Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 205: More Summer League Takeaways + Marcus Sasser Season Retrospective

Episode Date: July 31, 2024

This episode examines some further takeaways from the final two games of Summer League and recaps Marcus Sasser's rookie season.

Welcome back, everybody to another episode of Driving to the Basket. I'm Mike and hope you're all doing great. Back from a week's hiatus, I sat down last week to record this very episode and laid such a big egg that I was just not willing to post it and then just didn't get around to re-recording it. It's the offseason where the dog dog days at the off season at this point with Summer League over and about two and a half months until preseason beginning. So I'm going to give myself a little bit of a break for that, I suppose.

So in any case, yep, Summer League over. And now we just have like Rico Hines and Rico Hines and RICO. And some other random, even more glorified pickup than Summer League to look forward to until preseason finally rolls around, which seems like it's a long way in the future. You know, as Pistons fans for a long time, we've had like the five, five and a half weeks between the end of the season and the draft lottery, and then the five and a half weeks or so, between the draft lottery and the draft,

and then after that, blessedly, it's only a couple weeks until Summer League. But, you know, after that, we've got the same months everybody does until the regular season begins. And, of course, we don't even have anybody in the Olympics. And as I'm sure all of us are, aside from those of you who just enjoy suffering, I guess.

And, well, that's a joke because nobody really likes watching tank year after tank year. last year was not meant to be a tanker, and there is a space for tanking. Absolutely. Still maintain it was the right thing for the pistons to do, even though Troy Weaver turned out to be a complete catastrophe, and the draft lottery odds were incredibly unkind of the pistons. Just want to note from all that I've seen of, oh, you know, this is what happens when you tank.

I mean, this outcome, the outcome with the pistons dropping from two to five and then one to five and then one to five. I think it was like 10 percent, 10 to 15 percent. I haven't run the odds in my head, but excuse me, I haven't calculated. regulated the odds. I know they're in that, exactly rather, they're in that arena. It was just very pistons-like thing to happen. Of course, it didn't matter as much in this last draft with the draft being so weak that that Risa Shea went number one. That was a sad moment for me to watch because it's like, my goodness, is this draft such a complete joke? Maybe I'll eat my words

and we'll get some really good players out of it. Hey, back in 2013, went and it was looking super, super, week and we got Janice out of it and we got Rudy Gobert out of it. Of course, they were picks I think like 16 and 28. I can never remember where Janus was picked. Oh, I remember about where Janus was picked was Mark Cuban trying to be the smartest guy in the room and saying, no, I want us to trade out of the first. We have a little bit of extra money to throw a Dwight Howard and, you know, just actually genuinely literally over the objections of his general manager who said, you know, Mark, this guy's the next big thing. We got to draft him. We just, we have to draft him and Mark Cuban said no, you know, no, I want, you know, the decaying corpse of

Dwight Howard who just had back surgery and ultimately would, you know, sign with the rockets and go downhill pretty soon after that. And of course, was a complete man-child at that stage of his career. So, uh, in any event, hopefully one of these days, we'll see the Pistons, well, put it this way, the Pistons will not be in the draft lottery. And, you know, for those of us who will still watch the draft lottery. There will be a whole lot more, excuse me, less time between the end of the piston season and the beginning of the draft lottery. So looking forward to at some points in the near future, hopefully having much shorter off seasons and more meaningful ends to the seasons rather than, again, this was the right thing to do in these past seasons, just tanking as hard as you

possibly can in the last month. Absolutely the right thing to do. Not all that enjoyable to watch, especially this last season. Like I've said, I didn't watch. a lot of like the last 10, 15 games of this past season just because it was too excruciating and there was barely anything worth watching, you know, barely anything worth watching for. And, well, a little bit. I mean, I'm going to be talking a little bit more about Marcus Sasser later on this episode and he did get a certain amount of run late in the season. But, I mean, for everybody, these are pretty much worthless minutes and obscenely bad lineups under an outrageously bad coach whose name has been lost to history.

I can't remember what his name was. Who was coaching the Pistons last season? Man, it's just already slipping from my memory. Like I've said, I would like to think about that as little as I possibly can for the rest of my sports watching days. So in any event, talk more about Summer League because I actually saw, well, it was in particular with Ron Holland, but I thought there was some significant takeaways from,

I think it was the last two games. I think I recorded last episode after game three, and I said, okay, well, I don't think anything's really likely to change. so I probably won't talk about Summer League again, but I'm going to. I guess I feel like that just came off a little bit imperious. Let me rephrase. I feel like there's more to talk about because I feel like we could queen a little bit more in the way of takeaways in the last couple games.

And we'll talk a little bit more about the roster and really what remains to possibly be done. And then recap Marcus Sasser's rookie season. So let's head straight into talking about Summer League. I kind of debated in my head whether or not to do this. I think there was some complaints to be made about the coaching. I decided I really, in this moment, I've decided I really don't feel like doing it. I'll just say with regard to Jared Jack,

he was every bit as bad as I expected him to be, and I hope that he was only there. Rather, I hope that he was there only because J.B. Bigger's staff just hadn't had time to get somebody else in place who made more sense to have coaching that roster. I hope Jared Jack, is gone by the beginning of this season.

And that's partially because he is part of the old regime. And fairly or unfairly, I just don't want any of those guys to stick around. But also having watched him coached in Summer League twice now, I mean, ugly. And this relates partially to just the fact that even though Summer League is really glorified pickup, this Pistons team is playing more glorified. They were playing more of a glorified pickup style than the average team because Jared Jack just like in last summer league couldn't really be bothered to actually coach.

And, you know, so that was really no fun. But it also relates to Ron Holland, who it took until game four for Jared Jack to actually start giving Ron Holland half court priority to any degree at all. Until then, it was just Marcus Sasser and Dennis Jenkins really dominating possession. And, you know, it takes, it should take, you know, about one-tenth of a rocket scientist's brain to really be able to deduce that Marcus Sasser is not going to be. be able realistically to attack people off the dribble, even at the summer league level. You know, just, you know, give the guy a game or two or whatever.

Dennis Jenkins, you know, two-way caliber point guard. And whatever the case, these guys should not be dominating possession to the extent that Ron Holland, whom, you know, you want to get some time on the court doing meaningful things, both to just see where he is because, you know, he spent a lot of his G-Leaks season injured. And also just to get him time doing stuff before the season. begins. Again, it's going to be, it's two and a half months until training camp, until the guy is really going to be able to play meaningful five-on-five. But instead, Jared Jack spent the first three games just largely consigning him to the perimeter. So, I mean, this is where I'm

transitioning into, into Ron Holland and not complaining about coaching. And I'm really, really hoping that this upcoming season, the Pistons finally gets one of these, you know, fabled coaches who doesn't make a ton of easily avoidable mistakes. You know, we'll see. But Ron Holland, in a first three games just didn't really get to do all that much. He on offense, like in the half court, he would get the ball in position to attack in pretty awkward situations. He spent a lot of the time being the guy on offense who was moving around the least, just hanging around in the corner with his hands out. Does that sound familiar? Yeah, unfortunately it does. and yeah just just not really being part of the half-court offense very much and certainly not getting priority

and that fortunately changed in games four and five and we saw quite a bit more of you know what ron holland's well it's summer league i should always qualify that summer league again glorified pickup don't take away too much from it because the quality of the competition is a complete joke compared to the NBA and these teams really aren't coached like i don't remember how i always like to use this as an example. For those of you who were, if any of you were watching Summer League back in 2019, Bruce Brown's second Summer League, in which he was still pretty darned inefficient. But he at least was, you know, able to be a pretty good playmaker and that, you know, do a decent job off the drive and, you know, and creating buckets. And it's like, well, it didn't translate to the NBA,

not only because the defense was a far better than the NBA, but also because in Summer League guys aren't sagging off of you and punishing you, for example, for not being able to shoot. So, yeah, shouldn't take away too much. But I just felt like we saw with Ron Holland, just certain things we'd heard about and, you know, prior to the draft and seen in the G League. For one, his motor, for example, like the guy is an extremely hard worker who just really never takes, never takes possessions off. He's very fearless when he's attacking the basket.

He looks for contact. He does not shy away from it one bit. and, you know, on defense, even in the first three games, this was the case as well. I mean, he's just a really hard worker. The guy had a reputation for having a very high motor. You know, I think Pistons fans are really going to like him once, you know, once he's able to hit the court in a way in which he's able to meaningfully contribute. So he, you know, he did a lot more attacking off the dribble in a productive manner,

like, you know, attacking off the catch, for example, or attacking mismatches. Like he made Kenny Lofton Jr.'s life pretty miserable. Of course, Kenny Lofton Jr. is not an NBA player. He's way to – the guy needs to lose a lot of weight, and put it this way, if he wants to be able to play defense at the NBA level. Because Ron Holland was – you know, he has the burst and the body control and the agility to just drive past the guy and take a bump and score it off the backboard from the inside. And, you know, we saw – you know, so we saw some of that.

Of course, we saw plenty of him in transition. that's where he was strong in the G league. He was not a very good half-court player in the G-League. But, you know, we just saw him in games four and five play much more under control and sort of planned out half-court game. His shots, as I've mentioned, it's not like Cassar Thompson's shot, fortunately. I think I've mentioned, you know, how I think you can really rank shots for guys who struggled in terms of percentage coming out of their previous assignment, whether that was overseas.

the G League, the NCAA, or in rare cases, now the overtime elite. So you've got three categories. You've got guys who have good mechanics and bad percentage, like a Jalen Brown. You can feel pretty good about them coming in and doing well at the NBA level. You have guys who have a bad percentage in terrible form, like a Sarr-Thompson, and even worse, his brother. Amin Thompson can be an extremely good player in the NBA if he can learn to shoot because he's just like his brother, he's extremely athletic.

He's a much better handler than Asar. He's just got far better touch around the basket. And if he can just get the shot together, then that'll be huge. And if he had come into the draft, you know, if he'd come into the draft, the 2023 draft, already a shooter, then I'd say he would have been the consensus pick, like without a doubt behind Wemagnama and in a number one overall pick in most drafts. But his shot is just so hideously ugly. I mean, Asara's shot is ugly.

His twin brother's shot is much worse. It is extremely ugly. But in any case, so that's where you'd find Asara. And I would put Ron Holland kind of in the middle with a bad percentage, but shot mechanics that aren't broken that just need to be tweaked. Like his, his form doesn't look bad. It's just, it just needs work, which, you know, which is, of course, good to see. and again, you draft a guy with a great work ethic, and it's just, I mean, you stand a much better shot of him putting in the work, just much like a SAR, putting in all the work he can to fix the shot, and you've got one of the best shot doctors in the league. We got to see some of Holland's athleticism as well in transition in particular. He's not like a super explosive athlete, per se. I mean, he's got a good first step. Well, let me rephrase that. He's not like a jump out of the gym sort of athlete, but he's just an all-around,

solid athlete, you know, like I'd say really in every category. He's got, you know, he's got a good, you know, pretty good first step. He's got good agility. He's got good body control. He can take a bump pretty well. He can also, he can, he can add some strength to that frame too and make that, you know, make himself that much better in that respect. He can definitely hang, especially, you know, hang in the air, excuse me, like he's a good weeper if you give him the runway. That's true of most players, but I think he's considerably, excuse me, considerably above average in that respect and just very functional athleticism, I think, across the board, no real weaknesses. So what else did we see from Holland? I mean, I think, as I've said, it's just the guy with

where if the shot comes together, and I think he's a lot closer than most if he can shoot players. Just you couple that with the motor and the athleticism. And you probably get a solid rotation player. You're just looking ahead at that point to, and probably a guy who's going to be able to play a lot of minutes. And, and like Asar Thompson, and like, you know, anybody with this sort of, you know, with this sort of motor, with this sort of work ethic, those things are force multipliers. I mean, they take a player. They take what he can do and, you know, and they magnify the effectiveness, you know, magnify the, excuse me, the impact of those qualities. Not everybody has a really high motor. Not everybody has, you know, really good work ethic or a really team-focused mentality.

And that's another thing we saw also in those final two games is that, you know, you put Holland in more of a handling role. He's a willing passer and a decently able passer in terms of being able to find somebody who's open and make the pass right away. Now, the willing part is important because though everybody on paper in the NBA realistically should be playing a team game, not everybody really does that. Some guys just want to go get theirs. So it's always nice when you have a guy who's only 19 and he's just a guy. just not only able to find the right guy, which he was in games four and five. And it was a pleasant surprise for me, but he's also very willing to make that pass. So on defense, it was just continued to be a little bit of a mixed bag.

He's just a moment slow on some defensive process, you know, in terms of defensive processing. And even at the summer league level, just half a second is often, you know, all it's going to take for somebody to get past you. It's doubly true at the NBA level. And, you know, nothing we've seen, really nothing we saw from him with the Ignite, you know, was jumping out and saying this guy is just the doofest defensively, which some players are. So, you know, hopefully and I think probably just a matter of seasoning, as he'd have it in him to be really a, like, high level defender. We'll see.

But, I mean, you see it there with the, you know, with the screen navigation and, and just the fluidity of movements and the length, of course. And from there, it's just, you know, getting the processing going, you know, excuse me, that's a bad way of putting it, just hoping the processing coming. along. So, of course, still raw. You know, still, even on offense, just in terms of decision-making and, you know, picking his battles on drives and really learning how to better finish at the rim. And, you know, again, the defense and the shooting, still pretty raw. And I would say at this point, well, there's no reason for me to stake a claim here, but I would guess not NBA ready.

And it kind of begs the question of where he'll be next season. I think, it's pretty clear that he was drafted, that Trajan Langdon went for, like, a genuine project, like a high upside swing in Holland's because I think he just didn't really want to add another young player to the roster. So I think that kind of, that suggests that barring like an amazing leap in what remains of the offseason or some injuries or underperformances may just be a guy who at least the start next season doesn't play very much or at all. Now, is the G-League a possibility? I would say yes. It would be very unusual for a fifth, you know, number five pick to end up in the G-League. But, of course, this is also a really weak draft, like a really weak draft, you know, for what it's worth.

So, yes, he has averaged upwards of 20 points per game in the G-League in kind of a truncated season. But, again, he wasn't very strong in a half-court. the things he has to work on are on the half court. He was very strong in transition. That's where a lot of his scoring came and where a lot of his efficient scoring came. And yeah, he just has a certain amount of work, amount to work on. And it wouldn't be under the ages of the G-League night,

which was, you know, the Ignite team last season was a complete tire fire, an absolute disaster. It would be under the ages of the crews, who are owned by the Pistons and managed by the Pistons and staffed by the Pistons and who's, you know, really most important function, though in practice, this really isn't utilized by NBA teams all that much, but nonetheless, the affiliates most important function when called upon is to aid in the development of players who are under contract. So, yeah, I mean, he would be under the ages

of the Pissons development staff, and he would be put into a role, like, unlike what it was in the Ignite, where it's basically like, well, you know, you're the primary creator. You may not be ready for this role, but, you know, whatever, we need you to do this because the team is terrible, so take the ball and do something with it. He would be used in a way that would be more fitting toward what he needs to work on. And who knows, maybe it'd be a situation like it was with, with some of the Pistons youth, two seasons, well, three seasons ago now, actually, in which they were with the team while the Pistons were at home, but not when the Pistons were away. In that case, they were with the G-League team. So, you know, or maybe he just sticks around,

with the Pistons and just doesn't play many minutes, though I would think that that would not be ideal. So it's possibly he's minutes in the G-League to start the season. But in any event, it was very refreshing to see better play out of all in the last two games. It was the first three games. Like I said, I mean, it's like it's Summer League and a guy's raw. I'm not really taking too much away from it. But it was nice to have some positive takeaways because the first three games are pretty rough. Again, not really put into a position to succeed. But even if it had been all five games, I would have said, okay, you know, disappointing. I would have liked to see this team's draft pick do a little bit more just because it would have been enjoyable. So in any event, yep,

good end to Summer League for Holland. Bobby Clintonman probably, well, I would say the surprise. You know, it's not like there was really much space for a surprise in Summer League or that necessarily meant anything at all. But definitely a very pleasant surprise. Obviously, he shot it well, and his defense was kind of hit or miss. His passing, of course, was one of the highlights of Summer League. Not much more to say in these last couple of games. Like his strengths are evident. His weaknesses are evident.

He struggled a little bit more on defense the last couple of games. I think it was the game against the Knicks. Maybe it was the game against the Jazz. I can't remember, which he got torched four different times by ball watching and having his guy cut in. And with Clint, he's not the most fleet of foot. so if somebody gets a step on him, he's not going to be able to catch up. Continue to have issues just on the closeout side of things, even at the summer league level.

Like in the NBA, if you are primarily a perimeter shooting specialist, which Clinton and most likely will be just a guy who's athletic gifts or lack thereof going to make it difficult for him to really create too much off the dribble, you still need to be able to attack closeouts. I mean, that's really an essential thing. Like we see it with Isaiah Stewart and power forward. He just, I mean, he has bigger issues of power. forward than that, but that's a big one. They just absolutely cannot attack closeouts. It's

just like the ability to make the right kickout off the drive, which of course, Quintman seems like he'll be very good at, is it's a required skill in today's NBA. Again, just the requirements at the NBA level, like particularly for perimeter players. Traditional centers are kind of sticking around a lot more than I thought, a lot more than they would look like they would maybe four or five years ago when they were in steep decline. But certainly for perimeter players, Though again, yeah, even for traditional bigs, it's like, okay, well, you know, you've got to be able to do a respectable job on switches or you're probably in trouble, but I digress. Yeah, just the need to attack closeouts. I mean, it's really a mandatory thing, especially if you're not going to be providing any offense off the dribble.

It's just you got to keep up in terms of what you can offer. Clintman doesn't have the athleticism to burst through open lanes. And when he gets into the interior and has to make his way through any contact, he falls apart. he just doesn't really have the strength to make his way through it, let alone to finish around the rim through contact, something at which he was absolutely awful in the MDL, in the MDL, excuse me, and also at Summer League. So I think we saw the best, just in general,

the best side of Bobby Clintonman, whom I think it deserves mention, was picked as kind of a project. He didn't come off that way at Summer League, excuse me, but he really is kind of a project player. He was very inconsistent on both ends in the NBL he shot very well in Summer League. Like if we go by his time in Australia,

he might not be able to depend on that level of consistency from him at the moment. On defense, again, hit or miss, can sometimes play intelligently, can sometimes make a bevy of mistakes. And again, as athleticism means that if he gets a little bit behinds, then he's in trouble. He's not like a bad athlete per se, but at the NBA level, he's kind of below average. And so on and so forth.

So definitely a promising summer league from him. And I would say the most enjoyable player to watch. And some of the passes he made were pretty impressive. We'll have a little bit less space to make those with how fast lanes close at the NBA level. But nonetheless, that's obviously a skill of his. And that's a very useful skill to have, the ability to just make the right pass, you know, the quick pass and sometimes the difficult pass and just have that vision and that willingness and that ability. That's definitely a skill that he flashed and that's great to see.

So I would say even notwithstanding the fact that he's basically like fifth, even if you don't include Holland in the depth chart for forward, or technically depending on how bigger staff plays guys up the lineup, even more than that, then even notwithstanding that, again, I think is quite a bit less NBA ready than he may have looked just in terms of what he needs to work on. and consistency probably, I hope not, but speaking from past experience probably could very well be an issue early on in his career with the Pistons. So also a player who may end up spending time in the G league,

and I think that would be good for him. But also possibly a guy who can come in and play some minutes of injuries really, really become an issue. On this roster, at least, obviously with this roster that, who knows, could surprise us, possibly maybe, and especially with the number of teams that are in the east that are going to be bad this season and get vicinity of the plan possibly. But I'd say probably not. But maybe more of a chance than in some time. Not much to say about Dennis Jenkins.

Kind of a pleasant surprise. Bad inside of the arc. Not very good size. You know, who knows? You know, he's in a two-way deal. again he'll have access to all the resources the pistons have to offer and maybe can be a solid you know like depth player for the pistons next season if called upon i would say not particularly impressive but nonetheless a pleasant surprise certainly a hard worker no doubt about that and then marcus

sasser who was used in kind of a very in my opinion absolutely pointless experiments about can he attack off the dribble we know that the answer to that is no in the mb a because he just doesn't have the burst to do that. And I've been over this. And, you know, even at the summer league level wasn't able to do it because guys of the summer league, I mean, the quality of the competition is quite a bit low. The guys were still generally, it was fairly athletic. So he came in to see if he could do that. He got to the line in a way that he's not going to be able to do in the NBA because defenders are just much better. And yep, came in to see if he could be a playmaker off the dribble and ended up building the great wall of Las Vegas.

The guy had a dreadful summer league from the field. So, yeah, I mean, at this point, kind of looking to me like he's more likely to be a backup to Beasley and Tim Hardaway Jr. And windups possibly with Cade as a larger guard. Because you basically have to play Sasser with a larger guard if he's, you know, if he's not winding up as your lead guard. So more of a backup to those guys than to Cade and Ivy. And just to segue from there,

just as to the status of the roster. Of course, point guard three, third string, continues to be a question. So, you know, will the front office rely upon Marcus Sasser for that, that continues to be the question? And, you know,

will Jaden Ivy be staggered with Kate Cunningham and play, you know, the backup point guard minutes? I hope so. That continues to be a question, but I think it's looking increasingly likely. Tias Jones was signed away for a minute, minimum deal to the Sons. I'd say clearly, well, one of two things. I think it looks like that

would get, this is pure speculation. I mean, what came out was that he wanted to start. That was a big thing. Obviously, he wanted to get, you know, was probably looking to get paid this offseason. The business could have done that. Not sure if Langdon was willing to offer him the starting gig. And even if he had started, he would have been the secondary playmaker, you know, behind Cade, of course. Maybe that wasn't what Tice was looking for. just didn't want to play for another, you know, for another team that clearly I was going to say another really bad team. Who knows if the business would be really bad next season? I don't think so. I don't think they're going to be great, of course, but hopefully mid-to-high 20s and wins.

So maybe just wanted to play for a team that was better for a contender, chance of the championship. It's a big get for the Sons. It was a constricted market. You know, if the Pistons weren't willing to pay him and, you know, the Spurs went with Chris Paul and the Jazz don't. seem to have been very interested in paying him. They're hoarding a bunch of cap space to give, I think, 26 million of it to Laurie Markinen and renegotiate and extend. So in any event, so he ended up in a situation where he's playing with a lot of talents, and I don't think the sons are going to win a championship,

but he'll be able to hit the free agent market next summer, and I think the idea for him is have a strong season. and, you know, cash in, I think he's going to be 29. They'll be in position to cash in on probably his last big contract. So, or his last opportunity for a big contract. So it just kind of feels like I'd be interested to see if the Pistons were even interested. It doesn't look like it to me. They could have made him a competitive offer.

And they did not. And, yeah, there are other considerations for players beyond. It's like, yeah, the Pistons still could have paid him. They had, you know, $11.5 million thereabouts, and they could have paid him. So about close to four times what he's getting from the Suns. Well, let's see, three points. Yeah, more like closer to three times. But there are other considerations, you know, starting,

maybe winning more games and possibly being better positions, you know, just having more the role that he wants and being better positions to, you know, to cash in next season. I would imagine what he hopes are bigger contracts. But, you know, we've seen kind of mid-level players in the free agent market who would have gotten paid under the old CBA kind of get squeezed a bit, like Gary Trent Jr. signing a minimum deal with the bucks because, like I said, a couple episodes ago, you know, we've heard that teams that are not ready to go into the second apron

are being very careful with how they're spending. Well, I don't know if that was really a consideration in this case. I mean, the Raptors clearly are tanking. So, you know, he was, I was surprised, I guess maybe for him, he just wanted to get more than a mid-level exception deal, put it that way. I think I got a little bit off track there. Whatever the case, third string point guard options are now very, very limited. You've got the likes of Markell Faults, made out of glass, can't shoot, followed up a, you know, a fairly decent season in which he still couldn't shoot with kind of a stinker last season in which he, you know, regressed within the arc, which is kind of a problem and was yet again injured for much of a season after playing 60-something

games, I think, the season before. Of course, there's still not going to be a winning point guard, no matter what, even two seasons ago. I mean, it's just he's no more need. He's no more are good enough on the attack to compensate for his deficiencies as a shooter. And you have a guy who just needs to have the ball in his hands all the time. That's a problem. Also, and this was the case last season as well for the magic altogether. If he was not on the floor with Franz Wagner, who I would say, I would argue was the best player on that team better than Paulo Boncaro. Everything went drastically wrong for faults. Boncaro last year. I have a look at his on-offs. He was, the team was quite a bit worse with

him on the floor. Things were relatively open. okay when he was on the floor with Wagner. When he was on the floor without Wagner, things really, really went badly for the magic. I mean, Wagner is just a sneaky good player. I mean, all, you know, all, uh, kudos to, I think it's Welkman over there who drafted Wagner with the, with the Bulls pick. At number eight, I believe, in 2021. At the time, I thought, okay, well, that's an interesting one.

But he's turned out to be very good player, even though he does, you know, his shooting needs some work. And yeah, it was recently one of, was it three or four guys from the 2021 class counting Kade to get a rookie max extension? I think, I think it was four. Can't remember. Jalen Green is yet to get one. Yeah, Mowgli, Kade, Barnes, and Wagner. Yep, the four of them. I don't think I'm missing anybody. Yeah, Jalen Green hasn't gotten his rookie extension yet. It has until the day before the regular season begins. That's when the rookie extension window closes. So Fault's, yeah, I would say not ideal. Take away this team is not exactly flush in shooting. And you bring a guy in who can't shoot your mud, you know, you're very, very likely to have him on the floor with the SAR, who hopefully

will be a better shooter, but you can't really count on that. And Duren, who, I think is unlikely to ever shoot, and that's fine. Or Holland, if he gets minutes, or Ivy, if he's still kind of a bit of a shaky shooter. And just having a lead guard who can't run a normal offense just because he has to have the ball on his hands is a problem. So it's like your third string point guard is obviously not going to be perfect, but you want a guy who is at least not going to be stepping in there with a massive flaw that is going to kind of hurt your offense. I mean, he can still break down defenses to a decent degree, but it's just such a big weakness, not being able to shoot as a perimeter player and certainly as a league guard. And that brings us to another option, Dennis Smith Jr.,

former piston, didn't play much with the pistons, but it's basically false, if faults were a better defender and had no ability to create offense of any kinds. Dennis McJr Jr., despite his small stature and short wingspan, I mean, he's one of those small guards, the likes of Lowry and Van Vleet and Conley and so on, who is able nonetheless to be a pretty pesky and, you know, fairly good defender. Unfortunately, you know, and he's a decent pass, or nothing special, unfortunately, he is an incredibly bad score. I mean, he's not Killian Hayes level, but he's not much better either. I mean, this is a guy who I think his career true shooting percentage is 48%.

Bad perimeter shooter, bad within the arc. Just doesn't make it to the rim, no in between game. And, like, the defense is nice. But, again, that's, it's just, it's a huge weakness. Like, again, it's not Killian level. I mean, Killian made things worse in a lot of different ways. It wasn't just that he couldn't shoot and just had an awful overall scoring game. He was a complete wuss who refused to attack into contact, and defense has played him accordingly,

and yeah, he really, notwithstanding all of his other weaknesses, he made himself quite a bit worse by being an incredible wuss in the court. So it's not like that, but just having a guy who needs to step in and run your offense and absolutely cannot score, or it's just absolutely terrible at it, again, your third string point card isn't going to be perfect, but there's not perfect and there's incredibly imperfect. So I would say like I would say it's possible that we'll just see the front office if there's the availability of a low cost trade just do that. I mean if you can just send out a second round pick and get a solid third string point card because I just think that's important for this team because yeah you don't want to put yourself in a situation where you're relying on

Marcus Sasser again talk about him a little bit later something I've seen brought up Isaac O'Coro I think is being drastically overrated in some sectors. So here's what a coro is. He is a pretty good guard defender. Not quite so good at defending larger forwards. Like he really struggled, you know, against Boncaro. You can't really blame him necessarily for that because he's giving up a lot in size. So, O'Coro, I think, is, yeah, he's 6'5 in shoes. He's not very tall, and wingspan isn't anything right home about.

But, yeah, he had really struggled against Boncaro, and he really struggled also against Jalen Brown. So pretty good defender, but more against guards than against forwards. He has improved his shooting pretty much a year over year and shot 39% last season, however, very low volume. The difference between his 36% in his third year and his 39% in his fourth year was six made threes across 69 games. If he took those six made threes away, he would have been at the same percentage as he was the season before, just to highlight and underline how low volume he shoots, he shoots threes on, and also he fell apart from three in the playoffs, shot 26%. So not necessarily a reliable shooter.

A vast, vast, vast majority of his offense is assisted, really not much of a creator. Average about two assists per game. I mean, that's sure. You can say the guy's being used primarily as a play finisher next to Garland and Mitchell. That's true, but also just not a particularly good passer. And basically all told, I mean, he's, if he were the, he's not this sort of like versatile three and young athletic three indie wing. That's a very sought after sort of player.

O'Coro is a guy whom, by many accounts, the cavaliers are just not really willing to give more than a very modest salary to in a multi-year deal. And no teams are really swooped in to try to, well, who knows? We haven't heard anything about beyond just some vague, you know, Bobby Mark saying, oh, there's been a sign and trade deal really in place for a while or just waiting on the cavaliers. We haven't heard that from anybody else. I mean, the Pistons could, like, swoop in at this point and offer him four years starting to line. $11.5 million. I don't think they would do it. You know, why wouldn't the pistons do that? I mean, just the sheer overlap in terms of, yeah, ASR and obviously Holland are not as far along, but you're really looking for a guy who's,

you know, after a year of four not really per se a reliable shooter from the perimeter and just kind of occupies that shaky, you know, that athletic wing who plays pretty good defense, but is pretty shaky on the shooting side of things and the creating side of thing. You know, I think they just, I mean, you can't really keep all three of them, and I think they're more just banking on Assar and banking on Holland. The core, I would just say, isn't anything special at this point. Might just take the qualifying offer and hit free agency next season, though he's likely to continue to have a small role with the cavaliers, so who knows if that'll do him any good.

The center situation, I'd just like to underline that Paul Reid is not that great. I know I've seen a lot of talk that, oh, he's paid $8 million. You know, why would the Pistons pick him up at that? that salary if they're not planning on like moving Isaiah Stewart and using Paul Reed as their backup and the answers because, well, two, you know, two answers to it, number one, the Pistons had the cap space, had to reach the cap floor. And this was a good use of that to find a third string center behind two pretty injury prone centers in Isaiah Stewart and J.L. And excuse me, and Jalen Duren in a, in a free agent market, you know, excuse me, in an offseason in which

the free agent market for centers, you know, particular third string centers, is very barren. So they got a good, they got good center depth, and yeah, that's, I think that's just it. He's also fully non-guaranteed, so they can waive him at any time. They could wave him tomorrow, and his salary would come off the books. So literally, this was an absolutely no risk move. How it works is his cap hit during the season, both for purposes of cap hit and purposes of salary matching will grow after every game, you know, based on his game by game salary. And then I believe it's January 14th or 24th, I can't remember. But Dayton, mid-ish January, all non-guaranteed salary becomes fully guaranteed for the rest of the season.

Right now, he, well, you could, I think the business could choose at this point already to fully guarantee his salary. But whatever the case, he can't be traded until a month after the regular season begins. That's the case for any player who has claimed on waivers in the offseason. So just does the fact that they acquired him that he's being paid $8 million mean that he's going to have a major role, you know, whether as a center or I don't think he really has the tools to do this, his power forward. Nope. I'd say that pretty strongly, you know, pretty confidently.

The fact that he's paid $8 million is pretty moot to a team that looks like it's going to go into the season with cap space available. It's a very rare thing, but it looks like it. Yeah, I think he's just depth. Depth who will almost certainly end up playing if he's still. with the team because it's very unlikely, unfortunately, that Isaiah Stewart and Jalen Duren will be healthy throughout the entire season. And if Jalen Duren goes down, you have two centers who played below the rim, and I'm not too excited about that. But I think it would have been hard, well, actually impossible for the Pistons to find a suitable athletic big on the free agent market,

you know, to play third string center. Um, yeah, from there, I mean, obviously changes could be coming to the roster. There is that cap space. There is always the possibility of some sort of trade or maybe nothing will happen. It's a good question. I don't, I would be surprised if they're not still working the phones or making it clear that that cap space is available to take on a contract or use that cap space to take in more salary than they send out or whatever else. My completely not particularly useful intuition here, because I'm basing it on zero insider knowledge, is that we probably won't see more than minor moves before the regular season begins, but that's of extremely limited value because it's not based on anything.

And we don't even know. I mean, we know that the goal of the season is to be more respectable. That's going to be very easy to be more respectable than last season, you know, with a significantly more functional roster. And just by default, if J.B. Baker's staff is competent, a monumentally better coach. But I don't think they were aiming to be too good because, you know, this is going to be a development season. And for better or for worse, draft position. in what is a very strong draft at the top is still going to be enticing. And the last order of business here, and I'm just talking about this,

because looking back the situation, this is just an absurd period in business history, Killion Hayes, who signed a contract with the Nets, should be noted is a tryout contract, Exhibit 10, which means it can be waived before the season with no repercussions. Yeah, as a case of a player who, really seems to have gotten no interest at all on the buyout markets after he was waived by the Pistons. Really bad player.

And my goodness, was Killian a bad player. I have never seen such a bad player get so many chances and so many big chances again and again and again and again and again and again and again. And start of the vast majority of games in all four of his seasons in his rookie season. Okay, that made sense, especially as he was playing at the end of the season. and he came back relatively late from that injury. But it was just a completely an utterly bizarre situation that he got as many chances as he did. And we know, of course, that the front office was pointing out

moving on from him, rightly so before last season, until he was saved by a coach who not only kept him on the roster, but started him. And it started him until he was told by the owner that he couldn't do it anymore and then maintained Killian in the primary backup role, one he also didn't deserve and did terribly. or as a spot starter and primary handler when Kate Cunningham was out, until he was just to, yeah, whatever.

It was an insane saga with Killian, and just the worst sort of draft bust. Not only was he terrible, and a horrible return on his draft position, but we got subjected to watching him play for parts of two seasons and the entirety of two more, and it was ugly. And by, I think, I'm not sure if,

I don't think there's really an argument to me made that he was not the worst player to see very significant rotation minutes across all of the last three seasons. And to be honest, it's tough for me to wish him well. In most cases, I would say, like, it was James Wiseman, for example, though, I mean, he wasn't really around for all that long. I would say, okay, whatever, hope it works out for you somewhere else. With Killian Hayes, it's like, dude, and you spent the entirety of your time with the

Pistons, apparently believing that you and you alone should not need to attack into contact. You know, oh, no, instead we'll just take a pull-up jumper or, you know, bad pull-up jumper for the most part, aside from those rare situations. those rare periods in which he was hitting them at a somewhat acceptable percentage. So, yeah, generally bad pull-up, bad floater, or just get rid of the ball, or at some points literally turn and dribble away from the defender. So, yeah, his apparent belief that just he and he alone should not have to do something that everybody in the NBA does.

And again, defenses knew this and acted accordingly. He was not really much of a playmaker. He was just the passer. He was absolutely unable to break down defenses. Would he have been able to actually attack the rim if he tried? Who knows? but at least it would have kept the fences honest to a small degree. It was something he could have done that would have improved his game

and would have taken a very damaging part of his game out of it and he just didn't do it. So I'm not going to actively root for him to fail, but it's like, dude, you did not answer the bell by any means. You got to go to the NBA, team invested number seven draft pick with you, and you just played like a wasse the entire time, the entirety of your time with the team. So I don't think he'll make it.

Again, like I've said, I think he's only like a reliable three-point shot away from being a rotation player in the NBA. Do we really think that Killian Hayes is going to become a reliable shooter? I don't, but whatever, we'll see. And moving on, finally, to Marcus Sasser. And this is going to be a pretty short one. I think it was a couple episodes ago or three episodes ago. You know, one of the issues with Marcus Sasser,

just in terms of that he's just a weird rotational fit. I think it's a case on any team. This is a case in which Troy Weaver, whose strategy was apparently just to focus on two things, high character players and high-ceiling talent and just mash them together. I think you saw Sasser, oh, he can shoot and he's a high-character player. And it's like, sure, good work ethic, team-first focus, important things. But they're not ends in themselves.

If a player really has a lot of weaknesses and if Marcus Sasser can't be a primary, you know, lead guard and he has those limitations, then he's really just a situational shooter who has to play next to a larger guard. So just in terms of his season as a whole, really inconsistent role, just got some minutes, you know, early on the first 10 games of the season and did, you know, he had a few big games and then fell flat in his face. Both his minutes and roll reduced, but he also shot very poorly. And he was in general just put behind Killian Hayes for much of the season.

Didn't really get significant minutes until, consistently get significant minutes until Hayes was gone. And it was going to hit or miss. So, yeah, his role at first was, was more offball, which I think ultimately is probably going to be his best role, just in terms of shooting threes or attacking closeouts and hitting mid-range jumpers, which he did sometimes well and sometimes not well. He also had some situations in which he was able to do well as elite handler. That, as I've said, I don't need to rehash this dependent upon him hitting mid-range pull-ups because just between his burst and his verticality and his size, all of which are bad and his handle,

which is nowhere near enough to compensate for his poor first step and, you know, poor top speed and poor verticality. It just makes it really hard for him to get to the rim. He took about 10% of his shot attempts at the rim this season. That is extremely low for a point guard, you know, for a guy who's, you know, spends a fair amount of the season on the ball. And we just often waste a lot of time dribbling it around because he couldn't actually get through anybody. Yeah, just his, if he can be this sort of Lou Williams-type player who can hit these mid-range jumpers enough to keep defense is very honest and needing to throw guys at, you know,

throw guys at him around screens constantly, and he can hit his threes, in particular his pull-up threes. Then, yeah, you just run him around a bunch of screens and that frees guys up. And if he can, you know, he has to hit his mid-range pull-ups because that's all he can really do in the interior and those floaters. And it's a difficult shot profile. But if you can do that, he can score in the interior and he can make place for other guys. He's still going to have to find his efficiency on the perimeter, though, because, again, you can't have mid-range pull-ups unless you're insanely good at them, which very, very few players are.

This can't be, you know, this can't be your primary shots. It's just not efficient. If you're shooting 50% on, well, if you're shooting 50%, okay, that's fine. And for the most part, that's the efficiency threshold. That's not really what you're looking for as a good score. Whatever, that's a different discussion. So what did he do well? On offense, he was very inconsistent.

At times he was a strong three-point shooter who could shoot, shoot pull-up threes, shoot off the catch-er-on-screens, and catch at the perimeter, attack a close-out, and again, either hit one of those mid-range numbers if he was shooting them well or hit a floater, because he rarely, rarely got to the rim, or often make the right pass. If he got hot, he got hot. If he had a bad game, he was pretty useless. And again, those games in which he was hitting his mid-range pull-ups and his pull-up threes, in those situations, you know, when he's playing on the ball, he actually did an okay job as a lead guard because if you can make those work then you can do that but uh there were quite a few

more situations you know especially when you actually get a lot of playing time late in the season which he wasn't hitting them and then again that's very easy for the defense and the interior you just play him one-on-one and if he's not hitting those shots he's useless and you don't need to throw any extra coverage at him so nobody could just play everybody man-to-man and the rim protector goodness knows doesn't have to worry about anything because sassar's not even going to get to him what alone you know what it won't actually be a challenge to score there so that's kind of what he did well ends what he didn't do well. He's got a very conditional game if he is an on-ball player. If he is an off-ball player, then he's largely just a shooting specialist who has a limited ability

to attack close-outs and has to play next to a larger guard. What he didn't do well? Pretty much talking, yeah, again, probably already talked about that. Sorry, I have a list here, and I end up doing what he didn't do well on offense before. What he did well on defense. What he did well in defense is work hard. And again, small guards who weren't overly explosive. He did a decent job. He's definitely a hard worker who doesn't back down from anybody, and he's got decent instincts. Now, what he didn't do well is just that his size is a massive disadvantage, and some guys just scored over him. Also, some guys, even his size, were able to get past him fairly easily.

Because, while he doesn't really have bad lateral mobility, I mean, he has quite a short stride. He's got average lateral mobility, and a 6'7 wing span is, you know, is decent at his size, but is not enough to really compensate. like there are four things again that if you're not just one of these guys like the you know the conways and mcconnells and van fleets and used to be kail lowries and and so on you have to basically have some combination of these four things or was it these three things i don't remember um you know outrageous wingspan like donovan mitchell or reggie jackson uh really good athleticism uh strength I think a lot of, you know, like Marcus Smart-esque or whatever else, strength that just keeps you from being bumped too easily. Or goodness, I think there were four of them, but I can't remember the last one. Whatever.

I said it a few episodes ago. Basically, Marcus Sasser has none of these things to help him compensate on defense. He can work as hard as he likes, but he's going to get bumped really easily by guys stronger than him. He's going to get scored over by guys who are taller than him. Guys who are stronger and taller than him are just going to be able to drive to the outside and basically push him to the inside and score over. him. Guys who are posting up against him are going to be able to back him down and score over him. He's just, he can try as hard as he wants. And he's, again, he's no fool on defense, but there are

many situations in which he's just going to be outmatched. So Sasser should be mentioned, came in at 23. And as, you know, what probably a relatively finished project, a product, excuse me, that's not always the case, but it's very often the case. The players who come in later just don't have really all that much more upside. His size, of course, and his, his, his, is, his, his athleticism are obviously not going to improve. And so I think it would have to be graded somewhat differently when you're coming in at that age, just in terms of expectations of being able to perform them and then contribute immediately, which he didn't really do all that well when he was playing in an off ball roll,

even rather when he was playing in an off ball roll, often struggled in an on ball role as well. You know, I give Sasser a C-minus. It's not like he didn't really bet. but he just and he did suffer from you know the same inconsistent role and inconsistent usage and just not being used necessarily to his strengths that you know the vast majority of the players in this roster suffered from but he also is just very inconsistent again at the very least is an absolutely mandatory thing to marcus sasser be a danger from the perimeter and he was far too inconsistent at that looking forward again it's hard to see his route to minutes on this team

unless he just takes a really big step in executing on a very difficult shot profile. Again, some guys can do it, and it's just not common. It's very difficult to pull off. It's very difficult to be an effective lead guard who cannot either shoot at a really high level or break down defenses. If you can't break down defenses and get to the rim as a lead guard, you just have to be a very good shooter inside and outside of the three-point line. So tough to say

But hazy future Weird draft pick And yeah It's like It's just hard to see a fit for him on this team Again even as an off ball player He is very line up dependence Because you really don't want to line him up

Alongside another small guard He's kind of a shooting specialist shooting guard In a point guard in undersized at this point, point guard's body. Players are just getting taller and taller. Ten years ago, nobody cared if you were six, two. Now you're a shrimp. And the game is played in such a way that every, again, every advantage,

every disadvantage of an opponent, excuse me, you can exploit, is exploited. It's just not, it was 10 years ago, it was nowhere near scientific to this degree. It's funny looking back on, for example, like the 2004 Pistons team, which was the championship team, which, of course, 20 years ago, not 10 years ago. But just how little guys cared about the efficiency of shots. Like, it's not like, okay, well, the difference between the percentage on a long two and a three is not all that big, but, you know, the outcome is, of course, drastically better from shooting a three versus a long two. But we don't care. We'll just take, like, a fade away from three feet inside the arc.

It's just, it's remarkable how little players, you know, just how little emphasis was put on shot efficiency. And how little emphasis was put on exploiting guys with obviously, exploitable weaknesses like size, though size also the NBA is just getting taller and taller. I think it was Pat Riley who joked a while back that eventually the NBA is just going to be a bunch of athletic six eight guys or something like that. I don't know if he said it exactly this way, but six eight guys shooting threes. And clearly that's not going to happen. But just these days, if you're six one, six two, you're a shrimp. And that's just the calculus of it. And guys, I think Chris Paul is probably less than six feet. And it was still more.

largely fine until he really got washed up just because he was he's extremely smart one of the smartest players of all the time and just those smarts and this hard-nosed style that allowed him to still be a good defender who was not easily exploited but that's clearly you know not the case anymore but yeah now if you're in if you're on six feet tall I mean you are really a shrimp at the NBA level it's funny looking back of like mugsy bog's who was able to make it work fairly well again some time ago this is quite a while back but You put him in the NBA today. He would get stomped on.

I mean, he would be unplayed. I mean, he was a smart defender and really strong, like physically strong. And a hardworking defender and a pretty good one these days he would be a hopeless defender. Because what are you going to do when, you know, the team switches a six foot eight, six foot eight forward on you. Sorry, Mugsy, you're screwed. You know, there's nothing he could be done for you. Like even Nate Robinson, who was sixth man of the year, I think,

I think it was 2010, so 14 years ago now. It's like very athletic, extremely strong. But I know one of those mean tweets addition, you know, from, I think is Jimmy Kimmel. They were like, you know, Nate Robinson can't defend the pick and roll. You know, he can't see over the pick. And, you know, he laughed and said, well, yeah, that's technically that's true. But there's also kind of like just a brutal reality to it that is just too small. So in any case, I could talk about the evolution of the NBA and,

you know, all the, all the pretty remarkable ways it's changed in a, you know, relatively short time. But that's probably for another episode. So that'll be it for this one. As always, folks, want to thank you all for listening. Hope you're all doing great. Catch you in next week's episode.