Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 62: Ghosts of Pistons past

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

This episode features the co-hosts sharing their stories of Pistons fandom and discussing their opinions of the organization's past five years.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to driving to the basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike, joined as always by Dante and Tommy. Fellas, how you're doing today? I'm sad, Mike, because I've just swiveled my chair about 10 degrees to the right. And the background picture on my Amazon Echo is Seku Dumboa. So, bummer. Oh, dear. Yeah.

I don't have an Amazon Echo, so I'm doing all right. Okay. That's good. So we've decided the best way to not be sad is. to not buy an Amazon Echo. Hopefully when Amazon sponsors us in the future, we'll just delete this episode. Anyway, so we are just going to step away real briefly now

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game. Get a free shot at a million dollar top prize with your first deposit. That's promo code THPN for a limited time only at Draft King's Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NFL. Must be 21 or older in New Jersey, Indiana or Pennsylvania only, new customers only, minimum $5 deposit and $1 wager required. One per customer, restrictions apply. See draftkings.com slash sportsbook for details. If you have a gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or in Indiana, 1-800-9 with it. Okay, so this episode is, well, for those of you familiar with Monty Python, this just comes to mind and now for something completely different. We're just going to take a bit of a change of pace and in a show that we've generally kept to a format most of the time.

We're just going to give our shot at having an honest-to-goodness conversation. So, yeah, funny as that sounds as opposed. You've raised that like an alien pretending to be a human. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, I started this podcast, I'm on April of 2019. Of course, for the first, goodness, how long was it? Maybe four months, I think, before Tommy joined me.

I was just kind of talking. So that's good, man. Yeah. It's still fun. I went back and tried to, I mean, you guys both heard it. This is an episode I didn't post. I did like a 25-minute solo episode on salary cap mechanics, which just grew so dense that I think for anybody,

it would have been like listening to a lecture and you would have had to take notes. We just all decided it was just not a good episode, so we didn't post it. It felt so weird, just recording solo. But yeah, so we, We talked about the sec we tried in the last episode. We mentioned that it has now been 100% roster turnover since Troy Weaver took over.

Bruce Brown, of course, was the first domino to fall, I believe. Yeah, a couple days before the draft. Was there any of you before that? Did he take over in June? No, I think Bruce was the first. And I remember people kind of freaking out about it. But it's like when you look, when you sort of examine that in like the grander landscape of what's gone on, It's a pretty small fish.

And I say that as a big Bruce Brown fan, but it's a pretty small fish. And then, yeah, it's like you said, a complete reshaping. And I believe at the time of the trade, it was 289 days from the 2020 NBA draft. So that's when Killian was drafted, obviously, the first pick of that class for us. And he's now the longest tenured piston, which is absolutely wild to me. So it's, yeah, we were just playing my GM in real life. He really is. And I think it's for the better.

so I'm pretty optimistic. It's been a great deal of change, certainly, in a short time. Yeah, I agree with you, Dante. And it's crazy for a team with this much roster turnover. There's so much optimism about the future, just because it feels like the team has been built with purpose, and that's a far cry from the rosters of the past. And we were thinking, or we were just talking just a little while ago

about what the teams were like the past few years as we kind of got back into things, and we kind of got back into this team, and we were all, I don't know, just the team has changed quite a bit. I don't know. When did you guys get back into the Pistons? I don't know if you were straight through all the rough years. I was not.

So I was not so much a huge Pistons fan when I was watching during the going to work era. I mean, I really liked the team. I would large we just watch them during the playoffs. I mean, I was pretty well familiar with things, not nearly a degree. And the last game I really remember watching was game six against the Celtics in 2008. I was down in Austin, and I was visiting a girl down there, and we were out of a sports bar. I mean, watching that, and I just distinctly remember more or less the series in the going-to-work era ending. when the Pistons were rallying near the end of the game.

And Tashon Prince grabbed a rebound. He held it out with that gigantic hand of his to his side as he often would. And I think it was Paul Pierce, who just grabbed it away from it and scored. And that was basically the end of the game, the end of the series. And then early the next season,

Chaunty was traded away. And I saw that and was a little fused, but I just wasn't that into the Pistons at the time. Yeah. I really, at the time, I was actually really into the Red Wings So between about 2006 and 2014, I was really a fanatic Red Wings fan. About is up on the NHL, the NBA now.

I got back, I kind of grew progressively more disgruntled with Ken Holland's management. I still think he's one of the most overrated general managers. And, you know, it's just he wouldn't take risks, wouldn't trade players, and just sign one washed up veteran in the offseason and just kind of called a day. It's a silver simplification. That's how it was. and the team just stagnated. So the Pistons, after Josh Smith was waived,

I came back to watch. It was because I was, it seemed exciting. I was like, yeah, cool. And yeah, that's where I got started again on the Pistons and became a much more kind of in-depth fan than I had been before. So, yeah, I switched from the Red Wings, whose management I really had grown to resent to a much better managed team.

Yeah. Oh, man. I only watched the Pistons when I was like, when I was a kid because of my family, like a lot of my, my grandfather especially was super into the Pistons and we were all watching like the going to work years. But then as my family just kind of stopped watching, I didn't really think about it. I just kind of stopped watching. But then I remember hearing on the news, the Chauncey had been traded. I was sad about that, but I wasn't really watching the team at that point. I remember hearing the name Rodney Stucky.

I was like, didn't know who he was. and then I didn't watch the team for a few years. And like six years later, I was flipping channels. And I saw a Pistons game on. I was like, oh, yeah, I like basketball. And I started watching again. That's wholesome. Oh, yeah, man.

Yeah. The reason that I got into basketball to start with, because I loved it all my life, was because my grandfather was really into it. He played, and I know he followed it a little when, He lived in India. I'm Indian. And even when they moved here, my grandfather got super into the Pistons.

They moved to America in the 80s, and then they moved to Michigan, I think a year later. And my grandfather was pretty quickly a Pistons fan. And even my grandmother got into it because my grandfather would watch games in their bedroom, and there would be like five minutes left. And my grandmother told me this.

What she said was she would want to go to sleep, And my grandfather would say, no, no, look at the clock. There's only five minutes left. Just give me just five minutes. But five minutes of game time is like 20 minutes or more. So my grandmother mother would say, okay, yeah, fine. You can watch this game. And that's how she started watching it.

And she ended up becoming a huge Pistons fan. She loved the bad boys. And she would talk about, like, all the players. Like when I would talk about the Pistons with her, she would talk about Isaiah Thomas, how good he was, Rick Mohorn. and she remembered all these players. And then she didn't watch the Pistons, like, recently. She was really more into it in the 80s and 90s and then the early 2000s.

But she heard George Blaha when I was watching a game just a few years ago. And she's like, I know that voice. I know his name, but I don't remember it. I was like, yeah, no, she's a legitimate super fan. She really knew her stuff. But her and my grandfather, they loved it. My grandfather got, like, tickets to the games like the sweets from his company. So they got to go and see some of these classic games and classic teams.

And their love of the Pistons kind of came to me. It's funny that I said that it was wholesome. And then you continued and it got even more wholesome. Like, so sweet. I literally have diabetes now. That was the sweetest time a long time. Oh, yeah, man. Yeah.

No, it's funny. It's funny how those kind of familial. bonds sort of make your fandom run a little deeper, you know? Oh, yeah. Almost like it means something. Like I, and I have a very similar story. My, my nono and nona, that's Italian for Graham and Grandpa, they immigrated from Italy. And my no no was, from what I'm told, he passed away when I was very young, but from what

I'm told, the biggest sports fan on earth. So he was a big time Leifes fan, big time Lions fan and big time Pistons fan. He liked the Tigers too, but it was never really a baseball family. I guess they don't care much for baseball in Milan. So that's not something that was two major. But he passed that down to my dad. And then my dad sort of passed that down to me. So it's funny because it sounds like the two of you are really like hyper focused on just basketball, whereas I've had heartbreak spread out through.

Yeah, you have a diverse set of heartbreaks. Oh, my God. Listen to this lineup. Paying all over the place. Oh, my God. Yeah. My first level is good. They sound like a barrel of laughs for all their fans.

Oh, my, yeah. But no, my, my first love was the Leafs. So that's been a really fun childhood for me. Love being a Leafs fan growing up. And then it's, but it's nice because, you know, then moving on to my interest in the NFL, I was able to taste a lot of success being a Lions fan. So that was really good, too. And then as far as the, the Pistons are concerned,

I remember just loving basketball for almost my entire life, really. and I had NBA 06 on GameCube, and that's where I learned the rules of the game. I find that it's like that with me in a lot of sports. I sort of learned through a combination of watching with my dad and like playing GameCube, playing Xbox, doing whatever. But yeah, I was very young when the going to work era was happening. So all I remember was how much I loved Chauncey Billups, but I never really had a deeper understanding of the game.

And then things sort of fell off in my interest in the Leafs and my interest in the Lions took over. And when you really love a team, it sort of feels like there's only so much love and dedication that can be spread around. But I remember in 2014-2015-ish time, it was a little slow on the sports front. And I was bored. And I started hearing about how apparently this guy named Brandon Jennings was just tearing it up for the Pistons. He was going on a little run, just lighting the league on fire. So I fired up a stream. and the Pistons were playing the Bucks.

And if you guys are familiar with Brandon Jennings' injury, you know why it's pertinent that they were playing the bucks. But Brandon went down. But for some reason, I enjoyed watching the game so much that I just stuck around. And from there, my love just grew and grew. And then obviously when you stumble onto like a community online, like the subreddit, for example, then you're surrounded by like-minded people who care just as much as you do.

And that sort of bolsters your love as well. So fast forward five, six years later. and here I am doing a podcast. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it was definitely the, that short stretch. I think it was 15 games in total, I believe.

Maybe it was the 16th game between the first game after Josh Smith was waived and when Brandon Jennings was injured. And I was watching that game. I still remember what I was doing. It had gone. I just don't remember where. I don't know if there's some Pistons community to complain about KCP's defense. I mean, KCP was a genuinely good off ball defender with the pistons.

He's great at ball denial, but not the greatest on ball defender. And who would he have been guarding at the time? I don't think it was Brandon Knight yet. Actually, never mind, it was Brandon Knight. Sorry, Brandon Knight got traded shortly afterward for Michael Carter Williams because Jason Kitt's a dummy. But, yeah, it was just a super exciting time. I mean, there was that buzzer-beater, well, near-buzzer-beater against the Spurs. There was, I think it was the game after that.

They played against the Mavericks. It was still a good team, and they had their first back-to-back-back-on-the-road wins against the Spurs and the Mavericks since, goodness knows how long. The game against the Hawks, which, who were really on fire at the time, and they almost won that one. It was very close. Came down on the last basket. there were just a lot of good games throughout that.

There was this really banger of a game against, yeah, Dante has me saying banger now. But against the Raptors, when Brandon Jennings on the last place stripped Kyle Lowry at half court on the final play. And it was just a good time. The team really seemed like these guys all really liked each other. They were having fun playing.

Yep. And everything was going right. Could it have been sustained? I don't think so but it was just a ton of fun and then of course Jennings went down and that was just a heartbreaking moment there's also a franchise altering moment

when you think about it because you keep Jennings you know of Jackson I don't think Jennings could have been a long-term good point guard for the Pistons or any team it's great that he's remembered for that amongst Pistons fans but the guy had basically

peaked in the first month of his rookie year and then in like 2013 or not 2013 he's in 2009 and then he was bad for about five years and then he was good for about a month and a half and then he was bad after that. So you don't think he turned a corner? No, and I know that the Achilles Indus

that really killed him, but I mean, he was just shooting far above his career baseline. I mean, the guy was shooting, it consists in 40%. But even amongst, even across those games, those again, I think 15 games, he had some really good games and some really bad games. And I do always admire and appreciate Brandon Jennings from how he really grew overnight from this kind of immature chucker

into a leader because he really did lead that team for that short time. But no, I don't think this Pistons had really kind of, I don't think the Pistons had really just suddenly found this team that was vastly more than some of its parts. I think that a lot came together to go right at one time and it was a lot of fun and there was a lot of hype and it really brought Detroit basketball back, so to speak, after all those dark years, which are really dark years, of course, dark years would come after that too. So it's a great memory. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, whether or not it would have been sustainable and you put up a compelling argument for why it wouldn't be, and I tend to agree with you.

But, you know, if Jennings doesn't get hurt, you don't make the Reggie Jackson move. And then obviously the dominoes sort of fall from there. So it really was franchise defining. And then it leads us into the, I don't know, is the Dark Ages two, Dark Ages, the Sim. I don't know what I would call it, but oh, the super mediocre years. Yeah, the super mediocre. That's when I joined. It was Stanley's rookie year. And I remember Reggie Jackson was here.

And that was in full swing. Yeah. Yeah, the, uh, the, the working toward mediocrity pistons. Yep. And it's so funny. It's so funny because I'm literally so, I know we joke about how I have Corey Joseph jerseys. I don't have Corey Joseph jerseys. The jerseys that I own, I'm looking at the mersey.

right now. So I've got a Killian Hayes jersey. Anybody who's on the subreddit, I actually, I made a comment. It was pretty funny. Something like if, what was it if Killian scores in double digits tonight, I'll buy a jersey. And then he scored like 11 points. Then right after the game, I posted a picture of the jersey I already owned. So I do have a Killian jersey. But then next to those are a Blake Griffin and an Andre Drummond jersey. You bought the Griffin jersey on the first night, didn't you? Yeah, that was, yeah. So that's nice to you remember, Mike. No, you're a child. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was back in your younger years. Yep, back in my wee age of 21 when I was, when I was nothing but an immature child. And I remember after the trade happened, I was so excited. I was so excited not because I thought we'd win a championship, but just because we had a cool player, I guess, star in parentheses. Or, yeah, in quotation marks. So I totally emphasized. Tommy and I was thrilled.

Yeah, you guys, I know we're tired up. But I went to the first game and it was fun. Oh, yeah, I did the sports, the mental sports analysis equivalent of, I don't know, like your engine dropping or your house burning down or whatever. It was just the worst. Yeah, it was the worst. That's why I bought a jersey. No, I mean, I admire you for just enjoying it for what it was. I looked at it and I was like, this is such a disaster.

and it is the exact opposite of what the person should have done in this situation. Oh, for sure. I remember exactly where I was when that happened. I was in a physics class. Yeah, earlier on the day, I was driving back. I was driving back from New York City. I was living in Massachusetts at the time. And I got a notification on my phone and, you know, I was on some wide open stretch of highway.

And so I looked at my phone, whatever. And then I promptly started texting and, no, I'm just joking. Don't text. Don't text. Don't text. Don't text. So, and it said something along the lines of it. It was probably from shams or from, or from, from woe.

I think it was woes that broke that one. No, no, no, no. This is earlier in the day. This is the day before. This is the day before, actually. Or it said the Pistons have made Avery Bradley available in trade discussion. And I was like, awesome. You know, this team is doing what it should.

This is the only reasonable thing to do at this point. A sell. and just tell Reggie Jackson, stay out the rest of the season, play the young guys as much as you can, and get a good draft pick and come back and do what you can with it the next year, even if you're not going to sell Tobias Harris, whatever, that wasn't really a realistic possibility. I knew that. But the rest was perfectly viable, and I think that's what any sane team would have done in that situation. Instead of the business did the exact opposite.

I found that out the next day while I was at work, and this notification came up. and I was like, you have got to be kidding me. Part of it and I have was just like, this is the culmination of, this is just the ultimate culmination of Stan Van Gundy. It's like this is, I think I blamed Goraes more for the trade at the time than Van Gundy, for whatever reason. I still think Van Gundy knew it was a, knew that it was incredibly unlikely to succeed,

but that he got on board. It was all about it because it was one of the only shots of saving his job. but man that was bad i was just so dark yeah i was so upset i've never been more upset about sports than it wasn't that day that was that was peak van gundy right there and i know you say you blame gors more but then again and this is why when we talk about these managerial structures it doesn't make any sense to put somebody's job on the line for a season it doesn't make any sense for gores for example to tell stan hey you you know you got one year to fix this or you're gone because stan's the one making these executive decisions that don't just apply to this year, they apply to the future.

And so why you would empower someone who's got their back against the wall to make long-term decisions for a team, I've got no clue. But that's a part of the Tom Gore's experience, I guess. Yeah, it was just get another cautionary tale as to why you don't give both coaching and managerial powers the same person. Van Gundy was one of the last. There was also Doc Rivers, who shortly thereafter, no, Doc Rivers had already given up his manager. real powers. Buden Holzer, I think, maybe it was his last year or he'd already moved on to the bucks or something. I don't know. Tibodeau was the only one, I believe, to outlast Van Gundy in that role. And just the fact is that when you know that you're the coach and you're going to get fired if you

don't do this and you're also the general manager, you're going to do some really stupid things. Yeah. Yeah. You know, for the sake of maybe allowing yourself to win. Like, Tibido basically was like begging Jimmy Butler to stay because he knew that Butler, if he didn't stay, then because they didn't have much leverage in that trade, especially because Butler was in his final year before. I'm restricted free agency. He clearly wanted out ASAP. And so, like, he knew that if traded Butler, he was going to miss the playoffs, and he was

going to get fired. And if you're not the general manager, also, you can't make that kind of panic move. I mean, whatever, it's either to make a panic move. like you're just the coach. Yeah. But in order to get Van Gundy to pick the Golden State Warriors over the Pistons, Tom Gores gave him personnel control for dumb reasons. Wow.

Successful in businesses, Tom Gores has been until Troy Weaver, he really didn't do a good job of picking guys to run and coach his team. Nope, no. And I forget about that Golden State thing pretty often. So it's like not only is the entire legacy of the past, I don't know, 10, 15 years of the Pistons been defined by this era of mediocrity. Imagine if Stan went over and coach to the coach slash GM to the Warriors, that would be, that would be something.

That's changing the ODA landscape or just, even just the coach. You know, he's not Steve Kerr. Oh, Steve Kerr is a great coach. Yeah, he is. Yeah, he gets sold short just because of all the talent he's had to work with, but he's just a great coach. I mean, Steve Kerr is highly innovative on the offensive end. I mean, makes the best out of the talent he has.

and this pretty good defensive coach too. And I'm just like on the one hand, it's like, well, I would have preferred, this would have saved us the annoyance of the Durant Warriors era. But Steph Curry would not have had the desserts that, whatever I was supposed to say the desserts that he deserved. They're a little repetitive. He would not have, I'm happy that Curry got to win. I mean, Curry is such a great, he's such a talented player.

Yep. And he's such a great guy too. Yeah. Yeah. standing with the Warriors. It's like, okay, guys, here's what we're going to do. Steph Curry is going to run 40 pig and rolls a game with Andrew Bogot, and the rest you're going to stand there.

Yep. Also, we're not going to defend three-point line. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't forget about that. Yeah. Yeah, no. Well, they innovated.

They were the ones that came up with the one of probably the most effective lineups in terms of small ball. Remember the death lineup with, I think Draymond at the five. They put Igwadal in. Yeah, absolutely. I don't think Stan's coming up with that. No, absolutely not. It was, so it was really in a 2015 playoffs when Steve Kerr did a couple of things that really changed the NBA. I mean, not on their own, but there was, and those of you've been listening to this show for a long time, like a long time.

We'll remember Tommy and I talking about this probably two years ago, but I still think it's really interesting. So one thing that he did was when they were playing against Memphis with the grit and grind grizzlies who were really in their last legs, but still a good defensive team. I still had Tony Allen, who was first team all defense, but couldn't shoot. So I think that the series got tied at two, and, excuse me, Tony Allen was doing a Tommy Allen, sure,

Tony Allen, doing a great job on Curry. So Currie decided, okay, here's a we're going to do. On offense, we're going to take Bogot. We're going to sign him to him to Tony Allen, and we're just going to back him off into the paint and say, well, good luck to you. You can try to drive into Bogot and still good rim protector and whoever it just comes off to help. I mean, basically just drive a new pack paint. So that's going to make you play four on five on offense. So you've got to make a choice. You can either continue to do that. Keep Tony Allen on Curry. Tony legitimately would yell

first team all defense at times after he made a good defensive play on Steph Curry. I do that too when I play back. Completely understandable. So basically it was so you can either keep him in and play four on five on offense or you can take him out, have a functioning offense, but Curry's going to light you up. And there was no good choice to be made. And the Warriors won the next two games.

And then the second one, of course, was in the finals when they went small ball and put Draymond's at the five. And Draymond back them is kind of like a reasonably good three-point shooter. His best year was in, it was actually the next year, the 72 wins season. 72 or 73. 73. 73 win season. But yeah, that small ball lineup, I mean, that was really a new thing too.

It was just really stressing, spacing, and shooting and sacrificing size. And that really helped lead into the spacing era. before up to even including that season like it was okay to be power forward it couldn't shoot and like three years later you all those guys powerfors who couldn't shoot were either centers had learned to shoot or we're out of the week so naturally we signed we traded for Blake Griffin

and pair him with Andre Drummond yeah I mean Griffin could shoot but yeah it was like what was the quote was someone other people zig sometimes you get a zag sometimes yeah oh that was just the worst I can't believe that's a real thing Yeah, he gave the most dissembling interview of all time, like where he talked about, oh, we just had to do, it just had to be done.

We've done it even if we're not a 10-game win-strike. It's like, okay, Stan, 10-game win-strike. You were the third best team in the league. Yeah. And, oh, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays did this differently. It's like, dude, no, they're the baseball team. And it's like, oh, well, everybody else is shooting three, so we're just going to try to bang in the paint.

Yep. Yeah, it's like, no, you're just trying to justify a trade that didn't actually make any sense. I remember when that trade happened, you immediately hated it. My initial reaction, I was just like, I knew what his contract value was. My reaction was what he's making $173 million. You had like this long, like drawn, not drawn out, but like you went like piece by piece. He's like, no, this is not going to work because spacing is terrible. And props to you, man, you called it.

Yeah, you called. And it fell apart. And we are where we are now because of it. And I remember talking about that on the podcast. You mentioned episodes from two years ago, which it's crazy to think about that we've been doing it that long. But yeah, I remember one of the, I can't believe for how, like how badly we wanted this team to tank that we came on and recorded this because so often I would go back to the idea. It was like, yeah, we just need a tank. And I said that pretty much all the time because it was just like, yeah, if this team, if everything comes together.

Yeah. You wanted a three or four year tank, didn't you? Yeah. Oh, yeah. You want the long game, right? Yeah, and that was the idea. I remember my story or my idea was you tank really, really hard for the first year. And then hopefully that's when you draft your best player.

And then you're going to get a little better because of that guy. And you keep tanking. It was basically the process. And then you want to start signing your free agents. And then this is before I knew what cap holds were. and you were actually the one who's been explaining all that stuff to me. I was like, yeah, before your rookie extensions hit, that's when you sign all your free agents,

and then you have like basically double the talent on your roster. Yeah, but it's been good. This whole experience has really helped me learn basketball. And the more that I've learned about it, the more I realize I don't know. And it's fun to learn about these things because I remember, this is honestly a random story, but you mentioned how the subreddit kind of like,

change the way that you were a fan. Certainly the case for me too. I remember we were having a bad game against somebody, and in a game thread, I posted... Wait, the Pistons were having a bad game against somebody? I never have to. I mean, yeah, on a lot of...

It doesn't exactly narrow it down. I understand. Yeah, exactly. I can understand why there's really nothing to distinguish it. Well, here, this might help you place the timeline a little bit. I posted, and this is when he was good, I posted, do you think the Pistons could trade Reggie Jackson and Stanley Johnson for John Wall? And I got roasted for it.

That is like the most 2016 sentence I've ever heard in my life. You know, you're probably right. It was probably 2016 or 20s. It probably was because that one was when I thought these guys were good because I didn't know better. Well, yeah, yeah. And people talk, like everybody wants to believe that everybody. on their team is good and that they're more valuable than they really are. But like that's when, like, I knew I, I think I deleted it pretty quickly because it was like,

yeah, no, that. Yeah, you just got to. I didn't know what I was talking about there. And, uh, and, you know, ever since then, it's like, you want to learn more. No, for sure. The subreddit's definitely helped with that. It's a good, I don't even want to say resource. It's just a good place to learn.

No, it's nice. And it's funny that you brought up how everybody wants to believe their players are good, because this is something that I've been. sort of kind of pondering on, I guess, for the last little while. Like actually really, not even the last little while, like literally since way back, since we won the draft lottery, it's like what's so funny, at least to me, is now that we have a legitimate, you know, a player like Cade Cunningham who can come in and potentially be, like, it's not crazy to be like, yeah, I think he's going to be a

Hall of Famer. Like, that's not an absolutely wild thing to say. But it's like, when you look back at the Blake, Griffin era, the Andre Drummond era, it's like we convinced ourselves that these players were actually good and they could take us somewhere and I think fans are guilty of this and across all sports, across all leagues, across all teams. And it takes really having someone with elite potential to understand the mental gymnastics that you had to do prior to convince yourself that these players were going to be something special. Yeah. On the other hand, though, I was going back and I was thinking

about this fairly recently. I did not enjoy that one good season from Blake Griffin at all because I couldn't get past the fact that, yeah, because I couldn't, like I was, I went back and I watched the highlights and I was shocked at how good he was. I didn't, I did not remember thinking that when it was happening. So I don't know, I guess being too focused on what I want the future to be, I think it cost me some, some enjoyable games and so it was fun. I didn't enjoy it. He was good. He was really good and it was really good. And I didn't. I didn't. It was impossible for me to appreciate it because the whole time it was just I wanted to tear it down. The roster was an abomination.

Like, an absolute, like Blake did a great season. He was a great leader. He really waited all in the line. And, you know, yeah, Blake said recently, you know, took a shot at the Pistons fans. Like, oh, I would hate me too for such and such. And, you know, you can say what you will. And whatever, that's an entirely different topic. Like, I don't care.

You know, with Blake, you know, I wish you well. Whatever. I think it's the best for all involved that he's no longer with the pistons. So for himself and the pistons, though, you know, sad as it is to say, he's a shadow of the player he was back during his last all-N-Ba season. But yeah, he had a great season. You know, he was everything he could have asked for. And the team around him was such an abomination that there was no hope from day one

that that team would accomplish anything in the playoffs. And that all-MBA season basically got the Pistons to, a 500 season in a weak Eastern Conference and the worst playoff series I've ever watched any sport. It was like, I think statistically it was the worst playoff.

Yeah, I'm not doing it at a game. It was terrible. Yeah. It was just awful. And throughout the season, there are times and it's like, yeah, I want the pistons to lose because this is like peak awful. This is like peak absolutely pointless,

trying to compete for nothing with this horrible roster that has no play. at all in the modern NBA. I mean, okay, let's we'll get it. This was a roster that had nowhere near enough shooting, had nowhere near enough offensive creation, had like no

legitimately good defenders. It's like it had one good interior score and one guy who created offense off the dribble. Those are both Blake Griffin. It was based around still, I mean, there's still primarily interior focused Griffin was, so based around him and Andre Drummond, who was also in

the interior. And we knew that was a bad combo from the start. I think people called it, excuse the language, a lot of shitty. You go from, you go from, you go from DeAndre Jordan, Blake Griffin, and Chris Paul to Andre Drummond, Blake Griffin, and Reggie Jackson. Yeah. And disparaged DeAndre DePissons legend DeAndre Jordan all you want. Like for a while, he's got tenure here. You better take it easy. Yeah, for a while he was a very good player. I mean, and at his peak, he was better than Drummond ever has been.

Yeah. So, yeah, it was, I was just looking at the team, though, I'm like, there is no capacity for this team to do anything. It simply does not have the parts. This is horrendously pointless. I would like to see them just lose so something changes. I mean, I don't like, you know, it was, it was just awful. It was just awful. Yeah.

You want to hear something funny? Go ahead, down there. I'll tell mine after. No, but I want to hear something funny. Oh, well, one of the, we love Matt Shook on the show. And one of the reasons that I love him is because when he was doing locked on, he was doing it all throughout that era of Pistons basketball. And it's, I don't know how he did it, but he grinded.

Yeah, every day. And he still had the honesty and integrity to say, yeah, this team is going nowhere. And no, like, no shots anybody who, like, yeah, who creates content about the Pistons. But, like, they have to ignore that reality or they had to at that point. because if you admit that the Pistons aren't going anywhere, well, what are you writing about then? But Matt Shook said it. And, like, I remember I would listen to him talk about the Pistons on my commute, either on my way or on my way back from school. And I remember I would pause or mute his recordings or his podcast.

And then I would yell emphatically just how, like agreeing with him was like, yes, thank you. Thank you. Because nobody was saying it. I take it. And it was the most frustrating thing. Yeah, that was actually how I practiced. Wow, that was, this was back when Tommy was driving a bus for a local old folks home. Yeah, you stopped the bus to know the road and screamed.

Start screaming, yeah. I was going to say, yeah, I take it no passengers in the car then at that point. No, no, that was my commute. That was definitely no passengers in the car because, Mike, you asked me, honestly, this ties into that. You asked me before you started this. when you were first starting the show. I joined something on episode seven. You asked me initially if I wanted to join you.

I said no because it was too nervous. And I ended up doing it because literally, like when I would listen to podcast and I would agree with something, I would pause the recording and then I would answer. And that's how I practiced podcasts before I joined this show. And so thank you, Matt Shook. You are half the reason that I do this. Yeah. Matt is such a cool guy.

And it's funny you told that story, Tommy. because the first time we had him on, I was like so nervous. I was so nervous because it was like, and it ends up being the most down-to-roof guy. Yeah. Like, I was like, I'm about to meet one of my heroes here.

And then he comes on and he's just like the coolest guy ever. And Tommy, you told him. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And Tommy, you told him with the story that you just relayed.

And then I told him as well that, yeah, it must have taken some serious bravery to get on the microphone every single day and tell it like it is. And telling it like it is. entailed, you know, having to unfortunately tell the listeners, results be damned, right? That this team's not going anywhere. It wasn't going anywhere yesterday.

It's not going anywhere today. And it's not going to be going anywhere tomorrow unless something changes. And it was so apparent to everyone except for the people who mattered, except for the people who are making the decisions, you know? And that's just so exhausting as a fan, right? And that's the kind of thing. And then he has to go on the next day and talk about something else. Exactly.

And it must have been so frustrating, so exhausting. So I give him props for, for. for having the guts to be honest. I know that that's what we try to do on this show as well. Like sometimes we can maybe come across harsh on players, but that's because we've seen some really bad basketball. You know, and people are very critical of the Detroit media in general.

I'm not saying we're a part of the Detroit media, but take the Lions, for example. You know, Jim Caldwell, former Lions coach, he referred to the media room or the press conferences that he had to do as the Dungeon of Doom because everybody was so negative all the time. And it's like, well, well, yeah, they're negative because the team sucks. And the team has no good future outlook whatsoever.

Oh, man. Imagine having to cover the lions as your job for years and years on end. I mean, imagine the kind of rage that just would develop inside of you from having that job. It's tough. It's tough. And that's why I'm able to weather even the worst of storms with the pistons because the things I've seen. You got the maple leaves too. I've got the maple.

Oh, don't even get me stuff. started. I don't know if I've said this on the show. I've told the guys, so we actually have season tickets to the Lions. I'm in Windsor, Ontario, so I'm literally 10 minutes away from Detroit. I go to school in Detroit as well, at least pre-pandemic anyway. I was over there every single day. It's like pretty much my second home. And I used to come back, not used to, I come back consistently from these Lions games with like the thousand yards there. Like it is horrendous. The things that I've seen, no child should have seen growing. up with things that I've experienced.

Like, I feel like a seasoned vet. So there's not much the pistons could throw at me, whether it's mismanagement or blowing a game or having a crappy season or making a Blake Griffin trade. That's going to phase me too much because between the Leafs and the Lions, I've seen it all. Like, I've seen every form of mismanagement and getting screwed by the refs and poor play and poor roster construction that you could even conceive. So I, wow, my heart rate's up.

You had a Batman reference last time, right? Yeah, oh, yeah. What's the Bain quote? It's like you were, you merely adopted. You merely adopted the pain. Yeah, you adopted. I was bold by it. I distinctly remember being, and dedicated Detroit sports fans will know this one.

I remember being eight or nine years old. And Calvin Johnson, my hero, I'm looking at a signed Calvin Johnson football right now. It's on my desk. It's like my prize possession. So Calvin Johnson was my hero growing up. And I remember against, I believe it was the Chicago Bears. And he caught a touchdown pass to win the game as, time expired. And then he got up and did a celebration and he slammed the ball down or he kind of

like dropped it to his hip as part of the celebration. And the NFL like the officiating crew ruled it no catch because he didn't quote unquote maintain possession. And that led to like a rule change, which is now referred to as the Calvin Johnson rule. So when you literally have rules being changed named after your players or named after the times that your team got screwed over, that's how you know your fan base has seen it. You know, they've been through some stuff. Yeah. Yeah, that's my part. But yeah, it's good. So let's, I've got a question as sort of a change of pace.

So if we're talking prior to this last season, which of course has just been entirely different than anything else we've experienced over the last decade as Pistons fans, and I know that we're constricted a bit because we weren't, you know, fortunately for our nerves and, you know, cardiovascular systems and so forth, watching during like the first half of it, more than the first half of it, like, you know, 2009 through 2013. That was just an awful, awful period by all indications. And, you know, respect any Pistons fan who sat through that.

Yeah, seriously. Yeah, so if we're talking like, you know, at the start of the 2015, 2016 season onward, because we had all gotten to the Bistence by then and prior to this last season, what would you guys say your favorite moments, favorite stretches from those, you know, not so illustrious seasons were? Because I feel like there were some good times. Oh, there were certainly good times. The one that sticks out to me, if I don't pinpoint it to a singular moment, I really did enjoy Blake's season. I know we've made so many jokes about me having the jersey, but I went to the first game. I was so excited. I instantly bought tickets to the first game. I went with a bunch of my buddies, and it was against

the Mavericks. And I remember not being excited. The first Blake game was a against the Gleek Grizzlies. The Glea Grizzlies, similar color scheme. That's why I mixed it up. So it was the Glea Grizzlies. I remember going. And I wasn't. They were just,

Gleek, because they were just injury butchered at the time. Yeah, no, they were not a good team and they didn't put out a good product. They were a bad team even before the injuries. Yeah,

and they were completely decimated. I do remember that. So I go to the game, not necessarily excited for the long-term outlook of the team, but more excited like, oh my God, it's Blake Griffith. Like, I've seen him in commercials and stuff.

And now he's a pissed and he's dating Kendall Jenner. this is cool. And we go to the game and it was just, I mean, I think electric is the right word. Like there was like a tangible excitement in the building that I hadn't felt in a really long time. And I understand that it's on the grand scale. It didn't mean anything. But it was really, really cool to watch him just play his heart out every single night. And I've referenced this on the show a few times when I went to, it was game four. It was game four against Milwaukee in the worst playoff series of all time. And when Blake checked him, himself off or checked himself out. Everybody stood up, started chanting MVP. That gives me

goosebumps still when I watch clips of it on YouTube because I couldn't think of a better amalgamation of all these different feelings that dedicated fans must have felt watching that season and that it's like you said, Mike, the team around him was just an abomination, but he still did everything he could because he was a professional. You know, he was nothing but class and he was so talented and his talent just really shone through that season. So that to me, and then I guess the 50 points against Philadelphia, too, Blake's responsible for like three of my favorite Pistons moments. So I don't regret the jersey at all.

I really don't because it reminds me of like, you know, where we came from, where my fandom, I guess, really started to take off. And hopefully I can look at that jersey for like the foreseeable future and even into the distant future and sort of look at it and be like, wow, this organization has come a long way. Yeah, that's a good one. Once we made the Blake trade, I got really cynical, and I had trouble truly enjoying the Pistons.

So mine are pre-Blake trade, but I have two that I think of. One of them, it was the Pistons were playing Portland. And I remember this one clearly because the game, it had either gone to overtime, and it was like really close at the end, or it was like the fourth quarter. And it was an in-bounds play, and there was like 10 seconds left. And they get it to KCP. You know which play I'm talking about? Yeah, this I believe, this was in the 2016-2017 season.

And it was like maybe somewhere between November and February. I think actually, excuse me, this is between, this is probably in January or February of 2017. One of Reddy Jackson's really rare good games in that season. And, yeah, West Coast World Trip. And then I remember it was super late. It was like 1 a.m. when that game finally finished up, I was in my bed, blanket over my head so the light wouldn't show. And I wouldn't wake up anybody. And it was honestly, looking back, it was probably like a really terrible shot to take, especially since there was like 10 seconds left on the clock. But they inbound it to KCP and he promptly takes a turn around three point shot and he knocks it down. And I remember, like, I did that thing where like, I didn't want to make any noise and wake anybody up. So like, I was like hyping myself up. looking at my phone, but I was like perfectly silent.

Like it was going crazy, but I was just moving, but it was like perfectly silent. And that was a really cool moment. And then the other one, it was Tobias Harris, who was probably one of my, probably my favorite piston through that era during the Warrior 73 and nine season. The Pistons are one of those nine losses. It was close game. This was actually two seasons. So the Warriors 73 win season was 2015-20s.

So that was Tobias' first season there. You're thinking of 2017, 2018. So it was two years later. It was when Durant was there. Yeah, Durant joined after the 73 win season. So this was Durant's second season of Warriors. You're right. But it was definitely the Durant.

It was the Durant Warriors, though. I remember that because it was a Rainbow 3 over Durant, and this was peak Kevin Durant hate. Wow. So I'm mad at myself from mixing that up. But yes, I remember Tobias hit a game winner, over Kevin Durant and that was amazing to me.

So that solidified my love of Tobias Harris, but those are the good moments. They had a terrible game, but that was a big moment. Yeah, that stretch, and this is often forgotten, I found, was that stretch to start the 2017-2018 season. I mean, that's, I think, often thought of as just the season

over the Pistons went out and traded for Blake, but really, that was the best start to a season. the Pistons have had since the going to work era that was and remains actually that remains the best opening night starting lineup the Pistons afielded since the going to work era was was at the start of the 2017-2018 season so you had a lineup of reggie jackson abry bradley uh stanley johnson tobias harris and and drummond of course and your bench was like ish smith galloway canard anthony tolliver was back uh... peasants didn't have a backup center because bold on. But

Pistons came out and won 14 of the first 20 games and they did so against good teams. I mean, the next season they would come out with the Blake Griffin Pistons would come out and go 13 and 7 with a comically easy schedule. And this is not me saying, I told you so.

This is just how I saw it at the time. It's like the Pistons are playing games against exhausted bad or injury ravaged teams. That's why they're winning. The schedule is going to get difficult and they're going to start losing a lot. And that's what happened because that was a paper tiger team. It was not ha-ha. I was right.

It was just like the opposition got to be actually difficult. That team wasn't good. They were 13 and 7 in their first 20. This team was 14 and 6 against good teams. They went on this Western Road trip. They beat the Clippers, who were 6 and 0 at the time. On the next night, they beat the Warriors. And then they played the Lakers, and Stan Van Gundy decided to let his bone-tired veterans.

He didn't like them or something. He was just going to run them into the ground. And that was just a great time. And that Warriors game was a lot of fun to watch. I mean, this was like really a team playing as a team. It was fairly well balanced. Avery Bradley grew to be terrible for the Pistons, but he was very good in his first month or so.

Stanley Johnson was actually playing good basketball. They had a new offense formulated by the assistance and brought on, it said by Jeff Van Gundy, who apparently just watched Pistons tape and said, this isn't working. Why are you trying to, why are you having Andre Drummond shoot out of the post? This is a horrible idea.

Whatever the case. They were just playing good basketball. And in my opinion, that's the best basketball of the Pistons have played over the last 13 years since the end of the going to work era. But that Warriors game was just fun. The Pistons were up against an extremely talented team and they just grinded it out. This win against the Celtics later on. I don't know if you guys remember that one. It was right before the season really took a downturn.

It's ringing a bell. Yeah, so, you know, credit to Drummond, he had a great game. Tobias had a great game. The Celtics and the Warriors were really like the two best teams in the league at the time. So the Pistons finished that stretch 14 and 6, and after that it was all downhill because Bradley went downhill and Stan Bangunty was the only person in the world who thought that Bradley was fit to be like a primary option of any kinds. Oh, God.

When you said that, it came back, the long twos. I remember going insane. Oh, man. Oh, my God. Yeah, I mean, you know how Stan Bollinger. Van Gundy was. He just, he called all of his plays from this like super short playbook. He had, he was just completely out of his element. But also like he didn't do anything to keep the offense fresh. So other teams just adapted and it stopped working. And, uh, but really killed

that season was Reggie Jackson, uh, basically tearing up his ankle. I think it was like at the 27th, I believe of, uh, of December of that year. Yeah, it was against the pace. Yeah. It was against, uh, was it against the patient. That was the ankle sprain. Yep, it was the pace. Yeah, that's right. I was thinking the magic. They played the magic in the next game, I think. But if he hadn't been injured, I doubt you see Griffin on this team because that team is still capable of making the playoffs. Like, I think if you'd feel that roster under a competent coach, that that could have been like a second round playoff team, maybe. Yeah, there was legitimate excitement around that team. Yeah, but I mean, it's like. That was a fun time. Yeah, it was. I feel like it's not as well

remember just because the team had no star power. But it was like, it was the kind of, it's sort of, team he could root for. Yeah, it was, it was a team to read for it. It was a team, you know, these were guys who were playing as a team. Reggie Jackson had really matured from his horrendous season, the season before. And so it was a team playing as a team. But, yeah, so that was my favorite time. And there were, like the season before that, I mean, if we want to talk our least favorite

time. So least favorite time was not for me, the Blake season. It was 2016, 2017, when it became very apparent to me that Stan Van Gundy was not just a mediocre coach, but actually horrifically bad. Yeah. For me, it was still the Blake, because I got so hung up on, on, like, I couldn't get past, like, the idea that in my head this was a waste of time. It was just kicking the can down the road because it felt like it wasn't going anywhere.

So when they finally decided to rebuild and tank it out, I was just relieved. I was so happy when we were losing all these games. Yeah. That moment where they flip the card and it's the Rockets picking number two. Oh, my God. That was just a moment of pure euphoria and it felt like everything that we had gone through was worth it. Oh, oh, certainly. Because I wouldn't change a thing about these past.

It was such a good moment. I wouldn't change a thing about these past. I don't say if I wouldn't change a thing. Oh, I don't know. I like where we ended up. I just, I mean, I'm excited for the way things are going. I'm not saying that. I'm not denying that.

I just, I feel like it could have happened a long time ago if this team had been under competent ownership and competent management. Sure. But I mean, but if you look at it, we haven't just seen one overhaul of the team. I mean,

if you look back to like 2014, so that team was fully overhauled. So that team, Drummond was the last player around from that team in 2019. I think he was the only player even left from that team. team in aside from Anthony Tolliver who had come and gone even in the season

um wait no Jackson joined the team then so yeah the pistons really went full circle from from like Van Gundy really almost entirely rebuilt the roster I mean I think Drummond was the only person left from when he'd gotten in by the time uh by the time he was fired even before that

uh because KCP was the second to last one so from yeah from the start of 2014 until the beginning of 2017, 2018 season, almost complete overhaul. And yeah, just things have changed rapidly, largely, because the team has been incredibly unsuccessful. It was not built. Yeah, that's what, that's what we wanted when they, when they made that trade. I don't know if, I don't know if I ever said it on the, on the podcast, but I know Mike, you and me, we had like these actual conversations where I was like, yeah, I hope, I hope this team fails so that, I hope they fail so spectacularly that they're forced to rebuild. And they did. And they did. You know,

Yeah. Here's a question. I'm sorry to interrupt. Here's a question. What do you think it was that finally changed Tom Gores' mind such that he said, okay, well, what he said was, you know, we don't want to be fighting for the BAT seat every year, for example, but such that he was finally willing to say, okay, we're going to take short-term pain for long-term gain. What do you think finally changed his mind after nine years? I think what sort of got the wheels spinning, in his brain is actually my answer for least favorite moment of this past dark age and that it's funny how I cited the Blake MVP chance is one of my favorites. But the series that that came in, what an embarrassment. Like honestly. And I remember thinking, yeah, yeah, it's like I remember

thinking all my dedication this season, all the comments I left in the subreddit, all the posts I made, all the times I spent refreshing Twitter trying to look at the trade deadline, trying to see who we're going to sign in for agency, who are we going to draft, what are we going to do. we're going to do and it culminated in that like I paid money to see that like the biggest oh my god the biggest beat down it not you know metaphorically speaking statistically speaking like literally yeah biggest beat down in the history of the NBA playoffs I've never and and and and I think something like that is a slap in the face yeah I think yeah but it's just a slap in the face it's just a bucket of cold water it has to be for Tom gores because it's like this is the culmination

of what you did you scraped and clod to get into the same to the playoffs and you were rewarded with national humiliation on the biggest stage. So to me, if that didn't start turning the wheels in his head, I don't know what did. And I'm pretty sure the subsequent season was when they sort of were like, okay, maybe now it's time to make some changes. And then you start dismantling and you start shipping some parts off. And of course, that that culminates into getting the first overall pick, landing Katie Cunningham. But it all started, you know, with that absolute embarrassment of a playoff series, really put

the cherry on top of the worst era. you know, I've seen. So I would say it was that. Yeah, I was in the game threads when that had, they were super active, probably still to date the most active game threads. Oh, yeah. The summer league threads with Cade are actually pretty close in terms of total common count. But when that was happening, oh, my God, so many different people from all, like, other

fan bases were coming in just to, like, make fun of us because we were getting consistently thrashed. Like, we got spiked out of the playoffs harder than literally anybody. It was terrible. That was a rough moment. Horrendous. It was horrendous. So, Tommy, you think that's what, you think that's what ultimately. Yeah, no, that's when I thought of it.

There might be like another time because I know they didn't, I don't know if they started to tear it down immediately after that point. No, they did not. No, they were going to run it back. Yeah. And, but I think they could just see it wasn't going. I don't know if, was there like a injury with Blake that. So Blake got, was that it? He had surgery.

He came back in. And he didn't look like himself. December of the next year and was terrible. And he was awful. He looked even worse than he needed last season. And he, and then he bowed out and to have surgery again.

And that's, that's the point of which, right around then, that you started hearing that the business were trying to trade Drummond. It was shortly after that, I believe. Yeah. So, yeah, what I think, so I have a couple of thoughts. Number one, you know, Ed Stefanski gets,

basically his thing with the Pistons, I think that, well, maybe not. I'm not sure how many people know this story, but probably a lot of fans do that, that Stefanski was brought on as a consultant to help the Pistons hire a new coach. This is an all-time group. This is an all-time. Yeah. And then he got himself as GM, more or less. The spot was on Phil.

There was no GM, but he was, you know, he was basically de facto general manager. That guy's the goat. Yeah. So that was funny. And Stefansky will say it does not, I mean, he has a very undistinguished management career. He's been around for a while, but he generally hasn't really done a very good job. But, and I'm saying this based just, I don't have any hard evidence of this. It's just based on what I saw the Pistons do and what was said that I think he was part of what got through to Gores.

Since before that, Gores had really been dealing with kind of amateur general managers. You look at Dumars, yeah, he built the 2000. and for championship team, absolutely to go into work Pistons. He did a great job with that. He wasn't really this sort of professional management guy, so to speak. Stifonsky had been in the business for a while. Van Gondini, needless to say, was also not a professional management. I mean, that guy was an amateur.

It was, you know, by definition, an amateur in an NBA management. Now, Stefansky was a pretty entrenched professional. I think he was a guy who was willing to talk to Gores in a way that Dumars and Van Gondi had not. And I think that maybe Gores was more willing to listen to him. Because you remember in the Blake season, so to speak, the Pistons could have bought it a deadline. Instead, they sold. They sold Reggie Bullock. Because it's like we're not going to be able to pay him in the offseason. Though ultimately they would have been able to pay him in the off season. But so they sold him for two seconds in Sveemichaelic, who was himself traded for future Jersey retiree, Hamadou,

So in any events, so there was that, and he came out, and he's like, yeah, you know, it doesn't make sense for us to be, to be buyers at this point. It just doesn't make any sense. And we're not going to be doing stuff without an eye to the future anymore. They drafted Seku. Remember, after the Blake season, they could easily have gone in and said, we want the guy who can help us right now. Yeah, but they didn't. And they didn't. Yep.

So I think Stefanski actually had a significant role in it. and, you know, I don't think he did the greatest job in terms of personnel management, but, you know, if this was his contribution, if this actually was his contribution, then he should go down in Piston's history as a very important personage in making things happen. Oh, no, I agree. I agree, like unironically, I know we joke about him being the goat, whatever, but if he was able to get into Gore's his ear and sort of make him understand, and I like what you said about how he's able to speak to him on a different level than prior. general managers were because he was coming at it from a place of experience and a place of tenure. And if someone with that pedigree, not that he had, you know, this spectacular track record of managing teams, but, you know, he'd been in the league for a very long time doing this job. And if he's able to look Tom, Gors, in the eyes and say, this isn't working, this is what we need to do moving forward

to ever have a chance of being successful. And Gors listened, then Stifansky deserves to go into the Pistons Hall of Fame. Seriously, if this era amounts to anything. Because that, the success, not the success, the importance of that can't be understated because none of what's happening right now would be happening in the absence of that if this is in fact the case. Yeah. So I would say, I think Stefanski was a factor. I think Gora is getting his big star and finding out that not only was that not going to make you win, I mean, having this star who has a superstar season, not only is this not going to make your team successful, but it might not set you back.

Yeah, I might not even bring in ticket sales. Yeah. So seeing that and seeing the Pistons have that great season on to Blake and then get obliterated in the playoffs, I think that that might have showed him that, you know, his kind of amateur style of meddling was maybe best left of professionals. But also, I think once Blake got injured, I mean, I think that maybe the culmination of those factors,

it was just clearly the end of the line for that roster. But they could still have tried to do something different. and they did not. And yeah, I think that if we're ever, I don't know if we'll ever find this out, I think we'll find out that Stefanski had a significant role. But thank goodness it happened the other way. Yeah. His son's the coach of the Browns.

Isn't that crazy? Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah, his son's the head coach of the Cleveland Browns helped turn them around. So I don't know if there's something in the water in the, in the Stefanski neighborhood. But I think these guys kind of have an understanding. And maybe that just comes with the tenure, but they have an understanding of what it takes to make an organization successful.

So I'll give him all the credit in the world. I'll give him all the credit in the world if it turns out to be the case that he convinced Gors, or at least at a heavy hand in helping Gors understand that things were not going the way that they should have been going. And we were just headed for perpetual imminent mediocrity. Yeah, it's I don't think, I mean, here's the thing about Stefanski, though. He's very, in terms of his actual performance, in terms of personnel management and

yeah, not great. Very, very mediocre. Well, he hired himself, though. Yeah, he hired it. I mean, he got to say great judge of talent. He can say, you know, I know this guy. I have no one in my entire life. Literally.

I can absolutely tell you anything you want to know about him. There will be no secrets. And I think he's the right man for the job. Trust him with my life. I can give him an unimpeachable reference. Absolutely unimpeachable. There's nothing I don't know about him. There would be no secrets that he can keep from me.

You know what that reminds me of, though? And this is something that came out when Troy got hired. Apparently they had tried to hire him a couple years ago, or a couple of years before. he ended up joining the piston so maybe you're right maybe maybe weaver or not stepansky was like yeah this is a guy who could maybe help us start something new and gores was unwilling to do that and Troy weaver doesn't want to join a situation if he knows it's destined to fail so they just had to wait for you know Tom weaver said okay yeah I think what's that weaver was asked but he didn't want yeah but I mean I if if ownership is like

yeah we want to keep competing because it seems like that's what they wanted to do at the time I wouldn't be surprised if Troy's like, yeah, I'm not going to step on a ship with a hole in the hole. No, he had a good gig. Why would you, you know, looking forward that you're well thought of, that you've been assistant to a fairly successful general manager. And going down the line, you can find yourself a gig. Why would it be with the toiling and mediocrity pistons under an owner who's not willing to give you any latitude? And you're going to basically going and have your, and thanks to the team's cap situation and the direct is imposed upon you, you're going to have your hands cuffed right away. That's horribly a general manager job.

No. Why would you ever want to take a job like that? Well, I mean, some guys, yes, but Weaver, who I'm sure must have known that just his resume was going to give him opportunities in the future. Like, why take that opportunity? Yeah, no, he certainly wasn't desperate. He knew that things would come along and obviously he's very confident in himself and in his leadership and management abilities. So we're lucky that he didn't get poached sooner. We really are.

Yeah. I think that's, I think he must have been offered the job by Stefanski and Gores in the context. You know, basically, like, the job he got offered this time must have been just so radically different. Had to have been the pitch he got last time. I mean, I'm just thinking it's like, it must have been night and day in terms of, in terms of what they, in terms of what they're offering. It's like, okay, capped out roster. You have to win. We don't have assets. You know, good luck. Or. or, you know, you can come in and, you know, and we'll give you a lot of latitude. You know, and he hasn't been given a lot of latitude. The Pistons have spent, and will in this upcoming season, spend a lot of money on players

who are not playing for the team. Oh, yeah. A lot of money. Something like the Pistons have right now around 40% of the cap tied up in dead salary. And, you know, credit to Tom Gores. He's willing to pay the money. He's going to pay the money for players who aren't playing for the Pistons. The guy has always been willing to spend the money.

And now we're not desperate anymore. Yeah, how he gets the money is kind of a little bit more dubious, though. I'm sorry to say. Yeah, I mean, now we're able to take our time and be patient with it, and I think that's going to pay off in the long run. Yep. Yep. Absolutely.

Before we wrap, I just wanted to, I know we had talked about this prior to recording, and this is something that's really important to us, so I felt it was important to kind of talk to the listeners about. So obviously, this is a listener-centric show, you know, had its origins in the sub-reference. Reddit and we've all just spent the past hour sort of interweaving into our story of how we, you know, came to be such big Pistons fans. The subreddit's a part of that.

So we're always looking for feedback. We're always looking for ways to improve the show and to know how the listeners view it and what the listener experience is like. So we usually post on the subreddit with a direct link to the podcast. So what we're going to go ahead and do for this episode is we're going to have the same post as usual. But in the comment section, you know, if you're listening to this and if you care, enough to do so. Leave us a suggestion, leave us feedback, leave us comments. Let us know what you'd like

to see us do in the future, what you think we do right, what you think we could improve on. Because honestly, I know I speak for all three of us when I say that we're absolutely invested, number one, in the long haul of this show and number two, in the listener experience. So we want to give you guys the absolute best podcast that we can. But we can't do that without maximal, honest feedback. So if you could, go ahead and leave a comment on the subreddit. And we We'll put something in the body text of the post to remind you guys. But aside from that, yeah, it's all I wanted to say. I think I'm ready to wrap up.

Yeah, absolutely agree. We're always looking to improve. And we're very, very grateful for you guys for really for making this podcast what it is. Really, when I got started, it was really just an opportunity for me to, I don't know, talk and try to produce good content. I honestly didn't really think. didn't really consider, you know, what it might develop into. But it's, you know, now we're part of a network, sponsored. We've got, we've got a very solid listener base.

And we're just, we're just very grateful to all of you, you know, for sticking with us and being so supportive. So, yeah, absolutely. Always looking for feedback and always looking for ideas on future content and just, you know, what you guys would like would most enjoy listening to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's been nice to see the steady growth.

hasn't it? You know, it's, it's, uh, we certainly saw encouraging. Oh, it's so encouraging. And then a little peek behind the curtain. We, we certainly saw a boost when the Pistons won the draft lottery, but that boost proved not to be temporary, you know, we've really grown or we've seen growth in the show and it stayed consistent. So really all we can extrapolate from that is that everybody who's listening genuinely enjoys our analysis, genuinely enjoys our personalities. And so, of course, we want to, you know, give back and make the show as enjoyable as possible. So, I never imagined that I'd be doing something where I'd be a part of a network. And, you know, now I'm able to do it with two people who I genuinely,

outside of the context of the show, feel like are my actual friends. So this has been. Likewise. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah, I feel like Tommy secretly hates me. But me and Mike are besties.

So, but other than that, you know, this has been such a genuinely. It's all right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It gave me the opportunity to be able to speak to Matt Shook, who's like, literally superman to me. So I've just, I don't know, I'm just incredibly, incredibly grateful. This has been

such a fun ride. I'm not getting off anytime soon. We've got to see this through to at least a couple championships, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm hoping we'll be, we'll be around to continue doing this for years to come. Yeah, that'll be a fun episode. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Number one, before we go, what's your guys's favorite episode we've ever recorded? Because mine is the instant draft lottery reaction. Oh, I don't know. We've, we've done a lot of good ones. I just generally always have a good time. And I think that was that was the most I don't know hyped up excited. I mean I we hopped on not long after the draft lottery like my hands were literally shaking after I saw the one pick. I mean I could uh yeah it was it was it was

the most exhilarated I'd felt in a long time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What about you, Tony? For me, I think it was episode 48. It was our series that we were doing where it was um, we check up on the players of interest and it was Isaiah Stewart, Sadiq Bay, Jeremy Grant, Killian, and I think Josh Jackson. And that was the first episode that I actually listened to. Because up until that point, pure honesty, like, I didn't want to do this initially because I was too scared to do it. I kind of tried to force myself.

But even then, I recorded 40-something episodes without ever listening back because I would hear my own voice. I would immediately kill the recording. But that was the first one where I liked it enough. that was willing to listen to it. And now I listen to the podcast and I enjoy it. But that was the first one who I felt like, I felt like that there was some growth to the point where I could actually listen to myself.

So that one was, that was a good one to me. Wholesome answer after wholesome answer for this guy. I'm unbelievable. Yeah. Love it. Love it. So I guess,

I guess that's it unless anybody's got any final thoughts. No, it's just, I hope, hope you all enjoyed the episode. And it was a bit, a bit of a change of pace. A little unorthodox.

Yeah, well, for us. Yeah. For us. And there's definitely something we'll do again in the future if people enjoyed it. Yep. Yeah, folks, as always, thank you for listening. We'll catch you in the next episode.