Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 25: Preseason First Impressions

Episode Date: December 17, 2020

This episodes discusses first impressions from the team's two initial preseason games.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Drive into the Basket. I am Mike. I am here with Tommy. We are here for a bit of a mid-preseason review episode. Just going to be talking a little bit about our thoughts thus far, and we'll leave space for a little bit of ranting at the end. So the Pistons still have a couple more preseason games as of the recording of this episode. They play there two, of course, against the New York Knicks.

Their next two will be against the Washington Wizards. Those will be on Thursday, the 17th. It's Saturday the 19th. That'll be the end of preseason, and the team will open the season against the Minnesota Timberwolves on Wednesday, the 23rd. And from there on, the Pistons have a pretty brutal schedule,

really for the first half of the season. But we'll talk about that more in our next episode, which will be released before the season itself begins. So we're just going to jump right into, it's probably the player of most interest to everybody. That would be Killian Hayes. and really what we've seen of him so far and our thoughts on the matter. Once you take it away, Tommy, what do you think about what we've seen from Killian thus far?

Yeah, so we talked a lot about Killian going into the season. And even during the draft preview stuff, we all felt like he was kind of the likely choice, you know, being at a position of need and kind of having the skill set that the Pistons were kind of looking for. And the two main issues were that we talked about anyway, were that he can't go right, and his shooting is still a bit of a question mark. And unfortunately, both of those flaws were very much on display in these first two games. And of course, this preseason, it's after a long hiatus, but it's still a pretty big concern

for me personally. It was the reason that out of, I think, the four likely candidates that we had talked about, this is the reason that I was kind of low on Killian, and unfortunately it seems to have continued on to the start of his NBA career. we saw that even against a team like the Knicks, they're not overly talented, Killian just could not get to the basket, and he could not go right.

They would do the same thing every time. They would just force him right. He'd kill his dribble, and that was that for the most part. I'd argue that starting Killian is hurting him more than helping him. It's quite clear that he's uncomfortable playing against this tier of competition, and we've seen how easily they've gotten him to revert to his comfort zone, which is his left hand.

And that's obviously a huge problem because, you know, you force him right, he kills his dribble. And the lack of spacing certainly doesn't help. But I think the bigger issue is that Killian doesn't look ready as of now. And it's not a huge deal yet, but I think we should bring him off the bench. I know that you disagree. I know your philosophy for, like, developing talents is a little bit different from mine and certainly different from Casey. So what do you think? I don't feel too bad about it.

It's, I mean, I don't know if it's a little bit cliche to say, you know, it's only been a couple of preseason games, but it has only been a couple of preseason games. I think one thing that's important to take into consideration from the very get-go is that the off-season was drastically different than any off-season, which any incoming draft class, really, you know, anybody in the NBA at all has seen, and, geez, I don't even know when the last, when the last off-season like this was, it will never. I think what I'm saying is, what I'm saying, I don't know when the last time there was an offseason that was that was as different from the norm as the one we just had.

I'm thinking, you know, maybe in like the 50s or 60s or something, you know, something was just drastically different, whatever the case. When you look at it, a lot of these guys, you know, and a lot of NBA players in general, you know, not just rookies, but we'll focus on the rookies. The vast majority of these guys have not played competitive basketball since March thereabouts. It wasn't a typical draft in which you get drafted in June, the season's starts in October. And for the entire summer, you've got access to the team trainers.

You've got people to practice with. You've got Summer League. You've got an extended training camp. Really, you had these rookies come in and are thrown into the fire right away. And their conditioning may not be the best. They have very little experience with the team on which they're playing. I mean, these guys had like, you know, I think less than a week of training camp. They didn't have any opportunity to scrimmage, according to the players from what they've said.

And when you have somebody like Killian who's coming in from a system in which, you know, he wasn't playing in the greatest league. I mean, it wasn't bad league, but it wasn't the greatest league. And on his team, he was the undisputed number one guy. And then you're bringing him into a system against, that's much more competitive with players who are faster, stronger, better. and you are just playing a completely different role. And really it's just completely different. I mean, he just went from apples to oranges, so to speak, with very little time in between.

So I'm not feeling too concerned about it. From what he said also, he said that he thought he was in good NBA condition. He found out that he really wasn't. I don't think that's a bad thing. Again, you're taking like a 19-year-old. and he's never experienced anything like the NBA before. I mean, usually you, even Summer League gives you, Summer League's a pretty good quality of competition.

Even Summer League gives you an idea of what you are dealing with, but he didn't have Summer League. He just came over from his experience in the Euro Cup, and now suddenly he's playing in the NBA. And all of these guys over the summer, you know, even in their training, we're operating under pandemic conditions. People were not getting together.

So I think we really need to allow for a greater period of transition. Now, whether or not he should be starting, I think it's still best for him to be in the starting lineup. As long as you're not exposing him. I think the point at which you might take him to the bench is if you feel like you're just exposing him to constant failure because that can be really tough on anybody. I'd say particularly guys in their first year in the NBA. But at this point, I just think you give him time to grow. I mean, he's just growing into a drastically different role than what he's accustomed to.

against drastically better competition than he's accustomed to. And when we're talking about his performance in the first couple games, yeah, it did seem like he reverted to going rights. He just, he had trouble overall. The first game, he was just clearly very out of source, just discombobulated, which I think is completely fair. I mean, I think he traveled three times. He pommed the ball once, you know, those were, or maybe he traveled twice, whatever.

It was like half his turnovers were just those were not bad past turnovers. They were just screw up turnovers that just came of being. being uncomfortable. But in the first game, I think Casey ran one legitimate pick and roll for him. And I don't know if this is because Casey's thinking about, well, you're coming from a team where you were the center of the offense. And it was like Reggie Jackson in his first season with the Pistons when it's like, you know what?

Our offense is based around just you and you running pick and rolls. And that's what Killian was dealing with in Euro Cup. and maybe Casey's thinking, well, we're going to throw you in the fire and make you play a different role here. But it was kind of like he just got very little of what he's used to. I mean, your average point guard gets his pick and roll. So in game two, I mean, I think he maybe got two or three. So he's also just playing a style with which he's very unfamiliar. His shot's a little bit of a concern, but, you know, I'm really not going to worry about his shot until next year.

If he's not a good shooter like halfway through next year, then fine. Yeah, I mean, I'm approaching more from the scouting report. His concerns were the lack of athleticism, the lack of burst, and he's not going to be able to get around those things unless his shot is either falling, and that stepback is for real. That was one of the big things for me, and he shot a few of those, and in some ways it seemed like he was passing up a better shot to try the fake and then the pump fake and then do the step back.

So, I mean, shot selection, that's not a huge deal right now, I feel like it would benefit him to just come off the bench just because right now, just to keep the ball in his hands, he's sticking with his left hand. And once he actually makes those, his passing is looking fine. It's actually really, really good, good as advertised. That's great, but he can't create in the half court because, you know, they've game-planned him. They know that they can stop him pretty easily if he goes right.

And I think it would be better for him to play against a lower tier of competition, you know, like bench players so that he can get more comfortable with his right hand. Because there's one turnover in the second game was when he tried to go right. I think he tried to cross over to his right and then he just lost it. He's just not comfortable with it or he's not comfortable with either the length or the level of athleticism of the players that he's going against right now. But either way, I think like you said, you don't want to expose him to constant failure. I think the way that he gets comfortable and like stuff maybe it's a matter of overthinking.

I think the best way to deal with that is give him, a better, an easier level of competition so that he can add more to his arsenal. Because he just doesn't seem to be up to the challenge of the starting lineup right now. And maybe I'm wrong and maybe it's just, you know, like it's two games. It's after a nine-month hiatus. But right now it seems like all the things that we were concerned about with Killian going into his rookie year, that they seem to be very much there. I mean, I would say, I think there are been things that he's done right that should be noted.

I mean, certainly his basketball IQ, his core vision, his acuity as a passer, those are as advertised. He's very good at finding the open man, you know, no matter where the open man is, including if the open man is behind him at the 3.1, he's very good at that. I just, I think, I'll just reiterate. He's been playing a style that is very unfamiliar to him. Like, it's not that he has been not getting as many pick and roles as he is accustomed to, which will never happen in the NBA. You're never going to run an offense like that.

We're just running pick and roll after pick and roll after pick and roll. I mean, that style of offense was pretty close to death when Jackson did it five seasons ago. And now it's just gone. I mean, you've got to run a more freewheeling offense than that. If you want to have an effective offense, you just going to have to. But it's not just that he hasn't been getting his normal volume, which he will never get in the NBA. It's that he's been getting almost no volume at all. So you're taking the scenario, just the sort of play type scenario, in which he is most comfortable,

and you're not letting him do it. So I think he's looking worse than he would otherwise. Of course, there are concerns about the lineup, you know, the lineup in which he is playing. And, you know, I will just say one thing before I forget. I think it would be really bad if we're seeing a roster in which you're just playing five veterans in the starting lineup. I mean, I think that's just something to be avoided, period, which would be the case. Killian weren't starting. I mean, it's not just for a matter of form.

It's just like, it's kind of like a what on earth are we doing here. And it basically you're ensuring that these younger guys are not going to be getting the minutes. Because let's face it, I mean, it doesn't matter how well Sadiq Bay plays. I mean, he's not going to start at small forward. Seku is not going to start a power forward, no matter how well he plays, those minutes are going to go to Grants and Griffin. And that's that.

Maybe Svee gets into the ground level at shooting guard. We'll talk about that a little bit later. But whatever the case. I think that the starting lineup, I mean, I think you would have a hard time finding a worse lineup in which to play Killian Hayes. I mean, you look at it. You have you have Hayes who really want to function on the ball a lot. He has to learn to be a good offball player, period. Just you have to have that skill if you want to be an effective point guard, effective player in the NBA for the most part.

Unless you're just a superstar caliber talent. It just makes sense to give you the ball all the time. And, you know, I'm not talking Westbrook, who that doesn't work for. I'm talking maybe Harden. but even for him it's not ideal. And Janus, of course, hopefully for his sake, we'll learn to be able to shoot threes

because it's actually a problem for the bucks and has been a problem in the playoffs that you can't. But whatever the case, yeah, you want to be able to give him some time on the ball in a normal looking offense in the Pistons, and this is partly the fault of the fact that Blake Griffin is on the team cannot run a normal offense. I've said this about Griffin before.

Great player. And the young guys have had only good things to say about his presence on the team and in his role thus far as a mentor and so on and so forth. And it seems very clear that he's absolutely willing to be more facilitator on the courts for whatever that's worth. But Blake Griffin is kind of an anachronism. I mean, it doesn't really fit too well into any modern offense in the NBA right now. He's a guy who's going to do, is going to be by far as best on the ball, who can only

play one position, who can only play a certain way, who's going to be operating primarily from the interior. And he's not a guy who's going to play in a free-flowing offense. with guys just running around and then just trying to find mismatches and so on and so forth. He's also a crap fit next to Killian because, again, he needs to have the ball a lot. He can pop, but he can't roll. I mean, you have Mason Plumley, and I think you could say with Mason Plumley, his play, we'll talk about this again a little bit later, but his play might improve with time and familiarity,

but he is what you see. He's a guy who can't pop, he can roll, but he's not a lop thread. And if Griffin has the ball, he's doing nothing, and so is everybody else. You have Jeremy Grant, who's a good three-point shooter, but right now he was brought to Detroit on the promise that he would be able to take on a larger offensive load, which means creating offense. He's a guy when he gets the ball he's trying to create on his own. Again, we'll talk about that later, but that's just the reality of the thing.

And then you have Dilan Wright, who is himself primarily an on-ball player. And sure, he might be able to shoot threes, but he's mostly going to want to take the ball inside into the basket. And it's just a mess of a starting lineup with very little spacing, and just very little in the way of means to just run that offense where you give killing the ball and run a pick or do whatever. Or even just let him develop in the context of a modern offense, whatever. It's just a gigantic mess.

So I think that counts against him as well. Sure, it may be good to get him some reps against a, you know, against easier opposition. But I think at this point we just haven't seen what he's capable of doing in an offense that is actually functional in which he's getting the opportunities to do what he's good at. So again, like we both said, two games in the preseason. I'm not concerned. And honestly, the Pistons are, I hope, you know, I hope are not keeping themselves to a timetable. And I hope the idea is, as Casey has said, and I hope this is the case with all the,

with all the rookies to let them make mistakes and improve them those. So if Hayes is still, if Hayes has shown no improvement over the course of this season, which I think is unlikely, then I will be concerned. I'm not going to start panicking until, they're not panicking. I'm not going to start getting kind of anxious about it until next season. But the fact is that when you have a player like Hayes, who is very team focused, who has a great attitude,

a great work ethic, and an excellent basketball IQ, I think he has a certain floor. And it might be a disappointing floor for the pistons, but I don't think he will bust out of the NBA. And I think he will be, at the very least, an average point card. So you got anything further to say about Killing Hayes before we move on to our next individual. or individuals actually.

I think this is one of those rare cases where you're more optimistic than me. I think his floor is a lot lower than that if he can't go right and he can't shoot. Yeah. Well, yeah, there's that, but I don't think those circumstances will continue. I think at the very least he will become a decent spot-up shooter. Like you said, he's taking some really, really difficult shots right now. For the vast majority of his three-point shots have been sidesteps or fadeaways or stepbacks. Yeah.

I mean, even like the reason that Luca Donchich does not have a great three-point percentage is not because he's a bad shooter. It's because he takes super difficult three-point shots. And that's what Killing has been doing thus far in his first two games in the best league in the world. And, you know, on the plus side, if he can pull off their shots, I mean, we've talked about that. We've talked about the underdraft previews. I mean, it's a huge asset to be able to make those shots. But you also just want to take good shots when you have them, which he hasn't done so far. coming into the league with reputation of being a great shooter.

So it's still a concern for me. That was like one of the things that he flashed in the German league that stepped back. And that was one of the things that we really want to see translate. But I don't know. It's not like he came in. I know in the German league he shot like 40% on those. But earlier that year, it averaged out to about 30% on threes. No, yeah.

You know, on threes in general. Yeah. He was, however, a very effective, like actually very effective pull-up mid-range shooter, which just gives some cause for hope. Yeah, that's really good for a point card to have, but... It's good for anybody to have, yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, yeah, I think we just come back to two preseason games and just an unusual

offseason, but even if there weren't an unusual offseason, two preseason games, you know, I don't think there's much for us to draw either way, but I don't feel bad about them at all. So, but, I mean, I see where you're coming from, but I don't feel bad about them at all. So move on to the sort of conundrum between, between, Dillon Wright and Svea McAuluk, Dwayne Casey came out today and said, you know, despite the fact that Svi, of course, offers much better spacing. He's more focused on the defensive potential of Killian Hayes, or Killian Hayes and Dilan Wright is a combo. He mentions Ken Killian Hayes navigate screens and so on and so forth. This is a foible of Casey.

I absolutely cannot stand that he gets overly focused on defense. And it's just a question of, oh, can these guys compete together on defense? Yes, defense is important. No, you do not sacrifice offense for defense. Casey did this at the beginning of the year, or beginning of last season. Reggie Jackson was out after two games. And Kenar was still coming off the bench.

And it's like, okay, it's one thing if you have Reggie Jackson and everybody was hoping that, you know, he had a healthy summer. And, you know, maybe you can get back to the, you know, he'd look decent in the playoffs against the bucks. And it's like maybe this guy who can create some offense off to dribble for the team like he used to be able to do. Of course, that didn't happen. So now you've, because Casey really wanted Rose to be coming off the bench,

you now have Tim Frazier's point guard, and you've got Bruce Brown, Tony Snow, Marquief Morris, and Andre Drummond, and that is a lineup that was absolutely and consummately hopeless on offense. And it's like, sure, they might be able to play deeps in defense, but because they can't score, they're going to be down by 10 points when they come out, you know, when the bench players come in, you know, six or seven minutes in the first quarter, and that's exactly what happened. and it wasn't until, I think, game six that Casey brought in Kinarid in the starting lineup,

Kinnard, who was a decent creator. You know, not great, but decent. It would bring some much needed firepower. But beforehand, he said, you know, I remember who it was. One of the one of the beatwriters said, yeah, Casey said he's considering putting Knaud in the starting lineup, but is concerned about the need for defense. It's like, dude, defense is nice, but if you don't have the offense, you're going to lose. No ifs and or buts, you're going to lose.

and the line of you put out there that has nobody who can create offense is going to be far behind when the bench unit comes in. That's just the reality of the matter. Right is not a good fit with Hayes. He's not a good fit with Griffin. He's not even a good fit with Plumley. He's a guy who primarily operates on the ball. And, you know, he can shoot threes, but his pedigree is pretty undistinguished. He was decent last year on low volume, bad the year before. And with Griffin and Hayes already in the lineup, you just don't want another guy who is going to need to, you know, who is primarily operating on the ball and you don't want a guy who is not necessarily a reliable shooter versus Mikai Lik who is an excellent shooter. Like, excellent, if you just go by the ability to

just shoot three is off the spot up or around screens, then Svi was one of the best shooters in the league last year. You know, he shot very well from three on high volume. So the fact that he's not in the lineup, I don't care if if it produces maybe something in the way of a defensive liability. I mean, not having him there as the way to, A, lose games for whatever Casey wants to talk about trying to win every game. And that's what he does. He tries to win every game. But it's not a good way to win games. And it's just, it's not a good thing for the development of Killian Hayes.

It's not a good thing for anything. So, but that's the case with Casey and his veterans. I mean, we'll talk about this a bit later as well in this episode. Casey loves his veterans. you know, he did not really, you know, for all his reputation as the developer and players, and I don't know, maybe he deserves some credit for that in Toronto. He did not really start developing that young crowd of the bench mob of Van Fleet and Powell and Wright himself and a portal who ended up going away and so on until Maasai,

the Messiah Jerry, the GM of the Raptors, got rid of his veterans. I mean, this is a guy who was playing Jose Calderon over Kyle Lowry because Calderham was the veteran in case he liked him. That was a long time ago, but that happened. So the fact that Wright is on the team means it's an uphill battle for Svi by default. So, yeah, I know I've gotten to a bit of a rant on this, but you got any other thoughts on that, Tommy? And I know we're mostly of a mind here, but.

Yeah, no, I feel like it's inevitable that Casey has to start Sveed. even if it's not his own idea. Somebody on that coaching staff will recognize the need for spacing. And I know that Kate, and you alluded to it, but Casey said he started Dilan to split the ball handling duties with Killian.

And even though I just said that, you know, maybe we got to give Killian like an easier time out there. I think it's better to, it's a better idea to just swap in Svi and let Griffin take the half court creation if necessary. Because in transition and like when the ball is moving and killing can do it. just fine there, but if you just need somebody to get something going for you in the half court,

Griffin can handle that and then right doesn't really seem all that important at that point. And I agree with you. I hate the fact that these decisions are being made because of, you know, years in the league and veteran presence and defense, you know, it's just an archaic way of thinking. And it just needs to change. Yeah, it's also not a situation like the really irritating early season. you know, indecision or just a lagging on Casey's part between Thon and Wood.

Wood was an unknown. Speed was successful last season. You know, and he still has space to grow. But, yeah, you've got three handlers on the court right now. I mean,

Griffin is taking, you know, takes them enough usage, you know, enough ball handling, you know, a little bit more than my liking. I mean,

it's, it is what it is. It's going to happen always on the team. But like, you have cases of, of, excuse me, of killing Hayes,

bringing the ball up the court in transition, or just, just bringing the ball up after a hoop, and he gives it to right. And it's like, are we trying to develop DeLan right here? I mean, like, why is he getting the ball? Like, why not have somebody who can shoot instead and just have your two guys who are handling, who are handling, you know, possession in Griffin and Hayes, which is more than enough?

It's just stupid. I mean, I don't have any other word for it. It's just dumb. And, you know, I'm, and this isn't my case of saying, oh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, You know, look at me. I'm a great NBA coach, obviously. You know, there are things, you know, their aspects of coaching to which I'm not preem and have no experience. But at the same time, we know, this coaches make, you know, coaches have downsides. Any individual coach, almost any individual coach has a downside.

And then they do things that are not actually good. And we certainly saw this with many coaches in the Pistons over the last decade. And it's the case with Casey as well. I have little doubt that Svee will eventually end up in the starting lineup, but it's probably going to be a while. So, all right, move on to Jeremy Grant's, just purely based, and we just purely talk about his performance thus far, how it looks, maybe talk a little bit more, a little bit about free agency as a whole later on.

So, yeah, everybody knows this. He's looked like garbage so far. Any special thoughts on it? Yeah, I think he's just trying to do too much in his own way. I imagine they'd want him to get back to his traditional role, make him more comfortable, get his threes falling again, you know, give him more of the role that Svea is playing, you know, run him some plays,

get him open looks. He came in with a reputation as a guy who can knock down threes, so maybe they wanted to take advantage of that early on and have him attack defenders straight away, but it's just not part of his skill set. You know, he's settling for contested long twos, and that's just, that needs to be cut completely. You know, they brought him here.

I know you're a particularly upset. about this because it's like he's in this weird position where he's probably not part of the future. So why are we giving him all this money and all this run at the expense of these young guys? And I agree with you. The signing doesn't make much sense, especially if, you know, he's just kind of displaying the fact that he's not much more than a 3-and-D guy. And of course, you know, two games. But I think he's just trying to do too much too soon at the very least, you know. Let him get comfortable.

and then maybe run a play or two for him where he attacks the basket. And if anything, if he wants to do more, maybe he just let him be like a driving kick guy. You know, you can't have too many of those. Well, he's not really a threat off the drive as the issue. You mentioned this in the last episode that last year, last season, in which he was pretty effective. He was excellent when finishing offense that was created by others, whether that be cuts to baskets or a spot of three-point shooters. He was really, really quite bad whenever he, on a rare occasion that he tried to create anything for himself. I place very little probability. I would say, rather,

that the probability of him becoming good off the dribble player, I think is pretty low. And it's like you said, why is he even his team in the first place? You know, especially why was he promised, like, you can come here and get more usage when it'll just be sucking usage, not only minutes, but also usage away from younger players. But yeah, it's exactly what I thought it would be in terms of how it looks and how it's gone. Again, only two preseason games, sure, but I don't think this is going to change. I don't think Jeremy Grant has it in him to become an effective creator off the dribble. Maybe he, maybe it can be a case where, you know, he's more able to just attack the basket from the perimeter off a pick or, you know, threw away and that's not entirely open.

and becomes a better finisher, you know, against, you know, when it's contested to a greater degree. And who knows, maybe he can become a decent pull-up three-point shooter. I don't think he's a guy is going to become, who's going to be beating anybody in isolation on an efficient basis. Yeah, his mid-range pull-ups, I mean, again, the proviso, again, preseason, whatever. But there are, I think, two instances in which he had an open three and decided, no, I'm going to create offense off the dribble. And he dribbled in and took it, it took a long two. And it's like the shirt, do you want to have more of a role? This is this is not how it looks.

But I play the odds at maybe like 10% that he becomes an effective creator. Maybe he even become a more effective creator. But the question is like what the what on earth is he doing here? Like are we just trying to help him play his way and do a bigger contract? I mean, like what is he doing here? But that's a different story. Like you said, I think that he will probably fail and settle more, settle back more into a three-nd-d role.

Just, you know, three-nd-d and finish. Well, the D is always going to be there, but shooting threes and attacking open wins, and maybe he'll become like a tertiary creator. But, I mean, this is less just based on two preseason games and based on what he has been able to do in his entire career so far, and how horribly ugly he looks when he puts the ball on the floor. All right, so moving on to somebody I know you've been happy about. Thus far, a lot of Pistons fans have been happy about this.

It's the performance of Sadiq Bay. What have you seen from him? Yeah, he's kind of done what you would hope Grant would have done is just play his game, not do too much and just quietly do his job. He's coming pretty much exactly what was as advertising. He's a great defender, great positional defender, head on a swivel. And he's knocking down his threes, at least in game one, I know that he did. I think he's taken maybe one off-balance shot that maybe I wouldn't have taken.

But other than that, his recognition and his decision-making are great. And then the two things or two or three things I wanted him to add to were like his decision-making on the perimeter in terms of whether he drives inside or he takes a shot, he sharpened that up. You know, there's no pause when he catches the ball and then decides what to do. He's pretty much catch and immediately hoisting it or he's driving inside. And then the other thing that we saw a little bit of was like a flash. of perimeter creation or like, I guess you could call it isolation scoring, he caught the ball. He drove inside and he pulled up for a contested two, and that's not a great shot that you want

anybody taking, but he made it. And it's a flash of something more. We talked about how he doesn't have the greatest burst and that kind of limits him to being a role player. But if he can, you know, break guys down off the dribble, he can potentially be a, guy who drives inside and he has the vision that we've seen to kick it back out. And that's another driving kick guy who can, you know, who demands attention on defense from defenders. And I'm just really, really happy with what we've seen from him. If there was a rookie that I would start, it would be Sadiq, not Killian. And you, like you said, it's not going to be him because it's going to be Grant and Griffin. But wherever you can find minutes for him.

him on the wing, give it to him because he's played really, really well. And I think he, this is one of those things that, like, especially with Grant taking up all the minutes that he's taking up, you know, you'd really like to see more of those go to Sadiq. So I've just been really happy with him. What do you think? I think that he has basically done what, what we, how we described him, we put it this way, how we described him our draft profiles, I think it has turned to be accurate. He's clearly mature beyond his ears. He's not at all tentative. He looks like he's very confident in what he's doing. He, I mean, he looks like an NBA veteran already. Always looking to make the right decision in terms of shot versus pass. He's clearly always

thinking his shot form is a little weird. You know, it's kind of like a set shot, but whatever. If it's not getting blocked, then who cares? I think, just like I've thought since, excuse me, we didn't go over on our draft previews, our draft review, rather. So I think that's, just as I've thought since he was selected, I think he has a high floor. It can be the NBA for a long time.

And I think he'll be a high caliber role player. I mean, I think, I mean, obviously, I'm not pegging that based on two preseason games, just based on his skill set. And on defense, he's, you know, he's not the quickest, but he's certainly very intelligent and disciplined. So, yeah, I hope he gets those minutes.

It just boils down to, again, that Jeremy Grant plays, I don't think Bay will see a ton of minutes power forward. I think he may just end up being a wing in the NBA. But, you know, Jeremy Grant plays at the same position as four, you know, four of Detroit's young players, Svi, Jackson, Seku, that he's primarily a power forward, but you got Griffin there and Bay. So it's like, where do you find these minutes without stripping the way from somebody else? but I've been happy with him. And I don't think he's really a player worthy of hype, but I think he'll be reliable and valuable presence for the Pistons, I think for a long time.

Again, not basing this off of two breezes in games. I felt this way since the day he was driving. All right, next up, Mason Plumley. I don't have much to say about Plumley beyond what you see is what you get. I mean, as I said earlier in this episode, it'll probably improve with time and familiarity, but his ceiling is not high at all. There is not much he has to offer.

He is a guy who can set picks. He is decent on, it's fairly good in the past on the role, not because, you know, when he gets the ball under the basket, he's fairly good at scoring it. He's not really much of a lot of threat, which sucks. Very nice to have a lot of threat. He's not going to score at all unless you get him the ball, really under the basket.

We've seen some hilarious cases in which he's tried to isolate in the first two preseason games, and he's just, it's obviously, and that is not something he's ever going to be able to do. He can't space the floor. You know, he can't pop off the pick. And there is an inherent cost, an inherent opportunity cost to your offense to having a traditional center on the floor.

It's not just, when you look at a player's presence in the floor, it's not only what they can provide. It's what they can't provide that another player might be able to, or just the cost in terms of what can't be done because they are on the court. You can't run a fully modern offense with a traditional center on the court. it hurts that he's not able to shoot. That is unfortunate. And if we're, I know there was some ado about, you know, oh, they just wanted a good role in for, for Killian Hayes. But, you know, eight million, upwards of eight million.

And if you want to split the dead money between that was needed in order to sign grants and plummet, if you want to split them between the two of them, that ends up being 10 million or whatever. You know, who's a great. would have been a great role man for Killian Hayes is Christian Wood, who is a fantastic role man. He is an absolute lob threat, and he can pop. Okay? There's a role man. Instead, you get Miles Plumley and he overpaid Jeremy Grant instead.

So whatever. And on defense, Plumley is nothing special. So that is a great way to describe Mason Plumley as nothing special. And what you've seen from in the preseason is exactly what is going to give for you in the regular season. and that's not much and he's overpaid. And I've seen him refer it to as a glorified assistant coach. Maybe that's what he's there for, but it's still ugly, and I hate the fact that this is the guy you have playing next to Killian Nays.

Also playing next to Blake Griffin. And I don't care about the best that's winning, but it's ugly as hell to put a traditional center next to Blake Griffin. It's just ugly and you don't want it. Yeah. I know you're not as low on Plumley, but I think that's, again, I think primarily just because you think he's around to be that assistant coach, Right, exactly. I mean, in the context that you laid out with, you know, losing Christian Wood and how effective he would be compared to Plumley, yeah, that sucks. But, you know, given that the Pistons aren't trying to win right now, the only real thing that bothers me is that, yeah, it's probably going to hurt Killian's development, not having a guy who he can, I mean, Killian's been putting up lobs and they're not on target, but I feel like a guy like Christian might be able to make some of those work. But Plumley, I mean, he can barely catch it above the rim.

I will say this, though. I think Plumley especially will benefit from more playing time, not more minutes on the court, but more experience with the team because he's an X's and O's guy, and him and Killian, clearly, they just don't know each other yet. There's miles of space between them on screens. Pretty much everybody actually is having trouble working screens on both ends of the floor.

The communication just isn't there yet. The guys just haven't learned their teammates, and that's to be expected with the roster that's bringing back four players from last year. But I don't think Plumley is going to be this bad through the rest of the season. I just think he's not going to be very good. Yeah, I mean, my thing about Christian Wood that I spoke about in previous episodes about worrying about Pistons winning more games than I would like. Did not anticipate the Pistons bringing in Mason Plumley, $25 million.

So I don't know if I said this in the last episode, but it's like, dude, you want a good role man and somebody you can catch lobs. Hey, Damien Jones. He's a horrible defender, but he's super athletic. He's a really good, you know, he's really good at scoring in the paint, and he's, you know, and he's an absolute lob threat. He's a really good role man. Mason Plumley has an absolutely definite ceiling on what he's going to be able to give to you, and familiarity will help, but he's still a guy who can't shoot. He is decent, but not great as a role man. He's a bad defender, which which can play and not bad. he sees a mediocre defender average at best which can play into the lineups case he is willing to put on the floor

and you know just whatever if you're going to pay mason plumley you know eight plus million plus dead cap against it's just like do just pay christian wood like 13 and change which is what he got from the rockets and this is assuming he'd be willing to sign with the business he did come out in social media somewhere and say he was willing to resign with the business you know who knows about the truth of that who knows how we'll perform with with the rockets, but it's like, and you give me any day, give me, you know, even if we say Mason Pullmey like nine and a half, if you're splitting that dead cap proportionally, you know, give me Christian Wood at like $4.5 million more than that.

Like, literally just any day, please, that makes all the sense in the world, just give us Christian Wood at that price. He is better for everything the Pistons are trying to do aside from maybe the character and whatever Plumley provides off the court, which, you know, and then there were my concerns about Christian Wood's at. attitude. But yeah. So moving on to the other two centers in the roster, both traditional centers right now. Why don't you tell us why you absolutely love Julia Ocifor? I know you're joking, but man, I'm so tired of Ocifur. This really ties into exactly what you

were talking about. I mean, it's still puzzling to me that they've signed three traditional centers. And we talked about in the draft preview how maybe Stewart. has something of a jump shot. I don't think we've seen him even take one yet. But Okafore just, he's not what you want in the NBA today. He's slower coming up the court. He's not even that much of a lob threat. I don't know why he's getting all these minutes over Stewart.

I mean, both games, Stuart is coming and he's played in like the last eight minutes. And I just prefer his presence on the court so much more than I do O'Kafors. I mean, Okifor, he's had issues with, like, character in the past. And Casey says everybody gets a clean slate. But I thought the reason that they brought Stewart in here was because, one, he's, like, such a high-energy guy on and off the court. He's very well-liked by his previous team. And on the court, he's just a great presence, Stewart, that is. I don't know why you would choose to play him eight minutes with, like, the third string at the very end.

He was out there hustling, fighting for rebounds with a much taller, much more, you know, a much more athletic in terms of his leaping ability, center in Mitchell Robinson. And I just don't understand why they would choose over. I guess it just goes back to Casey's preference of veterans, but I guess I would just like to see Isaiah Stewart get a lot more minutes. Preferably, I like him to get all the backup. I think that's his role is just like an excellent backup center. I don't think he has the hops or the creation or the spacing that would make him a long-term or like a corner piece or a cornerstone piece for a championship team as a starter.

But as an energy guy, a hustle guy, he's just far and away better than Okafore. So for all the talk that Casey has done about, like, you know, you have to earn your spot with your defense and your effort, Stewart probably exemplifies that more than that. anybody on the team right now just in these limited minutes. Yeah. He's the first guy down the court, and he's really, like, that was one of the big things with him was the fact that he, you know, hustles so hard down the court. He's trying to get those open possessions by beating his man in transition, and he's

held up on that front. So I don't know why O'Kippur is getting those minutes because he honestly just reminds me of Drummond in that way. Oh, well, why he's getting the minutes, it's just super important that we develop too little before, you know. I ain't jokes aside. Yeah, I have no idea. It's like I said, I wasn't a huge fan of the sign to begin with. It was kind of like a whatever sort of thing because he's on a minimum deal, though it's two years, which didn't really make any sense to me. I guess you're gambling on maybe him being good, and then you have him on a cheap contract for another year. But,

like, I thought it was very unlikely to succeed. So here's what O'Kiphor is. He's a good interior score, and that is it. He can't shoot. He can't pass. He's a bad defender. He's a decent role man, but nothing special. And obviously, you know, this is an era in the NBA where that's exactly the kind of player you want. You know, the guy who can't shoot, can't switch, you know, is a terrible defender and provides just nothing on utility on offense. He wants to post up. And that's, God, it's just like what purposes can he possibly serve in this team?

Why is he getting these minutes? He is exactly as advertised, you know, exactly what we thought he would be. going vegan hasn't changed the fact that he is good for nothing but scoring under the basket. You know, you can talk about a vegan jaw. Yay. That's about the, you know, that that's about the most enjoyment I've gotten out of him being on a team. It's just the jokes about that. And I haven't really gotten any enjoyment out of those. It's just mildly funny. Like, why is he getting these minutes over Stewart, who actually has some importance of the future of the team? Jal O'Kefaure is a known quantity. He has a known quantity. It, you know, just enumerated his skills. He is a

good scorer under the basket. Even against the Knicks, he was a defensive disaster. and yet he's not quick, not a good transition player. He's not good at anything but scoring under the basket. That is it. If that's what you wanted, keep Tony Bradley. If that's what you're going, I mean, that was one of his things at Washington. He was such a good post player.

And that's even though it's not like modern offense in the NBA, why would you play an Okafore if what you want is interior scoring? Yeah. It just makes no sense to me. Yeah, it's just one of those things where, of course, you know, there's always to provide that you don't know exactly what's going on behind the scenes. But, yeah, Okifor, you know, you're not going to develop the guy. He has no real utility of the business in present or in future.

Meanwhile, you have Stewart. Yeah, like you said, I mean, we've seen very little from him because Okifor is getting those minutes. Okafor who provides nothing of real benefits at all. You know, it's not good for the present or the future. He's not good for the other young guys in the court with him. So, yeah, why not give those minutes to Stewart? Yeah, clearly a very high effort guy. I'd like to see him take some threes.

Yeah, he's got some bounce. He's not the most vertically explosive, which does remove him as a lot of threat, but neither is O'Khafore. Yeah, it's just irritating. It's just one of these super, super annoying Casey foibles. And maybe it's just two games through preseason. Now O'Cafour is not going to get the minutes in the next two games.

Maybe Stewart gets that chance. You know, and that's possible, and maybe we just sound stupid, you know, on Sunday when preseason is over, and it's been Stewart these last two games. but I'll take it. I'm happy with that. Yeah, I'll be disappointed in vocaboard against any significant minutes during the season

because, yeah, he's providing, say for the third time, nothing in the present. And he's not going to be a strongly doubt, strongly, strongly, strongly doubt that it will develop into anything further in the future. And in retrospect, it's kind of hilarious to look back and see that there was ever any question between him and Carl Anthony Towns as to who should go first overall. So, yeah, that's where we are. I just want to add one.

I mean, Stuart, the one thing, though, I mean, he played in a very different system in Washington. There were, I mean, we played zone against the Knicks on purpose, but there were times where he was just hanging out in the paint. I think he was in there for, like, a solid six seconds, not guarding anybody. I don't think he got called for it, but he seems like he just needs to learn the NBA system a little bit more. I just wish they'd give him the minutes to do so.

Yeah. I just want to see more, I guess. There is no opportunity cost for giving him those minutes. Right. like what there's no cost to doing that it's not like you are you're passing on giving minutes to somebody else who might benefit from them more for the pistons might benefit from more if you're giving them those minutes and yeah it's like it's like we're talking about jul ill before here like come on so yeah and the center rotation overall like you said it's just ugly in general you got three traditional centers how did this happen like hopefully stewer can shoot you got to give minutes to shoot he's not been given that role in the offense in his limited minutes he's just been a role guy and energy guy and you'd like to see if you can do that. But like, how in this day and age do you end up with three traditional centers? How?

Like, it's just another issue, just another thing with Weaver's off season and I'll rant about that a bit later. But yeah, then we come down to the rotations and Casey has come out and media availability and said, don't read too much into the preseason rotations. It's like, it's just what you know is going to happen with Casey is that the minutes are the veterans to lose. And that includes Wayne Ellington, for example. They're not going to get Wayne Ellington. Unless he's terrible, he's going to get minutes because he's playing under Dwayne Casey. And Dilan Wright is going to get probably priority on minutes because he's playing for Dwayne Casey.

And giving Dwayne Casey this many veterans is not a good idea. Because, yeah, I mean, the rotation will eventually smooth out in the way of, in the way of, you know, the foibles will take Casey some time to get through those, as I mentioned earlier in the episode. but and yeah he's for what very very little it's worth he's a lot better than stand man gunty in that respect because bang gundy would never make those changes but uh but it'll take some time and and there's also the fact that's young guy versus veteran i mean sure you got to earn your minutes but if the if the veteran ahead of you was playing adequately well then you might not ever get those minutes so that's just that's just a concern and uh i think that pretty

season is a bit of a preview. But also just Casey, their players, Casey is going to give minutes to and start no matter what. Yeah, I mean, I know we're of like-minded about this, but you had anything to add about that? Yeah, I mean, you kind of mentioned it earlier. It's just things that we don't get to see behind the scenes. Casey has to manage some egos and I don't know. I guess we'd maybe do things differently, but that's something that there's a lot more factors for him. So that's all.

all, I guess, I would think of. There are guys that we'd like to see who we think that, we think they deserve the minutes based on their play, but I guess there are a lot more factors at hand, and we just have to, I try to understand them, and that's how I've kind of like dealt with, not dealt with, but rationalize the Plumlee signing at the number that it is, but there are still some question marks or head scratchers like the grant contract, but. Honor. Yeah. And one other roster consideration we can talk about is, of course, you know, the most important thing that has happened in the past two weeks, which is the Weangelo Ball is no longer on the roster.

And I know you and I, I'm not meaning to ride anybody here. It's just, I want to give some additional backgrounds. I talked about this last episode. Weangelo Ball is not an NBA caliber player. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Maybe it will develop into one. This guy was a three-star recruit coming. out of high school. There's not a top two hundred recruit. He played one preseason game at UCLA

before the season got cut short by shoplifting and almost ending up in a Chinese prison. And then the entirety of his further experience was a not really standout performance in a week league with the Wethuanian basketball league. And then some time in a league that his father created in which he, of course, he dominated, because there's a, no good talent there. So why was Leangelo Ball brought in at all? Your guess is good at his mind. What was it publicity? I don't really think so. Was it, because, okay, we'll just toss him to G League.

Maybe he has something to offer? Sure. Was it a travesty didn't get minutes in the preseason? No, because he's probably the worst player on the roster. You know, there was no promise that he was going to get minutes. He came in, and it was a great opportunity for him that he even got to be on a roster and practice with the Pistons at all. So I don't think any other NBA team would have offered him that.

So he came out ahead in this situation. He did not get screwed over. He came out of head. Anyway, as I had mentioned earlier in the episode, it had been planning on doing a little bit of Bordaun ranting about the Pistons free agency and Jeremy Grant and his contract. But we're at about 50 minutes into the episode right now. It seems like a pretty good place to stop,

so we'll save that for a later date. As always, want to thank you all for listening. We'll see you next time.