Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 57: Mid-Summer League thoughts

Episode Date: August 16, 2021

This episode, recorded shortly after the team's third of five Summer League games, discusses individual and team performance.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Driving to the Basket. It's part of the Basketball Podcast Network. I'm Mike. I'm here as usual with Dante and Tommy. That was how you doing? I'm excited. It's not often that you have to do a mid-summer league check-in, but I feel like there's a lot to talk about. So I say we get it started. Yeah, absolutely. It's been a blast and people seem to be really enjoying their first look at these guys. Yeah. So the reason this is a mid-summer league podcast. Sort of a mid-Summer League episode is that we actually didn't have time to record after game four. And probably not after game five. This is the time to work for us, you know, full disclosure. But we'll be back afterward, not long after the end of summer league, which will be either on the 16th or the 17th, the final game has not yet been determined the date. So we'll back them with the final review.

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what's what's his name picket uh no i'm just kidding uh it's kate kidding yeah so you almost out of me for a second yeah this was this entire thing with the draft was just misdirection and uh you know so so that we really uh you know so we could just you get this guy in full of you without anybody focusing on him you know the next generational talent for the piston's such and such picket i don't remember his first name anyway yeah all right So Kate Cunningham, obviously the biggest name for the Pistons, arguably the biggest name in Summer League period, you know, period because he's the first overall pick. So there's been, I wouldn't say controversy. I don't like that word.

There's been some disappointment to a degree about his performance. I think I share in that a bit. It should be prefaced, I believe, whatever, it should be noted that there's a wide distinction between being disappointed with his play and thinking. oh my goodness was just the right draft pick. Well, I'll say it for me. You know, there's some of the former. There's none of the latter. I'm not worried.

It's just, you know, we waited these months for, for, you know, summer week to come along. It was a lot of excitement because it was the first overall pick, and I was just looking for some takeover basketball, which we haven't quite seen. This isn't a problem that we didn't get it. It's just disappointing. But, yeah, I've been reminded that we should first talk

about the roster and the coaching, though, and that is true. So Tommy, what are your thoughts on both of those? Well, I know you have plain to say on the coaching, so I'll leave that one to you. But as far as the roster goes, I think it's just been disappointing the way that the roster's construction has kind of limited what the pistons have been able to do, starting off by talking about Cade Cunningham, obviously. The fact that we don't have a legitimate lob threat has been so frustrating to watch because

there have definitely been times when Cade has a lob and he knows that he would. have that read, but he would bring the ball. If I saw this happen at least twice, he'd bring the ball up to put up a lob, and then he'd bring it back down because he knows the guy he was going to pass it to, which I think was both times was Tyler Cook, wasn't going to be able to go up and get it over whoever was defending. And one of the times it was Schengoon. So I just, it makes me wish we had gotten a guy like Jericho Sims with that 57th pick

because at the very least it would have made Summer League a little bit more fun. But, yeah, it's. it's been a real problem. The front court, rather the back court has been great. Or they've been adequate. But I just think that the relative weakness compared to the competition of the front court has just been a real pain. And it's led to a lot of lower assist numbers and just significantly reduced interior presence. So it's been disappointing to say the least because I feel like it really limited what some of these guys were able to do.

Yeah. And I think that's kind of a good preface to. a lot of what we're going to be talking about because you have to consider that it's it's not like the organization is putting the utmost level of diligence into constructing like the best summer league roster possible right they're really just looking to get a look at guys put them in different situations kind of see what they have and so that lack of a vertical lob threat or even the lack of competent front court players has really affected a lot of other players and so that has a big impact on wins and losses and who's scoring and who's doing what.

And, you know, someone like Cades assists, for example, would have gone way up if he had some competent front court players around him. So what Tommy's saying, I think, is important in the context of this discussion and that these games don't matter. This roster is not optimally constructed. And so everything that we talk about needs to be kind of understood within that framework. Of course. And it's also a summer league, you know, that that is what it is.

you're not playing with necessarily a properly coached team or proper MBA roster. And yeah, I wouldn't say that the roster has been sort of that it doesn't have optimal construction. I would call it a dumpster fire, you know, to use a crude term. That's one way to put it. Yeah, the roster is an absolute another mess. I mean, part of it is that you've got guys working on things that aren't necessarily within their skill set. Like Sadiq Bay, for example, isn't just taking a lot of threes. I mean, that's going to hurt your spacing.

But in general, there's just nowhere near enough shooting. Killian's, you know, we'll talk with these players in greater detail and in an individual detail on this episode. But Killian apparently still can't shoot. Saban lead, you know, aside from McCullough, he's just, he's hesitant to shoot. Tyler Cook can't shoot. Saku shot poorly. You know, you just, you don't have anywhere near enough shooters. Servetus who gets on the floor occasionally can't shoot.

And one of these games, the Pistons, like players not named Cade, I think, had like two threes the entire game. So you can't really run a viable offense like that. And I understand it's just because of wanting these guys to get reps, but it's just ugly. And down the middle, yeah, they're super weak. You've got Garza who, you know, it's really,

again, we'll talk about him. But he's not going to be a lot threat. He's not really going to be a role threat. You've got Cook, who is good at nothing, absolutely nothing. And so just a lot of options were taken away, and you've got a lot of guys operating in very little space with not much to do. I do have to say, I think the coaching has been terrible. The first two games, it was just like an amorphous blob, the offense was. And especially when it comes to the bigs, like, okay, you have Cook and all he's good for is to set picks and roll to the basket.

instead of you have him setting, you know, just setting weak screens and slipping into the basket. You have Garza, who's better as a pop threat. Instead, you have him, like, setting picks and then rolling lightly into, like, the middle of the interior. You're running three-yard lineups with Killian, Kate, and Saban Lee that have either one or two shooters on the floor. And, yeah, it's, you know, especially in the first game, and it was, like, Cook, who was doing it. Yeah. So just the coaching, I think, overall, has been terrible. And that may be the most painful thing, it is the most painful thing for me in Summer League

is watching Summer League so far as how bad the coaching is. Yeah, I agree with you. I think that takes us to Cade, though. And I'm actually really happy that he hasn't been thrown into the fire yet because I'm still scarred personally by what we saw from Killian last year when they just put him in the starting lineup immediately. And I think it really did a number on his confidence. So I'm pretty happy with the way that they've kind of eased him into this.

I know that we'd all like to see him get more reps in terms of ball handling. That's like supposed to be a big part of what he does and his impact as a player. But I think after the first game where he shot, was it two of seven from three, the next game he shoots four of nine. And then last night he shot seven of ten. I think easing him into it has helped him get more comfortable, at least with the shooting aspect of it. So I think that that's been good. And I think if you give him too much, maybe it does rattle him a little bit, and that's not good for his confidence. And so personally, I'm okay with the fact that they're taking it slow with him.

And I think that is the right approach. Yeah, before I start about Cade, I just want to note that Mike's use of the term amorphous blob was probably my favorite thing that I've heard this week. And I'm going to strive to include that term in my vocabulary moving forward. Never heard it before and I like it. I would not use that term to describe Cade's play, though, because I understand that there's been some. Yeah, Mike touched on it. disappointment, I guess, is one word, maybe hesitancy towards, Mike's not going this far, but I've seen some people express some hesitancy towards using the number one overall pick

and Cade and it's like, oh, we should have taken green because X, Y, Z. I think it's far too early to hit the panic button, especially when you consider the fact that I actually think that Kate has played very well. His first game was all right. He was inefficient, little turnover prone, not especially great, but I thought he showed flashes of what makes him or what's going to make him a special player. And then game two, he just came out with such fire. And I think there's something to be said about coming out and performing at a high level off the bat when you're in what I guess you can call a rivalry game. I know that Cade said that he ignored all the talk surrounding him and Jalen, but at the end of the day, that's a very real thing that's in these players' minds.

I mean, they're human beings too. And when the lights shine the brightest, right, we've, we know. from his time at Oklahoma State that Cade elevates his level of play. And I thought that he came out very strong against Jalen. I thought he played great defense on him. He showed a little bit more in terms of efficiency. He showed a little bit more strength in terms of driving to the basket and finishing through contact. Still no free throws, though, which wasn't great.

I didn't love to see it. But then last night, so we're recording this Saturday morning, last night was Cade's seven for ten performance from three. I really enjoyed that. I had a lot of fun watching that. I thought he showed good acumen as a passer. I thought that he had one good drive where he kind of chucked the ball up and it went in. And you could attribute that to luck, but you could also attribute that to just having a good touch and feel around the rim.

And then his shooting from range is just, it's Tommy and I were talking about this. It's butter. Like he hits the back of the rim every single time and it just looks like it's going to drop. And he's not just hitting him from the catch and shoot. He can hit off the dribble. He can hit from a step back three. he can hit not just right at the three point line but a little bit back from there and so even though i agree with tommy and that we'd love to see him take on more ball handling duties he's perfectly adept um at playing off

ball as well very adept as an outside shooter and and it's not just stand still threes not just catch and shoot threes it's step back off the dribble from longer range so that's proving to be a very valuable skill as well and i guess overall to kind of wrap this in a bow and in summation i'm not concerned i'm actually pretty encouraged with his level of play so far. And considering he's gone from me to pretty good to, in my opinion, very good. I'm excited to see what he's going to close Summer League out with. So my concern is just that, and again, this is probably just out of largely, I'd say almost entirely actually, out of just disappointment that he didn't come in and have these sort of takeover performances we've seen from other players, like in particular Jalen Green, who just can find

his own offense. That's no if, sands or bots about that. And I'm not comparing the two. It's just it would have been nice to see K to have one of those games. So yeah, he did shoot really well from three. And that is nice. Last, you know, last night, excuse me, shot really well from three.

We haven't seen him do anything with the ball yet. And that's really where a lot of his utility is supposed to be found. So that's the only mildly concerning thing for me. And, you know, I agree with, it's basically, yeah, the guy doesn't look like he's out of shape. He does look like he's a little bit out of shape. You know, there's a lot, especially toward the end of games of just waning over at his hands on his knees.

I don't know if it's because he just didn't play five on five for so long. But yeah, he seems weirdly out of condition at the moment. And so, but also it's just his ability to beat other players off the dribble has been not good. Even around picks, guys have been able to stay pretty close to him. I know he needs to add strength. You can't really do the things against summer league level opposition, which is kind of in between the NCAA and the NBA. He can't do that.

I mean, he can't go in and push them around and get to his spots like he could in the NCAA. So he needs to add some strength. I think that's clear just by looking at him. He looks a little bit thin in the upper body. So just, yeah, like the idea was that he was this, you know, and taking this turn. from, I've seen it used by various people. So just, you know, no copyright.

This Helios Center creator, who you're going to play around, like, kind of a Luca or Hardin or whatever else, who's just your primary ball handler. And we just haven't seen any of that yet. And that does concern me a bit because, you know, you should be able to, as the number one pick or just as a guy's as well thought of as Cade, go around to pick, get into the paint and really be able to do something. And maybe he just hasn't been assigned to do that or hasn't been trying or whatever. You know, whatever.

And a part of it, the stuff on the ball is they want to get time for Killian. But that's what's been disappointing for me. And hopefully there's an explanation for it. And I'm not concerned. But it's just been weird. Yeah, I wouldn't say that I'm concerned about that part of me. Because for a guy like Kate, I'm really any good player who's supposed to be a dynamic shot creator, you need spacing around them.

And that just hasn't been there at all. in Summer League. I think in the third game, we shot a little bit better, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Cade plays a better game. Obviously, even then, he's not getting to the free throw line. He's not doing a whole lot of stuff inside, but like you said, he just needs to add strength and maybe get adjusted to the size and physicality of the NBA.

Like we said, his physicals are not his biggest advantage, I'll put it that way. He has to just learn to play the game against these guys pick apart the defense with IQ and just really good feel for the game more so than athletic ability. Like Jalen Green, I mean, this is where he's supposed to dominate. He's going to be the most athletic guy probably in Summer League. He's faster than everybody. To his credit, he's hitting all his shots.

He's hitting a lot of his shots. I know he got blocked four times against the pistons, but every other shot looks fantastic. Whereas Cade, he's creating a little bit more space with driest. triple moves, and it's easier to do that on the perimeter when you're operating in more space and you're operating one-on-one as opposed to you go and you drive in and it's Oklahoma State all over again. Like three guys collapse on you. In the NBA, if we can put more shooting around him, it'll be a lot better of a situation for him in terms of what he'll be able to do. And then if you give him a decent lob threat, he'll have a much better time then as well. I just don't think

that he has the right pieces around him for him to be able to take advantage of all the these good things that he's supposed to be able to do with the ball in his hand. So I'm not surprised that his best aspect has been his perimeter shooting because that's a, that's an individual thing. And he's creating a lot of these shots for himself. So it makes sense to me. Yeah, I agree that he is a lot more fit dependent that for his offense than, then it's Jalen Green, who, yeah, is just going to be an expert shot greater in the NBA.

And yeah, it hasn't been ideal at the same time. It's like, you know, go inside and create something. But the guy just doesn't look like he's in this sort of shape he should be in right now, just in terms of his conditioning or in terms of his strength. So who knows? But, you know, part of it also, he's not the focused primary ball handler for the pistons. They are not playing around him. This is, we're seeing this.

They made it clear that this was going to be the case, or, you know, that Dwayne Casey did, rather. They're going to try to get reps for Killian also. And so one of the stories has been. and the, you know, how well this is worked trying to share the ball handling duties. So you guys have any anything else to add about Cade before we move on to Killian? Yeah, I think he's performing fairly well for someone who's 5 foot 11. Yeah, that's what a weird thing to deal with. It's so odd.

And on a serious note, I was looking at him next to Jailing Green and he looks taller than him. And even if Green grew a little bit, I think that would still put Cade roughly at the bare minimum, like six, seven and a half. I think with shoes on and on the court, he's six, eight, so I really am not seeing the issue. He basically should be noted that the NCAA in almost every other league measures height in shoes, the NBA switched to without shoes at the start of the 2019, 2020 season. So I would guess that Cate's probably about six, six and a half, and that he was, because shoes generally on average will add between one and one and a half inches.

So I'm guessing he's about six, six and a half. And then with shoes on and rounded up, he was six eight in the NCAA. So on the court, I guess, when it matters, I would put him at six, eight, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, I just wanted to say when we were talking about Jalen Green, if you put Kate on the Rockets roster, they had a fantastic draft. Yeah. Sangoon looks fantastic.

Christopher looks like a great value pick. Garuba hasn't even, I don't even think he's played yet. I think he's still coming over from Spain and the Olympic stuff. but put Kate on that roster, they're playing a much better game. He's got a lot more opportunities there. I think it's, when you talk about Cade's performance,

it's just very important to contextualize it with the team around him so far. And definitely the Pistons, I mean, any good player needs shooting around them to be the most effective, unless you're talking about like an ISO god like KD,

but it's just night and day the difference in quality of the roster. So I'm not going to hold that against Cade. Yeah, it's a, you know, It's a wait and see, obviously, and I don't think anybody, in my opinion, nobody should be worried. For me, it's just disappointment, you know, just all the hype around this. And it's like, let's see this. Like, you got out there and, you know, and crush some Summer League, some Summer League opponents.

And who knows, maybe we'll see more of that in games four and five. But I think in this Summer League, the Pistons, instead of your average team in Summer League, it's just going to put out a roster and go out there and try and win games. And the Pistons have been much more focused on. on experimentation and getting and getting usage for various guys in different ways rather than just going out and saying, well, let's do the thing that's going to best help us win. So it makes sense by they're doing it that way at the same time. Just on a purely emotional level, it's a little frustrating to watch because we haven't seen

basketball in so long and won't see it again for a couple months after this. All right, so on to Killian. Yeah, so he's been a disappointment. He's definitely been part of some of the issues that we've done. seen. I mean, in game two, this is kind of bridging the gap between these two players. The team as a whole shot three of 26, and then outside of them, Cade shot four of nine. You know, it's very difficult to win games that way. And one of the things I was really hoping that Killian would have worked on coming into this would have been his shooting,

because obviously if he's going to be a complete player, he needs to up his three ball. And last season, and a weird season that it was, he shot 12% off the dribble, and then I think just over 30% on catch-and-shoot threes. So coming into this, I was really hoping he would look maybe more comfortable at the very least on the catch-and-shoot, but that has not been the case. And I think the biggest one was kind of at the end of the Rockets game, where he had a wide open three, like two guys eight feet away from him on either side, and he still hesitated to take the three. and it kind of goes back to my running theory that most of his issues stem from confidence and just hesitation, and it's really difficult to be an effective player that way, because he can't drive in and he's contact averse and he doesn't want to shoot the ball or he hesitates to shoot the ball.

And he just cannot maintain that he can't continue like that. So Killian Hayes has been just an enormous disappointment in my eyes. I mean, the passing, Mike and I were talking about this a few days ago. I think Killian Hayes has good passing vision, but I think the difference between him and a guy like Lamello ball is that Lamello puts the ball exactly where it needs to be. He is a precision passer. Kielion, I still think that he makes more difficult reads and he recognizes the passes better than the average guard, but I don't think he has the precision on his passes yet. and then there was that late turnover where he tried to bounce it ahead to Cade on the break

and he put it about six feet too far in front of him and it resulted in a turnover. Just stuff like that. He just seems uncomfortable and I think it doesn't feel like it's coming naturally to him. I think part of that is just the lack of confidence. Well, I agree that he's been a huge disappointment. I mean, it's only been like three months since the season ended, but players usually don't make kind of quantum leaps in that amount of time. time, but he doesn't look very different than he did last season.

And last season, you know, put it whatever way you want. And rookies are usually bad. And rookie point guards are usually really bad, you know, often really bad. But Killian, you know, in terms of pure stats, is one of the worst players in the league. You know, it's just a horrendously inefficient. And that leaves us, you know, quite turnover prone and that leaves aside just how little gravity he attracted. And how little of it, you know, just how little of a spacing threat, you know, that does two go together. but yeah i've seen nothing from him and again can preface this with you know being disappointed

is not equal to well you know this guy is screwed this is just disappointing you know he's he's a player who hasn't really played a full NBA season and he's young and whatever but i agree with tommy completely hesitant doesn't want to shoot when he drives into the interior and he sees people in front of him his first instinct and he almost he does this almost 100% of the time is past so can't shoot, can't get to the rim. And I'd say another, I'm not sure if I agree with the accuracy of his passes, but as opposed to Lamello, definitely a big difference between Heelamelo's in terms of what they do, which is Lamello wants to take these shots, and he wants to get to get to the basket. And he is super confident. It's also that Lamello attracts gravity on the way to the basket. It's like,

even in Summer League opponents seem to really realize that all they have to do is present some opposition to Killian and he will pass the ball. You're not going to track gravity that way if you're a non-threat to score at the rim. Killian might love his floater, but that's not an efficient shot, and opponents will be happy to give it to him. So it's just been an all-around disappointments. He's been good on defense, and that's nice. And I should say, yeah, as a rookie in the NBA, even, he was pretty good on defense. So we can say he was one of the worst players in the week on offense, be better put. But it just, he hasn't looked like he's particularly good at anything in Summer League.

Like nothing at all. He's been a complete flop on offense there. On defense, good. But on offense, a huge flop. Yeah. When I said that, I was like, I was hoping that he would come into Summer League and the reduced competition would be good for him. Like, I thought maybe putting him into the starting lineup in that level of

physicality and talent, it's the best in the world. Maybe that was rough for him, which is why a few episodes ago, I was talking about how I want Killian to come off the bench to start the year because I just think it's easier opposition. Maybe that helps him with his confidence. maybe he's able to take advantage of the subpar, or the reduced athleticism, rather, and learn to just be more confident, take contact, and build up his strength and his confidence in himself.

But Summer League, I mean, that's an even lower level of competition. It's not bad, but he still is making, it seems like regardless of who he plays, he just doesn't believe that he's going to be able to get to the rim, that he's going to be able to muscle around these guys. He's taking difficult shots rather than taking in some. side, completely contact diverse. But I will say this, yes, the defense has been excellent, and he definitely seems very, very confident in that.

He really put the clamps on Jalen Green, undoubtedly, and it was a lot of fun to see. Like, you don't see a lot of guys. Even at the NBA level, I don't think there's going to be a lot of guys who are going to be able to stay in front of Jalen Green like that. So on that end, yeah, very impressive. Kate as well, like they're a legitimately good defensive backcourt. Yeah, what's doubly annoying about Killian to me is that,

I don't know if I necessarily agree, Mike, that he's been a complete flop in every area. I think that he's shown out. I know you mentioned the defense, but I still think his passing is really, really good, and he's a plus plus passer, a plus defender. But the problem is, and as you guys have noted repeatedly, it doesn't matter. If you can't score, if you don't attract any semblance of gravity, it literally doesn't matter what else you can do because you're just not a valuable player on the court.

So when Killian is missing wide open threes, when he's showing absolute. zero ability to go right, even look right. He's not getting to the rim. He's not drawing contact. He's not doing anything to show that he's a scoring threat. What does it matter if you have great vision or if you have great defense? You're just a liability. So I see the raw potential there. And it's very frustrating that he can't put it all together with the one thing that he needs to really sort of fully encompass his game or fully realize his game rather to the point where he'd be an effective player. And I don't know if I fully agree with what you said, Tommy, about the comparison to Lamello in that he doesn't place the ball with precision. I think vision is more important than

precision. Like if nine out of ten passes, he sees that no one else is going to see and he gets the ball there. I would take that at the expense of not putting the ball right exactly in the shooting pocket. And I also think there's something to be said about if you're in the NBA, you shouldn't have to have the ball hit you mid-stroke right in the hands to be able to score. He still finds open guys. And a lot of the times it's not his fault if they can't finish those open threes. But I think it's more to do with what Mike said in that the difference between Killian and Lamello is that Lamello, as good of a passer as he is, as gifted of a passer as he is, he's

constantly hunting his own shot, which means that he attracts gravity, which means that it actually opens up more passing lanes and makes him a more effective passer. So right now, yeah, I know it's just Summer League. Again, I've been hesitant to hit the panic button, but I said on our last podcast, the level of competition is lower. I don't know if the level of athleticism is lower, but I just think the competition and the basketball IQ that he's facing is lower in general. Significantly lower.

Yeah, significantly. Significantly. So what I'd like to see, or this is what I said, what I would have liked to see was him be able to find his shot easier. And when he finds the shot, hit them. and he just isn't. And if he's not hitting them now, I mean, like, what is he going to do against NDA level defense?

It's just, it's really frustrating and I'd like to give them time and not give up on him, but the early returns are not promising. Yeah, I mean, he has taken a couple of difficult, not difficult, but more bold shots on the perimeter. And he had that nice dribble move on the perimeter yesterday. And that was fun to see. And he knocked it down, but I just think that guys who are going to come in and take these shots they need to do on a consistent basis.

And then as far as the passing, this is something I started looking for at the end of last season because it became egregious enough that a lot of people noticed it. People are not finishing the potential assist that Killian Hayes was dishing to them. And so I started kind of watching that. And a lot of times, like Killian, he does this thing where he goes inside and then he'll jump and then turn around midair and then throw the ball over his head. And it looks really pretty, and it's definitely a way to see guys that you otherwise wouldn't see. And I think that's part of the reason why his passing looks so good, and his vision has gotten the reputation that it has.

But it's not a precision pass. A lot of times, guys are catching it high or off to the side or low. So just working on that. And even Cade hasn't been, I wouldn't say he's been a precision passer so far. But that's just going to come from reps. And I'm not overly concerned about that. It's just I don't, I wouldn't say that Killian Hayes is already like a top passer in the league. still has stuff to work on is all I'm saying when I bring up stuff like that.

You also have to look at, you know, what, you know, what the fit with Kate will be like looking forward. I don't buy the notion that you can just have, you know, two ball handlers. And it's like, you know, one A and one B. You don't want that, I would say. Particularly if Kate ends up being who you hope he is, just this really big, really adept ball handler, you just give him the ball and he just, you know, he runs your offense. you can't have Killian around and it's just like oh well we'll let him do it too it's like

what is the point of that and it's summer league fine but you go on the regular season do you really want to be risking stunting the development of your of your first overall pick by saying oh well we need to give this other guy you know his reps also it's like what it comes down to is hopefully Kate is you know is what everybody hopes he's going to be in that case he is a better option than Killian and if Killian wants to play with him he needs to I mean, Killing needs to develop his off ball skills, period. Like period, period.

It doesn't matter how good of a defender he is. You know, if you can't shoot, you know, you know, if you've got like Killing and you can't shoot, if you're almost anybody out in the perimeter, you can't shoot, you're done. So, you know, if you can't shoot well, he's out of the NBA. But, you know, he's going to have to play, yeah,

more of that off. He's going to have to be a guy who's willing and able to shoot threes on high volume and high percentage. And maybe he does some ball handling with Kato, the floor but yeah going into the mda it's like dude you can't you can't be doing that it just can't no if yeah no and unfortunately and and this is sort of maybe we can round out the discussion with killian here i know tommy and i had a lot to say about this we were texting each other uh watching the games too the fit with killian and kade was such a point of emphasis going into the summer league

and i i really don't like it um not even less to do with kylian as a player and more like it's like said, Mike, if Cade becomes what we want him to become, he really needs as many reps as possible. He needs to be the one initiating the offense. And the fact of the matter is, Cade's ability right now to shoot from anywhere and shoot at a very high percentage makes him infinitely more valuable as an offensive initiator than Cillian. Because Cillian can't do that. So Cade at the bare minimum, even if he can't put the ball on the floor and blow by guys quite yet, maybe he never will. I'm sure he'll become craftier and find ways to finish inside. But Kate is just a much, much, much more valuable player right now.

And him and Killian sharing these ball handling duties just for the sake of doing so, just because Casey says we want to have a 1A, 1B. Number one, it doesn't look good. And number two, it doesn't really make sense. Like, this is the NBA. You guys are getting paid millions of dollars. And it's not a pity party. You know, it's not like a participation-riven competition.

You don't need to give Killian these offensive initiation reps just because, he's there. If Cade gives you the best option, which I think we all believe that he does, he needs to be the guy bringing the ball up the court or if not bringing the ball up the court, starting the offense, running the pick and roll, making the offense happen. So I just am really, really not liking the fit. On defense, maybe, on defense it's shown potential, but on the more important side of the ball on offense, just it hasn't looked good. I don't think it has. Yeah, I mean, I guess I would have to disagree with you guys a little bit. I don't think there's anything wrong with having more than one ball handler.

And as far as Cade goes, like, if he's going to be playing close to 40 minutes a game, look at the way he's already getting, like, absolutely hunted when he has the ball. He gets doubles. He's got that target on his back. I know that he embraces that, but he's also going to get tired. And I think it's just a good idea to have somebody who can shoulder the load a little bit. And if that's Jeremy Grant, that's fine. But if Killian can be a legitimate offensive initiator, the guy that he was

projected to be coming into the draft. It's still very valuable, and I think it's a good idea. I mean, sure, you can, you could even play it this way. Like, you have one of those guys on the court at all times. Like, you could pull Killian out early, put a shooter next to, put a shooter in his place, and then you could have 48 minutes of the duo of Killinghays and Kid Cunningham, assuming that those are two guys that you actually want on the floor. And you'll always have, like, a good offensive initiator. But I don't think that the fit between those guys has to be bad. it's still not the ideal fit that I wanted when we were talking about the pre-draft stuff. I still think that the ideal fit next to Cunningham, especially on this roster, would be a very athletic two guard who can cut, shoot the ball, and play above the rim a little bit, just because I think that kind of balances out some of the deficiencies of Cade.

And while Cillian isn't that, I still think that they can be a duo that is greater than the sum of their parts, but it definitely starts with Killian being able to shoot. and find a proper balance next to Cade. Again, I am not upset that they're easing Cade into this, that he hasn't done so much with the ball in his hands yet. I think that's to the benefit of his development, both as a shooter and in terms of his confidence. And I think by the end of Summer League and maybe even 20 games into the regular season, you're going to get to see a lot more of what Cade was projected to be coming into the draft.

I just think that they're easing him into it. And after what we went through with Killian last year, I think that's the smart play. Patience is not something that I have any trouble with when it comes to these guys. If I think that it's to the benefit of their long term, I'm more than happy to go that route. I don't think that they're easing them into it. I don't think they need to ease them into it. I think that they just want to give reps to Killian and they want to give reps to Saban Lee.

And so, yeah, when it comes to Killian, no, nobody's saying that it's bad to have another ball handle on the floor. However, I would say it's unequivocally bad to have another ball handler on the floor when it's like, oh, well, both of these guys need to initiate on the ball. So we're just going to kind of switch off. Sure, if you have Caden, what you hope he is, he sees should be the primary handler, the primary initiator on offense. If Cillian's going to be a guy who can only, you know, who is by far at his best on the ball, then that is a bad fit. I'd say that it's unequivocally a bad fit because then it's like, okay, well, for Cillian to be effective, then we're going to need to just give him the ball and shove Cade into an upball rule. And it's like, okay, well, then that's significant overlap. And you don't want that sort of overlap.

So I know I've said in the past that Lanzo, you know, this is before the business won the lottery, that it would be disappointing if Killian ended up being sort of a Wanzo ball sort of player, which is basically, you know, take threes, play defense, and do some secondary playmaking, particularly in transition. And now I think, like, if Killian is going to be, is going to be playing next to Kate

and Kate is going to be doing the things that the Pistons hope he can do. That might be his ideal role, you know, and then he can handle the ball more when Kate isn't on the floor. But if you're playing next to this kind of heliocentric creator, you don't want him to be just giving up the ball solely so that his partner in the back court can be more useful because that's just not, you know, that's, that is a duo that is less than the sum of its parts.

So I think, I think Killian can do more than the mom. Monzo could on offense. I think he'd have much better time at getting into the basket. Hopefully he can overcome his issues with confidence or whatever it else it is on that end, you know, in that end of things and be like a genuinely good creator. But if you want to play next to Kate, I think he has to just be able to shoot those threes in high volume. And that that's going to be his best role. Or maybe attacking as a playmaker off the ball, catch it in stride and do something with it. Yeah, Mike, you literally read my mind.

Literally. I was going to say, I don't think it's a bad thing for a team to have multiple ball handlers either. In fact, I might even say that to go deep into the playoffs, it's actually a necessity to have two guys who can initiate the offense and handle the ball at a high level. I just, I don't, I agree with you. I don't think they would be giving Killian those offensive initiation reps because it gives us the best chance to win or because it's the best setup. I think they're doing it or saying that they're going to do it just for the sake of giving Killian that chance. And honestly, he's done it for the games that he's played in last season. He's done it all Summer League. He just doesn't look good. Kade just looks infinitely better. Like they're not even

in the same class as a player right now. And I don't even think Kate has been all that spectacular. I think he's been good, but not spectacular. Whereas Killion just, he can't score. And if you can't score, you can't be the guy initiating the offense. So the 1A, 1B, splitting the ball handling duties just for the sake of doing it is not going to work for me. And I don't think it's going to work for the team. It's frustrating. And I don't think it's in the best interest of winning. So I agree with you, I think what Killian is going to need to do is sort of learn to, I guess, be that kind of secondary guy, maybe take on that Lonzo ball-esque role. But at the end of the day, I'd really like Cade to get the keys to this offense.

And I don't know. It's just not working. I guess I'll just maintain that I do think that they're just easing him into it. Maybe it's just wishful thinking and maybe it's just me seeing what I want to see after what we had to deal with last season. But regardless, I think it's working. you know, Cade has continued to shoot the ball better and better, I guess, three-game sample size. It could just as easily be flipped around, and maybe I'm saying something completely different.

But I don't know. I guess I just, I'm okay with the way that things have gone in terms of the way that they brought Cade into this. And the fact that Saban is also getting a lot more ball handling when they're on the floor together, I think they are just making a conscious decision to ease Cade into this because I don't think anybody, on that roster is unaware of how good of a passer the Kate is. I don't know if maybe it's just because he got drafted like two weeks ago. They're not comfortable with that. Or maybe they're just trying to get these other guys, the reps that they think that they need more.

I don't know what it is, but as far as Cade's development and Cillian's development, I think they're going about it the right way. This is a perfect time for, this shouldn't have been the perfect time for Killing to come into a league where he is one of the better players on the floor and one of the more capable. capable players on the floor and he's supposed to dominate, but I think mental setbacks are just preventing that. So to say that Killian has been disappointing is a bit of an understatement at this point. And I just hope that at some point it clicks for him and he's able to play more confidently

because I still think that is the root of his issues. I don't think, again, I'm just, I'm going to say, I don't think it's, I think Killian is getting ball handling reps. It has nothing to do with bringing Kate along slowly. I think they were open, Dwayne Gacy was open about, you know, we want to get all these guys' reps here. And I think that's why Killian is getting reps at the ball.

Saban is getting reps with the ball, I think for the same reason also because he can't do anything off the ball. And if this is them just trying to get guys experience, then, yeah, I don't think it's about bringing Kate along slowly. Maybe that's a factor in it. But I think that the primary thing is them just wanting the other guys to get the chance. And basically that is Killian attacking and Kate hanging out off the ball and for the most part doing nothing.

And goodness gracious, when they're on the, when Killian and Cade and Saban, we are all on the floor, it is super ugly, super, super, super ugly. But they're handling the ball because they have to. It's an amorphous blob when they're on the court together. I'm not a fan of it. But speaking of something I am a fan of, you guys ready to move on to Sadiq Bay? Yeah, let's do it. Yeah.

Bay, I don't think to anyone's surprise if you've watched any of these games, it's pretty obvious that the team is looking to get him reps. number one is a playmaker and number two someone who can operate inside the arc and find kind of find their own shot and based on what i've seen and i feel like you guys will agree with me i think it's been um a modest success i think that bay has shown a pretty good back to the basket game his footwork is really really really nice and it's just the shot just looks automatic um he's a little bit bigger than those guys who tend to be guarding him up inside uh inside the arc and he's finishing those shots at what I think is a pretty good clip. So that's good. He's taking some more

motion threes as well, that famous side step that he does, which we'll call it a side step because we don't even really have a name for it. I don't really see anybody doing it like he does. Those are falling too. That's looking nice. Where he has sort of started to kind of sputter out is they were like, okay, you're having some success creating your own shot. Let's see you initiate the offense. And Bays brought the ball up the floor a couple of times and sort of started the offensive set at the perimeter and that doesn't look good. That's not there yet. He just doesn't have the quickness or the tight handles and fluidity to kind of make that happen at a consistent level. But I don't know. I'm encouraged by those early returns. I think he is starting to show that he's more than just a

3 and D player. And yeah, it's encouraging. Now, like I said, that all the way out, let's start behind the perimeter and let's initiate the offense. Not quite there. Not sure it's ever going to be there. But as far as these more moderate things that he's working on, I'd say that it's encouraging. I don't think it's really gone all that well, and that's fine. I mean, that's fine that it hasn't gone all that well.

I know that this is another one of the things with which the Pistons really wanted to experiment. I think that seems pretty clear. They want to see what he can do as far as creating offense. And I'd say the returns are pretty poor. I don't think he's really done all that well. struggles to take the ball and get to the basket. Generally, he ends up posting up or just twirling around a bit. And it ends with him taking a bad shot. I mean, for almost anybody, a spin-around's fadeaway jumper from the post or from anywhere, you know, even if you're doing it

in space, is just a bad shot. Hardly anybody can make off the dribble mid-range offense efficient, period. I mean, that's why you see it done so rarely is because it's just incredibly difficult to make that a worthwhile shot. So if that's how his possessions are going to end when he tries to drive in and create his own shot, then it's just bad offense because, you know, you've got to, if you want to be taking that shot on a consistent basis, you want to be hitting it at least like 47%. And the number of guys who can do it on a shot with that degree of difficulty is very well.

There's also the fact that, you know, hardly anybody in the NBA attempts post offense on high volume is just very, very difficult, or even medium volume. We're talking guys with more than three shots a game from the post are not very many of them. And the vast majority of them are all-stars. So it's, yeah, I just don't see his offensive creation translating in the NBA. And it's like he doesn't have to be a good creator. If he's a guy who can just shoot threes and make the right pass and play defense, then great. You know, that's fine with me.

Yeah, I'm not surprised that they're working on this fade-away turnaround. mid-post thing. I saw it and I was like, oh, that's, that's interesting. And it's, it's one of those shots that I think from Summer League to the NBA would translate fairly easily. I mean, it's a difficult shot. So I don't know how you can say that it'll be easy. But just because it's one of the most unguaratable shots and the reason hardly anybody takes it, despite that, is because it is an incredibly difficult shot to put up efficiently. But I don't think Sadiq is going to be the kind of guy who ever gets to the rim with strength. He doesn't really have the vertical for it, and he doesn't have the burst either.

So if this is what his move has to be, you know, if you kick out to him on the perimeter and he tries to take it inside, he attacks the clothes out, and he doesn't make it all the way, he needs to have more than just the pass as his threat. So I guess I'm happy that they're working on it, but I don't think this is going to be something that he takes a ton of in the big league. So that's fine with me. And then as far as his perimeter shooting in Summer League, obviously he hasn't shot the ball very well. And it's been a little bit concerning to me.

I'm glad that they're working on it because clearly they are running a little bit more in terms of getting him coming off the screens and off ball, like running plays for him to get open on the perimeter. It's just he's not hitting those shots. And then you compare that to the standstill, catch and shoot threes, which he's knocking down pretty reliably. It's just a little bit disappointing that that shot still hasn't translated. I'm glad that they're working on it. So it's encouraging that it's like with Garza, like they know what they need to work on and they are working on it. But I think Sadiq has, you know, he's definitely been billed as a guy who just puts his head

down and works, and I think that will eventually come into fruition. He definitely has the natural shooting touch. And I'm not saying that this is not something that's ever going to come around. I definitely think it's going to come around eventually. If I had to guess, I would say it's more likely than not that he will eventually be able to reliably knock down that motion three-point shot. And I think that is his role going forward more so than post offense. Yeah, this, I completely agree with you, Tommy.

This last thing, these last few things I'll say about Bay and then we'll move on and sort of wrap things up. But I completely agree. I think that's a really good point that you made about Bay's going to need another option. If you kick out to him, he opts not to take the shot and then he drives in and he gets kind of stuck. I never thought that that back to the basket sort of crazy footwork spinning fadeaway shot is like Dwayne Casey draws it up in the huddle and that's the go-to shot that the pistons are going to use to get a go-head basket. I think that's sort of a last resort, or if not a last resort, sort of a plan B, plan C, in case Sadiq can't do what he wants to do at the rim.

And that's something that is always good to have in your tool belt is the fact that you're not just stuck and now you're going to turn the ball over. It's something that you can do. And then as far as the motion threes are concerned, I agree that Sadiq hasn't shot the ball particularly well. But one thing that I was looking for, and this is just me, maybe you guys disagree, but I was looking to see if he could get to those spots, if he could create that space to show that he has a more diverse way to get his shot off.

I was less concerned with whether or not those shots actually drop because we know that he's a good player already. So I think he's created space on those sidesteps. I think he's created space on these motion threes. That's what I was looking for and that's what I was referring to when I said that the returns were promising. Yeah, motion threes are definitely his next frontier. I don't think that the,

I mean, I think that Bayes option B or option C if he runs into, if he runs into opposition on his way, on his way to the interior and the NBA is passed. Because like I said, this turnaround fadeaway jump shot, hardly anybody is going to make that an efficient shot. Like hardly anybody at all. And sure, if he can make it at a high percentage, you have that will translate. I'm not confident. There are definitely some very good shooters in the NBA who cannot do it and who don't. attempt mid-range offense because, well, some of them just because it makes more sense for them to shoot from the perimeter. But a lot of them, just because it's very, very, very difficult to make

mid-range off the dribble offense efficient. And, yeah, turn around fade-away jumpers from the post. I mean, if you're Dirk Novitsky, great, you know, go for it. Or if you're, you know, Marcus Aldridge, who, you know, you're able to just face up and take the shot because he was really telling how I'd really speak into that. And great. But I don't think that any coach is going to look to that as like a significant option when you can instead pass the ball and hopefully get something much more efficient out of the play. Yeah, I would just say that I think Sadiq is probably one of – he's one of the stronger, bigger guards and players at his position.

So if he can get into the post and he's already shown a little bit of vacuum in for footwork, maybe there is something there. And I'm glad that they're taking this time to experiment with it. That's the last thing I'll say on Sadiq. But I'm happy with what they've done so far. I have nothing against the fact that they're trying it. I'm just talking about, you know, is this something that I think will work going forward in the NBA?

And that's no. I don't think it will. Anyway, let's move on to Dante's second favorite. And this is Luca Garza, aka according to the play-by-play guys last night who apparently worked for the Knicks or something for how they called the game. Luke Garza.

They were also drunk. Yeah, that was weird. That was some weird commentating. But I prefer to call him Garza. I don't know about you guys. I like Garzilla. And I'm not... Very nice. Yeah, pretty good.

That is fantastic. I had to like an actual stank face when I saw that one for the first time. Oh, yeah. That's such a good nickname. It's such a good nickname. And what I think how we're going to do this is I'm just going to kind of relay what I've seen of Garza. I'm not 100% sure that my co-host and I are going to see completely eye to eye, but I'll

just give my take. So, yeah, I think Garza is making this team. I don't really think he's going to be. be in the G League. I could see him being a guy who finds a reserve spot, a healthy scratch most nights and doesn't see the floor unless we absolutely need him for a specific matchup. But I think he's been too impressive to keep off the pistons, honestly. I think those defensive struggles that have been duly noted and that we've talked about quite a bit, they're real. He's not particularly fast. And even though I think that the weight loss has made him a little bit quicker, certainly not

quick enough to be a plus defender or really even an average defender. He's a bad one. He doesn't get to his spots on defense all that well. And sometimes he's a bit of a layup line. But one thing that I will say about the defense is that he finds himself in decent enough positions to make blocks. I think he had like four or five last night. He looked really, really good. And there are a few times where he's bothered guys on the way to the basket and sort of irritated their shot enough to where they missed. So I think what I'll say about guards' defense is that even though it hasn't been good,

I don't think it's been like abhorrent, you know? I don't think it's been disgustingly bad to the point where he'll never be an NBA player. And on offense, oh my God, he is just cooking. That's where he's Garzilla. He's Garzilla on offense. You know, he had that one fade away where he sort of kicked his leg up. And I think the NBA Instagram posted it. It was that nice.

And his three-point shot is rivaled only by Cade on this roster. Honestly, it is gorgeous. Nice high arc actually leaves the broadcast picture and then comes back down. And it's nothing but net. post moves very good hustle on the offensive glass very good tip-ins good um i know he wasn't the most efficient last night but i still thought he made a very very heavily very heavily positive impact on the game and overall he's making a name for himself i think dare i say i don't think you guys are going to disagree with me a bit of a steal that laid in the draft so i'm excited to see what he can

do i think he's making the team i think he could be a useful player if not you know ever in a regular rotation at the very least in spot minutes. I think that he will be on a two-way contract and in the G-League. And part of that is just because of whether Pistons roster situation is, but part of it is, you know, number 52 pick. You kind of, you know, no player draft at that position. I think it's going to object ending up in a two-way contract. Also, it's how he would be under contract to the organization.

It's like, well, you have this or nothing and we still own your draft rights. So go off and have fun, not playing in the NBA, but I digress. So I don't think So we'll put it this way In the NCAA he was a very skilled player You know he's a very talented offensive player Put it that way on offense yeah very talented Part of that is going to be less so in the NBA

Like even against summer league opposition You know it's just bullying them and scoring in the post It's been more difficult and that was a big part of his game in the NCAA But the real question and the real question that was like Well despite a skill on offense It led him to be drafted at number 52 and almost going drafted altogether was his defense. Because his defense at the NBA level was a gigantic concern, and apparently there

wasn't much confidence that he would actually be able to get it together. And I still don't have much confidence that he's going to be able to get together. Maybe he will. But I have to strongly disagree that he's looking okay on defense right now. He's dealing with Summer League opposition, offenses that are not deliberately targeting him, like he would in the NBA. They would in the NBA. Like, for example, like if any of you remember Bruce Brown's summer league performance in

2019, which he scored a triple double and whatever. else. How could I forget? Yeah. So the thing was, he was playing at some of the league defenses and also they weren't playing them like they would in the NBA, which is just back off and say, well, cool, good luck, you know, drive into the multiple coverage and the paint. We're going to make you a spacing liability and you're not going to be able to do anything. So with Garza and the NBA, you put him on the floor, he's going to get targeted in space by any good coach on every single possession if they can because he just cannot guard in space. You get him switched on to somebody or even force him to do that.

defend the pick and roll. He's going to get beat. If you get some of the perimeter players switched on to him or if he even has to go off and close out the perimeter, it'll stop five feet short because he did this in NCAA too. It's like, well, you know, what's going through his head probably is this guy's going to blow by me if I go up too close to him, which is true. So the guy gets an open three-point shot. As a rim protector, sure, he did a decent job last night against a not very good player, and he only did it around the basket. He was not actually protecting the rim against somebody driving in. That's the thing. It's like maybe he's talented enough to get some on offense to get you know, at the NBA level you say okay, cool. Maybe this guy can do it on offense. But

the concern is that he's going to run off the floor on defense. And I think that would happen in the NBA right now. I think he's that, but he's that much of a liability. Yeah, to further echo the point that you're making, Mike, because I do agree with you. Just to go back to the Bruce Brown Summer League thing, that's probably the last time you're ever going to see off the defense consistently go over screens when guarding Bruce Brown. That's how a player like him was able to, I think he was in like the 20s in that game. He was just gained to the rim consistently because no defense is going to respect his shot to the point where they're choosing to go over a screen and let him drive in. That was just, I don't know why they didn't make that adjustment immediately. It was just pretty obvious.

I guess they just didn't know what kind of player he was. But yeah, to echo, yeah. Garza's defense anywhere outside of the paint is just, it's just not quite there yet. And they know that and they're working on it, but his mobility outside of the paint is just not quite good enough. He's going to get pulled out and then blown by pretty consistently. It's just the fact of the matter, unfortunately. And while I think that they're certainly going to work on it, I just don't know that they're going to be able to get it quite there. But look, everybody's ranted about his work ethic and how passionate.

he is about this. So if it is possible, I'm sure that they're going to work hard enough to get there. So, yeah, I would just agree with you, Mike. It's just the defense. Everything else has been honestly surprising to me how good he is, but he still has, he has to take care of that fatal flaw before he can be an NBA player. Got a way to, you know, ways to go before, you know, before you can really put him on the floor in the NBA, I think. Last point I'll bring up on Garza there, too, is that Casey had an interview during the game last night where the commentators who, yeah, they were Knicks fans and they were drunk. I agree with you, Tommy.

They brought up the young core. And when Casey was talking about the players, they didn't specifically mention Garza, but he mentioned Garza. And I think that this organization will tell you who they're high on based on some of their quotes in these interviews. And I think the fact that Casey went out of his way to kind of highlight Garza and his strengths and his potential means that they're high on him. So whether or not his defense is to the level that I think it's. at or you guys think it's at. I think that I have every confidence that he's going to be a part of

the future of the team and I think they're going to work on it. So at the bare minimum, I believe that the organization is committed to making it work. So I guess we're going to have to find out. But Garzilla, that's too good of a nickname not to play in the NBA. Fair enough. All right. So we're just going to do these last two fairly quickly because I don't think there's a tremendous amount to say at the moment. One, Sekudunboya, I would sum him up in two phrases surprisingly good help side defender and still can't shoot yeah yeah that's how it summed yeah that about sums it up i would have also said disappointing because aside from being a help side defender who's shown a little bit more than we thought he could not impress me at all

especially i agree absolutely agree it's it has been disappointing to see yeah Tommy you got anything to add we haven't already said no i think that that that pretty much sums it up i still hope that this at this point especially that they just stick him in the G-League for a year, let him get comfortable with his body because he's still not moving very well. Totally agree. Yeah. Totally. And finally, Saban Lee.

And I would say about Saban looks much the same as he did in the NBA last season. He drives hard to the basket. He absolutely sticks out contact. And strangely enough, he's averaging about 36.5% from three on close to four times per game. That's crazy. It is crazy. Dean, I think it's, yeah, with his shot, it's like he's got such, he's got such broken form. I don't think this is, yeah, I don't think this is something that translates,

that actually translates to, it's a reliable three-point shooting. And he's made some really difficult threes, like, you know, like a really difficult threes. So I would say he really looks much the same and he's still not inclined to shoot from the perimeter. He's also actually done a pretty bad job of scoring at the basket. So another G-league guy, I would say. Yeah, that, that shot form has got to be one of the ugliest I've ever seen. And I mean, I guess it's consistently ugly.

So I don't know if it's replicable in that sense. But I just find it difficult to believe that you can replicate something like that and turn it into even somewhat of a consistent weapon. So unless he really reinvents and improves that form, I don't know if he'll ever be a reliable three-point shooter. And if he's not scoring at the basket, it's like, eh. And I'm really not liking these three-guard lineups either, though. So love the player, but not a great performance this summer league. Yeah, are you guys seeing the same thing that I see where he, like, he shoots at the way Lonzo ball shot at when he came into the league where he would have from his shoulder?

I don't see it at all. Lonzo still would, he had a very, like his shot looked a little bit like Kevin Martin's. I don't know if any of you remember Kevin Martin. He hasn't been in the league for a while. Or, you know, either of you guys or people are listening. But there's just, you play on Charlotte? I don't remember. He ended his career.

He was part of the James Harden trade. So went for the Rockets to the. the Thunder. And I think he finished his career with the Timberwolves. But because I remember he had a really good, you know, a really good game, at least from the field. And Kevin Garnett's first game back with the Timberwolves.

So, but Wanzo has this really kind of exaggerated motion in his wrist. That's really where much of it comes from. Sabin's shot reminds me of like a catapult. Like it starts right at his shoulder and then just swings forward. That's what I'm talking.

I'm not talking about Lonzo's shot. Lonzo's shot now looks a lot better. Like, he's completely changed the way he shoots. When he came into the league, like, he was launching it from his shoulder. It was hideous. That's what it reminds me of. Maybe I'm just not remembering it right. I don't think it, I think even then it was, I could be wrong.

Whatever the case. UCLA, he would, like, shoot it from his chin. And then when he came into the league, it was like, he really, when he was on the Lakers, he shot it from his shoulder. Now he shoots it out in front of him. It looks much better now. So I guess if anyone, if Alonzo can do it, maybe saving can do it. But that's every time I see.

Saban shoot. I'm like, oh, that's what it reminds me of. Well, Lonzo's issue at that point with strength, and Saban certainly has no issue with physical strength. I think it's just how he adapted to shoot. But yeah, you just, but those kind of mechanics, I don't think you can do so consistently. All right. So that'll be it for today's episode. Thanks, everybody for listening. And we'll be back probably shortly after the final game of Summer League to do a final recap. So we will catch you. next episode.