Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 52: The roster needs of a contender

Episode Date: July 21, 2021

This episode discusses, on a theoretical basis and in the context of where the team currently finds itself, the general personnel needs which the Pistons will likely face in the future in the process of building a contender.      Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, everybody. Welcome to Driving to the Basket, part of the Basketball Podcast Network. I am Mike. I'm here with Tommy, just a two-man show tonight. How you doing, Tommy? Good, man. I'm excited. Yeah, we're coming up on the draft real soon.

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wager paid out in site credits. Restrictions apply. See draftkings.com slash sportsbook for details. If you have a gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or in Indiana, 1-800-9 with it. And with that being said, let's get back to the episode. So tonight's show was, or today's show, rather, was originally going to be about prospects we like in at the end of the first round, assuming the Pistons would trade up. And we ultimately decided not to go with that because, you know, despite, I know we were asked by quite a few listeners to expand upon that topic a bit. but it's just too unpredictable.

It will be ultimately decided. We don't know in the first place where the pistons are going to pick. There's no guarantee they'll be able to trade into the late first round. Also, there's always some unpredictable stuff that can happen in the draft. Players fall, sometimes a great deal. Players rise, surprisingly. And that can just have a cascade effect. Like you think back, for example, the 2019, you add Nassir Little,

who is projected to go pretty high, like in the late lottery, mid to late lottery, and Kelton Johnson was projected and really right in the middle of the first round. They dropped to number 28 and 29. I believe I know Kelton Johnson was 29. Nassir Little was pretty low. I think it was either 28 or 25. Yeah, so it's just so hard to know who's going to be available there.

And so we ultimately decided not to go with that. Like I said, also no guarantee to Pistons will be able to trade back into the first round. I mean, you've got a lot of teams back there who could use some immediate help at whatever position. So, yeah. And honestly, if you look at the history of where multiple second round draftics are going to get you, particularly because one of them this year is 52, that's from the Lakers. And the possibility of the probability of getting a rotation player there is very low. ability of any rotation player anywhere in the second round is not great.

You know, maybe the Pistons uses a third pick, the Sacramento second round pick that they got in the trade with the Kings when they sent out Dilanwright for Corey Joseph. Maybe that becomes the third pick or that they sent out or whatever the case. I'd say the highest you're going to get. The highest highest highest is into the late first round. If you want to get any higher than that, you're going to need to attach an asset with value. the Pistons, pretty much their valuable assets are their young players and Jeremy Grant. So you're going to have to attach an asset.

That asset is not going to be Mason Plumley or Josh Jackson. Plumley's value is very low because he's a traditional center who, he can't space the floor. He's mediocre on offense. He's mediocre on defense and his ball handling and passing is less useful than it is in the Pistons. I just wouldn't be handling the ball as much for another team. Josh Jackson just has, they can confidently say very little trade value at this point, and he won't unless he warns to shoot. So anyway, moving on.

So, yeah, Tommy, I know there was a question we were asked by a listener to cover on this podcast. Why don't you go over that one? Yeah, so we were asked, do you think it was possible that the pistons would be willing or would want to, maybe not tank to the degree that they did this year? because I don't think that's possible anymore. But maybe you rest some of your good players on nights from maybe like second half of a back-to-back or if you know that you're going up against a contender,

stuff like that. So you just kind of decrease your win total a little bit. Because you think about what the Pistons are projected to do this upcoming season. I think most people are kind of in the agreeance that it's like, I think we'll be a playing team or that we'll be competing for a playing spot. A lot of people aren't expecting us to go anywhere higher than like the bottom of the playoffs, and that's fine for a team that just got the number one overall pick, just finished second worst in the league. That's already a very big step. And even though I think

this team is better than their record was last year, I think there is some benefit to maybe being patient another year. I've kind of gone back and forth personally on whether it's time to go all in or if we should be patient. I do think when you get the number one overall pick, and especially if it's a guy like kid Cunningham who definitely has expectations himself. The team has talked about having expectations for this upcoming year. Maybe it's not the best thing in terms of morale to intentionally lose. I know the Pistons kind of alluded to the fact that it was an open secret that they were tanking.

I'm sure they weren't thrilled about it, but maybe they were able to appreciate the forward thinking. But at the same time, these are professional athletes that didn't get to where they're getting, to where they are now by being okay with losing. So from a fan's perspective, especially me personally, where I don't really mind too much just being patient another year if I think it's good for the overall long term, I wouldn't mind it. But I definitely don't think it would be the sort of thing where we're committing long term or a lot of nights that we're trying to lose. So where are you at on that idea? I would say that it'll just play out as it will.

like we've talked about this on past episodes about how the Pistons were not I mean despite being the second worst team in the league they weren't nowhere near they were not even close to as bad of a team as their record suggested they lost a lot of close games a fair number of those against good teams I mean some of their wins granted came against especially early on came against good teams missing key players so those were kind of fools gold but you know, if you'd had just some, if the business hadn't been such a terrible clutch team, or, you know, as far as our point of you go, such a good, bad clutch team, you know,

you could have won a fair number of more games. And, you know, it was a squad that went out there and really competed every night and did a fair job of it. Also, despite being without, you know, despite just not having a good roster and really having, being without a lot of what makes a good offense tick in today's NBA. Now, a report came out from the athletic before this last season. Troy Weaver had already been hired, which said that the Pistons weren't anticipating making the playoffs for a few seasons, but they were not opposed to it happening organically.

So, you know, if the Pistons, like, I don't think that tanking is going to be much of an option provided at the, not just because the Pistons couldn't choose to do it, I guess. More or less, it's because I think the talent that's on the roster is going to make it difficult. Unless you have a lot of injuries or you see a significant regression, I'm not sure if the playoffs are really a realistic goal. It would take a lot going right for that to happen. But I just don't think the Pistons are going to be bad enough to be one of the worst teams in the league.

And again, I should also, I mean, it bears mentioned that the Pistons deliberately set players going down to stretch in order to lose. I mean, that probably added a fair number of losses as well. So, yeah, the only situation in which you might see the Pistons kind of tank would be in the late season, again, by resting guys, and primarily just veterans, and there will be probably less veterans playing key roles next season than there were this season. Yeah, I definitely agree with you. That's exactly what I was going to say.

The only way I could really see them, like, committing to a tank is if the season is kind have gone poorly up to like game 60 at that point maybe they decide well this isn't going that well it's unlikely that we're going to make a play in spot maybe they see that the other teams in the league are still trying to compete like last year or this past season one of the benefits was there were not a lot of tanking teams there were just not a lot of teams that were trying super hard to lose so in that sense it worked out really well for the piss and I think part of that is the new lottery odds honestly. But, you know, maybe that itself is a factor, you know, just in terms of like these decisions that they would make late in the year. If they think that they can boost their draft stock,

like let's say that their top end outcome is they make the play-in. That's 14th, 13th pick. If they think that's not worth it or if they think they're just going to miss the play-in by a little bit, maybe they just choose to start resting, you know, some of their keep. players down the stretch like they did at the end of this season and they think that they can get all the way up to, I don't know, pick nine, pick eight. Maybe there is a significant boost in, you know, the quality of player that they anticipate getting. Maybe they think they will be able to reap more long-term rewards because I do think that there is some value in being patient through this rebuild and not, you know, spending all their money and trying to win as fast as possible.

Like I posed this question to match took a couple episodes ago. Is like, do you think we start making some win-not moves or do you think we're patient? And I think his answer was, this upcoming year, you just wait for Blake Griffin's money to come off the books. But I think in a year, he said, you know, once that money comes off, that's when you look to compete. So things like that. I think that there is some value in being patient for another year. I just don't think they're going to do it to the degree that they displayed in this past season. Yeah, I definitely agree that in the situation, if the Pistons are on course to miss the plans,

then, yeah, it just makes all the sense in the world to kind of at the end of the season not be trying to win. And generally, I doubt you'll ever see them load manage the younger players. I just, I don't think they'll do that. But you might see again, Jeremy Grant sitting and Mason Plumley sitting and whichever other veterans are on the team next season. But ultimately, like I said, unless things go substantially wrong, I don't see it really being an option. And of course, though, I mean, this is all pending what happens in the draft. I don't see any surprises happening, really. But what happens in the draft, what happens in free agency, I don't see much happening in free agency either.

If the Pistons get rid of Corey Joseph, if they choose not to guarantee his contract, then they'll have about, I believe, 10 million in space, maybe a little bit more. Sorry, I had the calculation somewhere. I don't have them in front of me. They won't have a ton of it. And I don't think that they're really going to make any sort of splash and free agency. It just wouldn't really make any sense. Yeah, and Weaver himself even said that they really like the group of guys that they had.

They don't anticipate a lot of open roster spaces this summer. Yeah. it's going to, yeah, even for the likes of a guy like Tyler Cook, I mean, for him, it's just going to, whether or not he's on the team next season, it'll just depend on if there's roster space or not. He's got a fully non-guaranteed contract. So yeah, roster space might be at a premium. But it just wouldn't, it just wouldn't make sense to add a significant amount of long-term money. You'll probably see Diallo stay. But that might be the extent of it. And the pistons will be on course to have a significant amount of cap space going into the, that, 2022 off season and then maybe something happens then. So they look to just be using next season as an opportunity for developments. And yeah, like I said, to be patient. And I think for them, just patience means focusing on development rather than winning and whatever happens happens.

Yeah, it would have been nice, honestly, in my mind, if they could have traded up for one of these maybe higher upside guys in the middle of first round, I don't think that's going to happen anymore. I don't think they would make one of these big trades unless there was a specific guy that they really liked. And at this point, I just don't, I mean, we haven't gotten too many rumors in terms of who they're looking at. I know that they interviewed Scotty Barnes and Keon Johnson. I think Keon Johnson might drop into the teens. But other than that, like, we just are kind of in the dark to this point. And even then, I don't know that that's going to be, you know, the move that they make.

For me, it would have been just nice to bring in a run-emnate with Cade, who's got the same contract cycle with him or a similar contract cycle, just because I think there's a lot of value right now in bringing in, you know, the guys that we want to bring into the future or who we want to build around, having them all, have all their money,

like start to get, like when it's time to pay them, is what I'm trying to say, have all that happen about the same time. I think there's a lot of flexibility and advantage in that. Yeah, there's advantage, but I don't think it really be done. Yeah, I don't think the Pistons are going to be able to, I don't think the Pistons will let go one of their young players for the sake of moving in the middle of the first round. And I don't think you're going to get to the middle of the first round unless you attach probably Sadiq Bay.

I don't think Killian Hayes will get you there. So what I would say with Hayes, I said this a couple episodes ago, and I'm not suggesting the Pistons trade Killian Hays. I think they should be patient with him. I don't think there's any reason for them not to be patient with him. but he's right now he remains an upside player and he went number seven in a week draft there are plenty of guys in the midteens who probably would have going i mean if he were going into this draft he probably would have been in the midteens himself and there are higher upside guys there just killian's athleticism is going to be what's going to limit his upside and he's going to have to do a lot to he's got a lot of ground to cover in order to

to reach his ceiling, which could still be significant, but I don't think he's ever going to be like the kind of high-level creator that some of these guys could be. So yeah, it would have been nice, but I think the Pistons really did what they could in the last draft. They can't trade a first round pick right now for quite some time, barring whatever change and conveying that pick to the Rockets or getting around the Steppian rule by getting the first round pick from another team that's probably fairly unlikely but you never know so yeah it is what it is in this draft we're just going to have to to buckle down and just content ourselves with the first overall pick i mean i know it's hard and it's you know it's just another one more depredation to suffer as business fan but i think

we can get through it so i'll do my best yeah definitely yeah you don't you don't see that i know you don't see the pistons trading one of the young players either and but the young players we're talking Stewart Bay. Maybe, hey, Stuart and Bay are the ones particularly Bay with value. I don't think Saban Lee has any value right now. Yeah, no, I don't see that happening. I think there's just too much upside with those guys, and they fit our timeline too well. They're very valuable pieces.

Yeah, I mean, the timeline, I mean, if you're trading for a pick in this draft, you're still on the timeline. But, yeah, I just, Stuart and Bay have become relatively sure things. and I don't think you trade that for a pick in the mid-teens. Plus, by all accounts, the organization really likes them a great deal. And they have no reason, as I've said, they have no reason not to be patient with Hayes either. And they're apparently very high on him.

They passed on Halliburton, not because, and this happens, I mean, Halliburton's agent told other teams that, you know, we'd prefer if Halliburton went to the Kings. He wanted to go to the Kings. But the Pistons, by all accounts, drafted Hayes over him because they liked Hayes. All right. So I think it's worth looking into, you know, if we're talking about where the Pistons can go next season, what they, you know, where they stand as far as the accoutrements that are necessary to be a good team in the NBA. And, of course, they're far off almost certainly from anything approaching like late playoff status or, you know, excuse me, wake playoffs capability.

But just looking at where they are, just really in a even a theoretical basis. what do you think the biggest holes are right now for the pistons? And again, this is, this is. Yeah, there are some interesting questions to ask. Yeah, there are. I mean, I'm just thinking, I mean, this is, obviously the pistons are where they are right now. They're in the early stages of a rebuild. This is not saying, oh, the pistons need to go out and get a guy like this now.

It's just, you know, where do they stand as far as the accruiterments needed for success in the NBA in the long term, but they still need to add before this rebuild can be called complete. Yeah, definitely. I think there are still some questions about what some of these young. role players can be. Sadiek Bay can be a championship tier starter, if Isaiah Stewart can be what he can be, because I'm still back and forth on what he is. I know we all love him and we love his intangibles and his play style. I'm not suggesting that he's not going to be a championship tier starter, but what is his most valuable role, I think, is one of the interesting questions that you kind of want to figure out,

and by no means am I suggesting that we need to rush his development or give up on him early. but it would be really good to know what we have in him. So I hope that he gets a lot of run as a starter this year. I hope he makes that switch full time. I still think he's a starting caliber player, but championship starter, that's a big ask regardless, like of any position, like to be a championship tier player, that's a big deal.

And I know we all love what Isaiah Stewart does for the team in terms of how they play, but at the end of the day, you just need to have the talent. And as hard as Isaiah Stewart works, it would be really great if we had maybe a backup center. Like there are a lot of like cheap just run and jump guys who can, who have a really good catch radius on lobs. And for a team that has Kate Cunningham, who figures to be one of the better, you know, initiators or pick and roll passers, I think there is some value in having a guy. Maybe it's not Stewart, but maybe there's like a cheap guy that you can get.

off the bench who if you want more in the way of athleticism you bring him in uh just just putting a name out there i think kai jones was a guy that a lot of people were kind of talking about maybe if we wanted to trade into the mid to late first uh he's a guy that could play that backup center role you can't really trade on the i think it's kind of a moot point though how you're going to trade on the middlate first or excuse me yeah it's just i bring him up yeah yeah i bring him up because he's just an example i mean there's other examples but but he's just the first guy that I thought of, because he's just of a different archetype.

He's a rim runner, jumps high, and then I think he even has some three-point shooting, but I still like what Isaiah brings. I think he's very unique in the fact that he just never, ever stops running, and he provides a lot of value that way. I would like for Isaiah Stewart to be the starting center on a championship team, but I think that that's still a question mark, and that's a need that should be addressed at some point.

I'm excited to see this season what we have in Isaiah, see how he continues to grow and how he projects out. That's definitely one of the storylines that I want to watch and see what comes back there. Yeah, I would say, I mean, I think it might be worth just even talking about this coming season. Like, what we need to go right, for example, in terms of development on the roster and what these various players are bringing to the table in order for the Pistons to make the play ends. Like, you know, you say, okay, you only need to be a 10th seed to make plans. And yeah, that's true. And this season, in a 72 game season, you had some teams that were actually the three teams in the East alone that were below 500 in the plans. But like the Wizards weren't an awful team.

I mean, I don't think too highly of Westbrook. And they did, I mean, they lost Bryant early in the season. Bretons had a down season. But I remember us talking to the beginning of the season, like are the Wizards a team that's going to be. be a danger to the pistons as far as finishing hot, very well in the standings. And they got it together, of course. But they weren't a bad team. The Pacers, of course, were not a bad team, even though they had a bit of a nightmare season, big problems with coaching.

T.J. Warren was out the entire season and so on and so forth. The Hornets, they lost, who's their best player is Gordon Hayward, and they lost him pretty early on. But, you know, they had the rookie the year. They missed him for part of the season two. They were without him for part of the season two, but Terry Rozier wasn't a bad player. Miles Bridges made a big leap. They weren't a bad team. And you look in the east, of course, you have the Warriors.

We need no explanation. You have Clay Thompson, and you're pretty spare as far as supporting cast. But you got Steph Curry. What a fantastic season. They were above 500. The Grizzlies were above 500. The Wakers were above 500. And the Spurs, we have a decent young core, were not quite as good,

but decent young core best coach in NBA history in my opinion. So what I would say if you're looking at where the pistons are with, you know, who they've got and what they need. So last season, I mean, Jeremy Grant was your only real creator. That's not good enough. And he's not good enough. I would think we'll never be probably not be good enough. Maybe I'll be wrong, but probably not be good enough to be a primary creator for any team.

That aimed Stephen make the plans. You had Josh Jackson get a lot of run as a creator on the, the bench unit and even when he was in the starting lineup just because the pistons were so low on that on on that shot creation not because he was good at it just because he could do it to some degree he didn't do well at it by any means the pistons did not have much in the way of perimeter shooters i think even to make the plans you're going to have a significant amount more shooting uh in terms of bench depth yeah i mean if if you want to make the plans you're looking at needing significant leaps for from several players in order to have to have a

have a functioning offense. Presumably you have Kate Cunningham. You can count on him to probably contribute fairly well early on. He's considered a very NBA ready prospect. But even you look further in the starting lineup, you need either Kalyan Hayes or Duhamelow to become a good shooter. You need Sadiq Bay to maybe be a little bit more consistent than he was last season. Isaiah Stewart, who knows Jeremy Grant, just be maybe a secondary creator. And then you've got to have some guys off the bench. Like, yeah, Plumley is probably starting, you know, for the time being. But keep in mind, Plumley is a decent starting center for a bad team.

So, and who did he got off the bench? I mean, Josh Jackson, you know, I don't think highly of Josh Jackson. I think last season he was pretty poor, you know, capable defender. But on offense, he was inefficient in just a general black hole. It was even worse than his stats would appear because if he broke down the defense, nothing was going to come of it for his teammates. If he can shoot threes, that'll be huge. Athletic 3-N-D wing who can shoot 3s, fantastic.

You know, that's a very valuable player. Like, not super valuable, but certainly quite valuable. Who else will even look at on the bench here? I'm just drawing, I'm drawing a complete blank. I don't know if you got, did you mention Frank? Yeah, right. Frank Jackson, yeah, if they opt to keep him, it could be some decent shooting off the bench.

Who knows if you bring back Wayne Ellington. you know, Saku D-Boy, expect him to be in the G-League, but who knows, maybe he makes a leap over the summer, you know, with his first real NBA off-season,

well, after his rookie year. And, yeah, I'd say a lot would need to go right in order to the Pistons to be a playing team. Yeah, when you put it like that,

it really does feel like this season should be geared towards just pure internal development. They re-uped Casey for a year. And I just think there's, there is a lot of benefit in that. I wouldn't mind it if they brought back Wayne Ellington just because I really liked his contribution in terms of what we heard

about him doing for Sadiq Bay in terms of learning motion threes. And that was something that he was starting to add in the second half of the season. And that was really exciting to watch that development. And I think that that's Sadiq's role going forward. He can be a guy who's just low usage come off of the screen, put the ball up. That's amazing. And that's exactly what you want, especially on a team where he doesn't need to be over, like, over you, like one of the things that I've kind of notice, not notice, but I don't know what the right word is, but people have been getting upset or like questioning why all these pistons are in the playoffs or were in the playoffs and they were doing so well. It's because they were asked to play a role that was more suitable for their skill

level, whereas when they were with the pistons, a lot of times it was they were being asked to do a lot more. So yeah, obviously that's contingent on having more top end talent so that you can ask these lesser guys to play just a more reduced role that's easier for them. But, But if we do have that primary creator, that guy who's going to draw a lot of attention, we do have that luxury now. And Sadiq Bay doesn't have to be an all-star. He doesn't have to be a guy who creates a lot for himself. He can just be a guy who comes off screens, shoots threes, plays good defense on guards.

And if that's all he provides, that's great value for the 19th overall pick and whatever else we paid for him. Well, Luke Canard four seconds, yeah. But, I mean, that's Luke and Art, certainly expendable. And those four seconds, you know, when you look at what just Bay is projecting as right now, even as just that 3-and-D guy, that's a worthwhile for us to pay. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I definitely think that this is going to be a year for internal development. I would like it if they brought back Frank Jackson.

I think you can't have too many of those guys who are just capable of coming off the bench, splashing some threes. And I really appreciate that I think this was something that you mentioned, actually. but the fact that he moved a lot off ball and he was very aggressive trying to get open. I love seeing that stuff. I was looking for that and some of these prospects I was looking at throughout the draft. That's just a good quality to have. And especially on this team where it seems like they're very careful about the personalities that they pick up.

I think that's another, that fits in well. This team definitely doesn't seem to want anybody who's maybe lazy is the wrong word, but who doesn't try as hard all the time. We see just the inherent value of Isaiah Stewart just being the worker that he is. I think continuing to develop the guys that we have, make sure that they continue to work as hard as they do, establish that culture again, run it back and that sense will be very valuable for this team. So I definitely wouldn't say that this is the year that they are going to try to compete, but maybe they try to balance out internal development.

and if they go all the way to the end and they think, oh, well, we're not going to make the play in. We're not going to make the playoffs. Let's preserve our draft position a little bit. I wouldn't be upset. Yeah, I think definitely, like I said, I think development is going to be the primary thing. And, you know, whatever happens happens. Yeah, with Frank Jackson, you can never have, like you say, you can never have enough of those guys who move very well off ball and are able to shoot threes off the move.

And Frank actually did a fair job of attacking the basket, too, when he got the ball in motion. And, you know, and he's good at that. So it's certainly valuable. And one of the things that the Pistons roster currently wax is reliable three-point shooters who move well off the ball and can grab the ball off a screen and or just off a short pass and catch it in motion and shoot a three and score. That was something that Sveemakai look was good at in his, well, his first full season with the Pistons, he definitely didn't do nearly as well of it, nearly as good of a job of it in this past season

before he was traded. But those are very valuable guys, guys who can shoot motion threes, move out the ball well. Very, very valuable. They're not going to win something on their own. Obviously, they are role players, but they are valuable role players. And there aren't a lot of guys who can do that reliably on a high volume. Like Wayne Ellington, pretty inconsistent. Gelley, like Langston Galloway, pretty inconsistent. I feel bad for Galloway talking about former Pistons.

I mean, by all accounts, he was the, it was a consummate professional. and then just a good dude in the locker room for the Pistons in his final season. And Weaver just decided he preferred Ellington. Apparently it was a sad cut, but it was reported that it was a sad conversation to have with Langston. Who moved on to Phoenix? And you can say, sure, he might win a championship now, but he's played very little.

He's played 15 minutes in the playoffs so far. You know, last time I checked, I don't think he's played in either of the finals games. I haven't, I've only watched about half of one of those games. I cannot stand watching Mike Boodenholzer coach on offense. It's just so frustrating. I feel so bad for Janice. But yeah, I think when it comes to hard work and competing on both ends, I think that's an expectation rather than just the Pistons prefer guys like that.

I think that for Weaver, that's just, he brings in guys who we think, he thinks we'll just do that as a matter, of course. And that's great. And it's definitely a marked departure from how it was in the late Dumas years. and during the Stan Van Gundy era. Now, this is a bit of an A side, but yeah, you're talking about these Pistons who are on better teams in the playoffs playing different roles. Yeah, I agree that they're playing lesser roles. Reggie Jackson, I mean, he did a decent job as is the primary score on the 2015-2016 season.

It was his only actually healthy season with the Pistons. But, you know, there's a ceiling on that. He's just not good enough to play that role. He wasn't good enough back then. And the Pistons would have missed the playoffs almost certainly if Tobias Harris hadn't come onto the team. And Tobias Harris was the best score on the team for the moment he arrived. But Jackson back then was too immature to surrender that role. He's been very open about how much he feels he grew as a person and as a teammate during his time at Detroit.

And he did grow from kind of like an egotistical player, a very egotistical player who was just all about the spotlight. I think what he referred to is just being a scared kid. into by the time he left the pistons he wasn't nearly as effective thanks to injuries but he was a model teammate i think by the end and uh you know he went to the clippers he managed to recapture some of his previous form but he's he's playing in a reduced role that's more suitable to him he's become a pretty darn good three-point shooter and he provides some ball handling and secondary creation he had a good playoffs yeah yeah you look at other guys Like who are we thinking?

Like, I don't know, Marcus Morris. Marcus Morris was decent in his first season with the Pistons. He's just a heavy ISO guy now who shoots threes and takes, you know, phecitation pull-up jumpers and whatnot. He's playing much the same role he was in the Pistons. Drummond, I think it was less of, he was asked to play too much, than he was not willing to accept a role that was within the bounds of his abilities. And he was treated like royalty as the franchise player by Stan Van Gundy,

which is certainly no good for anybody. But, yeah, you're right. guys going and playing lesser roles, you know, they're better set up for success. These guys were not good enough to play substantial roles on a good team. Contabius called Bill Pope. Who else? Who else be thinking of? I mean, people, everybody mentions Chris Mills.

Actually, the thing that I'm, this is kind of shifting gears here, but as long as we're talking about this, like, not asking guys to play more than their actual role, I think this team still is missing their, maybe not secondary creator, but there's I still think there's a pretty gaping hole at shooting guard. The options there right now are Killian Hayes or Hamadu Diallo as things are projected right now. Or Josh Jackson. Yeah, but

probably not. Exactly. Yeah. So I still think that that's a need that should be addressed and that's obviously a big ask. Like the bucks had to pay a lot to get Drew Holiday. You just need a certain number of very good players. Like you were talking to me earlier about this, and you said you either need a superstar and two very good players, correct me if I'm phrasing this incorrectly, but superstar, two very good players or two stars.

Yeah, two superstars. Yeah, two superstars. And as good as Jeremy Grant is, I don't think that he's anywhere near a superstar. And if Cade projects to be, you know, your franchise superstar, reach his ceiling and he is that impact player. There's still a guy missing there.

I think Stewart and Bay are role players, and I think that they can play their roles very, very well and be very valuable. But if you ask them to do too much, I think the Pistons just need one more guy there. And that's not a need that needs to be addressed straight away this season. But I think that's something that they should look to address maybe next season when they have all this money come off the books because I just think that we don't have it all yet. I don't think that any amount of reasonable internal development is going to solve that problem. It would take Killing Hayes having an MIP season or any one of those guys.

It would take them winning the MIP award. And that's a big ask. So while they have this money coming off the books in 2022, if they have enough, maybe that's another factor. Maybe you don't want to project weakness at the end of the season and then go into free agency with some money. maybe you do want to finish strong. It's just another wrinkle. If you really think that finishing strong and maybe making the playoffs or the play-in is going to get you a better free agent, maybe that's just off the top of my head,

obviously. Maybe that's a factor that's something. If they really think that that will make a difference, maybe that makes winning these games a lot more valuable. Maybe they try a lot harder this season to prove to, you know, it's not a great list of free agents next summer in terms of who fits the pitch. Pistons timeline and who would reasonably fill this role that we're looking for. But maybe that is a factor.

Yeah, who knows. It's a possibility. I mean, of course, who's going to be available in 2022 is really pending a lot of factors. And, of course, who's going to want to come to the Pistons is one of those things. But I would say, as far as shooting guard goes, even in the context of next season, it's an important question. You don't want to bring Kate Cunningham in and have spacing problems. It's just not putting them in a position to succeed early on.

And it's really nice to put your rookies in a position to succeed in order to get, I mean, I don't think Kate Cunningham's a guy is ever going to struggle with confidence, but you want to put them in the best possible position to succeed. And, you know, you're likely starting Mason Plumley. It's not going to be able to space the floor. You absolutely cannot in the NBA today unless you have just an overwhelming amount of elite talent, like the Nets or like the Warriors did. But Durant, you can't dice a three-shoe.

ice this is for my hockey days my day excuse me my days uh being a big fan of hockey uh i'm still a fan of hockey i just don't watch it quite as much anymore uh you cannot feel the lineup with less than four shooters or you're just asking for your offense to have issues like significant issues of spacing isaiah stewart shot fairly well from three from much of last season he really tailed off near the end and started putting up some really really kind of ugly misses but you know I'm sure he'll work hard on it, assuming his ankle injury isn't bad. I mean, I'm guessing at the time of this recording, nothing has been heard, which I'm guessing means it was just a run-of-the-mill injury, hopefully.

But, you know, who knows? Maybe it becomes an effective floor spacer, and that's helpful for K, though. It basically means that Isaiah Stewart is just, you know, it's a pick-and-pop guy. You really like K to have a good pick-and-roll partner, though certainly he projects as being a good creator on his own. So, yeah, you really do want to have a shooting guard who can shoot or, you know, if we're assuming Kate is the primary ball handler. I mean, the position becomes less important, but you can be sure he'll play either wind up as a shooting guard or point guard, whatever. So if Killian Hayes can't shoot, it's kind of an issue.

Diello can't shoot. That's kind of an issue. Josh Jackson can't shoot right now either. And that's an issue. So you want to have a guy who is actually able to go out there and shoot. Maybe that's Frank Jackson. Or I guess, I mean, ideally one of those three guys gets it together. Yeah, I don't know if Frank Jackson is, I don't think you were suggesting that Frank Jackson's a long-term solution.

Oh, no, no, absolutely not. I'm just talking about it in the short term next season. Yeah, in the short term next season, just to put out as much shooting as you can on the court next to next to your first overall pick. Yeah, absolutely. But I'm thinking like long-term here. I know people really want Killian to be, you know, the two-guard, have him play off-off ball, or some people want Cade to be the off-ball guy. I think, in my mind, it's not really a discussion.

I think Cade is just too complete of a player and too impactful for him to not be anything other than, you know, the primary ball handler. And I think that's his most valuable use for the pistons. So what I'm looking for from this, like, second or third star is a guy who is a dynamic shot. shotmaker or a guy who can create his own and can hit motion threes. That's very important to me. As far as what you hope, this is obviously just another wish list. But if this guy can hit motion threes and shoulder the load a little bit, I think that's incredibly valuable. There's guys in this draft, and I'm sure there will be guys in the upcoming draft who have

upside as guys who can shoulder the load. And then, Killian Hayes even. I haven't been the biggest fan of him, but he can certainly handle the ball a little bit. If he wants to split the ball handling duties, that's certainly an option. My concern with Killian is more to do with his shot creation and his shot making.

We, you know, looking at his catch and shoot numbers this past season, obviously small sample size. It's not great, but there's potential there. But I would still just prefer, guy who has more in the way of, you know, come off of a screen, hit a difficult shot, hit a leaning three, that sort of thing. Because as good of a creator as Kate, it projects to be, it's still a lot better if you have another, you know, weapon on the perimeter away from him

that'll help him not get triple-teamed and double-team like his days at Oklahoma State. Well, I think you'll have Jeremy Grant's on the forum that'll help, and it also takes some of the creation duties off from him. Jeremy Grant's just, I mean, you can hand him. You can hand him the ball and asked him to do something with it. And in this past season, at least in the earlier stages, and in the middle of the season, he tailed off toward the end. But, you know, you can do a decent job of it. But I think he's best taking the ball while he's moving and doing something with it,

which is still a much more significant role than he would see in Denver, where it was basically, you know, cuts of the basket or take a spot up three. That was pretty much what he did. And he's proven that he's capable more than that. But, yeah, I'd say it starts. ends for Killian Hayes and the NBA in general with his three-point shot because, you know, if we've said it before, I've said it before rather, if he doesn't develop, you know, further than that, at least you've got kind of like a, so I think it'll be a capable defender, kind of a three

and D in past guy, which is, I would have considered disappointing if the Pistons hadn't been drafting high in this draft. But, you know, now is more acceptable, if certainly not ideal. Hopefully he won't be his contact averse in any event is like Lonzo Ball, who's the primary example of that archetype in the NBA right now. But if he can shoot, like he has to shoot. I mean, that's, if he can't, then the only place he's going is ultimately out of the NBA because it's just, it's just the necessary thing.

He's not the kind of player who can get away without a very few players can on the perimeter. and it's it's very unfortunate even these days if even a center can't do it it's not mandatory there but you know if you're a traditional center you're inherently taking away from the offense so yeah for him it starts and ends with shooting and if he can do that this season then cool you've got a guy whom you can start next to gate and you're good you know you know hopefully you see more development from kylian but as far as being on the ball we've talked about it before I know I keep saying that. But he's just, he's got a ways to go in order to become a viable ball handler.

It starts with shooting, of course. You know, any player who can't shoot, not only is it a lesser weapon along the perimeter for the, you know, super efficient shot, but it also means that it makes life difficult, more difficult for everybody else because they don't have to watch, they don't have to respect the perimeter as much. And that makes it much harder to find wins to the basket. So, yeah, but for Kalyan, in order to reach his ceiling. You got to shoot threes.

You got to have an in-between game. I've got to find ways to score at the basket. And certainly you've got to be able to use your right hand. Yeah. So. I don't know if you, I know he said that we weren't going to do these second rounder guys, but there's one that I wanted to bring up. And it's not really that I want this guy specifically,

but I thought for where he was projected to be picked up, I assume he got a first round promise just based on his combine. But one of the kind of late risers, in this pre-draft process was Bones Highland. And I would expect him to go mid-20s at this point. He was a second round guy before the combine, but he just ended up playing very well in the scrimmages, and he shot very well.

And I just think that his archetypal, I'll just briefly describe him. He played at VCU. He was a point guard. He wasn't great as a ball handler or as a passer, but one of his biggest strengths was really, really excellent shooting range. I think he finished the year shooting 37% on threes, but some of these triples were from like Dame and Trey Young Range.

And so if your percentage of suffer a little bit, that's fine. He's still shooting above league average, and he's doing it on like 25, 26, 27 footers. And I think there's a lot of advantage there. I think a guy like that, if you just ask him to play a reduced role, maybe he's not your point guard, he's just a secondary creator or secondary ball handler, or maybe you don't ask him to make these advanced reads.

He just has to make some basic recognition passes. I think that is very valuable because just watching his film, he was very comfortable on pull-ups, and it's not that he was coming off a screen at a ton, at least not in the videos that I watched, but it projects well that he's a guy who's comfortable creating his own shot off of movement, off of his own, you know, not off of without,

without help from others. And then the other thing that he did well was cut to the basket with a lot of effort. I think something like that, where even though he's projected to have less in the way of skill, I think the skills that he does have compliments Cade, maybe a little bit better. So maybe that's another consideration that the Pistons would have to make. Find the guys who maximize your potential superstar. I don't think it's wise to try to force the fit. I think it's better to maybe find a better fit around these fit-dependent players.

And it's not even that Kade is like a super-fit-dependent player. It's just you can slot in anywhere. It's just to make the most of him. It's like you said, you want to get three-point shooting around him. But I think dynamic three-point shooting would be ideal. You know, give him these targets that are moving around on the perimeter because I believe that Kade can be the guy who finds these moving guys who can make these dump-off passes when he does get position.

inside, there's just a lot of benefit in my mind to having guys who are more dynamic shock creators rather than trying to force the fit between some guys. I just think that we have a real opportunity here. So I would like it if they focused a little bit more on the fit at this point. I guess so. I mean, everybody wants dynamic shot creators, though. These aren't guys who grow on trees. So I think if they don't have those, it's a matter of can'ts rather than not making the effort.

Yeah, Highlands, not as big in him as you are. I don't really think quite as highly of kind of flamethrower-like players, which is, I think he projects as kind of like at this point is that sort of playing the role that Blue Williams did for the Clippers, maybe with West Passing, but a guy who kind of comes off the bench and takes shots on high volumes, I don't really like those change of pace players quite as much, in my opinion. The best players off the bench are guys who can come in and your offense doesn't change. Your offense can really just, they can step in and maybe you see a reduction in quality, but you're still running the same offense.

Nonetheless, what I would say in terms of, like if you look, for example, at what you need to win a championship team, like you need, like we said, you need either that superstar and two very good players or two superstar players in terms of offense. You need, it's just the game changes in the playoffs as well. I mean, individual creation becomes more important. You need your switchable, you know, athletic, ideally athletic 3&D wings. That was a big part of Miami getting into the finals.

And Miami managed to do it without, I mean, they bucked the mold a little bit. They didn't have those, those superstar players. You know, two superstar players who had Jimmy Bubler and goodness, who is the second best score on that team. I don't know. It wasn't anybody. Maybe Tyler Hero. Druggage, I don't even know. Probably Druggage.

But, I mean, they got there in Park because Janus went down and they beat the box in the second round. I mean, that was kind of a big deal. Yeah, whatever the case. Yeah, so you need those creators. You need your three-inded wings. It's really not good to have guys out there who are defensive liabilities. Like we've said, I mean, all offense is king. But in the playoffs, you need those switchable defenders.

If you have a liability in the floor, they're going to get mercilessly to our. targeted in isolation. And yeah, you need that proper spacing. You need to have as many play possibilities as you possibly can. So, yeah, those motion three-point shooters are possibly even more valuable in the playoffs. And, yeah, I mean, that's a big ask, of course. Yeah, we touched on the defense that we project to have, or the defense that is there if we keep killing it on.

but I'll be honest with you. Just going back to Highland, like his archetype, if he continues to shoot as well as he did, I think he could be a starter in the NBA, and that's a scorching take, I know, because this guy has projected late first round, but I think it's more to do with the role that he could play.

It's a more limited role, but I think that if he does that, especially around a guy like Cade, which not a lot of teams have, he could be started just because he projects to be such a good fit. The comp I've heard, I'm not trying to just ramble on about, this one guy for a super long time. I promise I have something in mind here. The comp I've seen

is manual quickly. There was Mike Schmidt's comp. A few other people have said that one to me. But I kind of envisioned him in the Tyrese Halliburton role. I think we can agree that if the Hawks had drafted Tyrese Halliburton or if Tyrese Halliburton was on a number of teams, he's not your star player, but what he does in terms of shooting and offball movement and just smart play is very, very valuable. He's an elite role player. Maybe he's not. Yeah, exactly.

Elite role player, but he's also just maximizing those dynamic scores around him. Stuff like that, I just think that even though they're not the best players, maybe they're not that second, very talented offensive player that you're looking for. I think they compliment your main guys so well that they make everybody better. That's kind of what I'm looking for here. rather when I say that you shouldn't try to force the fit. Maybe there are guys who, it's not that they're more talented, they just fit better. And I would like it if the Pistons or if the team would bring those kinds of guys in.

I know you hate it when I bring up the building principles of like the 04 team. But just the guys who are greater than the sum of their parts. And I know you're going to say every team, every championship team is supposed to be greater than the sum of its parts. but I just really appreciate seeing that sort of stuff rather than teams that just try to take the most talented guys that they have and try to force that fit. I know that we brought up the pelicans. I've never been a huge fan of the fit between Simmons and Embedd just because Simmons doesn't shoot. Embed is absolutely – I know he's great from everywhere on the floor, especially this past season, but I like him more in the paint just because nobody's stopping Embedde.

I think there would be benefit to moving on from Simmons in favor of a guy who is a better fit, more spacing. Obviously, this is in the modern NBA, obviously everybody's looking for shooting, everybody's looking for an above-average shooting lineup. But especially when you have a guy like Cade, it becomes all the more important. That's all I'm getting at here.

Of course, yeah, of course it's important. When it comes to the Sixers, yeah. Well, I mean, Ben Simmons, your perimeter player is unable to shoot and you're not dominant like Janus, for example. It's a problem. I mean, it's been a problem since he came into the NBA. And, yeah, I don't doubt that the Sixers did not expect it to go this way. And, yeah, if you could shoot, then, I've said it before, I'll say it again.

You know, you've got certainly like a top 10 player in the NBA who can, who's very strong in the weight of the basket. And is a pretty darn good passer and is an elite defender. you can very ably defend four positions. So yeah, it's just the difference is just the shooting there. And unfortunately he doesn't have it. And I think he's, you know, you have the sixers saying, well, you know, he's finally, there's more or less the undertone. He's finally going to, you know, got a plan to become a better shooter.

You know, believe it when you see it. And trading it right now, you're not going to, I think, get anywhere near equal value. But, yeah. You've done Simmons for C.J. McCollum trade. I think that would benefit both teams. I don't think it would benefit. both teams at all because you've got your issue with portland is you've got very just you know circumstances whatever you say management or whatever have contrived to leave the the trailblazers with not nearly

enough creation and you've got your two creators at the guard positions that's not ideal i don't think the column and and willard really compliment them each other nearly as well as say like an elite score on the wing. Of course, those are stone exactly growing trees either, but you take McCollum out. You've got one guy who can create and your starting lineup has awful spacing. Of course, if Simmons can shoot, that's a different story. But he can't right now and you can't count on him doing so. So you've got, you've got Willard and that's pretty much it. You've got to play McCollum next to, excuse me, you've got to play Simmons next to use of Nurkich. And yeah, I don't think. that's a good trade for either of them because, you know, yeah, your defense gets better,

but your offense gets considerably worse. But getting back to the pistons, like the 04 pistons, for example, yeah, I completely agree that. I mean, I think it's beyond question that team was significantly more than the sum of its parts. It was a team of, you know, back in the era when you could win on defense, just swarming defenders of guys who could play high-level defense, well, maybe Hamilton a little bit less, but he was still certainly capable. you had four shooters you know waste after a fashion the rip hamilton being the master of the midrange game of course back then you didn't have a requirement of x number of three-point shooters in the floor but whatever the case yeah it was the dean that was more than the sum of its parts and and that was what made it successful you know even after ben wallace left and even though the pistons were really on the downturn certain you know significantly on the downturn by the time the chonsie billups trade occurred that that's that's definitely yeah of course it's just important. And yeah, to building a team that fits well together and fits well around

whoever your franchise player is absolutely vital. Completely agree. All right. So that's going to be it for today's episode. We're going to post one more episode prior to the draft. Of course, after the draft, we'll have plenty of coverage as to how it went. You know, our thoughts on it. And there's not a significant gap actually this season. It's shorter than usual, I believe. Between the draft and Summer League, draft is on the 29th of July, and Summer League begins on the 8th of August. It should definitely be good.

There will definitely be pistons of interest there, to say the least. I don't think Bay or Stewart will play. It's very rare to see an all-rooky team player go into Summer League for more than like a game or two tops. In any event, yeah, if you have any ideas for future content, we always appreciate those. If you're on the Pistons Discord, just ping one of us, Try Piston subreddit or on Twitter at To the BasketPod.

Always appreciate that and it'll be doubly appreciated going into the offseason as there is for anybody creating content a significant dead period after Summer League and heading really pretty much into whenever you get to preseason, which is in September or wait early October this season. So whatever the case, as always. Thank you everybody for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.