Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 65: Early preseason takeaways

Episode Date: October 10, 2021

This episode discusses takeaways from the first preseason game: the Canadian trio, Saddiq Bey's progression, and so on.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back, everybody to driving to the baskets, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike here with Dante and Tommy, as usual. Fellas, what's new with you? Pistons basketball is new. That's what's new. We got to watch. So now we get to actually get takeaways from an actual game. It's crazy.

This is true. I think that the primary takeaway is just the enormous role we're going to see Rodney McGruder play this year as the team starting shooting guard. I'm excited. things without making that joke. Yeah. There we go. There we go.

Indeed. Yeah. All right. So let's just get right into it. Of course, first preseason game. We're recording this on Saturday, the 9th, I guess. Yes, that's the correct date.

So first preseason game was on Wednesday. We had to cope with the unthinkable cruelty of not being given Pistons basketball for like six months. And then having to wait another five days for the next. preseason game. So I'd like to talk to whoever made that decision. He's very mean. Whatever the case, of course, the first game did not feature Kate Cunningham or Killian Hayes or Frank Jackson. So let's just launch straight into our takeaways from the game. Now, I know Dante, you had a very very patriotic takeaway.

Absolutely. This game. I absolutely did. And I didn't expect to. That's what's funny. I didn't expect to. I thought when the game first started. My takeaway was going to be something about Sadiq Bay because he looked really good, but by the time, you know, the buzzer sounded, what I took away was that I was very impressed with the Canadians. So specifically Kelly Olinic, Corey Joseph and Trey Lyles, which is, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, that's not typically the group of players that I would praise, but I'll start with Olinic. So I thought that the difference between having Kelly Olinic out there versus having Mason Plumley out there is night and day.

I never really thought Plumley was a good player. And much like probably 99.9% of people who watch basketball, I just think the age of the traditional center is dying. I think that if you can't space the floor, you better be a lead in one, two, or three other areas to really show your worth on the court. And Plumley wasn't a particularly good scorer, rebounder, defender. He could kind of pass a little bit, I guess.

but as Mike duly noted and made a very good point in saying that Plumley's creation was really only valuable on a team that lacked creation options. So those little bounce passes that he would do, yeah, maybe they were impressive on a team with no passers. But as we sort of have built the roster up a little bit and we've got guys who can make a play, it became unnecessary. So I'll trade that minimal amount of passing ability off for a guy like Kelly Olinick who can space the floor, who can put the ball on the ground and go. You know, there were a couple times where he showed a lot of athleticism, almost like he's a power forward in a center's body, which I guess, you know, he kind of is. And I think he adds a level of dynamism, is that a word, a dynamic to the offense that it just didn't have with Plumley. So I'm really, really looking forward to seeing how Alinic works with some of our better players throughout the season. And Corey Joseph got my Cory Joseph jerseys behind me.

He was really good, too. I thought he looked better than Sabin. And a lot of that comes from watching. these games with a critical eye now wanting to win. You know, I was pretty pissed with Corey Joseph last year because he was playing above his skill level and we wanted to lose games and he was impeding that. But now that I personally want to win, right, to see the Pistons pursue being competitive, I thought Corey showed that he's a pretty good floor general with the second unit. And that unit under his wing or under his leadership, I think can be a very good one again. And then

as for Trey Lyos, I'll leave it at that with him. He was pretty good. I don't want to be two results oriented. I thought that even if he didn't make, I think he was two for two from three. And even if he didn't make those, I thought he showed a very good ability to be a relocator on the perimeter. Three for three, I think.

Three for three. He made three threes. There you go. Three for three with three threes. That's pretty good. And that's a lot of three. So he relocated on the perimeter very, very well. He got himself open.

He was a smooth passer. set smooth screens and just was a cog in the offense that was running very, very well. So if those three Canadians can keep up that level of play for even the majority of the season, I think we're once again looking at a very talented bench unit that, why can't they lead the league in scoring again? I'm sure they could. You took an already good bench unit and you made them even better. So, oh, Canada.

Okay, then. Yeah. I think Lyles is pretty much just around to play secondary four-spacer. like Olinick I thought pretty much like Kelly Olinick

here's the thing he'll do he's best been used intentionally like with intent put it that way he's good at beating slower centers off the dribble for example

he's good at finding and exploiting mismatches in the low post and you've got to use him in the way

that most is going to most accentuate his strength and as especially to compensate for what are some weaknesses on the defensive end. So I think basically, I mean, I think all of us agree that Stewart's going to start. And I think, you know, Olinic will get a mix there between power forward and center minutes.

It was the first game. I didn't see anything that really surprised me. Hopefully he carries over more from what we saw with him on the rockets than what we saw with him with the heat and Celtics, where he was just pretty much an average role player off the bench. And, yeah, Joseph, yeah, I mean, I certainly last season, despite my irritation of how well he was playing, it grew to respect Corey Joseph for, you know, it was just the steadiness and the veteran presence he provides, of course. Yeah, he did drastically up his career baseline. Yeah. Tommy, what do you think? For me, this was, I didn't know what to expect from Kelly Olinick versus Isaiah Stewart, but truthfully, I came away a little bit, maybe not disappointed, because. To be completely honest, Isaiah Stewart didn't have a very good game.

His impact wasn't really felt. He seemed to step slow. He wasn't jumping well. And I think a significant part of that was the fact that he was in a boot for several weeks. And I think he only recently got back into five-on-five in full-contact basketball. So I'm going to attribute that to Rust, but it's something to keep an eye on. And then conversely, I was just thoroughly impressed by Kelly Olinick. The second half of the first quarter where we had that score,

surge against the spurs. I attribute that to Kelly Olenick and the spacing that he provided. The offense and the floor really just opened up when he came out there. And it was really impressive, honestly. I was just really happy with it because I've always kind of talked about how I really like the Miami Heat drive and kick offense. And on this first game where our two primary creators, Killian Hayes and Cade Cunningham, aren't out there.

The offense has to be, the ball has to be shared by these other guys. And they're really delivered. You know, they've moved the ball very well. They were driving and attacking, kicking out. They were driving under the hoop and then swinging it out to the perimeter. I was really impressed by that. It wasn't like a set offense that was being run. It was more like a concept of driving kick.

And I really appreciate that. It's harder to predict. It's much more difficult to defend. And it gives me faith that even if Cade Cunningham and Killian Hayes aren't having their best nights, we're okay. I mean, Corey Joseph, he really was like an engine for that second unit. I'm happy that they didn't opt to start him in the place of Killing Hayes because Casey even made a point of, you know, we want to preserve this first unit and the second unit. And I'm really happy that we got to see some chemistry between those two. So that was my main takeaway.

I wasn't expecting it. I was not expecting them to play that well as a team, essentially, especially against the spurs who were very much about sharing the ball. And, you know, doing that against them, I think it just highlights that to me. There was really a very impressive performance from this team without their primary options. Yeah. Yeah. And let's just, this would have killed me to say six months ago, but I'll say it. Corey Joseph is a much better player than Saban Lee right now.

You know, Saban is still very much a work in progress. And as much as I love when he goes up for those posters, and I know he's going to get a few, maybe more than a few over the course of his career. And I can appreciate that this is a player that we invested in and have self-developed. you know, I'm rooting for him, but in the interest of winning games, I don't think it's particularly close, not in the eye test, not an actual numerical production, nothing. Corey really is an engine. That's a great word Tommy to use.

He's an engine for that second unit. Not only can he sort of orchestrate the offense, but he can also create his own shot as well. And Sabin, unfortunately, it's just not reliable in that capacity right now. So I would say Sabin is pretty firmly your point guard three right now. Maybe spend some time in the G League. I don't know. But I like how the bench unit is headed with Corey sort of orchestrating everything as I put it.

And then, yeah, the driving kick is just really good. With a guy like Olinic too, who you know that there's a variety of things that he could do when he catches it, when he catches a kickout, right? He can put the ball on the floor and blow by you if you're a slower-footed bigger player or he could just pop one in your face. So I like the new dynamic and we're able to build upon what was already a good bench unit. Yeah, the Corey Joseph, I mean, until we see what Killian Hayes and Kate Cunningham can do, right now is the most established ball handler on the team. Oh, definitely. I mean, yeah, he's, he's no slouch. I mean, he's, like, he's struggled with, you know, with efficiency throughout most of his career.

And that didn't happen last year with the Pistons. And we'll see if that keeps up. but he provides a sort of steadiness that I think is important to the team, even notwithstanding his contributions as just as a veteran, kind of a core guy. So, yeah, I appreciate that he's that he's around. I was satisfied with the signing when it happens. And, yeah, good for him.

Saban, I think, is just, is not ready for the NBA. He's definitely the ability to shoot reliably from the perimeter away from being. being an NBA player, that's most likely what dropped him into the second round in the first place, because if you had a guy in college who's, you know, even though he played three, I don't remember, it was three or four years of Vanderbilt. I think it was three. And was it Vanderbilt. Sorry, my memory is in the greatest. Yeah, it was Vanderbilt. I believe it was three years. It was Vanderbilt. So, yeah, if you had a guy who was as athletic as he is and as good to get into the line, who can also shoot, you know, is a decent playmaker for others. That's probably a late first round.

kind of guy. I would say that's maybe a top 20 pick. Maybe. I'm not sure. Reliable three points shot. He's pretty yeah. But yeah, it's the one in that game and it looked rough. He's a ways away. He's a ways away. Yeah, he wasn't summer league also though he had that those couple of good games. I mean, he has to play on the ball. He plays a very ball dominant style and you don't want that in the NBA anymore unless it's an extremely good player, which saving Lee, of course, is not. But I think it's a four-down conclusion that he's going to end up in the G-League. I wouldn't say his point guard three.

I'd say he's between, I mean, if we're just talking primary handlers and Saban has to be the primary handler, if he's on the floor, then he's behind Cunningham, Hayes, and Joseph basically making point. As a ball handler, yeah. But say on the depth chart, if you just do a traditional one, two, three, and Killian is your 1A. You know, I would say Corey's then your 1B and Saban is your 1C. And do you really need a 1C active on game days? Probably not. So, yeah. Oh, who knows?

I mean, the nice thing right now is that the tribe will be playing like 20 minutes away. So that's good. He's actually in a good spot because, well, just really quickly, he's in a good spot where he is at because we don't need him to play against the best of the best. And his biggest advantage is that he's more athletic than a lot of guys in the NBA. So if he's third string, he's probably going to have a lot more in the way of strength than hops than the guys he's going against. And that's when he's going to have the best shot of throwing down a poster dunk on somebody. let the three-point shot come along and then when he does get minutes he can go out there and just try to dunk on somebody in print posters that's all we need from him right now that's a good point no that's a good point let's just develop that jump shot and then we'll see where he goes from there yeah there's no worry i've got a good opinion of a ceiling i mean i've said in the past that you could well you know on on seconds you know on seconds or on second reflection i'll put it that way this may not be the greatest idea i've said in the past that you know that if he does develop that shot, he can play off the ball.

And if he wants to, then he's a guy. If Kiley has doesn't work out, you can see if we play next to K'd, if you're mining up K to the two. But, you know, in retrospect, I think if Kade does pan out how people hope, you want to put him on the floor at point guard next to a lot of other big guys so that you can, you know, so you have that size mismatch. Whatever the case, yeah, Sabin is just an example of how important it is to be able to play off the ball.

Like even if the guy would have a really good time at getting to the rim and he's decent at that. I mean, just the ability to play off the ball is too important so that you don't have to lock your offense into one guy being on the ball at the same, you know, really all the time in order to be useful. So, yeah, I think it was more or less what we expect from saving, just still has some development to do. So other takeaways. Yeah, who's nice. Yeah, other takeaways. I mean, I know, I know Dante, you're a big fan of Sadiq Bay.

Do we get to talk about Sadiq right now? Go for it. Yeah, I mean, if you don't, go ahead. Well, no, I already gave my takeaway. Somebody give their Sadiq Bay as amazing takeaway, and it's not going to be me this time. I'll just sit back and enjoy. Yeah, go on. We saw Sadiq practicing this mid-range turnaround in Summer League, and it didn't fall then.

A lot of his shots didn't fall. Then I kind of attributed to maybe some fatigue from going from the regular season to USA basketball and then Summer League, and he didn't really have an extended break. he came in and he shot that turnaround fade away really well. And I don't know, let's say 55% on mid-range from that. That's still 1.1 points per game or points per possession. That's a decent shot. If Sadiq can knock that down reliably, it's useful.

And in that game, he made it useful. He's expanding his arsenal, and that's exactly what we wanted to see from him. I was really excited when I saw that shot in Summer League because, one, obviously, you want a guy to have more in his bag than as opposed to just being a one-trick bone. So, Sadiq, I think he did actually have one nice, strong finish in that game. I think he actually did throw down a dunk. But for the most part, Sadiq is not the kind of guy who gets to the rim a lot. So for him to get there and then establish position kind of six, seven, eight feet away from the rim,

and then knock down that turnaround, that can be a legitimate option for him. He just needs to hit a certain level of efficiency. I highly doubt that it's going to be a better shot than his three ball, but it's something. And if he doesn't have options on the perimeter to kick out to, then he's not stuck. You know, he's not just going to get stopped with the ball in his hand. So I was really happy from what I saw from Sadiq in that game. Yeah, it's no shot is ever going to be better than a catch-and-shoots Sadie Kv Bay three-ball. But this is like I've always said regarding Sadiq.

He's never going to be a player who gets to the rim at will. but when you're stopped along the way to the basket, right, if he develops that turnaround jumper and he creates the requisite space needed to be able to hit that jumper at a relatively high percentage, that is so invaluable to the offense because you no longer know that if you hold Sadiq up and he's not able to get to the rim,

he's instantly going to bail out on trying to score, you know? And the way to compensate for not being an athletic freak who can just get to the rim at will also is by playing smart. And one of the ways that Sadiq is playing Spartan, he's showing this now game after game after game, is he can leverage his size. He can leverage his basketball IQ, and he can get himself into positions to create easy baskets. So if he can seal somebody off, you know, and he creates enough space to drain that jumper, that turnaround, it's such a good tool. It really, really is. So I'm, it's, we want to see Sadiq expand his arsenal and he has, but there's something about that shot in particular.

because what he did with that shot that you were just talking about, Tommy, is that he took a weakness of his, and he managed to work around it so that he can still be an effective player. It's so encouraging. You know, it's so encouraging. So let's see where he builds from there to become even better. I've talked about this in the past, you know, to play devil's advocate, so to speak. That's a really difficult shot to make efficient.

You know, a turnaround jumper of any kind is going to be difficult to make efficient. So it's not just the question of having it. It is the ability to do so. productively to make it. And on a consistent basis. On a consistent basis to make it not only a good shot, but a better shot than, you know, to justify him taking it rather than passing the ball up to somebody else. So we'll see.

I'm not quite as confident in his mid-and-like, it's unfortunate, basically, if you're a secondary contribution is going to be a mid-range shot because that's very difficult to make worthwhile for anybody. It's nice to see him more aggressive, and I imagine he'll get a fairly, long leash as far as trying new things, at least early on in the season. And we'll see how it goes. He's always going to be throughout his NBA career. He's going to be fighting a battle against, as far as determining his ceiling,

is going to be fighting a battle against his really poor first step and just generally mediocre half-court foot speed. But as I've said in the past, I'd be satisfied with him just as a high volume three-point shooter on high percentage plus good defense. And, you know, maybe maybe catching the cut into the basket. whatever else and in high IQ. So I don't think, I don't have the expectation that he will substantively improve. If he doesn't, I think he's still a decent starter for a good team.

And that's fine with me. Yeah, I'm just trying to pull up a quote right now. I don't know if either of you guys saw, I don't have the exact one here. But you guys see the quote from Dwayne Casey about Sadiq Bay and the leash that he has? No, which one? Casey said that Sadiq is going to be allowed, I'm paraphrasing here, but he's going to be allowed to go for 30 or 40 over the course of the season. So Dante, I thought you would be throwing a party, honestly. He's going to be allowed to go for 30 or 40, what points?

What are we talking? Like, what is he referring to? That he could just keep shooting. He has the green light. Yep. Well, but that's, but why not? You know what I mean? Why isn't that the real assumption?

That's what I know it's funny, but if you look at last season in a vacuum, Jeremy Grant was the best player, and then Sadiq Bay was the second best player as a rookie. He was. So why you wouldn't give someone the green light who's shown such an ability to hit the three, difficult threes, mind you, out of very, very, very efficient percentage. And he's shown the requisite initiative to go ahead and try to expand his game from what's already a very solid base of skills. Why not? Why not give him the green light?

Who's going to go put up 40 points, Killian? no right Sadiq has shown the ability to do it against very good teams he's dropped a couple 30 bombs already as he gets bigger as he gets stronger as he adds more tools to his arsenal I don't see any reason why he can't be that

guy and it's it's I don't know you guys always give me pushback on it and I can appreciate the back and forth but I think you're underselling his potential because athletic ceiling is certainly a factor to consider Mike you're absolutely right that's something he's going to be fighting against his whole career but some

I can't stress this enough. Someone with a high basketball IQ who's clever and who finds ways to work around their shortcomings can absolutely become a 20 points per game score. I think he could achieve that mark this season. I really do. That's a lot to ask. 20 points per game. That's a small population of players to do that.

I also just want to note, he actually didn't do too well on difficult threes last season. It was largely just open catch and shoots. Yeah. Like, yeah, when you got his defender pretty tight, he just in the first place he took very very few of those and 34 and a half percent is not bad but and we're talking two to feet away two to four feet away for his defender rather for the most part his percentage came from from taking and this this was the majority of his threes were just wide open that's a very useful skill to have shooting 41% on on wide open catch and shoots but i think ultimately if i had to pick between him maybe generating some very tertiary creation or being able to take more difficult

threes off the move around screens and whatnot. I'd go with the latter. I think that's just going to be more to his strengths. But 20 points per game, even like 16 points per game is a lot to ask. Well, what are you having 14 and a half? What was it? I don't remember what it was, but 20 points per game. I mean, not many guys in the NBA can do that.

I don't know. I think Prime Sidig Bay can be a much better player than a lot of people give them credit for. I really do. And if in season two, his coach is already saying that he's got the green light, it's, it's Casey. It is Casey, but the path, he's not saying that about, you know, he's not coming out and being like, oh, Killian's going to go for 30, 40 because he knows that's not true.

He knows that's true. I have a better chance to go in for 40 than Killian does. I don't think that's true. But, yeah, it's really bad. Fair enough. I hope you guys get my point. And my point is that when he's in his prime, which he has the path to get to it. He's being given all of the leeway to really improve as a player.

You know, he could be something. He really could be. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, and I have a take on this that kind of addresses both of you guys because, Mike, I know that you don't like the mid-range because it's not an efficient shot. And I understand that. But every team takes mid-range shots. And part of the reason I've made this argument in the past, your primary ball

handlers should be taking mid-range. You should be a three-level score. They're even coming up with the new term of four-level score, are those guys who can take like the deep three because that's another level of defense that the opposition has to account for. But that's kind of what when you talk about what Sadiq can be, if you want him to be a volume score,

like you can say primary ballhandlers, but maybe you can expand that out to just volume scores. And if Sadiq Bay is going to be a guy who's going to go for like upwards of 18 points per game at some point in his career, he should be a guy who can do more than just shoot threes. You know, it's all going to come down to the, percentage that he can shoot it at. Like he said, Mike, he's not doing all that well on these more difficult threes. He was a lot better on catch and shoot. And that is like the definition of a

role player three and D. But if Sadiq is looking to expand, if he is looking to be a more potent offensive force, it is important for him to expand his offensive game. So that is something to look for. He's in year two. It's hard to put a ceiling on him right now. He's trying to add more. So that's just going to be something that we keep an eye on. Yeah. Well, those improvements are threefold, right? If we look at it as an equation, what are the three things you need to improve as a player? You need talent. You need work ethic and you need opportunity.

We know Sadiq's got the talent, right? He was a top 20 pick, highly lauded, came in and was an incredible shooter right off the rip. Okay, maybe incredible is a stretch, very good shooter right off the rip. He's obviously got the work ethic. There was a Keith Langley's article that just came out. I was reading it before we started recording, actually. He said something like Sadiq took five hours off between the end of the season and then starting to train again. it was something crazy like that.

He's been busting his butt clearly all through the off season. And you're seeing this pay dividends by his willingness to be assertive in these games. And then third, does he have the opportunity? Well, that Casey quote is case in point. I understand that he can be a little bit, a little bit of a fluff piece machine. I understand that. But he has the opportunity. He very clearly does.

And he's got the support of the coaching staff. He's got the support of the other players. And he's going to be empowered to make these strides in his game. So the recipes and the elements for this equation are all there. It just depends on, you know, how he finishes this out, what he does to truly become an improved score. And I love the term, Tommy, four level score because imagine Sadiq just bombing threes from the logo. He already did once. He already did.

So why not start doing that on a consistent basis, right? I would say, Tommy, in response to what you said about players should have the mid-range game, yeah, it's nice to have. Most players just don't take a lot of shots from there because it's not worth. while the efficiency baseline in the NBA and the spacing and analytics era is so high that it's often just not worth taking those shots. And in the shots that are taken for midrange are generally fall into three categories. Number one, a wait and a shot clock. It's just, you know, you have to make something out of nothing. Star players who are actually able to make it efficient are not many of those. Or just star players who are just taking a shot because they're one of the

creators and, you know, they just end up taking the shot. So it's real nice to have, but you've got some elite players who don't bother because it's just not worthwhile. Of course, yeah, a lot of it, I mean, you look at certain players who are taking mid-range offense. Russell Westbrook, of course, wet the league in it shockingly. Well, he's not who I'm advocating for. Yeah, I know. I know he's not your advocating, but I'm saying when you're looking at teams do do attempted, it's true. But there just aren't that. any guys who do, and it's just not good offense. So my point is that...

But unless I'm misconstruing Tommy, Tommy, aren't you saying it's not necessarily taking the shot? It's the threat of the shot. It's how the defense has to guard you knowing that you can conceivably make that shot. Yeah, if you're left open. That's exactly what I was about to say. Yeah. In any event, though, yeah, we're...

I think we've, if you guys don't mind, we've already spent quite a bit of time talking about Sadiq Bay. We're near about a half hour here. I could spend a few more hours. Yeah, I know you could. We can move off. Yeah, why don't we move on to further takeaways? You've got Josh Jackson, of course, who came in,

and I would never take anything away from this game based on Josh Jackson, because we know if he gets hot, he gets hot. Oh, yeah. And he got hot and stopped passing the ball, which, you know, whatever. It's a free season game. I don't care, of course. The second I saw him go for that kind of pull-up sidestep two-pointer from just inside. at the three point line.

Yeah, I was like, I was like, okay, so not much has changed. And yeah, in any case, I mean, Josh has kind of like an uphill battle. I feel like in the rotation right now, you've got, whether it's Kate or Killian playing at the two, and you've got Sadiq Bay, who's the presumptive starter at the three. He'll be going up against Hamadou. We all know that the organization is pretty high on Hamadu, based at least on what Troy Weaver has said. Frank Jackson has to be in the second unit.

Yeah, Frank Jackson. Yeah, Frank Jackson will be in there, assuming he can come in a replicated last season's performance. That's just a very, it's very valuable to have a guy who can, who can come around screens and around, and take handoffs or whatever else, just shoot threes on the move at high percentage. So, yeah, I'd say Josh has an uphill battle to make the rotation.

And, you know, if he can make the threes, he was, he made a couple of threes off the move in that game. And sure, if he now has that skill to do that consistently, then he gives himself a better shot. But consistency and the ability to shoot at, a decent, reliable percentage, reliably shoot at a decent percentage on a consistent basis from the perimeter. I mean, that is, that is the most important thing for him. And I've said it in the past, if he can, if he can shoot threes reliably, then what you do, you don't let him handle the

ball. You just say, well, we're going to have you shoot threes. We're going to have you catch the ball off the move and attack the baskets. We're going to have to be caught to the basket, catch lobs and run in transition. And that's a valuable player. He's highly athletic. But, but him becoming a reliable three-point shooter would be a huge, you know, like that'd be a big step for him since that's been a career-long struggle. Yeah. And now a quick word from our sponsors. With football right around the corner, it's time to get in on the action with Draft King's

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only, minimum $5 deposit and $1 wager required. One per customer, restrictions apply. See draftkings.com slash sportsbook for details. If you have a gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or in Indiana, 1-800-9 with it. Who do you think comes out of the rotation for Frank Jackson? Because I think he has to come back in. I think just based on last season, he proved too valuable. You think it's a lot of maybe a goal of tape, but probably Rodney McGruder. Oh, no. This is the thing that they tried to do. That's quite a claim. Casey wanted to keep the second unit intact. I think that what we saw is actually pretty accurate. They put Saban Lee and Rodney Magruder in the starting lineup in the place of Kate and Killian so that they could keep that second unit together. So I think that what we saw on,

was it Wednesday, I think that is actually fairly close to what we're going to see. I think Frank Jackson slots in for one of those guys. Casey said 10-man rotation. One of those guys drops out. Liles has size, but I think he showed more utility in that game. But Josh Jackson has more upside and I think truthfully people just like him more it's like a Detroiter versus a guy who says he doesn't like Detroit it's people want it to be one guy for sure but who do you think if you had to call it I mean by by Monday we'll probably know Frank because I think Frank Jackson is supposed to come back by Monday who do you think would come out well if the premise is that Frank absolutely has to be in the rotation which in my opinion I think it does yeah oh absolutely

I absolutely agree but but my issue is so who would play the four then, right? Because if you bump Lyles out of the rotation, Jeremy and Kelly Olinick will play, I think, significant amount of minutes at the four. You'll see Sadiq place some minutes at the four. I think Lyles is just going to be a bench guy, just an end of the bench guy who plays some third string.

No, I just meant on the bench unit in particular. Like if we got out a five-man lineup and we got a slot Frank in there, it's a good question because I liked what I saw on Wednesday, but Frank absolutely has to play. I don't know if Liles is the odd man out, but Tommy, I get what you're going for with Josh having, you know, higher upside. And I don't think Josh will, you know, be bumped out of the rotation.

But if it was up to me, I would probably rather have Trey Liles playing within himself, relocating on the perimeter and just hitting his open threes, rather than watching Josh not pass the ball for the entire season. I would. That's me personally. I would think that. I would say, that's sorry.

No, no, go ahead. I would say a bigger question is, I mean, you're looking at what's, kind of, I don't know if you want to call it deep because we're trying to see which of these guys are going to be a long-term NBA players, but you've got a fairly deep pool on the wing between, you know, at least the shooting guard in small forward positions, rather. Between Bay, of course, you've got Cade and you've got Cillian Hayes who are going to be spending time at shooting guard, of course. Who knows, maybe you'll see Cade place some minutes up to small forward. I don't know. Who knows?

Whatever the case. You've got. Frank Jackson, you have Josh Jackson, you have Mohammed O'Dello. And so it's, I think it's a question of who's going to fall out. And I'm from amongst that group, and it might just come down to Josh, to Jackson and Diallo. Of course, this is depending upon injuries and whatever else. But I think it could come down to those two. And I just think, again, if you can shove Josh Jackson,

and into that role if he becomes a good shooter and you can just say, well, this is the role you're going to play. And then Josh is willing to do that. And you can minimize the impact of his poor decision making, his awful court vision and passing and just as bad overall offensive IQ. Then fine, he's got a space as a rotation player on the NBA, absolutely. But he's got a lot to prove before he can do that. Yeah. As far as... You just made my argument for me. Yeah. It's just you can't teach... I think at this point it's like you can't teach Josh Jackson and how to, I don't think you can teach basketball IQ in general. No.

And what is this year five he's going into? This is year five. This is year five he's going into. Yeah. Well, how tough is it to rewire what he's presumably been operating with in his brain for his entire basketball career, right? Like Josh sort of is what he is. And if this environment that Weaver and Casey created last season where it's very much a,

you know, a team mentality and play within yourself and just be a part of a team, if that didn't iron this out of him, I'm not sure why this year would be any difference. So my level of optimism, that Josh will ever become like a just a cog in the offense, you know, someone who plays within himself and doesn't try to take over every time he hits two shots in a row is zero. I don't think he's ever going to grow out of that.

I don't know. He's got to have that, the off ball utility as well. Last season he played so much. Oh, he has to. Yeah, because the Pistons had very little in the way of, in the way of anybody who great offense. And, but the problem is last season,

not only did he have all the aforementioned flaws, but he, I mean, he was just, he was a high volume low efficiency score on a bad team, and you just can't work out that way. So, yeah, what I've, just what I went over, the 3-D guy is, is I think the only way he's going to stay in the league. I don't think he's ever going to be the kind of player he wants to be that sort of takeover score who plays with the ball. And I wonder if he knows that that's not a viable, really viable way for him to play in the NBA.

just, you know, ball in hand to attack the basket, shoot off the dribble score. Anyway, so we saw Diallo as well, who came in and played kind of more of a, less of a role. I mean, I think he's just not willing to look for his own shot as much as Jackson is. I really like Diallo. I'd like to see him attempt more three so we can see where he is at that point. But man, even if we're talking about in the context of Josh Jackson, Dielo, So athletic. He's so athletic. I know there was, so they do a survey from the week's general managers every year. And Dioa actually got at least one vote. He was, he was on the list.

And I don't know, who knows, maybe this is Weaver, but whatever the case, he got, he was on the list for most athletic player in the NBA. And, you know, that should come as no surprise to anybody who's watching play. I mean, the guy is an incredible athlete. Yeah, oh, he's almost superhuman. It's crazy. I agree. I think he's more. athletic than Josh Jackson using. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So. So, yeah, I've been on record. I think Homadu could be a really good player in the NBA if you can get that three-point shot under control. And, but I mean, he kind of just came out there and floated a bit. That's partially probably just the nature of

a preseason game. But I don't really even know where I was going with this. It's just it was, it was fun to see him out in the floor. You were seeing things that you would like to see him do, right? I mean, just my point is there was no real takeaway. I was actually really happy with what we saw from Homody. I think he's probably the biggest beneficiary compared to last season of playing next to Kelly O'Linnick. He was getting to the rim a lot more easily with that open space there. And I don't watch him as closely as you do because I'm not the Homadu stand of the three of us. But when he did see him, he was attacking the basket.

and he had far more in the way of open lanes to get to the rim. And that's encouraging because that's exactly what you. That's exactly what Hamidu needs right now to make the most of his probably best skill, which is that athleticism. But I'm with him, like, if he could shoot threes and if he had decent spacing around him, like, he could, he could expand his game so much. He just needs to enable himself by getting the defense to close out more honestly, because how do you stop a guy who's more athletic than you?

You got to give, especially if he can't shoot, you just need to give him some space because you need to give yourself that extra moment to stay in front of him because when he takes off, like he is a rocket, he has a fantastic first step. We all know this. But right now he's got the team around him, the roster around him with that second unit, I think it's really going to benefit his game this year. I expect a lot more hominue dunks this season. That's going to be something to keep.

an eye on. But absolutely, we just, I know we all want to see what he can do in terms of the three ball. They were talking about it in some of these preseason or training camp intermues. I think Hamidu even said he's like, I want to keep my three point percentage where it is because he finished the season with the Pistons at like 39 percent, but it was on like two attempts a game. Like some games he wasn't even trying that. I think he had a quarter of his makes in one game, that one game against the Hornets in which he scored, I think nearly 30 points. Right. And so he's aware of the problem. He knows what he needs to work on. It's, obviously the coaching staff is aware of it, but he is too.

So maybe that is something that he's going to continue to look for this season. But I was happy with what we saw from him because he definitely made the most of that extra spacing that was around him in the second unit. I hope he is the guy who sticks into the rotation. Just going back to the Josh Jackson thing, I think Josh Jackson is the one who naturally falls out, assuming the trail aisles can keep up the three-point shooting. I think that's his big edge. You know, you want that spacing. That's paramount for a second unit.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Hamadu Diallo. We just, I want to keep an eye on him, same as you all, and we'll see what he can do this season. Oh, for sure. And I'll say this, the only person who can stop Hamadu Diallo with a good three-point shot is Hamadu Diallo, you know, because he has such a fabulous first step that if you have to give him even a little bit of space, like you said, Tommy, he'll just beat you with the three. And then if you press up on him, he's just going to blow by you. You know, it's sort of a pick your poison type of situation with him if he could get that three point shot down.

So I would say that, Mike, I think you've said that he has the highest ceiling on the team. I don't know if you're not the highest ceiling, but he's one of the highest ceiling. One of the highest ceilings. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think so too. So what does he work on now? He works on keeping his three point percentage where it is. And that's not, it was on such low volume that you can't really say, oh, just repeat your performance from last year.

He has to substantially improve his three point shooting. And being that he is the beneficiary of all this extra. space now that Olinx out there, now that Liles is out there, he has to be even more assertive than he already is, recognize when he's got even a nanometer of space to go and just go. Because if he heads to the basket with assertiveness, no one's stopping him. So it's just a matter of how he not touch around the rim and finishing. But yeah, let's see how that three point percentage goes. But if he can improve that, it's things are looking good for him.

And I would definitely prefer him to Josh Jackson, like not even a question. 100%. Yeah, I did notice he was a little hesitant to take three. and that his release is still kind of slow. Even last season, he seemed to do a little bit better when he shot off the pull-up than when he shot off the catch-and-shoot. When he catches the ball at three-point line, he seems to be a little bit tentative, but hopefully that improves over the course of the season.

Maybe that's a confidence thing. He seems like a confident player, but he seems to perform a lot better when he's already in motion or in rhythm. And yeah, when he takes the catch-and-through shoot three, there's almost a moment of hesitancy, like a little bit of a hitch in a shot. but when he's like smooth and he just sort of transitions into a shot it looks a lot better. So I don't know if that's something that the coaching staff can work on him with. But maybe the key to unlocking his full potential.

Yeah. So one final for me, that takeaway, I think we've gone over almost everybody. Jeremy Grants, I don't think there was really much to, much to say about him. He pretty much like he did last season. We'll see going into the season itself if, you know, if he's made any improvements, I don't know if you guys have anything to say about him. I will say Luca Garza who came in late. The crowd went crazy.

I knew they were going to. I was like the second Garza checks in, this crowd is going to explode. And it was so nice to hear it on TV. It was awful. Yeah, everybody just loved that guy. Yeah. All right. Any further takeaways before we move on to user-submitted questions?

Well, I'll say this about Jeremy. And then I don't know if Tommy has anything to add to. it. But we sort of saw, and this is kind of what happened with Jeremy and the tail end of the season, was that he started off so hot in this game and then he disappeared for a little bit. And I had attributed that previously to tired legs or the fact that he has to take on this Titanic workload, but I'm hoping when you've got a Katie Cunningham, you know, who's also able to create offense out there. And the whole, shouldering the entire load is not on Jeremy Grant. I hope that he can remain consistent, you know, remain efficient all throughout the game. So,

then even though he's not maybe the only primary score anymore, maybe he can actually up his scoring in the presence of another creator because he's not going to disappear just from being tired and just from the other team zeroing in on him. I think that the inclusion of so many other threats, specifically Cade, is going to be so beneficial to Jeremy. So I'm really looking forward to see how the two of them cooperate. Yeah, that's definitely. That's one of the things that all of us are waiting on for sure. Having that kind of talent, seeing how this those duties for sure. I can't wait to see it. Can't wait for Cade Cunningham to get out on the floor. Going to be great.

We're only at this point 11 days away from opening night. So, all right, so we're going to move on to user submitted questions. We're pointing on making this a regular segment at the end of every show. If you'd like to submit questions, you can do so by Twitter. We're at To the BasketPod. Also, you can find us on the Detroit Pistons Discord server or message us through Reddit. So first question that was submitted was given the weird year referring to last season. And his injury should Killian get the full season before fans are ready to pass judgments. Tommy, you want to take this one or you want me to go?

You can go first. I got to get that. So should he be given a full season before the fans turn on him? I mean, it's a funny question because it doesn't really matter what the fans think, right? What matters is what Casey and Weaver thinks. And I'm on record saying that I think Killian has a long leash. I don't think it's because of sunk cost fallacy. I think it's because he was picked where he was because Weaver and Casey saw the potential in him.

I think that they believe that he has an upside. That's higher than anybody else who can play the one on the team, which I believe that as well. But it's a matter of putting it all together. So while I think that he's going to be given the full year by the front office or maybe at least up until the trade deadline to show something, I'm also cognizant of the fact that professional sports or results oriented. A lot of it is what have you done for me lately. And it is absolutely critical that Killian shows the ability to be an NBA player. And not only an NBA player, an effective NBA player, one who can build upon the foundation that he already has and improve and become a very good player. if he doesn't show that within, you know, the context of starting this year along a much more talented team that he had last season, I don't know. I don't know.

If he doesn't show something relatively soon, I'm pretty concerned. I think that there's something to being patient, but at the same time, we were patient with Seku, too. And yeah. So, I don't know. What do you think about me? Yeah. Yeah. See, I guess if the answer is, should we give him a first? full year? Yes, you should. Are we? No, I very much doubt it. There are expectations for this year, and I say that as somebody who's perfectly fine with being a garbage team again and getting another top five pick because I see some talent in this next draft. But we want to see what Killing can do. And last year was just such a massive disappointment, not even by rookie standards, like by NBA standards, not even by rookie standards. He was awful. And he didn't show much. The only thing that I saw that I kind of like from him was obviously the passing the defense.

The floater wasn't a terrible shot for him. Mike, I know you don't like that shot, but I think that if he's going to be a point guard, something he should have. And then the catch and shoot three. So I don't even know what they plan to do with him, honestly, because I think in the depth chart, Kate is listed as a shooting guard. And I know that you guys, I don't think any of us really want Killian Hayes to be the primary ball handler over Cade Cunningham for the full year. I think fairly quickly, we want that to be transitioned over to Cade.

But he has to be. There's just expectations. You know, if Killian is like Alonzo ball type, that's not the ideal fit because he's not athletic enough. So I just, I was thinking about this recently. I don't think that they're a good long-term fit. I don't know what the solution is there. But regardless, you need, even if you want to just trade him down the line,

let him boost his value, let him show that he is something, make the issue that there's, Killing Hayes is too good to be splitting the ball handling duties with K. With anybody. Like he needs to move on because it's not a good fit because he's too good, not because he's got awful. So maybe we need to be patient, but I don't think I'm going to be honestly.

I want to see what he can do. So I'll say that, I don't agree that, I don't agree with the characterization of his rookie season because you spent the first part of it just in this absolutely an utterly bizarre role that we've talked about in this show quite a few times, just basically having no defined role at all, like give the ball to Griffin and just stand around and do nothing.

And then he got injured. And then for much of his, the rest of the season after he returns, he was ramping up in his return from that injury. I'm not going to say he was a good player by any means. Even, you know, even after his return, the Pistons scored about 100 points for 100 possessions with Killian on the floor.

which would have ranked them worse than the thunder on the season. So the worst than the worst ranked offense, they weren't a great offense without him, but they were significantly better. So he came in with no NBA offseason. He had that issue, he had his injury and so on and so forth. So, yeah, I think that he should be given.

I think that this question is, you know, should he get the full of season before fans are ready to pass judgment? I think so. I think this is effective. his rookie season. I think he did come in with some, definitely with some issues as far as left-hand dominance and hesitants to actually drive to and finish at the rim. He did a terrible job in the restricted area. I think that, yeah, I think he should be given a full season. I really think this should be treated as his rookie season. Now, I also think that expectations should be tempered

in the context of Cade now being on a team, Cade profiling, you know, the hope is, you know, the hope is that he will be this sort of highly effective heliocentric ball handler. And in that context, Killing, who was brought on and was hoped he could be the point guard of the future now has a by default reduced role. So I think that that should be kept in mind. I agree with Tommy that you want to see him do well no matter, obviously you want to see him do well no matter what. I just think that if he does play well, the, I don't think he has a long-term future with the team. I put it this way.

The issue with Alonzo ball roll is that with he and Cade and Sadiq in the starting lineup, you just don't have much athleticism there. And it's nice to have guys who can jump high and move explosively off the ball. And Jeremy Grant would be the only one in the starting lineup. We can do that. But I would give him the whole year. It's possible he'll end up on the bench, not playing a ton of minutes. But I think you live with that and you pass final judgments maybe about halfway through his 2020,

to 2020 season. That's fair. Yeah, I'd say that's fair. Yeah. All right. And moving on to the next question, even if the team finds some success in the first half of the season that are on the play and race,

do you think Weaver would still be looking to trade players, obviously not the younger ones that can get him a first round pick? No. No. I think if the team is in the play and race, then it's in the best interest of the club to pursue winning. Maybe that's the jaded lions, Pistons, Leifes, Tigers fan in me,

but I'm just so sick of losing. And I don't think Weaver came here with the intent to lose as many games as possible. I think he sought to put a competent team on the floor last year that wouldn't be a total embarrassment every time they took the floor. And when it was clear that they were going to be one of the worst teams in the league, he embraced it. And that was for the better.

But I think the squad is significantly improved this year, especially with the spacing on the bench that we spent, you know, so long talking about in this episode alone. And if the team is good, edit into the trade deadline. You know, if they're competing for a play in spite, what sort of message does it send to the team to start shipping out all of the players with value, you know, that are over the age of 25 for draft picks?

That's sending the message to the club that you don't believe in them to do anything. And that's, in my opinion, bad for them. If they're winning games, if they're jelling, if they're cohesive, just let them go. Keep the squad together. Let them win as many games as possible because, honestly, that may be what's in the best long-term interest of the team. So I would say absolutely not. So I would say that it's a situation that's unlikely to come to pass for a couple of reasons.

Well, rather my answer would be no, but, well, let me expand. So if the Pistons are on the playing race, it means that probably you've got some of these veterans who are contributing. You're talking about, okay, you don't trade the young guys. And in that event, I don't think you break that up. I think you just go ahead with that and probably keep these guys around. I mean, I think if you're talking guys who can be traded for first round picks, there aren't a ton of veterans on this team. Like maybe if Corey Joseph is having a great season, you can trade him for,

though he has a full no trade clause, Cory Joseph would need to approve any trade that is made. So in that case, sure, you might be able to trade him for like a pick in the late, in the late first round, who knows. And Grant, of course, who aside from K8, will probably retain the most value, most trade value on the team. but Grant is probably here for the long term, I would say, at least through the end of the season. Just in general, though, if you're on the verge, if you're on the playing race and the pistons clearly aren't in the full rebuild,

I don't think that they're just going to say, well, we have the pieces we need. We might be in the playing a play and race, but we're just going to start trading guys away. I don't think that's likely to happen just based on what they're trying to do here with this not being like a full multi-year rebuild. and or not a full multi-year, let's be bad, rebuild. But also, if the pistons are in the play-end race, yeah, I guess I already kind of answered that. The only situation in which I would see them trading players is if you've got veterans who have just fallen out of the rotation,

but still somehow retain value. And I don't think that's likely to be the case, unless you've just got a lot of players playing really well, and it's just like, well, we can do without this veteran. But again, the only veterans I see we're really going to have that value are Grant and Joseph. And I don't see Grant going anywhere. Joseph, maybe, but I just don't see a situation in which he's playing well enough to be worth that draft capital, but it has been overshadowed in the rotation nonetheless. Yeah, I would agree with you.

I don't think that much is going to happen. one because it's hard to imagine significant value coming from the veterans that we have. But also, I don't really see too, too many guys on this roster that I want to get rid of, especially in terms of like the older players. I think you would, if you are looking to upgrade, well, the question was, do we tank it out by trading away talent? I don't think that would happen. And part of it is just that I like the veterans that we have on this team.

Jeremy Grant, obviously, like he's not too well. old to fit the timeline of this team. And it's good to have some, like a respected veteran, a guy who started from really far down on the death chart, really. He was on the process sixers, you know. And he was taking, well, he was taking second round. Yeah. He's come a long way.

And I'm sure that that's respected in the locker room amongst these young guys. You know, that's important. Corey Joseph, he's already developed. This has been reported on. He has a good relationship. relationship with Killian. And I think that Killian could learn a lot from Corey Joseph, quite frankly, Corey Joseph, he was attacking the basket. He was playing aggressively. I would not be surprised if by mid-season, those two are the bench unit, Killian and Corey. And I think that killing could

benefit a lot from Cory Joseph. It's not going to be like a situation like mid-season last year where Delon Wright was playing too well. And we traded for what we thought at the time was a worst player in Corey Joseph. I think it's more a matter of there's nobody on this team that I want to get rid of and there's nobody who's going to net a significant value. I mean, you could talk about Kelly Olinick who had a really good second half of the season last year with Houston, even him. I think he's paid just a little too much to net you anything significant. I could see him maybe as part of a package deal, but at the same time, he's opened up the offense tremendously and he's a really nice backup to Isaiah Stewart and Jeremy Grant, a good piece to have. So I don't see it happening. If we are headed

for the playing, which I don't think is likely, the Bulls even, absolutely slaughtering teams right now, I think that they're going to knock, they're going to make their way into the playoffs. I know early returns, but I just don't see that happening. And even if we were in plain territory, I just don't think it's necessary to trade anybody. I think kind of maintaining some stability. I think everybody on this team has a role and an important role that should be respected. I completely forgot about Kelly. But, clearly enough, as far as veterans go. But I'd say that if he's traded, it will likely be as part of some package for another player rather than...

Yeah. If there was a trade that was going to happen midseason, I think it's like Sadiq Bay gets packaged with somebody and you upgrade somebody at the wing. You know, it's that sort of thing. I don't think they're just going to start trading way veterans for the marginal return that you would get from them. So I have trouble seeing it. Yeah, I don't think you're going to see Sadiq traded right now as is anything short of a, you know, a large component for a conceivable, you know, for a start player. And I don't think, I don't think Sadiq Bay is enough value for that. And I don't think the Pistons can pull that off without including draft picks, which they can't do right now.

you know, the Pistons literally can't trade a first-round draft pick until that pick conveys or until, I believe, 2029. So, yeah, it's fine with me. Yeah. All right, folks. Yeah. So that's going to be the end of this show. As always, I appreciate you guys listening. Reiterates, we're always happy to hear from any of you as far as feedback ideas about future episodes and so on and so forth.

feel free to reach out again on Twitter to the basket pod and we'll catch you in the next episode