Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 53: Final draft thoughts & the bigger picture (featuring guest host 6Man)

Episode Date: July 28, 2021

This episode, featuring special guest host Wes (6Man on YouTube), discusses final thoughts on the draft and on the bigger picture for the Pistons moving forward.    (Reuploaded after fixing an audio error -- apologies for the mix-up!) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, everybody. Welcome to Drive Into the Basket. I am Mike, and I'm actually recording this in post-production, so to speak. For those of you who are either listening to the episode this morning, this is the day it was released, and had it cut off in the middle of the episode, or for those of you who have already listened to it and are seeing it show up again in your podcast feed, I found out this morning a few hours after posting the episode that I released it with a pretty significant audio error. This is just something that happened during editing. There was a collection of sort of protracted silences that were interspersers. throughout the episode. So of course, wanted to take it down right away, fix it, and get it re-uploaded. So apologies for the mess up. Definitely going to take steps to make sure that doesn't happen again in the future. We really value all of you and we want to give you the best possible listening experience we can. So with that, let's get to the episode. Hello, everybody. You are listening to Driving the Basket. It's part of the Basketball Podcast Network. I am Mike. I am here with Tommy and Dante and our special guest for this episode. Wes, otherwise known as six man on YouTube. Wes, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Yeah, we've been looking forward to it also. So we're just going to get the ad out of the way right here. So just a quick word from our sponsors at Draft Kings. You've heard us talk about Draft Kings, the leader in daily fantasy sports. And now a payday can come every day by entering their contests with huge cash prizes up for grabs. Making a lineup on Draft Kings adds excitement to every night and it's extremely simple to do. Just draft your lineup, feel the sweat, and make every moment mean more with a Draft Kings lineup on the line. Draft Kings has paid out over $7 billion to users all across sports.

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Australian pistons fan in terms of how he became a pistons fan which a lot of people have me from making Pistons content. I wish there was a better story, but basically just have family in Michigan. A couple people lived there. Dad spent a few years there growing up when he was a kid. Granddad was there as well, as you'd imagined. And that's kind of the extent of it, really. Not that I fell in love with Stanley Johnson or something. And that just blossomed my love for it. It was more so just about a family thing. I'm surprised you didn't fall in love with Stanley Johnson. That's...

Well, yeah. Yeah, I tried my best too. That did happen as well. I think I was a good player. Yeah, 100%. I mean, it was honestly, for my family, it was just all about the moments that we saw Henry Ellenson's number. On draft night, we were like, this is the team we have to support.

Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, why don't you tell us about the YouTube channel, your own. Yeah, basically just NBA type content. Try to switch it up a little bit, but Pistons, good theme, obviously haven't been talking about them as much, but during the regular season, any excuse, if they beat like a good team, we'll make note of it. Um, Seku Dumoya, Kili and Hayes,

all of those things, try to, um, push the narrative a little bit that those guys aren't busts in the first seven games, those kind of things that I like to talk about. Yeah, some stuff like that. All right. Fair enough. Yeah, who's your, who's your, excuse me, your favorite player currently on the roster, would you say? It's actually a good question. I've thought about that a few times, but there's not one that like immediately jumps out to me. Not that I dislike anyone, but at the same time, in terms of just favorite player, a fan of Killian, liked what he did in terms of his playmaking, and I think he does have a path to being a good player defensively shooting. I guess Isaiah Stewart.

it's a good answer as well. One of the rookies, I'd say. Probably just, just combine them all, I guess. Fair enough. Just, I'm not sure if I, if I made this quite clear. So his, his channel is called Six Men, the number six men on YouTube for those of you're interested in some good NBA content. Yeah, so obviously we're coming up on the draft here. How do you feel about where the pistons are in general? I mean, even just even irrespective of the fact we got number one overall pick coming up. I know you've been making content for a while and probably it wasn't too pleasant necessarily. It'll be doing so about the pistons there for a few years. In terms of the pistons, I do love the position where, and obviously with the number one pick,

that's huge. I think Cade, spoiler alert, yeah, I'd take Cade. I think Cade just fits what we're doing right now in terms of Sadiq Bay, Jeremy Grant, the outline of those 3-&D guys. Troy Weaver got a lot of faith in him as opposed to what we had before. Dwayne and Casey, I don't know if he's the greatest coach, but I also don't think he's a terrible coach, which is decent for now. So I like what we're doing. I'm not saying we're going to be the next dynasty, but it's potential. Yeah, absolutely. All right, I guess at this point, let's transition to a bit of draft stuff.

The draft will, or is coming out very quickly by the time we post this episode. We usually post on Tuesdays. It'll be about 48 hours away. So, yeah, I know, Wes, you are a fan of Cade. Like, how was it for you when, you know, were you watching the draft lottery when it happened? I was. It was, I think, about 11 a.m. over here, so decent, decent time to watch it. And, I mean, happy.

It wasn't crying or anything, nothing crazy. But it was, it was more shock because I was not expecting it. I guess pessimism from being a Pistons fan. But, yeah, I did not enter it. participate getting the number one overall pick. I was just like once those envelopes top four, I'm like, just get it over and done with give us the fourth pick. And then it continued on. I'm like, this doesn't seem real, but it happened. So yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, all right. So yeah, we can move on talking about more, yeah, I guess just more dedicated draft stuff.

I know all of us are happy to see the draft finally be here. You know, who know that having the number on a pick would be such a burden. It's just so hard, of course, just terribly, terribly difficult being the team that has to pick first overall in an incredibly strong draft. It's tough. Heavy's the head that wears the crown, right? Yeah, absolutely. 100%. So, yeah, I know all of us probably are pretty tuned into the press conference that was had yesterday. I think Evan Mobley and I don't know if Jalen Green spoke.

Jay did, of course. I think Monday. Monday, gotcha. Yeah, so Cade spoke. He had a lot of good things to say about Detroit. Now, what do you guys think about? What were you guys' impression of that? It's just nice to see someone embrace the city, right?

Because I think we touched on this on a prior episode. It's like being excited to come to Detroit is not to be all end all. I mean, Stanley Johnson was excited. Henry Ellenson was excited. Probably Michael Binajay was excited as well. It doesn't mean that they're going to make an impact. But at the same time, someone of Cade's status and caliber, it's nice to see not only him, but his family, you know, his, his brother's gotten kind of Pistons Twitter and Pistons Reddit famous for answering all these DMs. And he's been very candid and forthright with fans showing him love.

And his cousin, who happens to be his trainer as well, he showed up to the Tigers game with Cade. And obviously there was that big chant at Comerica Park. So it's nice to see the love kind of coming from them. and then they're receiving love back. And it's just a really nice cycle. I've been having a lot of fun watching it. Yeah, definitely. There was a quote that somebody asked him about that.

Somebody asked Kate about that. James Edwards tweeted this out coming in on the Comerica Park cheering. They showed a lot of love. That type of stuff means a lot. And I remember dreaming about being a top guy. That stuff still gives me chills. I'm appreciative of it. So it's definitely very excited to see that type of love for a player,

especially before they were drafted. I don't know if we remember anything like that happening before. but it's nice that the city's not kind of apathetic to this. Like they're embracing him. They're cheering from a Macoamerica Park. And it's nice that we absolutely routed their team when he got to visit. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Like, you know, when there's nothing that excites the team more,

excuse me, fans of a team more than consistently picking in the Woe Watery. I mean, that's just still the Mid to Woe Watery. You know, it's just great. When you're on every summer, it's saying, absolutely, this is awesome. We're going to have a mediocre pick in the lottery. And, you know, we just got done with another unsuccessful season. Like, let's do this. And it's like you go to Comerica Park and you hear all these fans shining,

you're like number eight pick, number eight pick. Say who, say, who. Yeah, I don't think he was quite enough to get people excited. Yeah. Oh, bad. No, I completely agree with you guys. It is nice. And honestly, and this is a thing we've also talked about before,

but really it kind of becomes even more apparent when you've got the fan base so riled up is that, look, Stafford traded, McGie getting a little bit older. And the Red Wings obviously are in the middle of a rebuild right now. It's very likely that Cade's not just the face of the Pistons. He's the face of Detroit Sports. And given that, you know, it's a lot of pressure to heap on a 19-year-old. But every single interview that I've seen, every single piece of, you know, media content that's come out regarding KD, you know, pre and post lottery, he seemed nothing but, like,

he seems to have nothing but the utmost level of maturity, right? I feel pretty confident that he can be that guy to shoulder that enormous burden, and I'm just extremely excited for it. Yeah, it's just the composure that's impressive, isn't it? Because he just seems like someone that's ready to be a leader. Like, he's already been a leader at college. He's already shown off those tendencies. And I think that's the kind of guy we've got, because we've got so many guys that hard workers, that's the kind of mold. I know Troy Waver was looking for. Like with the Sadiq Bayes, the Isaiah Stewart, even Killeen Hayes to a degree, Saban Lee, those guys. But we need someone who can just come in there and be a lead to takeover and clutch time.

We really struggled down the stretch of games, which ended up getting us Kade. So we're not going to complain, but that's the kind of guy we need. So Kade shows all of those things on and off the court, which I think is huge. For sure. And Jalil Okafor can't do it on his own. He's got us so far. I'm going to say for some help. Yeah.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, and we've said it before. I know I've said it before, definitely. It's very nice to have a guy who can conceivably do a great job leading your offense, but also be that leader, like an actual leader. Like if you look at the typical guys around the league who are the star creators, like LeBron, of course, is a team leader. You know, there's no doubt about that.

But James Harden, you know, he might know the way to every strip club and every NBA city, but he's not, he's probably not the most inspiring guy, you know, trying to really get his teammates behind, behind the game plan and get them motivated and just be a leader in the locker room. Luca, who knows, but I don't think that's him either. And I'm not saying Kay it's going to come in. Hopefully he's a guy like, you know, like Luke or whoever else,

or not whoever else. I know people have really looked at Luca and said, well, they've got some similarities. Who knows? I'm not setting my expectations that high. But, yeah, if you look at like the Red Wings, their last four championship teams. For the most part,

well, really, on every one of those teams, I mean, at least two out of the top three players, two of the top three best players, them thinking Fedorov wasn't really a leader, but,

like, Widstrom was the best player. Wittstrom, Dotsug and Zetterberg, the best players on your last Red Wings team, and those were all leaders, you know, really,

Widstrom in particular, Wittstrom and Zetterberg. Like, Eisenman was the best player on the team for a long time. he was absolutely just an excellent leader in the locker room. It's a very good thing to have. And of course, Troy Weaver has done his best even in one year, you know, even one year into the rebuild to stock the team with guys like that.

Yeah, well, it's a reason why teams are still interested in trading for Kyle Lary, even though he's, what, 36 now, six-foot guard. You've got Chris Paul kind of a cliche thing now, but he did make a huge impact on the Sons through leadership and obviously on the court playmaking. But yeah, every team needs that guy. that can take over down the stretch. Just communication is huge,

Dremont Green. The Warriors were like a top tier defense without having any other notable great defenders like Wiggins is decent, but you see the impact of these kind of guys have, whether it's communication on the court play star, just all of those things. And I think Kay,

it's got a number of those things, which is promising. Sure he does. I absolutely agree with you. And people don't quite realize probably the impact that good leadership has until there's been a dearth of it. Right.

And so we've been, watching the Andre Drum and Reggie Jackson Pistons for a lot longer that any of us wanted to watch that for. And that's that's particularly poor leadership, right? And this, this sort of, I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it toxicity, but it's definitely not the optimal environment, right? Not for young players. You know, we saw Luke Kinnard just was not confident at all.

And that's not something. To the extent of which that's his fault, unless a product of his environment, I couldn't tell you because I'm not a sports psychologist. but it's pretty clear that young players weren't making great strides under that team, and the team wasn't succeeding as a whole. And so it's so nice to have somebody come in or presumably come in who, like Mike said, not only is the best player, but is the best leader. And those things sort of mesh together well, and we're going to have to see what happens.

But I'm a lot more optimistic about the future than I was about these recent years here. It hasn't been too fun. Yeah, you had Blake Griffin who did it, you know, to certainly it is credit to the best by all accounts he could in the locker room. For sure. And as a leader in general. But yeah, prior to that, I mean, of course, the stand bang on the air pistons at all sorts of problems.

I mean, this is what happens when you build a team around Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond. Yeah, and Jackson, to his credit, you know, for his last three seasons with the team, you know, really developed into a model teammate. But, you know, he was never a leader, obviously Drummond. Yeah, hopefully we'll be leading himself over to China or something. So I don't have to watch him in the NBA anymore. Yeah. I mean, yeah, those are, any listeners to the podcast, you know, I'd strongly dislike Drummond.

Not only, not only because he was not really, did not pan out for the pistons, but whatever. The reason I dislike him is because of his attitude, his mental outlook. Yeah, well, I can't say I disagree with that on Drummond's. Yeah, I've talked about it before, but he's just, I mean, the numbers are one thing, but you see the impact. I mean, we finally got to see it for the Lakers. Everyone was hyping him up as though he'd make a huge impact. and then, well, played, what, 15 minutes behind a 35-year-old Marcosol, who's, what, 300 pounds. Come on now.

No, just those flaws are really magnified when you get on the national stage, right? And so people just kind of saw the box score and they were like, okay, look what he's contributing. But it's like we've said so many times before, your contributions on the stat sheet might not necessarily be indicative of your contributions to actually winning basketball games and with Drum. and that was like insanely apparent. And now everybody saw, right? So I wonder if the Shanghai Sharks are paying attention. We'll see. We'll find out.

Yeah. Well, they have, what's his name? Like, I don't know, this is like a 2K joke. Like the Flying Tiger or something like that. What does it? I don't know. Oh, that was, you're going back to like. No, no, no.

There was, this is really random. But I know, and I haven't played 2K for a while, but there was this guy who kind of became a meme. he was the flying tiger no i don't know what his name was what his name was but yeah he he was this guy in career mode who was like this incredible player you had to face off against i don't know if he was in the cba or what but uh in any events he's not actually real so it's kind of a moot point yeah that said yeah so i yeah it's we've talked about how nice it's been to see the culture overhaul and certainly yeah certainly that's been very striking

and you know you give some credit to dwayn casey of course but you got to have the right personnel you just got to have the right personnel uh you put dwayne casey in charge of you put any coach in charge of certain players and it's just not going to happen for you well i mean we saw it with what thon maker zasaw petulia glen robinson and that was rough that was about these names were scared me man thon was a hard worker yeah thom was a hard worker you give that to him he just wasn't good at anything actually down the road for me he was spotted a few times the local gym, PCIAC. Yeah, so there you go. I can't say too many bad things about him, but yeah. You might show up in your room if you started doing that.

Oh, absolutely. We'd be happy to have Thon on the show. I mean, we've, we've said some uncomplimentary things about him. What I'll say about the guy is, he's a super hard worker, and by all accounts, he's a great teammate. Also, somebody said he's sweat, his sweat is green. Somebody who was like, yeah, it was like a ball boy in the NBA, who talked about a bunch of stuff. I think he was actually worked in the palace or an LCA because he had all sorts of nice things to say about Reggie Jackson. But yeah, he said that Thon's sweat was greenish in color, which I don't know. Glad I know that. Yeah, I guess.

I mean, that's not really an Australian thing from knowledge. Yeah. Yeah, whether it's true or not, I don't think it really matters. But apparently, whatever the case. So, yeah, do you think Thon has a few. future in the in the mbl nbl i mean sure why not i think that's probably the next spot for him i'd imagine unfortunately but it could be probably get paid more in china that is that is true as well yeah and yeah we'd be actually when we were talking about emin mowgli i don't know if we made reference to this

for some guys it's just really hard to put on muscle i don't doubt that thon worked hard and ate like a zillion calories a day but you know just genetically speaking some people are not predisposed or putting on that kind of mass. So I know we talked about with that with Mobley, like, oh, this guy's probably going to have to put on like 20, 30 pounds of, you know, 20 to 30, 40 pounds of muscle and a muscle of weight here, and it might not be easy for him. But, uh, yeah. All right. Let's move on to the actual draft coming up. That's on, on Thursday the 29th, that ate Eastern. Of course, the Pistons will be called first. I'm sure we're all tired of hearing trade rumors. Yeah, I have a question for you guys. So I think everybody is kind of expecting the Pistons to make a trade up into the late first.

And whether or not that happens, I think we've kind of talked about it's not a guarantee here. Do you guys think Troy would make some aggressive trade, like something way out of left field and try to trade back into like the teens? This isn't me going off on book night, but some of the guys that they were interviewing were just, they were not top four or five guys, but they were also just presumed to be like all over the place. Like Keon Johnson was a guy that the Pistons interviewed. And I get that they're being thorough. But I don't know. Still, that was surprising to me to see because obviously they've been, it seems like they've been a lot more secretive this year about everything going on, whether it's the Isaiah Stewart injury or who they're talking to or who they're interviewing. I know James Edwards was talking about how they're not getting like these email updates that they ordinarily would, new regime, new tendencies, I guess.

But do you guys foresee anything like that? Do you think they would make a big move on draft night? I don't see how they have the assets to do so. unless you're trading like Killian would probably be would probably have been a pick in the mid-teens maybe a little outside the lottery in this year's draft with how strong it is

and he remains an upside pick because he didn't really prove or disprove anything last year besides the fact that he needs a lot of work so I don't think he's really going to get you far I don't think I think Sidique Bay and Isaiah Stewart are firmly off the table and Seku is remains a project also he was a guy who came in and really wasn't it was just by pure happenstance that he ended up in the NBA these past two years I think he wasn't at all expected to be there he was expected to be kind of like a two years down the line super raw give him a ton of developed player so I don't think he has much value either and Houston for the moment effect until it conveys oh and basically owns the piston's first run pick and for trade purposes until like 2027 so you can't trade that at the moment so what do you

offer. Those three second round picks are not going to get you deep into the first round. I'm not convinced that they'll get the pissants into the first round at all rather than just higher in the second round if there's somebody they really like. So yeah, who Tommy would you say they could actually trade to get to the teens? I could see them trading Sadiq. I wouldn't like it, but I do think that out of the current projected starting five, he's probably got the lowest ceiling. And even though he has probably the most projectable skill set in terms of being useful, I could see that happening. I'm not predicting that. I just feel like last year, Troy made a couple of really big moves and obviously he doesn't have the flexibility that he had in that offseason or in that cycle. But if there was going to be a

guy that was going to get moved for like a big trade, I could see it being Sadiq. I love Sadiq Bay. Obviously, I just, that's what I feel like could happen. Yeah, I'm sure Dante doesn't like me trading away his All-Star. I don't. I don't. I felt like this like just deep dread, just bubbling up in my chest at the thought of trading Sadiq. And my issue with it is not that I think any player on the roster is untouchable. You know, Troy has made it pretty clear that everybody has a price and good executives, you know, are going to operate under the

assumption that if we get some kind of Godfather off or we'll trade everybody. But my issue with trading Sadiq is that, okay, you picked him. He surprised everyone with how good he was. You know, people figured he'd be NBA ready, but he was, he was excellent. You know, he was an all-rokey first team player. a great complimentary piece at the bare minimum, no doubt moving forward. And then, okay, you trade him for what?

So you can drop someone who's you hope to be as good as him. Like it just doesn't make too, too much sense to me unless it's for a preexisting star. And even then is Sadiq really someone who moves the needle. So not only would I not want to see that happen, I kind of have trouble working out the logistics of why that might happen and then the motif behind it. Yeah, I tend to agree with Dante. just for the fact that when you think about a Cade, as of right now, is the future of the

pistons, clearly. And when you think about what he needs, he needs guys that can shoot. He needs the guys in that mold of Sadiq Bay. You might not need someone alongside Kate, hopefully, if all things go to plan, if he can be that primary creator, you might not need someone who puts the ball on the floor a ton, but if you can move to the right spots, spot up and shoot 40%, which is what Sadiq was doing in just year one, just about, and just improve his game defensively. Obviously, was decent as well. So they might not have that all-star potential, but purely off what Cade needs and what we're hoping Cade is. He seems like a perfect fit already. Perfect fit might be a little bit hyperbole, but you get the point. Yeah, I don't think he's moving either. I mean, at this point,

it's like I'm not, I'm always on on record as you know, you say, of course, talent's going to trump culture to a degree provided your culture isn't terrible. And I'm not as high, I'm not as big on or as optimistic on base ceiling as I know Dante as I know you are. But I don't see him moving unless it's for somebody really good because he's a player, you know, he's going to come in and contribute even, like I assume he'll get better than he was this season, but just as kind of an as an all-around player, like you'd be taking a significant risk, trading him away for somebody in the teens, where, unless you think like super high of that guy's upside. because if you, I mean, if you were to give people a crystal ball in this draft and, you know, say,

okay, we're going to, you know, time travel and have Sadiq be born a year later. And he's going to be in this draft. And this is exactly what he's going to look like in his rookie year. I believe he, you know, I'd say he might be like the ninth or tenth pick in this draft. So, yeah, I don't think he's worthwhile to move into the teens. If you're moving much higher than great. But just given how murky. the outlook becomes after like pick six or seven maybe.

Yeah, I just, I don't know if I'd make that trade it for anybody but like the basically the slam dunks. Yeah, this is obviously, this is just off the top of my head. But I don't know, Troy is definitely not the sort of guy who's afraid to go after a guy that he wants. And I don't think that he's, obviously he's not trading Sadiq just to trade Sadiq. This is like, all right, we really, really like one of these guys like in the Kion Johnson range. I don't think that you make that trade. But obviously, like, if they're. They really believed in a guy.

Like, Kian is just the example. This guy is obviously, he broke the record for Max Burt and the combine, 48 inches. If they think that they can get a guy like him, that kind of upside, that hyperathletic guard wing, who their shot isn't there yet. He's basically another Hamadu Diallo if you want to put a player comp on him. If he's, like, really high on someone like that, and he thinks Sadiq Bey can get him, like, would you make that trade?

Like, Wes, you made a great point. Yes. If you're trying to maximize Cade, obviously you need the floor spacing around him. But like we said, Sadiq doesn't have the highest ceiling. I'm not suggesting that we trade Sadiq. Let me make that clear. I love the guy. But I could see something like this happening in this draft just because it is Troy Weaver.

He definitely went all out last year in the draft. Yeah, I do agree. If you just look at what Troy's ammo is in just one year, I mean, he doesn't mind taking a risk. He already got rid of Kinnard, pretty much overhauled the whole roster. There's quotes of him saying, like, there's no point in him. just sitting around. He's not afraid to take the trade. So in essence, that kind of trade would not surprise me. Probably not Sadeek this year, I wouldn't think, just because, as I said, Cade, if you're trying to maximize Cade in year one and build him up, Sadeek just seems like almost the

perfect option as opposed to pretty much anyone you could get in the draft, unless you're just unreasonably high on someone, like, as you said, a Kion Johnson or someone of that mild. Yeah, I just don't see it. I don't see Temptrating Bay. I don't see him. I don't see him. I'm trading Stewart. And really there's nothing else that's going to get you to move up in this draft. Like, we can talk about, like, expect, well, not just, I think there are certain things that should be not expected from this draft. Like, for example, and I think that that's along the lines of what you're talking about

right now. The Pistons are currently in terms of assets, which they can, are likely at all to trade versus, you know, just overall assets. They're pretty asset poor at the moment. Can't trade a future first. You shouldn't anyway if you're the pistons. But if you look at the prospect, you got, yeah, Stuart, I think is not going anywhere at the moment at Bay.

I don't think he's going anywhere. Killian, like maybe, but I don't think he has, he's kind of on the other side. It's not going anywhere, but he doesn't have much value. Saku doesn't have much value. Josh Jackson and Mason Plumley are not going to move you up in the draft. I feel pretty strongly about that. So what did the Pistons really have to offer?

unless you're trading Jeremy Grant, which I think is very unlikely. Yeah, I agree. That's unlikely. I just think that if you're really trying to project out what these guys can be, I think we do need more talent on the roster, and the best place to get it is the draft in my opinion. Well, obviously, you need more talent. I mean, that goes without saying,

but you got to give up value to get value, and the pistons all they can trade right now is roster players. Yeah, I agree. I don't think they're going to trade Stewart. I think he's just too important to the team culture, but three and D guys, I feel like you can get them at reasonable prices. A question I had for you guys, if you want to finish off like a thought on, on Sadiq Bay, but I do have another one for you, another name, whether you trade him or not.

But go ahead, Dante. Just one thing more on the Sadiq. Also, they did trade up in the first place to get him. Did they not? They traded into the first round with Kinnard. Yeah, they traded four second rounders and Kinnard, yeah. So that's kind of all I wanted to add, just in terms of Troy obviously seemed to, he seemed to be his guy.

So it kind of be funny to go against that after one year of him. performing up to expectations. That's a good point and that's something that, Wes, if you didn't say it, I was going to bring it up as well. I agree with you, Tommy, that Troy's Emo, obviously, is to target, aggressively target players that he values or players that he perceives to be good fits for the team. But then the reverse of that or the flip of that is that the players who are already on the team now, given the fact that he gutted the roster completely and rebuilt it up essentially in his own image, he wanted all of these players.

You know, he made some pretty significant maneuvers to get Bay, to get Stewart. And so you got to wonder, okay, does he just now then fall in love with someone else and Bay and Stewart become expendable? Or could it be that he views these players as foundational pieces that he wants to, you know, have as the core of his team? So that's probably one of the reasons that I find it extremely unlikely, not only for him to trade them in general, but especially not after a year, you know, later, if that makes sense. I think that they've certainly built some value just on the back of the rookie performances.

And I think that if something really good were to come up, like if somebody were to say, and this is completely outside the realm of possibility, but it's like, oh, yeah, sure, you know, for Sadiq Bay and, you know, Killian Hayes will trade you like the fifth pick in this draft. It's like, okay, well, yeah, sure, you know, thank you guys for your service. And good luck on your new team, in which case that would be the magic, presumably. And it's like, well, I'm sorry to be sending you to Orlando, but, you know, this really is the hardest part of the job and blah, blah, blah, and good luck to you. But I just don't think that there's any realistically attainable asset in this draft that would be worthwhile. Because, like, you see after, like, after seven at the latest, once you've gone through, of course, Cade Green, Mowbly, Suggs, Barnes, Cumanca, and I think book nights almost, you know, he sees he's going to be very high up there too.

I know a lot of people are very high on him. And he has excellent potential if he can just get that three point shut down. After that, I mean, is there anybody who's definitely worthwhile to be making a big splash for it? And I don't think Sadiq's going to get you into the, it's necessarily likely to get you like in the number seven or eight even. But is that worthwhile for a guy who's not a known quantity versus somebody who you feel pretty confident about going forward is going to contribute at a good level, if not a high one?

Well, even at five, was what you proposed Killian and Sadiq for the fifth thick? Is that the hypothetical you'd used? Oh, well, that's completely, I wouldn't call it a hypothetical because it's absolutely unrealistic that anybody would trade number five, I think, for that package. I wouldn't know. I wouldn't do. Maybe this is a hot take. No, the Warriors aren't moving number seven for it. Like, Bay is good, but they're not, you know, he's a good player, but I don't think they're moving number seven for some, you know, for a package.

So that does not mean immediate help on a significant level. Like maybe Jeremy, maybe we're talking Jeremy Grant, Sadiq Bay and Killian Hayes. I don't think I couldn't see the Warriors having any interest in that package for number seven. Fair enough. I don't know. I kind of disagree. I wouldn't do that trade.

I don't know if that's like crazy. I wouldn't trade Bay and Killian for number five because then you're looking at what, like Keon Johnson or Jonathan Cummenga or something like that. Let's say it's Book Knight, a guy that we know the Pistons really liked. It's Book Knight or it's Scotty Barnes. one of the two. Yeah, I wouldn't. Or if, yeah, or maybe, you know, if you're trading Kalyan and Jalen sucks is still available there, you'd take Jalen sucks. The point where I would start to consider, you know, doing those with these young foundational pieces is the top four. That's when I would do it. I wouldn't

make that trade for number five, not for book night, not for comming, not for whatever. I think you guys may be underselling Sadiq's value a little bit. And let's not forget too, Kate has repeatedly said, well, not Kate, but, you know, his brother in these leaked DMs here saying that he's very excited to play with Sadiq and the two of them are friends. And I'd sort of like to see that progress and play out. I think Sadiq is going to play a big role in the restoration of the pistons. And I think that the idea that he's reached his ceiling and this is what he is, is built on some preconceived notions that he came in as an NBA ready prospect. And therefore, he can't improve.

And you guys know that that's something that I completely disagree with. I think that Sadiq can be even better than he has been and therefore increase his value further. Yeah. All right. Well, then let's move on. to the one guy that Weaver has kept around to this point. Seiku Dumboya, a guy who a lot of people want to move on from after two years. What do you think? Like, let's say, I don't know what his value would be. I'm not going to try to put a value on him, but are you looking to move on from Seiku?

The way I say with Seiku is just, I don't see any point in getting rid of him unless there's just some team that has some unreasonable love for Seiku that wants to trade, what, a late first round pick, which obviously wouldn't happen. He did show some signs towards the end of the season as well. It's not like it was a completely lost season. Like he started to show some signs in transition. There was one transition block where I think he chased someone down from the three point line in our three point line to the other side of the floor against the blazes, I believe. So he did show some signs. I don't know how good he's going to be, but at the same time, you're trading him at the lowest possible value. I don't know if there's any suitors. It just doesn't seem to make a ton of sense to me to trade him.

I agree. I think it's worth reiterating that on draft night, it was made very clear in 2019 on draft night. It was made very clear this was an upside pick. That second in Boya is not a player you're drafting for right now. He's a player you're drafting for down the line. And he was like an extreme upside pick. This is a guy who only began playing basketball in any sort of really organized level, I believe, at age 13. He didn't come in ready for the NBA. And he just didn't. And that was fine. He was a player who was selected for the future. So he ended up. in the rotation in his rookie season because Blake Griffin got injured. I think if I remember correctly, Markief Morris had an injury as well. And that's both of your power forwards. So Sacco ended up in the lineup. He stayed there because the Pistons pivoted to a rebuild. And then last year there was no G league. Guy would have been in the G league. So, and it's in dire way possible he will be in the G league. But when, you know, especially when you're like those two points you brought up, you know, first West. Yeah, that he's at the lowest, he's at the lowest, he said his lowest ab like right now in terms of value. Like that's the worst time to trade.

him. I mean, if you're talking about what you can get out of him, balanced against his potential upside. But also, your team with the pistons are at a point at which they are in patience and develop mode. Like, this is the perfect upside prospect. You give this guy time and you see how it works out because I think he still does have potential. He's still a pretty darned athletic guy with a good, you know, he's long as 6-11 wingspan. And I think his weakest point will always be playmaking because I think he's just not good at passing for others. But if they're making place for others or just making reads off the drive, but if this is a guy who's just shooting threes, cutting to the basket, and he's a very good offball mover and playing decent defense, you know,

great. That's fantastic. I'll take it. And I think the fact that he was selected as an upside pick may have kind of given the misconception that it's like, well, it's star or bust for this guy. And that's not true. If you pick this guy and you're a team, team that's looking to the future, like maybe you expect more out of him if you're the pistons who are still trying to compete, which was the case in 2019 after, you know, after Blake Griffin's all NBA season, you know, for better or worse. But ultimately at number 15, if you get a guy who's coming in and giving you like 16, 18 minutes a night at a good level, that's an excellent, you know, that's a good value. You've done well. So I don't think he needs to

be this like really good player in order to, in order to justify keeping him. Yeah, you touched on a briefly, but just to go back to the G-League thing, I remember looking at the stats now. I'm not comparing the two players because I'm not saying they're actually alike, but I do remember looking at the stats. Remember, Saku and his first year in the G-League was effectively like the draft prospect age because he's December really young in terms of his draft class. His numbers were very, very similar to Jalen Green in his first year in the G-League. Again, not comparing the players, but Saku was putting up some impressive numbers in the G-League.

I think just for him in terms of obviously saying he's new to basketball, trying to find his way when you're trying to work off the ball and just trying to get a couple of shots here and there, not really getting a chance to drive to the room attack. Like, you see him freed up in the G league and you can see that potential. It's just trying to slowly integrate his way into the main team without obviously handling the ball to the degree he would like. So there is potential there. It's just we haven't been able to see it as much in the first team this year in particular.

Yeah, I definitely agree with you. I brought that one up because I've seen a few different publications kind of talk about Seiku being one of the likely guys to be moved. I think part of that is just that he's not a guy that Weaver brought in. He was just a carryover from the previous regime. And the other part is that, yeah, I agree with you, Wes, I think that the fact that we have a G-League team that we can use this year, and even more than that, it's going to be right, it's going to be downtown. It's a 10-minute drive as opposed to like a two-hour, three-hour drive to switch this guy back and forth between rosters. I think that's going to be huge for

development. It's really encouraging. And, and, and, And he's still younger than some of the guys coming into this incoming draft class. So I don't know. I was just curious to hear your guys's thoughts on that. I figured we'd all mostly agree. But still, I was just curious to see if you guys would like to move on from Saku, just completely revamp the roster. I think the notion, I don't think that there's anything that could really make it worthwhile.

Unless, as you've said, like some team is just very surprisingly big on him. But even then, it's like you tried for a late first round pick. I mean, I know where not all drafters are created equal. I mean, some guys are better in the draft and others, but your shot at getting a good rotation player late in the first round even is not good. So, you know, do you measure that against, you know, the possibility of getting somebody who could be, you know, who could give you a significantly better shot at a rotation player, even if he never ends up being a high level player. And I don't think second will be a high level player. But like I said, you can shoot threes, move well off the ball, cuts the basket, grab alley-oops, whatever, and play defense in the other end.

then you're automatically valuable player in the NBA. It is unfortunate. Just one more thing on Seiku. Because you look at guys, a couple of guys that I watched a bit in the G League, Jordan Poole, Kevin Porter Jr., went into the G League, got their confidence up, different players, of course, and probably just were at a higher level. But in terms of Jordan Paul, he looked rough in his first year in Golden State. Went to the G League, got his confidence up, showed some playmaking, some ball handling,

comes back to Golden State, and all of a sudden, looks like one of the best second year players in the league, Kevin Porter Jr. as well, he showed more tax. and more ready-made kind of more of a ready-made prospect in Cleveland in the first year, but even coming through the G-League, just working on his craft, showing off that playmaking. It's a shame we didn't get to see Seikud do that because obviously that's a missed opportunity when you look around the league and see the kind of guys that went there, even in their second years and really improved from it. Yeah, it's, yeah, I think really the, what happens, really what changed in the NBA as a result

or really the differences in both in the off season and in the season itself with the pandemic were just you know that was that was I'm sure very tough on on players on basically on younger players guys who really in particular needed they were looking for further developments like sake you look at him he came into the league kind of on excuse me he came into the person's rotation unexpectedly at the end of his rookie season excuse me halfway through his rookie season and you know what good at first then fell flat in his face which I don't think really was very surprising And then the season's cut off. He has the, you know, he participates in the longest NBA off season, like ever.

I think like I couldn't tell you, going back to, you know, like 40, 50 years ago, whatever, I don't know, but certainly of our lifetime in which he has no real access to team facilities or to this sort of professional level training that, that, to which players would generally have access in the off season. he doesn't really even have access to training on a five on a five on a five basis. I mean, these guys were really, really had very little access to the sort of training and developments that the young players generally do during the off season. And so it was basically, all right, well, everything's stopped. We're going into lockdown. And we're coming out of lockdown, maybe. But you still can't really get together. You still can't really train with the team.

And, okay, well, we have two weeks of training. in the training camp in the week of preseason and good luck to you i think that was so yeah sacu has just not really been put in a position to succeed just yet i mean i think it was it was equally hard on kylian who has really you know came into the league with a lot of work to do also yeah i'd say that's an additional factor that is just should be considered when when thinking about his case not only raw but was real not only to come into the league very raw but he was just his he has not been given the typical avenues for off-season development. Yeah, I think that's one thing that I always preached with Killian as well.

Just the importance of having no summer league for both of these guys, having no extra off-season slash pre-season to even integrate themselves with the team. I mean, how many practices did they get in? And even for someone like Seiku, like he's not even from the States, did he get back, did he have time to spend with his family in the off-season? Just these little things that all add up in terms of a player's development, how a player goes into the season. Just a lot of things went wrong where you can see how they're developed might have just hit a stumbling block. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I can't really think

in terms of, I mean, we talked about second, we've talked about means by which, you know, the pistons could move in the draft. Yeah, I don't, I don't anticipate this draft really being, a last draft was, of course, just a ton of movement, a ton of things happened. And the Pistons were just in position to do that. I just don't see the Pistons being in position for this draft to be particularly interesting. Perhaps I'll be very surprised, but I don't think it's, it's going to be the case. I'm not convinced the Pistons, like you have three second round picks and Broster space even at this point is kind of at a premium. The Pistons could draft and stash somebody. But I don't, I'm not convinced the Pistons will even be able to trade into the first

round unless you're giving up that Sacramento pick. I think it's 2024 at 2020. that they got in the Corey Joseph Dillon Wright trade. But yeah, I'm not convinced they'll be able to trade into the end of the first round. And if you look at the end of the first round, I don't think there are any necessarily particularly impressive players there. Oh, I disagree with you. Yeah, I know. Part of the reason this is such a highly ranked draft is the depth in it.

And I really hope the pistons can get somebody else in that. There's a certain kind of player. Yeah, it's certain kind of player you're looking for, though. You're not looking for the guy, but it's Greg Brown, I think, is his name. I always get his name wrong. I was mixing up with Jones. Whatever, the guy from Texas who was super athletic. Yeah, I don't know that he'll be there, but as far as like some of these guards. No, I'm just saying, you know, these, these are these these are guys he might be there. But this is a kind of guy you think sure, I end of first rounds. And this is a guy who could be a

starter, but he's basically Josh Jackson 2.0. Like if you if you find like a guy who you think would really fit the team, then great. But a guy like Bowens Highland, I know you're a big fan of him, but it's probably going to rise in the top 20. Excuse me, into the end of the, the, the, the, the, 20s and the draft has more depth, kind of, but we're talking like the Pistons probably won't be able to, if they're trading with those picks, it's like 28, 29, 30. I don't think you're getting higher than that. And who's available at that point? I think there's still going to be, I think 20, like high 20s is still a little high for Bones. I know he's been a late riser, but there's a lot of good names kind of at the end there that have just upside and potential. It's more than just

highland. It's Josh Christopher. I. Asumo, Cam Thomas. There's a lot of names. But I think if Troy Weaver really wants a guy, he will get him. I don't think that that's not to say that, I think Troy Weaver's just going to, like, go crazy and overpay on a guy. But I definitely do think that trading back into the first round, it would probably be more difficult this year because I think everybody is kind of aware that this is a very deep draft. But I think it's still, I would still put it at like over 50% chance of happening.

I just think that there are a lot of guys there that should be. targeted. You got to consider who, you know, with whom are you going to trade. Like, number 30 is Utah. I think Utah is going to take, it's just going to take a low-cost guy at the end of the first round. I mean, sure, they could opt for getting three shots at number, you know, three shots in the second round.

Sure. You know, maybe that's, maybe that's better for you. You get, you know, three chances at somebody, even though 51 is, you know, it's extraordinarily unlikely to get you a rotation player. So, and even 37 and 42. number 30 is not likely to get your rotation player. I think the odds are, I don't remember looking at up in recent drafts, and maybe like 50-50.

So less than that, maybe, I don't exactly remember, but it's not great. But if you've, you know, you look at what you've said, that there are some good guys available there. Okay, well, you know, if you have a guy, if you like there, you take him. The 76ers, I've, they're number 28. It's been said that maybe they're willing to trade it. I think in that case, you're looking for more immediate help. The distance can't provide that.

But if you're the sixers, you say, okay, well, maybe there's a guy here, we like, this is a guy we have at a very low cost for four years and we're going to be in the luxury tax. Maybe that's consideration. Maybe the Sons at 29 trade for, you know, trade for somebody who can help them win now. The Pistons can't do that. So you just look down the line. The net, same thing. Do we want, here's a guy who's going to cost us very little against the tax and we're horribly deep into the luxury tax. Like retaining, if I remember correctly, retaining Bruce Brown at $10 million a year will cost them $50 million, counting the tax. So, yeah, sure. If it's deep and there's a good guy available, let's take him.

You just look on down the line. The nuggets, probably the same. The clippers, just the pistons, don't really have a tremendous amount to offer unless these teams, which just really are looking to win now, and most of whom are in the attacks, are, unless these teams are just saying, okay, well, we'd rather have three shots at this rather than two and just only have to retain the ability to cut ties with a guy after one year rather than two, because you can do that with second round picks on the average second round, average contract, these guys. I'm going to get. So I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that the pistons can go out and do that. And of course, after that, I mean, I think it's a highly unlikely the pistons are going to be able to trade up to like any further than that. But after that, it's 23 and 24. And the rockets have, you know, there's there's no beyond the fact that those three seconds are probably not going to get you anywhere near 24. Like, why would the rockets trade? You know, there's no real reasonable trade that can be made with the rockets that doesn't include the first overall pick. So. I think you have to look at the agency, and I just don't think that's likely. No, I don't really see any trades materializing unless it's like you said, Mike, there's a team in the late, late, like very late. I'm talking probably 28 and up first round who says, okay, we'd rather take, you know, three shots than one shot and grab all of our second round picks to move up. But in that case, Troy would have to be particularly in love with someone who he's not convinced would be available at, you know, 35.

and then even still the other team. It's not 37. Or 37. No, no, no, no worries. And then the other team would need to be incentivized to have that same mindset as well. And so I don't particularly see an avenue through which we could get up into the teens. I don't think any of the players on the roster are so valuable that them combined with any package of those second round picks could get us there. And even then, a lot needs to come together for something like this to materialize.

So I've been wrong before. I didn't anticipate anywhere close to the level of movement that we saw in last year's draft. And Troy has surprised us time and time again. But as it stands right now, I don't see anything aside from maybe trading for the 28th, 29th or 30th pick. Yeah, I guess we just got to take Cade and hope for the best. That's not a bad strategy. That's going out to be pretty good.

Yeah. The trade I would see, I think it's most likely that the Pistons will make with those second round picks is if somebody is available at. at like, you know, 32 or 33, you can see, you could see 37 and 42 going to that other team to move up in that case. You know, that, that's primarily where I would see it, particularly if you're dealing with the likes of the Knicks who have an enormous amount of cap space. And probably, you know, maybe they see a guy at the end of that, you know, at that position that they, whom they really absolutely love. But they're in this weird space of being a team that's kind of trying to win now, but also has a gigantic load of cap. space. So, yeah, that's the trade I would see, honestly. I would see as likely as it's probably

37 and 42 for 32. And that's pretty typical as far as as moving up in the late, you know, whether it's in the late first round or in the second round. That's basically based on recent experience, the price you can expect to pay or close to it anyway. Ironically, that is our, ironically, that pick is Detroit's pick, number 32. That was sent out in the Kyrie Thomas deal in 2018. Yeah, the Pistons sent out their second round pick and this year's second round pick, which turned into borderline first round pick.

Well, that's, yeah, I'm just torn between, because I don't know if it's, if it's going to be another year of aggressive Troy Weaver or if it's going to be, you know, we already kind of have the team that we want. I know that Troy said that they don't anticipate too many open-raster spots, but it's just, that's what I'm kind of thinking about going into this.

Like the top of the draft is, for the most part, It feels like it's going to be Ked, and that's very comforting, given all the talk in the past month. It's just been a very long month, honestly. But I am just curious to see what happens because he's still, this is only his second year. He's finished up, what, 12 months is GM? So I'm just curious to see what happens.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Do you guys want to talk about the finals now? I think that would be a pretty topical topic. Wes, you in particular, what were your thoughts on the finals? And moreover, how would you sort of relate that out to maybe a model that the Pistons can sort of follow in the future? Yeah, for sure. In terms of the finals, I mean, they were exciting. You just can't say anything but that got Janus just historic. Like some of the performances he put up 50 points, the block,

the dunk, which I don't know if the dunk gets enough credit at the end of the game off the Drew Holiday rip where he just dropped out of the sky. I mean, he's head. was up the top of the backboard. It was insane. But in terms of the correlations to the Pistons, obviously small market teams, in quotation marks, I guess, small market teams, Yarnas is obviously a rare breed, one of the greatest players of all time he'll go down as. So Cade lofty expectations, but it's just the way they went about it in terms of they surrounded Janus with the right pieces. I said it at the time when they made that trade for holiday, but you give up those assets. Some people said they overpaid for Holiday, but you give up those assets to keep Yarnas because you're

not getting another Yarnas. It's that simple. And I think obviously the pistons aren't there yet with Kade, but just looking down the line, you've got to be aggressive. You've got to be smart, though. You've got to wait for your chance. Drew Holiday came up who happened to be just a perfect fit for them in terms of the defensive side of the ball and his secondary slash primary playmaking alongside Chris Middleton can play off the ball. Milwaukee saw that chance with the Pelicans. They somehow managed to offload Eric Bledsoe and George Hill and those guys, which weren't seen as negative contracts. Eric Bledsohn itself, apparently for some reason, with a couple of first round picks. And they just surrounded Janus with the right guys, which I think the Pistons can take some knowledge or some can learn from that.

Yeah, I love what you said about surround them with the right guys. I think it's a pretty astute point to make because, you know, the Drew Holiday trade, lots of people were scratching their heads with that. but it's like you said, it was a trade to keep Janus happy and to think that Cade can reach the, you know, acclaimed heights of Janice atenacumpo, that's more than a lofty expectation. It's, it's pretty unlikely, not because I'm low on Cade, but just because I recognize Janus's greatness. But in the event that's something even remotely similar to that occurs, it's not just about keeping the superstar happy. It's also about identifying the correct pieces to put around him to the point where he's not only happy. He's maximally effective, you know.

And so if we do happen to be lucky enough to strike on a player like the quality of what I think Cade can be, what we all think Cade can be, it's important to make shrewd moves and to make sure that his skill set is optimized in that when playoff time rolls around, when it's crunch time, he's not just left out to dry and he can rely on his teammates to, you know, he can make them better and they can make him better as well because it's like we've said about the playoffs time and time again. It's just a different beast. then you really need to be cohesive as a unit to move forward through those rounds.

And I think Troy, you know, if there's any executive in the NBA that I would trust to build around Cade Cunningham, I think a guy who got in on Cade right at the ground floor, you know, the person who's going to draft him, Troy Weaver, I think he can build a team. So that's something that I'm optimistic about. And I would constantly be looking to what Milwaukee did as sort of a base for what we can look towards moving forward. Well, what Milwaukee did, number one, they got very fortunate picking Janus in the draft. There is, well, you can say fortunate. They were fortunate in one capacity that the Mavericks had a higher pick than the Bucks in that draft.

And Donnie Nelson, who was the GM of that draft, he was very high in Janus. I remember reading that he said to Mark Cuban, the owner of the Mavericks, who's very, very involved in the operations of that team. And for the most part, it's done a pretty decent job of it. but in this case did not. And he said to him something along the lines of Mark, I know this guy's the next big thing. I know it.

We got to take him. And Mark Cuban, unfortunately for the Mavericks, decided that he wanted to trade down in order to get more cap space because lower in the draft is lower rookie salary. So that you could try to sign Dwight Howard. Of course, that didn't happen.

And then he'd get Yannis either. But things could have been very different for the bucks. Nonetheless, not only that they got Janus in the draft, It's basically, well, I've seen it said that the Bucks knew that they had something good in him based in his physical qualities. But they did not reckon on him having such a maniacally, just a maniacally good work ethic. The guy just works incredibly hard and he's just got a great attitude. And I've just, I got to echo Wes and shouting out to his performance in the finals.

Janus really just, that game six was just Titanic. and he just throughout the series just really exemplified everything a sportsman and a leader should be you know he played he was just gassed constantly because he was playing so hard he competed super hard on both ends

he was a leader and yeah it just you know I was I was rooting for the bucks because I just I wanted to see Janus succeed but just as far as the pistons are concerned yeah what the bucks did yeah they had Janus they got Chris Middleton

thanks to Joe Dumars' desperation to keep his job. Much the same reason why the clippers ended up with the package they did for, you know, for example, that picked that turned into to Sheik Gilchus Alexander, you know, after trading up slightly. Anyway, yeah, so those two guys are really the foundation to begin with, though. Yeah, and just to touch on the bucks, this is a little bit further down the line for the Pistin, still in the early stages, but even the likes of PJ Tucker who they traded for, who made an impact.

He went scoreless a few games despite playing about 40 minutes a night, but someone like a PJ Tucker, Pat Conerton, just annoyingly grabbing offensive rebounds and playing his role. Those are the kind of guys you want on your team. All of those guys just seems that there seem to be no issues within the team. You had three stars, which is pretty rare where you had a superstar and two stars in Middleton and Holiday. And none of those guys seem like bad dudes. They all seem like really stand up guys, just nice guys.

there seems like there's just a camaraderie there, just a nice kind of locker-room vibe. And you're seeing some of those things with the Pistons starting to materialize with the likes of Siddique Bay, Isaiah Stewart, Killian Hayes, hopefully those kind of guys, just getting along a little bit better and just starting to build that foundation that the Bucks obviously had. And then Janus, who is the key factor. Yeah, and you talk about the way that this roster was built. I think back to like a year ago when the Bucks were making all these trades. And they ended up getting, they almost got Bogdanovich, but then they were,

caught they got that trade was blocked for like tampering purposes but they went all in but but donovitch never agreed to it too he came out and said that oh yeah that was also that was also kind of an issue yeah i mean imagine if they had though that would have been huge for them anyway just the fact that they went all in and that they were like okay this is our time we have to maximize them i think for me personally just having been so used to trying to imagine how a rebuild would go for like the past two or three years it's going to be different for me when I have to try to, when I do these little thought exercises about like how the pistons are supposed to turn into a contender, it's a really big risk to go all in at one point.

And I'm really happy that it worked out for the books because when you don't go all in, you get the Portland situation. Because for the past two or three years, I've been saying, Portland just needs to go all in on dame. He's not getting any younger. And they're just going to end up wasting him. And now finally it seems like it's coming to a head a little bit. and I just feel like it's when that works out like that, it's really exciting.

But for a team like Portland, if you're not going to go all in, it can just completely fall apart. So credit to the bucks for going all in when they did. And I really hope Portland goes all in at one point, too, because I like Dame. And I like it when a homegrown superstar ends up working out and winning a ring for their team. But that's definitely another thing that the Pistons need to do at some point, not make super win at home. moves immediately. But when the time is right, make those moves and, you know, trade a little bit of your future stuff for some winning out pieces. Yeah, I don't think the persons are anywhere near that point right now, you know, no matter how good, you know, the, you know, the first overall

pick comes in, no matter how good he is. I mean, of course, we like to say it's Kate. I festo. Every time I say it's Kate, I think, okay, well, vast, you know, it's, it's, the possibility that he will be the pick is overwhelmingly high. But, you know, there's a small part of my brain that's like, you know, don't discuss something based on something that hasn't already happened. That doesn't have 100% certainty, at least, you know, who knows, maybe we'll make, we'll make Australia, all of Australia Pistons fans by selecting Josh Giddy. That's a joke. Of course, that's definitely not going to happen. But. Although, yeah, if you want to, I wouldn't be opposed to it. Sure. So, in any events, yeah, so we can just go, okay, we can say if, if Kate Cunningham comes in and, you know,

he ends up being just excellent in his rookie year. Even then, like, the Mavericks went, went big for Chris Depp's Porzingis because it was a good opportunity. I mean, Porzengis is a good player, and the Knicks did not ask much for him. So they went and did that for that reason, not because they had to immediately. The thing is, when you look at the bucks, Middleton and Yannas have both been there since 2012. So they have both, wait, this is 20, yeah, it was 2012 draft, I think, or 2012.

2013, excuse me. So Janus was drafted in 2013 and Middleton was traded to the bucks in 2013. But at the time they won this championship, they don't have been together for eight years. And granted, they were supposed to make much bigger waves in the playoffs than they did. You know, there was the last two years in particular were really a playoff disappointment. But, you know, it really took some time for things to come together there. And obviously, you don't want it to take that long. But in any event, where the Pistons are right now, like unless things really come together,

like in the next two years. I think you won't see the Pistons really make that kind of dramatic win now move until at least like 2020, maybe 2024. Going into Kade's fourth season, I know third season. Let's see. One, two, three, yeah, fourth season. In terms of the Janus thing, obviously the win now is probably a bit further down the line. But one thing we can take out of what the Bucks did as a whole was from early on

once they saw the potential in Janus, they tried to surround him with shooters, like at different stages. I mean, when Corva was running out there, what, Marvin Williams last year, like, just guys that could promise that kind of shooting. It took them a while to find the right makeup and the guys who could do more than just shoot the ball, but they recognized what they needed with Janus. They needed floor spacing, decided Brooke Lopez could suddenly shoot the ball and showed that off against the pistons in the playoffs before I remember that. But they just got the right pieces around him the right kind of squad there. So that's, I think that's why I'm so high on what we've got with Cade as well, because early days, I know, but we've got someone, we've got some versatility,

some switchability with Isaiah Stewart at least. There's some potential there. He can hopefully stretch the floor. Kielion Hayes and Cade could hopefully work off each other, a bit of playmaking between the two as well. Seems like they could be shooting at all positions. Jeremy Grant has taken a lead role as a defensive wing stop before as well and can take, take players off the dribble, shoot the ball. Sadiq Bay hopefully projects out to be a similar kind of player. I think it's early signs for sure, but there are signs of this team being a really nice fit around Cade Cunningham. Yeah, I think one need that continues to come up, and this is just in the context of last season's draft picks, only one of whom is actually an above-average NBA athlete,

that being Saban Lee. And I've said in the past that I actually feel pretty good about Saban-Wy. if he becomes a shooter, then you've got a guy who can be one of these kind of relatively low-cost starters, perhaps. A guy that, you know, this is like mega hypothetical. But a guy who knows maybe you put him next to like you, like Kate is the titular, is the actual point guard running the offense. But Samin Lee is like just the titular point guard, like the kind of like Seth Curry played next to Donchich in Dallas, for example. But, you know, you know, Samin's a real good athlete. but Killian is not, Sadiq is not, Isaiah is not. None of these guys can play above the rim.

Of course, none of them are particularly explosive. None of them are going to be very good all-ball movers just because they're not particularly explosive. So you do need more athleticism in the starting lineup. But that's something you worry about down the line. I don't think that's a worry you really need to have them. But what you said about spacing, yeah, absolutely. You know, that's just the, you know, you just got to do that in the NBA.

And of course, the Pistons, probably don't have enough of that right now. But that doesn't matter. I think in just in just, general, we've all agreed, and I think the organization, as much as said so prior to last season, is that the playoffs aren't, they said, but this was last November, I think, which came out that the Pistons didn't expect to make the playoffs for the next few seasons, but they weren't opposed to what happening naturally. I think it's just this season's very much going to be a development, just a development season, and really whatever happens, happens.

I do tend to agree with the athleticism. Yeah, that could be a bit of an issue. In terms of off the ball, just Sadiq Bay in particular, I did like, he's, he's, He's just intelligence, his relocation. Often he was getting into those right spots, which can be an underrated skill, but he was something that was always in the right spot at the right time, just in the right spot for the passer out of the post. I think that's why Mason Plumley got the most assist to him,

just because Sadiq Bay is always popping up in the right spots and he's ready to fire. Something that Kinnard, just to bring it back to Luke Kinnard, though, something he wasn't always ready to do. Like he'd get in the right spots and then he just hesitate. Sadiq Bay does not hesitate. He shoots that. So that makes up for just a little bit of,

little bit of his athleticism, he's lack of athleticism, I'd say. A little bit, but at the same time, it's really nice. If you look at somebody like Wayne Ellington or Frank Jackson, I know you mentioned before we were recording, actually a big fan of Frank Jackson. If you look at these guys who accelerate quickly, can stop in a dime and accelerate quickly in another direction, and just do that a couple times around the screen, it just makes it a lot easier to get open. These guys who are motion three-point shooters, maybe Sadiq, and that'll be great if you

become a motion three-point shooter, but he's going to have more of a troubled gaining separation, particularly from good wing defenders, than a guy like Ellington, like Frank Jackson, who basically can just stop and go in the other direction, get the ball, and shoot it right away. And those guys are much better able to utilize off ball screens toward that end. So Bay, I think, has just a very good instinct on where to be. and it was at times kind of a little irritating how teams played him last season. It's like you realize that this guy is a very good three-point shooter. Why do you keep leaving him open?

It's like, come on, we want the Pistons to lose this game. Like, you know, get your act together. So, but, yeah, but I think when it comes to being able to really achieve separation off the ball or explosively cut to the basket, it's better to have those guys who can, you know, who have more of the burst to do so. and that's an area in which I think Sadiq will be lacking. So, all right, anything else? Do you guys want to touch on before we call it quits on this episode?

No, I just want to thank Wes for coming on. Wes, I think we all thought you were great, and it's like we were saying to you before we started recording, your channel really blends passion for the team with knowledge of the game of basketball, and so it was nice to see it kind of shine through in this episode, and we really appreciate having you, man. I appreciate it. It was fun talking.

as I said, we're in lockdown. There's some people riding in the streets, which is a little bit wild, but yeah, not getting up to too much these at the moment. So happy to jump on. Yeah, I'll echo that. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for coming on. And we'd love to have you back on the show again. For sure. All right, folks. So as always, thanks for listening. We will be posting probably an episode very shortly after the draft. And then again, one mid-next week after four. free agency, a free agency, which begins on, I believe, the second at six o'clock, six o'clock Eastern, and, well, excuse me, six o'clock in the evening Eastern, after which it's only a short leap to Summer League on August the 8th, so we get a lot of cool stuff coming up.

In any event, again, thanks for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.