Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 63: Pistons ad-libs and prop bets, part one

Episode Date: October 5, 2021

This episode features Mike and Tommy answering a series of ad-libs and calling some overs/unders. Topics include the Pistons' placement in the standings, Cade Cunningham's likeliest eventual backcourt partner for the season, the team's likeliest second-leading scorer (behind Jerami Grant), scoring numbers for Cunningham, and more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back, everybody, to Drive into the Basket, part of the Basketball Podcast Network. I am Mike, joined as always by Dante and Tommy. Fellas, been a while since we recorded. What's new with you guys? Not much is new. Honestly, it's a little bit of the same old, same old, but we got kind of a special episode coming up, so I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, Dante's actually suggested this one a while back, but we wanted to wait until the roster was a little bit more finalized, and I'm very excited. Yeah. So really all there is in the way of, you know, before we get started with a very special episode, trademark.

This has just been a little bit of basketball news since we last recorded. Biggest piece of news, of course, is Wook-Garza being upgraded to a standard NBA contract to your deal. You can always upgrade players from, well, aside from the moratorium period, you can always upgrade players from a two-way deal to a standard NBA contract. So we haven't gotten the details, but we know it's a two-year minimum deal. It's just the second year. It's probably non-guaranteed. And replacing him on the two-way roster, so to speak, every team has two-two-way contract slots, was Jamarco Pickett, whom I know the Pistons were fairly impressed with at Summer League.

And in addition to those two at training camp, you'll have Cassius Stanley, Anthony Tark, and Derek Walton, Jr. So they're on what's called Exhibit 10 contracts, basically one year, fully non-guaranteed contracts. The Exhibit 10 part basically is that the player gets a, I think, a $50,000 bonus if they end up with the Motor City crews. So they, the three of them have functionally, I'd say no chance at making the roster, unless one of them really does super well and ends up taking away the two-way slot currently occupied by Chris Smith. but the Pistons with Garza are at 15 standard NBA contracts. It's a maximum you can carry. Anyway, as for Garza, yeah, congratulations to him. Congratulations to his father, Frank,

when we had in this show about a month ago. I know it's huge for them. They've worked, you know, Frank talked about very, very hard for many years towards the achievement of this goal. So, yeah, congratulations to both of them. It's real great. Yeah, really, good for them. Like, we talked about, I mean, maybe we were skeptical.

I mean, you and me, Mike, especially just because of his play style, even though he was a very good college player. But the way that they've managed to pull it together and get this standard NBA contract, I'll be honest, I wasn't expecting it. So good for them proving the skeptics wrong. I really hope it works out. He definitely seems like a culture fit. And I think he's going to be a nice addition to the team, at least on the bench. So very excited for him. Yeah.

And I could have sworn, correct me if I'm wrong, somebody during our mid-summer league review show, somebody said that they think that Garza earned a standard contract. Who was it? Can you guys refresh my memory? Somebody said it. I don't remember. I'm pretty sure it was me. No, I thought it was Stephen A. Smith.

I could have sworn it was a little old mean. That was big. That was big. Yeah. Yeah. Well, irregardly. Flowers, man. Eric Curtis.

That's not a real word. Are you George W. Bush? Um, so you're surely over exaggerating this. Must be. But I just wanted to offer the biggest of congratulations to Frank and Luca and his family. I'm going to offer the biggest congratulations to myself for being right. Yeah.

You didn't let me finish my sentence. I was going to be next. Don has been watching old professional wrestling videos at the Rock. And from now on, I mean, he's increasingly begun speaking of himself in the third person. Oh, bad. This has got to be the weirdest congratulations ever. He's going himself to crock. But congratulations are in order.

That's it. I'll leave it at that. Absolutely. It's true. And, you know, I think that whatever comes, it'll be fun to see, to see who we'll come on the roster. And we'll see what he can do. So just a couple of, well, three key dates to look at as we inch closer and closer to the season, which is coming up on us very quickly. So the 28th is the start of training camp.

Fistons opened preseason October the 6th against the San Antonio Spurs. And then two weeks after that, so the 20th is the season opener against the Chicago Bulls. I'm excited. Finally, more real basketball. I can't believe we went through a nine months off season last year. Is that crazy? Oh, man. Wild.

Yeah, I was thinking about that because this one was obviously a little bit shorter. And my God, that stretch without basketball was so boring. Yeah, could be worse, though. Survivor wasn't on for a year. Oh, goodness. Wow. Somehow I went on without even noticing. Yeah.

Yeah, who would like Survivor? Not me. That's for sure. Well, was it like Survivor episode 25, The Martian Outback or something? It's actually season 41. Yeah, did they put them in like the middle of an active volcano or something? No, that's coming. That's next season, actually.

That's next season. Yeah, this is, this is random. Don't spoil. I'm not caught up. Oh, you're not caught up. Yeah. Yeah, I've heard of these, I've heard of these shows in which they just draw people out in the middle of nowhere with like no tools and you have to see if you can make it. Or I remember what it's called naked.

Make it and Afraid. Yeah, there's this show called the, I'm veering incredibly off topic here, but there's a show called Alone that I, well, watched on the history channel. Well, it's on Hulu, but where they drop a bunch of people, yeah, off in the middle of nowhere, which is small number of items and see who lasts the longest. Is it Stan Van Gundy and Tom Gores? Tom Gores wants instant results. I mean, I'm pretty sure.

That's a short episode. That's a short one. That's a short episode. So, yeah, I think he wasn't really able to make wilderness survival profitable. And that's a good one. Yeah, there's a complete, I mean, there are no customers. You know, it was just his, just him. So I don't think he, I think he judged a poor use of his time.

Stan Van Gundy ended up, like, trading all of his good items for really, really crappy items. And then, like, breaking them on the first day. Yeah. And he didn't search for water either because he had a zig when other zagged. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, he just decided he was going to drink only bare urine. and he got flying wheel and so he lasted until day two.

Oh my God. I watched this show. Of course. Of course. All right. Yeah. All right. Is this episode about?

Yeah, this episode, okay. So I'm just going to, so this episode is entirely Dante's idea. So I'm going to just pass it on to him and let's get rolling. Yeah. So I've been suggesting for a little bit and we decided that this would probably be easier to do closer to the season when the roster is set and we have a better idea of what might actually go on. So this episode, we're going to be doing ad libs and prop bets. And if you guys don't know what those are, essentially what it is is ad libs or just fill in

the blanks. So I'll ask a question. And Mike and Tommy have to answer off the top of their head. They have to fill in the blank. And then a discussion ensues. And then a prop bet is like, you know, over under. So I'll give a figure or some kind of a prompt. I'll set the over, under and for that section Mike and Tommy one of them is going to go first they're going to answer first and one of them picks the over the other person is going to have to pick the under so on and so forth so for the prop bets it's going to have to be competing different answers that might cause some debates for the ad libs because it's so broad both or all three of us can pick the same answer so with that being said I'm ready to jump into it if you guys are we can start with the ad libs

warm our brains up a little bit and then start to debate during the prop bets. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So let's start with an easy one. I will do the prompt. I don't know who wants to go first. I'm just going to choose right now. Okay, Mike's going first.

Yeah. All right. So let's start with the Pistons will finish blank in the Eastern Conference. Okay. You'll hear a little bit of typing here as I look up the standing from last year because whatever, I can never keep the 15 teams in the conference straight. So you can look at a certain number of teams who I can say beyond almost any shadow but that will finish out of the pistons.

You have the obvious ones, the 76ers, the bucks, the nets. I'd say the heat almost certainly. The Celtics, even if they have a disaster of a season. We can go down the list. The Pacers, I feel pretty good about it with Carlisle at the helm. The Hornets have a good team. The Raptors, I think, will be back to some degree. The Bulls, I don't think, will be a good team, but it'll be probably fighting for the first

rounds. And so the teams I could see the Pistons finishing ahead of are the magic, the cavaliers, and the wizards. Just that things are going to be a lot closer in the East. There are a lot, there are much better teams in the Eastern Conference. We'll put it this way. the conference has been getting progressively stronger, and it should be quite strong this season.

So you might see more disparity in the standings. I think that the Pistons, if I had to guess, and bear in mind that things could just really come together and go very right for the Pistons, which would maybe land them in like the plans or something, or they could go very wrong for other teams that suffer major injuries. But I'm going to go with a 12th.

I think the Pistons could finish ahead of the Wizards, the Magic, and the Cavs. Wizard's Magic Cows. Yep. Tommy, you're up. I would also say 12. The three teams for me is Cavaliers, Magic, and then I think it's a coin toss, but I'm really low on the Raptors this year for a few reasons.

One, they finished out last year tanking. They drafted Scotty Barnes, who is the definition of a project player, didn't look great in summer league. He had flashes of like really nice athletic ability and effort, but he's going to take some time. They traded away. They didn't trade away. Yeah, I think it was a sign and trade for Kyle Lauer. Yeah.

Kyle Lauerty's gone. So they have Van Vleet, Gary Trent Jr. Their center rotation is awful. I am not very high on the Raptors. I think, honestly, they might just tank it out again. Maasai is a very good executive. He's, they have direction. I would not be surprised if the Pistons finished above them.

A lot of things went wrong for the Raptors. 12 as well. Yeah, I mean, they're not trying to. win, though. Yeah, but I think they've got enough talent to make it work. By making it work and by me saying they're back, I don't think that they'll be back in terms of a team that's going to make it to the second or the third rounds in the playoffs. But I think that's, I think that they will, I think they could easily finish the season or on a 500 record. They could. I just, I don't see why they would. Miss I, last year, last season, I think they finished

11th or 12th just right about the distance or not they were number eight they're number eight they finished eighth in the lottery yeah and at the end of the season they were definitely tanking down so i i just with that in mind i could see us finishing above them the wizards i'm not going to bet against bradley beale they're not a good team i think they finally fired scott brooks and i think yes was uh was on cell was on coach yep so maybe that will help him out new offensive scheme. I have no idea if Wes Onseld is a good coach, but I think they still have a little

more talented veteran presence than we do. So I would rather swap the Raptors in. But I agree with you. I think we finish 12th, and I think that's a good median. I could also see us finishing at the very bottom. I don't think the person's finished at the very bottom.

It must the best things go tremendously wrong. But just something thing to mention. Yeah, the Wizards have KCP now. And this is not me saying anything about what he's going to do for the Wizards, but we found out recently, well, it has been alleged with all the talk about Rich Paul and him kind of messing around with his clients a bit or being very negligent or giving them awful advice that he may have been the one who advised, who advised KCP to turn down $80 million from the business. Oh, boy. Thank you, Rich Paul. Yeah, thank you, Rich Paul. Indeed,

definitely. But who knows how things would have gone differently there. uh probably well who knows i mean the pistons had another bad contract in the books maybe that's maybe that gets thrown off the clippers if the business decide to trade for griffin whatever who knows things you can ever trace to change one thing a lot of other things could change but uh yeah i mean i think things ultimately worked out very well for him he's he didn't make the same amount of money he could have made but he did win a championship yeah but that that was interesting just an interesting story. And I really dislike how powerful Rich Paul has become in the NBA. Yeah. It's just ridiculous. Correct me if I'm wrong. Is he not currently facing some kind of

issue with Nerlin's Noel or is that another age? Okay, because I looked pretty deeply into that one. And it's like, you know, a player makes a bad financial choice and then you hear that they're blaming their agent. And it's like, okay, yeah, you're just looking for someone to pin the blame on. But when you look into the story a little deeper and it was that the Rich Paul and his agency didn't do the due diligence and even notifying Nerlands of the offers he was receiving, that's pretty sketchy. Like they may have a case there. So I know you mentioned that you don't like how much power he's garnered, but that could be,

you know, wavering a little bit because that's a very serious allegation of not even bringing an offer to your client. Yeah, there's that. There was some news and I'm not sure if this was ever corroborated. I don't know if it ever came out that that's, because, it's never been said again, but that's, uh, that there was a possibility of Tyrese being sent out alongside Simmons because Rich Paul, he's a colloquial line to Rich Paul doesn't want either of them on the Sixers. And if something like that came true, I mean,

if I were Darryl Morey, I'd be like, uh, I'd be like, okay, I'd be like, okay, Mr. Paul, uh, we like Tyrese, but if you try to make this happen, we will hold him out of every game for the next three seasons and we'll see how much. It'll see how highly he thinks. of you after that. You know, it's just like, you know, you can see a guy like Daryl Morey. I mean, that would be extreme even for him. But man, yeah, it's just you talk about even in the age of like player empowerment when things are going a little bit wonky.

And I think it's, I think it's ridiculous that people with it. I think players like Ben Simmons and I just, I thought, well, I thought poorly Ben Simmons for a while just because he's consistently refused to do what his team has asked of him as far as becoming a shooter and changing his game at all. And it's been established that he's refused. to shoot. So Doc Rivers apparently was publicly okay with that to a degree. But in any events, it's like, okay, you didn't do what your team desperately needed to do. You refused to change a play style because you didn't feel like it. And oh my goodness, now you've criticized me for it.

Well, I want out. Yeah. It's like, you're being paid a lot of money. I think that your team should have the rights to suspend you without pay and then basically fine you severely for every game you choose to miss because you don't feel like fulfilling your contract. I don't think players should have this much power. I think that they should be empowered to find him out of existence. I'm exaggerating a little bit. But I'm like, this is nonsense. You can't just sign this gigantic contract that's paying you hundreds of thousands of dollars a day

and then just say, well, I don't feel like it because I'm angry. It's like there should be severe repercussions for that. And other sports, I don't know, Don, do you're much more into the NFL. What happens to players in the NFL who do this? It's funny. This is a conversation that I think we can maybe dedicate a big, chunk of a future episode too because it's something I'm super passionate about. You're way off track.

Yeah. No, it's okay. We'll move on shortly after this. But in terms of the NFL, it's funny that you ask me that because that's what I was going to come in with. I think that the NFL, as much as it's a bit of an old boys club and doesn't empower its players nearly as much as the NBA. I say nearly as much, but it's honestly not even the same. It's not in the same stratosphere level of player empowerment. There was a player by the name of Levion Bell, who was the consensus, maybe not the consistent. census, at the bare minimum, a top two or three running back in the league. He was a stud ever since he came out of Michigan State, went to Pittsburgh, absolutely tore it up.

And I remember this very well because I picked him in the first round of my fantasy draft that year. But he decided to hold out because running backs are pretty underpaid relative to, you know, the amount of punishment they take on their body. And so he couldn't come to any kind of contract resolution with the Steelers. And so he sat out. And the repercussions of something like that in the NFL are that take the top. or one of the top two running backs in the league at 25 years of age. And now at age 28, he doesn't have a team. He's not on a team.

He's an afterthought. And that's what happens when you break your contract in the NFL. You're effectively blackballed. And I'm not saying that there can't be some kind of a middle ground. But what I never understood in the NBA is how the players have the ability to sign a contract and then just completely, you know, pull in Anthony Davis or a James Hardin or a Ben Simmons and completely just ripped the contract in half and have no regard for what the team should be receiving on their end

because even going back to the last dance, right, this has been happening since Scotty Pippen. Scotty was mad that he was underpaid, and I know I'm getting a little off topic, but Scotty was mad that he was getting underpaid, right? But he's the one who chose to sign this long-term deal for financial security. And the analogy that I had always used was, well, if Scotty signed this long-term deal for more guaranteed money,

he sets foot on the court for his first game after signing the deal, deal and he breaks both of his legs. He would still expect the Chicago Bulls to pay out all of the guaranteed money on his contract. So I don't understand why inversely he doesn't have to honor his end of the agreement. So Mike, I completely agree with you. Players have far too much power. And I think that we should talk about this at a later date because it could be to the detriment of the NBA. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah, I know I directed us enormously off topic there. No, but it's true. I don't know if you had any thoughts on that, Tommy. But I think we should save this for a future episode, honestly.

Fair enough. Yeah. No, I think we've gone on that long enough. I want to hear where you think the Pistons will finish. Anywhere between, I had an answer ready. I'll just say anywhere between 15 and 10. Anywhere between 15 and 1. Anywhere between 15 and 1.

Yeah. If you want to lay down a bet, you know, you can bet all of, some of those odds. You can bet you can put all of your money into betting that the pistons. We'll pick, excuse me, we'll finish between 1 and 15. And I'm guaranteed to win. You're guaranteed to win, and you're also guaranteed to make $0 off the bet. Well, we're not at the prop bet section, so we'll save that for the prop bets. Yeah, there was that dude who bet like $10,000 during one of the Durant, Sarah Warrior

seasons that the Warriors would make the playoffs and made like $200. Beautiful. It's a free $200. But all right, all right. So moving on, moving on. Okay, I'm looking at my list. What would be good right now? All right.

So, excluding Jeremy Grant, not necessarily because I think he for sure has to be the answer to this question, but in the interest of making it more interesting, excluding Jeremy Grant, the Pistons leading score this year will be blank. Tommy, you're up. Kate Cunningham. Pardon me. Yeah, I think that the Pistons will eventually ease him into a ball handling role where he's going to get a lot of usage. And while I do think Jeremy Grant should be the leading score, Cade Cunningham is a very capable

on and offball shooter so it makes a lot of sense for regardless of how you use him. He should get his shots and I expect him to get heavy usage. There's no illusions about it. Cade Cunningham is the future of this team and they need to get him the opportunity early and often. So definitely

Cade Cunningham. He should be, if not the number one score, the number two. Yep. Mike, what do you think? As much as I'd like to say something crazy and go with, I don't know, Hamadutti all or something. I think the realistic answer and the one we're all hoping for is definitely Kade.

And Tommy and, well, myself and Dante have viscerously disagreed with Tommy on the notion that he's going to be, you know, played in an off ball role or whatever else, I think, and hope that it'll start the season in a pretty heavily on ball role. And I think some of that will depend on what we see in preseason. But, yeah, I'd say that he's going to be the first or second leading score. If he's the leading score, you know, great. I think Jeremy Grants will probably, you could see his average go down because I don't think he'll be utilized as heavily, which would be ideal.

Or who knows? I mean, if he's just shooting more uncontested threes, then maybe his average will stay as it was. But he's not going to be hopefully as alone as he was last season. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree with you guys. And for the record, even if I didn't remove Jeremy from this question, I would have said Cade, not really just because I'm hoping it. I just, I don't know. I feel like it's like Tommy said,

he's going to be fed early and often. And Grant, we know, is comfortable in an off ball supporting role. So I think between the two of them, it'll be close, but I wouldn't be at all shocked if it was Cade and he might even have been my answer to that question. So we get to move on? Yeah. Okay. I like this one. And I think you guys will like this one too. I believe it's Mike first. So assuming no injuries, Cade Cunningham's back court partner by the end. of the season will be blank. Oh, man, that one hurts because... That's a good one.

Yeah, I'd like to say that Killian will get it together and they'll find some way to do it. I'm not... I like Killian, I think. He seems like just a great kid who's got a good head and his shoulders. I'm not 100% confident he isn't going to get the shot together this year. He came into the league fairly raw with a long way to go. I know I do agree with... Tommy has said about confidence being an issue. I'm not sure if it's the primary issue.

I think that he's just got, he's got ways to go both in terms, both physically and mentally. And I'm not convinced he's ever going to be the best long-term fit with Cade, especially given the kind of mediocrity of the athleticism and what would be that starting five between Cade, Killian, and Bay, none of whom is either an explosive athlete or Good Leaper, or Isaiah Stewart, rather. It should really weave you with one above average NBA athletes. And that just takes away quite a bit in the way of options. So I would say, and I know I'm like the Hamadou believer,

and this depends on him becoming a good three-point shooter. Because honestly, shooting guard is the position at which it could really go, one of many ways. So assuming Kate is knocked, it is just put in as point guard in just a very long lineup, which is how I think it should go. So I would say the two most likely are, well, I'm just going to go with, I'm going to go with the L. I've got confidence he can get it together. If he can become a passable, you know, passable three point shooter, then, or a guy who shoots like consistent like 36% on open,

on open catch and shoot threes, I think it's going to be very difficult to keep him out of the starting lineup. So maybe that's wishful thinking on my part. It's not wishful thinking, but it's kind of hopeful thinking. So I would go with Diallo. I'm fairly certain that Tommy is going to say Corey Joseph. Are you? I was about to say there are a lot of people who really want to be Diallo, so you're going to have fans there.

I'm going to say Frank Jackson, and it's on the assumption that by the end of the season, Cade Cunningham is the lead ball handler, and in that case, you want to maximize the spacing around him. And Frank is no slouch athletically. He's not Hamadu, definitely by any means. but Frank Jackson, between the options of Killian Hayes, Hamadou Diallo, and himself, I think he's the best, he projects to be the best three-point shooter, especially by year's end. And I know we had a small sample size from him, so it could change.

Trades could happen, who knows. But if I had to pick one of those three guys and I want to pick the best fit around Cade for his development and opening up the floor for him, I'm going to go with Frank Jackson. So this is good because the three of us are all going to have a different answer. And there we go. Yeah, regarding this question. I promise you what I'm going to say next is not Corey Joseph. It's not.

It says it Rod the Bod. Yeah. No, I'll say that. I know that's Rod Brenda Moore, but I used it with Rodney McGruder. No, no, no, no. I understand. But this is, I'll say this. The organization wants the answer to this question to be Killian Hayes.

Without a doubt. They want it to be Killian Hayes. Absolutely. As much as I see where Tommy's coming from, and that Frank is for sure. I'm comfortable saying he's for sure projecting to be the best shooter. And I agree with where Mike is coming from and that Diallo, I'm a believer in Diallo too,

and I could easily see him overtaking Killian in terms both of effectiveness and fit. I think the organization wants it to be Killian. So I would say, barring an absolute disaster, and I would define a realistic absolute disaster as no improvement on the part of Hayes throughout the season, I think that they're really going to try their best to make this marriage sort of work. So unless Killian doesn't improve one iota from where he was at in Summer League, I'd say they're going to stick him out there and I'd say they're going to keep him out there.

Is that the best choice? I don't know, but that's what I believe. We haven't, again, I just think we're really selling short Rodney McGruder here. He's like he's got almost, I mean, he's a veteran, a veteran lead. I don't know, I can't really go anywhere with this. Rodney McGruder, I mean, that was a good one. You throw, I mean, honestly, you know, with all respect to Rodney McGruder, it's very important that he, you know, that his uncle knows Troy Weaver well.

You've got to put some nepotism in here. I'm just joking with that. Okay, whatever. By all accounts, Rodney McGruder was very good in the locker room last season. And I know that Tommy and I certainly were very skeptical, skeptical, rather, excuse me, about, well, how important is it? Why not to have guys like this, why not put somebody just a young player in there? But apparently they thought highly enough of them to keep them around.

His teammates really liked them. So, you know. Yeah, I was actually thinking about this recently. We don't have a lot of veteran leadership in that locker room. I think like half the roster is year one and two guys. So it's good to have some experience in there. Yeah. I mean, if you're looking at year one and two guys, yeah.

I'm just looking at it right now. Kaly and Saban, Sadie, Isaiah Stewart. those are year one guys and then you have you've got cade garza livers uh yeah so that's seven in any case yep so what i would say about frank jackson the ideal lineup that i think you can have on the floor with kate is just you put him a point guard and then you've got a bunch of big long guys that's you know that sounds like i'm uh whatever big long guys sounds like a little bit pornographic, but you know what I mean? You know, tall guys with long wings, long NBA wingspans.

So in that case, you can't just switch your whoever onto Cade's smaller backcourt partner, you know, beyond the obvious benefits of just having excellent size out in the court. Yeah, I think what you want to do, you want to put Kate out there and you want to put him with a shooting guard who's got size like Diochalian does, but doesn't really play like it. Yeah. And Frank Jackson, I think, is just, I don't think he's star quality player. So not that it matters for the Pistons next season, but I just don't think he'd be ideal for what they're trying to pull off. That said, if he's the only one of those guys who can shoot, then by all means.

No, I agree. And I'll just say as a quick production note here, I did have five ad libs, but in the interest of time, I really want to get to all five prop bets. So I think I'm just going to go with the one more ad lib, if you guys. are okay with that. I think we've got, I'm fine making it, making this a slightly longer episode.

I don't think one additional. I'm fine with that too, but I just have a feeling that these prop bets will stir some pretty good debate. So I definitely want to get to all of them. So, okay, let's see how we're doing.

Maybe we can throw in the last ad lib as a little bonus at the end. But as far as the last one for right now, I'll, I'll go ahead. I believe it's Tommy up first this time. And this ad lib is, the Pistons leader in a assistant. will be blank and they will average blank assists per game.

Oh, okay. By years end, I'm hoping it's Kade and I would go with seven. I think that would be a good number. Maybe that's ambitious for a rookie, but I know that we had this long discussion about easing K'd in, but that was like a first 20 games type deal. I do want Kade to have like entered the full role by the end of the season. and far earlier than that, if anything. And Cade is a gifted passer, and he's going to have options.

He's going to have options on the perimeter. He's going to have Jeremy Grant waiting on the wing who can catch, shoot, drive in. There are going to be a lot of opportunities for Cade. And I would like to take the ball out of whoever's hands, Killian, Corey Joseph, and let Cade run the offense because so much of his impact is going to be the gravity that he draws. he is a very good shooter off the pull-up. You guys are going to have to defend him close. And advantage creation is something that the pistons lacked last year.

And now theoretically they have it. So Cade Cunningham, six assists, or seven assists. And that's maybe a little bit high, but somebody's going to do the passing. And somebody's got to do that work. So I would like it to be Cade. Before Mike jumps in, I just think this is so funny. next to these ad libs that I wrote, I put my answers, and I answered Cade 7. So I'm not even going to go ahead with whatever spiel I was going to give, Tommy, you just illustrated.

I got you. We have the exact same answer. So I wonder if Mike has a different one. So it just should be noted, I think that that is definitely ambitious and, you know, with all respect to the way things have developed in the NBA over the last decade or so you look at the last eight seasons, so many players, how many rookies do you think of average? seven or more assists. Probably very few. Very few. Just take a guess.

Three. Four is your answer. There was... Oh, nice. Nice. There was Trey Young. Let me think. Trey Young, Ben Simmons, Wanzo Ball,

and I'm forgetting... Oh, yeah, Jammarant. Here's the fourth. And no, I don't have this stuff committed to memory. I just looked it up recently, but, well, in all honesty, I looked it up like three minutes ago and just couldn't, you know. That's reason. Yeah, I'm not running on the most sleep right now, so I couldn't remember all four of them,

like immediately off the top of my head. So, no, I don't have that sort of machine-like statistical memory. I'm not going to lay claim to that. So, yeah, it's a lot to ask, definitely. And, you know, you hope that Kate comes in and is as billed. And I think that it's not out of the question in that case. I think you do have to look as well at, like, at Oklahoma states, okay, he had X number of assists. He also had X number of potential assists because his teammates couldn't shoot.

Yeah, and that's important. Yeah, and that's important. And that's something I think that needs to be taken into account with the Pistons, who still may not be the best force-facing team around. So I would be perfectly content with Cid averaging six assists per game, especially because I think you're going to see the ball handling duties spread to an extent while they try to make Killian work. Corey Joseph's going to get run. And I don't, yeah, we'll see.

We'll see how the, the offensive style develops around Cade. The hope is that he can be that kind of really big central creator, in which case you'll see him taking a larger share of the assists. But I think it'd be Cade and maybe about six, though. If he really gets going and things go really well, I'd peg him maybe as high as eight. But I think six is a safe. place to go. Yeah, between six and eight, obviously eight being like the super optimistic outcome, but even the players that you'd mentioned who managed that in their rookie year, it's like,

well, if Kate is as billed, as you put it, I mean, is that that crazy to think he could be amongst that company? Because that's the hope, right? That's what we're striving for. So, I mean, I don't think it's out of the question at all. And so it's good that all three of us have the same answer. And if he can get up to eight, that would spell very good things for the future this team, I'd imagine. If he's gotten up to eight, then things have gone exceptionally well in a couple of different ways. Definitely.

In several. Well, for him and for the team. The team is shooting well. And he's playing very well himself. I agree. So actually, you know what? Let's get to the last ad lib. We may as well.

We're making pretty good time. This is fun. So I believe this is Mike first. And the last ad lib is, Isaiah Stewart will average blank points and blank points and blank rebounds per game. Okay, let's see. I got a look up Isaiah Stewart's stats here from last season. I can't remember those up the top of my head.

So I'm pretty confident that Isaiah Stewart is going to be the starter. You could say that, okay, well, the Pistons, yeah, we're paying a winick, I think, I remember it was $12, $13 million, $12-something million next season. That's not an unreasonable salary for a guy who comes up and plays big minutes off the bench these days by any means. In fact, the heat gave him four years at about that average salary. I think he started at 11 and a half to do that exact same thing, to come off the bench and play minutes at both power forward and center. Olinick has more of a power forward than a center.

When he has started, it is, in the vast majority of cases, has been a power forward because he's just not a guy you want as you're starting center. Put it that way. He's on offense, like he's not the most potent role man. He's decent, but not great. but more on defense. You just can't anchor a defense. He's a weak interior defender.

He's a below average room protector. He'll get bullied by anybody who's got size on him, which is a lot of guys. So he's a guy you bring off the bench, probably to play a lot of his minutes of power forward and to play at center where the matchup is advantageous. And he can have advantageous matchups at center, particularly on offense because he can take slower centers off the dribble.

He's good at exploiting smaller lineups by switching and sealing guys out. in the post and scoring over them and so on and so forth. Strongly doubt the Pistons have any intent to sign him with the intention of starting Emmett's center. It's just not ideal for him. So I think it's Isaiah Stewart who's going to start. I also think they moved on from, well, they moved on from Plumlee because they didn't want his money on the books in part. They wanted that extra money for free agency. So I guess it didn't have anything to do with opening the way for Isaiah Stewart in my estimation.

Stewart last year in only about 21 minutes per game, averaged 8 and 7. And on a per 36 basis, that was about 13 and 11. He was a genuinely strong rebounder. He was a pretty good interior score. And he got stronger and then kind of weaker as they got down the stretch as a shooter. So I think you'll see him play probably about 30 minutes a game. And he really improved a lot just in general. though, after really a rough start to early last season,

which was understandable both coming into the NBA and having no offseason, for the people, you know, no real NBA offseason. So I would say Isaiah can manage maybe 13 and 10, I would say, probably in about 30 minutes per game. Yep. Yeah, I like that. I was going to go with 14 and 10. I think I'm a little higher on the points per game

because Isaiah Stewart loves to run the first. floor in transition and he's definitely a guy who he takes pride in that and kate cunningham during summer league there was that mic'd up segment and kate cunningham was like tall he was shouting out let's beat them down the floor all five guys down the floor before them and he's a good hit-a-head passer killing hayes as well that's a good combination for isaiah stewart so and then he's just stronger than a lot of these guys i expect big things from isaiah stewart he showed some talent to run the basket I want him to have a good season, and I agree with you. He should be the starter, and I'm very high on his potential production this season.

So 14 and 10 for me, I think he can average the triple double. Double double. Triple double will be nice, but not that. Be become the first senator who averaged a triple double since Wilt. No, not to know, actually, no, I don't know. Robertson is a point guard. Did Wilt ever average a triple double? I don't know.

I can't remember if Wilt did that. I mean, I think somebody would make the argument that I think as somebody's said before he was playing against plumbers and uh and and milkmen but uh anyway you got you got to go on youtube and look up will chamberlain archives that guy was still an athletic freak i know that would yeah competition but dude that guy could jump he's legitimately like a scary athlete anyway yeah he couldn't handle Isaiah Stewart regardless oh definitely not Isaiah Stewart is about to blow wilt's best season out of the water here the answer is no wilts wilt did not uh The closest he came was when he averaged 24 points, 24 rebounds,

and a mere 8.6 assist for game. Scrub. Scrub. Scrub. Yeah. Absolutely scrub. Yeah, pales in comparison to Isaiah Stewart, who I have pegged for 14 and 11, for a lot of the same reasons that you guys mentioned.

So we don't have to go into it too, too much. I think you guys have made my points for me, really. I think a variance of like half a point to a point is not. not that big of a deal. And I think he's a bit of a better rebounder than he gets credit for. So if he gets, you know, 30 minutes a night or around that, I don't think 14 and 11 is out of the question. Even 14 and 12, I don't think would be that crazy.

So that's where I'm at with him. And with that being said, it's probably that time. No, I'll just say with Isaiah Stewart, this is an issue that all of us have had pegging exactly how good he can be. Oh, yeah. I think I stopped. I stopped really trying to say, oh, well, I'm just, it's hard to say. I think that something it should be taken into account, though,

is that he will be in the starting lineup with more guys who are getting, we're going to get more burn, I'll put it that way, whereas the Pistons last season were very pressed for options. So he might, I don't know, it's just you got more talent that's come on to the team. And you might find that the guys who are rookies, particularly Bay and Stewart might get a little bit less opportunity than they got last season as a result. Yeah, yeah, no.

I agree with that. Makes sense to me. But if you guys are ready. Yeah, all set. But first, let's hear a quick word from our sponsors. With football right around the corner, it's time to get in on the action with Draft King's Sportsbook, the official sports betting partner of the NFL.

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or in Indiana, 1-800-9 with it. Okay, so the way that the prop bet segment is going to work is we're going to alternate like we have been doing, but the two of you are forced to choose different answers. So if the person who goes first chooses the over, the other person has to pick the under. You guys are going to have to debate it. And then I'll just weigh in at the very end. And then we can be done. I was joking before the show that Dante was going to say something like, you know,

basically make me argue that Drummond was going to win defensive player of the year or something. Yeah, definitely not going to do that. I think he would just leave. Yeah, yeah, it's like, Tommy wanted to do starts. And it's like, it's like, what would you say? It's like, what would you say the percentage possibility is that, that Andre Drummond will win defensive player the year? And Tommy's like, zero percent.

So you have to argue it's 100%. Yeah, let me just. I wouldn't do that to you. It's like here's how I could win defensive player of the year. Everybody else in the NBA quits and they have to replace them with scabs who are with scabs who are drawn exclusively from high school teams. That Andre could have been defensive player the year. Yeah, that question is not on here.

But speaking of big men, we do have a big man question. So who's up first? Who's answering first? I think it's me. All right, Tommy. So the first prob that this is regarding Luca Garza's minutes per game. and the line of seven and a half. All right.

I like Luca Garza, but I'm going to go ahead and take the under here. Okay. Jockey. Okay. I would expect him to spend more time or more minutes in the G League with the crews than I do with the big team this year. I like Garza, but if he's on the floor, he's going to get, he's going to get targeted. A team should do their best to pull him out to the perimeter and just try to blow by him.

I know he's working hard, and I know he's, they're definitely aware of the problem with mobility. They've addressed that. They've talked about the weight loss. They've talked about the drills that they're running on the perimeter. And I hope that he can hang with NBA players. I didn't expect him to get upgraded to a standard NBA contract, so maybe there's something that they see in him. Maybe he does get regular minutes, but I'm going to take the under seven minutes here, seven and a half, whichever it was. So we'll go with the, we have to answer this question, of course.

with the proviso that we're assuming reasonable health. So maybe you, you know, maybe you see Olinic and Isaiah Stewart missed like eight games apiece or something like that. And I think it should be mentioned that Trey Liles is certainly a candidate to see third string center minutes, excuse me. He's not a great interior defender, but he's somewhat capable. He's tall. He's got a very good wingspan.

He can take on some of those minutes. and I think it's not unlikely that he would get them ahead of Garza and West Luca hits the floor and has made tremendous progress. So, yeah, if we're talking, if we're arguing the over, okay, I'll just come up with a conceivable scenario. That's the exercise. That's the exercise, and we're going to go with not saying somebody gets injured. Not saying somebody gets injured. Well, I mean, to be fair, that is a valid consideration. I think it's a cheap way of answering it, though.

It is. Yeah, do it non-cheap. I got you. All right. So, look, it comes on and is a passable interior defender, or it is not an outright liability, and has made just a great, great strides does very well as a shooter, this three-point shooter, has somehow managed to make it work as a post-player in the NBA, which is very difficult to do. We've talked about this in previous episodes.

There are very few guys who even attempt post-offence on high volume in the NBA anymore. and almost all of them are of all-star caliber. The almost is Andre Drummond. So it's, yeah, it's just, it's very difficult to make post offense worthwhile. No, that was part of Garza's bread and butter in the NCAA. It's difficult to translate, but if you can manage to translate that somehow and make himself a threat and make himself a playmaking threat out of the post, then maybe you see him get a larger share of the minutes.

a decent share of the center minutes, the backup center minutes over Olinic. I still think it's unlikely he would average more than 10 minutes per game. But in that case, who knows, maybe you put him out there against the beefier centers when Isaiah Stewart isn't on the floor. And then he's able to make some things happen on offense as well. And sure, maybe you see him average 10 or 11 minutes per game in that situation. But he's, of course, got to make himself in that situation a worthwhile alternative to Kelly Olinick in niche situations.

That is the scenario in which I could see him getting, yeah, you know, 10, 11, 12 minutes per day. I'm going to side with Mike because I want him to be right. And I don't know if he even, if he even believes what he just said. But if he does, I want him to be right. I'll take the over too. He would have had to make significant progress. Again, as a defender, he would have had to not see.

He would have to be in a position in which you would not in outright. liability. By liability, we're talking about teams just constantly targeting him again and again and again in space, which teams will do if he's, if you can't, if he can't defend in space. Yeah. Just the way I see him functioned, if he's going to earn those minutes, he's also got to be, again, on offense, he's got to be a reliable for a spacer. And he's got to have gotten something going as both the post-scorer and a playmaker. That's maybe a lot to ask. I too is surprised that he was upgraded. But, you know, obviously the, I mean, it's a number 15 roster spot. That should be noted, you know, to be the 15th man. I mean, you're still, you're still facing a battle to

establish yourself in the rotation. Yeah, but sometimes, you know, good for him, right? Yeah, sometimes, sometimes it goes right. Yeah, that was great. That was Christian Wood a couple years ago. Absolutely. So not to say that Garza is Christian Wood, but in terms of getting your foot in the door and then maybe you can make something happen and impress the right people. So I don't know. I would take the over on seven and a half, mainly because I think even though injuries are a cheap way to answer the question, it is a valid consideration.

You know, somebody could get hurt and then Garza is thrust into that role. Or like Mike said, his skills that he needs to translate in order to be effective actually do translate. And in that case, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to find him enough minutes on the floor to maybe get to seven, eight minutes per game. And in that case, I think the over is a relatively safe bet. I'm good on that if you guys want to move on. That's real. Yeah, absolutely.

All right. Mike, you're up first. This pertains to Cade Cunningham's points per game. And the money line is set at 17.5. You know, it's a difficult question because I would like to say over. But that's a lot to ask from a rookie.

I mean, again, we can look back at, I mean, I'll just do a quick run for the stats here. if you're looking at, if you're looking at rookies in recent years, who have averaged more than 17 points. And of course, we like to think about Kate as, you know, this is the dude.

And I mean, Anthony Edwards did it last year on bad efficiency. But you look beyond that. I mean, it just doesn't really happen all that often. And also, Kate isn't kind of like a straight line player who is going to say, oh, well, I have the ball and I'm just going to attack your rookies in recent years, and just in general, who are guys who are going to be. be able to take the ball and both score with it in play make with it. I mean, you got John Morantz in his rookie season was actually pretty darned impressive, decent efficiency, 18 points per game,

seven, you know, offers a seven assists. But I know Kate is built as a super NBA ready prospect. So part of me is, I'm going kind of like 60, 40. The 60 part of me is saying, you know, maybe 15, 16 points a game with a healthy number of assists. You know, the 40 is like maybe you'll take off an average like 17, 18, 19 points per game. But I'm going to have to reluctantly go with the under just because it's a lot to ask. All right, Tommy. Got to argue the opposite. Okay.

So I guess in this situation, I think the biggest threat to Cades points per game or hitting this number is probably just Jeremy Grant and maybe if they want to split the ball handling duties a little bit more than we'd like. If Killian has the ball in his hands a lot and he's not. And Cade isn't maybe aggressively moving off the ball. I don't know why I'm arguing like this. I have to argue high. So, yeah, let's say that those are not issues.

So Cade gets the ball straight away. He, that's, it's tough because I don't expect him to get a lot. I expect it to be something he has to build up after starting slow at the start of the year. Yeah, so the assumption is Cade gets the rule that we all want to see him get early on. He gets plenty of minutes, plenty of usage, and he shoots the ball very, very well off of pull-ups. This is also contingent to me on him being able to break down guys on the perimeter. He showed a nice array of dribble moves on the perimeter, but he wasn't really using them to get inside very much. He will have better options at the five this year, certainly.

He's going to be able to, he'll have Kelly Olinick. He will have Isaiah Stewart. it and both of those guys will hopefully be able to space the floor. So my hope is that Cave will be able to take advantage of that and get into the pains where he'll either be able to finish with strength or post up because we like to see, we saw him do quite a bit of that at Oklahoma State. But yeah, if they choose to run everything through him straight away, I could see him getting up there and getting to that mark to the above was at 17 and a half.

That's how I envision that happening. Maybe Killian Hayes, they choose to bring him off the bench, so there's not a ton of overlap with him. And if that is the case, I think you get a lot of the ball handling given to Cade for the starting lineup. So if that's going to happen, his usage just has to be there. That's the biggest contingency, obviously. So if Cade can get a lot of run with the ball, they're going to be.

give him a lot of responsibility early. I can see him hitting that number. Yeah, I'm optimistic about his usage. And because I'm so optimistic about it, I'm going to go ahead and take the over. I think that you're going to see a more aggressive, you know, improved driving to the basket type of player in Cade, as well as I mentioned this in a prior episode.

I think he's going to see some post touches as well because I think the coaches are going to figure out that when he's mismatched on a smaller guard and he's got his back to the basket, you may as well feed him and he'll draw a foul. and he'll be able to just, I don't know, hook it over a guy. So I see a lot of opportunities for him to score. I see more talented teammates than he ever dreamed of having in college.

And so I think the game will open up a little bit for him. And if they give him the ball, I don't really see a reason why 17, 18 points per game is an unattainable number. So I'll take the over, not just because I want it to be the case, but because I think it makes conceivable sense for him to average those numbers. So that's Cade. And we do have another points per game prop. I'll say, I mean, just to qualify what I said, so here are the factors I think you're going into that.

And like I said, for me, it was really a 60-40 thing. So number one, that it's really a lot to ask for a player at average, like 17 and a half while still putting up a lot of assists in his rookie season, since usually it's an either-or for the few players who end up really above that threshold, like Luca, a look up a lot of points and a lot of assists, for example. But, you know, that's Luca. that's what you're hoping for from Cade. But also, I think that this continues to be a developmental season for the Pistons, and they are going to want to spread the ball around to a certain degree.

You're going to want to get touches for Sadiq, obviously. You're going to want to get touches for Diallo. You're going to want to get, of course, Grant's going to get them, period. You're going to want to get them for Hayes. You've got Olinick in there. He's going to get his touches, not about development. He's just, he's there. He's going to be part of the offense.

Isaiah Stewart's there. this isn't a situation in which like if kate had come in last year i think it would have been quite a bit different but if he turns out to be that good and he he does and he's ready to be that that heliocentric creator then yeah it's definitely not out of the question i mean but if he's if he's if he's if he's justified that role then he's really taken off in that case sure maybe you see him average above 17 though like you know like 20 and eight would be an incredible rookie campaign. Just to clarify that.

But it's what we all hope for. That would be nuts. Yeah. So that's what we're going to call for this episode. I'm actually adding this message in post-production because this episode turned out to be about 100 minutes long when we were finished recording. So we decided to split it into a two-parter.

Next part, we'll be posted about a day after this one. So as always, folks, thank you all for listening. We'll catch you next time.