Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 235: Summer League Recap, Free Agency, and Cam Thomas

Episode Date: July 25, 2025

This episode recaps Summer League, goes more in-depth on free agency, and explains why the betting odds from an unregulated offshore sportsbook about Cam Thomas have no bearing upon reality. 

Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to another episode of Drive into the Basket. I'm Mike, and I hope you're all doing great. Back after a three-week hiatus, and not a lot has happened outside of Summer League. So, in any case, I'm going to talk a bit today about Summer League. Speak a little bit more about free agency. Cover some questions I have received from listeners. As always, thank you very, very much to everybody who reaches out. topic suggestions. It's very helpful, and I really appreciate it. So first things first, let's talk about the latest quote-unquote news, which should be about Cam Thomas. Really, all I have to say about this is that Bavada, from whom this odds came, that quote-unquote odds, that Cam Thomas, excuse me, of the Pistons with the likeliest landing spot for Cam Thomas, is an offshore sports book completely unsubject to regulations of any kinds, and they can base their odds on whatever they would like, including nothing, or what I would imagine in this case would be complete speculation. I think you'd be very hard-pressed to find a single anybody in NBA circles who believes

the Pistons to be even a really viable landing spot for Cam Thomas or likely to any degree, let alone the likeliest. I mean, you can look at it from the Pistons perspective and say, you know, we don't really want to bring a guy onto the team who's known as a very me-first sort of black hole player who doesn't really like to play within a system. Certainly has a big ego and just be kind of disruptive and you're also just, you don't want to take the ball out of Cade's hands, Ivy's hands, whatever. There are those concerns that I'm sure the front office would have. The bigger factor is that it just makes no sense at all for Cam Thomas to want to come. come to Detroit, like unless somebody is leaving, which would more or less need to be Ivy, and that's not happening because he believes that he's worth big money.

I mean, it's just kind of a mark of the very, very strict value equation in today's NBA. That it was a top 25 scorer last season by points per game, and nobody's really interested because it's not just his scoring for any player. And like I said, it's teams are very, very, very, very, very all about this at this point to a degree that they weren't five years ago and certainly weren't 10 years ago, just as I like to harp upon the requirements to provide value in the NBA are just increasingly higher and teams are just increasingly keyed in on those. So it's just not just about, oh, this guy can score. It's about what is his actual value on the courts when you look at the fact that he doesn't really play

within your offense. He's kind of very questionable as a passer. He's bad on defense. So, So what does he realistically, you know, bring you in the overall value sense? And that's why you have a guy who is, you know, average 24 points per game last season efficiently. Think about 58% true shooting, if I remember correctly. But nobody's, the nets included, is particularly interested in paying him. And that's not just because of the cap landscape is, I'm not sure if we heard it from a reputable source that he was offered just the mid-level exception. But the guy thinks they made a level exception money. But the guy thinks he's worthy a big.

money and he's just not a very good player but just to the point of why he wouldn't want to come to Detroit. The guy thinks he's worth money and it, you know, the pistons only have, you know, the shrewder trade exception to just take him into outright, you know, on a, an aside in trade because in order to give a restricted free agent an offer sheet, you have to do it as a free agent transaction, which means actually having an exception that the player will fit into or offering actual just cap space. That's one reason why restricted free agent offer sheets are very rare because you need to, you know, it's almost invariably for somebody who's actually a good player. I mean, there are two categories, well, there are three categories of guys in restricted free agency.

The first category is, of course, guys who get extended, you know, the year before the final season of their contract. Second category, and generally these guys get extensions before their fourth year as well, is guys who take bargain contracts like Neesmith or Abdea. And then your third category, because rarely does like a valuable player make it, you know, make its restricted free agency. But in that case, your two categories, you're rather a good player who's worth substantial money, or they just let you go.

I mean, if you make it's a fourth year and so you just not all that great, then your team generally doesn't even make your restricted free agent. It might not even be worth the qualifying offer, but whatever the case, these guys generally just get renounced. But if it's a good player, then you have to, you know, you're probably going above middle level exception level, so you have to use cap space. A lot of teams these days just don't have cap space.

It's, you know, it's been kind of like a cyclical thing, like less good players become available in free agency. Like the last time we saw really a star caliber player change hands, like unless you're counting Paul George, or, you know, who's very, you know, long in the tooth when he changed teams in this past, this past off season. Or, well, it's, you know, Butler changed hands. Well, we're going all the way back to 2019, basically. Like the most notable agent to change hands in the 2020 off season after Kauai and Paul, you know, excuse me, just Kauai and Jimmy Butler. that was a sign and trade.

And Durant and Irving changed hands in 2019. Yeah, the most notable players to change hands in free agency. Yeah, like Butler, not Butler, excuse me. Thompson, George, in 2020, like the year after that, you know, huge movement of star caliber talent, Jeremy Grant, you know, ultimately turned out to be the biggest transaction in free agency. So West Good players become available in free agency because it's more just the error of extensions and to a degree player empowerment, teams shepherd West Capspace.

So even West good players, even going down on the line, make it to free agency. They just take extensions instead if they're good enough because there's very little cap space available, and it goes on and on. But if you do have the cap space, and, you know, player signs an offer sheet,

player has to actually sign the offer sheet. And in the case of like a max caliber player, and again, these rarely even make it to restricted free agency, you have to tie up that cap. space until 48 hours after the end of the moratorium. The moratorium ends on July 6th, so about six days and 18 hours after free agency opens. You know, moratorium is the time in which you can agree to contracts and not sign them in practice. It is immensely rare for a player to, you know, agree to a contract and then back out the last time was DeAndre Jordan in July of

2015. But I digress. Basically, you're locking up that cap space for until the point at which basically everybody relevant is gone. And often teams who field offer sheets will just take it the entire 48 hours before making a decision just out of spite. Excuse me. In any case, Tom's, excuse me, Camp Thomas, if he, you know, he thinks he's worth big money. He's, I think, very unlikely to accept less than big money. And big money these days in the context of the NBA is much more than it used to be. you know, Josh Smith back in 2013, he got something like $15 million in his first season,

and that was huge. I mean, these days, that's mid-level exception money are very close to it. So, you know, two factors there. Number one, Thomas is not going to accept a small salary. You know, he'll just take the qualifying offer from the Nets if he has to, and just play it out there. And at this point, that's really his only option. He has two options.

If he doesn't want to take, you know, if that contract offer is legit, again, I don't remember whom we heard that from. It's basically he either accepts whatever money, the nets offer him, like if they're not willing to trade him, or they just don't get a package that they're satisfied with, then he either takes what they offer him. He takes the qualifying offer, which is what a team is an offer, basically one-year contracts offer, the amount of which is stipulated by the CBA, and which makes a player restricted free agent. And so, yeah, he takes one of those or he holds out. you know, obviously holding out would not be great for his value, which isn't particularly good right now. But wherever he goes, he wants to have a big role, both because he feels he deserves it clearly, but also because, you know, if he's, well, I mean, again, probably unlikely he'll take a multi-year deal at a bargain salary anywhere.

So if he's just taking the qualifying offer or if he's taking a, yeah, just short deal someplace else, but try to build his value, he's going to want to play a lot. That's not going to happen with the Pistons. You want to go to a team like, I don't know, the Bucks, for example, who's starting backcourt is, I don't know, I think it's like A.J. Green and, you know, in my, you know, in Kevin Porter, Jr. So, in any event, I've probably spent like 10 minutes talking about this now. The point is that, you know, there is no source for this information that the Pistons are the likeliest team. It is just an unregulated offshore sports book. I meant to just end it, you know, to end, uh, whatever is.

saying about Cam Thomas with that. I just always encourage people to be selective about the sources you listen to because there are very few actually reputable sources out there and a sports book. You know, maybe some of the more reputable sports books have sources. The likes of Bavada do not. And your average insider on Twitter is bad. I'm not going to name any names because I feel like it's just bad. You know, I'm not out to, you know, to rag on anybody. but I always encourage people to stick to the reputable national insiders who report actual news and the local beatwriters and like the reputable local beat writers for any team. Those are the ones who generally just report hard news.

On Twitter, you have a whole lot of people, probably on Instagram though. I don't really use Instagram. You have a whole lot of people who just want to be insiders and are certainly not above sharing outright speculation or news from bad sources. And they operate, you know, or just being deliberately misleading, you know, phrasing speculation is as close to fact as they can possibly make it sound in an effort to seem like they're plugged in when they're not. And to operate on a model that actually is very effective on social media,

which is, you know, report this sort of quote-unquote insider news that that's, you know, a lot of fans want to know about and do so on the very accurate basis that your hits will be remembered, you know, even if they and your miss is forgotten, you know, and your hits will be remembered, even if they are drastically outnumbered by your misses. People will forget. A lot of people will just forget about the misses and focus on the hits. So in any case, that's just, you know, something that I like to harp upon. So let's talk Summer League. And, I always, not to be a party booper about heading in a summer league, you know, I always, I feel like every time I've talked about summer league, I've felt obligated to note that it's an entirely different piece from the NBA. It's basically glorified pickup against a drastically lower level of competition in terms of the talent.

Teams don't play defense like they typically would. Teams don't really play on offense like they typically would because it's just guys coming in with very little preparation for a short tournament. And I feel like, you know, just to illustrate and probably don't need to illustrate this to any of you, but I think it's, we have an excellent example here. You look at the G League, which is, of course, far better than Summer League. And you see J.D. Davidson, who was, I'm quite sure the, was either this year or last year. Sorry, I don't want to pause this and start typing. I think it was this year, the G League MVP. Yes, this year he was the G League MVP.

and just got waived by the Celtics. I mean, the G-League is a very strong league by the overall standards of the world. But like every other basketball league that is not the NBA, it has absolutely no comparison to the NBA. Like, I'm marvel at how good you have to be to just have a cup of coffee in the NBA. I mean, but whatever, you'll get more forbearance if you're like a top 10 pick and you suck. You know, teams will want to play you just because they want to see if there's anything there. but just to survive as a rotation player for a couple of years in the NBA,

you need to be amazing. And if you are at a level at which you need to spend a significant amount of time in the G League because your team just says, well, you're not ready, and all but some very, very rare circumstances your unlikely would ever make it to the NBA. You look at the ranks of the MVP in the G League, like Mack, McLung, Davidson, Paul Reap was an MVP, Chris Bouchet was an MVP, Chris Boucher. has had the best career in the NBA of any G-League slash D-League MVP ever. I think there have been 26 of them at this point.

And he's lined up for probably a minimum contract this summer. So the gap between the G-League and the NBA is gigantic. I think you can make the argument that EuroLeague is the second best league in the world. Very, very, very, very, very few guys from there ever make it to the NBA. And, of course, Summer League is well below those two. So there's some takeaways. we can glean from Summer League, but not a ton. Again, not to be a party pooper.

Let's talk about the Pistons representative. So one thing you can take away at times is from second-year players who, or even third-year players. It's very rare for a guy who plays three seasons in Summer League. It's very unlikely he's going to make the NBA. You know, occasionally, I think the Pistons, whom did they have third-year Summer League last season? I don't think anybody. Anyway, I mean, sometimes these days, some teams do this and some teams don't.

They'll just say, okay, well, you know, this is the best five-on-five you're going to get in the off-season. So just go out there and work on a couple skills, whatever. But with second-year players, and it's become more common for second kind of, second-year players who still have more gaps in their game to come to Summer League just for that purpose, just, you know, hit the floor. It's the best five-on-five you're going to get for a while now, you know, just work on a skill. So last season, that was Sasser, where it's like, we want to see if you can be a lead handler. Just go out there and do your best and deflopped, of course.

And that, I think, probably informed maybe to a degree how, well, actually, it did not inform the front office's decisions at all. I mean, free agency was already over. But also, they just went into the season without really even a viable backup point of what I'm on the third string. But I'd digress. I'm referring to Holland. So of course, Ken Holland, Ron Holland was, I mean, his, if he can become a reliable shooter, he's going to have a long NBA career. Because the guy is already a

plus defender. He's a super hard worker, which is always a force multiplier. It just means it's going to make, it's going to make a player better regardless of his skill level, whereas guys who are lazy will get worse. And so he can shoot threes. He's a 3-and-D guy who's going to be in the league. He's going to have a long NBA career. You know, the athleticism, of course, is a big thing there. And he's very much a plus athlete. So he came in and it's just, his shot for him looks a lot better. And that's something you can take away because, you know, shot for him is, of course, huge. Holland didn't have really bad touch as a rookie, but he had a lot of extraneous movement and which is really something, you know, in his jump shot, which is something you never want. you know, the more locked in your jump shot is, you know, the more, you know, the less factors

there are. And so, yeah, his form looked a lot better. I mean, I've been of the opinion since probably middle, middle of late last season, that Holland could be, that Holland's form was very fixable. He fell into the category. I feel like there are three categories of guys who come into the league as poor shooters. You have guys like Jalen Brown, who are good form, bad percentage, and those guys have good outcomes. You have guys like, I'm sad to say the Thompson twins who come in with bad percentage, terrible form. This is like really bad for a sara, absolutely horrible for A-Men. And then you have guys who are in the middle who have bad percentage, but decent form. Like, not awful, very fixable. I feel like Holland fell into the

middle. And his misses weren't like terrible last season. I mean, it wasn't like they were just kind of absolutely clanking. His touch wasn't awful. So I believe the guys, guy can be, you know, 36% three-point shooter, like, as soon as next season, if not the season afterward. So his form was very encouraging. He certainly doesn't lack for confidence, but his form is very encouraging. What we heard from him was that he's working quite a bit on lower body strength. Yeah, I mean, if you watch his shot last season, there is a certain amount of movement

in the lower body. And it does take strength to shoot NBA threes. I recall Wanzo Ball saying that when he came into the NBA, he was so weak that he was basically throwing the ball at the basket. So that was a very encouraging sign to take. I mean, for a variety of reasons, not only for Ron Holland's NBA future, but also from a team building perspective, like if this front office decides to commit to a SAR regardless of whether or not he can shoot, I mean, if you can't shoot, then you really, really, really, really, really, really want to avoid playing them with any other non-shooters. Because, you know, taking one perimeter non-shooter,

I mean, basically just the downside of having a non-shooter on the floor. you know, non-shooters in the floor is compounded when you have multiple non-shooters, you know, particularly one of them is a perimeter player like a Tsar. So it would be very, very difficult to play a SAR and in Holland together if they're both struggling shooters. So then of course, beyond that, I mean, on the drive, I mean, I've, I've been confident in his ability on the drive because you really see it in transition. You just really needed some refinement. I mean, it's very good touch in transition, you know, at the rim. And he can get to the rim. I mean, a guy will barrel through people. Well, I'm not in the terms of

charges, but he certainly doesn't avoid contact, to say the least. And yeah, he's got that good touch in transition. And he's got the athleticism to beat guys off the dribble. So he came in and, of course, you know, the other teams had a lot of trouble stopping him and just followed him a ton. And he kind of hit the floor more than I would have liked in the, you know, in summer league, but that's just how he is. So, yeah, a player who's clearly advanced beyond, you know, it's kind of, I mean, he was stepping on people for the most part. Got to the line a ton. Hit his three.

It's only seven of 15, but the takeaway, and the biggest takeaway for the Pistons in Summer League, the most important takeaway by far is that his form just looks a lot better. And so, great. That was very heartening. It was fun to watch and play. Moving on to the only other guy in Summer League who's on a standard NBA contract. That is, God, I always forget, Bobby, Bobby.

Bobby Quintman, yeah, because it's not the new Toby and Bobby. I remember because it's Bobby. Not great. also, in my opinion, kind of unsurprising. So, Clintman really came into the league as a project. And I should refer back to what I said before. It's about just how good you need to be to play in the NBA. So he came in as a project who was very inconsistent,

like a high IQ player, but very inconsistent, high IQ on offense, at least, you know, good passer, but very inconsistent as a shooter, like prone to lapses on defense and also just not athletic at all. I mean, the guy doesn't have the first step to beat anybody off the dribble or, you know, really even to reach the rim. on closeouts. So, and also terrible.

Just coming in, he was, you know, he was drafted, just absolutely terrible at scoring through contact, like truly horrible. And so in the G league in his first season, shot like 30% from three, which is not a good sign. And, yeah, came in and all of his weaknesses were on display. I mean, he did better on defense in Summer League this season than he had last season. But still, he's virtually guaranteed to struggle against fast. guards, which is a problem. You know, it's NBA teams, again, the quality of competition of the

NBA just is going up and up, and if teams can attack you, they will. So, yeah, I mean, just this lateral mobility is pretty poor, and it's, that doesn't really ever get significantly better for NBA players. You know, again, just extremely high talent. I mean, the, you know, the, you know, the margins are, are thin, and it's kind of unlikely to be able to, you know, exceed yourself how you were athletically just coming into the league. So, yeah, just, you kind of see it. Like being, even if he can improve his shot, like just being a guy who can hit open spot-up threes is not enough in today's league.

Like Stewart was an excellent example of that when he was just idiotically played a power forward in Weaver's last year. You need to be able to offer more. So Bobby is like Stewart, just too slow to even attack through open lanes. he got some of them in Summer League, but those lanes are not going to be available in the NBA. And he's too slow to attack closeouts, you know, and get to the rim. When he does get to the rim, even if he's not avoiding contact like he did at times in Summer League,

I mean, he's just terrible at finishing there through rim protection. So it's kind of hard to see his route to the NBA because even if he improves as a shooter, even if he improves that, you know, it would take a huge improvement for him to become, you know, kind of viable at it's scoring through contact, scoring through particularly against, you know, even half capable of rim protectors. And, you know, the defense is never going to be good. So it's basically all he has to offer at the moment is,

again, even if that shooting, it comes along, which is no guarantee. All he has to offer is just kind of shooting and passing off the drive. And he's just not much of a threat off the drive. Again, even just attack and close outs. his skill set is very limited. And he's not even a good score around the basket, despite being 6-10 and kind of decently strong.

He just doesn't have the touch. He's bad at it. So I'm not going to classify it as a disappointment because this is a guy who came in his project. He was a second round pick in a weak draft. Very, very often these guys just don't make it. It would have been nice. But it's just, especially, you know,

even after a season even of the G-League, just to see, where he stands, again, in large part in the context of his athletic shortcomings, which he'd have to be good at stuff to overcome. Just really hard to see him being a, you know, quality NBA player. It's just his ceiling may fall well short of the NBA. Moving on to two of the two-way guys. So we got Dennis Jenkins, who Genial made a good summer league. You know, good for him. You know, he was a solid playmaker. I think he shot pretty well, a low turnover. And it's cool. Now, is he good enough to get,

NBA minutes as this team's what would be kind of like third or fourth string handler. I'll talk a little bit about, but I believe are some misconceptions about the roster a little bit later. That's hard to say. So Jenkins' biggest issue is that he's by NBA standards of poor athlete. You know, he's not explosive at all. He's not very quick. You know, those are kind of problems unless you've got something to compensate for them, which he doesn't really. So at the NBA level, so have a great deal of difficulty. And I think this was the case in the G League, but I just, I don't, I'm no expert in the G League, so I don't want to say something I'm not 100% certain about. But against NBA defense, it's going to have a lot of trouble penetrating and

breaking down defenses, not as much as his buddy Sasser, but still trouble. And that's a problem. If you want to be a lead, a lead handler, you have to be able to break down defenses. otherwise you're pretty impotent as a handler and if teams are able to really easily keep you out of the paint then you have two options you know you've either got to be dangerous enough to pull up from two and hit those at a high percentage so that they have to double team you around picks and then constantly watch you in the interior uh or the other option is you fail so and very as i like to you know like to emphasize very few people can can do option number one so i think he would have trouble providing good minutes in the NBA I think He's a guy who could be a very good G-League player, but falls well short of the NBA.

Solid guy to having a two-way contract in case that changes somehow. There's also the question of his size. Yeah, he's 6-4 and has like a somewhat decent wingspan. But he weighs very little. I mean, the guy is, I think, I mean, if you believe the G-League website and the NBA website is like 170 pounds. So that makes him just easily bullied by bigger or more athletic guys in the NBA. NBA, which even including some point guards, absolutely, which further reduces his value. And at that size, you know, if you come with a cost on defense, you got to do even more on

offense to compensate for that, so you better be a good creator and so on and so forth. So good summer league. Seems like a good dude, hardworking, responsible. Is he good enough for the NBA? Probably not. Is he solid having a two-way contract? I'd say so. And finally, it would be Tolu Smith, who, again, is just a good enough.

subject to the brutal value equation for traditional bigs in today's league. I know I like to highlight this, but you look back 10 years ago, being a traditional big wasn't a weakness. Now it is. And, yeah, just the NBA is a harshly unforgiving place to traditional bigs because of how limited they are offensively. And Tolu, he's got decent touch around the basket and is a solid enough rebounder. He is ultimately a below-the-rim traditional big, and that if you're a below-the-room,

traditional big and you're just not, you know, you're not an ideal role man. You can't vertically space the floor. Your ability to finish at the NBA level is going to be probably less than guys who can score above the rim. You better be a pretty darn good defender, like Stewart, for example, who suffers from, well, he really shouldn't be a traditional big, but Bickerstaff, and I hope to goodness that this changes next season. Bickerstaff really bizarrely, I mean, Bickerstaff certainly did some things well. Taking a, you know, a below-the-rim three-point shooting big and turning him into a traditional center was definitely an interesting decision, and I think that can't last. Even if it's Stewart, who just prefers to play in the interior, as an NBA coach, you've got to say

too bad. I'm going to play you in the way that gives you the most value. But, you know, if you're Stuart and you're a traditional center, then below-the-room traditional center, then, yeah, if you're going to provide value, you've got to be a pretty darn good defender, and Stewart is an elite defender. Is Tolu-Smith and elite defender at the NBA level. No? Is he even going to be a particularly good defender at the NBA level? I would say also no. Like the requirements to even be a third string center in the NBA are pretty steep. So again, likely to play in the NBA? I might say no. Good to have on a two-way contract. Sure. And it's nice to see that this regime is actually responsible with its two-way contracts,

unlike the Jack Ars, who previously ran the pistons and gave a, you know, spent, gave a two-way contract for a substantial period of time to a player with no MBA upside whose primary qualification was that his father used to be Weaver's boss. Speaking of Buddy Beheim, I don't know where Weaver found the nerve to waste even something like a two-way slot, which is most likely not going to provide you anything, but could. You know, just ask, you know, Caruso, Dort, who just started for a championship team, who else gave Vincent, Max Drews, Duncan Robinson. it doesn't you know they don't often produce NBA players but they can sometimes and you've got to make use to the every maximum degree at all of the resources that are available to you so ends the Pistons recently signed somebody who did somewhat well down the stretch of last season I can't remember his name I haven't researched him yet but you know if you have a young player who's played some decent NBA minutes you know that pretty much automatically qualifies him as as a decent option for a two-way contract all right so

So from there, yeah, I was happy with Summer League just from Holland alone. You know, that that was a big deal. We were unlikely to see, I mean, that this was like the least interesting Summer League for the Pistons in a long time because they didn't have a first round pick. And goodness, right now I can't even remember who their second round pick was. Oh man, I'm having a serious brain fart here. Well, whatever. This has been happening to me lately. Sometimes I can't remember things that I really should.

be able to remember. Blame it on sleep, blame it on whatever. I just wish it would stop happening. This is actually kind of concerning, but in any case, oh, right, Chas Lanier. Okay, I had to look it up. My goodness, that's a little embarrassing. All right, so let's talk Chas Lanier,

because obviously he merits mention. So I went over Lanier quite a bit after some recent episode right after the draft. So Lanier is pretty much as advertised, you know, it is a sweet stroke. You get off quickly. You know, should be a good shooter, but cannot really offer anything else at the moment. So, yeah, we'll see where it goes. I mean, a guy picked at his draft position is not always going to really provide you solid value. It's just what it is. I mean, in the second round, you rather look for a guy who, you know, who has a floor that might allow him to contribute in the short term, but those guys almost certainly don't have high ceilings.

Or you take a guy, yeah, that's basically when there. You just, even he is a bit of a project and you know he's fairly old by NBA draft standards but whatever the case the question isn't his shooting the question is can he do anything else in a league that demands that every rotation player be multi-skilled in some way and in summer league uh he seems very uncomfortable on the ball uh it certainly wasn't good from the interior now the passing i mean and so far as you know passing from like a non-lead handler in summer league is really a thing uh was not great. In defense, he was sort of okay. For long stretches, he was invisible. So the question remains the same. Yeah, he can shoot, but what else can he do at the NBA level? And you've got to be

able to do a lot of things well at the NBA level to be worth fielding over somebody else. Okay, sorry, I'll overcome my embarrassment here at completely forgetting whom they drafted. You know what? I kind of blamed the melatonin. I took it, I woke up about an hour before I wanted to today and took melatonin, and now I've been, as it always happens, I've been drowsy. for the last every hour I've been awake. It's about 1 o'clock at this point. So, let's talk more about free agencies. Something I want to visit first is the talk of, you know, we need a backup power for, we need a backup point card. So I think it's pretty clear. Well, Langdon made it clear that Carus Leverett is basically the bench handler. And I think insofar as it's possible with

injuries and follow trouble, I think you're going to have two Levert, Ivy, and Cade on the floor at all times. So you have two guys who can initiate offense, you know, cool. Is Leverett kind of like a straight point guard like Dennis Schroeder was? Nope. He's stronger in other ways, you know, not really quite the same, you know, traditional playmaker, but considerably stronger going downhill, even a better shooter. I mean, Schroeder was very good for the pistons in the playoffs. Do you know in the regular season? I'm sure he's probably a top 10 backup point card. He's also five inches shorter and it's like 30 pounds lighter than than Carers Lever. The Pistons, Langdon did make it clear that the Pistons emphasized size. I mean, upgrading Beasley was not the plan, but it happened anyway.

The shortest player projected to be in the rotation right now is Ivy at 6-4, like a 6-10 wingspan. So pretty good. So the Pistons need a backup point card. I think they'd like to have another handler who can come off the bench. You know, maybe if the market is dry enough, that guy is somebody like campaign who isn't ideal, but it would be a solid point guard. And is he, you know, is the market dry enough that he'd be willing to come here and play third string and not have any minutes unless somebody gets injured. I hope so. Or you have Monta Morris, who, you know, pain, I think is like 6-2, 6-3. Both these guys are small. Morris, in particular, small. Of course, there's a nobody for the Pistons because of his injury, but, you know,

would absolutely be a solid third-string guy. So do I hope the Pistons can pick up one of those guys? Yes, now the complication with the Pistons picking up anybody else, and they have two standard NBA contract slots open. You can have a maximum of 15 on the first day, you know, by the first day of the regular season, is that anybody who joins the team at this point is going to do so knowing that they are looking at very few minutes unless somebody gets injured. That's not an attractive sell for a free agent who might be able to get rotation minutes elsewhere. It is a little bit puzzling to see guys like, you know, even the caliber of Morris and Payne and Lyles and Boucher still be on the market. But, you know, like I've, I'm sure I said numerous times

at this point, if you have to choose between having, you know, if you're on a minimum contract, who knows if the business will use the bi-annual exception, which they still have open, just about 5.1 million. But if you're on a small salary by NBA standards and your choice is between playing more minutes or less minutes, you're going to play more minutes. So, and the pistons just don't really have many to offer. Yeah, you can say guys get injured, but, you know,

well, you'll get minutes if, you know, there are injuries, you know, that opened up minutes at your position. Because obviously, you know, like a guy like pain isn't going to get minutes if, like, Tobias Harris gets injured. I guess you'd move Leverd up the one. lineup in that case. So maybe you do. But maybe you don't. It's just not a good sell to guys who can get minutes elsewhere. Where one of those guys might become available is if they don't have better offers. And, you know, sorry guys, but I hope that ends up being the case for one or two of you.

Now, there's the question of backup power forward, which I've seen a lot. I think it's worth reiterating that this is not an NBA in which guys, you know, like power forwards are all big anymore. Some of them are. but you see plenty of lineups with guys who are fairly small by old standards. Guys like, I mean, whatever, I was going to say Kauai, but he's an inherent. I mean, I'm not going to use one of the greatest players of all time as an example. And Kauai gets undersold. It's like, you know, I think often he's, I've seen people, whatever, you know, refer to him as just kind of like this really good two-way player. It gets forgotten that Kauai is an amazing score.

like one of the great three-level guys in NBA history. And it's really a shame that he's kind of gone their way of Grant Hill. So, well, more success than Grand Hill, obviously two championships, but just an incredible bit, just truly incredible basketball player who has had a lot of his later career undone by injuries. But my point is you have plenty of guys, you see plenty of lineups in which the power forward is fairly small. Now, is it ideal on defense against teams that are fielding, you know, significantly

bigger guys who can bully in the post. No, the number of, like, power forwards who really bully in the post is fairly small. I mean, the distinction between small forward and power forward is become increasingly smaller as just the spacing era has gone on. So it's not like, well, you know, disaster. We just, you know, somebody gets injured, like Tobias gets injured, and we just don't have anybody who can play the position. That's not true. I mean, Assar Thompson has, you know, decent size, and he's very strong, he's very athletic, he's got great lengths. He's a guy whom, I think we'll play a significant number of minutes at power forward this season, even if Tobias plays 82 games. Ron Hollins, who's, you know, kind of slight, hopefully puts on more weight

this offseason, you know, 6-8, good wingspan. How he became 6-8, I'm not sure, because he would clocked in it below 6, a little bit below 6-7. Everything gets rounded up in the NBA. And, you know, at his combine year and very, very few players grow from like, very few humans grow from like age of 18 onward. Well, above 18. I don't remember the exact data. But whatever, maybe he's 6.8 now, like 610 wingspan at the combine. And, you know, you can place a power forward minutes. Again, these don't need to be like big guys. You don't need to go out and get somebody who's like 610, 611 and beefy. And, you know, sometimes you're going up against one of these beefier guys. You've got a faster player who can attack off the dribble that used to be Tobias back when

power forwards were significantly bigger and often somewhat slow his ability. You know, he was small by the standards of power forwards, you know, 10 years ago. And then his ability to, and it's like, okay, he's giving up a little bit on defense against these guys who can push him around, which was more of the style back then, when often your power forwards is not out of the question for them basically to be smaller centers. And those guys either moved to center successfully, became shooters power forward or not bottle of the league. You know, aside from like elite examples like Blake Griffin, who even he ended up winning out of shoot, guys like Janus, obviously, who, you know, are exceptions, but still need to be surrounded by shooters, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So, you know, back then it was like, okay, it gives up a little bit on defense, but he can beat guys at the position on offense, you know, and there's still some merit to that. You know, even guys are smaller and quicker at the power forward. My point is it's like not a disaster. My point also comes back to the fact that, well, two things. Ten-man rotations are very rare in the NBA. I mean, you can say, like, in the playoffs, sure, OKC and in Indiana ran pretty deep rotations.

They both have the luxury of doing so. OKC because these players are, like, you don't have to convince good players to come to your team if they're already on the team. And it's like the vast majority of OKC's roster was drafted. And so they didn't have that issue. And Indiana made some really good trades for low-cost players. And so you combine those players with the significant number of draftees on the team as well. You know, guys on rookie contracts, I mean, same with OKC. And yeah, you do have depth there.

and it's like, cool, we're going to do that. But realistically, in the regular season, teams play maybe nine guys, barring foul with trouble, maybe even eight. Mike Bakerstaff, pretty much exclusive, almost exclusively preferred eight in seasons two through four in Cleveland. You know, it's for two reasons. Number one, you want to get significant minutes for all your best players. Number two, a lot of those guys expect it.

And it's number three, you know, bringing guys on in free agency when you just don't have the minutes for them is kind of a problem. So even Fontecu, sorry about the sniffles. Fontecchio, I'm quite certain if he was with the team would have been probably outside of the rotation this summer. So it's not like guy comes in, he gets Fontecchio's minutes. You know, you're getting Ivy back. You get a star from the start of the season. You got more minutes for Holland. And, you know, just the minutes aren't there. So yeah, I mean, the pistons have to fill one of those roster spots because you got to have 14, you know, outside of like injury situations in which, you can get a dispensation for a limited period during the season.

So they went into last season with 14, you know, just to maintain flexibility. And so maybe they do that again, but they'll add at least one more player. And, you know, maybe they feel like Jenkins can provide them like those fourth string handling minutes. And in that case, they probably look for something bigger. I feel very confident that they don't consider Bobby Clintonman to be ready to provide NBA minutes at this point. But, you know, I'm just underlining this just by saying that, number one, getting good free agents at this point, you know, getting a solid free agent. Again, even like the likes of

Morris, Payne, Biles, Boucher, when you just don't have the minutes to offer is more difficult. But also, it's like, especially on the forward front, it's like not a disaster if you don't have, you know, if you don't add somebody else's power forward size. That is not like a huge gap in the roster right now. Is it ideal to be playing a SAR and run a power forward? Not necessarily. Is it a problem? I'd say also no. You know, you'd see guys. like, you know, I'm in Duncan Robinson seeing power forward minutes for the heat, granted the heater, an exception from time to time. So yeah. And again, this is that this, the season is not about, you know, getting your most flawless roster you possibly can. This

season is about having, you know, veterans who have to provide the framework and then seeing what you can get from your youth. I mean, I think Trajan made that clear in many ways, both in how we operated and just how we said also, you know, the season's about growing from within, you know, as much as I think some people would like to, you know, and again, there's no wrong way being a fan. I don't fault anybody who thinks like this, you know, I just think differently. You know, I understand you see wins last season. That feels very good after a, you know, long time of, you know, futility and even with the, you know, 2010's Pistons who made the playoffs couple times. I mean, there was just the ceilings on particularly the 2019 team. It's not very good.

the 20 and of course the 2016 team went into the next season trying to win as many games as possible you see more wins it's nice to see even more wins the next season but this is about building a contender sustainably and you know yeah I mean how much is of a difference is like a you know an additional power we're going to make probably not a ton but yeah this this is a this is a team that really needs to see what it has from the youth and they're going to get priority so yeah that's that's the priority for this season I think wangton will stick with it even it makes uh even if if the Pissons have clearly taken a small step backward. Hopefully Tom Gores is still keeping us out of things or his hands out of things.

And yeah. So finally, a little bit more about free agency. A question I've gotten, is the team better now than it was last season? So that I'd say is going to depend pretty much exclusively on the youth. And we'll talk about the team at the end of the season because obviously it was a big problem that the Pistons didn't have a viable secondary handler last season. I just wasn't really very well suited to it. Bigger staff didn't really trust him anyway.

and after he went down, it was a big problem. Kate was off the floor. You know, you got Marcus Sasser, who needless to say, fell flat in his face because the guy just doesn't have the ability to break down NBA defenses. So once Truder came along, the bench immediately became significantly better.

Life became easier on K in the late game because another guy who could handle and wasn't just nearly as predictable. The offense wasn't nearly as predictable as it was to that, you know, to that point through no fault of Kade's own. It's just like he's the only guy who can create offense, especially after Ivy went, especially after Ivy's injury. So you effectively replace Shruder with Levert.

Again, Levert better going downhill. Shruder's pretty weak at the rim. And it's a better shooter, even though he's fairly shaky himself, because Schroeder has just never been a reliable shooter. And the size is greater. You lose a little bit in terms of playmaking. I'd call it a minor. I wasn't super high on Levert,

and I hoped that Shruder be back just because, I don't know, I kind of like the guy. I mean, he was a solid backup point guard for the piss, and so on and so forth. But you did get larger, and, you know, you did get some more ability to break down defenses. So I'd call that kind of like a minor win. Beasley versus Robinson. Robinson, you know, could Beasley, if Beasley was able to match last season, then that's a downgrade despite, again, the advantage in size that Robinson brings.

Because Beasley had one of the great catch-and-shoots seasons of all the time. Now, could he replicate that? That's a different story. Like Robinson also had one of the, you know, as an NBA sophomore, had one of the great NBA shooting seasons of all time too. Like incredible shooting, ridiculous efficiency. I think it was like 68% true shooting, something like that. And he was never able to replicate that again either. So hard to say, you know, assuming probably realistic regression to a degree from Beasley,

it's probably a wash. I mean, Beasley, I think, is the more talented of the two-one, difficult. threes, especially last season when he was ridiculous on highly contest the threes. Robinson isn't quite that good. He's got a little bit more on ball juice. He's probably a smarter player in terms of his ability to read plays and make passes off the drive. He's somewhat better at attacking closeouts. So, yeah, again, assuming, you know, a reasonable amount of regression to his career mean by Beasley, I'd say it's probably a wash. You know, and Robinson will offer probably some a little bit better defense just on the basis of his size, you know, some additional stuff,

you know, to a degree on offense because it's just smarter player. And again, growing up in that heat system is going to do good things to you. And kind of subtract Fontechio, which is what it is. You bring back Reed. So center rotation is going to be the same. So this comes back to two chief factors. You know, number one, health is always a factor. And the Pistons were very fortunate in their health last season. Outside of Ivy's injury, of course, which was a significant loss. And the SAR missing time early on, they really didn't have guys who missed time until, like, the last week or two of the season.

And then, of course, Stuart was out against the Knicks, which sucked. I would have, you know, I wish we had a way to see exactly, you know, some lens into how that would have looked if he was around. Because I just think it would have been a significantly different series. You know, yeah, Fon Tecchio, sadly, just didn't work out in Detroit. it and again would probably have been out of the rotation anyway barring injuries. Last season form was not a minus value rotation player. Maybe that was his toe, who knows.

He had toe surgery before the season, but yeah, he lost a step, which seems unlikely to be a long-term thing, who knows. And just shooting just wasn't anywhere near as good. Even jazz caliber, like sophomore jazz level, Fon Tecchio from, you know, to repeat myself, I'm sure I've said this before. You know, before he was traded the Pistons that season, would have been very good to have for the Pistons. But again, you know, you have guys back, you know, Ivy's back,

Asa will be playing from the beginning. You have Holland getting more minutes. Yeah, again, FonTech, you're probably out of the rotation anyway. So, yeah, health was a big thing for the Pistons last season. They were a very healthy team overall. They were an exceptionally healthy team outside of Ivy. and I'm not pooh-poo-pooing, you know, the wins, and I was certainly not complaining, well, until a certain point, when, like, basically the Pistons had spectacular health in terms of a spectacularly good fortune in terms of health on the part of the opposition.

I mean, virtually all the teams they played against were missing their first or second best players. I'd say Beasley was probably the Pistons' second best player last season. Ivy was really, really just picking it up when he got injured, and Bakerstaff was really just figuring out the offense. So, yeah, so you had other teams missing guys who were more key for them than Ivy was for the Pistons. Like, the Pistons virtually played. It was very rare for them not to play against a team that was not either exhausted, like second game of back-to-back, third game, four nights, or missing, like, their first or the second best player or both due to injuries. I only got a little bit annoyed at it when it had been happening almost chronically for two months.

And it's like, man, I just want to see what this team looks like against good competition, which has happened so rarely. health is unlikely to be as good, probably fortune, you know, in terms of opposition absences is unlikely to be as good because that was immensely improbable. It was just an incredibly improbable, you know, succession of it happening again and again. So the Pistons will probably, you know, but on the other hands, you have Levert, presumably for an entire season versus you had Schroeder for like, I don't know, 20-something games. So that's a boost.

You know, again, Ivy was never really trusted by bigger staff. as a lead handler in a way that presumably Leverett will be because he played that role under Baker's death a couple seasons ago. So I think, you know, if you allow for kind of more average health, you know, more average quality of competition in terms of health for them, you know, you add Levert into the mix. And so I'd say it's kind of a wash what's really going to, or maybe a slight negative, what's really going to determine, oh, I should mention also that Jalen Duren, presumably. won't be coming in and deciding he doesn't care for like the first 25 games.

Even though I have my reservations about Duren, I mean, he was quite a bit better if still had his struggles, particularly in defense. When he decided he felt like he was going to start working hard and playing a responsible team first game. So presumably I would imagine going to come in and play that way from the beginning, I would hope. So another plus. So, yeah, I'd say roughly a wash in the off-season. Just like everything else, what happens?

you know, in the offseason, the roster changes. So just like everything else, and this is going to be by far, you know, nothing is even close. The primary determinants of this team ceiling is going to be how well the youth play and what kind of progress they can make. So that's really going to determine things. I think there are reasons to be helpful. But if the youth can make significant steps, then I think this will be barring horrible health, a significantly, well, a meaningfully better team in this upcoming season. So that's my long-winded answer to the pitch. Pistons, like, improve significantly in free agency? No. Was there really a, you know, a realistic probability of getting, like, a big fish, you know, even by the standards of today's free agency? Probably

not. If you still want to get enough minutes for the youth, which was an absolute priority. Yes, this front office was never going to sacrifice minutes for an important, I mean, an important young player for the sake of bringing on, you know, a decent free agent. Again, that's just not what this offseason was about. Ten years ago. or, you know, even five years ago, well, six, back when Tom Gores was obsessed with an notion that all you have to do is just build a winning culture, quote unquote, whatever that means, and make the playoffs, and then you'll just magically keep getting better. Things probably would have been different.

Don't get me wrong. Like, I think, you know, a Tom Gores who has always been willing to spend, that's never a concern, and that's not something to be taken for granted. So, you know, a Tom Gores who is keeping it, himself who's just hired reasonable professionals and is, you know, reasonably capable professionals, which he hadn't done up until this offseason. And keeping his hands out of things is probably a fairly solid owner, you know. He's letting the professionals, again, hopefully capable. We'll see as time goes on. I think Bakerstaff has his ceiling and that if the Pistons

really become a contender, it'll be with their next coach. Wengden has just started off well, you know, but of course, you know, and rather, of course. you know, time will tell. Hopefully continues doing well. So, yeah, if he just, you know, keeps his hands out of things and continues to spend money on the pistons, which he's always been willing to do, I categorically disagree with the notion that he's an absentee owner who doesn't care. I think he cares a great deal, but was just incredibly amateurish and bumbling and meddlesome for a long time. Yeah, I think he's willing to spend whatever it takes, and that's an asset.

So I forgot how I even got on to this. All right. So finally, some questions just briefly, because my goodness, I'm getting close to an hour. Just a couple. What do I think happens to Marcus Sasser? So how it works with first round rookie contracts, you've got two guaranteed years and then two team option years. And unlike other contracts, the team option is just typically right, you know, just decided upon in the vast majority of cases right before free agency opens. For those two option years, for guys on rookie contracts, you decide a year in advance. So I think it's, you know, it's a little bit after the regular season starts when you have to make a decision. So the Pistons, the front office will need to make that decision for Sasser's 2026, 2027 salary in, you know, by October.

You know, he's paid only five million, so maybe you keep him around for depth. But at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they just said no. You know, having seen what they have seen in terms of his ability to handle the ball, and the extremely high probability is going to be a six-foot-two shooting specialist, I don't think they hold on. You always, especially in today's CBA, wants to maintain all the flexibility you can. Just you never know what will happen. I mean, they could use him a salary matching, so who knows.

But in terms of his role in the rotation, I think fairly small. I don't think that they will ever want him to come in. And, like, fairly small in a sense of no minutes outside of injury situations. I don't think they're going to even bother trying to have him come in and, you know, and be a handler off the bench. And as a shooter, he's inconsistent and his defensive value is pretty poor, despite the fact that he's pretty smart and works hard. You know, you're 6'1 and a quarter inch,

and they're guys who are bigger than you, and that just comes with certain realities. this one I won't get too deep into because again I'm kind of tired of talking about Duren and you guys have heard plenty of you know you've heard more than enough of what I have to say in the matter so I had to choose between a Sarr and Duren who would I pick I mean I would pick a Sarr without a doubt you know even though I'm you know maybe the probabilities of him becoming a shooter and not necessarily very high I think the probabilities of Duren improving his defense to the degree he really needs to in order to be even a viable player

on a team that wants to contend for a championship is very low. And whereas, you know, Asar, even though he's got the weakness of being a perimeter player who can't shoot, just does a great deal more to offer. And if he can shoot, of course, then you've got, like, possibly a max caliber player on your hands. And finally, in the context of the Pistons and also just in general, how do I feel about the Devin Booker extension, which is very, very big. So it's worth noting that the extension begins in 27, 2027, 27, 20, 28 season, so two seasons from now when, you know, you still have, even if you don't see the full 10%

year-over-year increase in the cap, which is not projected to be the case, excuse me, it's not projected to be a full 10% increase. You'll still see significant increase in the cap. And so, I mean, Devin Booker, you know, his level of experience, the max of his cap, you know, the cap max is 35%. It could be a little bit higher than, you know, in this first season, it could be a little bit higher than that because you can actually on certain extensions exceed at that 35% of the cap.

You know, is it worthwhile? That's a harder question to answer. I mean, it depends on what kind of value you're looking for from him. If you have to do it to keep Devin Booker and you're the sons and you don't have control over your picks until like your first pick is in like 2032 that you own, you pay the price to keep the guy. I mean, I don't blame any owner who doesn't want to tank for no reason.

Like you can say, yeah, the worst place in the NBA to be is in the middle where, you know, you're not going to get the high draft pick to really improve your team, but you're also not good enough to win anything meaningful. But that goes away if you don't have your picks, you know, where just losing games, it doesn't mean you're providing a better opportunity for it to improve your team through the draft. It just means that you're going to lose money and lose fans. you know, much better in that case to be a middling team. So I think it's just kind of something that the Suns had to do.

In the context of the Pistons, it does make it quite a bit more difficult to trade for the guy, you know, to match salaries. Whether or not, I mean, but if you're the Pistons and you can match salaries and you say, well, this is going to put us over the top, then you do it. But of course, that's immensely hypothetical. And how would the Suns feel about that? And, you know, I just don't, it makes it less likely to be in the car just because trading, for a contract of that size is very, very difficult, you know, in terms of just matching salaries.

But for the contract itself, probably overpaid, Booker, who's not like a top 10 player, but it's the cost of doing business in the NBA. These guys want to get paid. And if Isbia, the owner of the sons doesn't want to tank any time in the near future, which he should not because there's no point to it, then you, you know, you keep him. It is what it is. All right, so that'll be it for this episode. As always, hope you're all doing great.

Thank you for listening, and I will catch you in the next episode.