Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 40: Rookies redefining their ceilings, Killian returns, & checking in on Josh Jackson and Jerami Grant

Episode Date: April 8, 2021

This episode reviews the to-date performance of Saddiq Bey, Isaiah Stewart, Josh Jackson, and Jerami Grant, and discusses the return of Killian Hayes.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Good day, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Drodden of the Basket. My name is Mike. I'm here with Dante and Tommy. We are recording this shortly after the loss against the Nuggets. It was, thank goodness for a loss. The Pistons have been winning far too many games lately. I believe it's like five out of the last 11. So that's the one-third of their wins on the season coming in a very short span. Meanwhile, the rockets are on the way down as are the magic. with the cavaliers and the timber wolves are as flailing and desperately futile as they have been for goodness knows how long. But this is the first game of a five game road trip in which, you know, if all goes well, the Pistons will both play well and lose every game. So tonight we are going to, or I suppose tonight, whenever you guys may be listening to this, whatever time of day in any event. We are going to do something we spoke about earlier in the season that we, beginning of the season rather, that we haven't really stuck to quite as much,

which is just check up on some players. That'll be the rookies of Killian Hayes, who's recently back in the rotation from injury. Isaiah Stewart and Sadiq Bay and then Josh Jackson and Jeremy Grant, just the players we judged at the beginning of the season to be really among the key guys to watch. So yeah, without further ado, let's get into it. So first one we'll be looking at is Sadieq Bey. Tommy, I know you're a huge fan. Why don't you kick it off? Yeah, I've been really happy with him lately because he's expanded his game. And for as much as I like him, I never saw him as a guy who was going to add to his game too much more. I thought he was kind of going to be just this 3-Ind

guy. Maybe he picks up a few more moves on the perimeter. Like, he's shown some nice side steps, and that's been great. And he pulled a really nice one tonight where he had Michael Porter, Jr. In the complete opposite direction. But it's more than that. Like, he's actually, like, breaking down the defense on his own, on isolations, and then attempting to take it inside. And that's really encouraging, because I did not think he was capable of that.

He's playing around his lack of burst. and that's very encouraging. I still don't buy him as like a future star. Dante, I know that you're higher on him than I am in that regard, but I'm still very happy with what he's shown because now I'm not really sure what he can be because I didn't think he was capable of taking guys one-on-one and he's starting to do it. And he's still only 19 and he's climbing the rookie ladder. So very encouraged by his performance tonight.

And then the second thing is that, yeah, he had a pretty rough stretch here for the past few games. And then tonight against Denver, he shot 50% on threes, six made threes, and 25 points in 24 minutes. So the poise he plays with is just very encouraging. It made me think of how Troy Weaver talked about, like, drafting certain guys with certain personalities. And I think Sadiq Bay's kind of no-nonsense attitude on the court really is kind of the reason for him being able to. to bring it back like this. So very encouraged by his performance lately and especially tonight. For sure. No, for sure, Tommy. I agree with a lot of what you said. I think Sadiq is, yeah, I think he's blossoming before our eyes. I mean, you touched on it for sure. He's expanding his game.

He's not just a catch and shoot 3&D player. He's got those nice side steps. He's, I actually spoke about this a little bit tonight. He's very calm and collected driving to the basket. And you don't off and see these flailing, you know, he just chucks it up and hopes it goes in. Like when he's got a lane, he's very decisive and he almost always scores or he draws a foul. He's getting better and better at it. And the reason that I know you guys might not think he has star potential and I may be a little higher on him than you guys are, but one of the reasons why I think he has a very high ceiling, I'll put it. I think you can attribute part of it to, yeah, he's been in a little bit of a slump lately and the difference between you know a good player and someone who's just all potential and

just showed flashes is that when that hot street kind of dies down and you fade into being cold for a little bit is that where you're going to sit or are you going to round back in a form and sadiq was on fire tonight you know it was i think 25 points in 24 minutes something like that they kept leaving him open i'm not sure why they did um he was exceptional and so that to me at 21 years of age to bounce back from a cold streak and have a performance like that. That to me is a star in the making. So time will tell if I'm right or not, but I'm about as high on him as you could be. Yeah, what's impressed me about Sadiq really is his poise.

Not just, I mean, of course, you'd be impressed by his perimeter shooting and the improvements he's made overall. You know, coming into the season, he really, he could barely score within the arc. He was pretty much just a catch and shoot guy. And he still is primarily a catch and shoot guy. I mean, he's been an excellent catch and shoot guy. Recently, he struggled a bit. But notwithstanding, he's his struggle.

He's shooting about 38% on the season. And he's definitely added to his toolbox as far as scoring within the arc. He's a pretty big dude, you know, pretty well built. He uses that to his advantage. He's crafty. It looks like he's always looking to improve. And he's a cerebral guy. And I think, Tommy, you said the players whom Troy Weaver seeks out are really the, well, they're hard workers.

They're athletic. They're long. But they're also really team-oriented guys and tend to be pretty smart. You know, guys who are always, you know, looking to make the right play and fairly cerebral. And not everybody on the team meets that description, of course. we'll talk about Josh Jackson later. Oh boy. But Bay is, I mean, he's a poised and very steady player, even in his first season in the league.

And I don't think he has star potential. I mean, athleticism is really going to determine so much of your ceiling in the NBA. And Bay is, you know, he's well-built and he's, you know, he's strong and, you know, Those are kind of the same thing, I guess. But he doesn't really have the burst, and that hurts. That makes it a lot harder to break down defenses. It just makes them less of a, it's going to make it a lot harder for him to create offense.

He's done so better lately, but just only under particular circumstances. And even then, very rarely often, very rarely initiating it. So, but I think he's a guy who can be a long-term starter and just the steady presence night after night. He has struggled lately, and I saw him visibly frustrated at times. He does this thing. He gets frustrated after he misses a shot. He bends over and claps on his way back down the floor.

Just a frustration clap. Isaiah Stewart pounce the floor. That's what he does when he gets frustrated. But, yeah, so I'm very happy with how he's turned out even thus far. It's the knock on him coming out of college. and one of the reasons he dropped was the question of really how much more can he improve. He was one of the best shooters in the NCAA and is known as a smart player and a good defender. And he's done well on defense as well, particularly against the smaller players,

not quite as much against the larger ones. But yes, it's the question of what can he really add. And I think he will add whatever he can because he's just that sort of hardworking, smart, just really strong drive to succeed sort of player. But I think it's that athleticism that's really going to hinder him ultimately. Can I bring up a counterpoint to the athleticism? It's not okay to disagree with me. No, it's forbidden, eh?

All right, I'll sign off. I've got to night, guys. I'm just kidding. No, I hear that a lot. I think that's the prevailing narrative with Sadiq is that the one roadblock to start him for him, or at least the biggest roadblock is the lack of birth. the lack of athleticism, the lack of explosiveness. And the best coach I ever had in soccer, I played soccer for many, many years.

And there's a lot of similarities between basketball and soccer. And I was never, you know, I was somewhat fast, but not the fastest guy. And I had a coach tell me once that the way to counteract a lack of insane speed is to cheat a little bit. And not cheat, like break the rules cheat, but cheat as in positionally. right so if you have good anticipation if you have good situational awareness and you're able to predict where you think the ball is going to go or where you think you should be you can counteract your lack of burst right and you see sadiq doing this with one thing that i've noticed about him i don't know if you guys would agree or not but he has very little in the way of wasted movement um every move that he does

every every step is very deliberate um he knows what he wants to do he knows how he needs to do it and when you kind of watch more unpolished players go. Like I hate to rag on Seku, but Seku's pretty unpolished. And he, you know, he's looking at the ball when he's dribbling. He's flailing around a little bit. He's not playing with a whole lot of poise. Whereas Sadiq, like I said, he's deliberate. And so you can counteract some of those athleticism limitations with, with intelligence,

with basketball IQ. And, you know, we just saw it tonight. Like obviously, you know, Sadiq Bay, completely different position, completely different, everything from Nicola Yokic. But Yokic is not exactly a superstar athlete, and he's an MVP frontrunner right now. I understand that he's an incredibly unique player, but the point remains that athleticism,

even though it's probably the most important thing, when it comes to the difference between a role player and a star, it can be overcome, right? You know, you look at Chris Middleton, probably for a more apt example. Chris Milton is not a super... Yeah, he's athletic. I wouldn't say he's a superstar.

our athlete, but his play style to me, I think Sadiq has a comparable ceiling. I do. And I don't view Chris Middleton as like an Uber athletic player. So those are just some of the examples I could come up with. And like I said, I think it can be, I think those limitations can be counteracted with a high basketball like you with anticipation with deliberate movement. And if any player is going to do that, I think Sadiq is one of them. I agree. I don't think, I mean, here's the thing with Nicole Yokic. I mean, I have two thoughts about him. Number one, he plays center. And you can, you can certainly get away with less athleticism at that position. I agree. I do agree with that. But also, he's an example of what you have to be in a system,

but you have to possess in order to be a star in the league. Generally, the mold is, I mean, guys that break the mold, but in the vast majority of circumstances, what you're looking at is, if you are not an elite athlete, you have to be brilliant at. some other facet of the game. Luca's not an elite athlete, but of course, Luca is Luca. Yokic is not. Yokich is Yokich. I don't, you know, other examples are failing me.

But it's like basically, yeah, if you want to be a star and you don't have that athleticism, you have to be absolutely excellent at something. Chris Middleton is actually a pretty darned athletic player. Like he's not like super explosive athletic, but he is pretty athletic. And the way he creates space for himself takes, I mean, he's, he's, excellent at that, just whether it's, it's just whatever he does off the dribble, spinning, you know, his disability to fade away and hit shots. You know, he has that, he has that talent.

And I don't know if Sadiq really has that sort of athleticism either. Sadiq pulled the Kobe. What Dante said was, he pulled the Kobe earlier. He pulled it once and that was, that was in the post. But, yeah, I've only watched the video 30 times. It's all good. Yeah, I don't, I mean, I just, I don't see. that he has the skill set to be a star, and I don't think he needs to be. I mean, I think it's,

I think it's perfectly satisfactory. If the guy is, like, is good enough to be that even the fourth guy in a championship team, I mean, that's a huge win. Yeah, but I like what you said, Dante, about, one, the no unnecessary movement, pardon me, because, like, I agree with you, because there's one thing that I keep playing in my head. This is something that James Harden does a lot on the perimeter. He'll go between his legs, and his defender doesn't know if he's going to go left or right. And Sadiq did that at least once. Yep.

And it was beautiful because it was so mechanical. It looked so good. And he actually drove in off of it. And, yeah, it's, it's, it's, Sadiq is coming up with other ways to compensate for his lack of athleticism. And that changes the game when it comes to Sadiq because, yeah, he's not going to be your traditional star who's getting to the basket with brute force or great burst or anything like that. but if he's just out playing his guy with dribble moves on the perimeter, like that's enough.

I don't think he's ever going to be a second option. I think third would be probably a ceiling just because, you know, the more you game playing a guy like Sadiq, if he's the focal point of the offense, you're going to struggle. But if he's just a really good complimentary player, he's better than a role player, but I don't think he's going to be a star. So it's something in between there. Yeah, I guess we'll see.

I guess we'll see that. I like what you said, Tommy. Yeah, I think consistent starter. I mean, that's a big win, you know, drafting a guy at number 19. And yeah, I would be perfectly, perfectly satisfied with that. And I think he's certainly got that in him. All right, let's move on to Isaiah Stewart. So there's a lot to be said about Isaiah Stewart. Of course, I'll kick it off because I've always had a ton to say about this guy. But so, you know, he's still not at a point where he's, he's really putting up a tremendous amount on the score sheet, and that's fine. You, you know, there are guys whose contribution to the team is going to be considerably less than is on the score sheet. I mean, I don't know. There's this former Detroit center. Can't remember his name who really fell into that category.

Oh, geez. Yeah, I know you know where I'm talking about. Yeah, Jililoka for you. Exactly. No, we're talking about the certain guy who now plays for the Lakers. And then there are other players whose impact that goes beyond what you see on the score sheet,

and Isaiah Stewart is certainly one of those. Another guy like that, you know, there are a number of them, but if you're looking at Senator Al-Horford with the Celtics, who's, you know, and with the Hawks as well, whose stats never really looked particularly impressive, but just did so much to help the team off the score sheet. So Stewart's, you know, he's picked it up offensively lately.

You know, this is his last 12 games or so. He's, well, he's a public career average. He's only scoring nine points in about 20 minutes per game, which is, you know, which is actually just fine. And, I mean, just like Bay, he's put it this way, he's just improved a lot of the course of the season. When he was drafted, my criteria for whether or not he would be able to justify his position at number 16 on the first round were, can he switch on defense and can he stretch the floor? And thus far, I mean, the returns are very promising.

Also, the guy is, he's a maniacally hard worker. He just, he wants to nail it on every single play. He never stops moving. He seems to be a leader out in the court. He's just speaking in terms of intangible. is he just seems to make the players around him better. And just because of what he offers is a guy you really ideally want to be able to have on the court as much as you can. Now, the question of looking forward about his potential is, you know, really what can you offer on offense consistently?

Because he does have some downsides. His mobility isn't the greatest. He compensates for it, but still it's not the greatest. And is he going to be a guy you can really depend upon to put up, you know, but to go for a significant number of points on occasion to give you this sort of offense you need. Verticality also not the greatest we've been over this as a lob threat. He's just more or less non-existent. If he's playing against a decent defender, like caught a lob against OKC, but as a G-League team.

Yeah. And he's been excellent as a paint defender, like excellent because he knows where to be. and anybody who's going up against him is not going to be able to move him. You see guys try to bump him and it doesn't work. Even Yokic couldn't bump in the night and move him. So they can easily keep guys away from the basket. When it comes to his actual rim protection,

you know, defending the room against drives, he's not quite as good. He's been about average by percentage. I mean, he's good at getting there to contest the shots, but he's not the greatest at actually contesting them. And part of that, again, this is verticality because a guy who can really, an opponent who can really sky and put it high off the backboard is likely to score it over his hand.

You know, just giant wingspan, but he's just not a very good first jumper. So, but, you know, I think he's super likable. We've heard certainly the organization is very high on him, and it makes perfect sense to me. And I've been very happy with him. Now, in terms of ceiling, I don't know, I, it's, I've waffled back and forth. I don't think he'll ever be like a like a top 15 starter. But if the Pistons play right at the other positions, he doesn't need to be. So I've been very happy.

And his shot, of course, he's got a good stroke. He's done very well on low volume from three. He's done very well on fairly low volume from midrange. And that's great. So overall, you know, big thumbs up. Just the question is how far can he progress? For sure. Well, 19 years of age, right?

I mean, I think to even, Mike, I think it was you who said this on an earlier episode, but it was almost like we kind of change our minds on what his ceiling is by the game, by the day, because every time we watch him, it seems like he bust out something new. And I hate to say this because it's such a cliche to be like, oh, he's got the intangibles. You know, he does things that don't show up on the score sheet. But I can't think of a recent Detroit Piston that that's the thing. that rings more true for than Isaiah Stewart. Like, you'll, even tonight, for example, you look at the box score, you'd be like,

oh, okay, he scored six, seven points at a couple rebounds, whatever. But when you're watching the game, he makes his presence felt. Like, you know when Isaiah's on the court and he makes it very apparent, you know, his impact on the game is it extends beyond the stat sheet, as cliche as that sounds. So, yeah, I completely agree with you guys. I think he, it's two big thumbs up on the return. far. I think he was absolutely worthy of the number 16 pick. And I really think he's only going to get better. And then I know we're big fans of the athletic on this podcast. And then James Edwards

had a great story. I think it was the title was something like it's time to stop leaving Isaiah Stewart open. And I know it's low volume, but I think that kid can shoot. Like these are not, you know, these are not like wonky shots that he's taking going up. Like his form is good. The trajectory is good. And he's just snapping the net. at almost every single time. So very, very promising so far. What do you think, Tom? Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Like, for me, I'm exactly what you said. Like, I switch back and forth on Isaiah all the time because there are ways that you can work around his deficiencies. And as Isaiah adds more tools, like the idea of that becomes more and more possible. Like you said, Mike, maybe Isaiah doesn't have to be the best center in a, like, He doesn't, maybe doesn't have to be like a super great center. He just has to be good enough. If we can get decent players at other positions,

Isaiah brings so much value with his energy and his positional defense. Like, it's exactly what you said, Dante. You don't see it on the statute. Like, yeah, he had the game against OKC where he had like, what, four blocks and five minutes. But a lot of times he's just playing such great positional defense, keeping his man away from the rim, just staying engaged all the time. I mean, that's not going to show up on the stat sheet, but it's really going to help. And it's not about him chasing blocks.

He's trying to bother the offensive player that he's guarding. And that's really unselfish, and it's great team basketball, because there are definitely guys in the league who will chase the blocks and go for the numbers, as opposed to just playing good positional defense. So you never expect that from Isaiah. He's always going to try to play the team game. but there are just so many different scenarios that I kind of think about where it's like okay maybe he can be a good champion like a good center on a championship team if you have

these guys around him if he can shoot 35% from three if he can take his midrange out to like 16 feet because now there's other guys who are maybe going to be that lob threat like we saw a really nice lob from killing to hamadu and if Isaiah is it would be. good enough space so that he can draw his man away from the rim. Maybe that's another possibility because, like, the game is changing so rapidly. Like, you don't even need a one-five pick-and-roll anymore. We've seen, I mean, Murray didn't play today, but I've seen OKC, or not OKC, Denver run. I don't even know if there's a name for it.

Like reverse pick and rolls where Yokic is the ball hand or Murray will set a screen and then he'll drop and run towards the basket. And they run that. like maybe we can come up with some other iteration of it with all these athletic guys that we have out there. So similar to how Sadiq is kind of playing around his deficiencies, maybe we can find a way to play around Isaiah's. And Isaiah, I trust his work ethic, will continue to expand his game and play the right way. And if we can get the right guys around him, maybe he is a viable starting five. And we've talked in the past, like the center is probably the least valuable position in today's

NBA. So maybe that is valuable to have a guy who's just good enough and maybe he's not as valuable to other teams and he's good value. Oh, I totally agree. Like if you're going to have a guy who has some deficiencies that sort of limit their ceiling, but they bring it in a variety of other ways and they're essentially the heartbeat of your team. I'd rather it be the center. Right. And I think that it can't be overstated. Like it absolutely cannot be fans of, you know, Pistons fans know this better than anybody having that guy on your team the heartbeat of the team the you know the engine the guy who makes everything run the value just can't be overstated yeah you know it's so valuable absolutely oh 100% 100% I completely agree with you and it's like do we need him to be joel mb

do we need him to be nicoke no we just need him to be himself and himself right now at 19 years of age in my opinion has shown that he has what it takes to be a valuable contributor I don't know if it's going to be in points, rebounds, defense, or some amalgamation of all these different facets of the game. But he'll be valuable to a championship team. That's my opinion. I agree. In one way or another, a funny thing you wouldn't, not funny, but the thing you wouldn't expect about Stewart is that he has actually been really effective offensively speaking from the paint, actually in the restricted area all the way out to the three point line. Of course, a lot of this is on fairly low volume. But He's been a good enough restricted area score.

He's really improved in that capacity from earlier on in the season in which he was just, I don't want to say out of control, but not choosing the way he was shooting quite as intelligently. But on the season, close to 61% in the restricted area, which again, you want to be a little bit higher than that from center. And part of that, again, its verticality is an issue because you can't play above the rim. It's nice when you get the ball and you're just able to dunk it or really, or really, get your head above the rim for a layup. But he's scored about 54% outside of the restricted area in the paint. He's got a decent floater.

Mid-range, about 50%. That's a good mark for anyone. And in terms of three-point shooting. And again, mid-range and three, and his shot, the shooting from three hasn't really been on super high volume. But, hey, shooting upwards to 40%. I think about 42 and change on... Catch and shoot threes, which of course is always taking.

If Isaiah Stewart learns to take pull-up threes, great. But you need to balance, of course, his ability to stretch the floor with having him down on the paint for offensive rebounds. But whatever the case, yeah, it's been impressive to watch him develop over such a short time. And it's hardening. Of course, is he going to be worthwhile or is he going to be in position to ever attempt shots on volume. And that's the question.

A decent post game, too. I'd say that. And again, this keeps coming up, fairly low volume, but he's shooting close to 60% on hook shots. He bullied Milsap tonight, which is surprising to see. Not many guys are really able to bully Milsap in the pain.

He just put a shoulder into him from, he posted up, put a shoulder into him, and knocked Milsap back about three feet, and then just hooked it over him. So whatever the case, he's always fun to watch and yeah i think he'll be able to contribute going forward certainly and hopefully that's uh ever fungible percept you know perceptive uh ceiling whatever you want to call it turns out to be higher rather than lower all right number three killian hayes so hayes of course

missed most of the season with a laboral terror which seems to not have been as bad as it could have been a Toron Wayroom that requires surgical intervention is often a career-altering injury. Fortunately, he didn't need surgery. And he came back looking, well, to all Albert appearance is pretty much athletically how he did prior to the injury, which isn't necessarily a great thing. But I'll say, again, what I've said before about Killian. Yeah, you want to see your first, like, high pick in five years come out. and look really good.

But with Killian, I'll be concerned about him if he still looks like crap next season. There's always context to be put forward. I know I said this recently, but the guy came from really two tiers below the NBA in Euro Cup, which is below Euro League, a tier below Euro League. From a situation in which he was playing against much easier opposition as the undisputed center point of the team. and he was drafted, did not have an NBA offseason, thanks to COVID. No summer league, short preseason, no ability to train with the team prior to preseason,

which lasts for two weeks. And, yeah, it's just how it is. So, but it's been fun seeing him come back. The guy definitely has fantastic court vision. And, but, you know, I'll leave my more extensive opinions in the matter for, for, for, for, a little bit later. Tommy, I know you were pretty not low on him, but certainly not feeling too good about the level of responsibility he received early on in the season prior to his injury. Yeah, that was the big thing that I was kind of looking for when they brought him back.

I'm really happy that they chose to bring him off the bench. I was afraid that they were going to start him just for like five minutes at the start of every quarter or whatever, because for whatever reason, Casey felt like he was ready to be out there with the start. That was a head scratcher for me because one of the main I don't know what you want to call it draws or deficiencies

of Killian is that he's not the most athletic and he struggles to get penetration. So I don't know why you would put him up against starting level of defense. So I'm happy that they brought him off the bench. It seems like he did get a lot more comfortable, especially against OKC.

Yeah, let's be real. That was a horrible team. And it should be easier for him there. But I think they made the right call bringing him back off the bench, limited minutes. They didn't want to play him against Denver tonight because injury management, they said that was 100% medical decision. But I'm honestly happy that they didn't play him against that team because even their bench unit is pretty good.

So I just hope that they continue to give it to them slowly because they brought everybody else along slowly and that seems to have worked out really, really well. And I would like to just be patient with him because clearly throwing him straight into the fire did not work well for him. He forced shots. He looked uncomfortable out there. It seemed like he was really scared, honestly, to go right. Like he would defer back to his left hand pretty much immediately as soon as he got, as soon as he took contact. So I'm happy that they're kind of treating him like the 19-year-old. rookie that he is, not some instant professional because he was paid over in France. So I'm happy with what we've seen from him so far.

And the second thing is, yeah, his passing vision is just a joy to watch because that was his big thing that got his attention in the pre-draft process and that at least has transferred over. It still surprises me sometimes, like where he's looking and where the ball ends up a second later, it's just crazy to me. So at least he's brought that along with him. We hope that he continues to get more comfortable, adds to his handles in his bag, and is able to get more consistent penetration.

I'm not even worried about the shooting right now. I just want to see that because that has to happen at some point. So that's how I feel about Killian. About you, Dante? Yeah, I think I was definitely pretty encouraged after that OKC game because I don't know if you guys remember, but when we were talking about Killian's expectations coming back or what would we think, you know, are the, or the, what would we like to see, you know, as positives? I said that, you know what? Okay, 19 years old coming from a lower league, not a full off season.

I understand all those things, but at the end of the day, you're the seventh overall pick, like go out there and show us something. And, and against O. Casey, he absolutely did. I think that if you were to kind of extrapolate his performance out and you say, okay, what if he He was more of the focal point for more of the game and not like Corey Joseph. What if he play like 32, 33 minutes? I think you're probably looking at like a 14, 15 point double double, which to me is, you know, that's what you want to see out of them. Obviously, the core vision is just absolutely fabulous.

Like I've said this before, but there are times even watching on TV where he'll kind of drive and kick and contort his body to make a pass to someone that I didn't even know was open and I could see the whole court like from from a TV broadcast angle. So that that's an elite special level of court vision. But it's like you said, Tommy, the shot is going to have to eventually start falling because you're upside as a playmaker, not just as a passer, but as a playmaker is severely limited if you can't score. You need to be a scoring threat to kind of open up the defense to soften it to create opportunities for yourself and others. So if he becomes a consistent, even say like a pull-up mid-range threat, we're going to see a very, very different

player and someone who's highly effective with that level of vision and that level of passing. So I guess I'm not overly concerned. I'm honestly, after the OKC game, I was pretty happy with that performance. And I think he'll be just fine, honestly. I really do. I'm not ready to give them a free pass and just say, oh, just go out there and try not to get hurt again and do your best. No, like, I want to see him play well. And I have every confidence that he will for the remainder of the season. So I think things are looking up for Killian. That's me. Yeah, I mean, I think certain things about, well, let me put it this way when we did the pre-the draft previews, which wasn't really all that long ago. It was like six months ago, but it seems like a really

long time ago. How I felt about Killian's game was that he could be a top 10 point guard if he put, if he were to put everything together, but it was going to be necessary for him to put everything together. So shooting, of course, will be, shooting is vital for anybody. I mean, if you're a point guard who can't shoot, it doesn't matter if you're a great playmaker. In that case, you're Alfred Payton.

You know, and Alfred Payton is not taking any team anywhere. But when it comes to Hayes in particular, yeah, he's not the most athletic guy. He's cerebral enough, hopefully, that he can learn to compensate for that lack of athleticism. But really, if he becomes a very, you know, if he becomes a good shooter from three, then you have to close out on him. He can attack close outs. You have to play him closely. That makes it a lot easier for you to drive.

He had actually a very effective pull-up game in his final, in a year in Eurocut before he came to the pistons. That's a big weapon. If guys have to not only, not only is it a good tool to have, but if guys have to respect that, they have to play you closely.

That opens up driving lanes, you know, both that and from the three-point line. I mean, you can break down defenses more easily and really make use of that excellent passing, but also gets the basket. So, yeah, those would be big things. I mean, if he can consistently hit that step back three. I mean, that's huge. That means guys have to play you super close to the three point line,

and that gives you that much more space. So if he can put together his shooting and find ways to get to the basket, then great. You're a guy, you're a three-level scorer who's also an excellent passer, you know, with fantastic vision. But if the shooting doesn't develop, then he's probably going nowhere. I mean, that's really going to come. Of course, again, this is a young player. who's got space to develop. I'll be worried if he's not good next season, but you know, you don't give up on him even after two seasons.

So, you know, that's what in terms of skills, I think that that's what you're, what you're going to have to look at. And of course, even if you can shoot but he can't penetrate, that's also an issue.

You know, you have guys like Lonzo who are three and D point guards, but that's a very niche sort of role. and Wanzo most play shooting guard. And, you know, it's ideally for him next to a point guard who can penetrate and set other guys up. Because Wanzo is awful at penetrating. And he's almost historically bad at drawing it, again, the free throw line. So like I said, you can put everything together if he learns to be a guy who can shoot and who can drive.

And he's got that excellent vision. Then fantastic, you might have a top 10 point guard in your hands. I don't know if I don't think he really has an all-star ceiling. but that might be okay. And maybe, who knows, you get another really good point guard. You can conceivably play as a shooting guard because it seems like he can defend. He's a cerebral, just smart defender.

And he's fairly tall, and he's got a decent wing span on him. Now, the other thing is mentality. Hayes does not seem to be the most confident guy in the NBA right now. I mean, part of that is youth. Of course, some guys come in a little bit too confident. but a haze is on the opposite end of that spectrum. And I feel like he gets very discouraged when things don't go his way. You see the shoulders in the head slump and, in my purely conjectural opinion,

it seems like the guy's real hard on himself. And it's like, you know, take it easy. You're a rookie. Doesn't matter if your team loses this year. Just go out and do your thing. And even if that means failing, I mean, that's fine. You learn from that and you succeed. So, yeah, I think just to start, the biggest things, the ability to shoot and the ability to play through the bad breaks and not doing well.

But it's really been fun seeing him back in the lineup. Yeah. You know, Dante, you mentioned that he's playing a lot next to Corey Joseph. And Mike, you just said that he might be able to play the two. I think that is what they're kind of testing out right now. Even at the beginning of the year, they played him next to Dilan, and he was kind of playing an offball role at times. and I know that frustrated a lot of people because you want to see him get those passes, but if he can't penetrate, he's going to have a really tough time doing that.

So I think maybe they even see a more ideal role for him where he's able to use more of his skills as off ball. You know, if you end up with a guy like Cade or Suggs who really can penetrate, I think you can make the most of him because he'll, another primary ball handler will make opportunities for Killian. you draw maybe his defender away a little bit. Killing can get the jump on somebody driving into the paint instead of taking them straight off the dribble. That's a much better time for him because he's still going to get that penetration

and he's still going to be able to use his passive vision. And the other thing is I think he's a much... We've seen the percentage is it's still low volume and low sample size, but he's a much better, I think, catch and shoot three-pointer, three-point shooter than off the dribble, which, yeah, for him to reach a ceiling. he needs to be able to get that step back.

I'm not banking on it at this point. I don't know if he has the confidence for that or if it was just a fluke thing that he was able to pull off in Eurocup. But even if he can just be a good catch-and-shoot guy who can take people off the dribble when a lane is creative for him, he could play. I'm not bringing up Halliburton because of the draft. It's not that, but that is the exact role that Halliburton plays.

And he doesn't with Deer and Fox. and it works beautifully. So I think Killing can be that guy and still be very, very valuable. I would prefer that he actually, and I think he would do best as the guy who's actually initiating the offense. Of course, this is no longer the NBA

in which you have the point guard who's really just the guy who does the ball handling. I mean, those days are past. But I just, I don't think he's going to be able to ideally capitalize on his talent at shooting guard. Again, I really don't want to see him in that Wanzo sort of role.

I think that would, I think if that's what happens, then it is what it is. And you hope you have a good point guard to play next to him. I just think that would be a shame. And I really don't think that should be his full-time role. But, you know, in order to generate confidence in the short term, then sure. But I think, like, Tommy, I completely understand where you're coming from. But at the same time, and maybe Mike, this is kind of what you were getting at as well.

I think if a player's best attribute is their passing and their court vision, they're absolutely best served with the ball in their hands. I understand that if we were to get, you know, say, cades, Suggs, green, primary ball handlers are splitting the ball handling duties might be on the table. But at the moment, you know, based on who we have on the roster and what Killian is capable of right now, I just don't see him maximizing his talents off ball.

I think literally his best skill is a requisite of him being, you know, it's required that he's on the ball. So I think long term, ideally, he's a point guard. And then even if we were to land, like I said, one of those top three guards, then you figure out the fit after. But as for right now, yeah, I think he's a point guard. And I think his skill set is best suited to point guard.

Now whether he's able to round out his skills to become an effective player, that's another thing entirely. But at his ceiling, and I know, Mike, you said you didn't think he had an all-star ceiling. But if we call ceiling, let's say we define it as, you know, it's within the realm of conceivable reality that this, occurs if he maximizes his skills like his shooting um if his step back three becomes a somewhat even a somewhat viable tool with that level of vision with that level of passing and you're putting up let's say like 16 17 points and 12 13 assists like that to me has the potential to be an all

star now he's a long ways off from that but at his ceiling I think he could be um I know I went off on a tangent there but yeah I guess just to summarize I think you bring up a good point you bring up a good point because weaver comped him to to drogich who at his peak i guess you could call it was like he got he either got in or he almost got into the all-star game off like injury reserve but was playing at an all-star level yeah yeah he was a very good player and he's not the most athletic guy but all everything you guys just said it's contingent on him getting penetration and right now he is just really bad at that not calling him a bus don't get mad at me but he's really really bad at getting into the paint. And yeah, even though right now he looked a little bit better at it yesterday

or, yeah, yesterday against OKC. But if he can't do that, he can't make the most of his game. And that's why I'm saying, like, he's not going to be able to use any part of his game if he can't drive in a little bit and create something. So at that point, the best use of his talent is put him off ball, have somebody else create for him so that he can get an easier driving lane. And then he can make, yeah, he's going to get fewer possessions with it, and that's not good. But that might be, you know, a way to make some use of him. It's like 80% of his potential versus, well, if he can't get through this first hoop, which is getting into the pain, you can't make really much of anything with him

because he's not a good off the drivel shooter. And he has trouble going into the pain because he's such an easy guard. So yeah well if he can't score that's that's why I'm like we're looking for him to just learn to go right because that alone will just open up his game considerably because he won't be able to make anything like you said he needs to shoot but he won't be a point guard if he can't get into the paint at all I completely agree it's like I said if you can't score then all of this is a moot point right right and that's why there's a difference between being a passer and being a playmaker like I would say even right now at a very young age. age, I think Killian is a high, high, high level passer, maybe an elite passer, but he's not an elite playmaker, not even close, because you're not really playmaking if you're not a threat to score, right? I can agree with that. I totally get what you're saying. I completely agree. And I think we're almost kind of arguing the exact same thing, just maybe with slightly different solutions to the problem.

But we're going to have to see, we're going to have to see how it shakes out and to pretend that, you know, the draft or how the draft lottery goes is not critical to this discussion or the future of where Hayes is going to play is being disingenuous because nobody on this team, especially not Killian, is good enough to where we're going to change the draft plans around or who we might take. We just got to go best player available and then we'll figure it out later. I agree. Well, yeah, we'll talk about this more in our draft previews, I'm sure.

All right. Let's move on to Josh Jackson. So, yeah, Josh Jackson. join the person's a project player. I'll say about Josh Jackson, just prefacing anything more I'm going to say about the guy. Nobody, I'd be surprised really if anybody genuinely expected him to come on and do great with the course of the season.

The guy was a number four overall pick who was not cut. He was released by the Phoenix Suns after only two seasons. They didn't pick up his third year option. And first overall, excuse me, first round draft picks, you're guaranteed your first two years. And then you have options on your third and fourth seasons. So he was just let go. And he was picked up by the Grizzlies, played most of the season in the G League. And then was picked up by the Pistons for a relative pittance, about $9 million of the course of two years.

So part of it in Phoenix was just his behavior on and off the court. He seems to his men at his ways in that respect. in Memphis and in Detroit. When I'm talking behavior, I'm talking like actual behavioral problems. But basically the guy, the guy was a project from day one. And I've got,

I've got a fair amount to say about him that I believe for last among the three of us. But Tommy, I know you're a huge fan of Josh Jackson. You know, just can't get enough. So why don't you kick it all? Right. Yeah, I guess it's good that I'm going first because I really don't have much to say about him.

I don't pay too much attention to Josh Jackson because I really don't. I'm not encouraged by what I see. I don't think he's a long-term piece. I think he was brought in along with a lot of other guys who have kind of a similar makeup to their game in just the hopes that one of these guys pans out because you can get a guy like the Hamadu in Sviot trade was a perfect example of this like, Svi is a useful player. He spaces the floor.

But he has a significantly lower ceiling than a guy like Hamadu, who's super athletic. And if he gets his shot together, he's a fantastic player. So what Weaver did, I think, is bringing several of those guys, Josh Jackson being one of them, Hamadu, Seku, technically, his length, his athleticism. He's another one of those guys. And the hope is that one of these guys puts it together. And then you have the guy who you pay it. All three of these guys, like you got them for very little cost.

And it's just like buying more tickets to increase your odds of winning the lottery. It's not likely, but can't win if you don't play. And I don't like gambling. So I don't like that I just said that. But I think Josh was just brought in like, yeah, maybe he puts it together. Maybe Hamadu puts it together. Maybe Seku puts it together. You just hope that one of them gets it.

So I don't think that we're banking on him putting it together. I think it was just a nice story, cheap contract. Why not bring him in? Maybe he puts it together, and that's great for us. But I don't see that happening. I'm not too surprised that Josh Jackson has really struggled lately. He's taking a lot of bad shots, and I'm sure you guys have plenty to say about that. So don't you go take it away, Dante?

Um, well, you guys can stop me if I'm being too harsh because by all accounts, he, Josh's behavior problems or his attitude issues seem to be in the past. Like the guy was, was at malice at the palace as a kid. Like, what more can you ask for? Clearly likes Detroit, likes playing here. So it's tough to say anything bad about him, you know, as a person. So, but as a player, like, uh, I, I owned property on Josh Jackson Island earlier in the season. I have since sold that property at a loss because it has been a pretty ugly spiral

downwards. I think I can understand why like a 19 year old Josh Jackson would go top five in an NBA draft. I get it. He's very athletic. He's he's a pretty good finisher. He can get to his spots in and around the basket in the restricted area. Not terrible in that aspect, but man, he is a god-awful shooter his shot selection is so poor his basketball IQ is like i don't even know if i want to say his basketball IQ is appallingly low or if you know casey is enabling him to play in this manner but either way it's disturbing because there are times where he just forces up shots like he's playing my career on pro and it's the craziest thing i've ever seen in it and i just the arrival of Diallo to me has really kind of neutered any potential of Josh Jackson

sticking around for the future of this organization because Diallo's younger and he's better Diallo's a better player and so I just don't see the value in Josh and honestly I just am not having any fun watching him right now oh and last thing I'll say then I'll pass it on to mike because I know he's got a lot of thoughts on the matter you guys feel free to stop me if this is hyperbolic or you can disagree. Josh Jackson is the worst passer I have ever seen. He has to be the worst passer at the NBA level that I've ever seen.

Like it seems like two, three times a game. Just a brutal pass that was supposed to be routine. I don't even... Go ahead, Mike. Just go. Well, he's gotten himself, he's worked himself back up to one-to-one assist to turnover ratio. He's a back. passer. I mean, it was, it used to be that he just really didn't want to pass, but now he's just

bad, you know, he's just a more willing passer. He's just really bad at it. It is, I agree, his overall offensive IQ and it's good. It's not good. His core efficient is not good. His IQ just in terms of his shot selection, of course, is awful. All right, so here are the issues that Josh Jackson had in, you know, earlier on in his career. So a shot selection, horrible. I mean, He's always had that problem. And some of that, I imagine, was immaturity and just having a big head. But he's still got issues to shots election. He tries shots he shouldn't.

Like these fade away mid-range shots, he, when he wants to go to the basket, often, he just does it. Even if he's going to have to take a really low percentage shot, he's got tunnel vision. And, yeah, when he decides he's going to pass, he often makes best. one. So he's really just a poster child for high volume, low efficiency. He loves to shoot. He's not efficient at it. I know he's had some big games lately, but in general, I mean, it's often pointed to like his first, it was the first six or seven games before injury when he was, when he was playing pretty well. I mean, that came on the back of completely unsustainable shooting in the restricted area, like 73 percent, I think. So that wasn't going to look.

last. He's a bad perimeter shooter. That's a problem for anybody. Certainly a problem for him. Like on the season, he's at less than 30%, 29% from three. That's horrifically bad. I mean, you're getting close to Josh Smith levels there. Sorry to put it that way, but you are. Oh, no. Yeah, he's, in terms of efficiency on the season, 51% true shooting as really crappy. The guy, yeah, he's raw. I mean, he was project player. And so it would have been nice to see him succeed, but this was not, not of the question outcome.

I think he'll be given another season to do it. I agree that Diallo is going to take a big bite out of his minutes. I think there's a very little doubt about that. Unless Josh really picks it up. Like I know he had a huge game, you know, a couple games ago. But on the whole, he's been really bad lately. like he had a span of I'm looking at it right now he had a span of 11 games in which he shot at 35.6% from the field and 17% from three I mean so yeah the guy that sounds made up

yeah it doesn't even sound real yeah it was it was real bad I mean yeah it was bad as a as a free throw shooter, he's also been pretty bad. I mean, that just doesn't help things. But basically, I mean, he plays decent defense. He's not a world beater on defense by any means. I mean, he has the asset of being able to, he's like, he's a four position defender. He's not great at it. He's just not a liability.

But just because of his pen shot for chucking, when you put him on the floor, he's worse, you know, he's worse than his stats appear because he's often just taking away better shot opportunities from other players or hijacking the office. offense. So, and he also, as far as my own personal experience or what it's worth, he sticks out like a sore thumb on a team which Troy Weaver has constructed as a roster of guys who really look to play for the team. Yep. That's exactly. He's always looking for his own shot. Yeah. Totally agree. Yeah. And who knows, maybe he's got carte blanche from Casey to do that. But yeah, he's been for us. He must. He must. He must have pulled him that it's.

okay to just be like a cool-unquote flame thrower off the bench. Sorry to interrupt you, Mike, but you bring up an interesting point. Like, do we really think that Casey had nothing to do with that? Because I feel if anybody else played that way, they'd be benched. Like, I do. I don't know what you guys think, but that's what I think. Well, Casey has said that he, that Josh Jackson is the guy that he coaches the most. So it's not like Casey's not aware of what's going on. It's just, I don't know if they just really believe in his ceiling because of his athleticism. They think he can be, you know, more dynamic score than these guys who are really built to be role players, but it's just not working.

He's not good enough to play the Jeremy Grant role or the first option. He just doesn't have the efficiency, and that's paramount at that type of volume. So sorry, Mike's for, go back on. Sorry for railroading you, Mike. I just am very passionate on the topic. That's fair enough. Here's the thing I would say about Josh Jackson, which is, like, basically if the guy could become a good three-point shooter.

Just a guy who can open threes. And that would allow him to just attack closeouts. You run the floor in transition and you're a reliable defender. He'd have a career in the NBA long term. You guys like that are valuable. The highway athletic can hit threes, can attack closeouts, can run in transition, can play defense. It sounds like a long list. You know, but that's a valuable player.

But in the role he's playing right now, he's certainly not doing a good job being asked, great offense, and he can't shoot threes. He's just awful at it. And if he doesn't at least improve himself in the three-point line to become a reliable three-point shooter, I don't think he's going to last in the NBA, notwithstanding what remains, you know, a considerable amount of raw talent. So fortunately, when he goes out there and plays like, just plays terrible basketball, it's not a problem for the Pistons. It can be an asset for the Pistons. It's still irritating for me to watch just because he sticks out like a sort of them. All right.

So finally, Jeremy Grant, I don't have much to say about Grant. He's a guy who's certainly outperformed expectations and is the first option and primary creator on a team that doesn't really have much in the way of creators at all. He mostly plays well. He's struggled a fair amount lately. Actually, he's played pretty badly in overall. I'd say the last, I don't know, maybe three weeks. Couldn't really ask him more from the guy.

I think he's the second, maybe even a third option on a championship team. But, you know, he's been good for the pistons. Yeah, he's been, yeah, like I said, you can't really ask much more for him. You know, he does, but he can on offense. He plays hard on defense. He's an example setter. And ultimately a fairly talented tank commander. So that's all I have to say with the guy.

I think he's a great player. I think he's a great player. I'm glad he's here. And yeah, he hasn't performed exceptionally well. Really almost this whole past month, the efficiencies down. The points per game,

points per games are down. But he had a really good game tonight. And he didn't even play the whole fourth quarter, I don't think. But it was nice. They kept it close in the first quarter. I thought maybe we were looking at a revenge. game but you know it's he he seems like a good leader um he's a ton of fun to watch and

i'm just happy to have him here so not too too much to say about jeremy aside from the fact that yeah of course absolutely outperformed expectations and uh i i think second or third option on championship team is is probably an accurate assessment and i also i also think he's here for i wouldn't be surprised if he stuck around with the pistons longer than even the duration of his contract you know because he's here for more reasons than just basketball, right, if you pay attention to any of the stories that have been written about him. So I think he's here to stay, and I'm pretty happy about that. I'm not surprised that he's taking a little bit of a dip.

And honestly, I think it's, I'm not going to say a good thing, but it's because he was playing so well. I think now teams are starting to really learn more about him, game plan for him. He's clearly the first option. He's trying to be a very dynamic player. and I think with a legitimate first option next to him, and maybe that's the guy that we pick up in the draft,

taking some of the load off him, taking all these targets that are on him now, that would help him significantly. I'm not really worried about that right now. I don't think he's gotten worse. I think he's just a bigger priority now. This team has been gutted. They've traded away a lot of their spacing.

Jeremy likes to attack. Yeah, it's not surprising to me at all that he's down a little bit. I don't know that he's going to win MIP anymore, but he's certainly, like, not I don't know, about reinvented his game, but expanded his game and increased the volume really, really well for the role that he's being asked to play. Next year, when this team theoretically has more talent, I would expect him to up his efficiency again because he's clearly trying to be a guy who can do a lot for a team. And I think that's a good point. A lot of why he wanted to come here is because, yeah, you see, look at the shots that he's taking. He's not just taking threes and catching shoots. Like he's trying to create for himself off the dribble.

He's getting into the paint and kicking out. He's taking mid-range jumpers, which really not a lot of guys should be taking that shot on a team. But he's trying to do that right now at a time where wins don't matter as much. So, yeah, definitely take those shots right now, try to get good at it. because if you're a multi-level scoring threat, you can be a legitimate first or second option. I think Jeremy could be like the second best player on a championship team.

So I'm not concerned at all right now. I just think that a team with this little talent around their main guy, yeah, he's supposed to struggle a little bit right now. I'm not concerned about it. Right now it's just wait for this organization to put more talents around him and see if he can get back to what,

we know he can get to. Yeah, it's definitely life would be easier on him if he were playing as the second option, behind a talented creator. And yeah, the guy just gets beaten up right now, too. That shouldn't go unnoticed. He loves to try to get to the basket. The way he does it is by, you know, do a crossover or two and then drive in one direction, pick up the dribble, or excuse me,

stop dribbling, gather the ball. And then he's got, he'll lower his center of gravity, take some, you know, a couple of really long strides with those long legs of it as well, he gets the ball above his head. And then he'll either score or he'll get hit really hard. You know, generally, generally one of those two things happens. So, yeah, he's really, I don't doubt that this has taken a physical toll on him. it's also it's also a role to which he's very unaccustomed so but i don't think there's i don't think

there are many really criticisms to be leveled at the guy at all i think he is done as well as anybody really could have hoped so uh way to go jeremy all right so uh yeah it has actually gotten uh super late especially yeah about one a m eastern so it seems like a good time to call the episode. So as always, thank you all for listening. Hope you enjoyed the episode. We'll catch you next time.