Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 49: The implications of the first-overall pick (featuring guest host Matt Schoch, former host of Locked On Pistons)

Episode Date: June 29, 2021

This episode discusses the overall implications of the Pistons' first-overall selection in the upcoming draft, for both the Pistons and the city of Detroit. Matt Schoch, former longtime host of Locked On Pistons, joins us as guest host.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Driving to the Basket. I'm Mike. I'm here with Tommy and Dante and also a very special guest. Matt Shook, former host, longtime host of Lockdown Pistons. Matt, thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, for sure. Thanks for having me. I appreciate the invite. Absolutely. So Matt, you know, you were the host of Lockdown Pistons for about three years. Why don't you tell us what you've been doing since then? Yeah, so still on the full-time job with Playmishkin.com. So I'm just writing stories. about the regulated gambling industry at PlayMishkin.com. We're gaining some steam, as Tony Paul reported in the Detroit news this week. So everything you kind of need to know, not exactly what team to pick when you're betting on sports and also casino games and online poker too, but just what's up with the sites? We had a story this week about a woman in Detroit who's suing BetMGM for $3 million and a really interesting twists and turns.

It's a lawsuit that's in court right now, so we'll be following that one. All the stuff you kind of need to know about the gambling industry, a little bit of sports, what operators to use, what's coming up on the horizon for players, responsible gambling and some of the things that the industry is doing to promote that kind of stuff. So we're trying to do a good service in an industry that's everywhere. You've seen the ads all over the place, and it could become an issue, obviously, if things are handled incorrectly. But, you know, as an affiliate, we're trying to do our part to kind of keep things going in the right direction and keep all parties going the right way.

Now, we can't help see some of those bad beats on some of those basketball games. But Playmishican.com, we've got pretty much everything you need to know to get involved safely and to do all the things that can help it be fun for you as a player. So that's my spiel. Had to get that corporate part out of the way. And now let's talk some basketball. Actually, sorry to the listeners for this, but we've got to sneak in a quick word from our sponsors here as well.

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See draftkings.com slash sportsbook for details. If you have a gambling problem called 1-800 gambler or in Indiana, 1-800-9 with it. And with that being said, let's get back to the episode. All right, fantastic. So as we all know, very big news as of man, it seems like it's been a lot longer, but it's only been since Tuesdays the Pistons won the draft lottery. We talked about it. The Pistons won the draft lottery?

Well, I was hibernating. I thought they got the sixth pick. Yeah, absolutely. They've been keeping it secret. They wanted us to be the ones to break it. There we go. Oh, there we go. So now you know, Pissons got the first overall pick.

Absolutely. So, yeah, of course, Dante and Tommy and I talked about it, you know, just the night of. Super exciting. I mean, but Matt, how did you feel the moment you were watching the draft lottery and you saw the Pistons got the first overall pick? So let me throw gambling into the mix in here as a little bit, too. This is kind of a maybe a glimpse into my psyche and how I kind of handle things as a fan. And I think one of the cool things about gambling is I talked about it with Lazz and those guys on Detroit Bad Boys is called emotional hedging, right?

If there's ever a Detroit team that ever has a big sporting event, big game coming up, which just imagine it. It can't happen. Maybe it'll happen again someday. But you bet against them, right? If you're a big fan because it's like you'll win the money if the team loses. So that was my approach going into a points bet, had some odds up. And there were really horrible odds.

This is not advisable. I made a bad bet mathematically. But I basically put some money down for the Pistons to win the 6th. pick. I put a little bit of less money down for them to win the fifth pick and then a little bit still less money for them to win the fourth pick. So that was the best, I think it was about a hundred bucks that I put down in total. Best hundred bucks I ever lost as a game was to have the pistons getting to that top three. And not only that, but to get the number one pick in a draft that's a pretty solid one to have the number one pick in. Absolutely. But I mean, how did you feel?

I mean, I'm not saying I was the reason that they got the pick, but I'm not saying I wasn't the reason. Okay, fair enough. I mean, that makes sense. Well, actually, I'm not sure if you knew, but Mike called the first overall pick on our show. So he actually is the reason we got. There you go. Fair enough. I mean, you know, what can I say?

But yeah, that's, it was just for me, I think for, I know for Dante and Tommy and I was just, it was really just, well, I can speak from my point. I mean, it was just such a sublime moment. Like, I tend to remember everything. I can barely remember like the five minutes after that happened. and my hands were shaking and yeah i've i've probably watched the draft water again like 10 times it's just kind of trying to recapture that oh yeah for sure well it's so surreal right it's absolutely i don't know how the rest of you guys kind of operated watching it but i lost my mind every single time they flipped the card and it wasn't the pistons because you it's like this is

okay this is detroit this is not happening and then it was happening um and still i still kind of don't believe it. Maybe not until I see Cade kind of take the floor will it become a reality for me. For me, I actually watched the, you know, the up until the top four before the commercial break in my apartment here. But then I was, when they were in the top four, I actually went downstairs to the bar. There's a bar downstairs from my apartment. And I knew the bartender was there and he's a, he's a big sports fan too.

And there's a couple other Pistons fans in there watching. It just was one of those moments where I felt like I wanted to be around people. You know, and at that point, I'm still a defeatist. I'm like, I just don't want four because, you know, it just feels like if you get into that top three, right, you get green, you get Mowbly, you get Cunningham. And I know that's debatable. Some people put Suggs in their top three. And that's maybe a conversation for another day and a conversation for Pistons fans that you don't have to have, thankfully, right now. But I was just like, just don't get four.

And I'm going to be really happy about how this all turns out. But then, like you said, the names get turned around, the teams get revealed. and it's one high five after another. I'm banging on the bar, you know, all that stuff. And then when the Detroit Pistons' horrible logo, outdated logo shows up on the ESPN screen, and they're talking about the number one pick, firsts in 51 years and all that,

it was that feeling where it's like, this is weird. Like good things don't happen to Detroit. Good things don't happen to the Pistons organization in the past 10 years. But it was. And Richard Jefferson's on TV talking about, you know, this is huge for the Detroit Pistons.

And it's like, yeah, this doesn't feel real, right? The fact that the national analysts are talking, even talking at all about the Detroit Pistons. And I know a lot of people are like, you know, that that is the goal in and of itself. To me, it's cool, but it's like, that's not the whole reason. I don't need the national media talking about the Pistons, but the fact that on this night, on this day, they had to talk about the Detroit Pistons. That was a big thing for me. It still doesn't feel real. Yeah.

And you talk about that. I remember I was watching the CBS sports coverage, which my mistake. But the first thing that they did was like maybe Cade Cunningham will pull in Eli Manning and try to force his way to Houston. I was like, yeah, no, this is this is draft night for the Pistons. It doesn't matter if we get the number one. They still got to talk about somebody else. Yeah.

I was not going to train into the pack. I watched that just for fun for a few minutes. And I was like, you know what, Avery Johnson? There was a reason why you've completely failed as coach in the NBA. Well, not completely failed, but I was like, what possesses you to come on after this? And the first thing you want to talk about was, oh, you know, it doesn't seem out of the, out of the realm of possibility for me that, you know, Cade's here, and, you know, he's, he's a Texas boy, and he forces his way off to Houston.

And it's like, well, number one, you clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about because that's not, you know, we have very, very, it's been very well established Kate's character as a person. as well as a player, and it's not the kind of thing that he does. But it's like, why, just because it's Detroit, do you have to, whatever? I just thought it was kind of obnoxious. And, you know, when you're Detroit, man, no, of course. I can remember, like, I saw, actually, I think I saw this the next day, but it's kind of like, you know, it's, it's part of the, it's just how it is for Detroit.

I'm in the Pistons have always been an underdog team. And, uh, and that's just how it is, you know, I don't really, I don't really care. I just thought it was, uh, notable. I remember like 0, 0, 0, 0, 4. 405 playoffs. And maybe this is just because I was in my, you know, early to mid-20s at that time, that after games or after certain big wins, big losses in the playoffs, I would go out the next day in the morning and I would seek out all the, all the national content about the game. See, what are people saying about the Pistons? And so now that they're kind of back on the national

stage and a little bit of a way here, you would think that maybe I would do that same kind of thing the day after the lottery. I did not do that. I didn't seek out national stuff, a little bit of local stuff, all the podcasts that, you know, the Pistons community of podcasts, a couple of columns out there in the local papers and stuff. But like, I don't care what the national media says about the Pistons. And frankly, just, I'm just, I think I'm going to, during this next run of success, which I think we're all on board is to some level is going to be coming here in these next couple years, that it's going to be less about caring about what everyone else thinks about us and maybe more about just the community and the state of Michigan kind of rallying around this team

and maybe even some of these other sports teams if they can turn it around too. And it just be more of an R kind of thing as opposed to trying to fit in with what everyone else thinks and trying to impress everyone else around the country. I think that's a great point, Matt, and this is something that we touched on a little bit in our instant reaction. But we were wondering what you thought as well, not just Cade in terms of what he means to the Pistons. Do you think this is kind of maybe, especially with Stafford being shipped out, do you think this is sort of the passing of the torch to like the face of athletics in Michigan would now be Kate Cunningham?

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I mean, McGee's probably still the most famous guy, but of course it's not, you know, a successful thing on the field day in and day out right now. But I think it's a good point. You know, Jared Goff's trying to come and rehabilitate his career a little bit and we're hopeful as fans that maybe that turns into some kind of positive direction and why not root for it as a fan. But yeah, Cade Cunningham coming in. And, you know, to be clear, I'm with you guys. It's got to be Cade at number one here. And I know everyone's going to trade rumor it to death.

And I don't know if you guys want to talk about what's out there. But it seems unlikely. It's it's bar room talk. It's fun to talk about what one team might have to throw out there for the pistons to consider a trade, especially if Troy Weaver's all over certain players we've heard about is Jalen Green maybe affinity there and what kind of thing might have to happen for that to happen. But yeah, I think Kate is going to be the face of this whole thing. And it's just nice that while I'm not going to seek out that content of nationalized, it is a nice feeling to know that it feels like for the first time and a long time since I wrote about earlier this this week, I wrote that the last time Detroit Sports mattered was the ALCS in 2013 when the tigers were playing

the Red Sox there and lost that one game two on the, the Orte's. he's Grand Slam. He just kind of felt like that series was over pretty much at that point. So for the first time, if you follow the NBA, you have to follow the Detroit Pistons next year because Cade Cunningham, his rookie season, is going to be a very relevant topic in the national discussion. And it should be and it has to be. And you could be a baseball fan these past five years plus NFL, NBA, NHL, and just not give a crap about the Detroit team. You didn't have to think about them. You didn't have to talk about them.

And you are fully vested. You are fully into your league. And you did not have to think about any of the Detroit teams. And now that is simply not the case. Yeah, that's a great point. Matt, one of my favorite things about your time at Locked On was you were a fan of the Pistons. And you could really feel that passion for the team in the way that you talked about them. One of my favorite moments, this is from a few years ago.

And I just remember, like, loudly agreeing with you in my car on my way home on my commute. you talked about how the Pistons needed to tear down. They needed to just pick a direction and stick with it. And now that it's worked out this well in our year one, I know that you kind of think about the team-building aspect. My question is, if you're the Pistons, making the assumption that you take Cade Cunningham, do you kind of ride it out for a couple years

trying to develop the talent that we have? Or do you think it's time to start making some win-now moves? Like, do you think the Pistons have to try to explode out of the East and really go all in? Because, like, you look at some of the teams that are left in the playoffs right now, the Hawks, the Sons. They were some of the worst teams in the league a couple years ago. Do you think the Pistons can be one of those teams that is going to, you know, next year they

have some cap space from Blake Griffin's money coming off the books. They have some flexibility. Do you think the Pistons are going to take advantage of that and kind of go all in? Or do you think that a team that's kind of prioritized development, re-ups Casey for an extra year, do you think they're going to focus more on internal development? Yeah, I think for one year you really don't have much of an option, like you said, because Griffin's money comes off after next season. I think it's just in some ways how next season goes kind of dictates that for you, right?

And then you look around the Eastern Conference. I mean, I don't know how long Brooklyn's going to be around in terms of those three guys. But I got to assume I think we all watch this playoffs. If they had like one and a half healthy guys, I don't even know if I would consider Harden half a healthy guy for what he was doing in that second round series. If they had two fully healthy guys, I think that they kind of roll through the Eastern Conference this year. And you got to kind of believe that they're, and it's just, by the way, just strange that I'm talking about the Eastern Conference landscape as it pertains to a discussion about the Detroit Pistons, which is just all these moments that we have when we talk and we talk to our friends and talk on podcasts and this next few months are going to be surreal because it's like, hey, this team matters. We're talking about a real thing here. But I would say that, you know, this year you kind of play it out, you roll the balls out.

I don't expect big time moves. I know a lot of people are throwing Jeremy Grant into a lot of trade. scenarios talking about this team that wants to make a shakeup, this team wants to make a shakeup. I don't anticipate much. And I know that we probably said a lot of the same kind of things last summer and then Troy Weaver completely overturns the roster, obviously in retrospect, in a very positive way. So I think that you kind of play it out for one year. But yeah, I think with that cap space going into the next season, of course, Jeremy Grant, going on the Olympic team, go, go recruit, go make some good connections around the league, go talk about how, you know, Detroit,

And I think that, you know, in the national media talks, I think there was like some clips going around of Stephen A and maybe some of those guys being like, oh, he's got to go play in Detroit. And that's the oldest thing in the world, the most tired thing in the world. I think with players, it's a little bit different. I think these guys appreciate a city like Detroit.

Maybe not every single player, but certain guys, it seems like Cade Cunningham might be one of those guys. Jeremy Grant is obviously one of those guys because he picked Detroit. There's a lot of things about Detroit that a lot of NBA players are going to like, the history being one of them. So I think you ride out this season, see how it goes. You know, the Troy Weaver picked the players that he picked in terms of the young guys and some of the retreads, some of the players that he gave chances to for a reason.

I think he's going to ride it out with a lot of these guys. Not to say there won't be moves and a lot of turnover in time. But, yeah, I think you do next summer when you have some of that cab space available, you look at veterans and you start thinking about which teams are we going to play in the playoffs, you know, if they make the playing game this year, if they make the play in playoffs this year. It's kind of icing on the cake, I think. It could happen. They could still be a team that falls around that 10th or 11th spot and, you know, what kind of injuries happen throughout the season. How good Cade Cunningham is right away will play a huge part of that

factor as well. But I think you ride it out for one year and then why not? Next season, go get established veterans, go get, use that space to better your team as much as possible because we're not talking about players that need to be around to help certain guys develop. up and all that kind of stuff. No, you just need good players to go win playoff games, which again, crazy thing to think about. Yeah, I would say just to visit what you said about playing in Detroit. Of course, we saw the reports in the video about Kate being excited for Detroit. I don't think it's just that he's a player who would go in and really give his all in any situation. Again, what has been said about his character has been uniformly positive and very emphasized,

just that he's a guy who's not only a super hard worker, not only a leader, but a guy who's just going to go in and do whatever it takes for his team to succeed. I think that Detroit was also the ideal scenario for him because really he could make his team from day one. I know you've got Killian Hayes there, but he's not established at all. And, you know, you have a guy like Kate on the team. They're both basically both going into their rookie years, functionally speaking. But you look at all the other teams like Houston, you know, you've got John Wall, Cleveland.

You've got Garland and Sexton, Toronto, Siakum, and Fredman, fleets, maybe Kyle Lowry, though I doubt it because they'll probably have sucks. But obviously, if they were drafting Kay, they wouldn't have sucks. But you go down the list, all of these teams have guys who are at least somewhat, who are at least somewhat established at the ball handling positions. Pretty much every team in the lottery, aside from maybe San Antonio, if you don't feel highly of DeJante Murray. So I think this was also the ideal destination for Cade, really, to just be able to come in

and be the guy around whom the offense is going to play probably unequivocally from day one. also to be the leader of a team too, right? Because I think that there's a little bit of a void there, and I don't mean that in a negative way, that Jeremy Grant's kind of the most established of the real players on this team right now in terms of a guy who's an impact player on what could be a good team too.

But he's not a gregarious guy. He's not someone out there who's talking a lot. He's a real kind of a shy, quiet guy. So I think that for, and not that Cade's much different than that. he's a pretty soft-spoken dude too. But it seems like a nice spot for him to have some good players around him that he can grow with and develop with and to also beat. There is that spot where we need a face of the franchise.

There is that spot where there's some, a Jeremy Grant around him who can kind of maybe defend the other team's best wing at times too. So it's really nice ideal. There's no pressure to win as a rookie or anything like that. We're all icing on the cake, at least for one year. So I think it's a good spot for him. as opposed to maybe a year ago, if this same kind of thing happened to the Pistons where they get the first pick,

I almost would have felt bad for that player coming into that situation with, you know, Blake's around and whatever fallout comes from the Eds tofansky era. So I think it's good for everyone involved. Yeah, I would say you've got a real luxury when you've got a player who can both be your best player on the court and also a leader on the court and in the locker room. That's rare. I'll just say quickly about what might happen next year. So in the 2022 off season, when a lot of money comes off the books,

I don't think it's necessarily given we're going to see a lot of money spent then. I think you had, like general managers, Dumars was absolutely guilty of this, like horribly first degree guilty of this going in and, oh, you've got cap space, well, you better spend it on the spot immediately. I think that Troy Weaver's a patient guy. I don't think he's really going to be facing pressure from above, whatever the case, left to his own devices. I think that if he feels like it's best,

not to spend that cap space in 2022 and to wait for the next season and just to sign some guys to one-year minimum contracts and continue developing and continue working in the right direction against the possibility of being able to set yourself up much better in the following year. I think that he would do that. Yeah. And I think this is, just to echo what you guys have said, I think this is damn near the perfect spot for Cade as well, at least amongst those teams that were at the very, very top of the lottery because it's exactly what you guys have just sort of posited there.

it's not often that you can mesh both someone who has the qualities of they can be the guy on the court and then the guy in terms of leadership right so kate is slotting in there very very nicely and then yeah we've all seen the videos right we saw his team freaking out at whatever restaurant he was at screaming about detroit and then there was a video posted last night by that very same trainer uh kade was shooting free throws in an empty gym and his trainer's filming them and you kind of hear him go like detroit basketball like he's doing they they know right this is going to be the pick and this is going to be a good pick. You know, it's going to be a franchise changing pick.

And I think it's funny that you mentioned Weaver's patience because I actually do disagree a little bit. I think that if Cade comes in and is performing at, you know, maybe take number one overall pick what you expect them to perform at and maybe a little better than that, like he's a very, very, very good player off the rip. I see no reason why Troy doesn't fully unload his clip like he says he's going to do and start making some moves to help us make a push because I think this is a play-in team next year. And if things go well, maybe just an outward.

right playoff team. So Matt, that's another thing I wanted to ask you. That's my opinion on where they're going to go next year. What are your thoughts on the, what would you say is their ceiling in terms of like placement in the standings if all goes well? Yeah, I think ceiling is probably right at that, you know, bottom of the playoffs, if you're talking about the sixth seed being the traditional playoff team right now. But that said, you know, why not? You know, that's the kind of the whole point of this whole week, right? Is that like, hey, the Pistons could win the championship in three years. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's, that's, that's freaking crazy. That was not the case a week ago, right? We were all excited. We all, you know, it's on an upward trajectory, made some good picks. And maybe Troy Weaver could do something fun with the fifth pick that, that it could work out if that's what happens. But now it's like, no, like the whole calculus has changed. A plan is to my, in my mind, very reasonable to, to expect that and to hope for that. That's another nice thing, too, is that like, I'm not saying go out and make win now moves into.

to make the 2021, 2022 season, this really, really crucial thing. I mean, I think it's going to naturally just be an improved team. But you're not tanking next year. And if things go off the rails and we're talking about the last fourth of the season and maybe you're hoping for some losses in there, that's fine. But like, it's not a whole half a season or more of hoping for losses. That's just it's miserable. Nobody wants to go through that again.

And the fact that we don't have to do that for another season, season is just great, that we're watching games to watch one of the great young talents in the game of basketball play. And is he a Luca type of player? Is he, you know, the lack of explosiveness? How does that kind of translate? And then all the great strengths and positives that he has in his game, how do those translate, you know, how great of a shooter is he is right away? Because that was a concern coming into his freshman year. He answered those with some of the numbers that he put up. I think it was over 40% from three. So it's all, it's all looking good, even though there's going to be some bumps in the road. We don't know how good,

you know, Bay and Stewart are in year two. Killian Hayes has got a lot of question marks around him too. But man, whatever happens, I mean, you're talking about a soft Eastern Conference. We're seeing the Atlanta Hawks in the Eastern Conference Finals right now. There's that blueprint. The Phoenix Sons are another great example of that of a team that, you know, in the bubble success they had, know everyone talks about, well, there's no momentum from season to season. Well, it turns out there could be some organizational momentum. And I think that the way that the good vibes, the good feelings that the Pistons organization has, the way that this city feels about Troy Weaver right now and the fact that the city's

ready for a winner to come out. These are all things that could possibly help this environment. You're going to have the bandwagon fans jump on. And I think the bandwagon fans get a little bit of a bad rap because why wouldn't you be a bandwagon fan in some ways? Why would you be like us and spend so much time watching this last 10 years of basketball? Maybe there's an argument to be made that that wasn't the right approach as fans either. But now we don't have to worry about it.

Now people can go back to games. It should be a nice crowd at LCA, at least for the first part of the season. We'll see how that all works out. But, man, just a completely different change from years past. And again, full speed ahead for me, not in terms of personnel decisions, but in terms of a fan looking forward, you're trying to win game one, you're trying to win game two, and all the way up through at least, you know, game 50, game 55 of the season. Maybe you look at things in another direction from there.

But just an outstanding feeling to be a fan, and it's something that you haven't felt as a Detroit fan in many years. Yeah, I almost want to just reiterate just how perfectly this first year the Troy Weaver has pulled off. Like, how often do you see a team add all their role players, Sadiq Bay, Isaiah Stewart, even Jeremy Grant, who's like a very good player, But now he doesn't need to be the best player on your team anymore. How often do you see those guys come in first?

And then one year later, you add the guy who can theoretically be your superstar, you know, your one option. Like, that's just crazy to me. It's just different. You know, I was thinking about two or three years ago, the Phoenix Sun's team, the only player left from that team is Devin Booker. Like, they had to completely revamp their team. We already have so much of what we can ride with into the future.

And that alone is just huge for. a team like the Pistons. Like we obviously don't have the most free agent pull. Maybe we'd have more of it now. But we have so many of the pieces. Like I think Jeremy Grant, Sadiq Bay, Isaiah Stewart, they can all be, you know, rotation pieces, maybe even starters on a championship team, depending on how Cades' rookie season or how his career kind of pans out. These are all just really valuable players and so much of the work has already done. Somebody had kind of, not called me out, but kind of noticed that I was already kind of hoping we would start to compete within a year. And on previous episodes, I've talked about, you know, we should tank for three to four

years before the rookie extensions start to hit. That's when you go all in in free agency. Hopefully you've drafted well. And they were kind of like, you're the guy who wants us to be tanking for three to four years, you know, acquire as much talent as possible. Well, I didn't expect this. You know, how this just doesn't go. This just went a lot better. then a typical rebuild would ever go. So that alone is just so exciting for the Pistons. And it's definitely, it's more than ideal. It's, it's been perfect, honestly.

Yeah, I think it definitely deserves mentioning how many things had to go right for this outcome to be reached at the end of year one. And I've said it before. I'll say it again. I'll bring up this Churchill quote that I, it's still have yet to actually look up. So I can't say it perfectly. But, you know, this isn't the beginning of the end,

but it may well be the end of the beginning. Whatever the case, if you look at all the things that had to go right, and some of these are not things you look at typically and say, well, this is a good thing. Blake Griffin comes in, and, you know, I think it was, I don't think it was much of the surprise all around that he wasn't healthy, but he also chooses the sandbag. We can say that pretty reliably.

The guy wasn't playing as hard as he could have, and that's fine. But he plays terribly also, and the Pistons lose games. You trade Derek Rose, who also hadn't been good. and let's see what else. I mean, the Pistons were like the worst clutch team in the entire league. I mean, this team clutched away. I mean, this is, or in a way for the Pistons sake, the best clutch team in the entire league because they lost so many close games.

And like you saw a lot of development from the youth and just really a lot of promising signs. And then you get the number one overall pick. Really, everything came together for the Pistons, to put it that way. I think those clutch loss. early in the season particularly. It was just like every other night they were busting back to come back into these games and they would just blow it at the very end or they'd bring the starters back in and those guys would lose. I think those were, I think guys like you and I and you guys and I were watching that kind of happy and laughing because we knew what this, what this season was very early on. It became apparent if you weren't sure, even in training camp. And that those those clutch losses in the first 15 games, 20 games were really kind of important. because it, it, you get Blake Griffin out of there, you trade Derek Rose without any kind of, like the Chicago Bulls this year, for instance, where they were, had a couple of good stretches of basketball and believed that they could make the play in game and played for that. And they had a

nice all-star in Zach Levine. So there was a little bit of merit to that as opposed to what we were going through in Detroit. But now they're sticking there. They're losing their pick after the trade for Roosevelt, too. So there was, it just kind of, the first half of the season worked out perfectly. even had a couple of those feel good wins over the Lakers and a couple of the good teams that they had beat this season two, just to make sure that you don't go single-digit wins or something like that. So it kept you engaged. And just Isaiah Stewart, to me, was just such a force in a lot of these games. And he's got a lot of improvement to do to become the player that hopefully he becomes.

But he's just got that DNA. I know that we're talking cliches a lot of times at this point. but when you have that feel-good moment as a fan, you start kind of talking in these kind of ways. But I know that, you know, Ben Wallace's energy gets thrown out a lot when talking about Isaiah Stewart. But to have a guy who's got that DNA was just kind of a good feeling, especially for the old school fans like me who have been watching too many guys over this past 10 years that obviously weren't, you know, worthy of wearing the Detroit Pistons red, white, and blue. And some of those guys ended up being the players that they tried to build the franchise around. And I mean, it's just, it was frustrating and you just kind of knew it when watching it. You couldn't maybe put your finger on it day in and day out about what's wrong with this team.

But it was just a feeling and an affect that wasn't there that started to get here this year. And, you know, I don't know what do you guys believe in karma, but the fact that the Pistons weren't doing what Orlando was doing at the end of this year, weren't doing what Houston was doing in terms of just outright, embarrassingly losing a lot of these games. It just felt like Detroit was ready for this kind of break that they got this week. And the karma worked out in their favor. And a team that was kind of building it the right way. And what was kind of a patient slow approach, really with this first pick kind of becomes a little bit more accelerated.

And it's just all good all around. Well, Matt, I would be remiss if I didn't say this. So when I was back going physically to school in the States, I used to just blast locked on pistons all the way to the tunnel and then all the way out of the tunnel. So locked on was like blaring on both sides of the border. And even as national international. Yeah, exactly. And even as far back as two, three years ago, you were leading the charge saying, hey, this is not working.

You know, this is not a recipe for number one sustained success. And number two, an eventual championship. It just isn't. And I completely agree with Mike. A lot had to go right to get to where we are now. But sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. And so if those ping pong balls don't bounce our way, and we do end up with the sixth pick.

Maybe we're having a little bit of a different, well, not maybe. We're definitely having a different conversation, but what I think is important to remember, especially as fans, because we've been conditioned, like, for four or five years now to be so down on this team, is that what is it?

Four or five, a million years. Well, not, not, not since the Sterling, Ben Gordon, Charlottes, Villanueva era, followed by Josh Smith. Not since the Erson-Illia Sova era. have we been this. You're going to have to bleep out some of these names for for some of reasons, I think. Exactly.

But point being, we as fans now, we're going to have to get used to this paradigm shift, right? Because let's be honest, Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson making the eighth seed is not the same as the Cade Cunningham Pistons making the eighth seed or just scraping into the playoffs. This is a team who would now be on an upwards trajectory. So whereas that core group of players we had under, you know, he who shall not be named Stan Van Gundy, they had reached their seat. He just named him. How is he? He should not be named.

Yeah, I didn't watch too much Harry Potter. I don't know how the rules work. Yeah, well, the rules are that if you say his name, you risk him showing up. Let me look for them. Now he's been fired too. I mean, there's a double-thage. Is there an open assistant coach's seat there next to key? Oh, goodness, gracious me.

Don't even say that. Yeah. But point being, you guys get what I'm trying to say is that it's even though these outcomes might be the same. Even though we may finish the same in the standings, it's a completely different vibe. It's a completely different trajectory, and it's a completely different outlook for this franchise. So that's something that I thought was funny, Matt, that you were saying, and that a lot of people who have followed this team for so long, we've been begging for it. We've been crying for it, and it's finally here. So it just feels good to win one.

Yeah, I think the journey of getting to that next level, wherever it is, I mean, we all remember not just the Pistons, but all these teams in Detroit, that that climb of getting to the top is almost, the championship's the best part. But like the climb of getting there is great. Hey, we're back in the playoffs. We got a chance to win a first round series. We got a big game six here at Little Caesars Arena. Those are going to be the special moments. I mean, I always have a huge affinity for Jerry Stackhouse because of the way that he helped lead that era into that next level. Now, he didn't win a championship.

He's not going to go down as one of the top 10 pistons of all time and have his number up in the rafters or anything like that. But guys like that, and I know Corliss ends up winning the title in 2004, but those building block type of guys that help get to that next level. Now, will all the players on next year's roster eventually be on the best version of the Detroit Pistons whenever that happens in this era? Absolutely not. But you can embrace those players, even the ones that don't end up winning those rings. I think that's a pretty special place to be. But as kind of an aside, I wanted to mention to you guys that I didn't get a chance to jump in here and kind of pass along a lot of the accolades in the. compliments but you guys this show and i know you guys are active on the subreddit as well i lurk on

there all the time well less so now but certainly when i was when i was hosting locked on pistons every day you know one of the reasons that i felt comfortable walking away from the show is that podcasts like this and there's so many of them and you guys are driving the bad basket in particular it's a really smart show and you guys aren't you know too fanny you know and just rose color glass all the time I know Mike, just the idea of Mike being too complimentary about the Pistons is laughable, even of itself. But I just think that there's shows out there like this and that there's this kind of tone out there that's obviously a really smart show. And I hope you guys pick up the listeners as it goes along and it becomes part of everyone's weekly diet of Detroit Pistons podcast. So it just was part of the calculus for me to be able to walk away and kind of do some other things and maybe be a little bit more.

of a casual observer and analyst and pontificator about this team. So I just wanted to say that off the top, too. But yeah, building from, you know, some of these things of where this team's at and the climb of what it's going to be is, I know everyone talks about that, like that self-help stuff where it's like, it's all about the journey. And I'm sure we've got posters of quotes in Dennis's office that say that all kind of stuff. But I think that that's going to be special and it's going to be fun. And maybe it doesn't result in the championship.

I mean, you know, you can be realistic about it too and say that, hey, the fact that this team might be a conference finalist team in a couple years. It might get to the NBA finals within the next decade. It's just something that's just nice to think about, especially given the last 10 years of Detroit sports fandom and what we've had to deal with. Yeah, absolutely agree 100%. And we were talking about that the last time we had something you get excited about, even in any sport in the city of Detroit was in 2013. and it was like you said with the Red Sox. And earlier that year, the Red Wings had made the conference finals and blew a three to one lead against the Chicago Blackhawks. That's tough to remember.

But it's tough to think about. But it's definitely been a while, especially in a city when you have at least, I don't know too much about the Tigers and the Lions, but certainly the Red Wings are in the middle of a rebuild. And I want to throw in, sorry, Mike, I want to throw in like as we talk about the 2013 Tigers. And those were, that was a fun era of when Miggy was going and Burlander and Schen. Jersey and all those guys. But what's different, like, I always felt like that that team, the Tigers were, it was a group of outstanding players that were, though you had the best hitter in the league, you had the best pitcher in the league, you had Max, who was the top five

pitcher at that time too. And then you had all these guys that were capable of pounding home runs in the middle of the order. I didn't feel like that that team was like built, because I was living in Missouri a lot of that time. So I was following the, the Royals and the Cardinals pretty closely as well. Those were organizations and teams that were built. built with fundamentals in mind. They were, and so it was just inevitable every year. The Tigers bullpen was going to collapse. The role players weren't going to produce enough at the bottom of the order.

And they weren't going to base run, like things like that, things that the little things that teams did to win championships and to sustain all these runs. Now, Cabrera and Verlander and Scherzer and Prince, like those guys could have overcome some of that and hit home runs their way to a World Series. I'm not saying it was impossible. but the way that Weaver is building it, the defensive mentality, the chip on the shoulder stuff on it that we love, that we see from Pistons fans in the past, it feels like it's being built in a more correct, holistic way that, you know, and who knows what kind of moves work out here from how things go and how some of these top players develop and how Kate Cunningham's career kind of comes together. But it feels like it's being built in the right way as opposed to spending huge amounts of money on certain players or cashing in all these products. aspects to get stars. It just kind of feels like a better start foundation direction of how things

are starting in this era as compared to maybe that Tigers team for the past. I agree completely. And also, I mean, we used to Tommy and I, when we early on on the show would really just pooh-poo the idea of team culture, though back then it was that, well, this largely, I believe, came from ownership, but that you want to build this winning culture by winning. And so we're never going to rebuild. And Troy Weaver has really taken the team culture and made it a thing. I mean, in addition, like you said, it's just building it very judiciously. But I think, I think the, just the culture that we've seen develop just based largely or entirely upon the personnel. And I think Dwayne Casey has as a role in it as well of like that's what I think Troy Weaver said

that wants to build up with that Detroit mentality. I mean, work hard, grind and just leave it all out in the courts, compete on defense, and so on and so forth. But I think he's really put together a very likable group of guys who all, I would say, I'm not the biggest fan of Josh Jackson, you know that. So I would say with the possible exception of Josh Jackson, really buy into that philosophy. And Tommy, I know you were definitely had a certain amount of disdain for the idea of team culture. And I know you've, that's definitely, this season has really changed your mind. I absolutely agree with you, Mike.

The way that we've managed to bring in these guys who put their head down, they work hard in just in the span of one year. And now potentially adding Cade Cunningham, another guy who definitely works very hard. It's just incredible to think about. And it really makes me believe in that stuff and the value of that stuff. The Miami heat culture,

it's definitely a real thing that people talk about, just how hard they work those guys, the conditioning. I definitely agree that now, at least, I see a lot of real value in that. And I definitely think that, you know, maybe it's not a, not a question mark or a requirement,

but I see certainly real value in bringing in guys who can buy into the team culture and continue to play that greater than the sum of your parts basketball, where you rely on your teammates, and especially now that we have a guy who can potentially generate offense, there's going to be a lot of increased opportunities. There's going to be a lot more fast breaks, a lot more help defense. I just think that we're entering a different era of Bistons basketball

because not just the culture being reset in the span of one year, the guys that we have, all of them being plus defenders, I think we will get to go back and see some of this old-school Detroit basketball that the Pistons diehards will really appreciate. So just the prospect of that, just very excited about. And I look forward to enjoying that journey, especially, like you said, Matt, it's not just about getting to the finals. It's about enjoying, you know, the night-to-night, the good, pleasant viewing experience that can be Detroit basketball. So I would say definitely a topic that's been hot around Pistons fandom just comes of,

well, do we think it's 100% sure that the Pistons will be selecting Kate Cunningham? And that's just largely come to the fact that Troy Weaver came out and said, you know, well, we're going to do a full draft process. We're going to look at five guys, you know, lip service to flexibility. Like, yeah, sure, it's a possibility technically that we could that we could trade the pick and and other sports personalities coming out and basically not saying that oh it's likely you know there's any likely possibility that Kate won't be to pick but just that Troy Weaver this is how he does things he he he he follows his own plans he doesn't just say well this guy's the

consensus number one overall picks so we're going to go with that he's that they're going to do a full draft workup and and basically what's been said is that you know we can't be 100 percent certain I think it's basically all that's been said. Any of you guys see any realistic scenario in which Cade will not be the number one pick? I don't. I don't. And I understand that Weaver may have, you know, concerned quite a few fans with some of his answers there in those immediate press conferences.

But this is, I was saying to the guys earlier in the week, like, Weaver and the rest of the front office are paid millions and millions of dollars to do nothing but run a basketball team. And so if they leave even one stone unturned, I would say it's gross. negligence. Like, they need to, they should be calling every team and asking them, hey, what package can you put together? What do you think about this? What do you think about that?

There's no reason not to cover all of your bases. So I understand where he's coming from. But at the same time, there's a reason why Cade Cunningham was the clear cut overall first best prospect in this entire draft class. And you keep hearing, oh, well, the Pistons love Jalen Green. And like, look, I love Jailen Green too. If you go back and listen to our draft previews, I actually said that Jailen Green was my favorite prospect to watch in the draft class.

You know, but that's like saying, well, I like watching Brad Beale or Zach Levine more than I like watching Luca Donchich, for example. It's like, okay, maybe one or two of those players plays a more exciting game, but one of those is the clear-cut best player. And so when you break down Cade versus Green, which I assume is kind of what fans are looking at as far as what Weaver might be doing, green clearly has the slight edge in scoring. I mean, maybe even not clearly, but it's not outside the. realm of possibility for Green to be the better overall scorer.

But Kate is a much better facilitator. He's a much better defender. He seems to be a more overall, a more mature player who has a very, very, very high basketball IQ. And his size is something that will serve him well, not only in his early career, in his prime, but even as, you know, maybe his other skills or his other athletic traits start to fade, he can always use that size, you know, in a Sean Livingston-esque way to bully smaller guards and always get his buckets and always be able to see over everybody and make

very good crisp passes. So while Green can really stuff the stat sheet in terms of points, Cade just makes everybody around him better to such a degree that I think it would be insane if he wasn't the pick and I'm fully 100% confident that he will be. Yeah, I 100% agree with you. The way I kind of put it earlier this week was Jalen Green is going to be a great individual player, great individual talent. But Kate is going to be just as well. Great individual talent can score from all three levels, but he's also going to elevate his teammates.

And that's the difference between a guy who's just in that pack with Jalen Suggs, Evan Mowbly and Jalen Green, and the clear-cut number one overall pick. So I'm not concerned about it right now. I think Troy Weaver is a good enough judge of talent. We've seen clearly that he knows what he's doing, and he definitely believes in his process. And there's no question marks with the intangibles or Cade's personality

that I think would be concerned. to Troy Weaver. In fact, everything Detroit Weaver has said about Cade to this point. I mean, we've seen the quotes. It's all been positive. He's talked about how he likes his personality, his winner's mentality, his just all the, all of the good things that you want that are just intangibles. All of it's there. So I think Kate is just a complete prospect. And in that sense, I don't think it's much of a question mark. And I'm not concerned. Yeah, I'll just kind of echo you guys. I think it's, it would be gross negligence like Dante says about Troy Weaver, if he was just going to fly off the seat of his pants and make the commitment internally that this is what's going to happen, you know, two days after the lottery.

You check all the film. You recheck these top, you know, he talks about five guys. Hopefully you trim that down to three guys or whatever. But obviously, you're looking at maybe five guys if there's teams that are talking trades with you in that top. But you just look around and while, while Cade Cunningham makes sense to every team in the NBA because he's Cade Cunningham and can kind of fit in in a lot of different ways, that doesn't mean that the Piston should be flippant about trading them to that teams. I mean, those teams have to come up with a package that you want a high pick this year, right, because you need a premium talent to continue building around. You want another star or fringe star kind of added into that. And then you want probably some more draft capital going forward.

I don't think Colin Sexton fits that role of that kind of thing. And I don't think, you know, Shea Gilges Alexander necessarily is, someone that the Thunder want to part with in terms of, you know, seven, which is obviously a really unfortunate situation for them, how the lottery shook down on Tuesday, and then maybe some future draft capital with the Thunder. Now, if they want to empty that clip and talk about seven, and again, Shea, it just doesn't seem like that was going to fit Oklahoma City's thing.

That's a team that maybe if they throw in a couple more picks. But again, you add Cade Cunningham to a team, those picks in the future get less valuable because that's a team that probably is at least the middle of the pack type of team. So Cade Cunningham being who he is and the expectations that we have about him ends up hurting the future draft capital that you could get from a team. So the formula doesn't really seem to work with any of those teams in the top 10 just because you're going to be, Cade Cunningham being who he is is going to cut the value of whatever package could be put together. Yeah, I agree with everything you guys have all said. Everything you guys have said. I think it's just, it's a pretty simple process here. Troy Weaver does a complete draft workup on a number of guys. We know that he's in, even interviewed guys who are almost certainly going outside the top five. So he does the typical draft workup and the typical draft work up and very complete. So yeah, that very completes, but also very typical draft work up. And that's the result that Kate Cunningham is the best. player. I think it's, I think it's pretty simple. That you guys have said, he's tremendously skilled.

He has all, really, all of the mental attributes you could ever ask for. And, well, not, not all of them, but I mean, like the one, the one you leave out. I don't remember who it was, but just like Jalen sucks, as we put it this way, has just been described, for example, for his just kind of, like, maniacal work ethic and, uh, or just maniacal sort of attitude on the floor, but, you know, Obviously, Kay, it's not a maniac like that, but I digress. In any event, I think he's got really everything you could ask for out of a number one, out of, in terms of mentality. And I just, I think that there's a process that will just end with him being judged,

the best number one overall pick. And the Pistons will go with that. And like you said, Matt, I don't think there are any realistic trade proposals. So, all right, so why don't we move on to talking about building a team around Kate Cunningham? And Tommy, I know you have certain thoughts on a particular point. player. Yeah, so earlier when we were talking about how there are a lot of the championship pieces already on this team. I like Jeremy Grant's fit with Cade Cunningham. I like Sadeeke Bay, low usage, can definitely hit that three-point or down. And he's even starting to shoot motion threes with

Wayne Ellington. I really like that that's a development that's been made. The one guy that I don't like the fit with is Killing Hayes, and that's definitely been a point of discussion this week and on the pistons, among the Pistons community. I just don't think that his play style and his player archetype is going to be the most valuable to the Pistons. And granted, I don't know exactly how you replace him, but I think there are options that should be explored. Like I personally would like to trade Killian, try to move up further into the first round.

There are a couple guys there that I think would be worth targeting. Their high ceiling, maybe a little bit riskier, but their play style fits along with what we need a lot more. So you're looking at Killian's rookie year and a lot of the same things that we saw in his rookie year were things that we had kind of talked about were issues even pre-draft, you know, before the piston selected him, things like his three-point shot not being there when in terms of motion three is like his passing vision being not useless, but it's not going to be as useful if he can't create advantages due to the fact that he's so contact diverse. I just think that there are a lot of issues there and I just don't like that fit with Cades. So I know Dante, you disagree with me.

Why don't you tell me why I'm wrong? Well, last time we had a debate, my internet cut out, and it was about Evan Mobley, so you won by default. But this time, I'm ready to go. So I'd like to first start by saying that I completely agree with the idea that it's essential to maximize Cade's abilities. So when we did our draft profiles, right, or our draft previews, we always said, okay, Jalen Green, how does he fit with the team? Evan Mobley, how does he fit with the team? But when we talked about Cade, it became, how does the team fit Cade? So I understand where you're coming from.

I think it's a discussion worth having, and I don't think there's anything wrong with bringing it up. But in terms of Cillian Hayes in particular, I think in order to have that discussion in an intellectually honest way, we have to get some clarity about what Cillian can be at, you know, an acceptable level of operations. So his first season was injury riddled, preparation deficient, and it was not a very good overall view of what I think that he can be as a player. So although we have some ideas of what he can do and he's shown flashes of what he's not good at and what he's very good at, I don't think we can determine what exactly he is and then by extension how he's going to fit with Cunningham. And so what we know he's good at is his passing, his defense, he's got great size, great length. and obviously he hustles and he plays good team basketball.

And I think it always behooves a team to have multiple solid ball handlers and multiple high-level passers. And so what I think you need to do is you need to throw Cunningham out there with Killian a lot. I think they need to play together a lot. And then when you've got a more well-rounded idea of how they work together, then you make a determination, right? And if that's what we need to trade Killian, I understand.

But by the same token, he hasn't shown that he's a valuable NBA player yet. and thus what exactly are we going to get in a trade that sort of even remotely mitigates what he potentially could be at his maximum potential. So those are kind of my thoughts and why I disagree with the premise, but I agree with the overall discussion. Yeah, I kind of, I think you can agree with both in some ways, right? Because like, in Tommy, maybe Tommy will be proven right in the long term. And maybe this is a move that the pistons need to think about. But I think Dante makes the point that there's not,

There's not a lot of trade value there right now. So it's not really a discussion for this off season. So it's just kind of a wait and see. You see how it all works out. I think there's very real good reasons to believe that they're going to be just fine together out on the court and growing together. But what Tommy Sand might end up being correct in the long term. So we'll kind of see it all kind of play out.

And we can have these discussions as this season goes on. But it's only part of that long term team build. And I think it's going to be self-evident, maybe in time as well. well yeah absolutely and if i could just throw in too because i forgot to mention this um Tommy may very well be proven right for our sake i hope he's not because i really like killian and i have his jersey so that would just be another another ways of a financial incentive there yeah yeah i'm i'm biased in my in my take here but i think a lot of this well not a lot of this actually mike has been very vocal about this almost 100% of killian's career it's going to be determined by his

ability to hit his three point shots and so given the fact that kate is clearly going to be the ball dominant player. If Killian doesn't improve his catch and shoot threes, not only does he not fit with Cade, he really doesn't have a spot in the NBA. So obviously a lot of this is contingent on Killian's ability to shoot, but he's such a great free throw shooter, and he has a very nice mechanical form and a very nice stroke.

I think he'll be fine. And if he's hitting those shots, especially those open ones that Cunningham can generate, I see no reason why his vision, his defense, his ball handling, and his overall basketball IQ wouldn't fit really, well with Cade. I'll say this about Killian. Yes, I agree with you. The defense fits. The three-point shooting off the dribble and coming off screens, he was terrible. There's just no way around it. But when he was able to plant himself, take his time and shoot threes, he was

adequate. I think we had the stats early on in the season. I think it was like 12% on off the dribble threes, which is God awful, obviously. And then he was showing some promise. Mike, I don't know if you remember the numbers, but it was something like, 30% on catch and shoot. So the potential is there. But if he's just a 3-and-D guy who can drive and kick, I don't think that's maximum value. And I don't think that that's kind of what we need right now. I think if you look at the lineup, Isaiah Stewart, Sadiq Bay, they're just not the best athletes. I would like us to bring more athleticism to our back court. There are a couple guys in the draft I think I could see trading up for, depending on how much

they fall. Book Knight is one of those guys. Definitely a very dynamic score. And even though his percentages weren't the best this year, I think he's kind of similar to Cunningham. He didn't play on the best team at Yukon. He had to generate a lot of his offense for himself. And I think he could really stand to improve his percentages and his overall play by being on a team where he doesn't have to do everything himself. Similar to how Jeremy Grant, I think his numbers will improve this year now that he's going to be playing next decade. I just think that somebody of that archetype is a lot more valuable. I think you'll lose a lot of what you were hoping for from Killian

when you bring in Cade because I think everybody thought killing was going to be our point guard of the future but I see Cade as our lead ball handler and even though I think it's more beneficial to Killian to have Cade there next to him I just don't think it's the best use of a roster spot and the potential money to have Killian playing the two for you.

So I think that's where the issue arises. And like I said, I don't know how you acquire these players, maybe Killian doesn't get you all the way up there. Maybe if you package a late first that you can trade for by packaging your seconds together, maybe you get all the way there. Maybe there's a team that likes Killian's potential. Because prior to winning the lottery, when we were talking about Jalen Green, a big part of that was Killian has to develop.

He has to be our guy. That's just not as much of a concern anymore. We have the luxury of a lot of our holes being filled. So I think that's just where I'm approaching this from. I didn't think about this fit at all until Cade was theoretically a piston. So it's just a concern that I have. Like, we have this guy. We have to maximize him soon.

Yeah, I would say there are a couple considerations with Caelian. I would agree that at this point, if you have Cade on the team, you don't have a very athletic starting lineup around him. And if you just replace one of those guys with the more athletic player, whether it be Bay with the yellow. or Hayes with the L or whatever else, then you're really just in better stead because you want to have those athletic guys who can defend in isolation and who can cut explosively to the basket.

And right now, really Jeremy Grant's the only guy who fits that. So as far as how I think Hayes could work out, I had said in the past before the draft lottery that I think he would be disappointing if he were just a 3-n-D and past guy, like the likes of Blonsor Bowl. But Kain on the team, I think that's less of a consideration. And it just gives Killian,

a lot more on the way of opportunities. He has easier, it just relieves him with some of the onus of creating offense off the dribble and just gives him more lanes to attack and he's still an excellent passer. So I think that if he can, I mean, if he develops toward along the lines of what everybody had hoped, you know, as a good step-back three-point shooter and the guy who's a good pull-up shooter in the interior, then I think you're fine. Now, if he doesn't really develop along the lines that will allow him to be an attacker and a guy who can create offense, I think that's where you have issues.

Now, the Pistons don't really need to decide this. I think the operative thing is the Pistons don't need to decide this from the next two seasons, unless Killian's terrible at the end of next season. And I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that if he'd start to slow the series spend some time in the G league. Now, if you have Saban Lee, if he develops into a good three-point shooter, then I think the calculus of a. it becomes much simpler.

Because if you have Saban Lee who can shoot threes, which will enable him to much better attack the basket, he's highway athletic, he's fearless, and he's got a good head and his shoulders as far as basketball IQ goes. And then it's just, then it becomes a lot simpler. I think if that happens next season, you really look at trading haze.

Yeah, and let's not forget, too, that athletic insert into the starting lineup is already on the roster, right? That's Hamadu Diallo. who, if anybody's listened to the show before they know I'm a huge fan of Diallo. And I think that resigning him is essential because if the worst case, well, I don't know if I'd call it the worst case scenario, but if it comes to pass that Hayes is not the answer and we really do need more athleticism in the lineup, that's why you've got Diallo. You know, you slot him in there.

And especially if he continues to grow as a three-point shooter, I love his potential too. So even though it's an issue or a potential future issue, I think it's very nice that we have probable resolutions already on the team. So I'm not too too concerned about it, but I do hope it works out for Killian because with his, in my opinion, elite facilitating or elite passing at the bare minimum, I think it'll end up working out nicely. And I think to kind of build along the post lottery considerations and what this means for the roster heading into the draft, I agree. I think Diallo should be a priority for Troy Weaver this offseason. But I think, in my opinion, bringing in Kate Cunningham and how much he's going to have the ball in his hands. I think that makes the Corey Joseph decision for you.

I think you cut that contract. You do the $2 million buyout. Whereas if you get number two and you draft Evan Mowbly or maybe even Jalen Green, you maybe consider the devil you know or the bird in hand. I don't know the correct cliche there because you know that Dwayne Casey liked Corey Joseph. I wouldn't have been a fan of bringing Joseph back anyway. But at least that decision has been now made for you with the way that the ping pong balls worked out. So I think Joseph is gone. And then you so you start thinking about Diallo, but then when you

bring Diallo back, hopefully, you also start thinking about, okay, this is a lack of shooting that the pistons had worked out when you're tanking and you're trying to lose. And hopefully some of the internal development takes care a little bit of that, especially talking about guys like Hayes and Diallo, who you figure are going to get big minutes. And hopefully they improve a little bit. And Sadie Kibbe continues to shoot it well. Isaiah Stewart adds it, Seiku. I mean, it's a whole, we could do probably two separate episodes on Saku going forward too. But so maybe when you're starting to build some of those bench players, you're thinking about shooting a little bit more than you would before that.

So maybe that's the bench players that you're bringing in. Frank Jackson's another question. I know there's some people in Pistons fandom that they really like him. Obviously, he ruined the tank a little bit on some nights there late in the season, and he showed some flashes. I'm not really a big Frank Jackson guy as much as maybe some questions. corners of Pistons fandom there. But we'll see how that all shakes down.

But I think the Cade Cunningham lottery availability for him to be picked for the Pistons next month, I think that answers some of the questions, but it also raises some levels of questions for Troy Weaver for the rest of his offseason two. Absolutely agree. And we shouldn't forget that the Pistons do have three second round picks, which I would say it's all but certain that at least two of those and maybe even Sacramento's future pick will be parlayed into moving up into the first round.

And there are some intriguing guys in the end in the 20 to 30 range. And I think that's really where the pistons will conceivably look for shooting. Maybe a backup center of the future as well, who knows. I think it'll be really interesting to see what Troy Weaver does with those picks, though, because the roster right now is pretty full

and that can change. I agree with you that Corey Joseph has almost certainly gone as much as I think he was quite a positive presence, maybe not in terms of stress level, because he played too well. But I think that by all accounts, I mean, the guy is very good in the locker room. And Sacramento's young guards, particularly, I think it was only Halliburton and Foxbook up, but they both had very good things to say about him.

So I think he was a helpful presence, but I don't see, you know, I think it's highly unlikely that it will still be. It's a math situation, too, because it's like the two million, I think the about two or three million dollars that the buyout is is not that much money. And then the 12 point, the 12, so the $10 million difference, it's just too much, especially when the role gets diminished naturally by Cade Cunningham. Yeah, I would say as far as Joseph, just a point of information, because I've seen a lot of questions about this, about trading him to another team that wants to cut salary. So it used to be that you could trade non-guaranteed salary and have it go into the salary matching equation. they closed that loophole in 2017.

I think, I don't know if this was after the summer. And I think this is 2016 in which Luke written hour is non-guaranteed salary. He was traded like four times. But whatever the case, you can no longer include non-guaranteed salary in that calculation. Now, whether or not, that would be a consideration is anybody's guess, because who knows if the Pistons will spend up to the cap. But that sets a question for another episode. Frank Jackson, I like, if you can bring him back at a low cost, because the guy is a very,

aggressive off-ball mover. And then that's the kind of guy I think you really would like to play next decade. The Pistons right now, that lack of athleticism, part of the reason it will be an issue is that you don't have very many guys who can move explosively off the ball. And Sadieke Bay is not really going to be able to do it. Killian Hayes certainly is not going to be able to do it. Guys who can dash around screens get the ball and shoot it. And maybe if Wayne Ellington is willing to come back and accept a very minor role, I don't think you will, that that's maybe one reason you consider possibly keeping him on the team that is veteran presence. Yeah, it's just an interesting set of questions that I don't think any of us are really used

to asking yet. Like in the past, we've always kind of thought about, all right, well, we don't have the best players coming in. We have to try to moneyball it and just bring guys who will fit really well together and maximize each other's strengths. But no, now we have the luxury of we have some top end talent potentially, and we have Jeremy Grant. We have role players who will maximize those guys.

The questions are different, but it's a good problem and it's a good predicament to be in. So it's a very exciting time. And I like these questions. And I think I'm just kind of approaching it from that point of view. I don't think, I don't know that Killian is ever going to be top end talent or ever going to be super valuable as a, as an off ball starter. So that's how I've been approaching it. And I'm very excited to think about these things in the future. And do we think that DeVitas-Savidis will be an all-star this year or,

or maybe next year? Like, when does Servitas make that leap to being an all-NBA type of player? I think there's not really much in the L-NBA conversation because I think that's selling short his MVP potential. But, yeah, I mean, it's like once we see the guy begin doing 360 dunks from the three-point line, we'll know that it's really over for the rest of the league. Oh, yeah. I thought we had already established.

You were renamed the MVP after him. It's going to be the Dave Award. Yeah, the Dave Award, exactly. I thought we had established he was on a minute's restriction to keep it fair. Oh, 100%. I mean, if the pastons had played him this season, they would have won 75 games. Yeah, that was a tanking consideration to keep them kind of hidden a little bit. Yeah, I just hadn't really thought about Mr. Dave. So, yeah, who knows where he fits in?

I mean, I think that it's rightly viewed his selection as kind of like a product of front office corruption that he was picked in part because they needed a wanted a draft and stash. It's good to be connected to Arn-Talem. Absolutely. That's something we've learned over the years. Yeah. So who knows? Who knows? Maybe he's one of those guys.

I mean, during the regular season, you want as many guys you can who come off the bench and hit threes at a high percentage. One thing that intrigues me about Dave, and this is completely random and has no real bearing on anything, but it's his biomechanics. I mean, you have some guys who move from their limbs and some guys who move from the court. Dave, in terms of how he moves and how he shoots, reminds me the most of Lamarcus Aldridge, which is completely bizarre to me. but whatever the case, I, I, for whatever reason, remain, or not remain, I mean, nobody's really, this guy's story has not been written at all. I'm pretty bullish on Saban Lee. And I think, I know I'm repeating myself, but if the guy learns to shoot threes, I mean, if you can shoot threes at, uh, off the ball, he should get off the ball, just to catch

and shoot threes at like, you know, high 30s, then I think that really answers a lot of your question to point guard. And, and that would be a big deal. I know Troy Weaver thought that West, in the last draft, he said that they had Saban Lee pegged as a top, excuse me, a first round talent. So, yeah, I think that would just, you know, it's funny saying this is about a second round pick, and he's just finished his rookie year and he attempted, like, I don't know, hardly any threes, but if you can make that step, then he's got a very respectable ceiling. And I think you also consider the fact that Sadiq Bay, I mean, I know, Dante, you're bullish

on his ceiling. I am not so bullish on his ceiling. I don't think he really has a great deal more improvements to fines just based on the fact that he's not the most athletic guy and I think he'll always have trouble creating offense. There's always the possibility that he ends up as a sixth man. It's a pretty big minute sixth man off the bench,

so I would prefer that Dielo have that rule just based on what I think he can do with the ball in his hands. I could tell you that size, shooting, basketball IQ, and plus defense are always going to be at a premium. And so whether or not he reaches, you know, I know I'm more optimistic on a ceiling than you guys, but whether or not he reaches all-star level, I think he'll always,

always be a valuable player of the team. And I think he fits in seamlessly in the starting lineup, especially with someone like Cade, who commands so much attention, is going to be able to facilitate at such a high level that Sadiq is actually going to get probably even better looks than he was getting in year one. So I think that he can see an uptick in production, too,

and maybe improve that efficiency as well. Yeah, I'm curious, Matt. What do you think about how we will see Isaiah Stewart develop? What do you perceive as his ceiling? Yeah, I mean, I think as the weeks went on, I mean, there were some games where those 20s and tens that he had. And I know that the stats, watching a bad NBA team play, that naturally someone was going to get those stats because these guys are good enough where someone was going to score, someone was going to grab rebounds. But, man, there were some games, I think kind of maybe early middle of the season where he was doing things athletically, offensively where, you know, he would be matching up with some guys off the, off the switches and

screens where it was really exciting to watch him move the way he did defensively. And we know about the culture attitude, you know, the type of play. And that's kind of a given with Isaiah Stewart at this point. But the three-pointers, I mean, some of the misses were so bad three-point-wise that that gives me a little bit of pause. I know that it's just a miss in the scorebook at the end of the day. but when you see just how bad some of those misses were, you think that, okay, so the feel on the shot is something that may come.

It may never come, and we'll see how that all kind of shakes out. But I think that question, and Mike was talking about Sabin Lee being a minus shooter right now, and hopefully that can come along in time as well. I think it kind of touches on that larger issue of Troy Weaver, and we knew this even from Oklahoma City, but it's more pronounced as time goes on, that he is a guy who obviously is betting that certain players, the shot will come along, right? That they will develop the three-point shot.

Diallo is someone that they targeted in Oklahoma City, and then he brings him over to Detroit as well. Killian Hayes is a player who needs to develop that too. Saban Lee, you talk about the first round grade. Well, if you're grading him as a first-round player, then you're internally saying as an organization that we can develop those shots. So Isaiah Stewart much the same way. So I think that that is a really big storyline to watch over these next couple years is how do those shots come along, what it looks, what looks differently in terms of the way that the form and ways things go. I think that there is reason to believe that I think that as we watch the NBA develop that you just have to score. And Mike's talked about this before.

it's obvious that the scoring has to come, the three-point shot has to come. It's not a luxury anymore. It's not that you would like to have three-point shooting. You have to have three-point shooting. So how that develops and how these guys come along says a lot, not only about Troy Weaver, but the coaching staff. And we know that Dwayne Casey, and to his credit, if I was still hosting locked on, I would have been so happy to see that they swept out most of the assistant coach.

and brought in a whole new crew. That's another positive development with this off season two as well. I think there's a reason to be excited there. And, you know, Dwayne, to his credit, there's been some development of young players throughout his career as well. And that's something to be kind of excited for as you're talking about this. So, yeah, I think that that's one of the storylines to watch is not just three point percentage night in and night out and how they stack up around the NBA, but taking real looks

at how much of it's catch and shoot, how much is off the move, how much of it is open three pointers they're being made or missed, how many are certain guys attempting? And that's a real storyline to watch as this thing gets built. Yeah, I would say, we talk about Stewart a lot in this podcast. I think that no matter who ends up being the best player on the team, I think Isaiah Stewart is that kind of player who's going to be the most popular in his own way or the most well-liked. And disliked by opposition as well.

Absolutely, yeah. We've talked, I turned around on Isaiah Stewart so quickly because when we drafted him, everybody was kind of, he was one of those question marks. It's like, why did we draft a traditional center? But certainly I think this is another credit to Weaver, recognizing the talent, recognizing that a guy who shot like 23-pointers in college on 25 percent could add this to his game. All these things make me very optimistic for the future of the Pistons. And it makes me trust that Troy Weaver will do his due diligence and make some of the, some of these decisions that maybe we wouldn't make, but they end up being the right one. So certainly I am optimistic about the future, cautiously optimistic as a Pistons fan, but very much so excited. Yeah, I know we, I abruptly changed topics from, from Sadiq Bay to Isaiah Stewart. And certainly we've talked, as Dante made and mentioned quite a bit about Sadiq Bay's ceiling or how we see him develop. Yeah, however Sadiq Bay works out, again, is another one of those luxuries where it's like

the fact that you get Cade Cunningham means that, you know, we don't have to sit here and be like, well, between Sadiq Bay and Killian Hayes and Isaiah Stewart, that one of these guys needs to become, you know, more of a score or more of whatever you expect them to end up being. So that's kind of the big picture outlook on all those guys is that you just kind of, you just kind of move everyone down the totem pole a little bit, and I mean that in a good way. I mean that in a way that their role doesn't have to be fringe star or something like that. So, Sadiq Bay, to me, that's the most important part about what he proved his rookie year is that he can play.

He can be in the NBA for a long time. He can be useful. He can be reliable. Now, I know maybe there's some people out there that really think that that next level and that next level is attainable for him. Again, I thought the athleticism is something that's going to hold him back from being. two or three steps ahead of where he is right now for the foreseeable future. But I think it's fine.

It's a positive thing for the Pistons to add a useful piece, a professional piece, a guy who comes in as a rookie and has experience as a high-level basketball player. And I think it's a good thing. So, no, I'm not super bullish on where Sadiq Bay is going to be as an individual player in these next two or three years. But I think as Pistons fans, the positive vibes continue in that he's a guy who's going to be useful, helpful, a positive player, and something that we'll look back on as another good Troy Weaver move in year one. Yeah, I think that the selection or the eventual selection of Cade sort of,

I don't really know how I want to put this. It might be that because Cade comes in and is the guy, Sadiq never really has to develop into anything more, sort of what you are alluding to, alluding to Matt. And it's just sort of, I feel like he really impressed me and surprised a lot of people with what he actually had in his tool belt, you know, this season. So he's not just a 3-Indie guy, in my opinion. I think that he showed a pretty good level of scoring from a lot of different areas on the floor and he really improved as a finisher around the basket towards the end of the season.

And I think that may have had to do with the fact that he realized that he can score at this level. And given that he can do that, why not try to score? in a more varied amount of ways, right? And so I think that the addition of Cunningham is going to sort of, you know, maybe stifle what could have been an even larger role that he could have taken on. But I do think he had that potential. And while the athleticism certainly holds him back, it's worth noting that really smart basketball players,

well, really smart athletes in general can compensate for a lack of athleticism with a high basketball IQ, which Sadiq certainly has. So whether or not he reaches this crazy. ceiling that, you know, I'm more bullish on than, then obviously everybody here. But I think I absolutely agree with you, Matt. He's going to be an essential piece. And it's always nice to have someone like that. Yeah, I would say something that's maybe a little bit understated is that Kate, and here is where I'm hoping to goodness, that he is actually the pick. So that we don't, this episode doesn't make us all sound completely silly. But whatever the case, yeah, I think we've

said it's overwhelmingly likely. So, add, him to the team, I think will allow players to really additional space to develop because, of course, it was really hard to come by offense this season because there was hardly anybody who was capable of creating it on their own, basically Jeremy Grant and to an extent, Derek Rose before he left there. He really wasn't very good for the past since this season. So, but like you also said, it frees up certain players from the onus to be more than they are. So I, I'm, I, I, I'm, I think that Sadiq Bay ultimately is probably the player in the lineup right now who's most likely to end up on the bench. But it's just you never know. I don't think it's really very

necessarily an important distinction. And when it comes to players like him and like Frank Jackson and like whoever else, it's just having those guys whom you know, you can send them the ball and they'll do something good with it. That's very important in general. It's definitely important when you're trying to build around a star. Of course, if you look further ahead, you start questioning, well, how do the Pistons, if they really have championship aspirations, get another star player on the team. I'm not convinced that it'll be Jeremy Grant. I think he'd probably be more suited to be that really good number three guy. And, you know, who knows? Maybe you get lucky and you find one later in the draft. Maybe you have the amount of asset

that accumulation that you can trade for one down the line using using draft picks and who knows what else but of course that's certainly in the future yeah i think that those discussions also like i mean there's different ways to slice it right i mean does jeremy grant end up being the second or third best player on the team you know if if you have like a really strong three four and five player uh maybe he maybe that can be okay and i agree that there's obviously whether it's a second star or whether it's two more really, really impactful starters and guys that can finish this game. You know, this is nowhere near a finished product, but I think the good vibes continue in that it's it's so much better. I mean, you bring Cade Cunningham in here. You're, you're kind of, it's almost

like you're skipping, I don't know if a full season of a rebuild, but winning that lottery is almost just like whether it's three-fourths of a whole season or a full season. Like you're just kind of like in Candyland jumping up two whole levels and kind of pushing fast forward on the whole thing. And then you can start thinking about next summer and the free agency and whatever the draft can yield as well. And maybe one of these rookies developing into that cornerstone of the franchise type of guy, too. There's different ways to skin the cat.

And I think that Kate Cunningham just makes it. so that there's less pressure on the role guys to develop into something more, but there's also opportunity for those guys to be that guy or to find that guy in other avenues, maybe free agency next year. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, just I never really even think about free agency just because, I mean, when was the last time the Pistons really nailed a star in free agency? I mean, of course, any team that is not Miami, Los Angeles.

Coach Chauncey, I think would be maybe the one. Oh, right. Well, you guys are forgetting about John Lur. Yeah, absolutely. To Coach Johnson, you're talking 2013, right? Yeah, when they brought him back alongside it. I was talking about like when bringing him in originally as not even tongue in cheek, but just we got to refer to him as Coach Chauncey now.

Yeah, yeah, sure. Congrats. Yeah, so yeah, but any team that's not in New York City, Miami or Los Angeles is an inherent disadvantage on the, on the free agent market, of course. But you never know. You never know what the Pistons might be able to do a couple years down the line. And yeah, I'm just, I find myself really excited for next season because it's, no matter what happens, I mean, it seems like, who knows, maybe Troy Weaver's impression. Plans on this have changed. He said before the draft, you know, we don't really anticipate having a lot of roster space, which I would presume means that you're just going with much the same group as you did last season plus the draft picks.

But it's really a season that can go in any direction. I mean, I'm sure it's going to be development focused. And if the pistons wind up doing well, then great. If they don't, then it's not a big deal. You've got plenty of hope either way. You don't have to bank on getting a high pick next year. I've said it many times. I think that this draft was super important for the pistons to get a high pick, and they did.

But, yeah, it can really go in any direction. And whatever the case, like, yeah, it was fun for a little while this season. I've said it before to root for the pistons to lose. It's like, ha-ha, you know, it's fun. tank commander such and such. But over the course of the season, it just became agonizing. So I'm glad to be done with that.

It stopped being fun because really it just runs so counter to what you want to do when you want to sit down and watch your favorite sports team is you want to watch them win. Right. And so I have every confidence that now is the time to win to what level I don't know. But I thought Matt, that Candyland analogy was pretty good. And I don't know if you guys have played like snakes and ladders. I think it's shoots and ladders in America, but in Canada, it's snakes and ladders.

It was a little board game. And so it's almost like you hit the ladder because even though I absolutely agree with you guys, it's not a complete product, you really hit on what was the most important thing, what was the most important ingredient to this whole kind of stew, this whole beef stew that we're making is you needed the most important or the best player on a potential championship winning team. And that's what Kate is. Cade can be that guy. So now it's just a matter of being able to fit the pieces around him to compliment him.

And then the sky's the limit. And as far as free agency is concerned, I brought this up in the last episode. I'll echo it now. I think that regardless of location, when you have a bunch of good young players doing something special on a team like we potentially could have as early as next season, guys coming off their rookie contract who are 24, 25 years old, they're going to want to come here. And so, excuse me, Cade is going to be like, you know, 19. We got young Killian, young beef stew, young Sadiq Bay, young Hamadu Diallo. Guys are going to look at what's going on in Detroit and be like, I want to be there.

And so I could sort of see them becoming a pseudo-free agency destination as well. And yeah, the entire thing has been accelerated and the outlook is really, really bright. Yeah, I think as far as players already in the roster, I'm repeating myself. I know I said this maybe in the last episode, maybe the episode before that, I think that if you're looking for a player, are already on the roster who has the most star potential, I would say it's, it's Diallo just as long as he can get stuff together. I don't think he would ever be more than Mike, just the standard All-Star is not a superstar player, but you have a guy who's already excellent at sacking the basket, who's a good enough passer to take advantage of the gravity

he can create in the weight of the basket. And if you had a three-point shot to that, he becomes a very difficult cover. So this is, you know, maybe this is not the most probable, but I think it's possible you see Diolo ultimately as a 20-plus point per game score. And And, yeah, if you've got Kate as a superstar level player and you've got Grant and just playing at the level he started last season and you've got Diallo is a good third option, then yeah, I think you're in pretty good studying. But, of course, we're getting way ahead of ourselves. I'm just really looking forward to next season. Yeah, it's good to dream. It's nice to dream and it's nice to think positively about this organization.

Yeah, for once in a long time. Yeah, like this, I think this season was definitely, there was a lot positive to take out of it. but just seeing number one come up in the draft lottery. I mean, I think that just takes it to an entirely different level. All right, any final thoughts before we end? Yeah, I'm just curious. I'm just thinking about draft night. What are we going to do?

What's going on? Are we getting the Pistons Nation together? Is there going to be a watch party? What's it going to feel like to see Cade Cunningham come off the board? Because it's not like number two or number three, where there's real question about who it might be on draft night, if it's green or Mowgli or whatever it's going to be. So it's a low stress night.

The bulk of it's done early. And then you can kind of have some pops and get excited for the second round or see when the trade, if the trade happens, if you package a couple picks together. It's going to be a fun night. And I'm looking forward to it. And maybe some of the listeners have some ideas of a place to get together and something to do on draft night. Listen, you guys are more than welcome at my host, but I adhere to a very strict no-pants policy. So if you guys are comfortable with that.

I thought it was a given. roll on through but yeah i agree it'd be cool if we could all uh you know there there's some pretty good avenues to do that we've got a group discord matt you're more than welcome to to join the voice chat we'll probably be on there uh we might be live streaming it we've had some um preliminary discussions about that but as far as final thoughts on this episode matt i really want to thank you for coming on man and this was um i i know i speak for tommy and mike as well when i say this uh you are an excellent host very professional very polished i loved listening to your show so this was really cool for me to do personally.

And I could definitely tell, like, you've lived up to your mantra of Pistons fan and follower your whole life because the passion really comes through when you're speaking. And I think we could all kind of tell that you had a lot of thoughts that you wanted to get out. And like I said, I speak for Mike and Tommy too. You've always got a place here if every once in a while you want to pop on and share your thoughts. We loved having you. And we thought that it was excellent.

For sure. And I appreciate being remembered. So it was good to jump on. And when you guys reached out, I was more than happy because I've had these thoughts that I want to get out. I've been tweeting a little bit less, even when I was watching games, just because I feel like everyone's kind of heard what I had to say for three and a half years. So I'm more than happy to jump on this show and whoever else wants to periodically have me jump in is kind of like the drunk uncle of Pistons Twitter, I think, is how I think of myself sometimes.

So I will live up to that anytime. Absolutely. And no pants. Remember that. What drunk uncle would ever wear pants? I think is the real question. You should just show up in a robe. Half-un tucked rope.

Absolutely. I'll just echo what Dante said. And just in case any of you are wondering why Tommy hasn't waited, he had to dip out a little bit early. But yeah, I'll just echo what Dante said. Thank you so much for coming on. It was great to have you. It was a good time.

And thanks for your kind words as well. They really do mean a lot. For sure. And I know you guys have. done a great job with the show and I encourage everyone to to follow along and there's plenty of good content out there and this is right among them and looking forward to seeing how all these shows and the content and some wins and excitement. It's just, it's just great. It's just great to be a part of this and thank God for that number one pick. And I think I'm, I'm excited just

like everyone else's. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, as always, thank you all for tuning in. See you next time. Thank you.