Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 30: Coaching? What Coaching?

Episode Date: January 21, 2021

This episode, recorded immediately after the loss against Atlanta, discusses the ways in which Dwane Casey's in-game mismanagement is driving us insane. Also a bit about Isaiah Stewart.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Driving to the Basket here tonight with Dante once more. Thank you, Dante, for joining us again. Thanks for having. We are, yeah, absolutely, man. It's always a pleasure. We are recording this shortly after the Pistons lost to the Hawks. And right now, really just should establish this for what we're likely to be talking about in this episode. You have two pretty angry Pistons fans right now and the object of that. Yeah, the object of that anger is the Pistons head coach, Dwayne Casey.

So, yeah, just to be forewarned, I mean, if, you know, you already feel like you know how we feel about Dwayne Casey or, you know, whatever. You know, that's what this is going to be about. So, yeah, so we're about 15 minutes removed from the Pistons blowing a giant lead and then the late stage is the fourth quarter and then losing it overtime with a lineup that we're removed. was, you know, in which the minutes were overwhelmingly played by veterans again. And, yeah, we're just going to talk about how utterly and incredibly pointless that is and how unpleasant it is swatched business this season. So, yeah, Dante, why don't you take it away? Well, we were talking briefly before the podcast, and I would say, yeah, my sentiment hasn't changed in that short amount of time. It's just, it's one thing to lose. And we've argued on here before that

that's going to be productive for the long-term outlook of this team. So losing is fine. Losing is not the issue. The issue is losing in a way where your fan base is forced to watch something that's completely and utterly pointless. So, for example, watching this lead tonight evaporate, I'm not upset that we lost. I'm upset that the veterans played almost all of the minutes, Dumboya, Bay. to an extent you could say Sfima Kai Luke as well.

There was a significant limit on their minutes, whereas the veterans were allowed to stay out there, let the lead go. And so it's not that we got a loss, it's that we got an unproductive loss. Because I can't fathom a single reason why you would want to field the lineups that Dwayne Casey continues to field and expect that to be something that's beneficial to the long-term outlook of this team.

I know we've touched on it time and time and time again, but the more games that I'm watching this season, and I'm sure you share the sentiment as well, the more it's become painfully obvious that Dwayne Casey is not the coach for this type of team and what we're attempting to do. So I'm not happy to say the least. I already know your thoughts, but I don't know if you want to expand upon that.

Yeah, of course. I'll be more than happy to expand upon that. So basically I completely agree what's going on is absolutely and utterly and completely pointless. So I'm sure there are people who have known me and my thoughts about the Pistons for a long time. You know, which of my thoughts on the Pistons have vacillated. Of course, there's often just been a lot more negative, a lot more negatives than positives. But it was three seasons ago, four seasons ago at this point, 2016, 2017, basically when the Pistons were, they started out with Roger Jackson. This was the season after they made the playoffs for the first time and long while since 2009.

And Reggie Jackson ended up missing time to start the season. The Pistons started off a little bit slow, but by the time he was coming back, he was on a roll. They had a decent offense. They won the best defenses. And of course, Stan Van Gundy, instead of saying, oh, we're going to keep Roger Jackson, we're just going to keep some elements of this and just to ease Jackson into it, just brought him back in, even when it was just not apparent at all that he was ready and said, oh, we're just going to go back to doing exactly what we did last season.

Jackson was one of arguably the worst big minute player in the entire league. Van Gundy just did the same shit over, part of the language, over and over and over and over again. And the Pistons blew the entire season because Van Gundy was just doing the wrong thing in every, basically every conceivable respect. It didn't help the drummond checked out halfway through the season, or that Marcus Morris became a chucker, or that Casey v.mue became a chucker. But the point is you had a coach who did absolutely, just was doing the absolute wrong thing again and again and again and again, as Stan Van Gundy was want to do, as much as people rightly give him a lot of flack for how poorly he did.

As the general manager of the Pistons, I think he may have been even worse as a coach. So that season I spent most of the time I was just watching the games and feeling completely our rates. I would prefer that season to this one because at least at that point what the Pistons were doing had a purpose. They were trying to win. They were doing it in a super melodroid way. Their players were for the most part, not conducting themselves properly. the coach was an absolute menace. But, you know, this team said, okay, we're trying to when we want to make the playoffs.

This is what we're doing. You know, maybe that they were doing it completely incompetently, which I firmly believe was it, you know, firmly believed at the time was the case. And certainly in retrospect, seems to, you know, that seemed to be exactly true. Seems to be exactly true. But they had a point. And this season, what is it? Okay, it's supposed to be a rebuild.

All right, what are you doing to rebuild? You try to develop young players. And, you know, you're, even if you're not deluxe, you're, even if you're not, deliberately trying to lose, like the Mavericks, for example, who in 2017-2018, Rick Carlisle, very good coach. I remember he was the coach for the Pistons for a little while, and they made their first Eastern Conference finals back in 2003, and he was replaced by Larry Brown. Anyway, I digress.

So he would just take, he would put his bench warmers in for the fourth quarter of close games, and they'd lose. And Mark Cuban came out and said, ha, ha, ha, ha, we're trying to lose and got fined. Of course, he doesn't care. But, you know, draft position is important. All right. So what do we have right now? Okay, we should be looking at draft position, should be looking at development.

You know, you give your player your own player's minutes. You allow them to learn through those minutes, to learn through their mistakes, and develop that way. What do we have instead? Okay. We have a coach who is playing these veterans big minutes, marginalizing development by playing these veterans big minutes in search of wins with a team that can't win and a team that shouldn't want to win

because it compromises draft position. I'm not suggesting they lose every game, but they should not be trying to win. and he's doing a terrible job of it. There is absolutely no point to what the Pistons are doing right now. They are not doing, it makes absolutely no sense. And Dwayne Casey is terrible at everything. You know, he's just, you know, he's marginalized in development.

And he's doing a bad job in trying to win. Yeah, you want to talk about the veterans getting minutes tonight? I know I'm ranting here. Blake Griffin and Wayne Elling team played a combined 72 minutes. The five players, the five young players in the Pistons, which have his future with his team. Jackson, Bay, Stewart, Svi, and Saku played a combined 68 minutes. Griffin and Ellington played more minutes than the team's youth combined.

Ridiculous. Yeah. It's ridiculous. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's not only unpleasant to watch. It is completely pointless. Like, there's nothing. Yeah.

And I mean, when you have Casey with this system of completely selective accountability, it's like, oh, well, you know, you've got to go out and earn your minutes and play hard and compete on defense. And, oh, Blake Griffin, you're one of the worst big minute players in the league. and you, you know, it's arguable if you even try on defense, but you certainly can't play defense. For sure. But we got to force things and then structure things

and take away minutes from the young players. You know, even if it's not what it takes and make sure you get your 32 to 36 minutes a night. And then you turn on to the young players, you've got to earn your minutes, you know, compete hard, compete hard on defense, play well. Cadiq play, you know, is a very promising first 12 games, and then suddenly he's not playing anymore.

It's completely arbitrary. And if one rookie is getting, you know, And these rookies are basically have to steal minutes from each other while Casey instead hands them to decrepit veterans who have no future with this team because he wants to win games

that just meaningless games. Yep, yep. No, I love what you said about was it selective accountability? Was that the term you used? It certainly is. Like I, look, I've mentioned before, like I've played sports all my life as well.

And there certainly is something to, when you go out on the field or court or ice or whatever it may be, There needs to be a sense that you've earned your minutes, so to speak, so that you're showing out in practice, you're trying your best, you're doing the right things when you're out there. So to that extent, I understand the philosophy of you don't just want to start five rookies, play them 40 minutes a night each, lose every game by 100.

I get it. But for someone like Dwayne Casey to come out and repeatedly talk about how it's a process and you need to earn what you're given if you're to play for the Detroit Pistons, it's applied completely inconsistently. So Killian Hayes, for example, I know that you and I and Tommy as well, we don't mind that he struggled early because, you know, he's a rookie point guard coming from overseas, shortened offseason, that's going to happen.

But there's absolutely no case to be made, given what we've seen in the games, that he earned his minutes because he was maybe the worst player I've ever seen and he earned the start every single game that he was available, whereas someone like Sadiq Bey outperformed him by every conceivable metric, whether you're talking about the I-test or you're talking about statistically. And he's reduced to now, basically closing in on a third of the way through the season, spot minutes off the bench. He's played 22 minutes over the course of the last three games.

And there you go. And you could argue, oh, he's hit a bit of a cold streak, but who doesn't hit a cold streak? Dillon Wright is on a permanent cold streak, and he continues to play. Blake Griffin, I have his jersey hanging up in my room. I love him to death. I respect him as a competitor, as a player, as a student of the game, I think he's, especially as an ambassador for Detroit, too.

I think Blake Griffin is a phenomenal person. But if you're going to go, be Dwayne Casey, come out and say, Blake Griffin is earning his minutes, then we're not watching the same game. And quite frankly, we're not even living on the same planet. So if you're going to have a hardline philosophy like Dwayne Casey clearly has about who gets to play and who doesn't, it should at the very least be applied somewhat fairly and somewhat consistently. But he's shown time and time and time again that he makes up his mind clearly before the season has started on, this is what I like, these are the lineups I like, this is who's going to play, this is who's not going to play.

And we see the results. And the results are what we get tonight. So I'm beyond frustrated. And I think that the removal of Dwayne Casey as the head coach would probably alleviate a lot of this team's issues. Because like we continue to say, losing is one thing, losing in the manner that we saw tonight as a complete other thing. Yeah. And I think a lot of us hope that, you know, okay, after game two against the Cavaliers where you did this exact same thing. Where the only difference was we had two overtimes in which to play only his bets.

Yep. Just more time to do it. Yeah, more time to be incompetent. Yeah, exactly. So we thought that, that, okay, like the next game, Griffin is out for load management, Roses out for, I don't know, some very minor injury. It's like, okay, maybe Troy Weaver came down in it, or maybe something's going to change. And it's like, okay, maybe it changed for a little bit.

But the last three games, we've seen all vet lineups. We've seen the veterans play more than 70% of the minutes. We've seen the veterans take well over 70% of the scoring chances. Now, what I always say about Killing Hayes, it's like, okay, you draft the guy number seven, you want to be playing Rose off the bench, you have a right, sure. but okay, you give him, Hayes only played six games. He didn't play big minutes. And when he was starting, he was the fifth most important starter on the floor.

I mean, like Griffin would even ignore him at the three-point line. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. So, you know, another thing, yeah, when it comes to Casey coming out and saying, well, as long as Blake can play is going to get minutes. Okay, fine. Just that statement in and of itself in a vacuum, fine, makes sense, okay? You've got Blake, he's a big name veteran. You know, he's a big guy in the team.

He's probably the leader of the team. Whatever, give him minutes. Fine. Giving him minutes makes sense. What does not make sense is force-feeding him minutes, giving him minutes more minutes than really. Only Jeremy Grant gets more minutes, and Grant deserves them unequivocally.

Unequivocally. Yeah. So it's not just giving him minutes. It's giving Griffin a ton of minutes, a big role. And he's on the floor in every key situation. That is different from just giving him minutes. And he's been awful. He has been one of the worst big minute players in the entire NBA.

So, and he's almost invariably well-worded. than his very poor raw stats would he indicates. So, yeah, so just back to what it comes, you know, where it goes with accountability. It's not only does Casey not practice what he preaches with us. Not only is he not consistent with that, but a player can have a good game and then be rewarded with a virtual DMP for no reason.

It's completely arbitrary. All right, so Svee against Milwaukee, 18 points. He only got 18 minutes for some reason. He did really well, and then Casey decided I'm just not going to play him for the rest the game. And then he didn't get into garbage time in the following game so that Casey could play Wayne Ellington big minutes instead. Wayne Ellington, who has no future with this team.

I'm not sure if Casey noticed, but, you know, this season is, it's like he's going to play Wayne Ellington because he wants to win. I'm not sure he noticed the development is key. Wayne Ellington has no future with his team. This team is not going anywhere in the win column. And frankly, it should not be trying to go anywhere in the wind column. So, but yeah, it's like 18 points and 18 minutes, led the team in scoring, and then didn't get to play until garbage time in the following game.

It is completely arbitrary. It's like there is no real reward system. Like Seku, it came out, this is one of the beatwriters, I believe this was Sancoe who said this, is that Seku isn't not getting minutes because he's not trying hard or because he has per work ethic. He's not getting minutes because the pistons are trying to win, and Dwayne Casey feels there are better options, which is a completely insane. It's like, I'm not calling what Sancova said insane.

I'm saying that is an insane philosophy. Well, certainly it is. Did you happen to see Steve Kerr's quote, who's either last night or early this morning? Yeah, it's about the importance of getting time for the younger players or giving it a shot, I believe. I think what he said was, you know, if my life was on the line based on needing to win a game, and I had to win this game at all cost, this is probably not the starting lineup that I would roll out. But I do recognize that the long-term future of this team centers around these players. And so it's important for me to give them minutes and to allow them to build chemistry within each other.

So that to me delineates someone like Steve Kerr, who's a multiple-time champion and widely regarded as one of the best coaches in the league, maybe of all time, versus someone like Dwayne Casey who wins coach of the year and then gets fired. It's, it's, Dwayne Casey's incredibly short-sighted. And that quote by Kerr, someone who you know knows how to coach a basketball team just highlights the inaptitude. Yeah, it's a team that can win. That team can win too. Absolutely. Absolutely. Ken, but Kerr realizes, hey, are we going to win it all this year? Probably not. And is James Wiseman's

development more important than whatever veteran big we have coming off the bench who might provide a marginal increase in our win percentage, our win probability percentage? You know, so it's just, that really highlights the difference between why the Warriors are the Warriors and why the Pistons have been the Pistons and continue to be the Pistons, basically ever since the going to work team was done. It's this cycle. of hideous ineptitude where the team can't quite decide what direction it wants to go. And Dwayne Casey right now is illustrating that ineptitude to the highest degree. Quite frankly, I'm getting sick of it and I'm going to continue to watch because,

like you said, you want to stay informed for the podcast just because you love basketball and we love the team. But when I've spent the past two and a half hours watching what I've watched, it doesn't leave me with a good taste in my mouth, quite frankly. It makes me feel like what I want as a fan is fundamental. disconnected from what the head coach is trying to do. And what Troy Weaver has sold, which is, even though he hasn't come right out and said rebuild, he's made it very clear through his actions that the team that we had last year

was not the team that was going to do anything. He basically completely blew it up to the best of his abilities. And Casey is not holding up his end of the bargain. So I'm beyond frustrated right now. And I don't see a solution that doesn't involve firing Dwayne Casey. And honestly, I can't imagine that Troy Weaver has in his mind that his championship winning head coach is going to be Casey. But I suppose that remains to be seen as well. I've seen crazier things from this team.

Oh, yeah. That's where I'm not. Yeah, the Pistons have not had a capable head coach since Flip Saunders. That was 2000. Wait, was he still around in 2009? Or was that? Or was Curry already the coach? Whatever the case, it's been well over a decade.

The Pistons have had a succession of mediocre and competent head coaches. You know, let's talk about Weaver a little bit. a little bit later in the episode because I honestly think he has more culpability in this. But when it comes to Dwayne Casey, all right. So Dwayne Casey, I remember back in 2015, watched the playoffs, watched the Raptors completely collapsed. I believe they were the third seed, completely collapsed in the first round, get swept by the by the Wizards.

Because Dwayne Casey's offense more or less revolved around isolations by Derozen and Lowry, and it wasn't working, and his offense wasn't working. characteristically for Dwayne Casey, he changed nothing. He just did the same thing over and over again. And I remember thinking they have got to get this guy out of here. Like, you know, he's a good, you know, he's a good floor raiser. He's helped this team get back from a completely terrible position and gets to the point. But they can make the playoffs.

This is as far as he is going to take the team. This is not a coach who is going to win you a championship. He does not have that ceiling. And ultimately, they kept him. I mean, the Raptors went on to make some noise in the playoffs, but but ultimately just collapsed again. again and the repeated theme was that Casey would fall back on on his familiar, which was Lavery Isolations, DeRosen Isolations, and just doing things in his very simplistic way on

offense and making no adjustments on either side of the floor. So, you know, it comes to 2016. Okay, you know, they win a, geez, what was it in 2016? They, I believe they beat the, I would have to look it up. Basically, all the playoff series that the Raptors won in 2016, 2017, and 2018 were close series against not very good teams. Like they played a seven-game series against what I believe, with the 43 win Pacers in 2016. They played a seven-game series that year against the not-very-good Miami Heat.

Yep. Yeah, the next year, I believe it was, and then they got, you know, They managed to win two games against the Cavaliers, but it got destroyed in the first two games, and wrecked in the next in games five and six. They played a relatively close series against the Bucks. Three of whose top players in minutes were Thonmaker, Tony Snell, and goodness, I don't remember, another super unremarkable player, and it's just like, and then they got annihilated by the Cavs. And in the following season, again, some unimpressive wins, annihilated by the Cavs.

And then Casey finally got fired, but as we've said before, I mean, Casey, basically, Messiah was here he took steps to protect Casey from himself in that final season. He got rid of these veterans whom Casey loved because Casey, if we've seen it, he's going to fall back on his familiar and as familiar as his veterans. And so the young players got to come in and get their time. And he also said, well, your offense sucks for, you know, this is all of it said this by what he did. Your offense sucks and you just can't do it. So we're going to give that this is going to be a new offense and I'm not going to let you plan it. So that went to Nick Nouris, who did clearly, you know, became very clear the next season that he was the, you know, the true power behind the throne, so to speak, as far as Casey winning coach of the year and the Raptors having their best season.

The offense went from just complete, rope garbage that, that, that, that, that, kind of road garbage that Casey just did over and over again. That would persistently collapse against good teams and just didn't have the dynamism to survive contact with a really good defense, especially because Casey couldn't make adjustments, to a modern, fast-paced, offense based on efficient shots, selection, ball movements, uh, in faster pace. And, and the Raptors scored about five more points per game than they had in the previous season. And then Casey fell back in his typical bullshit. Sorry, I keep swearing.

He fell back in his typical, typical garbage in the playoffs. And, uh, and he got fired. And what's often brought up as an example is the third quarter, uh, I believe this was game two against the Cavs in which Kevin Lowe posted up, uh, successfully posted up C.J. Miles, uh, who, whom Dwayne Casey had assigned, who was playing a power forward against Kevin Lowe for no reason. Boston about four times of the course of three minutes successful

in case he did nothing. That's just typifies between Casey. So I didn't want him as coach in the first place. I was like, this is a mediocre coach. His flaws are known. They become more and more pronounced as the league has gravitated more toward analytics and spacing. And it's more important than ever to have a coach who's very good on offense because offense is key.

and the Pistons just, you know, please go with a lesser known talent who has a higher ceiling. But of course, it was all about making the playoffs. So they went between Casey to my chagrin. And I think in many ways, he is just, I mean, in some ways, he's much better than Stan Van Gundy. In other ways, he shares a lot of the same issues. So. No, I would certainly agree. I don't know if this would be a good pivot point to turn to Troy Weaver.

what Weaver's role has been in this debacle. But I can give my opinion first, and if you want to kind of expand upon it, feel free. But basically, if we were having a contest of who I blame more for what I'm seeing, I'm a lot lower on Dwayne Casey than I am on Troy Weaver. I can tell you that. So Troy Weaver coming from OKC, right, who I believe is a class organization.

You know, they've ridden the ups and downs, they played meaningful basketball laid into the playoffs. almost won a championship. And I believe, you might not, but I certainly believe that Troy Weaver probably knows what it takes to build a winner. And I like the aggressiveness in the draft. I like the aggressiveness in free agency, not necessarily that I agree with every move.

But, you know, his quote about, I'm going to have my clip fully unloaded, like he's diving right in. I respect that. I think far too many general managers and upper level executives in the world of competitive sports are very, very passive. for fear of losing their jobs. And I respect Troy Weaver for going out and shaking things up and making moves.

That being said, one critical failure of his that I think is being thrown under a microscope, especially on a night like tonight, would be you have to know who your coach is. And so Troy Weaver's ultimate plan may not have been for the Wayne Ellington's and the Dallon rights of the world to play 40 minutes a night. but unfortunately that's the head coach you have of your team your head coach is like you said he's going to fall back on his familiar and his familiar is the people who are the players who he believes will lead to the best chance of winning on any given night um it's funny because i don't even think the players that kC plays gives him the best chance to win in every situation but he certainly does

and he always thinks the veterans are the key um so that's on troy weaver to know hey uh unfortunate as it may be if i sign this guy if i give this guy a spot on our roster, Dwayne is going to play him over the players that we've sunk in significantly more resources into and the players who will play a significantly larger role in the future of this team. So you got to know, for example, that Dilan Wright and Wayne Ellington are probably going to take minutes away from Sadiq Bay. And because of the way Casey likes to run his offense is when you do make a good signing, and in my opinion, Jeremy Grant was, I've gotten higher and higher on him as the games have gone on. And I think most improved player is between him and Wood. Like,

that's, he's kind of running away with it a bit. I would even argue that he's beginning to creep into all-star third team, second team, all pro levels of play right now. He's been absolutely incredible. But because of how Dwayne Casey runs his offense, you'll see 12 points on not a single miss shot for Jeremy Grant in the first quarter. And then he doesn't, you know, take another field goal until halfway through the third. Like, it's just, it's mind-boggling. So it's a combination of things where Troy Weaver has to know that the players he's putting on this team, whether it's by a trade, free agency, whatever the case may be, that's going to affect who plays and when they play, what role in the offense and slash or defense they get. Because Dwayne Casey can't be trusted to utilize these pieces properly. So that's where I would be at.

I think I still want to give Troy Weaver the benefit of the doubt, but I do have serious qualms with him signing. the Dillon writes, the Wayne Ellington's, the Mason Plumlins, who are really taking away from the playing time and the general opportunity of the youth on this team. Yeah, when it comes to what's the rights in Ellington, they don't take minutes directly from Bay, but they basically don't know what I mean. Yeah, they take them from Jackson.

Yeah, they take them from Jackson and Svee. And then they have to, and if they're getting minutes, they have to get them at Small Forward, and Bay loses his minutes. Right. Yeah, so basically, yeah, yeah, I know what you meant. I just thought I'd say.

In the generality, whether it's Josh Jackson, Svema Kaila, because of the way you've got to shuffle the lineups, the end result is that these guys aren't playing, and when they do play, they're not getting the offensive opportunity that they should be getting. No, yeah, a lot of the time, I mean, you see Casey's rotation, which doesn't change, I mean, a couple years ago, for example, back when I was just screaming for Luke Kinnard to get minutes

and to be played correctly, like give him shots, you know, don't have time, Spotting up the three-point line, have him set screens for Luke Kinnard. You know, Knaard thrives on volume, get him involved, use him properly. And it's like, you know what, I know that Luke Kinnard, I know that Ish Smith is going to be the first guy on. He's going to check in at X, you know, I think it was like probably six minutes in. You know that Kinnard's going to come in eight minutes into the game. Dwayne Kese, he just does this.

He just does this. So basically what you see in his rotations, Derek Rose will come in with about 430-ish left in the first quarter. Isaiah Stewart may come in, then he might come in a minute later. Whatever the case, you ultimately will likely end up with four young guys on the four. Unfortunately, they're playing with Derek Rose, who can't play as part of an offense, and he's going to look for his shot early in a shot clock. Yeah, he's an isolation player, maybe the most isolation-heavy player that I've seen for the Pistons in the last few years for sure.

No doubt. It's isolations and pick and rolls, and he goes for his own shot. And that's not good for your young player's development, guys who want to- No, it certainly isn't. Yeah, you want to grow up in a modern office. offense, a lot of the time they're just standing around. I mean, how's that good for their developments? I mean, so, but when it comes to Weaver, yeah, so I'm a lot of less inclined to give him the benefit for the doubts. I have been concerned that he was a guy who's just an example

to Peter Principal, who was very, who was by all accounts quite capable in his role in Oklahoma City in which I think he was, I don't know for sure. It seems like he was certainly very much a draft-focused guy. Maybe he was involved in the state- probably, like maybe a director, one of the higher-offs in college scouting for sure. Yeah, well, yeah, so whatever the case, you know, was he a guy who was just good at certain things and performed at his best with a capable general manager, Sam Presti, above him? And has he come in and basically shown that he's not the greatest for the job? I still don't really love what he did in free agency.

Like I said in the last episode, Jeremy Grant has been playing great, but what value does he really have to a piss and seem that's not trying to win? And where, you know, say what you will, he is positioned. because Blake Griffin is there to block some minutes for the younger players. He took away cap space. He might win the Pistons and games. Goodness forbid they get a really good young player next to, not go to goodness for bet that, but the goodness forbid a situation in which, sure, you get a really good player in the draft. That's great, of course.

Maybe Hayes plays better also plays well next season also. That's great, of course. But what is the situation then if Jeremy Grant is playing well, and suddenly these games, the Pistons have been losing by small margins, some of them become wins, and the Pistons win 35 games. Then Jeremy Grant was a disaster. Yeah, no, no, for sure, for sure. So there's that, there are some other things I would like to do in the off season.

Well, in the first place, like just blowing all the caps base was just weird. And he made it very clear this is, you know, a compete while rebuilding. That's the directive. If he had told Casey, I want to make sure, I want you to prioritize developments, and that's a priority. I got to think the case would be doing that. I think that Troy Weaver was the progenitor of that policy. And that he also, as you said, deserve some, some blames. for giving Casey this many veterans because we know through our case his entire tenure if he

has these veterans he will pray these veterans i mean it's just what's going to happen wayne ellington came back to detroit because uh because he knew he would play yeah he knew he yeah as it was put by uh i believe it was james edwards is that it's that ellington wanted to come back because he really appreciated the opportunity he got from joining cases two seasons ago in 2018 2019 and uh goodness is he getting that opportunity oh my god he had more shots than grant at one point he had more shots than grant for like a significant part of the game and I just couldn't wrap my I go ahead

Casey doesn't Casey doesn't coach that closely he just he doesn't he just he doesn't he doesn't he doesn't coach he doesn't coach in the way that gets the most out of his players and I don't you know reiterate neither one of us cares about the loss no absolutely no you're starting

you know it's like you're starting five veterans I've been racking my brain for an equivalent of example of a team in the first season of the rebuild of a rebuild that is starting at five veterans. It makes no sense. So, yeah, so in any event, yeah, so that's where I'm on Weaver.

I think he might have some culpability in it. Oh, no, he might. Well, look at the last Hawks game we played. The mood surrounding that game, even though the result is the same, we lost both of those games, but the mood surrounding the last Hawks game where you got a good showing from all of your young players and you lost in a highly competitive manner. nobody's, nobody's upset about that. Whatever social media you're checking, whether it's this podcast, just talking to your friends, whatever, nobody's upset about the fact they lost and nobody's upset about how they lost.

But that's a complete 180 from what we saw tonight. And so even though the result is the same and the result is fine, it's okay that we lost, I think yours and eyes problem is how we got there. Yeah, it was a pointless loss. It was a loss that had no positives of any kind besides the fact that it was a loss. It's like, yeah, you could have lost this game while giving adequate opportunity to the young players. Instead, they got minimal opportunity. Yep. They're just minimal opportunity.

And on top of that with Casey, again, yeah, he's just not a good offensive coach. The guy is not a good offensive coach. He does not run a good offense. He does not run a specific offense. It's just possessions get lost. Stupid stuff happens. He falls back on isolations constantly. Like, in like that last, that last play of, uh,

And this is just, you know, basically just me complaining about how bad Dwayne Casey is, again, at everything, including when he's trying to win. It's like, you've got the last possession. You are, the game is tied. And what do you do? You have Jeremy Grant's on the floor. He's your best score by far. Let's not even get him involved. Why bother?

You know, the play is clearly centered around Blake Griffin trying to post up. That failed. So Rose goes on in isolation. Brilliant. Yeah. Absolutely. Brilliant. transcendent coaching right there.

Your best player is on the floor and you relegate him to standing in the corner, which quite frankly, I don't know if you noticed. Jeremy Grant doesn't seem to have a lot of plays ran for him, which I think is very, very odd considering the level at which he's playing. So I know I'd left a comment earlier.

I mentioned it. I saw some people talking about it on Twitter too. When you start the game like five for five, you've got 12 points, you're looking absolutely outstanding. And then you proceed to not have a field goal attempt until like the third quarter. That's, that's coaching. You can say what you want about Jeremy Grant's assertiveness, but I think you need to know

your players. You need to know that Jeremy Grant is burning hot right now, and you should be getting him the ball at all costs. But instead, you know, he's forced to get the ball off, these dribble handoffs and stand in the corner, and we can watch Blake Griffin post up from the three-point line or Derek Rose kind of do the jerky, whatever, kind of get into the lane and throw up a floater. and whether they go in or they don't, it's just frustrating to see a player who's blossoming

while simultaneously being stifled, so he's not blossoming quite as much as he could be. And I know we just spoke about what is the long-term value of Grant given that the team isn't actively trying to win. But I will disagree a little bit because I think there's value in, you know, if Jeremy Grant keeps up this pace, he'll probably be third team all NBA. I know that's extrapolating out of it,

but that's the level he's playing out. Well, I don't know. That's the level he's playing at. right now on both sides of the floor. I'm not sure. I mean, I think you would have trouble getting an all-MBA selection for one of the worst teams in the league. I think it's also just worth noting that there are a lot of good players at the wing

position. No, that's fair. That's fair. All-Star, maybe. What do you think about All-Star? There's not going to be an all-star game, so. Don't they still get the collections, though? I feel like they still put up in the first.

Either way, I guess the general sentiment was that he's playing at a very, very, very high level. That was my sentiment. Now, I'm not sure what accolades. that's going to bring. Certainly in consideration for most improved, I don't think there's much debate there. But I think there's value in having a player that good. And I do think that he, well, clearly he's not adding to the win total because we've only won, what, two, three games at this point, even when he is playing at that level. Four games. Okay, so we're at four out of 15. So he's not

raising, he's not raising the win total that much. And I do like to see him succeed. He's a lot of fun to watch and to see him relegated to the role on offense that he's been given, I just think someone who's showing that much scoring aptitude should be given a lot more of a quality look in this offense. But there really isn't this offense because Dwayne Casey doesn't really run an offense. It's just kind of, hey, give it to the vets, see what happens. Blake, Derek, you guys choose where we go from here. He runs an offense to a degree, but he's kind of the opposite of Stan Van Gundy,

neither one of them is good of running an offense. Stan Van Gundy would run the offense with an iron fist call every single half court set from just from this very short list of plays that you get a month to two months into the season,

every single team in the league knows what he's going to call. Dwayne Casey puts out a more competent offense but doesn't seem to call any plays at all or really actively manage the offense at all. Before I forget, I was wrong about that broken play ended up with Rose isolation. That wasn't the last play to game,

but that was the play in which the person could advise the game. The last play the game was Jeremy Grant getting blocked by John Collins. But yeah, I also just want to note that when the game was 106 to 104 and the Pistons needed to stop and the Hawks had a chance to tie. And this was a key defensive possession weight in the game. Dwayne Casey put Blake Griffin on the floor. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like, and this is not Dwayne Casey trying to lose.

This is not a tank commander. This is Dwayne Casey doing what he thinks is the best way to win. No, he thinks Blake Riffin gives it, yeah, yeah, he thinks it's a horrible defender. Yeah, Blake Griffin was a bad defender during his all NBA season, whatever. I mean, he was so good on the opposite on the floor and, you know, he did his best on defense. He often didn't necessarily try super hard on defense, but, you know, that happens, especially if you're carrying a super offensive load and maybe whatever, I'm never going to, not going to condone it.

But LeBron James, for example, just to keep himself fresh, doesn't really play much defense during the regular season. Whatever the case, he can't play defense now. Dwayne Casey had him on that floor for ridiculously had him on the floor for that late game, for that late game, defensive play with the shot clock off against Boston and, you know, against Brad Stevens, who loves his late game isolations, Tatum, an excellent isolation player. There was a 100% chance that he would end up on Blake and Blake had no about defending him. And did Markets Smart say something about that too?

Yeah, Marcus Smart basically said, we were looking for Blake. Yeah, we were looking for Blake and they easily got him. They just ran a pick to get Tatum off of Jeremy Grant. and that was that. Man. So, yeah, and it's, it's like, Marcus Smart ran the pick. So if you, if you want to take the time to run Jeremy Grant back to, back to Jason Taney, he passed to Smart and smart's been an excellent three-point shirt this year.

So it's like, and then in this situation, like, what is Blake Griffin possibly going to do? Like, what are you thinking that's the, that the Hawks are going to throw it to John Collins for a post-up? Like, who, why on earth would they ever do that? It's like, who is, who is ever going to do that in this situation? They've got Trey Young. Yeah. Yeah. They are not going to post up John Collins

and when I'm going to work in the post, which is not a great offensive possession. You can easily be doubled. Yeah. And there were, yeah, I mean, the Hawks got the ball with 20 seconds. I mean, yeah. So what on earth is he doing out there on the floor?

He is out there on the floor because the coach made a bad decision. It completely inexplicable decision. This is the kind of stupid inexplicable decision that Casey has constantly made throughout his coach. and career. But he just often does things that make no sense. And that's just how it is. Yeah. Stuart didn't foul out tonight, did he? Was it, wasn't he available towards the end? Stewart. He didn't foul out. Yeah. Stuart didn't follow up. Stuart has yet to follow up. I'm going to give a shout out to my dad because he had mentioned a pretty cool idea.

He thought that Isaiah Stewart had shown a pretty good aptitude for guarding two through five. And I think when you have, oh, okay, better than Griffin. Oh, there's no doubt better than Griff. Yeah. But my dad, right? So he listens to this bogus, hey dad. So he thinks that Isaiah Stewart's defensive potential is through the roof, right? And so I'm almost wondering if you are so insistent on having a big out there, why isn't it Stewart and why is it Blake?

Because you can make the argument that, well, neither of them can guard Tray Young and they're not going to throw the ball into John Collins in the post. And that's very much true. But I'd rather have, in a crucial situation like that, my very best defense. enders out there. But it's like, Blake is just not capable of doing anything. He's just not capable

of doing anything on that end. So I would have liked to see Stort out there. There's so many players I would have rather seen them Blake Griffin. And it's just so frustrating to know that our head coach actually thought that that was the best way to win that game. It's like,

it boggles my mind. It truly does. I don't even know. Yeah. You have, if John Collins is going to do anything in that situation, he's going to be, he's going to set,

a pick and roll. He's struggling a little bit this season of the pick and roll, but last season, he was one of the better pick and roll players in the league. You're not just going to post him up for no reason. It's just like, yeah, you know, I've said it. It's just like, it's just like this is, again, don't care about the loss. This is just the sort of inexplicably stupid decision that Dwayne Casey makes on a regular basis. And that seems to be an extricable component of his coaching at this point. I don't think it's ever going to change. I mean, this was known. It was no one.

It was the fact before he came to Detroit, it is just how things are. No, there's no indication that it would change. I mean, he's an older guy, too. It's not like this is a 35-year-old head coach who's got a lot to learn, right? Dwayne Casey has won a coach of the Euro Awards. So in his mind, why would he change his ways, right? And he was brought here to win.

I'm sure that's what Tom Gore's mandated of him when he first hired him was, I want to win. Yeah, there's no doubt. He's like, I want to win. And Dwayne Casey's like, well, I know how to win. and this is what he defaults back on. And so I've got to wonder, and I'm curious to know your thoughts on this, Mike, but I wonder what the breaking point is,

or if you even think there is a breaking point, because I think you and I disagree on what Troy Weaver truly wants, and I don't personally think Troy Weaver is sitting in whatever press box he's sitting in when he's watching the game at home, I don't know what he's doing. I don't think Troy is watching this and is necessarily thrilled with what he's seeing, not just because of the loss, but because of how they're losing. And I wonder how that's going to be reconciled between him and Tom Gores and Dwayne Casey. Do you think Troy wants Casey around?

I have no idea. And it's worth mentioning with Gora, as you don't know what his situation. He's always been very all about the winning culture. In my opinion, I think the guy's also just impatient. And that's part of like, you know, the winning culture. We want to just try to keep winning and hope that miraculously, something will change. But do I, sorry, you said.

I guess I'll rephrase it to be a little more succinct. Do you think that Troy Weaver's ultimate championship coach, like his plan for who he wants his coach to be? Yeah, I don't think so either. No, I don't think so either. Honestly, I think that Casey is conceivable could, you know, would just choose to retire regardless at the end of these five years. Unfortunately, he's on year number three.

I mean, this is how I picture how Casey was. hired in the first place. Tom Gores was watching and saw, and saw the Casey was fired. And it's like, he's like, woo-hoo, you know, this guy can help us win. Hell yeah. He did so well with Toronto. You know, he won coach of the year. It's like, awesome. Get him for me. I don't care what you have to do. And it's like I said in the last episode, Tom Gora, you know, Casey, when he accepted his coach of the year award and made a joke about being fired and I don't know if you heard about it and said, I was planning on taking some time off until Tom Gores, you know, talk to me.

and he really on his vision of the team. And it's like, yeah, I think he sold you on making your banker. On your banker, you know, it's larger, yeah. Well, there's no doubt about that. Yeah, it's like what vision? It's like this guy's vision has been a complete and utter disaster. His vision is basically we want to be the eighth seed. We want to make the playoffs.

We have to win now. We don't have a team to win now, but we have to win now. So, no, I don't think Weaver sees him as that. That said, I'm not so sure that Weaver is not similarly obsessed with the winning culture, to, you know, to the exclusion of all else. I mean, the guy really seems to be all about that, getting players, he says. So these are winning players who compete hard on defense. And I wouldn't put it past, you know, outside the rumble possibility that even if he might not like exactly how it's being done, that he's very focused on.

Sure, we don't have the greatest team, but we want to try to compete and have these games be as close as possible. And I couldn't tell you if I don't think the way Casey's doing it is the best way for the Pistons to win. Well, it certainly isn't. No, the way Casey's doing it isn't good for anything. Because if he wants to win, he's not doing a good job of winning, clearly. And if he wants to focus on player development, there's no doubt he's doing a poor job at that. He's doing an awful job at that. He's doing an awful job at everything.

He sucks at everything. He sucks. Yep, I agree. I completely agree. And I've said it before, I'll say it again. I think his plot, it says Mr. Awesome development coach are unearned, and that a lot of that development wouldn't have happened if he's. yet it still had the opportunity to play

Damara Carroll, PJ Tucker, Corey Joseph. No, Toronto wouldn't have that championship. I'm sure we're both very, very sold on that idea. Yeah, I don't even think it's possible. I think it's a likelihood. Even adding Kauai Leonard, I think you have to be very particular about the kind of offense you run

and the kind of coaching philosophy you have if you're going to be serious about winning a championship. Oh, Dwayne Casey, I don't think Dwayne Casey would have gotten past. If you were still the coach, I don't think he would have gotten past the second round in 2019. No, I... Yeah, maybe it peaks at the conference finals, but I certainly don't think they have a ring. I can tell you all right now. I doubt it even down.

I mean, remember, it was game seven, and Kauai won it at the buzzer with that the last second shot in game seven. Yeah, the triple bounce there. Yeah, Dwayne Casey, I mean, yeah, I think a lot of people misremember that it wasn't that, basically he made that shot to avoid going to overtime. I mean, they wouldn't be a tie game. But nonetheless, I mean, that was how close to that series was. Nick Nurse is a dramatically better coach than Casey. You put coach to Casey in that same situation, they're probably out in five or six games,

tops. And I don't think that Casey would have had anything near the imagination necessary to throw the defense that Nick Nurse threw it at Janice and Tadacompo. That really, you know, in addition to, you know, sure, some of his teammates just collapsed, particularly Eric Bledso. But that was a very innovative defense. it worked and I don't think to wait in case he would have done that and I'm not going to say oh yeah Nick Nurse is so great you know is this you know we'll got to be won a championship in his first season

sure he had better you know he had some better personnel in the team he had quite one of the best players in the world and he had the Warriors getting injured I don't think they want to won the championship without that I still think he's a dramatically better coach oh no way no way they would have won without Durant and clay going out but at the end of the day they got their trophy and I'm sure they're not you know complaining about how they got there like I i have berners or Ontario I'm surrounded by Raptors fans, they haven't forgot. Nobody brings up the fact that KD went out. It's just we the north and everybody's flying the flags. So they're happy. They're happy. And I don't think they would have achieved that happiness

if Casey was still the coach. And clearly we're seeing it every night. Yeah. And Toronto fans are, I mean, there was a lot of frustration I remember back that amongst Raptor fans, the same thing. It's like Casey just does the same thing over and over again. He does not, he's not imaginative. He does not adapt. Yeah. He, he, he, he, he, he, Yeah, but yeah, I have no doubt that Raptors fans are still happy. I mean, the Pistons, the players, and the fans were still happy. I was definitely not watching back then, but I know this from the 30 from 30 documentary. Their first championship in the bad boys era, when Magic Johnson went out very early in the series,

Kareem Abdul Jagbar was in his last season. And it was an easy, it was a much easier series because of that. Of course, the Pistons came one very questionable foul call away from beating the the Lakers in six games a season before with everybody healthy. But, yeah, championship is whatever the case. Yeah, I think Nick Nurse is just dramatically better. So, but yeah, I think Troy Weber has this level of complicity here. And I think that if he really felt, you know, I think it's not a little realm of possibility.

He's just all about the winning culture and he's not willing to interfere with what case he's doing. And if that's the case, then I have severe concerns about him. I wasn't a big fan of his offseason. His draft, I think, was okay. I thought it was a little weird that he got rid of Bruce Brown in this particular context. Yeah. For basically what amounted to his second round pick after he waived Musa, who wasn't great, but had some upside for Rodney McGruder, but who has no nothing to offer and the Pistons

and probably wouldn't have a job right now. So I don't know. I just don't know what to think about Weaver. Whatever I guess, somebody, maybe he thinks that things are fun. Is anybody going to intervene? Who knows his case he's going to be fired? I doubt it. You know, not this season.

But, yeah, it's just, it's just a mess. So I know you talked, you mentioned Isaiah Stewart. Why don't we move on and talk about him a little bit? Yeah. Yeah, it's, I spoke. Yeah, Tommy and I spoke about this. I spoke about him a bit. I mean, I really like it in the last episode.

I really like him as Blair. He's definitely a banger. There's no doubt about that. Yeah. He's a super hard worker seems to be not only on the floor, but super hard, by all accounts off the floor, pretty cerebral. I don't know if I agree about his defensive potential being that high. One of his knocks is that he is not very athletic.

He's very strong, but he's not quick, he's not explosive, and he's not a good jumper. I think that'll really limit his defensive potential. You know, you've seen so far in the season quite a bit. Guys just, you know, lofting the ball a little bit too high for him to reach just because he's not a good jumper. he's not very good at getting from place to place. He'll work hard without a doubt, and he's not going to back down for anybody. But still my opinion,

and this is if Stewart can manage to become effectively switchable on defense and become a decent paint defender. He struggled so far. I don't care. I really couldn't care less that he struggled, but, you know, they'll work hard. He'll work to improve, whatever. And if he can shoot threes,

because I think he'll always struggle as an interior score. simply because he can't score from above the rim. He's just pretty much got to loft it from a standing position. So I like him a lot, but I think that his ceiling is low-end, kind of low-cost starter on a good team. Yeah, no, his lack of verticality is certainly going to hurt him on both ends. I would agree with you. And for a guy with that kind of player profile, you'd like to see him be like a bit of a rim runner. And when you can't jump that high, your ability to finish is obviously severely limited, right?

And then on the defensive end, if guys are jumping over you and you can't quite meet them at the peak of their altitude, then that's also limited as well. But I think, and this is just, again, just from having played sports, and I'm sure you know this as well, whatever sport you're playing, a significant part of defense is your desire to play defense. And I think that the heart and passion and hustle that goes into defending is a big piece. of the puzzle. So honestly, when I watch someone like Isaiah Stewart, I could tell how bad he wants to just destroy whoever's in front of him on either end, I'm a lot higher on his potential because I think a player like that with the physical tools that he already has, relative to the rest of the NBA, of course, I think he can develop into something that a player who lacks that drive and that passion might struggle to develop into. So I guess time will tell. Yeah,

yeah, I guess time will tell. But I think his ceiling is higher because of the effort level. Like that's something that separates the Dennis Rodmans from the Andre Drummond's, quite honestly, because I was even just, I was in a conversation watching the game recently where I said something to the effect of, you know, okay, so Isaiah Stewart's got 10 rebounds tonight,

whatever it was, whichever game I was watching. I would rather those 10 rebounds that I've seen right now on my screen than the 20 rebounds that Andre Drummond would give us some nights, right? because there's something to be said about the quality and the value of a rebound. So whereas Drummond might get 20 when he's like tipping in his own shots and he's getting three rebounds on one possession, but he hasn't really helped the team. Whereas Isaiah Stewart's getting 10, but they're coming in limited minutes and they're coming

in situations where he's keeping our offensive possessions alive through sheer willpower. He just wants the ball more than everybody else. That's invaluable. And I'm looking forward to him expanding on that skill set. and I believe that he can. So that's where the, that's where the optimism on him comes in for me personally. Yeah, I agree that if he is much,

he's very likely to reach whatever his ceiling is just because he's a super hard worker. I think that just because, you know, as you said, he's not going to be the greatest role, man, because you're basically, you have to dish it to him under the basket every time. Yeah.

He's not going to be a lot threat. He, maybe he'll improve the post-scorer, but really post-scoring is not going to be a big aspect of any offense, unless you're an amazing post-scorer, like Yolkitch or Embed, who's just an absolute battering ram, because it just drops the flow of the offense, and it's just not a high-efficiency form of offense for most players. So I think that spacing the floor is going to be very important for him.

Right now, Dwayne Casey has come out and said he's not asking Stewart to shoot because he doesn't want to ask him to do too much. And I guess too much is anything beyond setting screens and collecting rebounds. Yeah, that's too much. Yeah, that's just too much for a guy who clearly, you know, just, you know, will quail at any additional responsibility. He's not thrown his way. It's like, are you kidding me?

I think that this can be translated as I want to win games. I don't want to give him the opportunity to do this because I don't think he's good enough at it yet. No, yeah. If you told Isaiah Stort to go to the moon at halftime, he would go to the moon. Like that guy would do anything. A coach asked. And honestly, I think you and I are in agreement. He wants it bad enough to where if this guy worked at something, he's likely to make it happen.

So I know, yeah, we were talking about Casey mentioning, oh, he's probably going to be able to shoot but right now that's not what I want. I think, and I'll, you know, I'll plant my flag. I think that Isaiah Stewart could become a somewhat respectable three-point shooter in his career because he really wants it that bad. He's got a decent stroke, too. Some guys just don't have to stroke. He looks nice.

He took a couple of mid-range shots earlier, and then has he taken a three? I don't remember if he has. He's attempted one, I believe, was late in the shot clock. Yeah, his stroke looks really nice, which that to me, and he's a pretty good free-throw shooter, too, which is a very good indicator of how. how you're going to be, well, at least it is in college. So I think he'll be good, but one thing that we've discussed at length is that your best bet on improving at something is to actually do it in an NBA game.

So I don't understand, I even said this tonight, I don't, no Pistons fan is going to be upset if Isaiah Stewart tosses up a three and it looks good and he's in a good position to do so, and he breaks it. Nobody's going to be upset because that's the way that he's going to improve. and we're obviously not looking to win games or make a playoff run this year. So I don't understand why Casey's not asking that of him. What he should be saying is, hey, look, don't hunt your three-point shot like your prime Steph Curry. But if it's there, take it.

That's what a good coach would say. And because Stort hasn't taken any, we're only left to believe that he's told him not to, unless it's his last resort. Pretty much. Yeah, I would say that's absolutely certain. Yeah, I remain a little bit of septuropical. Troy Weaver for not giving this team any spacing at the five. Stewart is the only one who has any potential as a floor spacer.

I agree. Yeah, he's just not being allowed to do it. And this is just one of the things with the rebuild. It's, yeah, it's like you said, learn by doing. You know, give these guys a chance, give these guys a chance to improve by doing, to learn by doing. That is absolutely not what is happening right now. No, it is. Instead, the pistons are chasing wins for no reason.

So, yeah, I think you can just come back to it again and again and again. It's just infuriating. I don't think we're going to see Dwayne case to get fired. Troy Weaver's got to do something, in my opinion. No, he does. He's got to sit down and talk to him. For sure, he does. Yeah, it's just, there's the unfortunate possibility that Troy Weaver is an unknown quantity.

I mean, this is the guy has been a general manager for, you know, as far as the things he has been doing for just a couple of months. He's been a general manager in general since June, but in terms of actual operations, you know, beyond just draft scouting. Yeah, who knows? It's hard to know. Maybe he's okay with this. I certainly hope not, but, but maybe he is. Yeah, it remains to be seen. I'll sprinkle in a little optimistic.

optimism in that I think that we do have a competent person running the team. And I guess I'm basing that off of the winning pedigree and OKC and not only the winning pedigree, but the fact that they largely built through the draft, which to me, when you come from like a quote unquote small market team, basically, I mean, when you're when you're managing a team that's not Los Angeles or Miami, basically, I think that building a team is hard. And he was clearly a part of a front office who could do it. So I'm choosing to remain optimistic. I think he has a good vision that he'll be able to execute. But this Dwayne Casey situation right now is highly alarming and how he ends up responding to it or what he has to say about it or how he shows his cards through his actions

coming up. That's going to really tell the story. So I'm choosing to remain hopeful. I could be wrong, but we'll have to see. Yeah, fair enough. All right. Yeah. Do you have anything else? Do you have anything else you'd like to talk about this episode? Dwayne Casey sucks. Sucks, man. I hate watching it. I hate watching it right now. Why didn't you say this before?

We're already at 57 minutes. You'd think I would have mentioned it once or twice, but no, the only thing I have to say is that obviously we're all going to keep watching. Like, we love the Pistons. At the end of the day, it might seem like we've been harsh because there's a large contingency of Pistons fans who are really, really, I shouldn't say really, really, but they respect Dwayne Casey and they think that he knows best. And I would argue that the argument to authority is not good.

And the argument to authority being that just because someone has a credential next to their name or is in a position, right, that says they know what they're talking about doesn't necessarily know what they mean that they know what they're talking about. Oh, absolutely. You've seen that at every level of the world, right? Absolutely. Certainly in sports, certainly Detroit sports.

Oh, 100%. 100%, whether it's the lions, the pistons. It doesn't matter. What matters is we will say nice things about our teams when they give us nice things to say. And right now, there's nothing nice to say. There isn't. And hopefully, you know, maybe next week we can get back on the pot and we can be like, wow, that was awesome. That was great.

Love what we just watched. But tonight is not that night. Yeah, I agree. I'm long past the point at which I will think that coach knows best or even their GM knows best. Like I said, we've seen it at every level, really at every level. Just having the position doesn't necessarily mean you're qualified for it. Certainly in Detroit sports, you know, we just saw Matt Patricia and who is the GM of the last? Bob Quinn.

I'm really upset. I had to say, I'm really upset. I had to say Bob Quinn tonight. But, yeah, Bob Quinn and Matt Patricia. Bob Quinn came in in 2016. Fire Jim Caldwell. Patricia came in in 17. And they were both fired right after the Thanksgiving game.

Yeah. Didn't Patricia come in in 2018? What is 20? You see, they all blend together because it's been like a moment. I believe, yeah, I believe he did. He, Buckwin was 20, yeah, 2015 or 2016, and then basically Patricia's had two and a half years. Yeah, because, yeah, because Patricia was hired during Van Gundy's final season because I remember. Okay, yeah.

Yeah, I remember on some sort of medium, I might have been in the All-Star game and somebody came out and said, incorrect, obviously incorrectly, that Matt Patricia has been hired as a coach to Detroit Pistons. So, I'm sure you remember that. Oh, during the Super Bowl, they said. Yeah, yeah, I do remember. Oh, it was during the Super Bowl, right, yes. So whatever the case, yeah, we've seen it plenty of times in Detroit that it's just, it's not true.

You have those two guys, and you have them very recently. They were complete failures. They were in their positions. They were complete failures. And they had more credentials than Dwayne Casey did because between Bob Quinn and Matt Patricia, I believe it was four or five Super Bowls coming from New England, right? So when they come in and they say, hey, well, it was basically, this can definitely be cross extrapolated out to the pistons right because bob quinn and dway and matt patricia come in

and they say hey we know what it takes to win a championship look at the rings on our fingers we're going to do things the patriot way which they're now going to brand the lion's way and that's it and a story if you disagree get out and players started getting shipped out and the locker room was horrible and obviously the experiment ended in in a massive failure right and so that's you know you got to think did tom gores think that of dwayne casey like oh my god this guy's got a coach of the year. That must mean that he knows what he's talking about, and whatever he does is going to be good, you know?

Yeah, I don't know. It's, I'd say it's the same thing, even with pedigreed, even with, yeah, like you said, with pedigree people, like Ken Holland, sure, the Pistons won four Stanley, three Stanley Cups with him as general manager, an additional one with him as assistant general manager. Oh, the wings, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So Ken Holland, he was good for a while. He was not so good in the post-cap era. Sure, the piston, excuse me, the red wings were, we're pretty darn successful team for the first four seasons. But it became quickly apparent that it's a lot easier to be successful when you have bottomless pockets. You can outspend everybody else. And also you have a European scouting infrastructure that is just vastly more advanced than that of other teams. They just haven't caught up. But when teams, when you no longer have those advantages, you know,

sure you have these Stanley Cups in your past, but you're not very good anymore. I mean, and Ken Holland, I think after 2009, was a very bad GM. So, you know, even when it comes to, even when it comes to, you know, actually directly credentialed personnel, yeah, just because they're there, it doesn't necessarily mean to know what they're talking about. No, accolades don't mean anything unless you yourself go out. And as the guy, whether that's Troy Weaver or whether that's Bob Quinn, Dwayne, Casey, whatever.

In the moments, too. In the moment. Not in the past, yeah. Not in the past. You show that you are able to win a championship. because like and honestly probably the best argument for this whole idea that we've been talking about is that there really haven't been any coaches that have come out from Bill Belichick's coaching tree that have been even let alone let's not even talk about replicating the Patriot success just success in general

they haven't had it which means that just because you come from somewhere doesn't mean you know what you're doing right and I guess you know I was trying to be optimistic about Weaver maybe I've now talked myself on a Weaver too so I'm going to stop Fair enough. All right, so we reached about an hour into here. So we're going to call for the episode at this point. I want to thank you all for listening as always. We'll see you next time.