Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 32: Wayne Ellington and Isaiah Stewart, plus new co-host

Episode Date: January 31, 2021

This episode speaks at length on Wayne Ellington's hot streak, role in the offense, and potential for trade value, takes a deep dive into Isaiah Stewart's player profile, performance, and progress, and announces Dante (AKA ChefCurrySauce) as the podcast's newest co-host.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Drive into the Basket. We are here once more with Dante, who will actually be joining us full time from here on out as our third co-host, Dante. Thank you. We're excited to have you on board. I'm excited to keep doing it. It's been a lot of fun, and I really appreciate you guys having me. And I'm sure it'll continue to be fun. Absolutely. We'll look forward to it. So we're just going to launch right into a discussion about Wayne Allington, perhaps the most interesting Pist, and over the last. two weeks it's been so ellington as we all know has been on an absolutely scorching hot streak the guy has been over the past eight games beating with his entrance uh really a big minute entrance in the starting lineup so to speak against the miami heat on the 16th of january has been averaging 17 and a half points per game on a 60 percent shooting from the 3.1 8.8.4 attempts per game needless to say that's

an absolutely amazing percentage and he's more or less become the focal point of the offense, you know, outside of you know, outside of Jeremy Grant's self-graded offense. The offense basically exists right now to generate wide open three-point attempts for Wayne Ellington. And these aren't simply spot-up attempt.

He's actually been taking pretty difficult shots. He's, as we know from his last stint with pistons, he's pretty expert at setting himself off the moment. move. So basically, we'll just talk a little bit about this. So Tommy, I know you have certain thoughts about the role he's been playing in the offense and how Casey's been catering to him. First, I should note about this.

Wayne Ellington's performance from three-point line is not sustainable. That this just should be said. First off, nobody. Nobody, nobody. That sustained 60% from the three-point line. hardly anybody can sustain 50% from the 3.1. Wayne Ellington is a 38% career three-point shooter. His best season was about 39% I believe with the Miami Heat.

And so right now he's shooting well over 20% in excess of his career three-point average. His primary regression candidate as they come, it's going to happen. The question is how far he'll regress, of course. But yeah, so Tommy, why don't you talk a little bit about his role and how you feel that contrast with the attention given to certain other players in the roster? Yeah, I mean, you can argue that the Piston should be using these minutes for younger guys, but it's pretty clear that Casey and Weaver have opted to prioritize competitive play on the court rather than use those minutes for development. And with that in mind, I think you have to agree that Ellington deserves these minutes. Like you said, the degree of difficulty on these shots, the way he's coming off screens. He's absolutely taking advantage.

And I think one of the... Let's look at this. One of the reasons that the Warriors' offense is so hard to guard is that their shooters are constantly moving and the defense has to keep adjusting. And that's where their windows come from. It helps that they have Steph Curry and Clay Thompson, usually. But Ellington's doing the same sort of thing here.

He's moving. He's coming off screens, double screens, and he's gaining these open looks. And he's the main beneficiary of a lot of Casey's play calling. And it's interesting to look at because we kind of, we've been upset at Casey in the past for kind of running the offense through Blake Griffin and Derek Rose, who are just like ISO scores. But this is showing that Casey is capable of running like this really nice looking offense. And obviously, yeah, Wayne Ellington's not going to continue to shoot 60% on threes.

But I don't expect him to tank his percentage too much. So that's the main thing. Ellington's not just taking spot of threes. He's not standing in the corner letting something come to him. he's really working very hard for these great looks. And I think the main thing for me is that I'd like some of these looks to go to guys like Svi. I think Svi could do this too. But Ellington is really, really taken advantage of this.

So watching that more, I've come to appreciate his game and what Casey is capable of designing, or maybe one of the other coaches is designing this. And that's really a lot of fun to watch. honestly yeah Tommy I I'm fully in agreement I'm a huge fan of well I've become even more of a fan of Wayne over these past six or seven games whatever it was yeah he's been otherworldly like he's just been incredible and you guys are absolutely right it's not just that he's draining these shots it's like the what kind of shots he's actually making you know he's not just standing there in the corner wide open even though he hits those two he's dribbling back and

forth he's shooting off balance he's coming around screens taking handoffs even within the three-point line, his floaters and his drives to the basket are falling as well. So he's just, yeah, it's not even on fire. He's just, he's like molten lava right now. He's incredible. And I agree with you too, Tommy. In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter that he's shooting at such a ridiculous percentage for this organization right now? Not really.

I mean, I would probably rather that, that usage go to Svi and Bay. and other players, but that's not how Casey operates. That's not clearly in the spirit of the organization right now. They want to be competitive in all facets. So while Wayne is here and while he's gobbling up these minutes, it's a good thing that he's scoring because it has been pretty fun to watch. And ultimately, as far as the long-term future of this team, it's going to come down to certainly not sustainable,

but is his play sustainable enough to maybe, garner some interest at the trade deadline. And I'm curious to see if it will because I wasn't optimistic at first. But as the games have gone on and he's continued, you almost wonder if maybe someone will throw a future second our way come the trade deadline. So I'm curious to know what you guys think about that. I think it's,

he'll need to sustain it over a significantly longer period. Basically, I mean, everybody knew that, that Wayne Ellington was a good shooter. I mean, it's always been the case. I mean, it was the case when he was at the heat, for example, in the heap of the team for which he played prior to his first in Detroit. That said, you know, he was coming off in 2017-2018 was his best overall season when he shot 39% on, I don't know, seven and a half attempts per game for the heat.

The next season, he was shooting 37.1% on about seven attempts per game. good score. That's still a good shooter, rather. You know, especially because, as we know, Ellington, this is one of those guys who can set quickly, who can shoot off pump fakes, who can shoot from around screens, very valuable skills. Nonetheless, they couldn't find a a trade that take her form of a trade deadline. They just waived him altogether. You know, it's just gone. You know, go find yourself another team. We're going to pay you to leave for the season. So, Allenton does have some faults. Basically, sure, he can get the average floater. He's a decent passer.

But outside of being a three-point shooter, basically he's not going to start for a good team. The good team is going to have better options in the starting lineup. Ellington's a decent defender, but he's exploitable. He's just not very versatile in general. And other teams just might have better options. So his trade value will be impeded by the fact that wherever he goes, he's probably not going to be playing 30 minutes a game or anything close to it. And especially once you look to the playoffs where rotations really shrink,

you might see the average team might be playing like seven guys a game and your starters are playing 40 plus minutes. He's just going to see, he's going to see less go. He's going to see a smaller role in the offense and so on and so forth. So that would impair a straight value in the first place. In addition to the fact that, you know, he's 33 years old, we saw that Reggie Bullock, who was one of the best three-point shooters in the league two seasons ago, got traded for basically the best offer of the Pistons got for him was either two second round picks or

a second round pick and the process, you know, and C. McCoy, those are the offers they got from the Lakers. And Reggie Bullock was much younger, you know, this bigger, better defender, not great defender, but better defender. And conceivably with more upside, also full bird rights. But in general, Wayne's going to have to be shooting at a 40 plus percent clip until the trade deadline to have really much of any value.

And I'd say the best the pistons would get for him is a couple of future seconds, maybe one second round pick. Yeah, it's better than nothing. I think of it's probably more long-term value to the Pistons than a 33-year-old. Oh, no doubt. Absolutely. So I guess at the end of the day, we're just going to have to keep our fingers crossed that he keeps it up, no matter how unlikely it is, because I don't know about you guys.

I don't see much value in scoring 17 and a half points per game or whatever the exact number he's at as a 33-year-old for a rebuilding team and where the value truly is. is if he's valuable to another team. And if that only comes with continued success, then we just have to hope for that continued success. Yeah, I would say the likeliest candidate would be, yeah, I'd say the likeliest candidate would be a fringe playoff team that's willing to show out a second round pick in an effort

to try to either make the playoffs or get a better seed. Yeah. A team that doesn't really necessarily have the deep rotation and is willing to give them the more significant minutes. And they might. You know, I know you mentioned that to the, He couldn't find a suitor for him, but also, too, the landscape of the NBA changes every year. And different organizations are in different places.

So maybe this year, some team is looking to make a push and they think that a guy shooting right around 40% from three on high volume is worth, you know, parting ways with a future second round pick. So again, it's going to come down to how he continues to play and what other teams end up thinking of him. But, you know, I could stay optimistic because he's certainly not short on opportunity right now. Now, he's going to get all the opportunity in the world with this team, with this coaching staff. So if he can maintain his play, that's on him to see if he actually can maintain it. And then if he does, hopefully we can reap the rewards. Yeah. I'd say, pardon me, I'd say not only would, not only can we expect him to regress, though.

Other teams, I think, will more effectively start to game plan against him. I think the Pistons probably aren't taken entirely seriously by a buddy, Well, let's put it this way. I don't think I can say that other teams don't game plan for the business. Maybe they game, if coaches, I'm sure, game plan equally for any team they play against. But basically Casey's offense right now, it's sort of similar to how Kyle Corver was utilized by the Hawks back five, six years ago, in which they ran a lot of stuff just to get them open threes because he was almost guaranteed to hit them on high percentage no matter what. So I think the nice thing for them is that they had four other players who could really score a lot of points if you let them do so.

I think with the Pistons have become a little bit easier to game play. KCP did a good job on Ellington last game. KCB, as we all know, is a good off-ball defender. He was clearly completely exhausted. The Lakers were all exhausted for the night before playing a very close game against the 76ers, is one of the best teams in the league. The Pistons retired, too.

Clearly, they played the night before also. But I think you'll see teams start to game plan them for them better. But I know, Tommy, that you saw basically the difference between what Casey has been willing to run for Ellington versus the likes of the, excuse me, of Sadiq Bay and Sveemich-McCa-Lew. So basically Ellington is what Sviw was for the. Pistons last season. Yeah, this season, and Casey's not giving, excuse me, Svi, very much at all. And to some degree I get that, because one of the things that Ellington is able to do that Svee can't is get to the rim. I mean, Svee gets there, but he's not very good once he gets there. And, you know, we've seen his short arms are a real problem. So I'm not asking Casey to give

Svee everything that he's giving to Allington. I don't think that's realistic and I don't think that's an effective way of using him. But I think running more of these off-ball screens for Sveed to get him open looks instead of relying on Sveed to create his own look by, I don't know, perimeter dribble moves and stuff, I think that would be a much better use of him. And it's still such a head scratcher to me that Sveed doesn't get really any minutes right now. I don't know why he's the guy out of the rotation. We've seen, there are some people who are saying, well, he's shooting like crap this year.

And to them I would say, that's fine. I mean, let him shoot his way out of this slump. know what Sveedima McIllick is capable of. And then Sadiq, having watched more of his game, I get it more. Sadiq is not a very good offball mover. Right now, Casey is using him by putting him in the corner and kind of hoping that his gravity as a shooter is going to make it easier for whatever is going on in the perimeter on the opposite side of the court. And that's probably not the best use of him. I would still like Sadiq to learn how to use off ball screens because right now Casey is giving him nothing. And when Griffin plays, he doesn't even see the floor. But I get it to a

degree because Sadiq doesn't move that well. His jumper isn't as fluid looking as wanes. And I think he's a much better catch and shoot guy. But I think if Casey could create something for him where you know, Sadiq comes off a screen, he comes around a screen and then somebody gets him the ball and let's him let it fly, I think he'd really, really benefit from that. So I was upset at first, like, why is Wayne Ellington getting all this stuff? But I think Wayne is going to be able to do it a lot better than Sadiq and considerably better than Svei. But still, you have to think about, is it worth it?

Do you really want all this for Wayne Ellington at the expense of getting really nothing for Sadiq Bay and even less for Sveemkela Kailuk. Yeah, I mean, I hate to be pessimistic. You guys, and I know we've been a little tough on Coach Casey the past couple of episodes, but Tommy, I hate to break it to you, but using young players in creative ways is not exactly this coaching staff strength, as we've all observed. And it's really unfortunate because, you know, like you said, you make a good point when you say that you can't expect Svi or Sadiq to do exactly what Wayne does right now.

But to that, I would say Wayne is 33 years old. He's been in this league for many, many years. And he should have tricks up his sleeve and go-to moves that young players don't. But the only way for those players to develop and to gain those practical in-game skills is to be given the chance, to be put in a position to succeed rather. So unless they stop being relegated to just standing in the corner, whether or not they're good with their perimeter dribble moves or moving off the ball, I feel like their growth might stagnate because the ways that Wayne is being used right now are extremely creative. And I would be absolutely fired up if it was Sadiq or Svi, but it's not. So your question, is it worth it with a 33-year-old Wayne?

I don't think so. I don't think it's worth it at the expense of players who are actually. going to be on this team and going to contribute to this team down the line. But again, that's kind of what we're dealing with right now. And it all goes back to hoping that he can keep it up so we can get him out of here. And we can recoup some value in the process. Yeah. If Killian was on this team and starting, it might be more worth it because, you know,

he's playing with a guy who's going to be shouldering a percentage of the offense. But right now with this five veteran starting lineup, it really doesn't feel worth it. No, Killian being in the starting lineup changes everything. Absolutely, it changes everything because out of the three first round picks, there's no doubt that he's like the crown jewel of the offseason for this team. And I know that's how the team views him. So if he was out there in the starting lineup, then yeah, you'd want to give him these capable shooters who are really good at moving off the ball all day long, give him that.

But because he's not here and the point guard is Delon right, now I don't feel it's worth it. I can tell Mike's dying to jump in here, but I feel like you probably share that sentiment. Yeah, I slump every time I see the starting lineup as five veterans. Me too. It is what it is right now. I agree absolutely with what you said about Casey and his use of young players in creative ways. So really, Dwayne Casey, the way he is, if he can trust, if he can give a veteran a role, if he can trust a veteran with a role, he will do that any time over trusting a rookie with just a young player in general with that role.

he's going to go for the guy he feels he can rely upon rather than the one with the maybe potentially higher ceiling who just can't be trusted to do that right now or he doesn't feel he can trust that player or that player needs to develop even if that player might do out developing on the court. So Sveen last year was one of the best shooters in the NBA just in the perimeter sense. As we said in the last episode he shot very well on spot-up attempts. He shot very well on attempts taken off of handoffs. and around screens, those are extremely useful skills. And he did this on, you know, in a full season basis. He played 56 games. He started 27 of those.

His numbers did not at all suffer when he was in the starting lineup. So it, yeah, it's, I certainly agree with what the two of you were saying, that it's, I think it's highly unfortunate that Casey is willing to, and, you know, and sure, Wayne has earned this. he's doing really well with it, but Casey is willing to give Wayne all this opportunity and basically make him one of the pivots of the offense, but he's not,

and he did this to a degree with Svi last year, but now Wayne's there, he's not going to do it for Svi, where, you know, despite the fact that Svi has a future with this team, and Wayne probably has a future with this team, and Wayne does not. And Sadiq Bay, you know, you might find ways to get him more involved.

I would really like to see that happen, you know, run plays for the guy, you know, run plays for Svi, Ray Run plays, you know, do things that are going to cater to the specific strengths of each of these players, each of these young players and each of your players in general. And that's something that, yeah, this current coaching staff does not do, really just not altogether do, you know, at all. You know, that's just the way it is. And I think on your average rebuilding squad, no matter how well, you know, no matter how well Ellington were to do, he would still be coming off the bench in favor. No, absolutely no doubt.

Yeah, he might be shooting this well, but he would still be coming off the bench and still playing like maybe 15 to 20 minutes a game. It's, I really don't like this compete while rebuilding philosophy. I really don't like it. I've been, I know I've already said this, so I'm not going to expand upon it again. Expand upon it again, rather. But I really don't like it. I think it's, I think it's sort of just another variation on the one foot on one foot on either side of the line. line, you know, if we're talking the line between rebuilding, competing, the Pistons have

one foot and either side of the line, and if some things were to go differently, the Pistons could easily be, have a little lottery record right now, and that could still happen. Though it's worth noting that for the, just a transition into briefly to another topic, that's, you have the competitive, and let's not talk too much about this, because I want to talk more on a future episode about, about draft position and the Pistons competitors for such, but I think just briefly it's worth noting that the pistons have been helped by a couple of factors. Number one, aside from Killian, they've basically been healthy all season. Number two, there have been a great deal of key absences on the other side in most of their games.

So, but, you know, we'll see. So let's move on to one of the young players. We talked about Isaiah Stewart a bit. This other last episode or two episodes ago. So just a really, really, really likable rookie. I know a lot of people really feel that he embodies that Detroit spirit that was really, you know, exemplified first by the bad boys and then they go into work pistons. I think he puts a lot of people in mind of Ben Wallace and Dennis Robin in terms of just his grit and his work ethic and then just his relentless. just a relentless work ethic and attitude and whatnot on the court.

So, yeah, Tommy, I know you just find Isaiah Stewart to be a joy to watch. Yeah, I really like the matchup against Harrell and the Lakers game. I think that's kind of his ideal role, and I think we can talk about that more later. But being that energy guy who's just kind of fighting and kind of inspiring your teammates to play harder, not only is that really good for the players. on the court. It's just a lot of fun to watch. I absolutely love that Isaiah Stewart, I agree with

the general sentiment. I think Isaiah Stewart does embody the spirit of Detroit and this hard work and basically fighting for everything. And it's so much fun to watch. I know you have, you know, you've got like the stats pulled up and I know that it's not the best looking, you know, stat sheet, but I think you can contextualize some of it in some ways that it's not that bad. He's made a lot of improvements. I know you have that ready. Yeah, it's so, you know, we should preface it with saying what we've said before is that none of us really care if he has bad stats this year.

I mean, it's, you know, it is, it is, he's a rookie. Most important thing is that he's getting the opportunity. So, yeah, I've done a kind of a dive into the stats, but why don't we just start off by talking about what really we perceive as his strengths and weaknesses. And this I have done pretty, you know, pretty fairly extensively prepared for it. I'll try not to just be talking for this entire time. But, you know, why don't you guys, you know, just to expand upon it a bit first, Dante, what do you really see as Isaiah Stewart's strength and what do you say? see is his major weaknesses. Well, look, any time, you know, you can walk out onto an NBA court as a rookie 19 years

of age and look LeBron James in the face and start chirping him. Like, that's, that to me shows that you've got the, I guess I'll call it the requisite fire to really be a force in this league. So, you know, I wouldn't sit there and say that, do I think he's going to be an all-star? No, I don't really think that's likely. but given the attitude, given the motor that we're seeing almost increase on a night-to-night basis, because I just feel like he's steadily improving. If he keeps up this pace and he maintains his trajectory, I think we're probably looking at,

and you guys can obviously feel free to disagree with me, but I think that at his absolute peak, he could probably be an above-average offensive center if he can learn to space the floor because his athleticism and his balance is really not there. But he does have a nice looking jump shot. And I know there was some discussion about this on Twitter, but Casey was talking about how he believes that this time next year, Stewart could be able to space the floor. And as great as that would be,

I also think it's realistic because one of the best indicators of how you can eventually be from the three-point line is how you are from the free throw line. And obviously, I don't have the stats pulled up in front of me, Mike. I know that you do, but Stuart strikes me as a good three, or not a three point shooter, sorry, as a good free throw shooter. He's got a very mechanically sound form. It looks really good. He's not clanking off the rim.

It's just like a swish almost every time. So, yeah, so the signs are there to me that he could be a good offensive player. And then as far as defense goes, he's already got the motor. He's already got the drive. And we're seeing right now a phenomenon very similar to what Dumboya had last year. where you see this willingness to play defense, but maybe not quite the fundamental technique to do so without fouling. So Stuart is finding himself in foul trouble a lot,

but I feel, and I know we've discussed this before, I feel that that's something that'll come with time where you can defend with the same veracity, but you're not committing foul as well doing so. So I'm pretty optimistic on a ceiling. I think he can be an above-average offensive center, and I think he can be a very good defensive center. and if you combine those two things, you're looking at a plus starter, which is awesome value right outside the lottery.

So generally I'm pretty happy with it. Like I said, I don't have the stats in front of me. I don't know what the stats say, but based on just watching the games, that's my general overview of the player. Yeah, before you dive in, I think it's important to say that Isaiah Stewart is learning a completely different defensive system than what he played in at Washington. In Washington, he was pretty much living in the paint. It was a lot of zone offense, and we saw in the early going. He was still kind of reverting to that. His defensive instincts were to stay in the paint.

There were a few probably three second calls that weren't called just because he would stay there, and they just missed it, thankfully. But now we're seeing that he's getting switched onto LeBron James on the perimeter, and he's kind of learning to pick his spots. And even though I think he got scored on both times, he was switched on to LeBron. he picked the distance between him pretty well. I mean, he defended a LeBron drive, and he got scored on, but he didn't follow. And then he, whether or not you want to say that LeBron was scared to drive against Isaiah Stewart,

LeBron did pull up for a three instead of taking the drive. I think he's just going to have to keep learning to pick his spots and anticipate drives and funnel players along the baseline. But it's a real learning curve for him. learning a ton of new things, and I think he's doing quite well. Yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with those two drives you're talking about. I think it was not quite back to back, but they were pretty close together where LeBron drove and then he managed to finish both times over Stewart.

And those are what I would probably refer to as some of those situations where it's like good defense, better offense. And at the end of the day, it is LeBron James. More often than not, he's going to get to his spots and it's probably going to, you know, you're going to see it go in. But I felt like he hung with him. He had good timing. He had good, for someone who's not explosive, you know, he managed to get up there and

kind of compete with LeBron's vertical a little bit. And it looked okay. So fundamentally, I'm pretty optimistic on how he can develop defensively. And so combined with, you know, I just went on about his offensive potential, I think we're looking at a really good prospect. And now, okay, now we've all been dying for the. advanced stats. So that's, I'm going to turn it to Mike because now I want to hear what the advanced

stats say. It's not so much the advanced stats. There's not really, you know, a ton to talk about, you know, I did a bit of a die, particularly on the defensive end, basically, is what I looked at most. Beyond that, just kind of a deeper analysis into what he's good at and what he really needs to improve upon. But as far as his performance throughout the season, he really defensively speaking, I mean, he's struggled offensively throughout the season.

season. This is really something he needs to work on. Defensively, he really struggled early on. Throughout his first nine games, he was a bad rim protector to the tune of, you know, around 60% of the rim, which is not a good measure. As paint defense, he got really crushed within six feet. He was giving up about 68 and a half percent for opponents against him. He was matched up who are within six feet of the basket. And his perimeter defense, he's given about 39%. Now, the last is kind of just harder to quantify, you know. Some players are going to shoot better than others from the perimeter as far as matchups go.

But ever since, so in his game since then, since the middle of January, his rim defense has gotten a lot better to the tune of about 49%, which is a very good mark. his paint defense is improved just by leaps and bounds and he's improved as a perimeter defender as well though I'm actually fairly certain that's the that the NBA.com metrics on that are off because otherwise I really don't think his opponents are shooting 23% against him and if they are that's more on them than it is on him

so that still remains well below average in terms of efficiency you know, as a score, yeah, it's not good at all, sub 50%. And I don't care. I mean, it's something he needs to work on. And it's something, so what I'm going to launch into here, basically we should talk about what Isaiah Stewart needs to work on

in part in the context of what his just natural weaknesses are as an athlete. So as an athlete, he is, number one, his vertical is poor. And that's something that can be improved upon to some degree, but he's just, he's not vertically explosive. Basically, everybody has a ceiling. Everybody has an athletic ceiling. The three of us could dedicate our entire lives to becoming the greatest athletes we can possibly be, and we are not going to be NBA caliber athletes. And it's just the way it is. Hey, speak for yourself. Yeah. Everybody has, everybody has. I didn't hear you. What did you say? I said speak for yourself and then nobody laughed and I was like, oh, I'm really

me. Let's pretend I'd even say that. Hey, we've got, we've got, you know, we all know a guy. We know Karim who plays the practice squad, I believe, of a D3 team. You've got to be really good at basketball to do that. So, I mean, yeah, it's worth noting. We've done this on the podcast before, and I'm sure everybody knows this. If you are the worst player in the NBA, and this is true now than it was in previous

days in which just being tall, it wasn't sometimes enough to make you, you know, get you pretty close to being a, being a decent NBA player. But basically, if you are the worst player in the NBA, you are one of the best basketball players in the world. I mean, just making it to the NBA. If you make it to the NBA and play like five games, you are still a guy who can go into the average rec league and obliterate everyone. So, yeah, But just back to what I was saying, everybody has an athletic ceiling. And some guys come into the NBA not having quite reached it, but everybody's got a ceiling. And with Stewart, basically, you look at an in-built issue, not the greatest leaver.

And that's not going to change. He's just, he's not vertically explosive. That is what it is. And, you know, that's an issue with the NBA in terms of rim defense as far as scoring above the rim. And his foot speed isn't the greatest, basically just his ability to, to, to, speed up his ability to change directions. His lateral mobility seems decent. And just in general, he's just not, he's just not an explosive athlete. He's not a guy who's really just going to put on these big bursts of speed, whether on offense or defense. So those are weaknesses. Those

are weaknesses at the NBA level. Your ceiling at the NBA level is going to be defined in part by your athleticism. Having a very high athletic ceiling is a, you know, it's a big deal. That's, we can talk about Kinnar versus Mitchell with more distance now because Kinnard isn't on the team either. I mean, not that we needed more distance, but it's a little less painful, I guess. So one of the differences, so Kinnard was certainly a better shooter coming in. He was the guy with the higher floor, because he was a better shooter, and shooting is always going to be a very valuable NBA skill. but his athletic ceiling was low, and that's going to limit you.

Whereas Donovan Mitchell has an extremely high athletic ceiling, and that's a big asset just in terms of what it allows you to do. So back to Stewart, those are some weaknesses to consider. Now, just general. I don't want to call them weaknesses. Those are factors. They're limitations. Yeah, they're limitations.

Yeah, exactly. That's a good way of putting it. So thank you, counselor. So, yeah, carry on. What a long-scale joke there. Man, I do this part to get away from all that. Yeah, all right. So, yeah, so we'll look at basically strength,

the strengths and weaknesses in the context of those limitations. So his strengths, this is a bodily strength. He is extremely strong and very dense. So he's at around 6'9, 250, low body fat. The guy, just in terms of his strength and density is really something else. So among centers these days, like it used to be that you could just be as a center, you can be as tall and as bulky as you like. If you're slow-footed, it wasn't a big deal. That's not the case anymore.

The trend in the league just based on effectiveness on both ends is more toward mobility now. So your centers are just a lot less densely built than they once were. So you have some guys, some centers who are both strong and mobile. You have guys like Ambide and Davis not a bio. they have a greater advantage now because they are bigger than their average opponents and they can bully them. You have some who are strong and not as mobile and therefore will suffer from some issues with defensive switchability and just overall mobility. You got Yokic and Vujovic and to a degree, Sabanis.

And then you have some who are mobile but not nearly as strong in Christian Wood's really an example of that. So Stewart, as we saw against Harrow, we saw it to a degree against Embed. and against DeMarcus Cousins, who is a shadow of his former cell, but as we saw in the game after, he played against the Pistons, is still capable of some decent stuff. So Stewart does pretty well, or has done pretty well against them, because they can't bully him. He's not the tallest, but he's very dense.

In the post, they can't just push him back toward the basket. They can try it. It's not going to work very well. You've got a limited amount of time, you know, the shot clock, and also little known rule five seconds back to the basket. You can't post up somebody to your back to the basket. more than five seconds for what that's worth. So you can't bully him that way.

If they want to drive to the basket, they can't just move him aside. They have to drive around him. And assuming he can avoid following these are assets, and he's gotten better at that by just on the drive, just keeping his arms up. M.B. managed to draw a couple of follows off of him in the post, I believe, and that's just, M. B.D. is amazing at drawing fouls.

And I know a lot of people don't like Trey Young, for example, or James Harden, because they think they just draw BS fouls. Embedde draws real fouls. I mean, Mbid gets hacked. Mbid gets pushed. I mean, he draws his fouls by being a very physical player. So, yeah, I mean, post-offense isn't big, but it's helpful if you can't be bullied. Stewart is very good at repositioning within the paint, despite his below-average foot speed.

That's, again, due to his density. If he gets somewhere in the paints, you're not going to be able to move him. Basically, I mean, you're going to either have to, you know, sure there's the aspect the blocking. But if he gets there, I mean, he's planted. You're going to have to go around him. You know, at the very least, he's established his position immediately, just by the fact that he is very difficult to move. He just basically sticks to where he is. You know, accordingly, he can't be moved easily under the basket on offense. That's one of the things that makes him such a good offensive rebounder. He's established his position. Almost everybody around him is going to be

considerably, it's not going to be anywhere near as strong or as, as, as dense as he is. you couple that with his with his wingspan which i believe is seven four and his good second jump and just his relentless pursuit of the ball that makes him an effective offensive rebounder uh the guy as we know runs hard the floor hard in transition he's a super hard worker uh sort of never say die player and never backs down from anything and uh he's got an extreme winners mentality and just the sort of maniacal work ethic that that's possessed by guys like like bam abo And autobiio is considerably more athletic than Stewart. And I don't think Stewart overreached that point.

But the autobiose work ethic and it's just cerebral nature. But Stewart also has our things that have helped make out of bio the player he is. Stuart's only 19, though, right? Yeah, he has only. That's getting lost in all this is that we talk about how dense he is, how immovable he is when he plants himself in the paint. And I listen, I'm not a sports science major. we just made the law school joke, so that's not my expertise.

But do you stop growing at 19? Like, is there a chance you get taller? No, I'm not talking about. For most people, probably you're not going to get much taller. I know, Ben Simmons grew an inch in between when he was drafted and when he first played. But maybe Stewart would get a bit taller, but I'm talking about getting more athletic. Not in terms of athletic. No, I understand what you're saying.

But I meant there's, we're talking about his density, right, and his strength as a plus. And so he definitely has athletic limitations. He's extraordinarily unlikely to ever break them because that's just the limits of your physical body. But there's a chance he gets taller. There's a chance he gets stronger. And so I'm almost wondering if those athletic limitations can be offset by this continued growth into what is already a very dense frame. Because he's never going to be a great vertical explosive leaper. But at 19 years old to have the, you know, the body that he does,

I wonder what he's going to look like at 25, for example, and how that might change his effectiveness in and around the paint. Yeah, I don't know. It's hard to say. I don't think he wants to get much bigger than he is because that might just slow him down further. I would imagine that having access to MBA training, I mean, the guy's genetically gifted in terms of how strong he is. Yeah.

That's part of it. And I don't doubt that he's worked super hard on it. Like, he just probably works super hard on everything. having access to NBA facilities and sports scientists and trainers and whatnot will help possibly improve his vertical and whatnot. But I wouldn't count on him getting much bigger than he already is. I don't think he probably would really want to. He's already very big by today's NBA standards.

He is a post player, though. I think the biggest thing is that I've seen people comp him to Bam. He just does not have the vertical. And because of that, the verticality and the mobility, those are two of Bam's biggest strength. Those are the things that make him so hard to guard. And I think... That's also why he can guard everybody.

Yeah. Bam's a great passer, too, and I have to see him. Yeah, Bam has things that make him special. It's the same thing with the comps to a Kongwu. I mean, Bam, it's not just his work ethic. He's a great passer. He can switch on to anybody. He's got great defensive instincts.

Yeah. Yeah, he's learning to shoot, too, yeah. So, but just to round out, Stewart's strengths. He seems really cerebral and he seems intent on working on everything. He has his limitations,

but he's got a, he seems to have a really good analytical head and of course, just like I said, a strong intention to improve. And so he has a greater chance than most players to learn to adjust for his physical downsides, just to learn to adjust for his overall limitations. There's no

fully compensating for kind of his lacklesser athleticism. But, if there's a way to compensate or something, he seems very likely to find it. And also beyond, you know, of course, his very team-focused attitude. Intangibles, I mean, he's a guy who's going to provide some, you know, just a boost to his team just by being on the floor. So when it comes to his weaknesses, like we said, poor athleticism in terms of verticality and foot speed plays into basically all of his weaknesses.

So he's, it's pretty easy. you mentioned that drive, you know, when LeBron driving against him, or drove against him, rather. Other guys did this, Cozma, the same thing, and it's been the case throughout the season. Guys who can succeed in staying a little bit ahead of him and then throw it high off the backboard because Stewart just doesn't have the verticality

to get up there and block that, despite his wingspan. So that's an issue. He's going to have to learn how to deal with that. He just can't move and jump well at the same time. He struggles a bit against guys who can stretch the floor, in mid-range stretches like Outta Bio, who really gutted him in one of the games. The Pistons played against the heat.

That stems from his kind of lackluster foot speed. If he gets separated from his man, even a little bit, whether it's by pick or otherwise, and that man goes outside, Stewart's going to have difficulty reaching him again. That plays into his switchability. If he gets switched under a guy who can step back to the three-point line or just step back in general, Stewart just doesn't have the, he just doesn't have the kind of mobility to reach him. If the guy drives a little bit, then steps back. I mean, that's an issue for many defenders, but I think certainly for Stewart is that the guy is probably going to get a good shot off.

In terms of his actual switchability, I've been impressed and he moves his feet. Well, he's not super quick and he's very dense, but he moves his feet pretty well. That helps to compensate. Not the greatest defensive rebounder. Good offensive rebounder. But defensive rebounding, a lot of it is you're already in position to get the rebounds and you jump high. You know, physique is helpful. height is helpful. But being able to jump high is very helpful, and Stewart can't really do that. He'll need to find some way to compensate for that. He's not a bad defensive rebounder, but, you know, part of, you know, just, it's very

helpful to be able to jump, put it that way. And his offense is bad. It's just straight bad. He can't score above the rim because this is just poor verticality. That's, you know, impairs him in part as a lop threat, but also. Also, when he gets the ball underneath the rim, he just goes for this very flat-footed layup. And that's much lower percentage shot than actually having your hands above the rim when you're scoring. You can't just really dunk it very well just from a flat position.

And, yeah, he's just going to have to unborn the habit of doing what he probably did in the NCAA. It's probably fine in the NCAA to just take that flat-footed lay-up. It's not going to work for him in the NBA. He needs to take more time to position himself and just, just find more clever ways to score. Also will help him draw fouls. Hopefully you can learn to shoot. That would be a big asset,

and I think particularly for him, because I don't think he'll ever be really the strongest interior score due to his lack of boost. And finally, the fouls. The fouls are very common to very kind of highly athletic physical NCAA defenders who need to translate that to the NBA

in a much faster pace and just the much better opposition. Bruce Brown had the same issue, and he improved on that significantly in season two. So, yeah, that's where I feel we stand in terms of Isaiah Stewart's strengths and weaknesses. And I feel like if anybody is going to work hard to improve upon his weaknesses, definitely Isaiah Stewart is one of those players. So, Tommy, what do you see as his overall ceiling based on, you know, just based on, you know,

what we've spoken of? And I know this is probably a little premature, you know, because the guys only played about 18 games. But, you know, projection, I suppose. Yeah. If he could find a way to work around his vertical deficiencies, I guess, I think he has a real shot to be a starter. But I feel like the most likely outcome is that he's just a heavy usage bench five. And I say that because he's primarily a post player. He'd probably shoot jump shots on moderate to low volume.

And I think that's just a better role for him. I don't think he's a great complimentary player. I think he's going to be a guy who's holding the ball, stopping the ball. and initiating a lot of his own offense in the post. You know, we saw him passing out of the paint a little bit, and that's good. But I think it would be better to just surround him with shooters and, like, a middle-tier benchpoint guard and let him go to work against what's probably going to be a weaker, slower crop of centers where I feel like he could dominate in spite of his relative

lack of size compared to some of these bigger, faster guys. So I think Dante said he would be a stuff. starter. I'm going to go and be a little bit lower on him than that, but I still love his play style. I think he's a joy to watch. I think games like the ones where he had against Harrell are like his ideal fit. And I think he would really excel in that role and be stable for this Pistons team. It depends as they develop their identity. So I actually disagree. I think that Stewart's ceiling is, as far as good teams go, speaking relative to the standards of good teams, is maybe a below average, but still capable, low-cost center with a lot of intangibles. That, of course, not of course, but I would

say that would depend really on whether or not he becomes able to shoot. If he can't shoot, then, you know, then the best center he's going to be on a contender is kind of a really low-cost one who's surrounded by much better players, like, you know, for example, how the Warriors a field at a succession of really low-cost centers just surrounded by just great talent at three of the other position, four of the other position. Actually, all of them between Curry Thompson, Durant, and Green. So assuming he can learn to shoot,

I think definitely he could be a starter for the Pistons. I don't think he's ever going to be really a game changer at his position. But as long as he's got good players around him, I think he could be an effective guy. He's got to be able to stretch the floor because I don't think he's ever going to be a very good interior score. I think he can be a capable interior score. And if he can stretch the floor, capable is fine. I don't think he's really going to – I could be wrong, of course.

I don't think he's really going to translate his postgame to the NBA, really. That was in college about, you know, two things, really. Number one was just straight bullying people. And he could do that in many cases against the vastly less athletic talents. He defaced the NCAA. way. So it was bullying them or just twirling around them. And you're not going to twirl around a good starting center in the NBA and the post. Also, post offense in the NBA is just really not worthwhile unless you're really good at it. And, you know, maybe it could be. I don't think so.

There are very few guys who are very good enough to make post offense worthwhile in the NBA. So I think that he will continue to improve on defense. And I've been noticing more and more just that his instincts on defense are very good. He tends to know. know where to be. He tends to really pay attention to who he's guarding. And I would guess that he's doing this research. And he strikes me as the kind of guy who'd be doing, you know, who'd be, to be reviewing tape outside a game to see the, just to know better the players against whom he's going to face off and what they're going to do and what shots he should give them and what shots he shouldn't give them. And yeah, so as long as he can become a capable,

interior score, and he's just going to need to work on that. He's going to be disadvantaged by his by his poor vertical, but it's like I've said before, he's a player whom, you know, if there's a guy who is going to find ways to compensate for his physical limitations, you know, Stuart's going to be one of those guys. He's cerebral and he's hardworking. So assuming he becomes that capable interior score, a reliable floor stretcher, and he can be that, you know, he can be that good defender. I I don't think he's going to be elite, but I think he can certainly be capable. Then, yeah, I don't think he's ever going to be a guy who takes over games on offense by any means. And I don't know if he'll ever be a game-changing defender.

But you take those qualities if he has them and couple them with his intangibles. You know, his just relentless work ethic and his attitude and, you know, the way he seems to, you know, probably bother the opposition. And boy, his teammates, really. In addition to just the positive benefits, you know, the obvious benefits of improving in those areas and becoming a starting caliber player, I mean, this is the sort of guy that because of his intangibles, it's great if you can play him starters minutes. So that's what I see as his ceiling. Now, if he doesn't shoot, then he's probably relegated to bench center or a guy who can, you know, kind of capably fill in when your starters out. We're talking on a good team here. So I'd say that's really going to be key.

But if he can do that, I think he stands a solid shot at being a capable center, again, provided that he is surrounded by good players at the other positions. So that'll be up for this week's episode. Next week, we are going to change pace a bit and go into just the overall draft position situation for the Pistons vis-vis how things are looking, just how the Pistons are performing the context of their performance and sort of around the league, the teams that right now are the biggest threats as far as finding themselves high in the draft lottery. So as always, I want to thank you all for listening. We'll see you next time.