseman was at the top of Weaver's draft board in 2020. That's a little bit frightening. Part of me hopes that, I guess I could just ask Omari about this, but I, but I've yet to do so. Part of me hopes that it was just, okay, Wiseman is at the top of the board of guys whom Weaver

thought might be available at number seven. I doubt that's the case. Probably would have been specified. And also, Wiseman was pretty much going in the top three. I mean, that was just kind of a given. So does that mean that weaver, if the Pistons had been picking number of one would have taken James Wiseman, you know, a very unproven center over, you know, potential superstar talents like Anthony Edwards and Wemelabal at much more valuable positions. I hope not.

We heard that he was a very big fan of Patrick Williams, Patrick Williams, who has amounted to nothing so far. Yeah, he didn't miss some time due to injury, but that was just in his, in his sophomore season. You know, he looked like he was kind of putting things together a bit last season was still just a 10 point per game score granted on a team with two very high usage players in Sack Levine and in De Mardoros. But, you know, with the guy you pick number four, you kind of want to see more than that by his sophomore season, excuse me, by his third season and is really struggling this season. Again, very early on.

But I know that, of course, the Bulls were looking for more out of him than him coming into his fourth season and starting out the season, averaging six points per game on 33% on the field and 27% from three. So those were teams, you know, those were guys whom he didn't draft, but whom he was interested in, who have just things have not gone well. I mean, they have not been good products in the NBA four with things have been different with the Pistons. Who knows?

I think, who knows? But they certainly haven't looked good so far. So I've talked a bit about this. It's basically that there have been some opportunities that Troy Weaver has missed. You could argue that if the Pistons had drafted Halliburton, you know, you wouldn't have had a chance at Cade. if Cade turns into a superstar player, then that will have had merit. But yeah, just that part just hurt. That's an example of an area that he has blown.

The Pistons, he went on, you know, he built a team that was in position to have high draft lottery odds. And the Pistons ended up, you know, thanks to them being in that position, they got that 14% chance and got the first overall pick. And Cade was just the pick. You know, that was just Cade was going number one. I think that was absolutely the right call. between his abilities as a player and his capacity as a leader.

But let's say the Pistons had gotten bad lottery luck, the likes of which they pretty brutally experienced this past summer. You know, who knows whom we'd be cheering for it, you know, the Pistons selected at number six. And, you know, yeah, that would be bad luck, but it would be contingent in that situation for a general manager to make do anyway. You know, it would hurt,

but you've, if you want to build a contender out of nothing, you have to make some very adroit moves. It cannot just, you know, sure, it can be. If you get accepting, just you get exceptionally lucky, it can be just, hey, we're going to build through the draft exclusively. But let's say a lottery doesn't work out for you. Yeah, you've just got to make some adroit moves on the side. And let's look at Troy Weaver's Reclamation projects.

Unless you think that Marvin Bagley is going to make it, and I continue to see Marvin Bagley is a significantly less than his stats player, with low IQ on both ends, can score ably around the basket, but isn't much of a creator. can't shoot, bad defender, doesn't pass. It gets bodied on the boards by a lot of centers who are bigger than he is. Does a pretty poor job of boxing out sometimes and gets pushed around down low again by beefier centers.

Unless you think that he's going to be a success, every one of Troy Weaver's reclamation projects has flopped or unless we see major improvement from James Wiseman. He's made some good trades, you know, like, for example, like Jeremy Grant for Jalen Durham was great. Grant costs nothing but cap space. Jayland Durham looks to have a high ceiling. Thanks, Charlotte, by the way.

Thank you, Michael Jordan for going with Williams instead. Jordan was always about the win now guy. And also didn't want to have both of those picks because they wanted to save cap space or avoid the luxury tax, presumably. So, I mean, that is one of those good moves that you want to make as a general manager. And again, he's made some good trades. Alec Burke's, solid veteran. Blam Bogdanovich, solid veteran, Mani Morris, solid veteran.

These are guys who aren't really on the timeline for a successful team. Just my point is that let's say you get to the end of next season and things really still haven't improved and it's not due to circumstances outside of his control. At that point, you know, maybe he finds himself on the hot seat. And I would say he probably will find him on the hot seat if it's been five seasons of a rebuild and there still hasn't been significant improvement. At this point with, you know, where we're just 12 games into the season and there have been some circumstances outside of his control. you know, the injuries and some absences. No, I don't think he's on the hot seat at this point, nor do I think he should be. But ultimately, you do in this position, have to produce some success. So if that still hasn't happened, if the Pistons are not on a significantly better trajectory by the end of next season,

I think that you might find the Pistons with a new general manager come 2025. But at this point, do I think he should be on the hot seat? No, do I think he's necessarily done a great job? No, I think that he's done somethings well and he's done some things poorly. And then as with more or less any general manager, some things that have not gone well have, it should be noted, not been entirely in his control. Let's talk a bit about Cade. Hot button topic, of course. He is struggling to start the season.

As I mentioned, I think it's worth noting that it's not easy to miss an entire season. Have surgery also that causes you to sit out an entire season. Have surgery that means that you cannot train, that you just really have to slowly get yourself. You can't, like, train for actual encore action, you know, not full-tilt action. You have to work yourself back slowly. And I don't know if, you know, if it feels different to have a metal rod now in your leg, I couldn't tell you. It's never happened to me. But it's not easy to miss a whole season.

It's not easy to have to basically get back in a game shape fully on the fly. And who knows? I mean, he hasn't really looked like himself mentally. I talked about that last week. I don't think that's going to last. like he was he's always been a little bit turnover prone but as a rookie he was nowhere near this turnover prone and just made better decisions and looked like he was playing more in control i think you gave it time i think he i think his situation certainly i just his situation i guess that he missed an entire season

and he's having to get himself back into where he wants to be on the fly now two things because I've seen a lot of both sides of this argument. Number one, that K'd, you're just playing horribly. And the other that K is playing in a terrible starting lineup that sets them out to fail. I think two things. I think nuance, I think it's worth looking at a middle ground in the situation, which is that, number one, yes, Kade is not being put into a position to succeed. The starting lineup is a complete abomination that should never have seen the light of day in the NBA.

It has far too little shooting. It has far too little spacing. He's the only creator. And it's far too little athleticism as well. Yeah, he's the only creator. And he gets swamped on his way into the interior every time because defenses know that he's the only creator. They don't have to respect his teammates as shooters

and they don't have to respect his teammates as off ball movers. So in the starting lineup, yes, he's absolutely being put into a position in which he is going to struggle. And that's not helpful. Yes, it makes it significantly more difficult for him to get to the basket. it makes him, it's significantly more difficult for him to operate in the interior in general, and it's far from my deal. So I'd say, yes, that is true, certainly. I'd also say that Cade of his own accord just needs to be better. He is not playing particularly

well. He started off shooting well from the perimeter. That's fallen off. He is not, you know, he's struggling in many situations to get to the basket. Again, I know that the spacing is, is an issue there, but he's also just not doing a particularly great job of it. He's not shooting well overall, he is making a lot of just bad passes, frankly, just bad passes that he was not making as a rookie. So just the scoring has been below par. Again, if he had spacing, it would be a lot easier for him to attack the basket. But the scoring is below par. The decision making is below par. So I'd say both of these things are true. It doesn't need to be, oh, just Kate is terrible, period. Or not terrible, but Kate has been playing really badly, period. He is also being put into a very

difficult situation, and for no reason. I'll talk about that in a bit. I think there's definitely a middle ground there. And again, I think it's still easy in the season. Excuse me. Excuse me early in the season. Not easy in the season. And I know I've said that again and again, but I think it's worth keeping in mind. Now, if Kate is still struggling like this after 30 games, I might start to get a little

bit concerned. If he's still struggling like this after 50 games, you know, I'm going to start getting more concerned. Though some guys, it really takes until season four before they take off, who knows. But that's not a worry. I know that any of us want to have. One more thing about Cade, I was asked this by a listener, about the level of his defense. So I think Cade is a smart defender.

He's got good size. He's got good length. He's not the most athletic, but I think that he can hold his own. And, you know, in most matchups, he has looked slow to start the season. And again, could very, very easily just be a product of conditioning. And I hope that improves because if he's already lost the step during that, to that surgery. I mean, he wasn't the most explosive in the first place, then there might be issues. I think in terms of his instincts and his size, he can, yeah, he can hold his own in most

matchups. I don't think, and yeah, I think we'll see more of this. Like, we saw it as, excuse me, we'll see getting more better data as the season goes on. And we saw in his rookie season, I think that he is just fine as a defender. And I think we saw in that truncated sophomore season that he is just fine as a defender. I think that he will be, you know, again, provided he hasn't lost mobility and I think it's vast, it's just far, far too early to to conclude that he has, but, you know, by any means, you know, so if he's, if he's got his previous level of mobility, I think that he can be a slightly plus defender. You know, that's how I felt since, you know, since he came into the league.

And that's fine. If you're a slightly plus defender who's not a liability in any situation, great, that's perfectly fine. You know, you'd love for every player to be a major plus defender, but that's, of course, I would say not particularly realistic. And if he can be that slightly plus defender, even just an even defender while carrying a very heavy offensive workload, then, you know, fantastic. You know, and I think that he can.

You know, just to just answer another question as to if how, you know, the amount of work that he's putting in on defense is compromising him on offense. I would say not directly as such. He really has been falling off, particularly in fourth quarters, where he just looks to be completely and utterly gassed, just exhausted. but I think that's just a product again of just getting back into proper condition, you know, returning his conditioning to where it should be. A player at the age of, you know, at his age should not need to budget energy to, you know,

to work hard on offense. I mean, it's not like he's being asked to guard the opposite, you know, chase around the opposition's best player to the, you know, to the maximum extent of his ability and then, you know, and then carry a super heavy load on offense. So, no, I don't think that's. factor. When it comes to why he's getting gassed in the fourth, again, I think he's still not back into, you know, 100% proper game shape. Monty Williams is also riding him really, really hard, you know, to a fault. I mean, Cade is carrying an extremely heavy offensive workload.

And I'll use this to this opportunity to transition. I'll talk a little bit more about the coaching waiter, actually. But there have been times, especially in recent games where it's like Kate is in the fourth, he's gassed, he just does not have much left in the tank. He's struggling. Monty continues to keep him out on the floor. Monty continues to put a very, very heavy load on him. Yeah, he's basically the only creator at this point. But, you know, why are you doing that? You know, is it to, you know, try to make him grow as a player? I mean, again, it's another situation where you can be fairly confident that with how tired he obviously is and how much he's struggling, that he's not going to contribute to wins there. So that's been a little frustrating.

All right. My goodness, I'm already at almost 40 minutes, though, in editing. I truncate out some silences, so it's probably like closer to 36. So let's visit some other subjects, Jaden Ivy, who is back by what we refer up was very, very sick. But didn't get many minutes in his first game back got more minutes and I believe finished the game against the Hawks. Jaden Ivy, I mean, again, it's early in the season. I know it's been very controversial that he's been brought off the bench. Wait and see, give it time, but Ivy certainly adds a dimension that this team utterly lacks. number one, having a second real creator, also an elite athlete who can create.

Just the benefit of having a guy who can attack effectively off the drive, who moves very, very fast off the ball, who can catch it in flight and get to the basket very easily, who is actually by no means half bad as a shooter and is able to get himself open by moving very well off the ball. But just having that athletic creator, which is something that this team, you know, most teams have an athletic creator, Jaden Avi is more athletic than just about anybody else in the NBA. He's a, now he is an elite athlete, put it that way. I'm not saying he's like a top five athlete in the league. That's a pretty major distinction, but he is an elite NBA athlete. This

team has still not many very athletic guys, let alone, you know, the highway athletic guys who can actually handle the ball that is a conspicuous absence on the team. And so Jaden Ivy just, you know, particularly think about, you know, replacing Killian in the starting lineup with Ivy, it just adds a dimension to the starting lineup, which is lacking in all sorts of areas on offense that it wouldn't have. So it's been good to see him back. He's certainly putting in the effort on defense. He has, I would say, a high defensive ceiling, just given that he's strong, he's long, and he's highly athletic. The question is, of course, the decision-making. But Jaden Ivy doesn't need to be an elite defender, you know, as long as he can be a reasonably good defender

and provide what he provides on offense, then it'll be a valuable player. You know, just be a reasonably decent defender who is not a liability and who can be counted on to make decent decisions on defense. And as I've said, even if Ivy has his struggles on defense this season, I'm not going to get concerned until, you know, partway through his third season. James Wiseman only bring up because I know there's a certain amount of frustration seeing Sadiq Bay come in with the Hawks and provide some value, even though he struggled for most of the game and took a lot of the sort of dumb shots we saw him taking in his third season with the Pistons.

And so providing defensive mistakes too. And so providing some value versus James Wiseman who was providing absolutely none. Wiseman, like I said, I wonder what the Pistons are going to do. After the season, you give him like just a two-year deal, like a one plus one, one plus team option at a very reasonable salary, just in the hope that, yeah, okay, maybe you can develop, just given more time, given more seasoning. but my goodness does Wiseman look bad. Just still, you know, the guy does have a very good NBA body, you know, super long moves pretty well when he is positioning himself properly

and giving him the opportunity to, you know, to move to the right spots of the floor. It's very athletic and so on. But my goodness, is this decision-making still absolutely horrid. And please, please, please, Monty Williams, do not let the guy post up ever again. So understand the frustration there. that continues to be a bit of a befuddling trade. I continue to wonder why the team,

just why Bay went from, you know, very valued piece for the future of the team to off the team. And I can, you know, like what happened, we didn't hear too much in the background and how much of it was really just wanting Sadiq off the team and him wanting an extension. I don't think was, I can't think that was a significant factor. Because, like, was he going to demand an extension

or I want to be traded? That sounds pretty unlikely. he was not actually going to be a free agent until 2024. The Hawks did not give him an extension, so he's still going to be a free agent, whether they make him a restricted free agent by giving a qualified offer or a qualifying offer or not. And just this is a slight A side.

It's often, it's just common parlance to refer to a player that's, you know, he'll be a restricted free agent and such and such. A player is not actually a restricted free agent until he gets the qualifying offer. So how much of it was actually Weaver just having a chance at acquiring James Wiseman, a player whom he had been very high on in the 2020 draft. Would that have been enough to make him trade Bay on his, you know, just on its own? I don't think so, but how much of it was that opportunity versus how much of it was actual

issues with Sadiq Bay, and there were some issues. You know, there's no doubt that the floor absolutely fell off from his defense. He went from serviceable to completely terrible. His perimeter shooting fell off to a degree, to a significant degree. he was just taking a lot of dumb shots. Who knows? It was just an odd situation where you had a guy who was a very valued piece of the future. And by all accounts, you know, just stayed great teammates who was wise beyond his ears.

And then suddenly was just became a terrible defender and was making stupid decisions on the court. But nonetheless, it happened very fast. But I see the frustration at Bay still provides some value to another team. And Wiseman is providing zero to this team and is kind of frustrating when he's on the floor. and in some situations, Monty Williams is choosing to distribute minutes such, even with Duranaut, distribute minutes such that you see Isaiah Stewart taking a backup minutes at center and Wiseman doesn't see the floor at all. We've seen some games where that's been the case. Kevin Knox, I just want to give a shout out to. Well, shout out. I hope you're listening to this podcast, Kevin. I doubt you are. I was a fan of Knox last season. I'm not saying, you know, big fan of Knox. Here's what I like about Kevin Knox. I mean, he, you know, when he's shooting well, He basically, he'll shoot the ball well, he cuts the basket, and he scores in transition, and those are valuable skills. And he does absolutely nothing that is outside of his lane.

I mean, you'll rarely, if I don't know, ever see Kevin Knox do anything that he's not good at or just take a stupid shot or make a stupid drive that's going to get him just into a bad position. He'd be basically, he's given his job and he goes out and works hard and does not deviate from it. you know, he has his issues in terms of defensive decision-making. He's definitely not like a guy who's going to be a smart playmaker on offense, but he's been good for the Pistons. You know, it's, you know, if you can continue doing this, I'd like to see him somehow find a way to stay in the rotation. Montemortes, whom we've heard is, well, we haven't heard this. This is what we know is now as it is questionable for the next game. That would be a big boost to get him back. I don't

know if they would boot Killian from the starting lineup right. way, please boot Killian from the starting lineup right away. But that would just be a boost. You'll have another guy who can create off the dribble, smart player, take away, you know, take on some of the playmaking load, shoot three is at a high level. Cool. That's going to be very helpful to this team, or very helpful to this lineup, brother. Let's talk Killian, who has been improved in terms, you know, I think is a better way of putting it. Yeah, he has been improved, no doubt. Of course, that's very relative, given that he was one of the worst players in the NBA on offense in his first three seasons. You know, granted his first season was

truncated, but the last two seasons, arguably the worst big minute player in the NBA on offense. So has been improved. Still sucks. Had a couple of big games. But here's the thing about Kalyan. On a good team, he would not be getting minutes. It would not be worth giving Killion minutes on a good team. You look at him as a handler where he's very limited. Yes, he's a very intelligent passer and he's a very gifted passer. He is not a guy who can break down defenses at all. He's just going to make passes off the short driver around the perimeter. It's not a guy who's with teams who have better handlers who can do that, who can penetrate, breakdown defense is also score at the rim,

you're going to want that guy to be handling the ball. You're not going to put the ball in Killian's hands to do far less. And, of course, as a shooter, he's had some good games. He's still unreliable. He's still hesitant. Again, my belief about Killian, if he can become a high-volume, reliable three-point shooter, he can stay in the NBA.

Barring that, I don't think he has a path to remain in the NBA. And, yeah, right now he is still a negative value player. He is less of a negative value player than he was before, but he is still a negative value player. So what do the pistons need him to do? Well, it's not easy for him to get open in this lineup, especially in the starting lineup for obvious reasons. One of those reasons, however, is that he is not a fast mover off the ball. But when he gets the ball, it's like don't pass the thing, take the ball and shoot it, you know, and shoot it with confidence and shoot it with alacrity. And you've just got to be taking him and making these open threes on volume.

That's what's going to keep him in the NBA. I don't think there's anything else that's going to keep him in the NBA unless he abruptly makes a massive improvement in terms of his ability to attack off the drive. He has been accepting more contact. You know, that's kind of for me a little bit of a double-edged thing. It's a positive because now he's willing to drive into contact and he doesn't chronically avoid it. On the other hand, it's like, were you really just waiting to do this until your job was definitively in danger? Whatever. It's a positive development.

Is it enough? No, he's still terrible getting in the rim. And defense is still don't take him seriously. I guess at least at this point, they don't, they can't just know. that he's going to avoid contact and treat him as even more of a joke off the drive than they, you know, than they do right now, even knowing that he's willing to drive into some contact. He's definitely not going to drive at a rim protector. You see how the rim protectors treat him.

They just stand still at the top of the restricted area, and that's that. They don't need to do anything else when it comes to Killian. They know he's not going to beat his defender. They know he's not even likely to attack the rim protector at all. He has treated as a joke off the drive. You know, it's one of his downsides. So once he, you know, if he is put into a secondary role in which he can be open for these threes and just play solid defense, though, again, I continue to think that Killian Hay's defense is overrated by some. I think that he is a strong defender when the play slows down and he can just harass his opponent.

It becomes substantially less strong when his opponent is an athletic player attacking him off the drive. Killing can certainly get beaten in those situations. and when it comes to situations in which he needs to chase explosive players around screens, forget about it, he's toast. So situationally strong, somewhat situation, some situations he's somewhat weak. But overall, solid enough. And if he can be solid enough on defense and also be a smart player on offense who can critically have that very important skill, particularly important for him,

just given his inability to really contribute all that much elsewhere on offense, to shoot 3s on high volume and be reliable on these wide open catch and shoot threes, then he can stay in the league. I think that's the only role in which you will stay in the league. And I will say, no, there is no situation in which a team will just say, oh, well, Killian, we're just going to surround you with shooters. No good team is ever going to want Killian Hayes in his current state. No good team is going to look at a player who has major flaws and say, oh, well, maybe we can

compensate for that. Teams don't want incomplete players. Teams want complete players. They don't want a team. You know, good teams the least of all want players who, whom they will. have to compensate for and killing you really have to compensate for at this point just in terms of his weaknesses as an attacker and his weaknesses as a shooter that pull-up mid-range shot useful to have definitely not an end in itself and he's he's inconsistent on that anyway but that's that's for almost

any player unless you're like Kevin Durant that that pull-at mid-range shot is just going to be a tool that you use when it's what's given to you and you can't get anything better. All right finally let's talk lineups and let's talk what could change what could be done differently because this starting lineup sucks when is enough enough what is the point that moni williams is trying to make in fielding this lineup that was doomed from minute one and whether it's bagley or durin was doomed for minute one excuse me from minute one it was an abomination is an abomination that should never have seen the light of day in the NBA because it completely just ignores all the necessities of being a successful lineup in today's league. And it just ignores what a lineup needs to have in order to be

successful in order to have any hope of keeping up on offense. So let's go over briefly all the things that are wrong with it. Far too little shooting. Modern NBA offenses are built around generating open threes and hitting those at a good percentage. This lineup cannot do that. It doesn't even have a single high-volume reliable shooter, a little-on-one who's going to be able to get open off of the ball. The lineup often runs two non-shooters, if not three. I mean, again, like the center, whether it's Bagley or Duren, can't shoot. Killing is not a reliable shooter. Asara is a complete non-shooter. Stuart's the only guy who is really able to, in that lineup, was really able to hit a high percentage, and he often passes up shots, and he is not so much able to get open, is that he only

takes these shots when the defense leaves him open. Teams in the NBA will almost invariably avoid fielding even a single non-shooter on the perimeter, let alone two, let alone one with the non-shooting center, let alone two with the non-shooting center. You see where I'm going with this. Then comes to spacing. I mean, this team has absolutely terrible spacing for the same reason. I mean, the shooters don't need to be respected. There's not a single guy who is going to, you know, who is going to just be guarded habitually by defenses. There is not a single guy who is like a strong shooter from, in terms of an off-ball movement perspective as well. Even Stewart, who can shoot, doesn't really contribute to spacing because he is very slow

by the standards of his position. He is not going to get himself open off the ball. He gets open if the defenses leave him open. And being able to hit that shot is still a big deal, but that really reduces his ability to space the floor. You also have far too little athleticism, and this is something I refer to as whatever. I mean, maybe nobody else uses this term, who knows, as athletic spacing, basically the ability to beat your opponent off the ball. This lineup has nobody who can meaningfully beat their opponent off the ball, except for perhaps a Sarr Thompson, who is not doing it on the perimeter because he's not a shooter right now.

So it's very, very easy for defenses to just keep up with the guys in the floor. It's very, very helpful to be able to run faster and jump higher than your opponents. In this case, just run faster. or at the very least match them in that, which this lineup just cannot do, period. Makes it that much harder to wrong foot defenses for guys to get open, just to generate yourself good opportunities. As far as little creation, only Kade can do it.

Or Killian, if you consider the odd mid-range pull-up jumper. And, you know, the spacing is one of the reasons why he's getting swarmed. The, you know, the bad off-ball movement or the lacking athleticism I'm referring to, but also because defenses know that he's the only creator. You know, it's just, it's a lineup that is set up to fail on offense, and it's a lineup that was guaranteed to fail on offense. It's a lineup that was unnecessary. Also, you had Alec Burks at the beginning, games 1 through 5.

He could have started, you could have started Ivy. Even if you think that what Manny is doing with Ivy makes sense and some kind of ambivalent on it. You know, you could have started Berks. When Burke was out, you could have started Sazer. Berks is back. You could have started him instead. It could have started Sazer instead.

is still going with Killian. I don't know what Monty is trying to pull with this lineup. I don't know what point he's trying to make with this lineup. Enough is enough. The lineup is absolutely terrible. It was guaranteed for minute one to fail, and it has been an unequivocal failure, like an unambiguous unequivocal failure.

And just when is enough enough that you stop allowing this to happen? It has never been a necessity. The injuries have never made it a necessity. It has never been a good idea in any way, but for whatever, I don't know, culture building, projects, whatever it is that Mani is trying to pull by fielding this lineup. Whatever it is, the pistons are 2 in 10.

Please pull the plug. Please pull the plug. I do not want to see another game start with Killian Hayes in the starting lineup. And again, just having that one non-shooter on the perimeter hurts, Asar is almost certainly going to remain in the starting lineup. But you can make it a lot less bad. You're fielding two non-shooters in the starting lineup on the perimeter. And again, K decided his struggles as a shooter, but he's almost invariably attacking on

the ball. So it's less of an issue where play finishing and in spacing are concerned. It's still an issue. He's got to be able to shoot his threes. But you're playing both Killian and the SAR, two guys who are spacing liabilities. You're just compounding the issue that much. So if you're keeping a SAR on the starting lineup, you can at least ameliorate it. And you could have ameliorated from day one by putting a strong shooter in a shooting guard, whether that is SAS or Burks.

Could have done it, did not. That is an easy, immediate way that you can improve the starting lineup. if you don't want it to be Ivy, who I think would also be a major improvement in the starting lineup, even if his defense remains questionable. I mean, just this lineup is so completely and utterly, absolutely horrible and guaranteed to fail on offense, and it just doesn't have to be this way. And we'll see what happens in terms of lineup changes when, you know, as the veterans return, well, Berks is already back.

So as Monty Morris and Boyan Bogdanovich return, though we still haven't heard anything about Boyan's timeline. And in fact, just as I'm recording this, we, I'm seeing some news from Omari. Monty Williams has said that he's considering, excuse me, making changes in order to give Cade more spacing in the starting lineup. It's like, cool. I don't really understand. I think Monty Williams has a habit of being just deliberately obtuse with the media, of just being kind of not the most genuine. Like when he says, for example, oh, well, Cade's attacking to the interior and they're swarming him. It's like, you know why that's happening.

You know what's happening. because you're putting him out there with lineups, particularly the starting lineup, in which defenders have every incentive to swarm him. And in this situation where Moni says he's considering making changes to give Cade more spacing. It's like, you know why you're putting him out there with no spacing. So, yeah, I think he's not the most genuine with the media. But hopefully we see that change in this upcoming game. And finally, just a couple more questions that were submitted by listeners.

And like I've said, I always love hearing from you guys. You know, please be in touch, whether it's on, on, Discord on Twitter. And by the way, I'm actually finally making an effort to start producing some content on Twitter. So be on the lookout for that. If you haven't followed, I'm at TudabasketPod. Always love hearing from listeners. Any feedback ideas for future content, questions, you know, always love to hear from you folks.

So any surprises from the Pistons or in the league, it's the only real surprise this season. Thus far has been Marcus Sasser to an extent. He had a few really big games. of course that his shooting wasn't all that sustainable. He was shooting well over 50% from the floor and from three-point range. But just the guy who, like I expected that he would just be a shooting specialist. He has been better off the dribble and as a secondary playmaker than I expected. But beyond that, surprises not really all that much for the pistons thus far.

And if we're looking elsewhere in the league, I think, number one, it's still early. And things are a little bit wonky early in any given season. I would say that the timber wolves have been a surprise. You have some strong talent there, and the Rudy Gobert trade, again, continues to be a bit of a befuddling thing. He is one of the strongest drop defenders in the history of the NBA. I mean, give the guy all the credit, he is a spectacular drop defender. And during the regular season, that's still quite valuable. Moving Carl Anthony Towns to power forward isn't quite as good.

Carl Anthony Towns is still one of the most versatile big men scorers of all time, just in terms of all the things he can do. He's pretty weak on defense. Anthony Edwards has a superstar ceiling as a scorer, though I don't think in terms of, as a creator for others, he's, you know, quite up there as far as, you know, one of the leagues. These days, even as a superstar score, you know, for the majority of guys, you've, you know, you're not playing a one-man game. You're still, it's more, it's become more and more important for, for high-volume creators to also be able to create for their teammates. And Anthony Edwards, I think, is extremely talented as a score. do I think that he's going to be the number one guy in a championship team? No,

but I love to have on the Pistons. Yes, the Pistons have been number one in the 2020 draft. He absolutely would have been my pick. So the Timberwolves have been a bit of a surprise. I mean, you also have Jaden McDaniels, who is one of the elite three-ndy guys in the league. They're a little bit short on depth, and Rudy Gobert in the playoffs is significantly less valuable than Rudy Gobert in the regular season because he has forced the switch and attacked on the perimeter a great deal more. He is a decent switch defender. But you're pulling him out of the paint and, you know, where he does his best work. And also decent switch defender versus game-changing drop defender.

There has value drops. But part of me is happy to see the Timberwolves. Their fans are pretty long suffering, much like Biston's fans. So it's positive development over there. They started scorching hot on defense to an extent that was never going to be sustainable. They've fallen off a bit there. Their offense needs work. Do I think that they'll continue to be one of the top teams in the league?

No. They're eight and three right now. I think that as the season wears on, they'll probably end up in the middle of the pack. The Sixers, Tyrese Maxie, has been fantastic. They didn't skip a beat moving on from James Harden. I mean, he's just been great. Definitely a surprise there. Boston's lineup, which could have gone well or could have gone poorly. It's going to be largely dependent upon health has been very good. A four-out lineup, excuse me, a five-out lineup in which everybody can shoot and very strong defensively as well. I mean, they've been one of the biggest winners. so good for them. The Mavericks are doing well.

They're winning purely on the force of offense. Their defense sucks. Can Kyrie stay healthy? There's your question. The Grizzlies, so the Grizzlies over the last couple of seasons, have actually been pretty good, better without Brants than with him. They did this on the basis of still being able to run a functional offense, being considerably stronger on defense without him,

and just being a team that was in general more than the sum of its parts. Unfortunately, when you trade out Tyos Jones for Marcus Smart, Tyos Jones, who is a very capable, not spectacular, but very capable lead guard, who is just good at running in an offense and very rarely turns the ball over. It turns out your offense struggles a great deal more. Missing Stephen Adams and Brandon Clark, both Brandon Clark, not Brendan, really hurts. You know, when you have to start Xavier Tillman, who is, again, all respect to Stu, I think is just completely playing the wrong position, is one of the very few starting power forwards who is worse than Isaiah Stilman. Stewart at that position in a starting lineup. I mean, it's just it's a top situation for the Grizzlies, but I think what they did in the offseason is ill-advised. Still, I didn't expect them to start two

and nine. And those have been the surprises of the season for me. The Rockets as well, I suppose, but you just never know with the team that's elevating itself from very, very bad the season before to six and three after nine games, if that's realistically sustainable. Or I should say, likely to be sustainable. So that would actually be it for the questions. I realized I answered the other one earlier on the episode. So that'll be it, folks, for this week's episode. As always, I want to thank you all so much for listening. I will catch you in next week's episode.