Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 55: Draft analysis & Kelly Olynyk’s fit

Episode Date: August 6, 2021

This episode takes deep dives into recent draftees Isaiah Livers and Luka Garza and discusses the signings of Kelly Olynyk and Trey Lyles.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, everybody, you're listening to Drive into the Basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike. I'm here with Dante and Tommy Fellows. How are you doing today? A couple of things have happened since we recorded last, so I'm excited. I think there's a lot to talk about. Yeah, after a month of kind of nothing, it's been a whirlwind. Yeah, who knew that having the first overall pick, you know, I've said this before, who knew that having the first overall pick would turn into such a stressful episode. It was anxiety inducing. Yeah. Just waiting to see what would happen.

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into a bit more draft analysis so those of you who listened to our kind of sort of live draft show i guess called a live draft show recorded it during the draft it was not recorded live i heard some of our kind of initial analysis was mostly about the second round of course you know this is kind of important, I guess, of the Pistons took the first overall pick. What? Yeah. I don't know. That's what it was.

So, yeah, I mean, anybody in Pistons Lends has been paying any attention knows the Pistons drafted Kate Cunningham first overall. We talked about that a great deal. Excuse me. Talked about Kate himself a great deal on the show. We did in particular a full player profile of him just before the draft watery for any of you guys who are in front of any listeners who are interested in that. but just to sum up,

potential franchise changing offensive lead. There is some disagreement about his height right now, though. This is 6-8. It seems to be more between 6-6 and 6-7, I believe. We need answers. We need answers. They're conflicting pictures. We were talking about the one with Jalen Greem

where they're like similar height, but then he's a little bit taller than Jalen Rose. So it's like, what's going on here? But I don't know. I feel like if it was like a legitimate issue, he was the number one pick. I feel like that might have been a little more, contentious leading up to the draft.

Yeah, maybe this is why Weaver took so long. He was just trying to get a good measure on the guy. Yeah, Troy was trying to measure. That's the difference. Yeah. Yeah, that was, I would imagine it was just desperately trying to get these guys together so he could blind them up and take their heights in person. That was the reason behind working out all these different players.

Probably. Yeah. Anyway, all jokes aside. So, yeah, we've talked to Drake. Great deal about Cade. Let's talk a little bit. about first up

Isaiah Livers So Isaiah Livers was the Pistons second pick in the draft He was initially The Pistons were initially swayed to have Pick 37

They traded that away Excuse me They traded that In exchange for Pick 57 In order to get rid of Not to get rid of Whatever

Sorry Mason But to dump Mason Plumley To the Charlotte Hornets So just a quick profile on whivers. And honestly, when we are reporting the last episode, I know I said so. I mean, I don't think any of us had really done full workups on on guys mock to go wait in a second. I myself had tried to be a smart guy and be really knowledgeable about the first round so that I could feel really good about being able to predict it. And I gave up by like pick nine

because I was wrong about almost everything. The draft was a little bit weird. Who could have called Josh Giddy to the Thunder at Pick number? I mean, I could have thought Scotty Barnes at four. That was weird too. That was unlikely. Also, Davian Mitchell going at nine to a team that already had one undersized point guard and was planning to resign another one. Sort of an odd draft night, but it's kind of like I said, it's really nice to like just get your pick in first and then you kick your feet up and you're like, what is going to happen now? And then none of it affects you. That was nice. You're forgetting Josh Primo at 12. That was insanity. Oh, quick thing about Josh Primo. So

my buddy from school is actually Josh Primo's agent. So he was posting all sorts of stuff with Josh, like at the little party that they were having. So I shot up a message basically congratulating him. And he told me they did not expect to go that high. So like joking aside, that's like really cool. I just wanted to slide that in there. Yeah. Yeah.

Book night, of course, falling to, what was it, 12? That was unexpected. And at Tommy, that probably surprised you in particular. Yeah, that really surprised me. And you know what? It surprised a lot of people. I know this is not super relevant, but the betting line, because I was watching the NBA show pre-draft, the betting line for that was over under 10 and a half.

And everybody was like, no way he makes it that far. Like, he's going sixth. And it's like, it's free money if you want it. And then he goes 11th. So I'm sure a lot of people are pretty unhappy with that. I feel bad for the big gamblers on the night because that was a wonky draft. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was definitely a strange one.

All right, that said. All right. So on to Isaiah Livers. So 6-7, well, he's a little bit over 6-6, 6. 6 and without shoes. But forward out of University of Michigan, I'm sure, have plenty of Pistons fans who are also Wolverines fans are real familiar with the guy,

a four-year player of Michigan. And mostly played power forward, I believe, even with the Wolverines. So overall player profile, smart player, just generally knows where to be on both ends, particularly on defense, where you really see a lot of his IQ at play, but even on offense,

you know, you can think a little bit about Sadiq Bay, just in terms of knowing where to be on the perimeter, is based on how the play is developing. A strong, decent length, wingspan of around 6'9, so nothing spectacular, but decent. His primary skill is just stand still, catch-and-shoot threes,

at which he is excellent. If he's left open to three, point line. He's definitely dangerous. He's got a really a quick catch and release jumper. He catches the ball. He really doesn't need to adjust very much. Gets it off quickly. High release. And this all really allows him to shoot very effectively through closeouts. So, useful skill. And on defense, works hard. He's smart. And he's strong, which is helpful. And just in general, just a hard worker, high motor. Great attitude, very unselfish. I mean, just a lot of a lot of very good to be said about him in that respect.

When it comes to cons, really at the NBA level, he may not have anything more to offer beyond those standstill threes. Right now, he doesn't. It's a valuable skill, but when you're really looking at your three-point shooters in the NBA, a great deal with him these days,

the guys who are only taking threes can shoot off the move as well, which is a very useful skill. So, yeah, liver is not a good crater off the dribble, not a good scorer in the restricted area. Not quick. which is kind of an issue on both ends. He's not going to really achieve separation on anybody off the dribble,

but he's not really good at creating off the dribble at all, or really who wasn't in CAA after four years, or, you know, in four years or other. Also means he might have some struggles guarding quicker players in the NBA. So that's obviously an issue. It's an issue for obvious reasons. It's just really important these days that you not be easily beatable by, you know, really by anybody else to become a liability because teams will relentlessly attack you.

So injury concerns also a little bit there. Yeah, do you guys have any thoughts on Isaiah Livers? Yeah, I think out of all the three second rounders, he's probably got the best shot of actually contributing in the NBA. But that's more due to the fact that it's just a shooting. I think you stick him in the weak side corner. You hope that the defense collapses a little bit and he's a target on the perimeter. Motion threes, pull-up threes.

It's not really his game. I think it's just like somebody else is creating for him. And realistically, I think right now he projects to be like the eighth or ninth guy in your rotation. And at the 42nd pick, that's fine value. I think this draft kind of dropped off a little bit after like 35, 37 as painful as that is to say. Like, I think there was value there. But for where he was picked up, I don't mind this pick. It's just not a high ceiling pick at all.

It's just a role player to the max. Yeah, I would agree with Mike's breakdown and then Tommy's further analysis. I'm a pretty big Michigan fan, more so football. I'm not like the biggest college basketball guy, but I like Michigan enough to where I watched many of their games. And Livers is a good player. Like there's something to be said for someone who has, and I touched on this a little bit in the episode that Mike and Matt and myself did. There's something to be said about someone who's got a translatable skill, such as three-point shooting, even though it might not be in the variety of ways that say someone like Duncan Robinson can get his threes off.

Livers is going to catch the ball, and when he shoots, it's probably going to go in. He's that good of a shooter. And it's Mike touched on this as well. Very good relocator as the play is developing. Livers will kind of move around the perimeter to where he's best suited to kind of receive that pass. And that points to high IQ. So I guess I'll kind of leave it with, yeah, the high character, good defensive, big and strong, relatively unathletic shooter.

Who does that remind you of? Sadieke Bay, right? So I'm not making a one-to-one comparison. But I do think that these guys with limited athletic upside tend to slip through the cracks. And then savvy GMs like Troy Weaver can maybe capitalize on value. So I expect levers at some point during his career to be, you know, maybe not one of the prime rotation guys, but at the very least, someone who can contribute spot minutes with room to improve. so I'm happy with the pick. And intangibles-wise, Michigan was a much better team when Livers was on the floor.

So take that for what it's worth. Yeah, I'll also just add. I think he's going to be a really good locker room guy. It started off right at that press conference. Like he's like giving Koparvits a chance to pronounce his name correctly. He's helping these other guys get their opportunities to speak. Being from Michigan and just he seems like a very charismatic guy who will be a good locker room presence. I think he'll add to the team that way.

And in case he made it clear, a big part of what they were, they liked about him was his personality. And the team, the organization in general definitely seems to like guys like that. So if that's just part of what he brings, I think that's valuable. And it's worth considering. Yeah, I'd say two things. Obviously, he does have the perimeter shooting. Obviously, this goes without saying it's a necessary skill in the NBA. It's also highly valuable guys who can hit these shots at a good clip, you know,

an excellent clip. Of course, I'm repeating myself now, but if you look at really the truly a lead three-point shooters in the league right now, the guys outside of like, we're not talking like Steph Curry and whatnot. I'm talking about guys who just take catch and shoot threes. If you're looking at them, almost all of them are able to take those motion threes. So just a guy who was able to come in and take standstill threes and really nothing else and, you know, play maybe decent defense. You know, it's not just about having skills. It's about having skills. It's about having skills enough that you justify being ahead in the rotation of other players. So that's what I question about Livers.

You know, does he really, is this ceiling really a guy who can provide enough that he can beat out other guys in the rotation? So I agree. You're probably looking at a deep rotation player. I don't, I don't know, I don't all agree with the comparison to Bay who is significantly, like Bay's issue isn't, you know, he moves well. Put it that way. On defense, he moves well. Livers is pretty slow-footed on defense. I mean, he's, he's good at positioning himself.

properly. But Sadiq has no issue guarding quicker guys. He's pretty good at that, actually. And Livers does. So it's just different that way. Sadiq is not an explosive athlete, and he's not particularly quick himself, but he's quick enough. So I don't really just, I don't really see the comparison there, not so much. I know you can say, well, guys who aren't really super athletic. I mean, Wivers, you can make the argument. It's a better leaper than Sadiq. He's kind of like a sneaky good weeper, but I just say Sadiq is significantly higher up on the scale there, just even just for the moment he came into the NBA. Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I definitely don't think it's a one for one comparison.

But as far as like highlighting some of these like general traits, I meant it more in terms of like these are the types of players who tend to fall in the draft because of a perceived lack of upside. So definitely not a one to one comparison. but what I'm saying is I see similarities to a certain extent whereby which he may prove more valuable than his draft position. Oh, that's certainly possible. I mean, if you look at Sadiq, though, even during his time of Villanova, I mean, he was one of the primary offensive guys in that team. And even in the NCAA, he really wasn't able to blow by guys.

And just his first step wasn't good back then. It isn't good now. But he could create offense. He could do stuff. He could handle the ball, certainly. Now, Wevers has never really even shown chops at handling the ball. I mean, it's just, it's best if he's just, you know, the skill you have that he's that's going to maximize his value as his shooting.

He just doesn't really do very good things with the ball. So, yeah, I'd say you can draw some parallels, but I'd say Sadiq came into the NBA just at a significantly higher level. I'd say he was a significantly better player even the NCAA level. And Sadiq improved a lot as the year went on. So, I mean, I guess it's up to Livers who has a pretty good work, Eth. from everything that I've read from his time at Michigan and all of the post draft stuff.

So maybe he'll add to his game. Right now I see him topping out as like we said, sort of the end of rotation guy, but could be wrong. I'd like to take the optimistic approach on it because, you know, hometown kid, I'm rooting for him and he seems like a really good guy with some very translatable skills. So I guess it remains to be seen, but fingers crossed.

Yeah, sure, absolutely. I mean, also worth noting, even though the age isn't all that different. Because Sadiq is 22 now, I think, I think livers is 22, 23, I think. But Sadiq was only in at Villanova for two seasons, whereas Livers played for University of Michigan for four, whatever.

We're just looking at upside here, of course. Yeah. So, all right, let's move on to one I know Dante is very excited about, and that is Luca Garza. So Garza, national player of the year in this past season, excuse me, Naismith player of the year. at Iowa is one of overall just an extraordinarily accomplished NCAA player. And play center, 6-11, I think a wingspan of about 7 foot 1.

He weighed in at around 270 at Iowa, though apparently he has lost about 30 pounds since. That's a lot of weight. So for looking at pros, good vision and offensive IQ in general, particularly in the post, just the player is able to think on the fly and make the smart play. In terms of really just this post play was just in many ways the bread and butter of his game in the NCAA. Just establishes post position well. He really uses a size to his advantage, good footwork. It's clever, shifty, the really diverse repertoire moves and just a good overall touch scoring around the basket.

Decent face-up shooter as well out of the post. Strong finisher through contact. Just a really strong player overall who plays physically. Seeks out contact. Really just uses his size to his maximum advantage. including as a rebounder. You'd see him at Iowa when a shot was up from a teammate, he was around the basket, pick a spot, establish his position,

and then just use his body to create space before the shot fell, so he'd have a maximum shot at a rebound. As far as else, we're on offense. Just an excellent shooter. Just quick trigger, really good for him. So a real good forestretcher from the position. And he was also an able pick and pop shooter. So these are just important.

You know, this is a very good skills to have. And beyond that, like liver's hard worker, high motor, great attitude. So at this point, you know, you think, well, why is this highly accomplished NCAA player? Why did he go 50 second in the draft? And the reason is his body, pretty much. So the number one question is defense. This really is mobility and then how that relates to defense. So Luca, unfortunately, is not the quickest guy, to say the least, his lateral mobility is really not very good at all.

So that just renders them really a potentially very big liability in terms of defending in space in the NBA. Like in isolation, pick and roll defense, switches in general. Now, he's lost a lot of weight and we've heard through interviews and elsewhere that he's trying to find other ways to, to compensate for it, you know, through communication and so on and so forth. So who knows, maybe that'll help. But in the NCAA, I also struggled in terms of room protection, just troubles making the right reads and decisions on defense. So really, a question is that at age 22,

will you be able to make the steps and the necessary steps in the defensive capacity? Because you don't have to be a great defender, of course, and the NBA by any means to make an impact, but you've got to be good enough not to be run off the floor. So he's really got his work cut out for him. And who knows, maybe you can get there. otherwise you look at how well will his offensive game translate to the NBA. Of course, shooting his translatable period.

That's a skill that will be useful for him. But you look at his post game, all right? So number one, he's not going to be able to bully guys in the NBA like he did in the NCAA. I mean, just the athletic standard is so much higher in the NBA. That's just what it is. But there's also the fact that post offense is really for a long time, well, I can say for a long time, really, the NBA started drastically changing. around like 2014 or 2015, whatever the case.

Post offense has really just been eroded. It's just really in severe decline as a form of efficient offense. Really, only the very best post scores can make efficient offense out of it on volume at the NBA level. So you say, well, can Garza do that in the NBA? Can he make post offense really work for him in a way that it's worth feeding the ball, feeding him the ball and letting him go to work in that capacity because, yeah, again, I mean, there are not very many guys in the NBA who are going to be able to make post offense worthwhile and high volume.

There are very few, and most of them belong to the star, superstar category. So can he do that or can he diversify his game and add more to it such that, basically just such that he's got the most he can possibly offer on offense to balance out what may be long-term defensive struggles. So, yeah, I think the biggest question with Garza is, can he improve that defense enough that it doesn't make him an outright liability such, you know, so that he can stay on the floor and really allow what he can provide on offense to be a valuable quantity. All right, thoughts?

Yeah, I, well, I'll start here. So on draft night, and you guys can even go back and listen to that episode, that episode, I wasn't like super, super high on any of the second round picks. And I remember thinking personally to myself, like, oh, they pick Garza. Cool. Like I watch a decent amount of college basketball. I knew who he was. I knew how accomplished he was.

But I was just like, ah, this is a flyer. I know his defense is really bad. He's probably not going to do anything in the NBA. And then later on, when I was sort of taking a closer look at the guys we picked in the second, I was watching some Garza tape. And I was just very struck by how talented he is on. offense and obviously Mike did an admirable job just kind of breaking down his offensive game but you really have to watch for yourself and see like oh my god this guy can shoot the lights out his

touch around the basket is incredible he seems to always be positioning himself in the correct spot to either get an easy bucket or get an easy rebound and when he does have to fight through contact he's very very physical at the point of attack and this is just a guy who obviously has a high motor and when you pair the high motor with the high level of skill then you get someone who's so accomplished in the NCAA. And then obviously it's like, well, if he's so great, why did he slip so far in the draft? And yeah, it's like Mike said, his defensive mobility and just therefore his defense in general was so awful at the college level that it was noticeable.

And if it's noticeable at the college level, the NBA is one, two, three, four, five giant leaps ahead of college basketball when it comes to athleticism. So it doesn't matter how good you are on offense. if you're repeatedly targeted on defense, you just, you can't stay on the floor. So I was like, okay, but then these reports start coming out that he lost 30 pounds. And it's like when you're 270 pounds and you lose you lose 30, it's not nothing. Like we always hear these stories, oh, such and such guy is in the best shape of his life. But 30 pounds is 30 pounds.

And you can be as flat footed and uncoordinated and poor in the lateral mobility category as you want. but when you're moving with 30 pounds less weight, you're a touch faster. And that touch faster could mean the difference between getting in the right defensive position versus not getting in the right defensive position. And if he's even passable on defense, I feel like he has some value as an NBA player. So we're going to see how he improves in that category. And I'm going to toss it off to Tommy here in a second. But really quickly, I wanted to touch on his attitude because I'm sure we all watched

the introductory press conference there for the rookies. I was very taken by what Lucas said when he had his opening statement. And he basically just said, I'm very thankful to the Pistons for giving me a chance. That's all I ever wanted was a chance. And it's like, when's the last time you heard the national player of the year so grateful to even be drafted? So I was like, huh, I'm kind of rooting for this guy. And then you go on Twitter a few days later.

And his dad is tweeting out videos of them working at, you know, presumably a home gym or somewhere close to their house, absolutely grinding. and he's promising the city of Detroit that they've got a really good player who's going to work his butt off to make sure that he's a factor for them. And it's just, it's such a great story. And I think to be so distinguished and so accomplished at the college level and yet still have that chip on your shoulder,

I don't know. I think we've got the makings of a very cool story here. And I'm really rooting for him because if he can stay on the floor defensively, he could be very helpful as a backup big. So we'll see what happens. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's encouraging to me that. that they know exactly what they need to work on.

And it's the mobility. Like we've seen videos, like you've mentioned these videos that have come out, there are definitely videos of them working on mobility and defensive positioning on the perimeter. It's, they know what they need to focus on. And it goes back to,

you know, just the way that the NBA has changed so rapidly. I actually think the Pistons are kind of ahead of the curve, honestly, in terms of how switchable their roster projects to be in the coming seasons, just looking at the way the roster is built right now. And they know that if Luka wants to be, you know,

a player in the NBA, he needs to be able to make those switches, make that movement work. And that's encouraging to me. Like you said, Dante, he seems like a very, very hard worker, very skilled player. It's not, even today, in today's NBA,

it doesn't, like, you can be a very big athletic presence, but if you can't move well, and if you can't, if you're not a skilled player, you're just not an NBA player anymore. The game has changed that rapidly. And I think that's for the better, honestly. I think it's a more interesting product than watching Biggs just back the way in.

But it's, Luca's not that player. Like he's, he legitimately is very skilled. Casey even said, like he was very surprised at just how well Luca could shoot the three ball. And that's just very, very encouraging. It speaks to his work ethic. And I just, I, exactly what you said. I'm rooting for him. I really want to see him.

I don't know what, what he has to do, lose more weight, just work on the movements, footwork. I don't know. I'm not a trainer, but if he can make it work, I'll be very, very happy. 100% for sure. All right. So moving on next to Balsa Kopakova. I believe I pronounced his name correctly.

It's Vita. That was the thing. Come on, man. Cope to Vita. Yeah. My apologies. Yeah, he's going to hear this and be very upset with you. Yeah, my apologies.

All right. So honestly, I know very little about him. And I went looking for information, and there really just isn't very much at all to be found. A bit of a surprising pick. And I guess we'll see really what happens. I'm very, very confident that's the fact that he is a foreign player, or as I don't remember, who put it this way, has a passport. I think it was San Bacini who put it that way. played a part in this election because I

think it's very likely they're just going to be stashed for at least one year whether or not he'll be able to come over and be an NBA player of course nobody knows but I'm pretty sure he'll spend next year outside of the NBA but honestly I just I just know very little about the guy yeah wasn't really in there turns out he did go to Montver he did have some overlap with Cade I guess that was a question

that's literally all I know about him yeah he wasn't I don't know how to pronounce his name thankfully because it rhymes with pizza that's good job yeah so he wasn't It wasn't very notable even in the NCAA, and his selection remains a little bit of a question mark. So I guess the state guys are usually pretty low profile, but he's very, very low profile. This is the flyer to end all flyers, because honestly, and I'll be honest with you guys and the viewers here, when I was doing preparation for this episode, I was watching so much

livers and Garza tape. I forgot about balsa, like completely. So I honestly really don't know what he does well, what he doesn't. do well. I'm not at all familiar with his game. But if this trade with Charlotte processes, I think we're going to see him in Summer League. So maybe we'll be able to kind of get like sort of glean what's going on with him. And I hope he's good. I'm not optimistic, but I guess we'll see. Seven footer, he should be fine at Summer League, but I don't know what he projects to be, if anything, in the NBA. A big tall basketball player. Yeah, tall Dave.

tall day oh how about we just take a moment of silence here for dave that well we'll talk we'll talk we'll talk about dave this is uh davidus a little bit later but why don't we move on really quickly to uh chris smith who's the undrafted free agent to whom the piston signed to a two-way deal and i should just note at first that two-way deal is just like any player in the NBA the two-way players signed a two-way contracts can be waived at any time just the differences with two-way contracts that there's really no financial obligation, at least against the cap, to the team after that. So the Pistons could certainly call him tomorrow or in four months and say, well, you're off, thank you for your service. You're off the team.

We want this to go to somebody else. So just the fact that Chris Smith is in that spot right now doesn't mean he'll keep it. Nonetheless, so Chris Smith, 6.9 wing, 7 foot wingspan. He played four years at UCLA. He's 21 years old right now. So he tore his ACL shortly into a senior season, definitely a factor in him going undrafted, not only just because he hadn't played a senior season, not only because you're not entirely sure of the time, 100% sure of the timetable of that. But also because you can never really be 100% certain.

I mean, that's a significant injury and they could have long-term implications. And he's still recovering. So he will not be playing at Summer League. But the guy's potential is a two-way wing who can shoot and attack the basket, decent defender. sort of a bouncy athlete. And yeah, it's just hard to know what it'll look like. Spencer Dimwitty, the same thing happened to him, actually. He tore his ACL in what I believe was his junior year,

who was his final year at University of Colorado. And so probably would have went significantly higher in the draft than that. He was picked in the second round in 2014 by the Pistons. And if he hadn't gotten injured, yeah, if I recall correctly, looking at him as almost certainly the first round pick. So, one of you guys have anything to add about Chris Smith? Yeah, it's super unfortunate to go through an injury and then the subsequent rehab of something like that, especially immediately preceding the season that you were going to really make a run at upping your draft stock.

It sucks and there's not much else to say about it or another way to parse it. It's unfortunate. But from what I understand, he had really good, like you said, two-way potential as a wing who can shoot and make some stuff happen at the basket. So maybe if he recovers, he could be something. But for right now, you just kind of pray for a speedy recovery. And then we'll see what he be when he gets, we'll see what he can be when he gets on the court. Yeah, this is just taking a literally no cost upside flyer, excuse me, on a potentially high upside, a potentially decent upside player.

Right. The only opportunity cost there is one two-way contract slot. And, you know, who knows? I would suspect that either livers or Garza, probably Garza will end up on a two-way deal. but who knows, maybe Chris Smith keeps a spot. All right. So beyond that, let's, or moving on from that, rather, let's talk a bit about free agency.

But I guess first, just about a couple of notable roster moves. We spoke about Dave, Dave, who is no longer under contract to the Pistons. He was. R-I-P. He was waived with a year left on his contract. The Pistons will pay something in the realm of one and a half million a dead cap to him next season. it will be with the summer league team. So, yeah, he was waived.

Tyler Cook also waived on the same day. Tyler Cook, who had joined the Pistons just as a free agent in the middle of the season and had been ultimately signed to a multi-year deal that was fully non-guaranteed. So, yeah, what do you guys think about, you know, about that, you know, in terms of how do you feel about it? I really hope Tyler Cook gets another shot somewhere. Like he did those vlogs during the season, and there weren't a ton of them. But just seeing that guy's perspective getting that close and personal, it's, you really

root for that guy. And he was just fun to watch. I mean, our team wasn't super athletic last year. And he had some bounce. He had some energy going up and attacking the rim. So that's always fun. It's just a likable thing. So I just really hope that if it's not the Pistons, I hope he gets some of those shots

somewhere else. And of course, he had that tweet at Luca Garza. I guess they played together at Iowa, which full disclosure, I had no idea that that was the case. But he was excited to play with his teammate, and then like a day later he gets cut. That's the NBA.

I mean, these guys are paid fairly well, but it's still pretty brutal sometimes. I hope he makes it, man. I guess he's on the Summer League roster too, so we'll see. Maybe he can earn a spot back. Yeah, I would say with respect to Tyler, uh,

to Tyler Cook, he was just stuck in this very unfortunate tweener place. So he couldn't shoot. You can't really line up a guy that power forward very well if he can't shoot. I mean, of course, there are exceptions to that. Like you have, you know, like really good power forwards can be exception to that. So he didn't have the shooting to play power forward, but he didn't have anything like the interior defense to play center.

Not a capable of room protector at all. Not a capable of pain protector at all. Just not the kind of interior defender you want in the position. Or nowhere close to it. put it that way. So he was always going to have kind of some trouble staying, so to speak. I think his best shot would have been to develop a good, you know, to become a passable, ideally a good three-point shooter. You know, then you've got, you know, the potential to stick. Of course, the fit was made more awkward by the fact that, like, probably his best use is as a

role man. And that just makes his, just as positional assignment, even my friend, more awkward or just kind of that's not much harder to nail down. It's just, it's tough to find a good role for the guy given his current skill set. So it didn't surprise me to see him waived. Honestly,

you can look and say, oh, he did well at times with the Pissons last year, but yeah, he was playing, like, as a deaf player for one of the worst teams in the league. When it came to Dave, that was a, I think,

in the opinion of all of us, a deeply questionable pick at the time. He traded down from number 30 for four second round picks in cash. And, you know, one of those second round picks was effectively useless. It was like protected, you know, up to pick 50 something. But yeah, basically the Pistons for number 30 came out with a second round pick that was, geez, I don't remember where it went. I think that

was one of the picks that, yeah, that was the pick, I believe that was along with three future picks when the Pistons was sent out, three future seconds was sent out for the Kinarra trade. So, yeah, there's a lot of talk about kind of corruption and that this guy, I can Arntelam was one of the executives for the Pistons. His son represented Servetus. Whatever. Who knows? I mean, if Servetus can be a good motion three-point shooter, cool.

But the guy doesn't really seem to have much to offer beyond that. It's a useful skill. Yeah, I've kind of lost my train of thought here. I feel like they were both released solely for the sake of roster space, more or less. I don't think they were particularly valuable players, but I think that was the primary consideration. Yeah, I think we've spent more time talking about Dave and Cook than any other Pistons content creator. Yeah.

Well, I'd be more a pretty in-depth show. So where else you're going to get this kind of hard-hitting analysis of these fringe roster guys and these corrupt selections? Who hit like three-threes over the course of the season? He got some pretty cool ink, though, towards the end of his Pistons tenure. He had like the one tattoo coming in and then he was like fully sleeved out on talking about Dave. So it's kind of like the two-day when you get some VC and then you go. would you just absolutely deck your guy out? That's, so I thought he would be good after I saw that sleeve.

And then, you know, he had a couple threes and then got waived, living the American dream. Yeah, you don't find analysis like this just anywhere. Oh, no. Oh, absolutely hard hitting stuff. Yeah, 100%. But you know what? He's a 6.8 guy who's a good shooter. If he can learn to shoot those motion threes, then maybe I'll have a career in the NBA.

It's just the disappointing outcome on the number of 30 pick in 2019. I remember that draft being super excited. they got to number 29 and there were still some good players on the board. Of course, one of them was bowl, who knows if it'll ever amount to anything. But you could have had like Casey Okpola, who knows, Kevin Porter Jr. was still on the board as well. I'm definitely not going to voice any regrets around that one. You know, who knows, maybe it'll be a good NBA player.

But whatever the case, yeah, it's just that kind of disappointing outcome. But, you know, it's two years past and a lot has changed since then. Yeah, it is what it is. And now we've got current free agency to talk about. So I guess we'll leave that in the past. And then we'll talk about Kelly Olinick. Yeah, Kelly Olinick, definitely. So Olinick, really the first signing for the Pistons of Free Agency,

three years, 37 million team option in the final season. So thoughts on Kelly Olinick. Well, Tommy and I disagreed initially. Initially, it was actually to the point where we have a group chat that we talk in when we're not recording. We do communicate. outside of recording this podcast. And at one point, Tommy was like, oh, this next episode is going to be flames.

And I thought he was right. But then we kind of, we worked it out. And then we kissed and made up. And we're all good now. But as far as Kelly is concerned, I liked the signing pretty much immediately. I didn't love it, but I liked it. And the reason for that is that I think Kelly's an underrated player. You know, I've always thought very highly of a Linux game.

I think he's a really good shooter. I think he actually increased his percentage. Last year with the Rockets, I know he's not a career, like close to 40% shooter, but he was really good last year. He's kind of a sneaky, like fluid athlete. If there's like a flat-footed someone with, yeah, heavy, awkward feet who doesn't have a lot of good lateral mobility at the five spot trying to defend him or even at the four spot, he'll just put the ball on the floor and blow by you. And then he'll get up there for like an acrobatic layup or a dunk. He makes good passes. He plays not great defense, but, you know, it's similar enough to Plumley to where, I'm

I don't see too much of a drop off there. And then speaking of Plumley, one good way to kind of look at this move is like, okay, you traded Plumley in the 37th pick for Kelly Olinick with a team option and the 57th pick. And I don't know about you guys, but in this sort of post-Kade Cunningham first overall pick world, where I don't think the pistons are tanking anymore, I think they're trying to win. We got a pretty good player. So that's a trade that I would make. And kind of in summation, I liked the move.

And I think Tommy's warmed up to it as well. And then Mike, Mike was a bit more indifferent to it. So we all had different opinions. I think we're relatively on the same page now that it's generally a decent move. If you go back and you look at his stats, one of the big things that people bring up is the three-point shooting, because that's probably the biggest upgrade from Plumlee to Kelly Olinick. In Houston, Kelly shot, let's see, 39% on threes,

just over 39% on decent volume. but then you go back to his Houston, or not Houston, his Miami stats, and he was shooting just under 32%. So it's definitely a swing on not the best volume. And like you said, this is not his career average. But if this is, if this improved shooting is for real, that's huge because that's when I started to warm up on the sign because it shows that they're trying to commit to a little bit more five out offense. And obviously, I think that's the future of the NBA.

I know there are probably people who want the old school down low centers, but if you want to have the best offense, the most fluid offense, the most versatile, you know, attack plan or like options, the most options, you want to have spacing fives. And Kelly Olenick can space the floor, and Isaiah Stewart projects to space the floor. So I think that if that's your center rotation, I don't know who starts honestly at this point. But if that's your center rotation, you can theoretically have 48 minutes of spacing. the five and that was kind of when I really started to warm up to this one yeah I don't I don't think there's any question about who starts I don't think you or anybody else wants or should want Kelly Olinick is the starting or the primary I don't want him to start no no he's no I'd say the chances are very very low I'd say if you like it should be mentioned that Olinick is more of a

kind of a hybrid he plays between power forward and center yeah definitely not they kind of like made minutes at center guy. Even with the Rockets, he played about half his minutes at power forward. So, yeah, if I have anything to add about Alinic, I mean, well, you guys have already gone over most of it. Good three-point shooter. Even last season, even though he only shot 34% in aggregate, he shot about 39% of wide open threes. So I can put the ball on the floor, you know, exploit mismatches that way, or not really mismatches, but if he's going up against the center who's on the slower side and a lot of centers are still like not particularly spry, you can put the ball on the floor and get past them.

And he's just a generally good mover off the ball, good at finding and exploiting mismatches down low. He's just good at getting himself switched on to smaller guys and just, and basically just posting them up and beating them at the basket, runs the floor well in transition and so on. Yeah, so he'll play some of his minutes at center. He'll probably most of his minutes at center. He'll play some of his minutes probably power forward. And yeah, he does provide you with that spacing and he just allows you to run a more dynamic

offense. The cost, of course, comes on defense. He's not a good rim protector by any measure. He's not a disaster. He's just, you know, he's noticeably below average. And just as an overall defender, he's not that great either. So that's where you lose some potency is on the defensive end. But on the offensive end could definitely be an asset. And at the price and the fact that there's a team option on the final season, you know, I feel okay about the contract. I don't, I don't feel too bad. So yeah, more floor spacing. Another weapon. Somebody you can, you know, the part of it is, you know, when you're trying to develop these young guys, you want to have that maximum floor spacing. So you don't, it was noticeable last year you had just the offense had two-it-on-the-wave creators and

not really a ton of the way of spacing. So yeah, I'm pretty meh on the signing, but, you know, I think it's fine. Yeah, I think he fits a lot better in terms of what we want. And I was, I mean, I'll ask this again later, or after. this but I think that maybe they wanted to pick a guy who modeled Stewart's strengths and weaknesses just a little bit more than Plumley's because we don't need Plumley's passing anymore. Like his passing and his ball handling was legitimately valuable and needed last year because we just didn't have much in the way of creation. But with K, they're at, you don't need that anymore. You want the ball in his hands as much as possible. So Olinick, I think, I really like

think that there's there will be some things that Isaiah Stewart can pick up. because Isaiah Stewart's not like a jump out of the gym guy. They're definitely on completely different levels in terms of holding their ground. But other than that, like on offense, like we started to see a little bit more movement and and versid mobility from Isaiah Stewart. And I definitely think that that's something that he needs to continue to work on if he wants to expand his game and improve in the NBA because he's definitely not going to be, you know, the most vertical guy.

So he needs to work on the ways that he can. bring value elsewhere. Mm-hmm. I never really thought about those parallels between Stewart's game and a Linux game. So that's a pretty... I'm not even sure, honestly. I've watched just like bits and pieces of a Linux game. It's mostly focusing on a shooting.

So I haven't gotten a chance to see, like, what he does in terms of movement and like where he likes to be on the floor. Right. Maybe that's something that they saw. But speaking in terms of generalities, I think you might be on the right track. And I think that's a pretty good idea. It's something worth monitoring. I don't know if maybe KCO or Weaver.

or Weaver will answer to something about that, like on the matter. But I completely agree with you about Plumley, especially when you think about it in terms of how the roster was constructed versus how it's constructed now. You know, Mike has consistently maintained this. I think he may have brought it up two, three episodes in a row, is that Mason Plumley was well suited to play a key role on a team that really lacked creators,

not just perimeter creators, like creators in general. We had very little in the way of initiating offense. and Plumley, yeah, he was a pretty good passer, pretty good ball handler for his size. But now with Cade Cunningham coming in and then Killian Hayes, it's well documented. I've said on the podcast before, if you take passing skill in a vacuum, I think Killian is an elite passer, like one of the best passers on the planet approaching Lamello level. Now, obviously, his passing can't be fully optimized until he scores, right?

Because then you're keeping the defense honest and you're creating plays at a higher level. But we have enough in terms of offense initiation. So Plumley, not really necessary. I would switch out his skill set for Olinic skill set for the team as currently constructed 100 out of 100 times. And then while we're on the subject and then I'll drop it and probably never talk about Plumley again. I thought his passing was overrated. I mean, he would like have his back to the basket and like do a bounce pass to a cutter. And everybody's like, whoa, Plumley is such a good passer.

It's like, cool. You did that three times a game. It's like I don't really want my center doing that. I don't care too much. And obviously it didn't translate to winning games. So whatever. I like the Atlantic better at that spot. And thank you, Plumley, for your service.

I thought you were a good dude and you surprised me a little bit, but ready to move on. Yeah, Plumley, I think what I also said about Plumley was that he was very well suited as the starting center for a team that really was not trying to win games. You did. That was funny. That was a good one. It's also true. That was his primary contribution.

I mean, I'm sure he had cultural contribution and probably his passing helped to some degree. with, you know, whatever it was, helping to run a more functional offense than, you know, on a team that really did black creators. But, yeah, he, you know, what it'll go down for in Pistons lore is the starting center for the team that ultimately got the first overall pick. And that was not because he necessarily did a great job at his role. And yeah, his passing was useful, but, you know, the better the team gets around him, the less useful that passing is.

I mean, no good team is ever going to use Mason Plumley as a primary. or even, you know, to any significant degree as a passer, because it's just, it's just not necessary for a team that has other, other, has anywhere in the realm of enough options. So when you're talking about just replacement in that respect, then, you know, sure, you know, he's, I'll take it. We're not doing a business. We're going to go out and get like a complete center in free agency.

It's going to cost you more money than you want to spend in a backup center. So, yeah, all together, like I said, I'm fine with it. will he be with the team past that those two guaranteed years on his contract? I don't think so, but that's okay. You know, there wasn't really a ton of opportunity cost here. The Pistons who signed three different two-year deals. It seemed to more be looking to 2023 as far as spending a lot of money goes. Yeah, no, I was going to say, once I saw that team option on the third year,

it was like, okay, I was already like warming up to it more and more, but I really liked it a lot more at that point. maintaining that flexibility. Yeah, that is very nice. Did Plumley have a team option? No. So I think he was fully guaranteed. He had trade kickers even. So I took the Linux contract a million times out of a million then.

I like it much, much better, like way better. Yeah, it was, I mean, it was with the Plumley signing sure you can say, you know, maybe Stewart developed more quickly than they thought, but it was a little, you know, whatever. It's like, it's just like a slightly comical that you pay this guy, probably. salary doesn't deserve. It's like the first signing of free agency like very, very early. And then you get rid of him like nine months later. You know, whatever. You know, I'm not, I'm not upset about it. I mean, things certainly turned out very well in his first season. So, you know,

you can't really look back and call that a mistake and it wasn't a big deal in any event. You know, maybe if somebody like in the realm of, you know, picks 37 to 40 turns into a really great player, who knows, maybe you look back and say, well, that's unfortunate. but I'm not worried about that. Of course, I'm not really worried about that at all. Rather, it's not something I'm thinking about. I don't know. I mean, Jared Butler went all the way to 40.

That was shocking. Yeah. I know he has these health scares, but still, I was floored that he got taken at all if he's falling that low. Anyway, totally off topic. We'll see. So we can move on to the next outside free agent signing, and that is Trey Wiles, two years, $5 million. total. We don't, but there's, there's been no information as to whether or not that contract

has an option on it. I wouldn't be surprised if it had a team option for the second year, but maybe, maybe not. Yeah, Lyles, 26. That's 610, I think, with a 6.9, rather, 7.5.3 wingspan. So, good size. Interestingly, he's the guy for whom, so the Nuggets traded for Trey Liles in 2017, and they traded the pick that turned in the Donovan Mitchell. Now, obviously, that was not a good trade. That was a very, very bad trade for the Nuggets. Yeah, not too great. Yeah, not ideal.

So, yeah, do you guys have any thoughts about Trey Wiles? I mean, I think this was a guy who was signed to be really a depth player, you know, like a rotation depth player. Yeah, I mean, in terms of thoughts, like I'd like to think I've dedicated some thought, to most NBA players. I've given almost no thought to Trey Liles. Like I forget he's in the NBA sometimes. Like when I saw that we signed him,

I was like, oh. And to be blunt, I don't think he's very good at all. And the only notable thing about this signing is that some fans are kind of up in arms, like, oh, he's going to take Saku's minutes. And it's like, dude,

if Trey Liles is preventing you from seeing minutes on this team or like threatens your spot in the organization, maybe the NBA is not for you because I don't think Trey Liles is very good at all. And yeah, if this affects Seiku, that reflects poorly on Seiku. Yeah, it's a depth signing. I don't, if it's going to be one of those things where like Frank Jackson's done it to me, Christians Wood has done it to me.

I don't care about these guys until they actually start to show some life. And at that point, you're like, oh, let's let's give this guy some attention. That's it. In two and a half million, five years, five years, two years, it's nothing. I won't, I probably won't pay much attention to him, honestly. Yeah. So, of course, there's been some talk about an interview he gave, I think, in 2018, in which he named Detroit, one of the five of cities. Yeah, that doesn't help. I'm sure, well, I would presume we'll hear him come out and say something about that. And I doubt it's one of those things where Troy Weaver just didn't do enough research to know about it. I mean, I don't imagine this is known about. I guess we'll find that. Yeah, he was hacked. Exactly. So deep fake.

Yeah, sure. That would be something. something. So yeah, just a bit about Lyles as a player, definitely not a creator, or to very small degree anyway. If he's creating offense, maybe a little bit just attacking, attacking a mismatch, like a really slow opponent at the center or wherever else. Let's put it this way. When he's creating, it's just under very fortuitous conditions. Decent rebounder. As far as floor stretching, he has some good years and some really bad years, like 2018, 2019, which is a horrible season for him overall. His last two seasons, he's done fairly well from the three-point line. So can play some center. No, he's certainly a bull average and protector. Not fast-footed

at all in a fairly slow-footed. You know, whatever. I'd imagine the hope is that this guy can come in and stretch the floor and play competent defense where necessary. And I'd say if Seque Dumoya comes in and he's playing well and, you know, and he can contribute in the NBA, then and Trey Liles is probably not going to play very much at all. So, yeah, that's how I feel about him. All right. So with that, we are going to call it on this episode. We actually came into this one with a lot of content,

and we're at about 55 minutes already. So we are going to split this in the two episodes. What we're going to have in the next episode, which we're going to actually release about a day after this one is some talk about the free agents whom the Pistons have brought back. Corey Joseph and Sabin Lee at this point. and about Frank Jackson, the Hamadou Diallo, we're still waiting on that. And then, of course, the Summer League preview.

So, as always, thank you all for listening, and we will see you in that next episode.