Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 226: Analyzing the Ceiling

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

This episode focuses chiefly upon the relative importance of each member of the young core -- Cade, Ivey, Ausar, Duren, and Stewart (oops, forgot about Holland!) -- to the team's present and future. 

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. You are listening once again to Drive into the Basket. I'm Mike. Hope you're all doing great today. Joined once again by Price for the first time in a while, one of the most common guests on the show. Welcome back, Price. Always pleasure to talk basketball with you. Thanks for having me, Mike.

It's great to be back. Yeah. You know, it's so much pleasure talking basketball with you that we typically do it for an extended period before we record. I know. I've been times in the past when I've been like, okay, let's stop. So we actually have stuff to talk about during the episode itself. Exactly. So in any event, let's move on to, my goodness, I was going to do that thing where I talk about, you know, the latest big news and then mention something that's completely, completely unrelated, but I can't actually think of anything right now.

Yeah, things are going pretty well for the distance, which I think, you know, we've recorded episodes. some really truly not great times for this organization. So, yeah, how do you feel how things are gone right now? I mean, I know it's kind of came probably as a surprise to most Pistons fans, but what's it been like for you experiencing something that is not, well, at least for a few years, it was just like, okay, we're rebuilding and developing, but was not like that last year. Yeah, I think for me it's been just phenomenal to actually be able to hold my head up high,

as a Detroit Pistons fan and not have like a little tinge of irony or self-deprecating humor associated with it being like, yeah, I support the Pistons and people just laugh when I would say it to them in public. I'm like, oh, they're like that team. I'm like, yeah, I know. Well, think about it a different way.

I mean, there are the fans, I'm not saying there's a right or wrong way to be a fan. This is just how I kind of expect it for myself. But, you know, there are the people who will stick with the team when it's really bad. And I feel like that you get a deeper enjoyment out of that for when they're actually doing well. You get a deeper enjoyment from the knowledge that you stuck with them through some bad times, including like the fans of the 0-16 mine team might be the only ones, a certain moment of history of Michigan sports who can empathize with how bad last season was.

Yeah, I mean, it was a travesty watching last season unfold the way that it did. I just remember how even in the preseason things, like, just didn't seem right with the unmentionable former coach. Lord Voldemort. Yes, exactly. And I was like, okay, I kind of understood what he was doing with Ivy a little bit where it's like, okay, he wants to, you know, put him on ice for a few games. and then it just kept going. And that was, and it wasn't just that decision. It was all these other decisions.

And then you start looking back at like all the roster construction moves and, and all the decisions the front office under Troy Weaver had made. And I think you really sort of start to lose faith in the process when things are going that bad. So like you're saying, now that things are going so well, you can appreciate it just that much more. because you've stuck it out. So this is our piece of advice for today. Don't be a bandwagon fan. You know, to each of their own,

I don't want to tell anybody how they should enjoy sports. I'll put it this way. I don't blame anybody who had been in ship last year. I mean, that was, there's bad and, you know, stick around and, you know, and stay with your team. And then there is, like, get out for the sake of your own mental health. Yeah, like I The last 10 games in the season

That was a big thing for me I couldn't do it Like I was like I just I just can't I just absolutely can't do this But yeah I think Yeah in terms of being able to really enjoy the good times Yeah I mean And then there are of course those of us who

To just grew up with the Red Wings being good the entire time Yeah right And never had to experience that we have You know Had to I haven't been nearly as much on the Red Wobings as you have through this rebuild, because I've been so busy watching the Pistons be a successful team throughout that time. Yeah, I still think it's one of my major irony is a sports fan that I moved over to the Pistons,

in part because I was disgruntled at how poorly Ken Hallam is managing the team, you know, in the early to mid-2010s. So I moved on to an even more poorly managed team. Yeah. It was a great decision. At least we had near the start of that, that 2015-2016 season, when it really felt like the Pistons were turning things around. You know, like they won 44 games. The oldest member of the core was 26. That was Marcus Morris.

And, you know, there was a lot of excitement. And then, you know, there was that competitive four-game suite. Whatever, called a sweep, but it was competitive suite. Piss has played well against the eventual champions. And then the next season was a complete and utter catastrophe. I feel like this, it's been great, like, watching players develop where they have. But I'd have to say that right now is kind of like the first, times since 2016 when I feel that's sort of what a bit of joy. And not, I felt joy at other times

about the piss and so not that. But that sort of light feeling, you know, when your team is doing well and, you know, and it seems like things are really headed in the right direction. Yeah, it's sort of like there's a sustained optimism where we can, as fans, I think we can talk ourselves into a lot of very interesting opinions on certain players or certain decisions and whatnot. But when you actually start to see the results, actually start to back these things up, and you can sort of see the trajectory of like where this team is headed. And I think that's actually something I wanted to talk about, which is that I love what's going on here.

Like we could get into the nitty gritty for sure. but that the trajectory of this team is actually what I feel the best about, beyond even the scope of this season, about what is actually possible for the Pistons to do now, that I didn't necessarily feel, like we could say yet, accurately given just how uncertain all of the trajectories were of the various different young pieces that had been drafted. Yeah.

Yeah, the trajectory, there's an increasing amount of data behind it. I mean, anybody who knows me, who knows me, you know, Reddit or just knows me from, you know, Reddit or Discord. And I've got to plug Discord again. You know, I think Pistons Discord, we got just a fantastic group of people there. Like, I think very, very highly of that community. So if you're not on there already, and you want a great place to talk, you know, to talk Pistons, just Discord.GG slash Pistons. Price here is also a mainstay. Yep.

I got a lot of people who have been there since 2021. So in any case, yeah, you know that I'm not really one, just hype's not my thing, you know, one way or the other. There's nothing wrong with it. And sometimes I wish I could just feel a little bit more hyped about things. But I tend to be pretty reserved until I see a lot of data. And there's just an increasing amount of data that's making me feel good about the direction where things are headed or it's not just a blip. like, you know, there's, there's some, you know, aberence in there, like, in terms of, like, the opponents, the Pistons have played and, you know, the absence is due to injury, and the Pistons has been very lucky with those and been very, very fortunate in health outside of Ivy and Cade in particular. Mm-hmm.

But that doesn't, it's, like, do you remember the first quarter of the Blake season? Yeah. Like, the first 20 games in the Pistons went 13 and 7. they had the combination of an incredibly easy schedule and just comical luck with health for the pistons and key absences for the other side. And it was like this team is not good. The ground, you know, the bottom is going to fall out once the schedule gets more difficult. And it did.

They hit a harder stretch and they won four and 16. I don't, you know, with this team, I don't, you know, I'm quite confident that's not the case. So it's like, have they been helped by some remarkably good fortune? Yes. Is that why they're winning? No. You know, rather is that, is that why things are going well right now? No. So, yeah, I'm beginning to feel increasingly better about it.

But, yeah, so let's take this and, you know, let's talk about. I know you wanted to take this conversation in that direction. So let's go there. What in particular are you feeling about it? Yeah, I'm feeling good about Kate in particular and not just. Really? Oh, what makes. I know.

the hottest take you've ever heard on a podcast. Kate Cunningham is actually a good basketball player. I know that might be news to many of the people out there in the wider context of the NBA fans of the NBA fandom writ large. However, Cade Cunningham is actually quite good. We've known this. Even going back to pre-draft, I remember sitting down and just watching him at Oklahoma State and just being like, okay, this guy has like a feel factor for the game. That's really, really awesome.

And I believed in the shooting. I knew it was there. And of course, it's been a long winding road the last, gosh, four years now. I mean, well, he missed 70 games of his, I believe, of his second season. So it's basically his third year. Right. And this is normal for guys who are on that superstar. trajectory to not really start to pop until that third season. It takes a while to actually get a feel

for the NBA game and to have full off seasons and all of the sorts of thing. And we saw a little bit last season, especially at the end, Cade was really turning it on. And now that we have this sustained, just excellent performances. And this is the defining thing to be optimistic about. is the fact that you have a player who, at least by my math here, I'm fairly certain as second team all NBA. And he can be just due to injuries that have a career that are preventing players who are likely, likely would be ahead of him. So he's now at least starting to establish like sort of that,

that sort of aura, if you will, and cachet within the, the broader context of the NBA. And this is... Yeah, in the journalism community. And this... And the play-by-play guys, the people who vote. Right. And this is important because it helps to give potential solidity for people, or sorry,

players to approach the team and think, oh, there might actually be something here for me. Like, I can actually get a role on a team that will feature me properly, and I can work for that next contract, etc., right? And that's always a bonus, but I think even more so the rise of Cade Cunningham, we might have only seen the start of,

especially if he starts getting the whistle, which is probably his biggest, like, sort of accelerator in terms of, can he be, like, sustaining top 10, you know, top 15 player in the league, not just because of injury, like moving him into solid all-NBA territory. Whereas if he's getting the whistle and he's able to have more efficient point generation

and, you know, play the game a little bit differently to get his baskets, because he's such an honest basketball player, right? That's the old joke. Is that might actually really take us to that next level is if Cade starts getting the whistle and then his gravity completely changes even more so. when that starts to fall for him. Well, that'll help his percentage in the restricted area, too. I mean, if you take a situation in which he's obviously been followed

and send him to the line and makes two free throws, that's not necessarily improving his percentage in the restricted area. That's improving his efficiency, which is solid right now. I mean, for a guy who's very near the top of the league, he's high up there, I believe, top five or top ten. I haven't looked in a little while in terms of his percentage of unassisted offense. also his usage rate of stuff. I mean, his, just the load he's carrying, I mean, his sufficiency right now is perfectly fine.

You can just maybe dial that up a bit. I think he's got some work he can do to continue refining his finishing, though that's perfectly fine right now. His defense has certainly made a big, you know, big leap. He could still makes the occasional error of leaving somebody open at the three-point line, but he's made progress on that this season two. And then the turnovers, which has been a lot better about. So, yeah, I'm, I don't know if this is,

I'm very, I'm not, like I mentioned this last episode a couple of years ago, I've always hated, I told you so, so this is not that, but I'm very, very happy to have been right about Cade. This is not me saying, ooh, yeah, look at me. I was, I was correct about Cade, but it's like, I felt since his rookie season in the league that he had, all NBA, you know, all NBA potential is, you know, is a legit three-level score with excellent basketball IQ and a great attitude, like leadership. as I think Baker-Staff said recently when he was asked about Katie's like, you know, he's a guy who always put the needs of the team above his own needs, which is not always the case. Anthony Edwards is a huge douchebag. Jason Tatum in the playoffs, sure he won a championship, but the guy just sometimes likes to Chuck. And did you watch that game? It was game one between the Pacers and the Celtics.

Well, I saw you're in the conference finals when it went to overtime. I think it went to overtime. Yep. You did? Okay. So I was watching that game with, Sorry, what you're saying? Go ahead.

No, I was watching that game with my father and my basketball obsessed nephew. He just wants to know everything about the NBA. He's a Nuggets fan, of course. I live in Denver. You know, so it makes perfect sense. You grow up in Denver. You're a Nuggets fan. So it was, I don't know if it was the end of regulation or in overtime,

but I turned to my father and I said, they have got to keep the ball out of Jason Tatum's hands. He gets it. And I'm like, give the ball to Derek White. And sure enough, Tatum gets it and takes like this dribbling in, spin three times, tough fadeaway through a hand right in his face, mid-range jumper, and misses. And sure enough, the next play, the ball isn't Derek White's hands. So you'd never see that shit from Cade. You're never going to see him hijack the offense because he wants, you know, because he wants to score.

You're never going to see him play selfishly like a lot of players do, even the likes of, I don't know, I'm just looking at, I don't know, for whatever reason right now, the list of scoring leaders. but like, you know, Anthony Davis gets there. Like, you know, Trey Young does any number of players do. Cate will always do its best for the team, and that's a real force multiplier, plus his motor, of course. So I'm just very happy to have been correct. I know it's taken us some time to get there, but I feel like the flag. I feel like the foundation was always there. Yep.

I mean, you covered it, I think, really well, that this is the sort of player that we had hoped that he could be. And we're actually seeing it. And I think that there's even more room for growth still. And that he has a very real chance of being a guy who fights for first team all NBA on a routine basis going forward. Because obviously the leagues, you know, very talented right now. Can't take that, you know, for granted. But that I think there's enough still yet for Kade to develop into that you're looking. at a guy that who because he elevates so well that players are going to want to play with.

And that's going to be huge for a small market or mid-market team. Yeah, to your point about players wanted to play with Cade, I think at this point, of course, with free agency being relatively weak and the Pistons probably not having cap space anytime, so they may even operate as an above the cap team this summer. a lot's going to rest. I think a lot of where this team can ultimately go is going to rest on the development of the other use, barring a major trade.

I know the dream of everybody is to bring Devin Booker over from Phoenix, and that would be awesome. But barring that, you know, how do you feel about the team's ceiling in a context of, you know, that development, which I think still remains the key factor? You know, where does, where do Sarah Thompson and Jaden Ivy and Ron Holland and Jalen Duren go, sorry, that pause was not for any other reason that I was, whatever I feel about.

The pregnant pause, yes. No, not on purpose. You know, I think we've seen everything we're likely to see from Isaiah Stewart, and I'm still very happy he's still on the team, and I hope he stays. I don't think he'll be traded anytime soon. I think that would be a mistake on a variety of levels. Yeah, I want to just throw out there that Stewart is going to be in. trade talks.

Forever. Forever because of the very unique role that he plays in terms of being pure hustle guy who comes in, plays great killer defense and is completely unselfish with his role in his usage and is just a real solid character person and plays so fierce and so fearless and I think Stuart is going to be highly desirable. Of course, just as an aside, I'm with you, and this has been talked about for that Stewart's usage in terms of being able to stretch the floor is definitely being under explored. At this point, it's a small, and I know we're being very positive,

but it's a small area that I wanted to bring up, which is that going forward, I think, especially in a more playoff setting where you're much more matchup based, being able to have a guy who can stretch the floor from the five might be very important, especially with the other non-shooters that we're probably going to start talking about here in a second. Oh, yes. I think in general, I mean, of course, yes, in general. But I think especially in playoff scenarios. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. No, I mean that, like you remember, yeah, in playoff scenarios, I agree especially. You remember, like, the jazz against, you know, and hopefully, you know, hopefully bigger staff would be willing and any future coach, I'll be willing to be flexible this way. But the jazz, I think it was in 2022 or 2021, I can't remember, 21, I believe. So the jazz who still had Gobert and Mitchell at the time that Gobert is the, you know, the chief character in the story. the Mavericks started Max C. Kleber against, he was the starting center against the jazz because he could bring Gobert out to the perimeter. And it's very bad when Gober has to go on defend the perimeter, not because he's terrible at it, but because suddenly, like, the top three interior defender and NBA history is no longer in the interior. So Stewart, yeah, if he can stretch the floor.

And also just that he is a no variance defender, I mean, he was equally good in drop and switch. It's a very valuable postseason player, but also you consider like Cade who can bully matchups, you know, a lot of matchups at his position. If you have four shooters out there with him, then the rim protector either gets to leave Stewart open or give a basket. Yep. So super useful. Exactly. Yeah, I know.

Exactly. So Stewart, not going anywhere anytime soon. And I think Trajan Langdon and Company would be fools to move on from him unless there was a, very significant return that Stewart's involved in. It's a locker room presence, too. Yeah, exactly. Like, we talked about the leadership with Cade, but also the leadership with Stewart, because he's been here through the entire Weaver era rebuild and obviously the post-Weaver

era as well. And that's, I think, a real factor is that through it, through this whole thing, I think, he's now the longest tenured piston. and this is big factor that even though he's one of the young guys, he's also one of the old guys and has that cachet in that room. And I think moving on from him, especially when he's so unselfish and plays such great defense, it's just complete foolishness.

I think even if you get a really talented player to play similar, sorry for cutting you off, we're playing a really talented player who plays. great defense, he might not be able to play as big of a role in the locker room. And that's been so key, I think, to getting us to this point. I would presume that he might be the emotional leader of the locker room, whereas Kate is the actual leader, but, you know, those are not always the same thing. And that's important. And he is a real tone setter. I remember back when he was drafted, it's like, okay, I said this. I assume back in like 2021, where it's like, okay, well,

even if he never really becomes a starting caliber center, you know, you can still do good job as, you know, like a backup and team dad, which I guess has turned out to be somewhat accurate. Yeah. So, yeah, so we got Stu, who's, I think, is a very known quantity.

This one has improved, you know, some improvement, you know, his room protection has improved from very, very good to excellent. And as touch around the basket and then the post has gotten a little better. But, of course, he's not who we're talking about as far as, ceiling. No. Who do you, so we got the other four.

Yep. And I don't know. Do you want to rank them in terms of, in terms of whom you think is going to be the most important to this organization's future, their development as players? That's actually, that's a tricky question because I think you can answer it a couple of ways, depending on how you want. So we don't have to do that. Well, one of how, let me, let me walk you through it a little bit.

So, so you can define it as. which player in terms of like their development and trajectory we can look for in the long term to be most important. And that's probably what you mean. And then there's also in the shorter run who is more important for us to see things out of. In terms of getting a sense of like where they might fit into the pistons of the 25, 26 season and the following years. So Ivy, I would say, is in the short run, the most important piston in terms of their immediate development in terms of what he's able to produce. Yeah, outside of Cade. Well, that's a, like we just said, this is all in the context of Cade Cunningham remaining a top 10 or so player in the league.

So we're sort of holding that as a given for this entire conversation. Yeah. Because I was just, I was just clarin flound for a list. Oh, 100%. So Ivy, I had say in the short one, the next one to two years is probably the most important player to see development out of because of both, I think, timeline, the sense that he's kind of extension eligible this summer. And that's obviously going to be a conversation within the injury, of course, is throwing

things off and also the fact that I think he's shown enough to be a tradable asset. So I'm not saying go out and trade Ivy, by the way, because there's are still, I think, a really good floor there of like a solid sixth man type energy scoring, shooting threat who can also, you know, rotate in with the starters very easily. And there's, of course, upside as well with Ivy, well, maybe he actually can become a bucket getter. And he can actually be a consistent 20 plus, you know, point guy shooting 38, 39, 40% from three maybe. Maybe this is, he was improving as a three-point shooter, actually, before the injury.

Maybe that improvement continues. And now we're looking at a guy who's a legitimate catch-and-shoe weapon with elite burst. And I'm not so worried about the injury taking that burst away from him. He already was actually. I mean, he was shooting 45% on catching shoots. Strykey. Oh, yeah. It was pull-ups that were bringing his percentage down.

He was 35% on pull-ups by the end. Right. That was the, thank you for that. That's the point. It was the pull-up shooting, which was coming up. That was really pushing the number upwards. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he was terrible at the beginning of the season.

It had gotten a lot better. Yep. And so I'm not worried about the burst with his injury because I think that injury, thank goodness is obviously significant to the point where he's missing multiple months, if not the rest of the season, but also it's not to the point where I'm worried that he's going to lose that burst because it's the outer bone that's not load-bearing, it's more stabilizing that he...

Oh, no, there's no long-term impact there. No, no, none. No ten, no tendon damage, no ligament damage, and now that bone's going to heal. Exactly. And so with Ivy, I think, in the next one to two years is your most important piston outside of Kate Cunningham, of course, to watch for development and improvement, because maybe he can actually just fill the role of the star player that you would trade him for. Because you build the pack, what I'm imagining, at least, you build the package around Ivy. You sign Ivy to a reasonable contract that teams can look and be like, oh, that can go out and get that. that's not going to be too hard to make the money work.

And then you say, okay, I'm going to attach picks here and there. And now of a sudden I actually can, I as a team or Trajan Langdon, I as a GM can go out and be like, look, come on it. Let's actually bring the star in next to Cade and give him that scoring threat. So I think Ivy is the guy to look for in one to two years as the most important. for development because he has the most realistic equity, in my opinion, of being a scoring threat. Nice. Got the most short-term value. Also, what's the most immediate value out of the youth at this point? Yeah. Yeah, if he improves to beat. Like, the ideal scenario is him becoming that co-star for Kade, like you said, which will have the benefit of, you don't have to get rid of any future assets, but also you're not trading for, I don't know, Devin Booker who's on a supermax deal. And, you know, Tom Gores. It was one of the best. of his upsides is that he is willing to pay a lot of money.

Yeah. But nonetheless, their implications are probably limits. With Ivy, here's a question, this bit of an A side. And I know what you're going to say. And I also, it's very similar to what I'm going to say, is that do you think that the pistons have been better without Ivy, you know, or do you think that that is entirely just the coincidence of the timing? I would say that only insofar is that the loss of Ivy.

maybe forced the other players to elevate their game in the sense that, oh, I have more to do now to make up for Ivy's absence. But they're not better because Ivy has hurt. Make no mistake about it. This team lost a significant contributor when Ivy was hurt. And the team is just worse, I think, in terms of spacing for it. And we've compensated overall by having Cade elevate himself even further and having other guys step up and become even more judicious with their ball handling, with their decision making to make sure that we're getting good quality looks time in and time out. Yeah, on top of that, you had Jalen Duren switch his from off to on. in terms of actually caring about basketball, which happened right around that time.

It did. You know, like right around the end of the year is when he, I mean, he was still definitely having his issues. Like the Nuggets game the next time, I mean, was incredibly ugly and, you know, he still has problems. But that was the point at which he, I mean, Jalen Duren, when he's being lazy, is an extremely bad NBA player and like truly awful NBA player. and that's around the time when the Pistons, you know, he still get his issues, but when the Pistons stop having maybe the worst starting center in the league when he actually started trying again, I think that that's been an important factor, not because he's been great, but because the difference between him when he's trying hard

and him when he's not is big for this team. Oh, huge. Yeah, it's big. I think, yeah, I agree that, no, I don't think him going out and being replaced by Asar was a positive for the team. Asar has been helpful on defense. The defense was never going to survive with Duren on the floor if he wasn't playing it with a high level of effort, which makes him just kind of like a below average defender

rather than a terrible defender that he is when he's not trying. So, yeah, Asar has been helpful. Like you said, Kate has taken it up another notch. And I mean, yeah, he really powers this team. He was the same. Pissons are very fortunate that he's been as healthy as he is. that is the only thing that could make the, I think, make the floor fall off from this season is if they lose Kate for a significant period of time.

You know, with about 20 games remaining. So, yeah, hopefully, hopefully the good health continues, needless to say. Yeah. For every purpose. But, yeah, I agree. Ivy has a lot to offer. And, I mean, I'll riddle me this. I know the answer.

Again, this is a rhetorical question. But if he comes back and he's fully back up the speed, do you put him back into the starting lineup and whom do you replace? I mean, automatically. And I would say, Tim Hardaway, it's been nice having you. But yeah, I agree. I'd like to see Ivy next to Cade with Cade at this level. And the other team and the other team members, obviously having elevated their game as well, I think it could be really awesome.

And THJ, love him to bits, left him since he was at Michigan, grew up watching him. been a player I've always liked just because of his sparts and his attitude, but he can ride the bench, or at least move back in the rotation a little bit once Ivy comes back. Yeah, I think, yeah, I completely agree with both of those things. Yeah, Hardaway's been good for this team on the veterancy level, and when he is hitting his shots at high percentage, but the guy is about as close to it as they come to, like, Just a pure, pure shooting specialist. Yep.

He doesn't pass. He doesn't rebound. And he's a bad defender. So, yeah, when those hot games, he's good. Otherwise, he's probably second to Fonte. Only Fon tallywin or below him in terms of positive impact. Put it that way. Yeah, exactly.

So, yeah, if Ivy came back, I would do that. So, yeah, you said there were two. The other sort of two sets criteria. Yeah, the other sort of construct I was working with was long term who has, if, regardless of what their value is from the outside and near term as a tradable asset, I would say that the long-term most important player, this is like really tough. It's probably we can cut it two ways. We can cut it is a SARS shooting percentage is like the single three-point shooting percentage

is the single most important maybe stat to watch of any player in the long term. but then it's, I would say that it's actually how much can Ron Holland refine his game and turn it into a actual like multi-level scoring threat who can even do some ball handling duties. And that's who I would say in the next four to five years is the guy that I'm most interested to see progress. because I've really liked Holland in terms of what I've seen going beyond my expectations, far beyond my expectations when he was drafted, in terms of obviously, like you said, not a positive impact player,

at least relative to the other players on the team. Not right now, no, I agree. But more of a positive than I would have given him credit for than as like a 19-year-old coming out of a really horrible situation. in the Ignite. Oh, the G-League Ignite, yeah, what you didn't like. I mean, I was about to joke that you didn't like the Ignite. What a shock.

You know, there was so much to like about that team. It's funny because when we were talking about the, when we were doing out of these previews for the 20-23 draft, it was a 22 draft, excuse me. The Ignite was still relatively well thought of at that point. And then come two years later, they were just a gigantic, tragic fucking mess. Yeah.

And also completely useless with, you know, NIL, which is what they're going now. I agree, Holland has done much better than I thought he would, much, much, much better than I thought he would. And he's developed more across the course of a season from where he was than I thought he would. I agree that. So first things, yeah, I completely agree with you so far on Assar, I think, yeah, is if he can become a reliable three-point shooter as the highest ceiling on this team outside of Cade. Yeah. Because there's so much you'll be able to do with the SAR if he can shoot, especially if he continues to refine his handle to some degree. I don't think he'll ever get close to his brother, unfortunately. But if he can, it's just because

that's a lot to ask and, you know, to develop a handle, you know, develop until like a very good handle that A man has and a very good finishing ability that A man has. And I always wonder if I'm mispronouncing his name. But that's a lot to ask for a player, you know, to develop in the NBA. And generally, you've done so much of your development already, by the that point, by the Diasar's age, at least in that capacity. Yeah. But, yeah, if he can just shoot the three, yeah. You've got, you know, potential 20 point per game score with elite defense, you know,

a guy who can make some All-Star games. Holland, I agree to the offensive ceiling. I feel good about the unball offensive ceiling. It's just you see the touch that he has in transition, which is quite good. He's savvy. He's highly athletic. You know, he's got good touch. It's just raw right now. yeah, I agree he could

I'd put his ceiling on the the all-star border. I think Asar is likely to be a little bit higher up there in terms of his ultimate ceiling just because of the athleticism

and the defense. But I'm feeling pretty good about Ron Holland. He's the kind of player who could be third best player in a championship team if your top two players are Cade and another very good player.

Yep. And that's sort of how I feel about Holland is that he has the most equity that's really realistic at being a solid contributor to even an excellent contributor alongside a primary or a secondary option in the sense that plays, I imagine his defense is going to improve over time as well.

It's pretty good already. And it's already coming in at a very good level as, like, as it is. So this is going to make him a very useful player at worst. but I think that in terms of his capacity to be a scoring threat, especially with his touch around the rim, which I've been really impressed with. Like every time that I see a highlight of his, it's almost always just some really nice, nice touch and feel

for that area, like that box that's kind of a few feet in each direction around the room. And he's really good there. And on the other hand, Asar, If he can shoot, to some reasonable extent, I don't know how low you want to set that floor to be. Because even him getting above 30%, I would be shocked almost. But it's to the point where if that happens, and now I'm going to speak more favorably about a star, I think you have a superstar, like, player. Maybe not to the extent of his brother in terms of the handle creativity aspect, but you have, incredibly elite defense

in terms of what he can do like one on one with players just yeah you look at the game that just happened against Tatum and Tatum's of course one of the best players elite rightfully so can it is just a walking bucket

can get his shot in all these different ways I don't care how corny is he's an awesome player however Asar just gave him absolutely everything he could handle time and time again. And he's tough, not even that handsy in terms of like how he places his hands, still gets steals, of course.

And it's just has a dynamite footwork. So everything in terms of Hussar's capacity to be like a clamp point of attack defender against even bigger wings is a huge asset that. we can feel amazing about the transition ability. We've seen all the highlights. I don't need to really go into that. And then, of course, the blossoming handle, I think it's going to continue to improve.

It's probably his most important skill to be a serviceable rotation player for him to develop. Outside the shooting? Well, so hear me out. So I would say that the shooting is for the upside, is more indicating of his ultimate upside, but that you can still have him be a useful player in a rotation as long as they're shooting around him to a sufficient degree to stretch the floor.

Even in the postseason? Well, this is where we'll have to see how much Asar can adapt his game to postseason basketball if the handle can actually hold up. But this is what I'm saying is that if the handle improves, I believe in the court vision to a good, good extent. I believe in his basketball IQ and feel to a very good extent. And so the handle will help him to actually see time and see minutes in high leverage situations, in my opinion. What about the finishing?

With shooting around him. Yeah, and the finishing is definitely a concern as well. But I feel like if he can't even get to the rim, With his handle, we might not, we might not really have to worry too much about the finishing because he's going to be catching lops for days from, from Caden and other players. But in terms of his upside, his three-point shooting is the most important skill, by far, in my opinion. Yeah, that's a big swing factor for the team, for the team's future. Yeah, it does. Its ability to shoot or not.

It is. because it's what's going to allow him to play long-term with Duren in playoff settings or another center. Well, maybe period. I mean, it's just like there's only so much, there's a limit to how much value you can offer on either end. And particularly on defense, which just goes, of course, I'm not telling anybody to Dernan you know, it just goes less far than offense these days. And it's just guys who can't shoot get punished. There's only so much you can do.

Really? Like, I mean, if the other team is obliging and play smallball, then sure, throw a sara at center. Great. If Asar is going up against a seven-footer, it becomes a much less palatable thing because Asar can't really punish the other. Yeah. I mean, he's going to have his struggles. So I don't know.

I mean, it remains to be seen. It'll be interesting to see how he does in the postseason. But it's just things hurts quite a bit, it hurts quite a bit more there. But the, I have liked his usage has been, you know, I think has been decent by bigger stuff. This season was not quite so much early in the season. But over the last couple months, I think has been, has been solid on offense. It could be better, but it's been solid. And, of course, we have last season to compare it to, which was whatever.

Dark places, dark places that we don't need to think about anymore. I agree. So I agree that Yeah I think he's got a higher Playmaking ceiling certainly than Holland He's got good card vision He's good passer I think Holland has the higher Scoring so I think Holland would be better

As a higher ceiling is as a pure score than the star does Oh easily Because yeah he's like two years younger And his just his handle And his touch around the rim Are significantly better And I think his shot has really been

Just come along a lot It's a lot less claim and don't even have us are shooting right now, which I think is kind of telling. It's not over. It's just not in a good spot right now. You know, the bigger staff didn't really want Mowbly to shoot last season either,

and now he's shooting and doing better, but I think it's a very different story. It's a very, very different story. Yep. So, yeah, this brings us to number four. Shockingly, I know, for the listeners, that I would rank Duren last. I'll just summarize my reason for that time, whatever.

is just that even if his on-off switch is permanently on, which may be the case. Though you can never trust it in my opinion, but even if it's permanently on, the defensive IQ, it would be really something for him to make that degree of progress. And even if he does, the switchability for a traditional big is very, for anybody, but for like a traditional big who's got to provide a lot of defensive value, he can't switch anymore. Whether it's his injuries or not, you just can't switch bigger stat, text him at all times, which you can do in the regular season to a degree that it's going to cost

you there. And the postseason is just not an option. You saw like Tatum, for example, like this a rare situation where Durran ended up defending the perimeter, it hardly ever happens on a switch, and he got torched. So your traditional big is a switch liability in the postseason, your value equation, even if you, less so if you're like a really good defensive minds, I think Durran the best we can hope for is that maybe he's like an average above average, which should be a big leap, but if you're an average above average defensive mind, traditional big who gets torched on switches, your value equation is very bad.

And I also question how much of it is Duren on offense and how much of it is Kade, who has enormous gravity and is great in the pig and roll. I know that wasn't so brief. No, it's good because I echo a lot of your thoughts whenever I watch Dern in the sense that this is

concerning that there is an off switch to the effort level. I'm not sure if that was just maybe like a poor choice of words to frame what happened or is happening in terms of his engagement or like understanding. But if there is an off switch that is concerning that it's there, that you don't, you don't like hearing that about a guy being paid millions of dollars to play basketball. But nonetheless, yeah, let's hypothetically say that the on switch is there for good. You can't know it, but for the purposes of the conversation. Exactly. So

the on switches on staying on defensive IQ just you don't just magically gain that this is something that develops over the lifetime of a player from the time that they first started playing at the as a kid with their older brother or you know older kids in the neighborhood all the way up to to now you know if you make it this far and it's something that that you sort of learn instinctual You might even just have a genetic or God-given, however you want to put it, predisposition to have this intensity level on defense, to have this innate understanding. You look at a SAR, right? Sarr and his brother are just completely almost like telepathic in terms of how they understand defense and what an offensive player is trying to do on the court against them. It's great.

Great to watch. Just absolutely beautiful to watch them on defense. Dern, on the other hand, it's like, is he going to make this rotation? Is he going to actually use his hands effectively? Is he going to box out against this obvious rebound attempt? This sort of thing is a constant concern factor for me. And I think, you know, it's probably the biggest Achilles heel in terms of what this present iteration of the pistons is really going to be capable of achieving in the postseason, which I'm sure we'll probably come to,

is just the exploitability of Dern at different levels as a starting center on defense. On offense, I also echo a little bit of what you're saying in the sense that Kate is just so good at generating easy buckets for other players. Like even if he doesn't get the assist, he drew so much attention. Sort of like the Yokic effect where it's like his his on-off numbers are just comical because he just draws so much attention and teams have to spend all of their mental faculties. Like it's basically five minds and five bodies against one person when Yokic is out there.

And he just plays everybody, right? Yeah, he's, Yokch is like just one of the ultimate gifts by the basketball deities to the game of basketball. Yeah. Yeah. And obviously, I'm not trying to say Kate is Yokic level at all. I love Kade to bits. That would take a very serious level of increase in terms of what he's doing to get to get to that point. Because Yokic is, for my money, very, very close already to top 10 all time, if not already solidly in.

It was the best offensive center of all time. No, by leaps and bounds, I mean. There's no doubt. Yeah. And that tells you even how good Mbid is that for that one season he was able to be. I think that M.B. could have gone either way. The fact that Mbid was able to be, whatever, I need to get into that. Embed and at his prime is, he still does not equal Yogyat-Jun offense.

The way he can provide similar value is because he's much better on defense. But, yeah, Yolkich on offense. Impossible. is. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The things he does should be impossible. Yeah.

And then Kade just draws a lot of looks in that Yokic-like way or that Luca-like way, where the team is spending so much mental faculties just trying to keep up with the counters, with the fate, the Hesies, all of that sort of thing that he's throwing at teams now. because he's so in his bag and so confident with everything he's doing, that essentially I believe Duren out of that is one of the main beneficiaries on the team because he can play this very simplified offensive role and he can dive to the rim. And he's great at that. And you don't have to see him do different things on offense.

and they have started to expand the passing again, which I think is great, because it helps with the ball movement a lot, and that can help with hopefully generating more easy looks, you know, cross-court, different sort of things. You could, if J.B. Bickerstaff starts opening up the offense a little bit, maybe you can actually run off-ball actions. I know that's a thing Pistons fans aren't familiar with,

but you can maybe run off-ball actions. if there's more players who can pass with confidence. Oh, it's helpful. So it's great that Duren has that. I believe that in order for Duren to remain the starting center in the long term, he has to become meteoric or semi-medioric on offense to really justify it, where he develops the passing to a higher extent. He maybe even gets more goring for himself that he can sort of start finding in his

game. That, to me, at least, is a tall order, but I'm also of the opinion that he's young enough that you can give him an extension and see what happens. And probably, it probably won't be too big of a number. Oh, I mean, do you give him an extension or do you wait and see next season? Yeah, I'm almost to the point where, where you wait and see, give the extension, and then continue to wait and see. And maybe you move, maybe you move on from him at a, at a, certain point, but that I think it's, that would be multiple years yet in the, the, the, running for us to see if Dern can add, and all of that. Well, it's, I mean, we'll have the playoffs is a major witness test on defense because he might be, yeah, we'll be, yeah,

we'll be a lot of the playoffs and it gets stick from there. So, man, we're already at an hour already. Uh, what's, so I know there's, I know there's, I know there's more, there's more we wanted to cover. There's so much to talk about. There's a lot to talk about. So maybe, uh, maybe, uh, maybe, uh, in another episode soon. Let's end this with a brief discussion on something that's, I don't really like, it's nice to see the Pistons get more media coverage and it'll be really nice when they have more nationally televised games because that's just cool. But Pistons being talked about by Stephen A. Smith is something I could do without.

He did bring up a point. And I think it's an interesting discussion to have that, I mean, this discussion was there, you know, before he brought it up. But, you know, we know all the things that Troy Weaver did badly. This is not a guy who is going to build a good team or even a good development environment. Yeah. How much credit does Troy Weaver deserve? You know, what share of the credit does Troy Weaver deserve for where the roster finds itself right now?

And we should leave out the fact that he tanked because the general managers before him were not allowed by Tom Gores to tank. So that, you know, the fact that he tanked was great, but that was an obvious strategy. Yeah. But, you know, so how much credit in terms of, you know, whom he drafted, you know, what the other realistic outcomes there might have been and, you know, whom he brought in. I guess we have to consider his asset management outside of things as well. And this is how much, this is where I'm going to say he gets a partial credit from me in the sense that we have to look through each of his. first rounds, in particular, I think, to really assess his drafting because the second rounds weren't anything to write home about. In fact, they might have actually been underachieved on that level, but second rounds rarely, second rounders rarely turn out to be anything. So, you have to look at, okay, missed on Killian. Can't really blame the guy, right? Kim, Kim, are you sure

that we can, uh, we can make that deterred? Are we at a point where we can finally make that determination. You know, he's playing really good, quote unquote, really good in the NBA right now, just on the pistons. No, that one game. Yeah, fuck that guy. That's all I have to say. There's, there are some players that will never root for to succeed. And this guy whom they drafted seventh overall only for him to feel like he was a special snowflake who shouldn't have to work hard, like, you know, like everybody else. Yeah. The hell with that guy. He's still doing it. By the way, gets the rim? Nah, mid-range pull-up. His first shot in the NBA, season was a mid-range pull-up that he missed the rim with.

Gosh. Okay, anyway, moving on. Okay, yeah. So there were misses. So the Killian, you know, pick obviously miss. How much can you blame him? Like, Killian was a reasonable pick. Then you'd look at, of course, the asset management, you know.

About Sadiq Bay, you got to look at too. Well, that's what I was about to say. I mean, like, so you look at it, like, Sadieke Bay, Isaiah Stewart, Isaiah Stewart's really good pick for that range. But he cost a pick. But he himself cost a pick. And you also had Sadiq Bay, who obviously did not pan out and is, I think, on the way out of the league as we speak.

Not EACLTR didn't help. Yeah. In injuries, but there are other factors there. And then we look, okay, Cade, that was no doubt. He gets no credit for that, in my opinion, because they're in, in, I'm Our situation in the 2021 draft, there's no credit to be given for getting the guy who had the most capacity to be a primary initiator for offense on a team that did not have that. So no credit there. Mobley, fantastic player.

I just think that it wasn't the right fit in terms of where the team was at, even though you can't be upset at having Evan Mobley. I'm not saying that the Cavs fans of the world who are somehow listening to a Pistons podcast an hour into it, uh, uh, should feel upset about having Evan Mowgli. Now, then you look up, then you move up.

Okay, Ivy. Ivy's pretty sensible pick there. I'm, out of all of that draft, I'm not exactly sure if there's really anybody other than maybe like, sharp. Oh,

Matherin. And Matherin. They've been comparable. so far. They've all been pretty comparable and I think you you can lean Ivy there pretty pretty comfortably due to like athletic traits

and X factors. I mean Sharp has plenty of athletic X factors too and maybe you just... That dunk yesterday from Shope. Nasty nasty nasty business. Ooh. Woo! Yes. So I don't know. Maybe it's like it was a reasonable pick.

Then we look at the Duren trade drafting. You really wonder, was that the right move? Was that the right call? I mean, it's hard to say at this point. That's the one where you have to look at, okay, if Duren turns out, maybe we've got to give his credit up a little bit, Troy Weaver's credit up on the drafting up. And then, of course, we move to the Sart Thompson pick. I think it's, that might be the one you give him the most credit for in the sense that, you know, we did a podcast then. I don't think either of us, Hadassar five. No, not at the time, no.

And there were serious concerns with him, and I don't think he was an obvious pick there. Oh, I mean, I'll go right. So we didn't have him five, but I think we only went over before the draft. The two of them scoot Brandon Miller and Wembe. So I don't think we placed anybody because I think the only person we really talked about whom we liked was Taylor Hendricks. And Ken, Whitmore. Yeah, Whitmore as well, though.

it's kind of hilarious how true the concerns about him ended up being a guy just doesn't pass. Yeah, it's like, he's like literally at or near the bottom of the league and assist rate, you know, it's, it's really something. So anybody who said this guy can't pass was absolutely right. Yeah, they hit that analysis out of the park. Yeah, but it was the, it was the injury stuff. Yeah. And, you know, I think in particular that made him drop. Right.

Yeah, I, I'm just sort of saying if, if, if, it's. Sarr pans out to some extent that you might be the pick you give him the most credit for in terms of having like a vision of like I'm taking the upside guy here regardless of anything else. And then, you know, as an aside, there's also the Marcus Sasser pick thrown in there. Not ideal. Not ideal. Counts as a first rounder.

I was high on it at the time because I sort of liked the theory. But I guess what I did not understand. understand or appreciate is how limited the handle and the passing would be for the type of player he is. Howdy athleticism, too? Well, that's what I mean by the type of player he is. Oh, okay. Shorter, non-athletic, and not able to really get the offense going under his own. I think that's a real big factor for why that pick has not yet worked out.

Oh, yeah. I think it's sober in terms of his ability as a handle. I think... I'm being jimmy. I think Sasser has... I think, you know, I think maybe he'll be... He's cheap. He's got two more years. It'll be the perfectly good reserve,

like guy who doesn't play if everybody's healthy. You know, like, I think ultimately you end up with the nine-man rotation. Yeah. He'll be number 10 or 11, and that's fine. But, yeah, it was definitely not great. So I agree. Cade was the sensible choice, the only sensible choice. Yeah.

Ivy, I think, yeah, the, I think it was, and Weaver did say this, like, we don't just draft players, we draft people. He didn't not turn out necessarily to be the greatest judge of character in that respect. But, of course, Ivy's, you know, he did select for that. And obviously, Assar and Cade and Darnas TBD. But all the guys, well, Bay didn't really, in Stewart, but Bay didn't really turn out this way, neither to Killian as as is really kind of like

team first hardworking guys so yeah his second rounds were terrible he also I think he paid a total of

man like 14 second round picks and all we have out of it is Sasser and Fontechio correct and yeah

he so yeah he did bring the talent on but she was never going to get the pitch He was never going to get the pistons further. Like the guy, what else did he do? Well, yeah, he wasted a lot of assets. He provided a terrible development environment for all raw talent he brought in.

Right. He, yeah, I mean, it's like. I just wanted to pull. It's like a mad scientist. Yeah, I just wanted to bring up. We got to give him his flowers to Malik Beasley on a historic shooting pace this year. And he's been a huge, awesome story to watch. right?

Oh, but that's not Weaver, yeah. But the point is, is we have to contextualize it in the sense that Weaver did not bring in a guy, right? Not that you can predict an awesome, you know, six band of the year candidate. Oh, right. Yeah, nobody on the margins is what you're saying. That's what I'm saying. Like a guy on the margins who can come in and shoot, he can come in and be a little bit of a, you know, flame thrower, at least. Do anything.

Anybody on the margins. Yeah, like, yeah. Like, hello. And sure, you look at, um, Buck Donovic and you look at Berks. But the issue with those guys is the way that they get points to not meet the context of the team. And this was lacking vision, did not get a supportive environment for these players to develop in.

And really, I think that as much as we can rightly point out the feelings of, of Lord Voldemort, we also have to recognize that Lord Voldemort was empowered to be in that position by Troy Weaver. Even if this was Tom Gore's, you know, decision and the article that came out from the athletic. Let's stop talking about this guy. It's making my stomach go, right? I know. I'm making you sick.

I'm making you sick. No, but he's only in that position because of Troy Weaver's decision making, ultimately. in the context of Troy hiring because I don't think Troy in the choice in hiring. Not in terms of the hiring, but in terms of how that whole situation played out.

Okay, sure. There was the roster, yeah. I think that roster could have won, could have been in the 30s with a re-leat. I think the best coach in the league could have gotten some 30 wins out of that roster. I don't think it was a horrible roster. I think it was a very, very flawed roster

that was not going to do anything very good. And it was awful for development too. Like, all of his rosters were awful for development, except for that first year when he hadn't had enough time yet to ruin it, break everything down. Ironically, that was the best development environment he had. It was. It was. Yeah, it was after Cade came in, that was when he really started destroying everything,

even remotely resembling a functional NBA team. But I just want to go back to what, yeah, it's like, it's like, we're just going to bring in this raw. We drafted this guy for his still world. We're going to bring in as much raw talent as possible and make life as hard as we can on him, apparently, and on everybody else. So, yeah, just to go back to. which you said on the margins. Yeah,

you have to hit your moves in the margins. Like, yeah. And the Fontecchio, like 16 games of Fontecchio was the best he did. Yeah, that's rough. Yeah. Trajan got Beasley. It definitely has been huge. Tobias is,

I don't know if you can say moving the margins because, you know, is a significant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's a significant money and he's been around for a while. But guys, three veterans who came into fraud, actual veteran leadership,

which Blyan and Birx were not doing. but yeah moves on the margins like his second round you know it was terrible in the second round his reclamation projects were all disasters yeah he traded for two flunked second overall picks you know raw project bigs in one year and then said well only one of them gets to play and yeah so I think what it comes back to is that yeah you can you can credit weaver for some things like I think personally Assar was the only rational pick at that point because it wasn't going to be Jaros Walker. No.

He wasn't going to pick Hendricks. I just think it didn't really make a ton of sense to pick Hendricks and, you know, just because the team still needed high-ceiling talent. But I think the only picks you can really credit him for Ivy and who knows if it'll turn out to be better than Matherin and Sharp. Yeah. And Duran, who knows, you know, TBD, I just, I find it hard to credit him really very much at all. outside of, you know, assembling tank rosters,

especially that first year, like tactically tanking in a way that ultimately, you know, got them a 14, turn to 14% chance. You know, got them that 14% chance.

But if the Pistons had ended up picking forth, this is a very, very, very, very different conversation for them, you know, very, very likely. I mean, this entire franchise was,

his entire tenure, what he offered was saved by one turn of the ping pong balls. Mm-hmm. Yeah. not a guy who, you know, did something like, you know, Oklahoma City coming in and very unfairly getting Jalen Williams and number 12. You know, it's not like he came in and swooped in and, I don't know where I was, you get where I was going with that. I just kind of digress. So I just find it trouble. I find it hard to really give him credit for much of anything at this point,

is I think that the picks he made. It's either TBD or they were the only ones that really made sense. and he did so much to hinder the actual development of all the players he brought in. And it's Cade who was powering this team, like absolutely powering this team, and he was the only reasonable choice. And I think it just speaks to how out of touch I think the media is the wider NBA media. And obviously Stephen A. Smith, like not exactly the best exemplar therein. But the wider media doesn't necessarily. understand how the Pistons have gotten into this position because we've been kind of miserable to watch for a while and that Troy Weaver was kind of able to sneak through a lot of criticism from the media about like what was happening last year because they didn't understand that the roster construction was a major component for the dysfunction. and, you know, for prioritizing character,

he routinely brought in players who didn't really provide a lot of character and didn't provide a lot of structure or leadership. And I think that's to me the ultimate repudiation. He has this quote of, we're going to restore, you know, the pistons. We're going to bring in people, not players, etc. And he didn't do that. And if it amounts to, you know, we judge him based off of the Ivy Duranessar pick, I think that's kind of sad, really, that that's like the best we can say is that he made,

he might have made three reasonable choices. And obviously the Stewart pick. We'll give him the Stewart pick for sure. Yeah. We'll give him the Stewart picks. Yeah. Yeah, which fortunately this season may only lose them, you know, the 20th pick. Yeah.

Which, of course, ironically, is only four picks. were than they pick Stewart. But you're not there. So yeah. So yeah, I don't I don't give a ton of credit to Troy here. No. I think, yeah, I just, I just don't. And it doesn't sound like you do like you do either. But fortunately, he's now, I wonder how much decision-making power he has in Washington. There's been a lot of Weaver-like things going on there. But that's, that's pure speculation. All right. So we are at about 75 minutes here. Yeah, I know. So I think, I mean, this has been great. Oh, for sure. Yeah. That's not, it's not. It's not. many people I can have a continuous basketball, a good continuous basketball conversation with for well over an hour.

So I think we're going to call it on this episode. But this has been great. Do you have any closing thoughts? Go Pistons. Let's get that playoff when. We're fortunate that we actually can play meaningful games now, and we have a chance of actually making a small amount of noise of the postseason, which was not at all, in my opinion, in the cards other than, oh, you know, we're actually not dying.

you know, every single time things get close at the end. And it looked a little bit shaky at the start, but I think that was just sort of a young team finding its way and sort of kind of the new coach in a new situation, sort of figuring out, like, how everything works. But we actually have a chance to put this huge drought, I think, is 2007. 2008. Yeah, 2008.

Since the last playoff victory. Against the Celtics, yeah. Also right now the longest postseason losing streak, which I think stands at 14. Yeah. So, yeah, it's exciting. And I think I think the distance will get there. And of course, that's what I'm most looking forward to is seeing them playing in the postseason. That's where I love my data, you know, and I think that's not only, so not only am I going to enjoy watching them in the playoffs, but I definitely get some good data on.

Data from there on exactly where this team stands. Yeah, exactly. Yep. All right. In any case, thank you again. Price for coming on. Thank you all, as always for listening. Hope you're doing great.

Catch you in the next episode.