Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 43: Reflections on the season, Dwane Casey’s extension and Troy Weaver’s vision

Episode Date: May 20, 2021

This episode, the first in our offseason series, discusses our thoughts on the season and its conclusion, Dwane Casey's contract extension, and the first steps toward the realization of Troy Weaver's vision for the roster.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Driving to the Baskets, postseason edition, or at least postseason for the Pistons. Not postseason as in the playoffs, just as in the season being over. We're going to this day after the season finale, the loss against the Miami Heat, which locked the Pistons into the second best watery odds. Now, for those of you on familiar with how the odds work, it's no longer like it was a few years back.

This actually changes were brought on by the process era 76ers. who basically just wanted to be the worst team ever in order to get the best odds for the number one overall pick. So there was water reform a few years back. Now the top three teams all get the same odds at the number one overall pick, 14% each. So the top three teams all get the same odds also at the top four picks. So for the Pistons and for the Houston Rockets and the Orlando Magic, 14% at number one, 13.5 and number two, 12.7% of number three. and 12% at number four. So basically the Pistons have a 52% shot at picking in the top four.

That's for really looking, you know, looking at the draft, which we will sum up in much greater detail over the coming weeks. So 52% shot at picking the top four, which is really right before I lost my train of thought, I was going to say is really where it looks like the best talent is. So beyond that, Pistons will have a 28% shot at picking number five and then 20% picking number six. So whatever the case, the season is over.

It came and went very quickly. And we, myself, and Tommy and Dante are just going to talk about our thoughts as to how the season went. Now that it's over, maybe look forward a little bit and take it from there. So it really feels like the season has just absolutely flown by. It doesn't seem like too long ago that it was. It was December, and we were just agonizing over what Troy Weaver had done in the offseason. So, yeah, Tommy, how do you feel about it about how the season went? And really, how do you feel now that it's over?

I guess there's a better way of putting it. Now that it's over, I feel relieved. I think we were all kind of concerned by the moves that were made in the previous offseason in terms of the signings, all these weird random names. I thought all of us were kind of expecting a more, I don't know. a less talented group of signings, but at the same time, this wasn't the best group either. So we were all confused by it, but now that it's over,

I really think that it went really well. We still cured the second worst record, second best odds at top pick. Actually, we're tied with two other teams for best odds. And that's honestly the best you can ask for is laying down this foundation of guys who work very, very hard. and still coming out with really good odds at franchise level changing talent. So I was very happy with it.

I agree it flew by the condensed schedule. Really did. I felt condensed. And I'm just relieved now that it's over. So I don't know how you're feeling, Dante. Yeah, it flew by in a sense in some ways for sure. Like it seems like it was just yesterday that we were wondering, like, why did we take a traditional center? you know, at number 16 and how is Killian going to be and how is Sadiq Bay going to perform and

Savanley was just an afterthought and why did we sign Jeremy Grant? Why did we sign Mason Plumley? Like, yeah, it was like it was yesterday, you know, these questions that we were pondering all throughout the all throughout the offseason and then the season finally comes. And to me, it's tough rooting for losses. Like it really is. It runs counterintuitively to the, to what it means to be a sports fan, right? And, and, and, and, and, and, so, So in that sense, the season was kind of long for me, just this prolonged worrying, like, are they going to finish bad enough to where we've got good odds to land X-pick? And it gets to be a bit tiring.

And we've touched on this many times, actually, especially these last few months. You know, it's just not fun to do that. But as the season sort of progressed and kind of leaving out the worry about are we losing enough, it was a lot of fun to watch the rookies progress, obviously. it was a lot of fun to see the emergence of Jeremy Grant. And, you know, there were some nice surprises along the way, like Frank Jackson and the Diallo trade. And so overall, I think this is going to be,

it's kind of like like Weaver said today in his press conference. It's now you're just, you're shoveling the dirt onto the foundation of what's eventually going to be hopefully a really nice championship winning house. So it was not the most fun season. You know, it was interesting. It wasn't fun to root for losses. But at the very least, I think there are a lot of, of things that occurred this past calendar year that are really going to set us up in the future.

So overall, it was long in some ways. It was short in some ways, but I'm pretty happy that it's over. Yeah, I feel really honestly relief was the main thing for me after the season ended. I just kind of felt like it's almost, you know, it wasn't that the season was unenjoyable. It's just that as it went down the stretch, like you said, Dante, it's. It's not very fun to be rooting for the losses. Yeah, it is. It really does run, run counter to the,

to the ethos of, you know, just basic ethos of the fan, I would say. It was for the best at the distance we're losing. But going into every game, just especially like the last maybe month and it just got, the way the anxiety from me got more and more pronounced over the,

really as the pistons ran down, even down to yesterday. I, it just, it just became, uh, became really stressful. I guess you could say.

And I'm relieved kind of in the sense, like, in the sense of, you know, like, you know, you think back to back to college. It's like, you know, finals are over, you know, feel like it did well. Let's go out and get completely hammered something like that. It's not like. So the relief is kind of like, is in a somewhat celebratory fashion for me because, yeah, it's over. and I don't have to root for the Pistons to lose and be anxious as to, oh, my goodness, is this team of players that I like and the team that obviously I like and it's the team in which I'm

very emotionally invested. You know, I don't want to go out there and just root for them to, of course, I don't, I don't want to be going in there every night and saying, God, please, like Sadiq, have a bad game, you know, or something like that. No, and it's tough to compartmentalize too because I don't know how you guys watch these games, but I would ultimately want them to lose, but then every time they're bringing the ball up the floor, like, I want them to score almost all the time. And then depending on who the player is taking the shot, I like really want them to score. Like, I never want Sidney to miss. I never want

Killian to miss. I want Storke to splash every single three he takes. And so you're compartmentalizing all these different things in your head like, do well, but not too well. And then keep it close, but don't win. And it gets mentally exhausting, you know? And so not even. It goes further than just running counter to the sports ethos there. It's just not even, it doesn't even make sense from a, it's like if you're watching sports to enjoy them and now you're rooting for the team like, yeah, like you said, you're so emotionally invested into it. Like I really love this team and I don't want to see them go out there and go one and nine over their last 10. But unfortunately, due to the nature of the sport, the nature of the lottery, these are the types of things you have to root for for,

you know, a shot at sustained success, right? Well, it's the nature of the market too. I mean, if you're a team in Los Angeles or in Miami or in New York, then you don't have to really worry quite as much about big free agents coming your way. And you don't necessarily need the lottery then. The balls will bounce your way in other ways. But yeah, but it is the reality for Detroit. So it was something that needed to happen in the season. It was really going to be big for them to lock in good lottery odds.

And it ends. But like after that win against Memphis in particular, when it was really crunch time and the Pistons were really not going to want to win even one more game. That's when it got really stressful. But nonetheless, it went well. I think I can confidently say that. And we did see the Pistons. The Pistons really alone amongst the tanking teams spent the entire season playing and developing their rookies.

I did it, playing developing their young players. So we have the added bonus of not only the Pistons going to have, at the very least, the top six pick. and hopefully, you know, the higher the better, obviously. Not only that, but there were actual tangible benefits to the season at large versus a team like, you know, Orlando, which was bad because they tried to, it was a combination of injuries and trading people away. And Oklahoma City who really played a bunch of scrubs or Cleveland, who, sorry, Cleveland, you just suck.

That's not the way of putting it. You tried to win, but you suck. So, yeah, I'm glad it's over. and I'm glad it went the way it did. Yeah, exactly. Now that it's over, we can look at it as we got the results we wanted. This was honestly a really, really good first year for a rebuild. Normally a team doesn't get this type of talent and this type of record,

and then the establishing of this culture has been fantastic. You don't get that in the first year. You look at Houston, like look at how bad they had to be this year to secure those top odds. we didn't have to deal with that. Like, yeah, it would have been nice if we had gotten those top odds, but it would not be worth it, I don't think. Like right now where we are,

it's just a one in five chance that we fall out of the top five. And I think the benefits of everything that has been brought in this season just outweighs that significantly. Yeah, I'd much rather be us than the Rockets. Like, I don't even think that's a question. So if you look at it in terms of just simple, you know, exchange, it's like we would be exchanging what the 20% chance that we fall, to the sixth pick for we got Jeremy Grant, we got Sadiq Bay, we got Isaiah Stewart, we saw

the progression of Killian Hayes, we uncovered some diamonds in the rough, we traded for Diallo, we've got what I don't want to say an excellent foundation because if it was excellent, we wouldn't have been the second worst team, but we have a good foundation and we have a foundation that many, many, many, I could even say probably most tanking teams couldn't even dream of having, right? We've got, we've assembled a good collection. of talent that we can build off of. And if we strike gold here in the lottery, like I'm talking picks one, two, or three,

I think we're in easy, you know, at least playing team next year. And at that point, it's like, what more could you really ask for out of a rebuilding season? Yeah, it's interesting that it was maybe a year ago. This is before Dante joined the show full time. But it was a year ago, less than a year ago, that Tommy and I were

talking about how long we would like the rebuild to be. And I said, you know what, two years, I think you'll do it. Tommy, I know you were more for a more protracted process. And obviously, the way that the Pistons went about it was different than some teams, that many teams have in the past. It's just trying to be as bad as possible, really get rid of everybody. It's worth noting that that's not what happened this year. There were basically no outright tankers to begin the season.

at Houston dealt with injuries Christian Wood after they lost him they went in an unbelievable losing streak the Rockets after they lost shy Gilges Alexander the Magic lost Jonathan Isaac early and then Markell Fultz so he wasn't great before he went down

and so nonetheless the Pistons went about it differently certainly has been in the compete while rebuilding. And I've got to say a lot of games went the Pistons way. A lot of things went the Pistons way in general. Like Blake Griffin, if he'd come back,

I've said it before, if he'd come back like 20% better than he was, if he had been just a solid starter with the Pistons rather than really bad. How many more games do you win that? He's still untradable, but you might win quite a few more games before that, before you reach the point of just saying, okay, let's call quits. Derek Rose was not good, but the Pistons. The Pistons lost a lot of very close games. And you hate to say that that's things going right, like, you know, Sadieq Bay down the stretch, whether he just, not the rookie wall, but, you know, a player who's never played to schedule anything like this against professional opposition.

And it's condensed, too. I think it may have just seen some fatigue down the stretch. But he had some really bad games down the stretch, and that was important of the Pistons losing, whatever the case. I don't think I could manage another. I would not like to sit through another year of hoping for the Pistons to lose. And honestly, I think that this was the year. They're not going to basically, Troy Weaver has come out and said certain things. Like, obviously, it's not going to go all out in the coming off season,

but it sounds like the Pistons are really just going to be focusing on developing and building from within and whatever happens next season will happen. So, yeah, it's, I don't think the Pistons are going to. to be quite this bad next season. I'm not sure if I think plans would be a big leap, but it's not out of the question. No, I just think, I know Tommy has a bit of a different opinion than Mike and I do regarding how long we should tank for them, what things are going to look like next year. But I agree with you, Mike. There isn't a world where Troy Weaver is going to go out and be like, okay, let's,

you know, trade picks. Let's spend every last cent we have bringing in the best free agents that we can. And let's really go for it in 2022. Like, no, that's not going to. to happen. But we have like, like, we just have, 22, you might not go all out, but this coming off season, you can't this coming off season rather. Yeah, exactly. So this coming off season, I just don't, I don't really see it happening and I don't see the organization having that mental, or at least internally saying to themselves, we're going to go for it right now this year. But the success is going to come, number one, as a result of continued player progression.

Number two, as a result of team cohesion, because when you've got a talented passer like Killian Hayes, he's only going to get better and better and better as he builds chemistry with the guys around him. So I think that that'll be impactful. And number three, that this is just what happens with young teams, right? Like you'd like to think that they're going to trend in the right direction without exterior help, or at least not much exterior help. So I think we're going to see a much better Pistons team next year. And it won't be by virtue of exterior, you know, additions or external additions. It's going to be by virtue of internal development. I 100% agree with you, Dante.

I don't think they're going to go all out, spend all their money. They still have Blake Riffin's money on the books, I think, for one more year. So 2022 seems like the year that they would probably try to spend a little bit more, maybe go in on building the team up in that sense. But I think this year it's going to be a lot more internal growth. And maybe their commitment to tanking is going to be reduced. I don't see them resting players down the stretch unless it's like maybe the last 10 games. We can significantly improve our odds.

like the play-ins out of the question, that sort of thing. But I don't think they're going to try so hard to get top odds again. I just don't see that because I think in one sense, like it is detrimental to the growth of some of these players. They're not going to get the, they're not going to build chemistry with some of these guys who have been resting. I think they want to avoid that. I don't think they're ever going to be like a 20-win team again.

If I had to guess, it would probably be closer to 35 wins. That seems like a good leap. And then the year after seems like when they would be planning to go. all in. So that's what I see happening. But I do agree with you. I don't think they're ever going to try to tank this hard again. I don't think we have to worry about the team trying to force losses unless it's going to be like last game, last 10 games type of you. So I think we are pretty fortunate to have a rebuild year one go this well to where we could be in that position to start. But I would say that it looks like it's worked out that way. So credit to Troy Weaver. Year one seems

like it's going really well. And if it's capped off by, you know, a high draft pick, you call that a win. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think it, I mean, might as well at this point, just pivot toward talking about the job that Troy Weaver did. Yeah, of course, during the offseason, there was a lot of anxiety amongst Pistons fans in general as to, you know, what's, what's he doing? you know, of course, like, uh, you're, you're going into a rebuild. You, you stretch salary to sign, really just to sign Mason Plumley because you could have stretched salary without, you know, you could sign Jeremy Grant without stretching salary. And like, yeah, sure, you're, so you, you, you, you, you stretch a bunch of salary in the first year of rebuild, when you're,

when you're clearly not trying to win. That's really, really almost unheard of. And you, you, you, you handed a pretty hefty chunk of change to Jeremy Grant, who is up to this point of role player, Mason Plumlee, who is just a completely unremarkable center. And it's like, have we picked up another lemon here? You know, what's this guy all about? He was really highly regarded, and what has he done? So I'm not going to, I'm absolutely going to give Troy Weaver credit for the way things have gone. I'm not going to go so far as to say, Like he knew that this was going to happen. You know, he knew that it was going to go this way and that, you know, he just calculated it the whole way.

Of course, nobody's that smart. You know, if, if, if maybe like this is one of those, one of those science fiction situations when somebody has replaced his brain with an artificial super intelligence, you know, maybe then. Though probably the human race is doomed if that's the case. But, you know, I digress. So I do think he managed it. He managed things adroitly, certainly, and took some steps that I did not think he would. We knew that Derek Rose would be traded most likely. You know, that was just likely to happen.

And, you know, he did that. Seeing Blake Griffin pulled from the lineup and then basically sent packing with a thank you and here's $45 million to go away, that was surprising. It was something that needed to be done, but it was surprising. I was very happy to see it. And I'm sure that he, you know, in seeing Delon Brite sent out, probably in an effort, not only in an effort to get additional draft picks, but also to probably make the team a little bit worse.

And also, I would imagine that Dway and Casey probably spoke well of Corey Joseph and a lot of people, a lot of players have spoken well of Corey Joseph, but who turned out to be better than expected, which was a little bit irritating. And then probably it was his guidance that changed the pistons, basically determined how the pistons handled the lineup down the stretch with an eye toward not winning when it would really not be a good idea to win. So all while building what seems to have been a very good culture,

very good team culture. So I'm impressed with how he's done. and kudos to him for his first year. Yeah, I think when we're talking about Troy Weaver, we mentioned this briefly one time before this was a few weeks ago, but I'll bring it up again. I think it's impossible to give Troy Weaver credit with a, and I know this sounds crazy, giving Tom Gore's credit.

And the reason you need to give him credit is because the fact of the matter is most general managers, and if you follow more than one sport, You don't have to follow only basketball to know this. There's only 30 or so general managers for a sport in one of the big four leagues in the entire world, right? It's a prestigious job. And given such, you tend to see people in these positions, these high-level executives, be very, very prudent, right? And it's easy to tell these guys how to build a team, like the way that you want to do it on 2K when you're playing franchise mode.

But these guys have a prestigious job. They probably want to keep it. And so they act cautiously. and then they're slow to do crazy things. And obviously there are some exceptions, but for the most part, general managers don't tend to go crazy and tear it all down and make all these moves and go out with their clip fully unloaded,

like Troy like to say. I think the reason that the Weaver was emboldened to do that and to do such a total tear down, and not only to tear the team down, but to reshape it almost entirely in his image or to his liking within one year, he had to have received a high level of job security. Like there's no way that Tom Gore's told him, yeah, we're trying to win him.

We're trying to win as soon as possible. And then Weaver goes out and delivers this. You have to think that somewhere along the line and I don't know who to credit, maybe it's Arndelam, maybe it's Ed Stefansky, maybe it's Dwayne Casey himself, which I doubt, but you never know. Somebody got in Tom Gore's ear and told him he has to change his attitude and his mindset on this organization or they're going to be on the treadmill forever. They're going to go nowhere.

And so to Gore's credit, his attitude. change allowed Weaver to, and obviously we don't know if it's a rousing success yet, I mean, we can hope, but we're not 100% sure. We'll see how it plays out. But his attitude change allowed Weaver to do the things he needed to do to get this organization pointed in the right direction. I think you can credit Stan Van Gundy for that. He puts such a crappy product together, kicking the can down the road, that it finally changed Tom Gore's his mind. This is the first time since we, since we've started, since I've gotten back into the Pistons heavily, like that this is the first time that we've had a vision, you know, a long-term plan.

This isn't the team that's trying to just be as good as possible this year, get incrementally better. That just doesn't work in the NBA because these players, they get older, they get injured. Like, they're starting from a point and they have a long-term plan. And that's the big difference. And that's why this year was so much fun because we finally feels like we have a foundation and something that we're building on and building towards. We didn't have that the past few years. So yeah, definitely credit to Tom Gores for stepping aside and understanding that because I wanted that for years and it's finally happened. I'm not willing to credit Tom Gores for behaving like a rational owner. The leagues, I mean, the world's best owners of successful

sports teams, what they do is they hire the right people. They give them the resources they need and then they don't get in the way. And I feel like from Tom Goros, the pistons have just, he doesn't, like, he doesn't meddle on the personnel level, most, you know, by any indication. But it's just been a lot of amateurish meddling by a guy who just seems to be treating it like one of his venture capital businesses, like I'm coming in, and we're going to make this a successful team. And we're going to do it just directly. And it's like, it's not that simple. And you don't know what you're doing. And you don't know why you're meddling and you refuse to let the team rebuild. And your employment of Westing

competent people is getting in the way of that. I think my perception, and this isn't based on anything but just timing, is that Ed Stefanski was the one who finally got through to him. Ed Stefanski, who is the real, first real long-term professional basketball executive, who, you know, whom Tom Gores had employed. Dumars, of course, just went straight into management with the pistons. And Stephansky had been involved for a long time. And clearly, Gores thought well of him, or Stefanski is just as a silver tongue, because

he went in as a consultant's to help the Pistons hire a coach in a GM in 2018 and ended up hiring himself as a general manager. Still the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life. Yeah. I've determined that the best for the job is me. Yeah, exactly. He's like, well, I think it would more be like, well, I can't find anybody. worthy of taking the job. So I guess we'll just, you know, kick that can down the road and I'll

just do it myself. So, you know, it could be some combination of that and maybe, maybe, I don't think this is the case, but maybe Tom Gora seeing that, you know what, you get a star player and Blake Griffin and that doesn't make all your problems go away. You know, not that that trade had made any sense in the first place, and in my opinion, but we're not going to go over that again. Brother, I'm not going to talk about it again. If you've been a listener of this podcast, You've heard me talk about it many times already. And it's good to call that one history now also. So I'm not going to give him praise for it.

It's like, okay, Tom, maybe you'd finally see now how a successful sports team has run. So, but it's nice that he was willing to stand back. Yeah, no, I agree with you, Mike. And speaking of aggressiveness, this is a point that I wanted to bring up when we were talking about Weaver. and I kind of digressed into Tom Gore's, but if you want to talk about aggressiveness, my prediction, kind of looking down the line here, and I'm curious to know what your guys' thoughts are on this,

but Weaver's aggressiveness that he employed to get these first round picks to completely raise the roster and build it reback up in a completely different way, I think when it's finally time to compete, whether it's, you know, let's say we're better than expected next year and around the trade deadline, hey, maybe we can make a push or even I don't expect that to happen, let's say the year after it's like okay this is our year i expect that same aggressiveness to be

implied or applied inversely and now he's he's going to do it in a sense that maybe he makes a big swing and makes a big trade for a star player you know maybe he dishes out quite a few draft picks to grab someone who can help put us over the top maybe he makes these big flashy free agency signings um i don't think someone like troy weaver who very clearly um does his job going full throttle all the time. I don't think a guy like that only has one mode where he does it for tank, but he doesn't do it for winning. No, we're going to see an aggressive Troy Weaver, and we're going to see it in a way that's targeted with the goal of winning, you know? So that's, that's one of the thoughts I had, and I've kind of been sitting on that. So I'm wondering if you

guys agree or if you kind of view it differently. I definitely agree with you. This right now feels like we're sharpening the axe is how I like to think about it. It's a lot better, I think, to kind of acquire these assets, wait a little while while you're building this up, and then kind of explode out of where you're trying to get out of. Like, if we can, once we make our move to try to compete, I think we're going to be, like, firmly in the playoffs. Like next year, yeah, it's like we're either in the play on, maybe we get like the seventh or eighth C,

but when we're ready to compete, I think they're going to go crazy on it. And we'll have plenty of money to spend. Hopefully by that point, maybe there's a free agent that sees what we're building and we have some pull. I mean, it's still Michigan. but I agree with you, Dante. I definitely think they're going to be aggressive when they are ready to start competing.

So that's a great point. I like that. Yeah, and we were speaking on this a little bit earlier in the show as to what Troy Weaver has said, that this upcoming offseason isn't going to be the time. There's still more development. You said that's the Pistons. Basically the way you put it, we're not going to have any open roster spots. It's basically just a.

Another way of saying the pistons are going to build from within. And not that the pistons could do anything really much anyway. Right now, assuming that they let go of Corey Joseph's non-of-his contract, about 10 million, actually 10 million of the 12.6, I think he's owed next season. It's non-guaranteed. So if they let him go, they're looking at about 92.5 million to start the off-season against a cap of about 112 million. if you're looking at paying out about it could be anywhere from like seven to I think nine or ten million

depending on where the Pistons draft and then maybe like another couple million if they trade up with those second round picks into the late first or that they just take a couple of those second round picks out of the roster which I doubt they will that's you know that's like 10 million right there and that that leaves you only only about 10 million with which to work the business really can do much anyway they're going to want to read sign Hamadu in any events. They can exceed the cap to do that. They're going to need to also upgrade saving Lee's contract from two-way.

It'll cost them another $1.5 million. Frank Jacks and whatever he's going to be paid. So this wouldn't be the season anyway. It wouldn't have been the right time in any case. They really couldn't have done it even if they wanted to. Like you guys have said in 2022, you see Blake Griffin's money come off the books. And then maybe you make a splash then. Maybe you wait.

Who knows? It depends on where you are at that point. but I'd say this season has gone well in terms of acquiring some of that foundational talents. We've all said it before, of course, that the best player on the Pistons' next championship winning team is almost certainly not on the roster yet. Yeah, no, agree with you, Mike. The season has gone well enough that Casey got extended, you know, and that's something we haven't touched on. And we're talking about, well, this season has gone so well that we got these foundational pieces. We got this, we got that.

And we should credit Casey, too, because Casey, has had a big hand in their development. And there were no three bigger critics of Dwayne Casey than the three of us right here earlier on in the season. We used to just get on here and just rip them. And honestly, my opinion of him has improved so much just based on the bring them along slowly. And this is how we're going to integrate the rookies. And this is how we're going to do things. And it seems to have paid dividends, you know, in a big way.

And I'm hoping that those dividends are paid out for Killian as well. I think we're going to see a very different player. starting next season and doing no small part to Casey's guidance and coaching. So overall, when I saw the news about the extension, if I would have seen that six months ago, I would have lost my mind. But now I'm pretty happy. Yeah. Casey, I would say, I mean, we said it and we talked about him in our last episode.

We had actually a user submit a question as to will Casey be the coach of Detroit business next year? And clearly the answer, I mean, I think we are all concerned. confident answer. Be yes, Claire would answer is yes now. Yeah, the extension is only for one year,

of course, and one of the beatwriters has said that he believes Casey he'll go into a front office role of some kind after he retires. But, yeah, he's certainly impressed me as far as, like I used to look back

to his Toronto days and say, well, yeah, certain players developed quite a bit under his watch, but correlation doesn't necessarily imply, causation, and I still believe that to a degree. But I've been impressed with how he has, you know, how he has done with the young players and how, and how he's brought them along. I'm not going to look back and say that I think the way he was doing things that early on in

the season was right. I think he, I think that may have just been an issue of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, coaching at the time, but whatever the case, he's, he's, he's clearly, uh, pays a lot. You know, it clearly pays more than due diligence to, to developments into, into the players as individuals. And by all indications, they all like him. And, uh, he said something today, actually, that was very self-aware, like, uh, you know, not sunk on to sending. I just found it, you know, uh, it was just an instance of, uh, him being kind of self-deprecating. I've dogged him in the past, certainly, for being a coach who's too defensively focused in an offense first league. He came out today and said, yeah, I think is the way put it was he cut his teeth on defense coming into the league.

But now he realizes he's a offense first league and you're just got to focus on making and hitting more threes. I'll say it again. I don't think Casey is the player to coach this team when the Pistons start having real postseason aspirations. but but you know congratulations to him for for this extension and and I think aside from the first quarter of the season I think you did a fine job that said it helps that the Pistons were not actually trying to win because I think between Casey when they are it the point of which you get irritated with them is when they really a team really is trying to win and then you see you really see his flaws yeah I think I said on the last episode Casey's biggest issue in Toronto

So it was that he was way too reliant on his best players down the stretch to the point where it was so predictable that it was kind of difficult for them to get shots off. But for the situation right now, yeah, I really like the Casey extension. It shows that they believe in him. It's another vote of confidence and project stability to these young guys and all these guys who are kind of still looking at this year. And it's like, well, was this really a success? We won 20 games. No, they accomplished what they wanted. accomplish. I think part of that is not to go back to Weaver, but weaver brought in the right guys for Casey.

Like this is a guy, a group of guys who are very coachable. They seemed very open to what Casey's, I don't even know what the word would be, like his philosophies would be as far as how you're supposed to play. You see this common theme from these guys is like you have to be ready to play. And that was true even of teams in the past few years. And that's huge credit to Casey for that one because these guys come in with the right attitude. And I think that that has been huge for the culture of this team and the rebuild. Casey's definitely been a great guy for managing player personalities. And in that sense, I think he's a fine candidate to lead the pistons for a few more years.

Yeah, Tommy, that's a phenomenal point. you know, the idea that Weaver is bringing in these guys who are culturally and ideologically perfect matches for what, you know, Casey and the organization as a whole want to do. And I think fans a lot of the time, they get so hyper focused on, okay, it's either bottom out and get the top pick or go all in and try and win a championship. And they kind of lose the minutia, you know, in the bigger picture. And really, when you think about it, the attitude of the locker room, the attitude of the team, plays a huge, huge part in success, you know, sustained success. And we're the Detroit Pistons,

right? There's no, you look no further than 2004. You can look to the bad boys. You can look to our identity is a team that has a specific culture, you know, a tough, gritty, hard-nosed basketball culture. And yeah, maybe the rules have changed. Maybe the game has changed. It's a little more offensively focused now, like you said, Mike. But one thing that's never going to get old in sports is bringing in guys and filling your locker room with players who know what it means to work hard, know what it means to be coached and can come together as a cohesive unit and have greater success, you know, become greater than the sum of their parts because they all have the right attitude. They're all buying in. And at the end of the day, they're a team. You know, it's not a

bunch of individuals out there just counting stats. It's a team and teams win at the highest level. So that's a great point, Tommy. I completely, completely agree. Yeah, like just exactly what you said. That was me a couple years ago. I had, I didn't believe in like the culture stuff and that that was like a feasible option. That felt like a fairy tale to me because you never see a team turn around their culture like this in one year. You know, you think about Miami, San Antonio. These are the teams that they have like a tradition of trying this hard.

And that is like that's the sort of thing. Obviously every team wants to try their hardest. and be the best they can be and bring in those guys. But you never see that happen like this quickly. So 100%. Like this, that was one of the brilliant things that Weaver did. And maybe it's even underrated.

We've talked about that plenty. But the fact that he brought in these guys who work so hard, it kind of, it makes you believe that whoever they bring in, you're going to get the most out of them. And that's very exciting. And that's another reason, like, why I really like that we're sticking with Casey,

because I think Casey is a guy. who can get the most out of these guys. He maybe isn't the best offensive coach and maybe not the most creative guy. But as far as developing this talent, I think he's going to do his best there. And I have hope for that. I would say when it comes to Miami,

one of the reasons why they all routinely try hard is because if they don't, Pat Riley will cut them. But, you know, joking, of course. But, yeah, I agree with the importance of culture there. And weaver has done a good job with that. And I suppose it's probably easy to forget about the importance of that because of a couple things. I mean, number one, this week is just so overwhelmingly top-tier talent focused at the moment.

But also, like for as much as culture was a big deal in the last championship win and for the bad boys as well, Dumars in his later days certainly didn't focus on culture at all. Like, I don't know how that certainly there was a huge change there. I don't know. I've always, I know this, well, whatever the case. I've never been entirely sure if Joe Dumars did not just catch lightning in a bottle in his earlier years, as general manager because things just took a baffling turn for the worst in 2008. But that's, you know, it's not here nor there, maybe a discussion for, you know, the period between free agency and the beginning of the season. I'll have a little less to talk about.

but, and then of course, his successor, Stan Van Gundy, a name that's for me still whips and infamy, had absolutely no eye for culture whatsoever of any kind, period, none at all. I mean, we've been over it, and again, there's no need to visit that again at this moment. But, yeah, it was easy to forget that that could be an important thing. and it's a big deal and it's it's a lot of it's a lot of fun also to watch a bunch of guys who are going to go out there and try hard and play for the team every night that said it's of course worth remembering that's uh and you said dante that it's a little more offensively focused i know there's just a figure of speech but it's tremendously more offensively focused now for sure yeah the defense you could play back then is illegal now and uh and the NBA did that largely because of the spurs and the pistons it was a lot of fun to watch them play if you if they were your team been horribly boring if they weren't. So you've, the culture is a big deal.

It's one of these, it's one of these big things like, these things that are particularly important for a smaller market team. That's not just going to be able to, you know, to, to accumulate an enormous amount of talent. But it's also fun to watch and it fits with the Detroit ethos. So you've got the culture. You got the hardworking guys. Yeah, you also have to have the talent though.

That's, I know neither of you guys think any differently. But it's just, it's, um, Tom Gores was all about the winning culture, but it's like you've got to have the right guys. You're not going to turn a team into, you're not going to build a winning culture just by trying to win. You've got to have the right guys, the people you need to win. And for all, he was all about the winning culture. That guy, by all accounts, loved Drummond, who is the most anti-culture guy I can think of. And the, you know, I don't believe the rumor posted just by one single,

small-time on-note sports reporter for a small-time sports website that he vetoed trades for drama. I don't believe that. But yeah, but the culture thing has been good. And I think, you know, I think that's great. Yeah, there, there's a couple things you said there, Mike, that I wanted to touch on quick. And the first one is, no, for sure. I don't think either Tommy or myself or under any, you know, disillusion that it's enough to put everybody's hands together and then do a little cheer and be able to go there and when in the end. B.A without having actual legitimate talent. So there's a blend. Of course not. I didn't think otherwise.

No, no, no, for sure. But the point remains that there's a blend between talent and culture. And I think it's like you said, Joe Dumars, he captured lightning in a bottle. And you saw a lot of success very quickly. And then it tapered off. And well, tapered off. It's not really the right word. It was a disaster towards the end. And the difference between talent and culture, a separate entities and then a blend of the two is I think when you blend the two, you can sort of have sustained success, right? Because it's one thing to have talented players, but, you know, these leagues are becoming more and more, not just the NBA, but mostly the NBA, are becoming more and more player friendly and player mobility is at an all-time high. And so players, number one, are not

going to stick around just out of the goodness of their hearts. And number two, the chemistry that a team builds or the chemistry that a team doesn't have can obviously impact winning or losing later down the line. So what it comes down to is can you blend culture and can you blend talent? And if you get those two things, that's when you have like you said, Tommy, like the spurs, like the heat. These are organizations that their mantra is winning. You know, they're not sitting there saying let's restore the spurs.

Let's restore that. These are good teams and they're consistently good teams year in and year out, not just because they have good players, but because they have a good culture. And, you know, there's, I'm sure there's lots of Pistons fans are probably Lions fans too. You're seeing this with the lions as well. They've come out of the like a dark and scary age versus now. I don't know if the lions are going to be good, but it's like Mike said, a team that has a good attitude and has a good mindset is a lot more fun to watch. And you see it with the lions and you certainly see it with the pistons.

You know, I'll never forget. And we've talked about this a few times before, but I'll never forget Reggie Jackson crashing the Blake Griffin interview when Blake was talking about how we need to play better and we need to stop collapsing. and Reggie gets in the frame and starts making these stupid faces. And yeah, it was funny and we can laugh at it. But anybody who doesn't think that that reflected a deep, seated issue with the organization or with the locker room or with the team, they're wrong. Like when players are not on the same page, discontent is rampant. Resentment is rampant. And that is not a sustained recipe for success.

So Mike, you said, you made tons of great points. It's about having more fun watching these guys with a good culture. And then it's, yeah, it could be sustained if you managed to blend those things. So, yeah, I completely agree with you. Yeah, I would say, like, I don't know if I've ever really talked about the Red Wings. I guess I have talked about the Red Wings in this podcast before. I used to be a really big fan of the Red Wings until I really got alienated by Ken Holland's management philosophy. You know, I ended up just watching a lot more of the Pistons to understand Van Gundy, you know,

were just so much better managed, just kind of funny, but, uh, but I digress. One of the things that Ken Holland did was studiously avoid bringing any bad locker room personalities in, and that I appreciate it. He had a ton of flaws, a ton of other flaws as general manager. And again, maybe I'm one of these kind of a dead period, uh, should be like between pre-again, between free agency and preseason. Uh, we can, we can talk about the Detroit sports, but, uh, you know, that was one thing I appreciate that he did. Yeah. And anybody who was not a good locker room presence and did not buy in. And there were very few of those. Some of you might remember Sean Avery, who was just a pest and, you know, maybe a little bit endearing if you're watching

him. So much fun to watch, I thought. Yeah, if you're not on his, you know, if he's, if he's on your team, maybe. But he, Ken Holland said just didn't take the game seriously. And that ended up being the truth. So that was one of the reasons he was, he was sent out. So it's also worth mentioning looking at Troy Weaver that, I mean, my goodness, we've mentioned this before, but look at the roster now compared to how it was last June when he took over. Bruce Brown, I believe, was the first domino to fall. And now Seque de Boia, who was drafted at the age of 18, in 2019, in June of 2020 2019, is the longest tenured member of the team. And geez, who is it after him? I don't really know.

Is it, like drafted after him? No, the player who's second longest tenure on the team. Oh, second longest tenure. Is that Killian? It would be, right? I think so.

So it would have been Musa if he, you know, if he had stayed with the team. Yeah, Pistons Legend Musa, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it's definitely, I mean, don't get me wrong. I do not miss the roster of the Pistons fielded in 2019, 2020, even the, yeah, there's just been so much change over the past year and it's been very refreshing. It hasn't always been relaxing. It's a lot easier at this point to look back and say, you know, my goodness, worked out so well.

But it's just the degree of the metamorphosis or the start of the metamorphosis, rather, under which the team has undergone. under Troy Weaver's managerial watch has really been quite interesting to watch. Yeah, whatever I'm thinking right now of this quote from Winston Churchill. I don't remember exactly. It was this after the Battle of Britain maybe who said this isn't the beginning of the end. I'm paraphrasing. He says this isn't the beginning of the end, but it may be the end of the beginning. That's kind of how I'm feeling about the rebuild at this point.

There's still a way as we'll have to go, but it's definitely the first step, I would say, has been a pretty big success. Yeah, if we get the first pick, I think we should draft Winston Churchill. Probably do. Winston? You're going to have to reanimate him first. Not cautious Winston, Winston Churchill, yeah. Yeah. He's a good move.

Definitely a culture guy. He's a good leader. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, I mean, he was a very capable leader throughout the most terrible war on human history. I'm not sure if he has the athleticism to really play in the NBA, though, not just because he's dead, but because when he was alive, he was kind of a portly fellow. But anyway, I like history. Old school center. Old school center.

All right. Yeah, you got it, Tommy. What do you think, about this whole culture discussion? I know you mentioned it at the beginning, but what do you think about the idea of blending culture and talent for sustained success? It's necessary. Because this team is never going to be the team that, unless we hit on miracles in the lottery,

we're never going to be the team that's just overwhelmingly talented. I don't think we're going to see a recreation of OKC. So I think you'd have to make the most of the guys. to be a closer to 2004 where it's just like the team plays really really well together, plays really, really hard more than we're just going to outtallon you. So in that sense, we're on the right track. It seems a lot more feasible to put a team together that just puts everything together than, yeah, we just have three superstars and we're just going to outscore you regardless.

Yeah, I think. So again, I was spoiled really watching the Red Wings growing up. when it came to even the teams with, you know, the 97, 98, 2002 team and also the 2008 team in which the best players, aside from Fedorov, who could be a little bit of prima donna at times, but the best players were super hard workers who were just focused on getting the win, and then they were not going to play for themselves at all. Like, I don't remember who said this. I think it was Chris Draper, actually.

and I believe I've said this in the podcast before. Whatever, I'm just going to say it again. He said, you know, when you see a guy like Steve Eisenman who, Steve Eisenman is one of the best players in the history of the NHL, like probably a top 20 player of all time. And he, when you see a guy like that going out and throwing his body on the line, putting his body on the line and grinding and blocking shots and whatnot, it's kind of, you know, hard not to do that yourself.

And as Darren McCarty who said, you know, he put up a lot of statistics. but the only one he cared about was the win. So, yeah, culture is not only, I mean, it's a big thing. And it's, it's always been something, I was certainly aggravated with certain players in the recent past who are not willing to put the team over themselves. And this team seems with the possible exception of whatever, I mean, I'll just say Josh Jackson occasionally sticks out like a sore thumb. But it's not just that culture is a really helpful thing, unnecessary thing. It's also, you know, from a fan perspective, just very, very enjoyable to watch. And also, you do have that kind of Detroit basketball ethos. And that's, that's really what it's

about. And it's, it's nice to see the team working in, uh, in that direction. Yeah. Yeah, I'll just say, Mike, you're very, very lucky. You got to grow up watching the Red Wings because I, I've loved sports for as long as I can remember, but I, in Detroit sports in particular, but as far as hockey is concerned, I grew up a Leafs fan. So I never, I never see it. I'm hoping starting this week, and I know this sounds crazy, but me as a fan just of sports in general, when I've actually cared about a team, whether it's baseball, football, hockey, or basketball,

I've never actually seen any of my teams advance in the playoffs. I know that that's crazy, but I, you know, I'm hoping Toronto does it against Montreal coming up, but that kind of ties back into what we're talking about. Like, I don't know about you. Well, actually, I do know. I'm sure you guys are 100% in agreement with this, but I'll take.

one championship and I'll cherish it, you know, for the rest of my life for any of my teams. But ideally, you know, it's not just you're like the Philadelphia Eagles. You win a Super Bowl and then you're a garbage organization a year later or you just catch lightning in a bottle and then you fall apart. Like what would really, really make me happy as a fan, as it would all of us, is to be transformed from a team that needs a restoration to a team that can be a model for other organizations to, you know, emulate in their path to sustain success. That, I, I, I don't even, not to be too glum about it, but I have no idea what that's even remotely like.

And I would love to experience something like that someday. So I mean, look, the lions are on the right track. The Tigers, eh, the Leafs will see what they do this year. But I think the pistons are pointed in the right direction for sure. So I'm holding out a lot of hope. And I feel like Troy has inspired a ton of confidence. And he's built a good organization around them, a good team around them. And it's exactly like Tommy said, when everyone's working cohesive,

we're bringing in the right players who execute, you know, the right actions and they have the right attitude. And maybe it'll lead to something that's prolonged, you know, a prolonged golden age of success. And that remains to be seen, but I'm hoping for it for sure. 100% agree with you. I think the culture is on the right track. And I think at this point, it's just going to be bringing in the talent. So I'm excited to go into the draft stuff this summer. And I hope that you guys are, too, because this is a big, big summer for the Pistons in terms of their draft and the lottery and their draft picks. So that's definitely going to be something we talk about.

Yeah, it's Jalen Green season, baby. Absolutely. All right, well, that seems like a good place to stop this episode. So as always, thank you all for listening. We will get you next time.