Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 41: Frank Jackson’s impact, Killian Hayes’ return, and Saddiq Bey’s ceiling

Episode Date: May 1, 2021

This belatedly-posted episode discusses the emergence and future of Frank Jackson, the look of recent returnee Killian Hayes, and the continuing question of Saddiq Bey's ceiling.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Drive into the Basket back after a two-week hiatus. So we're recording this on the afternoon of the 24th, not long before tonight's game against a team whose name is currently evading me. Another of you guys remember who we're playing tonight. Pacer's right. That aside, we're just going to launch straight into a discussion. This episode is, again, largely, just much like our last one, but two. two weeks later. So we got some more information, particularly on Killian Hayes, who's been back in the lineup for some time at this stage. I'd be talking mostly about the team's young players. Of course, the team is blessedly at this stage, and the rotation is very largely composed of young players. You know, of course, you've got the veterans like, you know, of course Jeremy

Grant and Mason Plumley, and last but not least, the much beloved, especially by Dante, Corey Joseph. So, first one we're going to talk about, actually. we're not going to talk about Cory Joseph, but just to make that clear. First one we're going to speak about is Frank Jackson. It's a player we've yet to discuss in this podcast, but who has been playing surprisingly well lately. Now, Frank Jackson is on a two-way contract along with Saban Lee. For those unfamiliar, two-way contract basically means that you can only, that you're paid only, I think, $50,000 against the cap. teams have 15 common roster spots for standard NBA contracts and then two two-way spots.

So yeah, you're only paid about $50,000 against the cap. Teams can upgrade a two-way contract to a standard NBA contract at any time. You have base route amounts to restricted free agent rights at the end of the season for any two-way player. And generally, you can only play a certain number of games per season, I believe it was 60 this season. Correct me from wrong. It's 50 games. 50 games, okay. It used to be like 45 days with the team.

Now it's 50 games. But I think even that requirement, the 50 game limit, I believe, has been relaxed for this season. So, all right. So Frank Jackson, has basically built himself into, or excuse me, worked his way into becoming the shooting guard for the second unit. And it's been playing quite well of late over his last eight games, looking at 49% from the field, 36 from 3, 13 and a half points per game. Not the greatest passer by any means.

He's more of just kind of an undersized shooting guard and is not the greatest defensively. The last time the Pistons played the Nets. Hardin just spent basically the entire second half switching onto him deliberately and then burning him. That's James Hardin, but the fact remains. In any event, he's been a positive presence lately and it seems poised to play himself into the team's future. So, Tommy, what do you think about Frank Jax? Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that the passing wasn't very good because in the beginning, yeah, they played him at point guard, just wasn't the right fit for him.

Once they put him in shooting guard, he just played to his strengths, and now he's established himself as a rotation player pretty firmly. And I didn't expect that because he looked rough early on, but now he's very stable. He's shooting the ball very well from distance. And, I mean, if you're trying to contend, you can't have too much space. So I agree. I think he might have worked his way into the future of this team,

and especially the fact that he's only 22. That's, I was a lot younger than I realized. So he fits the timeline of the team very well. And I would offer him a multi-year contract. I don't know about you guys, but I would feel comfortable giving him like $6 million a year for three years. What about you guys? Well, I guess I'll start off by saying that I knew Frank Jackson prior to this tenure

as he was always the random free agent that would like end up at the end of your team on 2K. and he was like the 21-year-old 70 overall, and out of nowhere in two years, he's like an 85 overall. And he's kind of following that trajectory in real life. That's pretty cool because he's really turned it on lately after you guys said it was not a pretty start. And you're absolutely right, Tommy, point guard, not his position. He's clearly best as like kind of that undersized sniping, shooting guard.

And he's really embraced that role. And he's been succeeding in it. And he's done so for an extended period of time. So given the fact that he's so young, given the fact that I think we're starting to see him and Killian develop a good amount of trust as well as really all the facilitators on the team seem to feel exceedingly comfortable dishing it out to Frank wherever he is and he just fires it up and more often than not it's it's going in so given his chemistry with the team his age and his what appears to be pretty good potential as a as a shooter I would feel comfortable

I don't know where I would assign the dollar amount but I would feel comfortable extending him a contract for sure. And yeah, I could see him being a long-term part of the team, especially off the bench. So I'm pretty happy with his emergence, and I think it's going to suit the team well moving forward. Yeah, I'm confident at this point or comfortable enough declaring that his play of late doesn't appear to be a flash in the pan because not only is he been shooting pretty, he's shooting well from the perimeter.

And he's actually up to about 40% in the season. But he's been effectively attacking the basket. He's very shifty. he's not the most explosive player, though he's no slouch in terms of his ability to accelerate. And he's quite quick once he gets up to full speed, which doesn't take him too long. He's also very shifty. And I realize that he's six foot three, but you're looking at him on an NBA court. He's like if you figure you're playing street basketball,

and there's the little guy who isn't strong or isn't super explosive. but he just seems really slippery, and it's tough to stay in front of him. It just bounces from side to side really quickly when he's heading toward the basket. And Frank Jackson's good at that. I mean, he's very good at keeping the dribble up, and he's really quick while dribbling, and he's really good at his lateral movement on the dribble is very good. So he uses that to get in between or around defenders, and then he's got pretty good bounce off of one, just off of one leg.

So he can get high enough to get off either layup or a runner, which he's pretty darn good at scoring. And in transition, he runs the four very well, and he can generally score fairly well through it. At full speed, he can score well through contact. And he's showing also some chops. As far as perimeter shooting, it's not just spot-up shooting. He's showing some chops as a motion three-point shooter.

And those will always be valuable. So I think he projects pretty well And if he manages to keep up his play for the rest of the season I think he's the guy kind of guy For this team you take a multi-year flyer on at a reasonable salary So yeah I'd feel okay if the Pistons were to offer him something like a two plus one for five or six million dollars That's I think that's that's a more than acceptable risk Like I said I mean he's the guys that I don't think the guy will project that is as anything for

than a bench, you know, bench shooting guard, and that's perfectly fine. You know, he's, he's got a limited niche in that the guy's never going to play up the small forward. And he's, and he's not suited to play, to lead in the offense by any means. And he's just not going to get faster. No, he's certainly not going to be playing up any positions or kind of extending beyond the scope of his current role. But fortunately for us, that's the exact type of role that, you know, a contending team is going to eventually need, right? Is that reliable kind of flame to go off the bench that facilitators can trust, right? And so that's all you do. You can ask of them, for sure.

Yeah, I mean, the thing is, yeah, he doesn't need to be an on-ball player either. I mean, he can be an all-ball player, but he primarily does his work. His work is an off-ball initiator or a shooter. So he, yeah, it's the only limitation there. It's like I said, he's position locked, which is an ideal. And he's not a great defender, but if you're paying a guy for $5, $6 million to just score points off the bench, you don't really care about that. Yeah, so you got any further thoughts, Tommy?

No, I don't think there's too much more to add with him. He's playing his role well. I didn't expect that at all. I thought he was going to be that guy who just comes off the bench once at the end of games. I thought he was going to be closer to Devitis Servitas than what he is right now. That's all I'll say. Oh, Dave, Vita Servetus. I got some playing time recently.

I mean, we'd love to talk more about Dave, as he's colloquially called. but especially as he is the kind of you know meme favorite player of a big fan of the podcast you know who you are you know this guy is a very dedicated fan actually went out and got a a servetus jersey custom man really custom made yeah i mean all the you know i got i got nothing but respect for uh for that level of fan but there's also the dude at the arena you know who uh you know holds up the i love servitas sign or whatever it is yeah no the jersey is certainly a bold choice, especially considering the new provisions to the CBA, that state that Servitas can't actually play more than five minutes a game to keep up with

parity in the NBA. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, shout out. You know who you are. Thanks for, thanks for supporting the podcast and for being such a good presence on Pistons Discord. All right. Moving on to Killian Hayes, who has, of course, course made his return not so long ago and has been playing a pretty significant role of

late. It's the distance happened in playing him in back-to-backs because he is still in his, he is not far removed from a return from an injury, which, you know, which very fortunately was not worse than it was. And hopefully that holds up because an actual, like a torn to laborum that requires surgical intervention can be a career destroying injury. And it appears this was not a significant tear, and it did not require surgery. And the idea is, I mean, generally, as I understand it, when it can require surgery in the future is if players play on it, then just the pain is too bad, and you do have to operate on it,

and then it becomes, you know, once you operate on that, that's bad situation. So hopefully that doesn't turn out to be the case with Killian. Whatever the case, yeah, he's been back, and we've gotten to see him play quite a bit. That's been fun, some good, some bad. Dante, what's been your take on what you've seen from Killian since he's come back? My take is a very optimistic one.

So I, ever since Killian's been back, he's continued to impress me. And it hasn't been these ginormous peaks that maybe we were hoping to see out of them when the season began. But given how the season started and then the injury, you can kind of scale back these expectations. And then based on those more, I guess you could call it reasoned expectations, he's really, really impressed me. I think it's safe to say, I don't mind making this statement, but I think he's passing his elite, like elite as in amongst the best in the NBA level. He's had some kind of bad looking turnovers, but I attribute that to, you know, the best passers in NBA history.

They turn the ball over a lot and they do so because they're constantly trying new and different ways to make passes and they're pushing the boundaries and testing out what they can and can't do. And, you know, Killion, you see him making these bowling balls. like slider baseball pitch passes full across the court and it's absolutely gorgeous. It's a pleasure to watch. So I'm enjoying watching him as a passer and then his ball handling I think is improved significantly from the start of the season. He doesn't appear to be uncomfortable. He doesn't, he still is left hand dominant very clearly, but he doesn't seem to be, you know, nursing that left

hand and absolutely only using it. And then as far as scoring is concerned, yeah, he's not scoring quite at the rate that we need him to to be a fully effective player. But he's clearly getting more and more comfortable in that regard. And I think he's found his shot. I like to call this the baseline shot where if you can establish this, you can start to expand your offensive game out. And his baseline shot is basically he gets a running start. He catches quite a bit of air.

Like he gets up pretty high. And he kind of lefty hook lays it up over the defender. That's falling with some generally good frequency, I would say. So overall, he's rounding into a. pretty good player and I think the upside is enormous and and I can see the upside very clearly. And he appears to be getting better and better every game. And one thing that I really like, and then I'll pass it off to you guys, this most recent game, I saw people on Twitter, people in the subreddit saying that they didn't feel that he performed particularly well.

I think he was like three or four for 11 or 12 from the field. But I don't mind that at all. I'd like Killian to shoot and I'd like him to shoot from a variety of plays. places on the floor and in a variety of ways because just like his passing, which I previously mentioned, you're not going to feel fully comfortable as a score unless you start finding those spots on the floor where you can hit from consistently and you're experimenting and you're finding your groove. So I would like to give him full reign of the offense, or at least the offensive initiating for the remainder of the season and see how he can progress. But overall, I'm very optimistic. So what do you guys think? I've been really happy with him.

I think he's a lot closer now to what we expected him to be going into the season. And when he started, it was just really rough. And they felt like part of me, the game was just way too fast for him. It seemed like he was really struggling with the physicality, the size, the speed of the players he was going in. So when we got news that he was coming back, I had said, I hope they bring him off the bench and they have. And it seems to have worked really, really well for him because the game seems to have slowed down considerably. He looks way, way more comfortable now, making these crazy paths. he's not just a good passer. I agree.

Some of these passes that he makes, like I get excited, like the way I would get excited about a really good dunk. They're just beautiful passes, and the vision is just insane, and that's incredibly valuable because that's just hard to defend. And then, yeah, I didn't expect him to be a very good shooter coming in, but I didn't expect him to have this floater that you mentioned kind of in between because that's a very difficult shot to make. And the ones that he's making off the high glass are just,

that's a really, really tough shot. And when he gets it off with his left hand, he looks very comfortable doing it. And when he goes up for it, it looks like it's not going to go in because it's just such a difficult shot for a guy who's not, you know, proving himself to be a good shooter. But it goes in. He's developing a nice two-way game with, or two-man game with Isaiah Stewart. He's using screens. And when he gets that pick and rule, when he gets that screen from Stewart, he's more comfortable going right. So he's expanding his game.

That's very encouraging to me. He's a lot closer definitely than I expected him to be. And coming off the bench seems to have really, really helped him. The three-point shooting still isn't there, but we can talk more about that later. There was an interesting tweet, but I want to hear what you have to say first, Mike. I certainly agree about the three-point shooting. Well, I agree with a lot of things that you guys have said. It's worth remembering, first and foremost, with any rookie.

I mean, we've seen Sadiq Bay have success. We've seen Isaiah Stewart have success. We've seen a little bit from Saban Lee, who's clearly, I think we could say, just not ready for the NBA right now. But that doesn't matter. Most rookies, I mean, the very substantial portion of rookies, even first round rookies, do not contribute positively in their first seasons. You know, some do. But the majority of rookies are negative value players in their first seasons in the NBA. And that's just how it is.

I mean, the transition of the NBA is difficult for anybody. If you're playing in the NCAA, even if you're playing in the EuroLeague, which is second best league in the world, the NBA is still a very large leap from any of those leagues. So acclamation can take time and just finding your way and just developing. I mean, your average player comes into the draft is still very young. When you bring in players who are 22 years old, it's a bit different. You kind of know what you're going to get out of them.

and you may or may not really probably not going to see much more further developments. And those players tend to be more NBA ready immediately, lower ceiling, but higher for some sort of skill. Mostly is usually shooting. But your players are coming in like age 19 or age 20. I mean, these are players are selected largely on upside and they have a lot of development left to go. So Killian is, I know I'm repeating what I've said several times. Killian came from the Eurole... Excuse me.

What is it, Euro Cup? I think. Yep. German BBM. So that's a level below the Euro League. The Euro League being the one from which Luca Donchich came. I mean, Luca, that's completely irrelevant to the Pistons. But it's worth noting for Luca.

I mean, you think he's good now? And absolutely, I mean, if you look back, this was a kid who was the MVP of the the second best basketball league in the world at age 19. So twice over MVP, actually, I think. Like MVP of the regular season in Spain and then MVP of the Euro League tournament. Whatever the case, Hayes started in Euro Cup, which is below that. He was playing against much easier competition. And just there was a world of difference between that in the NBA.

So it's, I think the potential is there. It's going to take time. And that's fine. He's playing for a team, which has that time and doesn't. It's perfectly fine if he goes out there and makes mistakes. So as far as how we've seen him play in no particular order. I mean, I like him. I think Killian can, if he brings everything together, I've said this, and I'll continue to say it,

I think he can be a very good point guard. Like maybe somewhere on the low end of the top 10. You know, maybe really if he brings, like really, really brings everything together, I think he's got all-star potential. I don't think he's going to be like a superstar point card. But honestly, if you get like the eighth best point card on the league, then, you know, congratulations. Like genuinely congratulations.

You know, you've... Absolutely. Yeah, that's fantastic and good for you, you know, for any team. I don't care. I mean, if you're drafting number one overall, then it's different story. But if Killing ends up being the eighth best point card in the league, it's like people should be thrilled. In any events,

So left-hand dominance is still there. I mean, he's extremely left-hand dominant. He had some talk on draft night about, oh, no, I'm firing passes with my right hand now. And it's like, well, sure, you're doing that. There's a different story in the NBA when you're going up against the best defenders in the world. So very left-hand dominant still. It doesn't like to drive right. He will, but I think the game against the – wasn't the Mavericks.

It was the game against the – whatever, the left. game. My memory is seriously failing me today. Who did the Pistons play most recently? This was like two nights ago. Oh, the Spurs. Exactly. Thank you. Yeah. My memory is absolutely failing me at the moment. So I think he tried once to finish with his hand against the Spurs. And I think that was the first time he's tried to finish with his right hands, period. So he tends to really wants to still go left. And that's something he'll have a real actual NBA off season to work on. I think it's the thing that would have been different.

Oh, yeah, I also forgot to mention this. You know, not only is he a rookie, he was coming with a very different situation. He had no NBA off. He had no first NBA off season. Like, it should not be understated that no rookie had an NBA off season. So, yeah, he just, like, Silla, he's only really willing to finish with his left hand, which of course needs to change. He needs to be able to drive right.

He needs to be able to finish with his right hands. I mean, that's just going to be a necessity. Otherwise, he's much easier to defend. It needs to be able to be able to. pass with his right hand too. Often, even when he's dropping the ball off to his right, he'll use his left hand to do it. Or even when he's passing to the left, like hard of the left, he'll flick it to his left hand first. So it needs to work on that. The shooting, of course, needs to be there. He needs to be able to play off ball, even if he's just spot up shooting. The idea is hopefully that he can be a motion, be a motion

three-point shooter. And, you know, he showed some ability as a step back, three-point. shooter in in Europe that's nice he actually was a it was a good pull-up mid-range shooter in Europe that's very nice a player and of course his court vision is fantastic and and his passing with his left hand is fantastic and that's great he's got like I don't like to I don't think it's an I need to make this comparison I don't think he's a mellow level passer but he's close so what's he just a player that I'll compare him to briefly, and there are differences here, that there are some similarities is Blue Canard, just in the way of what Killian can do that will make him very difficult to defend.

Now, Canard has some, has some disadvantages that are just going to be there always, and one of those is just this very poor wingspan. Another, he's not laterally quick. Those are both things that are downsides, but the thing about Hayes, he's not super athletic. He's unlikely to get to a point where he's just going to beat somebody with a reliably beat guys, you know, unless they're much slower, like sort of slow centers who don't really exist in the MD anymore. Off the, just purely off the dribble, he's probably going to rely a lot in the pick and

roll for his entire career. But if he can develop certain skills, then he'll be able to get to the basket. It'll be very difficult to defend. And that's really where his passing will come, will particularly be able to come into play. And Kinnarb is the case as well. So, Kenard, of course, he's a very good three-point shooter, and that helps. of course that's a fantastic skill and he can shoot them off the move. But as a pick and roll player, he was quite effective with the Pissons in his last season in

Detroit as well, even though he was not going to get in the basket because again, crocodile arms, sorry, put it that way, short arms are not helpful when you're trying to score it the basket. I mean, they're a big disadvantage. And also, he's just not that explosive at all, like not at all. And so getting in the basket was difficult. But the reason he was effective on the pick and roll, you come around a pick, and he's an elite mid-range shooter. And it's like, okay, well, I come around this pick and you have to defend me very closely right away. Or I'm just going to stop and shoot. And if you give me an uncontested

shot, there's a good point. There's a good chance I'm going to make it. That's going to be an efficient shot. So now you have to cover me closely. And that means something opens up for somebody else. So if Killian has that pull up mid-range, then great, he becomes a lot more difficult to cover. And it's a lot. And he's a much better pass than Gernard. There's no slouch, but he's not great. He's good. But killing could do much better. So if you've got that, if you've got that, but first you have to have the three point shot. You know, if people know you can't shoot the three, they can just go under any screen. It's just like with Westbrook, you go under any screen and then you're a lot less useful on the pick and roll. So you have to be a threat there. If you're a threat to just get the ball

and shoot it, then cool. Nobody can go under a screen on you. And they have to cover you with the three point line after you go around the pick. And that opens up somebody else. So if you've got that, And great. So you've got the mid-range pull-up greats. With the mid-range pull-up, it opens it up for somebody else. But also, you've got a defender who has to cover you slowly. And you can use a move to get around him. And then it's much easier for you to score the basket.

And, you know, if you manage to get around that guy, then, you know, then somebody really needs to come and cover you. And then great, somebody can cut or the roll man gets the basket. And they have a very, very easy shot at getting a virtually uncontestable gun to the basket. And the thing with Hayes, you'll find anybody on the floor. he needs to be able to hit them with his right hands, but he'll find anybody on the floor, and that's a big asset. So if he can do all of those things, then fantastic, you've got, like, you know, like maybe not a top 10, but you've got like, it's certainly top 15 point guard who can be a very able initiator. And play off the ball.

Now, if he can, you know, who knows? Maybe like, maybe, again, lower in top 10 possibly. Now, if you can add the step back three to that, then now you have the potential to be an elite offensive creator. Step back three also means that somebody, people basically need to. face cover you with the 3.1, and that's a tremendous asset. And, uh, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, we really require him bringing everything together. He needs to be able to pass with this right. He needs to be able to shoot three. So we can do both of those things, then great,

he can be an effective point. Yeah. Thus, thus, thus endeth my, uh, my, my, my, my, my, long analysis here, but, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, thus far, uh, also a fair defender has good instinct. He's long, relatively long. I think his wing span is about like six eight, six nine. And he, but as far as what we've seen,

yeah, he's rusty, the shot's not, he's not ready, basically. There's not, he's not ready. He's still raw. The shot's not there,

whether from the three point line or, you know, even as a pull-up shooter, he really hasn't been great. Yeah, he's got a nice floater. When he manages to curl around, he's quick on the curl, and he can curl around the player in the paints

and yeah, then just loft it high off the backboard. And then, you know, and usually hit the shot. And that's a good sign. His passing has been, his vision is really something else. And he's an accurate, very accurate passer with his left hand. He'll find the open man. And, yeah, the two-man game with Stewart has been nice. I mean, Stewart's not easy to love the ball to because he doesn't jump very high.

But Killain can get it there with his left hand. I see him having a nice, two-man game with Sadiq Bay in the future. Bay is good at getting open and get his shut off quickly. So, yeah, I'm enjoying it. He's raw and we can be honest with ourselves. And I don't want to, I don't want to put that arrogantly. But certainly, I don't think any of us would disagree. He's been a negative value player. And that's fine. I mean, the guy is not just based on his efficiency and his limitations. He has not been a positive value player for the business for the most part. Not for the most part. There are a few games here and there where I feel he contributed pretty

significantly to performance. But I just I guess to kind of round this out, Mike, obviously I agree with everything you've said. But you know, you mentioned his rawness. And yeah, he's totally, he's a totally raw player. But I think that's almost, you know, that's another sign of encouragement is that you can see how raw he is. And yet he's demonstrating the skills that he has demonstrated at a very high level. So, you know, you mentioned that he's not quite as good of a passer as Lamello, but he's, he's almost there. And let's, Lamello ball is one of the greatest passers on the planet. He's otherworldly.

And the fact that Killian's as raw as he is, you know, as young as he is and he's, and he's, you know, relatively close to that level, you can only imagine it'll probably get even marginally better. He'll be one of the best pastors on the planet too. And then, yeah, if the scoring improves, if the ball handling improves with the right hand, I think we have the makings of a very, very good player who, if he puts it all together, yeah, he's probably going to be a top 10 point guard. if he puts it all together.

And at the seventh pick, you know, that's exceptional value. That's good for anybody. But just to cap off what I was saying about him being a negative value player, I mean, my point is that it, my point is that it's the case, but it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. It's, like I said, it's the case for most rookies. And the Pistons are in perfect position for it not to matter at all. This is certainly what's different between now and during the, you know, frenzied,

got to make the playoffs. Hell yeah, baby. playoffs here we come maybe well probably not because we're going to flunk in the regular season again era and because back then of course there is no time for rookies to just be rookies and and have their typical blemishes and warts and work through those so it doesn't matter at all that he's doing badly and it's just it's it's fun to see the potential that he has that he has displayed and i've said it before i'll be concerned if he's still if he's still bad at the end of next season that's when I'll be a little bit concerned, but even then, you know, whatever, he still has time.

So, yeah, it's been fun to watch. Tommy, you got anything to add about Killian Hayes? Yeah, for the most part, I'm just throw with the progress we've seen from him because that was the biggest thing to me. I didn't expect him to be good, but compare, like, where he was at the beginning of the season and then, or like, even just pre-injury to now. he's much closer to looking like an NBA player than he did before. So he doesn't have to maintain this current rate of improvement, but just the fact that he's shown what he's shown is just very encouraging. And I can see him having a role on the team now.

Yeah, for sure. And I think that, well, I was going to talk about how I think he was done a real disservice with people along whom he was playing in. early in the season before his injury, but I really don't want to think back to that time, not because of Killian, just because I just, this feels like just an entirely new era now with Blake Griffin gone and Derek Rose as well. Rose was different, but still not a guy who's ideal for rebuilding team because his strategy was, give me the ball, set a pick, and I'm going to try to score on my own.

So, all right, let us move on to Sadiq Bay. So we've got Sadieq Bay super fan Dante here. I'm rubbing my hands together. And yeah, why don't you take it away with your thoughts? Oh, where should I begin? Okay. I'll put it this way.

I don't know if Sadiq Bay is ever going to be an all-star, make an all-star game. But what I would say is that from what we've seen, considering his evolution from where he started the season to where he is now, I think signs point to the fact that he has all the tools and he has the potential to become an all-star level player. So let me lay on my case. So probably the primary reason that I think he could reach that level is because I think the guy is just a scorer. And I've said that before, but I'm consistently game after game. I'm so impressed with the way that he's able to score not just spot up three point shooting,

but in a variety of ways. he's demonstrating some acumen handling the ball, creating his own space. He's got that nice kind of jumping sidestep that he does to create space outside the arc. It's almost like a step back, but it's to the side or a sidestep, I guess you could call it. It's pretty cool. And then this last game, after the whistle, he like jumped up and threw down this incredible posterizing dunk, I thought was crazy. So he's clearly got a little more athleticism than we give him credit for. And I just can't help but think that a, well, I guess he's not 21 anymore.

He just turned 22, but a 22 year old who's in the middle of a or towards the end of a shortened first season in the NBA is demonstrating this level of scoring acumen. I don't think that's normal. You know, I don't think that rookies come in and do things like this. And it's like you said, Mike, most rookies are, let's face it, their negative value players on the court. And Sadiq is a player who I firmly believe any team in the. the NBA could toss them into their rotation and give him consistent minutes and they would be a better team because of it. He's a really good player at this stage already. So I just think that there's an inherent bias when it comes to players who are viewed as, and I'm doing air quotes with my fingers,

but pro ready, right? Because we think they're a finished product. We think they have a low ceiling. And we think that they're very unlikely to kind of deviate from what they already are. But in Sadiq Bay's case, I think if you were to do a redraft, he would go much higher. And that's because I think he's surprised people. And even though he's a little bit older for a rookie, I don't see any reason that he can't improve after NBA level competition and NBA level coaching and NBA level training and conditioning. I just don't see a reason why he can't get better than he already is. And kind of the last thing I'll say, and Tommy and I were talking about this briefly before we started recording, but you sort of notice with young players peaks and valleys, right, but it's mostly valleys,

maybe a few peaks. And Sekudumboa, a great example. He had 24 points against the Celtics. that career high game. He looked awesome. And that was a peak. And then it was mostly valleys from there, whereas Sadiq has got some valleys, you know, he'll put up duds here and there. But it's mostly peaks. Like most games, he's performing at an exceptional level relative to where he was chosen and relative to the fact that he's a first year player. So to me, that kind of indicates that his baseline level of performance is more towards that peak. And from there, I think you have room to grow. So I know you guys, it's well documented. This is our longest running debate ever since that I've been a host on this show is that you guys don't really see the All-Star upside and I do.

But every single game I watch him just absolutely scorch the other team. I just can't help but feel that the guy is, he's just a scorer. That's all I can say. He's just a scorer with a lot of tools at his disposal and he seems to be developing those tools. So that's my case. I will rest it. And I'll stop, I've been rubbing my hands vigorously this entire time. I'm going to stop doing that as well. I know we talk about this because, I don't know, maybe we're just jaded because the Pistons haven't had good rookies in a long time. But when I look at Sadiq and I try to think about what his ceiling would be, the burst is probably the biggest thing to me. And he doesn't have the greatest vert. Like, I know you just said that he had a nice poster. But he did. He, yeah, he's just not that

jump out of the gym athlete. And you got to think. think about the guys, the wings that are making the All-Star game right now. Like, even Jeremy Grant did him make it this year. He had some votes, I believe. But it's just a big jump to go from, like, from bad to good is one thing. But from good to great, it's just something completely different. Like, these, those guys are just fantastic. And it's not that I don't think Sadiq can ever get there.

But there are just different expectations for an All-Star player. I think he has raised my perceived ceiling of him as he's added more, actually inside the arc. He's adding some of these post moves, where he's going into the paint, backing his way in, and then using footwork to score. That's something new, and that's really exciting. And it makes me wonder, like, what else can he add realistically? So I'm not there as far as All-Star or Star player yet. I think he's established himself as a guy who can have a ceiling that's higher than a role player, but something in between. And that's where I'm at with him now. I'm happy that you mentioned the peaks and valleys because, yeah, he has put up some duds,

but the good games that he has where he's on, they're just fantastic. Like, he's just, he's in the zone and it's so much fun to watch him. And I've appreciated watching Sadiq Bay play because we need wing scoring. You know, it's very important to have those guys who will space the floor and make it easier for the dynamic scores who are, you know, either shooting on the perimeter or trying to get inside. So a guy like Sadiek, absolutely valuable player. I'd like to see him get more shots and that will be up to Dwayne Casey to create those opportunities for him. Because when you have a guy who can knock down shots like that, even if he's not the best like leaning shooter, it's something that you really want to take advantage of. Yeah, I think the question about Sadiq, I mean, there are some things about some

positive qualities about him that are unquestionable, his ability as a shooter, his work ethic, his maturity and just the way that he approaches the game. I mean, I think those are all really irrevocable and just immutable positives, rather. The question, as far as the ceiling is concerned, is one of agency. Now, of course, the ability to create offense and the NBA off the dribble is very valuable. Most guys can't do it effectively. And whether or not you can do so is really going to determine your offensive ceiling in the league. The defensive ceiling is a different matter. I think Sadiek Bay will be a good defender.

I don't think he's going to be like an offensive, like an all-defense sort of player. Above average, certainly, maybe like a 75th percentile guy, and that's great. He's smart. He moves his feet well, and he's smart. I'll say it again. It does, you know, uses his hands well also, is he's very good at stripping the ball. Like, you know, he knows what to do, put it this way. Zion came right out of him earlier in the season.

and he just stripped the ball away from him. I mean, a lot of guys would have just either tried to get out of the way or would have just followed him. So just having the presence of mind to do stuff like that. You see it pretty often with the guys he knows. He's just not going to be able to stop whether because of who they are or because of the situation he's in. He knows the right decision to make and most guys don't.

But looking at offensive ceiling, I think he'll grow to be a good, a decent three pull-up three-point shooter, which pull up means, you know, non-catch and shoot. I think he'll be able to do that. Maybe he'll become a good motion three-point shooter in general around screens and whatnot, and that's great. The question is, what agency does he have on offense? Because his first step is just his explosiveness and his half-court foot speed is not good.

It's just, it's, that's just been known. That's the case. That's an immutable quality for him. You can't train athletic ceiling to be higher. That's just is what it is. And that's why he went number 19. I mean, of course, people didn't think. he'd be this effective in the NBA already. He is a positive value rookie, like, without question.

And I doubt any team, you know, the teams that pick between like 10 and 18 are probably a little upset with themselves for the most part, not all of them. But he, the question was about his ceiling and that question centered around his athleticism in terms again, and just in terms of foot speed and particularly explosiveness, because he struggled to be people in the NCAA. He would just generally go and post up and use his superior size and strength to, you know, to score on them instead. So if you just, if you look at the ranks at the NBA's like even like notably above average scores, outside of center. And at center, it's only guys like, like Yokic and Vujavich, you don't see anybody outside of Lori Markinen. I just looked at the top 75 recently.

And you don't see anybody outside of Boring Markin in the top 75 right now who has Sadiq's athletic limitations. And Lorry Markin, of course, is who he is. He is a player really largely just depends on three-point shooting and some post-office and whatnot. And isn't really an elite shooter by any means. I saw some very unfavorable comparisons to Andrei Bargiani. That's not a good thing. That's not a here nor there with respect to Sadiq. It's just that that explosiveness and the ability to actually at our time,

attack one-on-one or to be able to explosively cut to the basket, just explosively attack lanes. That is a very important ability to have, both just in terms of agency and creating your own shots, drawing defenders quickly. Like Sadiq, if he grabs the ball to three-point line and has a relatively open lane to the basket, it's probably not going to draw two defenders. He's probably just going to draw one because he's not going to get there all that quickly. It's just a little things like this, that it's just the reduced agency that I think, I think Will will keep him, that's going to be his primary limitation. He's done a decent job of developing some ways of attacking off the dribble, especially attacking

closeouts. He's strong. That helps, especially when it comes to scoring through contact. But I think for the most part, he's just going to be a complimentary score, and that's fine. I mean, I think that Sadiq Bay, who shoots threes at a high percentage and scores like 15 points per game is, that's great. I think he's, and just with the intangibles he brings, I think that's great. I just, I think that that athletic ceiling is going to limit him.

And I think that, I think it should be considered him and looking at him right now, that he did come up with a high floor as one of the, as, as, as, as, as, as, as a cerebral defender and just a, uh, a high IQ overall player who is one of the best shooters in the country. So, but, you know, if he can be the fourth best guy in a championship team, then I think everybody should be happy. So those are my thoughts about Sadeek. I just, I don't, I don't see what could give him that personally what could give him, uh, a really high ceiling, given his athletic limitations. The Afro might be able to give him that ceiling, but that's, you know, we'll save that for another. Yeah.

It's good, it's good looking hair, sure. It is. It is, yeah. You know, it's not like, like Alfred Payton, who, you know, had that hair that kind of curled over, and it made it difficult for him to see the basket. And, you know, it's just a joke. People used to joke about Alfred Payton's there. But, you know, he cut it, and now he's having his best season of his career, which doesn't really say all that much. But, yeah, anyway.

Don't do him like that. That's mean. I don't do them like that. I think for Sadiq to reach a ceiling, it would just be adding more stuff that. He's working around his athletic limitations. And when I say that, I mean, the lack of burst. He's a very strong guy. Like, he's posting up wings without much trouble.

But I guess the thing is just where do you, what do you see him reasonably adding? I'm not sure what else he would add at this point. That would be, you know, good enough that it's like a reasonable NBA skill that you want him to, to go to and more valuable than what has to be like better talent around him. As far as like a go-to scoring move, like what do I see him adding to help research? Yeah, because like there's the threes and now he's added this post-up game. So like what else do you see him adding? Do you see him just getting better at it or do you think he's going to add more to his game?

Well, I think first you have to examine his existing body of work to answer that question, right? And so one thing to consider is even with this, admittedly, somewhat limited in terms of potential all-star skill set. He's already had games where he's dropped like 30, 31, 32 points. So with what he has available, if he's like on on, like if he's on fire, he can put up all-star level statistics. And then as far as what he can add to do that more consistently, I don't know if it's a matter of adding.

I think that if he becomes even a tick more of an efficient shooter, if he continues to, he's kind of got a nose for the net as well. Like he plays clean up really well under the basket. And he kind of finds. soft spots in the defense to get up there and get an easy basket. If he keeps doing that and developing that kind of six cents to be around scoring opportunities.

And if he refines these post moves that he's been working on, I see no reason why he can't be a 20 point per game player around his prime. And then as far as one completely unique thing that he could add, I think he can drive to the net with a little more success than he's shown thus far, just by virtue of being super strong. being kind of deceptively athletic. And when we talk about the athletic limitations, obviously that's in reference to the burst.

But I think he's got a pretty good vertical. I think he's very strong. And he has exceptional body control when he is in the air. So I see no reason why he can't drive to the net with a bit more success. And then again, if he starts doing that, that only further opens up the perimeter game because then he's a three level scorer. Then he's a threat from everywhere on the offensive side of the floor.

So that would be my answer. If you're looking at three level, you got to be looking at a pull-up jump shot as well. Oh, yeah. Well, I guess the mid-range as well. I think his percentages have improved from there, and he's taken a few. And honestly, it's like a drop in the bucket. It looks automatic when he takes mid-range shots now.

So I'd like to see him start expanding on that. And then at that point, he would become a three-level score. That's my projected ceiling for him. When he backs into the paint, he usually does take a mid-range shot. He'll turn around and shoot something. He's not going all the way to the basket because usually there's a center there that's operating in that space and he can't make it all the way. So I get what you're saying about maybe adding more.

And I actually mentioned that move that he does. It's like that hard-and-esque move where he dribbles between his legs. His defender doesn't know if he's going to go left or right. Those are things that I see him doing to work around his athleticism. I just don't know if he's ever going to reach the level where that's going to be your go-to move because if you have an all-star, it's a caliber player, you know, you're talking about a guy who's probably at the very minimum, like the second best player on your team.

I'm just not sure that he's going to be that level of effective. No, I agree. I agree. And the fact of the matter is I don't know. I think I prefaced and I kind of my thesis with that is that I don't know if he's going to be an all-star. I don't know if he's going to add those things to kind of really critically define what his ceiling is in this league. But the fact of the matter is he just turned 22. And I think we're forgetting about that because he was labeled this pro pro ready low floor process.

aspect, that kind of taints our... High floor, low ceiling. Sorry, high floor, low ceiling. Yeah, it's because you, my apologies, because he was labeled that sort of taints, kind of our perceived value of what his upside could be. And what I would say is that he's consistently proven those people wrong. And like you said, Mike, people picking 10 through 19 or 10 through 18, I think are kicking themselves.

I almost maybe pretty much all of them. And even towards the back end of the top 10, I think might be kicking themselves because I'm telling you. If you did a redraft today, I think Sadiq would go top 10. That's just me personally because I think we're understating the value of a positive value rookie in his first year. And I think NBA GMs and NBA organizations look upon that very, very, very fondly. Like, look at the Kings.

They offered Marvin Bagley for him. And Marvin Bagley, obviously, not as good as Sadiq Bay. But he certainly has better theoretical, and I'm doing air quotes again, better theoretical upside. No, I disagree about that. Well, it went coming into the league. He would perceive badly. That was a pretty ridiculous straight-ball.

Oh, Bagley. Bagley is just comically bad as a defender. Like, comically bad. I just want to, this is just like a, you know, a minor anecdote. I used to play, I don't know if you guys ever played NBA Jam. Of course. It's a classic. So I have a friend with whom I used to play NBA Jam.

And for a while, when we are still getting used to the game, he would play defense by just backing up, like, completely under the basket, where he couldn't actually play defense. I watched Marvin Bagley do that. I mean, he legitimately just, he would legitimately just backed up and backed up and backed up until his head was like basically touching the net. And then he just got scored on.

So anyway. Yeah, the kids have a lot of issues, man. They got big problems. Bedley has a lot of issues. Drafting him over Luca is basically Bowie over Jordan. I mean, not that I think Luke would be Jordan, but in terms of just the degree of flub. Yeah, it's like, holy, wow.

But my, I get what you guys are saying, and maybe Bagley himself is not the perfect example, but I meant it more in the sense of he went second overall. I'm not sure what the Kings were thinking, but I can only imagine. Yeah, he was still a consensus top five, top five pick. He had upside at that point. I get what I'm saying. Like, yeah. That's what I'm saying is that we've got the upside.

But really at the end of the day, this upside is theoretical. We have no idea if these players are going to reach it. And the only verifiable fact that we have about Sadiq is that he's a, in my opinion, you know, really good player right now as a rookie. And so I think that he can get better. I think that he could theoretically reach that ceiling. I don't know it for a fact. I think it.

And that's, those are the reasons why. Fair enough. Yeah, I think in terms of it's big games, though, and this is valuable too. And like the player comes to mind, it's not because I think it's comparable, just just because this is how it happens is Clay Thompson, who got most of his points, his big game, you know, is his big games and he's had plenty of them. It came. due to just excellent shooting from the 3.1.

Of course, Thompson is one of the best motion three-point shooters, really, ever. And he was playing, of course, playing next to Steph Curry is this huge for him. You know, you look at his stats with him without, and they're very different. But, yeah, I mean, of course, it's still valid. I mean, if Sadiq can, he's going to get himself open. Like, and of course, you know, nobody likes this, but, yeah, you don't want the Pissons to win too many games. And when the games are close and suddenly Sadeek is open to the 3.1 and you're like, what are you doing?

do you not scout this guy at all? Like, what's the problem? Play defense. And it happens constantly. And I think part of that is just ability to just get open and know where to be. And of course, if you can score any game in which you have 25, 30 points, who cares where they came from, really, for the most part, I mean, as long as they're efficient. For sure.

I have to come into the three-point line, you know, okay, that's great. But it doesn't mean that somebody else is creating them for you. And it's a reflection of the fact that you can't really effectively create offense, but you can still be a very, very valuable player by doing that. I just think that, I don't think that, I think that given his floor, I don't think that there should be too much thought about with respect to his ceiling based on how he's already playing. And I also think that, again, if he develops into a guy who can be even the fourth

best guy on a championship team, I mean, that's a very, very valuable player. That's a very valuable starter. And it's an excellent value at pick 19. I think you can agree on that for sure. Yeah, I see him being very valuable. I'm with Tommy, though. I don't see the all-star ceiling. It's just the athleticism can be the ultimate determinant of sealing in this league.

And if you're not an elite athlete, certainly if you're below average athlete, you better be just excellent in some other way to make up for it if you're going to reach star level. So, all right, any other concluding thoughts? No. Nope, that was quite a bit. I think we covered it. All right. So that'll be it for today's episode. As always, I want to thank you all for listening, and we'll see you next time.