Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 221: Player Grades at the Quarter Mark (with Anthony of Pistons Talk)

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

This episode, featuring guest Anthony of Pistons Talk, evaluates -- and hands out grades to -- the team's major rotation players at (slightly past) the one-quarter mark of the 2024-2025 season.

Welcome back, everybody. You are listening to another episode of Drive into the Basket. I'm Mike, and I hope you're all doing great today. I'm joined today by Anthony from Pistons Talk. Anthony, it's great to have you on the show. I'm glad we could finally make it work, man. Absolutely. So for those probably very few Pistons fans,

listening to this, don't already know who you are. I wanted to tell people about your channel, what you do. So basically, I just kind of covered the Detroit Pistons. is a turned to do a side hobby. Now it's a full-time job. So just, you know, cover the Pistons. More of a fan perspective and just kind of give just my overall opinions, my two cents on it. So I don't claim to know everything.

I'm still learning it 32 years old. But I just enjoy, you know, talking to Pistons fans much like yourself. Awesome. Yeah. So you are on Twitter, on Instagram, on YouTube as well, correct? Basically everywhere. I went on Reddit for a minute and then I just hopped off because they hated my guts, but I mean. Oh man, you should have told me about that. I'm a Reddit moderator if anybody was bothering you on there. Oh, it's all good, man.

Yeah. All right, cool. So we were just going to talk, well, I was going to say the Pistons at the quarter mark of the season. We're a little bit past that thanks to an incredibly, incredibly concentrated schedule. It's been pretty brutal. I also could make the case that it's been a bit unfair, but, you know, makes sense that the NBA was unfair to the Pistons, given how successful they were last season, it had to slow them down somehow. So jokes aside, yeah, so a little bit past the quartermark, but we're going to be talking, just grading the players and the coaching at, I guess, just a little bit past the quartermark of the season. So you can probably guess who I'm going to lead with here, because I want to make sure we

I've got plenty of time to talk about this, and that is the not-so-great, and actually, in my opinion, extremely disappointing starting center for the pistons, Jalen Duren. I'll just blow through his stats really quickly. 22 games, about nine points per game, 68% from the field, 57% from the free throw line, nine rebounds, two an app assist, two turnovers. It's been rough. What have your thoughts on Durham been so far? I think for a majority of the season, he's been very disappointing.

And I went down a rabbit hole because I expected us to talk about Duren. Because I see, I saw the clip this summer. Obviously, there's nothing to talk about and I get it. You did a full 30 minute breakdown of just defensive mishaps with Jalen Dern, which was very well done by you. And the fact that you spent 30 minutes doing that, it had to be very painful to make that. Because I do a lot of video editing myself. So I was like, man, that had to take a whole lot of work. but kind of rambling a little bit.

I feel like he's gotten progressively worse over the last two years. I felt like he developed a lot of bad habits under Monty Williams, and the bad habits are kind of going into this season. And you're kind of seeing how much Isaiah Stewart actually kind of hid his deficiencies defensively last year because there maybe been two games out of like 20-someodd games we played that I could say, yeah, he had an okay game, but not defensively, man. He's just been piss poor.

Yeah. How have you felt about his effort level? I don't like it. He kind of picks and chooses when he wants to play hard. If he's not getting the ball, his body language kind of seems like he's pouting. If he's not bringing the ball up to court, he's really disengaged. Yeah. It's just, I don't like that he picks and chooses when he wants to play. Yeah. Yeah, me neither. And yeah, that defensive compilation was, like, I knew last season that he had completely phoned it in on defense and that he'd been bad.

it wasn't until I started, I mean, I really went super deep in that compilation, like every possession, or at least every possession on which he contested a shot or was involved in the, yeah, anyway, it was painful, yeah, just because I was like, okay, I thought this was bad, and it's actually even worse. Like, he absolutely phoned it in last season on defense, and I think he did it because he could. He had a coach who was never going to hold him accountable, so he just said, okay, I'm not, I'm just not going to do it. He was happy to work hard on offense, and I think he made a lot of progress there, but as a traditional big, you know, defense has got to be a big, big part of your game and totally agree on just the bad habits. As a rookie, he was a really hard worker. Last season,

not so much in this season, he's made no progress there. So, yeah, it sucked to watch. Yeah, I thought Duane Casey did a good job of holding him accountable as rookie year, because, I mean, if you go back and watch just some highlights of him as a rookie, he was at least trying to bother shots. He was trying to close out. Like under Mani, it's just like he just didn't try. And like the fact that, you know, you hear from other Pistons podcast from reporters asking him about effort, he basically admitted he wasn't trying last year. And like, to me, that was a big red flag.

The fact that he's just like, yeah, I just wasn't giving effort. Yeah. Like, sure, it was a brutal season, like one of the worst seasons any player will have ever gone through. But everybody else in the team kept trying on defense. Like the same, certain apologies are made for Duren, like this season that, like, oh, it's his third coach in three years. And it's like, same with Cade, same with Ivy, same with Stewart, you know, they all try hard. Last season, they were all on the team. It was brutal for them too.

They all kept trying. Durham was the one guy who stopped trying. And he did it, again, I think just because he could. Yeah, I mean, when you're having conversations that James Wiseman is your best rim protector last season, I think that's when you have. A big problem. And that's no slight at James Wiseman. I thought, you know, for what it was worth, at least he tried in the second half of the season. At least he was trying to get effort.

And the fact that, like, he played better under, like, kind of getting, like, coached up by Taja Gibson towards the end of the season. Man, like, that was just, like, so rough. But, I mean, yeah, it's inexcusable. Like, to your point, like, Stewart's still trying hard. Kate's still trying hard. They've had three coaches in three years just like him. but I think if he wants another contract and he wants to stay in the Detroit Pistons, he's going to have to start locking in and start being focused each and every game.

And that kind of just taking plays and possessions off. And the fact that J.B. Bickersstaff basically saying starting as a privilege, wouldn't surprise me if you see Isaiah Stewart in the starting lineup pretty soon. I hope so. I mean, if we're going on merit alone, Stuart obviously, I don't think he's taken a single playoff in the entirety of his MBA career so far. and he's just been vastly superior. And, yeah, during, I mean, the Sixers game for me was when a lot of my further hope for him was lost,

when he just completely came and just completely phoned it in, did nothing. You know, no defense, no rebounds, minus 27 and 12 minutes, just selfish offense got yanked in both halves. He just didn't want to be there. He didn't care. But to your point about Wiseman, I mean, another issue beyond just the effort, which I agree is completely be inexcusable. You're professional. You've got to go out there and work. Is that Wiseman just didn't have the defensive IQ. And I'm not sure that Duren does either. And if that's the case, even if he's got a great motor, you know, can't make it in the NBA. It's traditional big who can't play defense.

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to see any more. He's like Andre Drummond comparisons ever again. Like, I just don't want to see it. Yeah, I think you probably have a higher opinion of drumming than I do. And like I've got a rule that obviously would not apply to guess that I just, don't talk about Drummond because they've got such a bad things to say about him. But I would absolutely compare him favorably to Jalen Duren, like, without any doubt. A listener remarked recently that Drummond against Charlotte, like in that game when Duren did nothing. He's like, Drummond would have rolled out of bed and gotten 20 rebounds.

And that's true. Yeah, I mean, for what it's worth, and it's okay if you don't want to talk about him. Oh, no, it's fine. I'm just joking. I can understand it. But at the end of the day, I mean, the fact that, you know, I'm trying to think of the Michigan Center against the Hornets had to play. I can't remember his name.

Oh, right. Yeah, I don't remember either. But the fact that he was crashing the glass and out of competing. Oh, Diabate, right? Yeah, Diabate, like, obviously he's not a household name by any means. But, I mean, he was just out working him on the glass in Charlotte. it. And it was so apparent that the fact that J.B. had to rip him out for a good, like, 12 minutes because he just wasn't showing effort whatsoever. Yeah. Yeah, he just wanted it more. He's a lot less talented. He's a lot less big. But he wanted it. Duren didn't. As a traditional big, you've got to want it.

I mean, these are guys who are playing in a league in which the offensive limitations of being a traditional big are now the very significant factor. You've got to work hard. You've got to be hard on the boards. You've got to work. card on defense. Dern doesn't want to do that. And yeah, Drummond's, it hurts me to say this, but it's like, I would take his just stat stuffing. I don't really care about anything else, but stuffing the stap sheet play over what Duren does, because Duren doesn't even bother stuffing the stat sheet when he doesn't care. No. I don't really know what happened. I don't know if it was, you know, coaching. I don't know if it's give a crap levels in the toilet. Because I've never seen a player just drastically get worse in like a three-year span. I can't remember the last draft pick that we've had that just was okay his rookie year and just has gotten worse.

It's just really puzzling to me. Yeah, it's, well, I think he was a very high effort player as a rookie. I recall him working very hard. He still had his issues with defensive IQ. But at that point, having an excellent work ethic was enough to look at him and say, okay, this guy has issues on defense. you know, hopefully they're just a matter of seasoning. But he's promising because he's very athletic and he's super hard worker.

And that was his defensive peak because his, I think, in my opinion, I don't know if you agree. I feel like he's made zero progress in terms of his defensive acumen and his work ethic has gotten a great deal worse. I mean, you would have to like really find silver linings to just like, because like maybe the progressions that he has made are so marginal. It doesn't even matter. Like, this closing out on perimeter shooters, especially like stretch fives, like maybe two, three weeks ago, non-existent. He's gotten a little bit better at it, but it's still pretty bad. Like, the game last night, just jumping up and trying to block a shot when you're a good 10 feet away from it, that's not a closeout. Like, you can kind of go run them off the three-point line, man?

I hate to drag on the kid as much as I do, but it's just like I had a lot of high expectations for a guy that was touted as, you know, possibly a top 10 pick during his draft class. Sometimes as high as five. I remember ESPN to have him is a top five pick, you know, before that season. But, I mean, it's really disappointing to see how far he's fallen off just in terms of development, effort, you know, locking in each. and every night. Yeah. I mean, I would say at this point, and, well, I'll put it as a question, if you're the front office at this point, are you already thinking about what the future of the position looks

like for the Pistons and not necessarily trusting that Duren is ever going to improve enough? Personally, I think I would just see what I could get in the trade market. And if, you know, there's nothing there where teams just, they're low on him, I would just have him come off the bench and maybe I play Paul Reed a little bit more. Maybe I play Isaiah Stewart a little bit more just so he can watch from the bench and see what, you know, giving effort, you know, for a full 48 looks like because I think right now just giving him consistent playing time and he's still making those defensive lapses and mistakes, I don't think he's learning from J.B. just ripping him out. I think if, you know, he wants to get more consistent minutes

and be a long-term starter with this team, I think he's just going to have to, you know, play as hard as Isaiah Stewart does, play as hard as Paul Reed does to an extent. Yeah, I think it's an important message to send, in my opinion, that just that he stopped being guaranteed starting minutes every game. Like, high effort should be a prerequisite,

and right now it's not, and I get that he's on paper, still got a lot of potential, though I think the perception, of that potential for me is draining by the day, just given how slow he still is on defense, mentally speaking. And of course, the effort issues, I just don't at this point have any confidence that they will improve and stay improved. So, yeah, I agree. I think it'd be best if he came off the bench at this stage. But I'd also say at this point, whatever happens,

I think an extension this summer is completely off the table, the fact with the front office. What do you think? Yeah, I think so, too. I think the only player that you probably consider extending his ivy i know he's had a couple rough games as of late but you know overall um if i had to extend either ivy or durn i'm probably going ivy at this point oh yeah me too a hundred out of hundred times i think with durn beyond just the uncertainty of if he'll ever be the defender he needs to be as a traditional big and i think at this point that's very much in question like i hope that it was just the guy's raw and he needs seasoning but instead he's just been really bad so it's not just that. It's like we're more than two seasons in at this point his level of effort is awful.

And there's no, I mean, if you give him another contract, it might just stay that way. Drummond's first kind of, I don't really care season was the first year of a second contract. And his work ethic issues in the year three were nowhere near as bad as Durrance. No, his work ethic. I mean, he was, you know, Mr. Double Double Machine, crashing the glass given effort. and games where he was locked in, you could really tell. Like, you know, playing the passing lanes, protecting the paint, just being a lop threat, being just a menace, you know, getting offensive rebounds.

Like, when Drummond was locked in, you felt pretty good about the Pistons winning that game. Yeah, it was just, unfortunately, I feel like a lot of games when he wasn't locked in. But even at his worst, he was better than what we've seen from Duren. But at this age, at 21, he was still very raw, but he was putting in the effort, and his defensive IQ was just so much better. So much better. Yeah. So, you know, just getting to the grading side of it, what grade?

And the scale, of course, of A to F would you give Jalen Duren so far this season? Probably just, it would have been an F, but last week he kind of sucked me back in. So probably like a D-minus. Yeah, I've got to agree. Man, I feel bad giving anybody a D-minus. but in that area, certainly. Like, just the fact that the guy could not care less about really giving a professional level of effort every game.

He couple that with how bad he has been on defense. Yeah, I mean, I'll be maybe a little bit kinder and give him a D, but yeah, he has been bad. Well, if C is an average, then a D minus is probably merited. Just also a terrible teammate at this point, awful. So let's talk a bit about his counterpart of the position because I feel like how well Stewart has played and also the fact that he's got 100th percentile work ethic, whereas Dern is more in like the 0th percentile,

has really highlighted the difference between them. What have you liked about Stewart's play this season so far? I've really liked the rim protection. Not to say that he couldn't block shots his first couple of years in the league, but it seems like he's starting to get the art of rim protection, where if there's a guard trying to go into the lane for a layup, and stewards out there. I feel pretty confident that he's going to at least bother or at least block the shot. That's something that I've really liked. I've also liked his ability to, you know,

pass the ball. Obviously, last night wasn't ideal. He did have a few turnovers, but I think he's done a much better job of running the DHO offense. His screen setting has gotten a hell of a lot better over the over this year um you know first couple of years i don't really think he fully wanted to set a screen screen he wanted to roll immediately but i think overall just like screen setting passing's been a little bit improved and you know rim protection i've really liked yeah i've loved his defense altogether i mean i'm i've never made any uh never made any a secret of i don't know i'm missing in the phrase yeah never held any pretences or whatever i've always been a huge isaiah steward fan i'm aware of his limitations, which I feel like chiefly on offense, but he's a strong defender.

As high character as you get, always passionate, really works hard. And yeah, I think his defense overall has been at its peak this season. And I always felt like he was pretty good rim protector, pretty good, you know, just a strong three-level defender. But I think he's taking it to another level. A great point on the DHO is he's being used. I feel like a lot more by Bigger Steph than he had been before as a passer. And I feel like it's still a little bit shaky, but he's made some progress, like making some passes out of the short role, which he'd never done before. Yeah.

Offense, I feel like has been a bit of a different story. Do you feel like his touch around the basket has improved, though? A little bit. And I think you saw that as rookie year where that's kind of how Casey used them. They weren't really asking him to, you know, stretch the floor like he was last year with Monty. Yeah. But I feel like his touch around the rim has gotten better.

Obviously, I wish he was like two inches taller because if he was two inches taller, man, like a lot of those just like tip back dunks probably go in or tip back shots probably go in. And he's probably blocking like three shots a game. But I mean, honestly, I do like his touch around the rim. I don't know if you want to kind of touch on him not shooting as many threes. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know how I feel about that. I find that a huge waste.

Yeah. But I think if a sawer ends up in the starting lineup, I think we will, and Stewart alongside him, I think we will see Stewart shoot a lot more threes. But yeah, I feel like for a guy like Stewart, who is not the greatest in the interior, shooting threes is kind of a necessity for him to provide non-negative value. But also it's like a five-out offense, really. It affords you a lot of options that just having four shooters doesn't. And especially with Cade, who's good at exploiting mismatches in Ivy,

who can attack solo players in isolation. Offers you more options. Yeah, like, I feel like in the beginning of the season, a lot of people are like, why isn't he shooting threes? And then you kind of, like, go down the rabbit hole and listen to him at Media Day, basically saying, like, yeah, I want a bully, I want a bang down low. Like, they kind of just asked me to shoot a bunch of threes last year.

That's not really part of my game, but it's a skill I have now. But to your point, yeah, I think a five-out offense for this team, especially when you were reversing Boston last night, it was so apparent that, like, you need a five-out offense in today's NBA. I mean, like, you're going to play the Knicks this week. And you saw what the hell they did do us when we played them in LCA with, like, this Carl Anthony Towns and Jalen Brunton,

all the backdoor cuts, like, just having a five-out. Oh, yeah. Having a five-out offense, I think, is so needed. That's why you see so many people on the timeline, like, mentioned Nicola Vucovich, Miles Turner, Brooke Lopez is, like, you know, like, possible, like you could trade for Butchovich, maybe a target of Brooke Lopez in free agency or a Miles Turner. Like, I honestly think that having Stu shoot threes would really open up the offense, especially for Cade and Ivy.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was looking at some tape, and I was going to post a film study about it, maybe a little one of these days, but about some possessions from a while earlier in the season. I think it was against Washington. And you see these instances where Cade, gets a good matchup, he can bully them, and he drives in and Stewart is in the paint, and so is Stewart's defender. Versus if you had Stewart on the perimeter, then, of course, the center has the choice between giving the pistons an open three,

because he's got to go help on Cade, or just letting Cade score. But if Stewart's in the paint, things are a lot easier for the defense. So it's something I've been kind of upset about with a bigger stuff. Yeah, I could completely agree, like if five-odd offense is great,

the only exception I put there, if you have a traditional center, who is really good at his job, and it's just a really strong role man for, you know, pick and roll heavy guard. But that's not Stuart. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, if you had, like, a zoo box, like, you could probably get away with it, but, like, you just don't. No.

No, he definitely don't. Now, if you could take Stewart's brain and put in a Duren's body, I mean, you'd have the potential all-MBA center. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, DPOI caliber, defensive minds in a hugely athletic body, and he can shoot threes. I mean, of course, the guy would have been like a top three pick in that year instead of Wiseman. So, yeah, I realized I forgot to note Stewart's stats.

Let's see, he's at right now a whopping six points per game on 55% from the field, six rebounds, two assists at about one turnover per game. Yeah. There's one thing about J.B., I feel like the utilization of centers on offense has dropped dramatically altogether. How have you felt about that? It felt like everything is so emphasis on the back court right now that, like, last year, like, we really were running through our bigs under Monty. I think with J.B., his philosophy is more on the wing and with the guards versus the bigs. Not to say it can't work, but, I mean, you're going to have to have your back. court giving you a good 40, you know, 45 points in night to give your, give your chance,

give yourself a chance to win every night. Yeah, one of the, I wouldn't say it's, what's the word I'm looking for? I'm not saving grace. One thing about Duren that isn't his fault and that does deflate his value is that, yeah, he's been being used a great deal less. And I feel like he's a pretty capable score for a traditional big. And Stewart as well, as at some games when he hasn't attempted a shot, which has been a little weird. So, but yeah, If you had to give Stu a grade so far, what would it be? Probably an A-minus. Yeah, I think if we're going by the standards of expectations, I would agree.

I think he's been a pretty darn strong backup center. You know, in a vacuum, I'd give him more of a B-plus or a B just because it's always going to be really hard for him to contribute a lot on offense. But, yeah, in his role, I think he's been very good, and I'm sure we agree by far the best center on the roster. Yeah, I mean, for what's asked out of him, I think that's why I probably went A-minus. Yeah.

Because you have to kind of think, like, his role has changed in the past three years dramatically, like, from kind of being a stretch four to starting as a center, and then now you're going to be a backup center. Like, I feel like he's really just taking it at a professional level. You love to see that, you know, he's not upset with his minutes or his role has changed. That's probably why I gave him an A-minus is because he's just continued the work. not pout and his body language has been the same since we've drafted him as a rookie. Oh, yeah. He's just the consummate teammate, consummate competitor.

And we knew that heading into the 2020 draft that there was like no harder worker in that draft in that draft quest than Stewart. One thing, I mean, and this is bringing up a now infamous figure in Piston's history of Troy Weaver. It's pretty comical to me that he drafted, traded for or signed him free agency nine centers. Only one of them actually did well at the you know, did reasonably, decently at the position so far. And he tried to make that center of power forward. It's just incredible. Oh, man. I wish I could say more because I know some stuff behind the scenes.

Oh, I'd love to hear it. I can tell you off camera. It's kind of wild. All right. I'll look forward to it. So let's move on now to, of course, the most prominent player on the roster, Kate Cunningham, about 24 points per game, 45% from the field, 38 from 3, 9.1 assists, 7.2 rebounds, and one of the stickers, sticking points, excuse me, in his play 4.8 turnovers. So, yeah, I feel like Kate has made a significant leap. There are, of course, areas of his game to smooth out in particular the turnovers and

weaving shooters open to the three-point line, but I feel like we've seen a lot of progress. How ever you felt about it? I feel like defensively, he's been a lot. better this year versus last year. I can't remember how many times he blocked the shot his first couple of years in the league versus this year. It seems like he's really, you know, trying to lock in defensively. And I couldn't really say that last season or even like his rookie year.

It feels like it's way more eye-opening when you're watching the game, just his defensive effort. And offensively, I feel like the game is just slowing down for him. I think this is a guy that a lot of us have been extremely high on in the community. The turnovers are the turnovers. Some of the turnovers I can live with, but some of the other turnovers are just kind of like lack of focus. Or you like dribbles the ball off his foot. Like, you know, just like tiki tacky turnovers.

But, I mean, I could probably live if he's, you know, putting up 25 and 10 assist tonight. If he turns the ball over, you know, two to four times, I could probably live with it. And I don't really blame him for where the team is at because you're asking him to have the ball in his hands like 95% of the times. And he's been the team's probably best defender outside of Isaiah Stewart. You're asking him to do a whole lot. I can't really blame him for maybe not being as focused for a full 48. He's got a heavy load to carry. It's really the only handler on the team at this point.

I've been really happy to see his progress as a three-point shooter in particular. You know, he's averaging well over 40% on catch and shoots, about 35% on pull-ups, which is a decent mark. He takes some tough shots. Those threes are on screens, as much as I hate, pull-up threes because I think they're like the most boring end to a player in existence. It's very helpful to be able to take them. His whistle is still ridiculously bad. He just doesn't get the calls that he should, in my opinion, and that hurts the efficiency a bit. The turnovers I don't like.

I mean, there are occasionally some lazy pass turnovers, but my least favorite are the poor handle. I'm going to try to cross you over and get the ball stripped turnovers, which I feel like we see quite a bit. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and very avoidable. But on the whole, I think it's a big step this season so far for a guy who is really just playing its third season at this point.

Yeah, I mean, to your point with the turnovers, I feel like at times he holds onto the ball way too long when he gets doubled or tributt. crippled where, you know, there are times where maybe he could, you know, I thought the Atlanta game, if you kind of want to, like, watch film or look where he's gotten better, he did a really good job of passing out of double teams. It just hasn't been as consistent. Like, last night, I thought he did a really good job of involving Tobias Harris when he was hot, did a really good job of involving Malik Beasley when he was hot. He was just looking for whoever had it that night.

And, you know, you're starting to kind of see it all come together of him as being. being a floor general and being the point card of this team. Yeah. Floor general, absolutely agree with that characterization. Yeah, he's, I've also liked him diversifying his game a bit in terms of, yeah, attacking smaller players in the post being able to pass out of those postups. Also just, you know, brutalizing smaller matchups, like the Bub Carringtons and the T.J. McConnell's of the league who just cannot hang with him physically.

Like there's no way they can do it. And those are times when I think I'd love to see, you know, a stretch five out of the perimeter to take more advantage. To what you're saying about his defense, yeah, I think his on-ball defense has improved a great deal. Last season, it was just bad. But, yeah, the guy's carrying a big load. He's number eight in usage,

uses percentage right now amongst qualifying players. And again, yeah, if he's not in the floor to handle the ball, the pissons are pretty much screwed. Yeah. I mean, you saw it of the Memphis and Philly game last week. like it was so apparent how much of this team success is strictly because of him. Yeah, he's important to say the least. So, yeah, I've been happy with this progress.

The only, he said the only blemish for me has been his turnovers and occasionally his defense of the three point line. You know, I couldn't give the guy any less than like, you know, an A minus at this point, just given how much he's asked to do. Could be better or like a B plus at worst. Yeah, I mean, I was coming into this podcast. wanting to give him an A minus because of the turnover. But, you know, the more I think about it,

I'd probably have to give him an A just for the progressions that he's made on the defensive end of the floor, especially on the perimeter. And, you know, holding, you know, players accountable. You know, they're telling them they need to do better. Like, you know, like, telling J.D., he's like, come on, man, focus. Like, stuff like that, like, him just kind of being like that leader, definitely have to give an ape.

Yeah, he is definitely. a big deal to have your best player be a leader as well. That's not always the case and sometimes with very ill results. So yeah, definitely a super team focused guy. Yeah, I'd probably throw him in the A minus range. I think if he could just cut down on the turnovers by, you know, two or three a game, well, to even just two a game. And, you know, we've players open to the three-point line a little bit less. Yeah. I don't think he'll be an all-star this year because the Pistons are a bad team. But yeah, if they were better, maybe. Even then, you never know. Even then you never know. There are a lot of good players in this league. Yeah, for sure. So yeah, let's move on now to his partner

on the back court, Jaden Ivy. So Ivy at this point, averaging about 18 points per game on 45% in the field, 38 from 3, about 73% from the three throw line, not ideal. But four assists and three turnovers. So now that he felt about Ivy. I felt just like from his jump shot progression, especially from the outside. Oh, yeah. It's looked better. I don't know if it's me, but his shot seems a little quicker. I don't know if Fred Vincent worked on him with his release,

but just from watching tape from his rookie year to last year to this season, seems like the release is a little bit quicker. At times, it seems like he does get tunnel vision when he tries to do it all himself, especially the Rockets game. That one comes to mind where he just couldn't get out of his own way, just trying to play hero ball. But overall, I've really liked what I've seen out of offensively. And defensively, I think he's made huge progressions of locking in defensively.

Obviously, the past couple of games, it's kind of been non-existent. But overall, I've been pretty pleased with him. Yeah, I think just the shot coming together was a huge deal. I think the form looks a great deal better, a lot more compact, a lot less extraneous movement, and I mean, there was a ton of it in his first couple years. So I think we're seeing some Fred Vincent influence there already. Yeah, I think he's, I agree, he's a lot more under control. And I think the defense has improved enormously from him literally getting spun around at times

in his first year in particular. So I feel like he's been solidly in the realm of average right now, so he's not losing value on that end. Yeah, the refinement on the drive could still use some work, I think. and a little bit more care with the ball. But I think it's significant progress, especially for a guy who was stomped on by his own coach last year. Yeah, to say the very least, I mean,

having a guy that is in the G-League right now, fighting for G-League minutes starting over, you has to be pretty wild. Yeah, and, you know, the owner needed to get involved twice, you know, to get you in the starting lineup over one of the worst players in the league, and then for you to get the ball. and yeah, it's, yeah, but yeah, dude's a super hard worker, and I do wish we were seeing him more.

I feel like there's a lot of playmaking by committee when he's in the floor, when I would just like to see him put in the pick and roll, or getting good matchups in isolation and just attacking the rim. So I think he could also be handled better in the coaching sense, but I think it's significant progress on the whole nonetheless. Yeah, I think overall, I mean, if you just kind of take a 30,000-foot view of Jaden, Ivy. There's definitely been improvements on both ends of the floor. I mean, you could nitpick at certain times. He just does not look past the ball when he's like kind of struggling like he did last night.

I mean, there's a play against Boston where he was not taking no for an answer. And he had Tim Hardaway Jr. Open in the corner, and Malik Beasley. Willik Beasley was like literally clapping his hands for the ball when he was hot. And Jade and Ivey did not pass him the ball. But I mean, you know, overall, I've been pretty pleased with him. Yeah. How would you grade him on the season so far? Probably a B. Yeah, I could agree with you there.

Yeah, I think there are definitely some things he could improve upon, just the decision making off the drive and just some safety with the ball issues. But, yeah, again, I always felt like he was a player. I haven't said this, I don't know why I said again. Yeah, I've always felt like he was a player who was not going to come fully on line until year three. And then he lost year two almost completely because his coach was a, no, let's not get into that. I've had plenty of choice words to say about that guy's ethics. So, yeah, I think we've seen some very important progress that he's still a little bit raw,

but I feel like he's taking a lot of steps in the right direction. Hey, man, I had Monty cussed me out because I used to cover high school basketball. Yeah. And I covered his son, who was at Brother Rice. And this is kind of a funny story. Your listeners will probably laugh at this. So they're in a Catholic League, like semi-quarterfinals. And he walks into the building at Oakland University,

and all the kids start booing his ass. Like this like 16-year-old's booing him, throwing water bottles, telling him he sucks. So that was during last season? Yeah, he went to go see his son lose the Orchard Lake St. Mary's 20. And, you know, the Orchard Lake student section was, like, throwing stuff at him and booed him and telling him he sucks. So I'm like, man, these are little high school kids, man. Yeah.

That's hilarious. Yeah. Well, can't say he didn't deserve it. The guys is a squeeze bag. So, yeah, you mentioned Malik Beasley. Definitely came out of nowhere, I feel like, to be one of the most important players in the team. He's been one of the best three-point shooters in the league. I feel like he's been, it seems like very good as a locker room presence as well.

Yeah, I would probably say he's been their best acquisition in the off season. Just in recent memory. Like I can't remember the last time we actually signed someone on a cheap deal and the way that they're performing, the way he's performing. I'm not surprised by it though because he was actually on my wish list too for the business of Target. I was really high on him, you know, during the pre-draft stuff, one of the pistons to sign him for several years, and they finally did it. I'm really happy that he's here.

And to your point with the locker room stuff, 100%. I think he really holds the young players accountable. You know, spends time with them, you know, off to court, the stuff that maybe we don't get to see. You know, he's definitely been a guy that I think has, like, really fits a culture. to try to reestablish what, you know, the Pistons want to get back to, like, with the glory days of, like, you know, the goal in the work crew. I really dislike him as a vet. His three-point shooting has always been elite.

He's just been a sniper. Obviously, you can kind of live with the defense when he's, you know, you know, hitting six-threes a game at the end of the day. But I've been really pleased with him overall. Yeah. I mean, in terms of value against salary, which I guess isn't really matter for this team, given that they got $10 million a cap space. though it's been excellent nonetheless. Yeah, he's been absolutely key to the offense. His shooting has been elite outside of, you know,

maybe like a stretch of, I think, four or five games. It's been excellent. And he's been surprisingly decent off the dribble as well, which I did not see coming. So, yeah, the defense is the reason why he was an elite shooter last year, but ended up on a $6 million deal with the pistons. But, yeah, the way he's been playing, I agree, that's fine.

and as a role player just playing his role. I'm going to dock a little bit for, you know, four or five game, that four or five game span in which he was bad, but I don't think he can give him any worse than an A-minus in the season. No, not at all. Like, I would give an A, and it wouldn't not surprise me if he would play

as Tim Hardaway Jr. in the starting lineup. Wouldn't not surprise me at all. Yeah, well, let's talk, Timmy. Started out really strong. Now has more than come back to Earth. This point is at about 10 points per game, 40% from the field, 36% from 3, about two rebounds, one and a half assists, and about half a turnover per game.

And man, he started off red hot. I think we all knew it wasn't going to last because it hardly ever lasts for anybody, around 50% from 3. But the defense started to slide well before the injury, and he's been horrible since he came back from it. Yeah, I mean, I enjoyed the hot streak from 3 when you were shooting over 50%. I really did. I'm not going to lie.

But, yeah, that headlaceration that he got against Miami, definitely since he's, you know, come back, the shot isn't falling. And when he's not hitting shots, it's like, what does he really do? It's really apparent. Like, you can't, you cannot have your starting small forward drop two points. I'm sorry, man. You just can't. Like, it gets to a point.

It's just like, when are you just going to rip him out? Like, I know he's a veteran. You want to do right by, you know, your veterans. but it gets to the point where like I'd rather them just like throw run how on in there throw a window more in there at least I know that they'll just try and scrap and you know get some loose balls and some hustle points at the end of the day like if his three if his three point shot isn't falling it's it's useless in my opinion oh he's worst and worthless if yeah absolutely if his three isn't falling I mean that was the case in Dallas as well but yeah his defense is just

as fall is regressed back toward it's just typical standard which is bad. He's taken a lot away from the pistons on defense. He doesn't really rebound. He doesn't really pass. If he can't shoot, he's a really bad player. So, yeah, I agreed about the starting lineup that just can't last, unless he really, really picks it up again. But on the season as a whole, I, oh, man, I got to give the guy like a C plus maybe because he was so important in the earlier wins, but he's been so, he's been a minus player for most of the season. Might even give him a C. Yeah, I was, I was thinking about the grade as well, probably you see as well, just because, you know, the red heart, the red hot start and then he's kind of falling back down to Earth a little bit. But yeah, defensively, it's just really hard to watch, especially like last night, what drove me crazy and I'm surprised we haven't talked about it yet was just the defensive rotations. It's like, why the hell is Marcus Sassergaard and Christop's Porzengis?

It's like a foot, like, probably even more than a foot, man, because I'm being generous with Marcus Sass. I don't think he's 6-2 or 6-3. He's probably, like, more closer to my height. But, like, man, like, how the hell are you switching out, like, little-ass guards with little-ass wings against the 7-3 giant? Like, I don't understand it, man. Yeah, less than ideal. He's 6'1 and a quarter, I think, without shoes. So he's a shrimp in today's NBA.

Yeah. So let's talk another guy who's been, I'd say, very disappointing, that Simon Fontechio, who has come in after really having a great short and, you know, like, it's only 16 games with the Pistons, but he'd been pretty decent in his role for the Jazz before that. Had off-season toe surgery and has come in and looked nowhere near his cell from last season for either of his employers. Yeah, he's averaging about six and a half per game, 40% from the field, 33 from three. two and a half rebounds, I think about one assist per game, less than one assist against close to one turnover per game.

It's been, the guy just doesn't look. He doesn't even run the floor hard in transition now. I wonder what's going on with the guy, but it's been ugly and very disappointing for me. Yeah, it makes me think like maybe he's not 100% or healthy because to your point, like last year, ideally I thought he was like the second best player outside of Kate. like when they traded for him at the deadline. He was giving you a good 15 points. It seems like every other night.

And this year, he seems very uncomfortable in J.B. system. I feel like they're asking him way too much to put the ball on the floor. I know he's capable, you know, maybe like once every other possession, but like too many times where he tries to put the ball on the floor and turns into a turnover, where they're passing him the ball, late in the shot clock trying to make something out of nothing. I think just overall he's struggled. To your point, yeah, he doesn't really run the floor like he was last year. It's very rare do you see him run the floor, if any.

Defensively, I could maybe give him a passable grade just because it seems like at least he's staying in front of people. He's blocked a couple of shots at the rim. But overall, he has been very disappointing because I thought we were getting a guy that could give you a good 10 to 12 points of game off the bench. Yeah, I mean, last season, he has to be a good 10 to 12 points of game off the bench. Yeah, I mean, last season, he has a lot of. a lot of a track record is a shooter. And it just last season, we really saw that, especially with the Pistons.

He was also able to attack closeouts well. He could relocate and shoot effectively. Yeah, and he was strong in transition, and none of that has been the case this season. I feel like his role often has been to take a lot more difficult threes, but he's missing his open threes too. And if he's missing his open threes, he can provide bad value.

Yeah. You know, compared to expectations, I have to give the guy like a D plus. I think he's been, I agree on defense. he's been serviceable, but on offense, it's just been ugly, really ugly. Yeah, I'd probably give him, like, a round, just to see mine, it's just because of the defense. But, I mean, like, if the defense wasn't serviceable, it'd probably be closer to what you have. I'm just waiting for him to just, just a click.

Because eventually, there's no way he's going to have, you know, the rest of the season only giving you six points a game and just the way he's shooting the ball. He's too good of a shooter, I think, so. struggle the way he's struggling. Yeah, I agree. I think we'll see him progress toward the mean. And speaking of progressing toward the mean, let's talk Tobias Harris, who's had a bit of a tough go of it. He had about 45, should be 14 points per game, about 45% for the field, short of 35% from three, that seven rebounds, two an a half assist against about half that many turnovers. It's been a very slow start for Tobias, who for about a six-season span,

there was just a reliable 18 point per guy game on solid efficiency. Yeah, he's another player where it's like you expected him to at least give you like a good 18 and 6 a night and pretty efficient shooting from the outside. I've been screaming at my TV every time you're sitting in the corner from three because it's like, that's not going in. That's not going in. I was just like, no. But I think overall, I think a big reason why he's been struggling is they'll be

certain nights where pistons just do not look to give him the basketball whatsoever. Yes. Sometimes, Cade is just like, you know what, I'm just going to shoot it. Or Tobias will have like 12 point quarters and then he'll finish with 14 points. And it's just like, what the hell happened? Like, I just, I think overall I'd like to see a little bit more consistency. I'm hoping the Boston game can carry over into the Knicks game and he can start to, you know, string it together.

Yeah. Because I feel like with Tobias, he's such a rhythm shooter. And if you don't get him the ball consistently, don't expect him to try to close out a game for you. Yeah, I think it's been, he has been missing his shots, you know, especially early in the season. And that's on him, especially from the corners, like you said. You got to have him be consistently hitting his open threes at a solid percentage. But, yeah, he's a rhythm score.

Completely agree. Everyone should know that by now at this point in his career. and now he goes long stretches without the ball, and that's very painful for Tobias. Also, I think he's best utilized in a lot of motion, you know, attacking closeouts and, you know, curling around screens to attack the basket. And he's just kept him mobile on the perimeter at this point so much. And the post-ups from like the near the three-point line, it's like, you're not Blake Griffin. Stop doing that.

Yeah, I mean, eight years ago it worked, but I don't think it's going to work out now. Like, his first stint here, he can get away with it. He was a little bit more athletic, a little bit younger, but, I mean, it's just not going to work. I mean, that turnaround fadeaway is a tough shot for anybody. Yeah. So, yeah, I just, yeah, I have not appreciated his utilization by Bickerstaff. But I think Tobias himself, though by all accounts, he has a very good veteran presence, and that's nice on the court.

I think he just needs to be better. And so I give him a C-minus personally. Yeah, I was going to be, like, around the C-Ranges, too. I was going to give him a C-plus just because of his rebounding. I felt like as rebounding this year has been really crucial because at times I'm sure you see it too especially for offensive rebounding

for the other team it seems like a bunch of our guys just look at the ball and wait to see you're going to rebound it, you're going to rebound it Tobias has done a pretty solid job I think of just calling for the ball because I mean I don't know what we do in practice but we should be practicing boxing out

in defensive rebounding like so much. That would be nice. Yeah, it has not been great. Yeah, and he was definitely a strong rebounder early in the season. And I feel like the team has gotten better if rebounding by committee. But, yeah, without a doubt, early in the season. I mean, it was the team's best rebounder, better than Duren.

So final player, because I'm going to skip. Wendell Moore Jr. has been in and out. Sasser's been in and out. Neither of them have really had a significant role. So the last one, and of course, the Sard just came back. So the last one, and sorry, forgot about Reed. also same thing as with more and sasser so last one would be ron holland and for my part i felt like this is the season started the guy was never meant to be playing minutes in the first place is i feel

pretty i think it's a strong likelihood that it would have been a sarer he's not ready he's been played a lot in the perimeter which is silly pretty good defense but yeah i think the guy's just not ready for the NBA and it's fine his struggles i don't think are his fault he shouldn't be playing this role right now is my opinion i think that With Ron, it's tough to kind of give him a grade because what you mentioned, like if a SAR did not have the blood clots, there's a good chance. Ron is on the bench and probably is fighting for minutes with Window Moore. Maybe possibly he sees some G-League action with the crews.

You didn't really draft him because you thought he was a finished product. He drafted him because he's raw and has potential. Yeah. I thought as of late, the three-point shot looks a little bit better. It looks like he's not hesitating. But overall, I do agree with you. I think the only reason why he is playing right now is because of the situation with the SAR. But I think once the SAR's conditioning goes up a little bit more,

I don't think there's going to be a situation where you see Windle Moore, a SAR, and Ron Holland out in the court together. I just don't think that's going to be the case. I hope not. Yeah. I've seen it a few times. I was just like, what are we doing? I like him as a rookie.

But I do agree with you. I think it's J.B.'s hands are tied right now. He has to have someone out there that's going to give you effort and defend, just be a menace out there, scrapping just for those 50-50 balls. But, I mean, if I did have to give him a grade, I'd probably give him a seat. I feel like there have been moments where he's been, like, really good. He's been one of the better defenders out there on a night-to-night basis, but there are also been times where certain games where he's just shooting too much threes for my liking.

And he's a little bit too indecisive when he is wide open to where, you know, if there was a play there, he just holds onto the ball way too long, and the play just breaks down and the defense has a chance to, you know, just step up and, you know, turn up, make that possession into a turnover. Yeah, you definitely need to love. of refinement in terms of his decision-making, which we knew already. Yeah, I agree with your grade. Like, for what was expected of him and how he came in, it's kind of like not bad but not good. I mean, I'd almost give him an incomplete because the guy's playing, I think plainly wasn't

supposed to be playing at all. The threes, I feel like, has just been bad utilization. Unless they just really want to get him shooting reps, it's like maximum damage and minimum compensation, you know, minimum contribution. But I'll tell you, on that play when Sasser drove in and Asara and Holland were in the opposite corners. I just about busted a vein in my forehead. I was like, not again. This is like twice as bad as it was last season. I was like, please no.

It's so funny. One of my buddies who probably hasn't watched the Pistons since like the SVG era, and he recently got back into it, he's like, why are we playing around Holland like Stanley Johnson? I was like, oh man, you're so right. He's in the corner. He's just like a scrapper. defenders. I don't know, man. I don't know. Yeah. Less than ideal for sure. All right. So I think

that's all the players. Let's just have a do some quick talk about the coaching. I mean, I guess my summary, if I had to say, I think Bakerstaff's been very average. As expected, makes the team more than some of its parts on defense, but takes away from it on offense in a way that I found aggravating. I think overall with him, he's a clear upgrade over Monty Williams. I think we can I both agree there. Oh, huge. On Casey as well, I think. Yeah.

Defensively, you knew what you're getting with J.B. He's more of a defensive-minded coach. But I do agree with you offensively. It kind of has you wanting more, expecting more. But overall, if I did have to give J.B. a grade, I'm probably going to give him a B-minus because I didn't expect them to get nine wins this early. I really didn't. You know, beating teams.

And I feel like we could have more than nine wins, especially with, you know, miss free throws, boxouts. This team could have 11-12 wins, realistically, if they do a couple of those things. So I think he's kind of shattered my expectations, especially in his first year. I still have this team winning like around 27 games personally. But overall, I've been pretty pleased with him. Yeah. I'm not capable of giving anything in the realm of a non-emotionally influenced answer about coaching,

just because I've been beaten down by flawed coaches for the last decade. And it's like I really did not want them to go with their sixth, like a safe pick, but known to be flawed retread in a row. I really wanted them to take a chance on a higher ceiling coach. So yeah, I think he's taken some poor defensive personnel and made them into an average defense, which I think is an accomplishment. And I think the players really like him, which is a big deal. Just the offense, it's like I just wanted a coach where it's like,

we look at the offense and not have to say why are you doing this. There are things you should be doing very obviously different. Like just stale sets, really iffy player utilization, lack of imagination. Yeah, I mean, it just kind of leaves me wanting to tear my hair out a bit. So I'll give an admittedly emotionally influenced C plus to him, is what I would give. It's just not what I wanted out of a coach for this team. Yeah, I mean, for full transparency last year, I wanted Quince Snyder when he wasn't coaching. I thought he would have been a pretty solid coach for this team.

But, I mean, overall, I mean, for what it's worth, obviously, I think they, going with another big fish, I think was something that Gores needed to find out that you don't have to go after these big names. You can get someone that's an up-and-comer and still produce. Obviously, J.B. does have his flaws.

And in the last year, the coaching discourse, there was a lot of people that didn't want Kevin Ali. They kind of like Charles Lee. But, I mean, you know, overall, I guess it's kind of a blessing of disguise because now you know going after a big-name coach that's made the NBA finals isn't the move.

I think I think Gore's had to have another hard lesson as an owner. He's had to take a lot of L's on the chin lately, and I think he's been pretty humble, I think. Yeah. He is willing to learn. It's just been so slow. He has learned so slowly. This is what, like his 14th. 14th season, and my goodness, as he learned slowly.

He is willing to spend whatever it takes, though, I'll give him that, even if his money might come from, might be kind of ill-begotten, put it that way. Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, this has been great. Any closing words before we finish up? Just pray for tomorrow's game that we don't let the Knicks score 145 points. But, I mean, other than that, no, I don't have any closing remarks.

All right, fair enough. Yeah, it's been a pleasure. I want to thank you for coming on the show. This was Pist and Stock. You can find him on Twitter, on YouTube, on Instagram. And, yeah, I completely agree. Hopefully not another stinker tonight. That would, excuse me, tomorrow night.

That would be, wait, is it tomorrow night or Saturday? I can't remember. I think it's Saturday. Yeah. So that would be less than ideal. But yeah, in any case, as always, ladies and gentlemen, want to thank you all for listening. I hope you're all doing great.

Catch you in next week's episode.