Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 66: Final preseason observations & regular season storylines to watch

Episode Date: October 19, 2021

This episode explores some further preseason observations, explores player storylines for the regular season, and discusses preferences on the ultimate outcome of the season.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome everybody to drive into the baskets. Part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike. I'm here with Dante and Tommy. As always, fellas, we're getting very close to season. How are you feeling? Two days, two days, Mike. And all that waiting will potentially maybe all have been worth it.

So, you know, feeling pretty excited. Yeah, definitely very, very excited. As always, and we have all these extra things to talk about. Things are finally trending in the right direction. And I'm definitely very excited to talk about it. Yeah, I'm just excited to watch some real honesty good in this NBA basketball. Again, it's been since sometime, I believe, in early May, since we watched the Pistons. And even since we watched the Bucks and the Sons and the finals, I mean, that's been about three months.

So, yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. And fully expect that the Pistons will win a championship. And I'll get all the money off of my, like, one to one million betting odds. Just one championship? How many championships are we talking? I'm talking about it on championship this season so that I can make a million dollars off of this $20 bet I made. So in any event, no, I actually haven't made any bets. All right. So let's just kick it off right away.

So we're just going to start with talking about some of our final preseason takeaways. But the proviso, of course, that this was only preseason. Things could easily look very different in the regular season. But there are just some interesting things we felt we took away from them. So, Dante, what was your, what you say, your primary takeaway from this preseason? If I'm not allowed to repeat what I said last episode, my new takeaway, especially coming from these last two preseason games, I would say is that Grant is picking up where he left off. I thought he looked really good, like really, really good, you know, smooth jumper,

attacking the basket, being aggressive, playing good defense, making the right passes. And that evolution of his game that he showed off all throughout last year has permeated through the offseason. He's clearly continued to work and he still looks good. The only thing that I guess I would take away is that one thing that plagued him last year, which seems to still be plaguing him now, is that he'll start off really hot. And unless he's going to double overtime against the Chicago Bulls, he sort of peters off. You know, the efficiency dips.

He gets a little bit of tired leg syndrome. He doesn't look quite as sharp, quite as good. And I'll stop short of saying that his game falls apart, but he's not nearly as effective towards the end of games as he seems to be in the beginning. So one thing that I was thinking, especially watching these last few preseason games, was I bet you Kate Cunningham is going to help with that. Just having someone who can initiate the offense, someone who takes the offensive pressure off of Jeremy. We went into a pretty big discussion on this several episodes ago, but I really do believe that Grant not being the only guy who can score, you know, not being the only guy who can get you a bucket when you need a bucket is going to be so beneficial to his game too. I wouldn't be surprised to see him average more points per game than he already did because if his shot attempts stay relatively the same,

but he's able to get better looks as a result of having more threats around him, I think you'll see an improved Jeremy Grant. So that's probably my biggest takeaway. I'm curious to know what you guys think about it. Well, I noticed that whereas last season, he would really get knocked down to the ground a lot. I mean, he would end up on his back around the basket quite a bit because he'd drive in. he'd go up strong and he isn't the biggest guy. So he would get hit by the center, hit by whatever,

and he would take a big fall, big tumble onto the floor. He was on the ground a lot. Yeah, it did not look pretty. Really with Grant, I mean, he was very effective last season to drive into the net, what kept him efficient throughout the course of the season because his shooting, like his efficiency from the field really fell off. But he got to the free throw line enough and he shot well enough from the free throw line that he was able to remain an efficient score nonetheless.

particularly for a guy who was creating quite a bit of his own offense. But that did result in him getting a crap beaten out of him across the course of the season. He did seem to be playing in a way that still allowed him to score, but he was a little bit more judicious about the situations in which he put himself on the way to the basket. So, yeah, it is good, obviously, to go hard to the basket. You might score, probably draw a foul. But if it's really going to run you down over the course of a season or even across the course of a game, you might want to do things a little bit differently.

So I think we saw Jeremy play a little bit differently, maybe in a way that's going to keep him feeling a little bit more full in terms of physical health throughout the course of the season. And definitely, I mean, last season, especially after, I mean, not to say that Blake Griffin was an effective creator or that Derek Rose is particularly good for the Pistons last season. Neither of those is true. But Jeremy did take more and more of the offensive load on.

I do think it wore on him. I think that he's best as on a championship team is maybe like a number two B score. So, and I hope that's what he can ultimately be for the best. And so it might be a little while until that's the case. So I was, I was pleased with what I saw from him. I don't think he was really trying his hardest, and I think that was by design.

Yeah, I think you guys summed it up really well. The only thing that I kind of noticed Jeremy doing differently was his play around the rim was just, it was just a different style of play. Like you said, Mike, last season, he was really going in and taking punishment and falling down. this preseason at least he was making the most of uh he he displayed a lot of coordination around the rim uh he was getting a lot of really pretty looks and kind of avoiding contact while still scoring so i'm very encouraged by that do whatever you can to still score at the basket that's obviously the best shot in basketball but uh avoid maybe not avoid contact but

avoid getting pummeled when you get there so definitely happy with what we saw from jeremy grant this uh this preseason and i hope that as we have these guys who theoretically can space the floor better than Mason Plumley, it'll be an easier time for Jeremy Grant at the rim. So definitely agree with you, Dante, a good point. Wait, there are people who can space the floor better than Mason Plumley? Yeah, impossible. I will say, just to follow up on what Dante said,

if you look at Jeremy Grant's splits from last season. In the first quarter, he shot 48% from the floor and about 41.5% from three. And that dropped to 38% from the floor and around 25% from three in the fourth quarter. Wow. I didn't expect that big of a drop in three point percentage. And I'm the one who made the point. That's great. Nice observation, man.

Yeah. Yeah, his splits really plummeted. Absolutely. All right. So yeah, that's Jeremy. Tommy, what was your primary takeaway from the preseason? Yeah, this is one. I think we kind of alluded to this one maybe early on or maybe we talked about it as

something to look for. But the team definitely played a style of basketball in the preseason that was a lot more about sharing the ball and creating advantages. through driving kick offense, which I love to see because that's the sort of offense that is, it relies on everybody doing their part and it relies on guys breaking down the defense and generating opportunities. And one of the benefits of that is that it's a lot harder to defend because it's not set offense. It's about chemistry and awareness. And that was something that I thought the veteran players did a really nice job of Corey Joseph, Kelly Olinick, and Jeremy Grant.

just going inside, kicking out, and generating offense that way. And this was something that, you know, with time is going to come along easier to the young players. And one of the guys that I thought struggled with it was Sadiq Bay because I think he benefits more from set offense. But when it was, when it came time for a driving kick, I think he just struggled a little bit to expand his perimeter game. So maybe this is something that's not going to carry on into the regular season when Kay Cunningham and Killian Hayes come back. But it's encouraging to me that. that the entire team has this way of generating offense, and that'll help ease the pressure off of the young ball handlers.

And that's something that Casey has definitely talked about coming into the regular season. So it's encouraging to see, and I'm happy that it's looked as good as it has. Yeah, I would say definitely with the proviso that this was preseason and we don't know what we'll see in the regular season. There is just a different character to the roster. We started last season with the two primary ball handlers being, well, aside from Dilan Wright, I guess he was more the secondary ball handler when Griffin was on the floor. So number one, you had Blake Griffin, who really played a lot on the low block.

We know how Blake played. And then you had Derek Rose, whose style of play was more or less, give me a pick. I'm going to run and try to either score at the basket or make a straight line pass. And then after the two of them were gone, you had Mason Plumley, who took up a lot of the offensive creation, or a fair load of it anyway, if you're not a ton, but a significant amount just via playmaking through interior passing. and what we've seen is definitely quite a bit different from that. It's much more of a standard NBA driving kick scheme, which is going to be significantly better at generating open opportunities.

Of course, then you have to shoot the ball and get it into the hoop from the perimeter. And that's a different story. But hopefully the pissens will be better at that this season. Yeah, yeah, driving kick, at least the modern NBA version of it, is a lot prettier to watch than like whatever was going on last season. And I think Mike makes a pretty astute point in that. You're probably seeing that driving kick, if that is in fact what they bring into the regular season, more so because of the makeup of the roster,

you know, how significantly it's changed. You've got a lot less in the way of black holes on offense. I don't want to touch too much on Josh Jackson right now because we'll get to him later, but he's playing a more unselfish brand of basketball. You know, Blake is not here. He's not just posting up from the three-point line and completely stalling your offense. Derek Rose isn't here, who does one of two things that Mike previously described when he gets the ball. So the driving kick, it's more modern, it's good, and it's very beneficial to your offense when you have multiple people who are a threat to score around the rim. So what are we looking at right now? We're looking at Grant.

We're looking at, I don't know, Corey Joseph, Saban Lee to a certain extent. If Killian can develop that, that'll be great. And we saw Bay working on it a little bit, you know, summer league and preseason. Not quite there yet, but the more people who can drive to the basket efficiently and then be able to find the open shooter, the better it is. So the evolution of what this driving kick is eventually going to look like has a lot to do with, one, the makeup of the roster changing so significantly. And two, how it ends up is going to depend on the internal development of some of these guys. So this is something definitely to keep an eye on.

I really like that observation, Tommy, it's a good one. All right, moving on. So my primary observation, or not my primary observation, one of I think the major takeaways from the preseason was Josh Jackson, not to the extent. of, oh my goodness, look at Josh Jackson. He looks great. But there was always going to be a rotation battle between Josh and Hamadudiala. They play the same positions. And it's a fairly full wing rotation at the moment when you add in Frank Jackson.

And you can potentially treat Kate or Kieland, like wings to a degree depending on where they play. Whatever the case, the minutes, somebody's going to have to fall out of the rotation. We'll put it that way. And those who listen to the podcast know that I think highly of Hamidu's potential. He was very bad in preseason. He really didn't do anything well. at all. He didn't show any sign of improvement from the perimeter. He was not assertive at all, and that man has to play assertively if he wants to make use of his strengths because he's spoken

about it. The guy is a nuclear athleticism to take a term from Mike Brin. He's incredibly athletic. And so he's got to play assertively and bowl his way to the basket, use that verticality, that burst, didn't do any of that. He played very out of control on offense off the ball. He took quite a few offensive fouls that ended possessions. I didn't even see what he did. It's just the refs called it because it was weird. The refs called these penalties, which I did kind of see what he did. He just barreled into people when he was off the ball. So, yeah, he didn't really show much of all, much of anything at all, rather, which was pretty disappointing for me.

Now, Josh, I thought played fairly well. The biggest change, of course, was that he was much more both willing and able as a passer. I don't think he's ever going to be great at that, but he was certainly focusing on making the right pass. even to the extent of getting the ball at the three-point line and seeing a better shooter available and passing it to him. I mean, that's a big deal, being able to process that, number one, and number two, not having the absence of ego that's necessary to say, well, I'm not going to take the shot because there's somebody else who can do it better than I can. That's a big deal for Josh, obviously. He showed some changes to his shot form. It's no longer as much of a line-drive shot, with all respect to the departed Kobe Bryant line-drive shot as an eye.

ideal. It's just you're more likely hit the rim. And so he actually shot fairly well in three of the four games, 36% overall, which isn't great. But it's, if you can manage that over the course of the regular season, there'd be a big improvement for him. And cut down on on turnovers because he's more willing to pass and just didn't do those, put my head down and drive into the interior and lose the ball to, like driving in a multiple coverage place. So then his defense, of course, still good. You know, the guy doesn't have great office. offensive IQ does have good defensive IQ. And of course, he's a hard worker.

Now, his downsides, shot selection still wasn't great, particularly a step back threes and pull up long twos, though he's half decent of those. And, yeah, that was really only the primary downside. So I'd say he's decisively at the moment, won that battle, and that Hamadu will probably be out of the rotation for now, assuming everybody stays healthy or something very different happens. It's going to be Josh at the beginning, though.

Now, yeah, I'd say, I've said it before. or his key skill, his swing skill is going to be the perimeter shooting. He's got to be able to do it, nor nothing is going to work. So if you can keep those, if you can shoot consistently, keywork consistently, a decent percentage on catching shoots, and cut down his bad shots, selection, play good defense. I think there will be an argument for him to start at the two if Killian falls out of the lineup.

Yeah, I agree with you. That was, so much has been made of that this week. And what a difference a week and a half makes? because just on the last podcast, we were all thinking Josh is kind of set in his ways, and he still hasn't proven himself by any means, but he's shown drastic improvement. So definitely very happy with what we saw from him this week. The way I thought about it, and I know this is going to sound weird at first, but just bear with me. I thought a few days ago he's playing like a star player would within an offense because he's going in,

he's using his athleticism to generate opportunities, which is something that he hasn't done for anybody other than himself. and even in the past he hasn't done that very well for himself. So it's not that he's playing like a star, but he's playing the play style of a star. He's going in, he's taking these more difficult shots, but this is what we want from him. He's just doing it on low volume as a bench player. So I'm really happy with what we've seen from him,

and I guess he has really earned that rotation spot, assuming he is able to continue playing this way. Yeah, definitely a good observation, and I hope that it carries into the regular season. I know B-Line has been a guy who's been helping him. He gave him a book to read. So I guess it's working. So keep reading, Josh.

Keep reading. That was a good way to end it. All right. Keep reading, rainbow. Yeah, I don't know what book he read, but whatever it is, yeah, it's definitely had some kind of an impact. But I've been pleased with how Josh has played in preseason two.

And if you've been listening to this podcast long enough, you know that I, well, all three of us, but me especially, I've been highly. highly critical of Josh. And a lot of that comes from just the frustration of seeing someone with all of these tools, right, this explosive athleticism, tenacious defense, score first mentality, like plays like a star. You're absolutely right about that, Tommy. I don't think it sounds weird at all. I think that anybody who watches Josh Jackson would say, this guy thinks he's the best player

on the court all of the time. But depending on what percentage you're hitting your shots at and depending on the shot selection, that can be a very bad thing. And it was a bad thing last season. And also, too, I've been on record as saying that I think Josh is, how did I phrase it, I think I said he's the worst passer that I've ever seen at the NBA level. And I've sort of softened on that a little bit this preseason, but I will say this. The passing has improved in large part because his shot selection and his attitude towards

offense has been different. You know, if you're tunnel visioning it, if you're driving right at the basket every single time or if you're doing so many dribble combinations that, you know, you just get stuck on a double team. When you do decide to pass, your passing options are limited. You're passing from a bad position and therefore you're going to turn the ball over or you're going to pass to someone who's slightly covered. You're just not going to look good as a passer. But when you're more open and willing and ready to give the ball up, then your options are vastly improved. So I think that all these little things sort of tie together and they made them look a lot better than last

season. The only thing I'm a bit hesitant on is the shooting. I don't think Josh is going to be an effective player if his percentages are anywhere near where they were at last year. And even though, what did you say, Mike, it was 36% from three this preseason. That's deep. Was it 36%? Yeah, it's decent. He shot pretty poorly against New York, I believe, or maybe it was Memphis, probably Memphis, the Pistons got obliterated in that game. Yeah, yeah, but the vast majority of this preseason he was a average to maybe slightly above average shooter. If he can keep that up, then I'm optimistic about his long-term fit on the team. But I just, so many people are going to hate this, but I'm just not a believer in that shot holding up. I'm not, I know the form has

improved a little bit. I know the arc has improved. But until I see it over an extended period of time, I'm just not confident that he can be an average shooter. So for right now, he's certainly outplayed Bialo for right now. He's looked better as a passer as a decision maker, as an offensive facilitator as an offensive focal point. But the key to making sure that Josh can actually stick around and be an effective player is to stay consistent with these changes. That's not something we've seen him do at any point during his career. So unless a switch has just flicked right now and things are different from here on out,

I'm not optimistic. So this is something I'm definitely going to keep a close eye on. Yeah, I agree that consistency has always been an issue with Josh. At the beginning of last season, he looked like he was playing fairly well. In reality, he was just shooting in outstanding. And by outstanding, I mean, completely unsustainable percentage in a restricted area. Definitely. Absolutely unsustainable.

Even at that point, he was shooting in a high 20s from three. And this three-point shooting is, I'll say it again, I mean, just has to happen. I mean, there are very, very, very few players who can make it work from the perimeter without shooting. And those players are kind of like your Jimmy Butler's and Greek freaks of the NBA. it just, it doesn't, it doesn't work. You have to be able to take that shot, or you're eliminating so many options for your offense, and you're making life much easier on the defense.

So I think, and I continue to think that Josh's niche, if he's going to stand the NBA, will be as kind of an athletic 3-D wing, who can create some off the dribble and advantageous situations. And it's encouraging to me that his ego seems to be less of a thing this year. He is willing to make the right pass. he is willing to not try to be that takeover scorer that clearly he really wants to be and has always wanted to be. And that's good to see.

And if he can get that shot down and if he can play his role, then I think he could be a valuable player. These athletic three and D wings are a big deal in the NBA. These guys do not grow on trees. And if Josh can be that, I think he's got a long-term future with the Pistons. But we're very, very, very, very early on, you know, in a season in which he's looked better in preseason. and he's got a lot of proving himself to do. I don't know if you'd say I'm optimistic or pessimistic. I'm intrigued.

It would be the word for me. That's a nice way of putting it. I would just hope that he continues to pass it. Well, I think that's going to really help him in terms of his percentages. Because I think one of the things that really plagued him, in addition to the shooting form, which I agree with you, Dante, I'm not a huge believer in yet. But if he can just fix his shot selection, you know, not take such difficult pull-ups, that alone could probably really help him.

But that's the last thing I would have to say on him. Okay, so just moving on to a final one, and this is, I suppose, kind of a takeaway, but just a general subject would be a defense and rebounding, which I think were a prominent weak point in preseason, largely just based on the roster. I would say as much as none of us really liked Plumley, you know, he's a pretty mediocre player. I love Plumley. Oh, right, of course. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, replacing him with Kelly Owinnick, though it does certainly have very positive ramifications

for the offense, which you can do on offense, with spacing and this creation in general, which Olinick is, of course, drastically better at than Mason Plumley. It does make you weaker in interior defense and rebounding on both ends. So you guys have any thoughts on that, how it's going to look as we head into the regular season, and whether, I guess, that sacrifice on defense and on the boards is, is worth the improvement on offense. So I might have to disagree with you here a little bit, Mike. I do think that rebounding in defense was a bit of an issue in the preseason,

but if the cost of, you know, slightly inferior rebounding comes at the benefit of much better spacing, especially when we've got Cade coming in who's going to be the beneficiary of such spacing, it's a tradeoff that I would make. I think that a four-game sample size isn't enough to say that our rebounding is a huge huge detriment. I think when Stuart gets going at full capacity, he's going to really help on the boards. I think that Cade as a guard is a very good rebounder. I went back and I watched a lot of Cade's college tape. And I think that he's a very imposing presence around the rim, especially when he's matched up on other guards. Because the fact of the matter is, you know, even though

Kate is only 5 foot 6, he's a lot bigger than a lot of the other guards he's going up again. So I think that when you see the team out there at full strength, the rebounding will improve. if these issues persist into the regular season when we do have our normal rotation out there, then I'll agree with you. But for right now, I think I'm comfortable with the tradeoff. Yeah, this is something that I've been trying to think about when I look at the upcoming draft class. There's a guy, a traditional center, but definitely more of a bruiser than Isaiah Stewart just in terms of his play style. It's Jalen Duren. And when Isaiah struggled initially in preseason, I was kind of thinking, okay, is this a guy that actually is worth looking into?

just because we're all curious as to what Isaiah Stewart is and what he will be. But it's not set in stone, so it's good to consider all the options. And that aside, I think it is worth it to just have the five-out offense, even if you're rebounding suffers. Maybe it's something that the team has to just kind of work around as a group. Maybe they have to all collapse, but then maybe your transition defense suffers because other guys may be leaking out in transition. And that's something that they'll just have to navigate and figure out

with time. Like we've alluded to, this is a very different roster makeup in previous years. It still trips me out that last season we started the season with Blake Griffin and Derek Rose. It's so weird to think about. But it's not a big, it's not a huge problem to me. Weaver is definitely aware of the importance of rebounding. That's not going to be something that they just let continue to be an issue for the long term. So it's, it's something that they're going to have to work on, but maybe it's something that Isaiah can work on. Maybe it's something that the team will work on as a unit. But that's definitely something to keep an eye on during the season.

I agree with you, Mike. Yeah, I would say that, well, it's just, there's very little strength there on the boards. I mean, you, and also just in terms of interior defense. So you've got Kelly Olinick, obviously drastically better than Mason Plumlee as a scorer. He's a guy who can stretch the floor. He's a guy who can beat slower centers off the dribble. He's just overall, much more versatile.

Maybe not quite as good as the scorer, but as we've talked about in the past, with Plumley, his talents, excuse me, not quite as good as a passer, pardon me. So as we've talked about in the past, Plumley's talents as a score, as a passer, excuse me, just did it again, are less and less valuable, the more creation you have on the floor. So I'm not too worried about that. So obviously, it's an enormous improvement on offense and just the ability to have a five-out system. It's like Tommy said is just a very, it's a very, very nice thing to have.

I mean, it opens up so many more options. It makes things a great deal harder on the defense. Now, my concerns, like on the boards, just the pistons basically have one strong rebounder on the team right now and a bunch of below average rebounders. I mean, Jeremy Grant said, okay, you know, yeah, I know I need to improve as a rebounder. And that would be nice because, you know, he's athletic enough to go up on the boards, especially on the defensive boards. Offensive rebounding isn't that key anymore. Generally, teams will run back on defense and just instead they'll run back to defend in transition rather than try to attack the offensive boards. So offensive rebounding isn't really a big deal.

It's nice to have, but it's not a huge deal. With Isaiah Stewart, even though he's a good offensive rebounder, you'll see him often just look and see what's going on and run back on defense. So that happens sometimes. Defensive rebounding is a different story. You saw the pistons get cut up a bit in that respect. And, you know, that's a problem. And when you've got Kelly Olenick on the floor, I think it might be an issue.

You're going to have to do, you're going to have to be a good team rebounding team. and that's tough to do without a strong rebounding presence. You don't need an elite rebounding presence, but a strong rebounding presence. My bigger concern is interior defense. With Kelly Olinick on the floor, you don't have much. He's easily bullied, and he is not a good room protector. And he just doesn't have the greatest off defensive instinct or lateral mobility.

And that does make me concern. For example, like the Pissons don't have a third string center they can bring onto the floor, just for defense, just a strong interior finish. who can play decent interior defense. They don't have that guy. So what if one of them has to miss time with injury or if you just want to have a winnic on the floor with the guy who can play defense

and you're resting stewards? So those are my concerns. Yeah, no, those are valid concerns. I think it's like I said, if those things persist into the regular season, you know, with our optimal lineup out there, then I think it's certainly a point of emphasis, something we need to talk about.

But if we're all good on the rebounding, there's something that I wanted to transition into and made me think about it as, we were talking about our optimal lineup. And we had talked before recording how we've got these pressing, call them questions, call them storylines. You could call them, you know, whatever you want. But the fact of the matter is is that they're lingering things, you know,

that we're not going to be able to find out until the regular season starts, you know. And first and foremost at the front of everyone's mind is Mr. Number One over himself, Kate Cunningham. So one thing that we wanted to touch on and we wanted to talk about, I'm curious what Mike and Tommy have to say about it is, is Kate A. to become that what did what a gores call him a human connector you know and and similar to what mike calls him the heliocentric creator we haven't been able to see kate out there on the floor this preseason and part of me feels like the organization is just teasing us you know i don't think that the uh ankle

injury is all that serious i expect him out there on opening night so the big question is what is he going to look like how is he going to fit into the equation is he going to live up to the height so what do you guys think uh i would say first of all i've been a little bit annoyed at how the organization has handle this. I get that none of us have the obligation to get information on the organization, information as far as what is going on with the players health. But you've got this guy who is, you know, aside from that very short time after the Blake Griffin's Ray, when everybody was super excited before it became clear that it was a train wreck. This is the most excited people have been, and probably even more exciting than people are more excited than Kay than they were about

that. This number one overall pick was coming in. He's a young guy. The Pistons won the lottery. And he's billed as a potentially, franchise changing player. And there's an injury and people are excited for it. There's an injury and the organization just won't tell us anything. I think it's just a bad way to build goodwill with the fans. I think it's just a little bit shady. And I wish they'd just honestly just been open about it.

But having gotten all that off my chest, I think that one of Cade's strengths that put him so high up on the draft board, you know, to number one, you know, to wit. It's about as high as you can get. that is how NBA ready he was judged. Now, people had some misgivings after watching him in Summer League, or the worst and overall misgivings. I think it's been established that Kay was not in game shape at all. He'd really not played five on five thanks to the layover after the NCAA tournament

and thanks to COVID since I think late March, maybe early April. I don't remember the exact date. It was not in game shape at all. And also the team was the roster was a train wreck, just trying to force all sorts of square pegs in a round hole. I'm pretty confident. I'm pretty confident that he will become that weed handler by midseason. Maybe in part because it'll just be the best the pistons have, but that would be a big deal if you were the best of pistons have because that would, well, that's not really a very high bar to step over. But so I'll amend that.

But I think, you know, I think that it will be, we'll see encouraging, we'll have encouraging returns by midseason. So I think so. I think he will end up that primary ball handler by the time. season rolls around. Yeah, I'm really happy that this question was phrased in the way it was and that we don't expect this to be his role right off the bat. And part of that, I think, is that, you know, we've talked a lot about how his big deficiency is his lack of a great first step. And to work around that, I think he's just going to have to learn to pick apart NBA defense. And a lot of that is going to be handles. Going back to Summer League, a lot of the work that he did was on the perimeter.

And he didn't, I don't know if he ended up shooting zero free throws or two free throws. It was a very low number, but the main point is that he wasn't getting to the rim very often. And that's something that primarily, primary ball handler should be able to do. So just seeing the growth from Cade in terms of how he's able to find his way to the basket is something that we're going to be able to keep an eye on. and theoretically the spacing for Cade in the regular season will be a lot better than it was in summer league. So that should help. But regardless, it's NBA defense and he's going to have to learn to work around it.

There was a great article from the Ringer where they kind of dissected what is feel for basketball. And they kind of talked about why Cade is such a great example of it. And part of it was pattern recognition. And that's something that it's essentially basketball IQ. and learning the tendencies of your opposition and learning how to work around them. And that's going to be Cade's big advantage. And the way that he's going to make the most of this IQ

is getting reps. So give him time, give him time within the season to make mistakes, figure things out. And even if it doesn't happen on the timeline that we want or that we optimistically would hope for, I think I'm confident that he will eventually get there. So by mid-season, maybe that's a little fast. But I would expect a lot of improvements and for his responsibilities to pick up more and more as the season goes on.

I would still like another ball handler next to him just to ease the pressure on him. And that's something the Casey's talked about. He said that the reason that they're starting Killian and Cade next to each other is so they can help ease the pressure on each other. But I think Cade will eventually get to a point where he can be the focal point of an offense. That's what he was billed to be. and that's where he will be the most effective player. Yeah, I would echo what you guys have said. And I think maybe if it's not as early as midseason this year,

maybe as late as midseason next year, I do believe Kate is going to show out to be that true three-level score as well as an elite playmaker. The only one on the roster who even comes close to that skill set is Jeremy Grant at his best. But even at his best, you know, Jeremy doesn't even come close to the potential that Kate has as a passer. So when you look at this multifaceted skill set that Cade has,

I just don't see a reason why he wouldn't be given the reins, why he wouldn't develop into that guy sooner rather than later, especially considering the lack of options around him. You know, we talk about Killian, how he hasn't quite shown that he's ready to be the primary ball handler if he's ever going to be ready. Grant has his limitations. He tails off at the ends of games.

He gets beat up on the way to the basket. He's not going to be the 1A on a championship team. but I just spent, you know, I binged. I don't know if you guys saw Cade's documentary there, the one that he did with overtime. I watched all three episodes, and I know this is a very analytical, thoughtful show. So we don't really tend to go into the off-the-court stuff too too much to present as arguments. But as I was watching this documentary, you know, seeing his relationship with his cousin and his brother and how they've sort of molded and shaped his training and shaped his career,

I have every confidence that they've poured over every single. second of footage in Summer League identified the areas that Cade was strong, identified the areas that he was weak, isolated those, and have worked on those. I think the Pistons have done the very same thing. I understand your frustration, too, Mike, with the way that they've handled the injury. But quite frankly, you know, goodwill with the fans doesn't win you any games. If the idea is to keep Cade healthy, fully rested until he's absolutely ready to go, I'm cool with that.

And when he does return to the court, you know, after watching the tape from Summer League, I expect him to come out guns blazing and I think he's going to be very good off the bat. I think he's going to show off that diverse skill set and immediately introduce a wrinkle into the offense that we haven't seen since. Oh man, I don't know. Grant Hill.

I hate to make that comparison, but in some ways it's true. So I have every confidence that he's going to be that lead of ball handler. I think by midseason, but even if it's as late as next season, I think he's going to be everything he was billed as and more. So I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on that, but that's probably where I'd have a lot.

line on the spectrum right now? I'd say my concern, I know we all have this concern. And I don't necessarily buy it with Casey's saying that they want Killian on the floor with them to take the pressure off each other because unless we're going to see something very new from Killian, I basically, I think we're going to go into the season. We'll talk about this little, I mean, I guess we'll talk about Killian next. So I'll save it until then. But I think it's more just about making sure he gets reps.

I don't think it's, I don't think it's an ideal situation. But we'll see. Yeah, as far as Kate, I'm just, I'm very confident in his, his basketball IQ, his maturity, his drive to improve, just his intelligence overall. These are important things. And I think it should never go overlooked also just the impact that by all accounts he just has on his teammates. That was part of what was said about being a human connector. I think that was Troy Weber, who said that, not Tom Gores. And so, yeah, the intangibles will be there, I'm sure also.

Somebody, I don't remember which analyst it was, but I was talking about just even in Summer League how, even when he wasn't playing on the ball, just finding a way to position himself or just to set a very minor screen or to do something else, when he was away from the play, could have a significant influence on how the play developed. So he's just very smart that way. So, yeah, I have confidence. I'm confident that he'll get there. He's going to be a guy who's going to have to get by more on his brains than some players because he's not really super high on the athleticism scale. But I think he can do it. Yeah.

Yeah, no, he's not lacking for brains at all. I think I was more encouraged the most, honestly, with his performance in Summer League. And the one thing Tommy brought this up, and Tommy's right. The one thing that Kate really needs to improve on is drawing fouls, specifically being able to get to the line. I personally believe, as I'm sure, anybody who watches basketball believes that you can't be a star or superstar in this league if you don't get to the line. You can't.

You know, when your shot's not falling, which is going to happen, doesn't matter if you're Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, or Kate Cunningham. They're going to be nights when your shot just doesn't fall from the field. You have to get to the line. You have to figure out how to put the ball in the basket some way, somehow. And one of the areas that I had said this in a prior episode, I'll reiterate it now, one of the areas I think that was completely neglected in Summer League that would lead to more trips to the line are post touches. You know, and I'll bring up the documentary again.

And watching the documentary, it went into how Cade was a small forward, power forward for most of his life because he was bigger than most of his competition. He would practice post moves because he saw his older brother do these post moves and he became very skilled in an around. the basket. And then when it became clear, he wasn't going to be, you know, 610, 611, his camp decided to transition him to point guards. So he worked on his handle. He worked on his passing. He worked on his shooting. And he became the number one overall pick. But that touch around the basket, you know, those post moves, the feel in that area hasn't left him. If you go watch his college tape, he consistently seals off smaller guards and he's able to either hook it over them or just kind of turn his shoulder into them and bully his way up to the basket. And he drew fouls,

not at an elite rate, not at a crazy rate, but enough to make sure he was still scoring even when his shot wasn't falling. So I think that the organization is too, well, the people in the organization, the people making decisions and his teammates are too smart not to realize that their entire dimensions of his game that we haven't even come close to unlocking yet. So the one area that I am concerned about,

I see a viable solution, you know, to fixing, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, that is a great point, Dante. and that is something that he did really quite well at Oklahoma State. So I think part of the reason we didn't see it in Summer League was, again, the center and power forward rotation. There was no spacing. But with the current iteration of the team, there should be some room for him down there to take advantage of mismatches.

So, yeah, I definitely think that there is room to see that part of Cade's game, because you're right. We just haven't seen it yet in the Pistons uniform. And I am very excited about that. Just before we move on, the one thing that really, kind of bummed me out about this. And I hope it doesn't have any long-term effects, is that Kate is a very vocal leader on the court. Like, we saw that a lot in Summer League. And there was a tweet today from one of the beat writers saying, well, where Casey said that Kate has been quiet

because he hasn't been able to play in scrimmages and he doesn't feel like he can be a vocal leader if he's not playing. So I really hope they're able to get him back soon. Obviously, I don't want them to rush him if it's going to cause more injury risk, but that really bummed me out. And I just want to, I really hope he does get to find his voice within the lineup because he does seem like such a natural leader and I do want that for him. So that was probably my last takeaway, but I'm very excited for him to just get out there and play.

I wouldn't be too concerned about that tweet. I totally believe that he's been quiet recently, but, you know, being a high level athlete like him. I can imagine that there's sort of like a switch that flicks when you're actually playing the game where you want to be aggressive, you want to be vocal, you've got the adrenaline pumping. But if you've been sidelined with this ankle, you know, at the end of the day, you're still like a 19, 20 year old kid watching grown professional millionaire adult athletes out there. It's probably tough to yell at them from the bench. So I totally get where he's coming from, probably felt a little awkward and self-conscious. But when he's on the floor, I can't imagine that would

be an issue. So with that, let's step away for a quick word from our sponsor. Another week of the NFL season means another shot to win big at Draft King's sportsbook. New customers can bet just $1 on any NFL game and win $100 in free bets if either team scores a point. The last zero-zero tie in the NFL was actually in 1943, so I'd say this is a no-brainer. His sportsbook isn't available in your state yet. Don't worry. Draft Kings will not leave you empty-handed.

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Always ready to move on to Killian. Our question about Killian really is what can he show this season at the NBA level? So I guess as the resident Killian Doubtor, this has been, I was surprised to hear that he only played 22 minutes. I guess that makes sense. But boy, boy, he just, he still doesn't have it. it. And I guess the main issue for me now, like I've kind of alternated back and forth on it's the shooting, it's the driving. But right now I'm firmly in. He just needs to be able to drive inside and create advantages. And it's become even more of an issue from what we've seen because the team is

kind of relying on driving kick offense. And if the ball is kicked out to Killian and he can't drive, well, then the offense just kind of fizzles out. And then you have to kind of restart the whole play. So I don't know what the solution is there. I don't know if we had this discussion about how to use Killian and how to, how he should be used within the rotation. And my idea was to bring him off the bench and Corey Joseph should take a spot in the starting lineup. And I'm sticking with that because if what Casey has said, I know Mike, you said, it's probably just lip service to make Killian to boost his confidence.

but if what Casey has said is that they want to take the pressure off of Cade, you need a legitimate ball handler next to him. And I think Corey Joseph is that and Killian Hayes is not. I think Killian should come off the bench, get the spotlight off of him, let him play more comfortably, and just frame it as like, we want to bring him back slowly from injury. Like, that's what I feel like needs to happen because right now he's just looked useless. And again, 22 minutes and people talk about it, he's only played 40 games.

It's technically his rookie year. not technically, but it's functionally his rookie year. He played like 24 games last season, I think. Right. And that's all true, but I still feel like his starting point is so far behind that of a typical NBA rookie. So I'm just concerned that it's going to be too much for him again. And playing next to K, there are certain expectations. And I'm worried that that's going to further hurt his confidence.

So I would like to do whatever you can to just quietly let him develop. without the spotlight on him. That's what I would like, and I would like him to come off the bench if they can do that. I don't think they will. I don't think that's the sort of change that they would make at this point. But that's what would happen ideally for me. Yeah, I think that the spotlight will certainly be on Killian because he was the first pick in the rebuild.

He was the number seven pick, albeit in a weak draft. And he did look terrible last season in the most part. I mean, he had some decent games, but on the whole, the Pistons, even if you just look at Killian's games after he returned from injury, they would have had the league's worst ranked offense with him on the floor. I mean, they scored about 100 points per possession with him when he was on the floor. That is absolutely terrible. They were not a great team without him, of course, but they were significantly better.

He did give a boost defensively. He's a good defender, given that. But I do agree with you, it looks like he was starting far behind. And that left-hand dominance is still a problem. And his, you know, we said that we heard. heard that he was playing more aggressively. We only saw him for 22 minutes. I'd like to reiterate that. And that was in between him missing about a week of practice with an angle injury and then going out with a concussion. And so I want to draw too many conclusions from that. But coming on the

heels of a horrible summer league, it's hard not to, yeah, it's just it's hard not to draw, to get a little bit anxious about it. The thing is with killing, you have to have some certain skills just to play in the NBA at all. Shooting is one of those. He's shown no acuity for it, originally. You know, if he could just shoot threes and play defense and be a secondary playmaker, okay, that's a bit of a disappointing outcome. But if you're playing him next decade, that's mostly fine, though it's not ideal to have another not particularly athletic guy in the back court next decade. But my question, like when we said, what does he have to offer? It's literally for me, like at this point, just at this point, because this is kind of pretty much

his rookie year, you know, practically speaking. But at this point, what does he have to be have to offer. And I think even if he has a bad season, he'll get to probably the deadline of next season before anything is done. It just depends on what the case is. You know, the Pistons have no, we'll have no incentive to have nine to sell low. And I'm not going to be saying, well, get rid of the guy if he still sucks halfway through. But it's basically, can he be an NBA player right now this season? That is my question. At least in the first half of the season, can he be an NBA player? It's the last season he really wasn't. And in Summer League, he wasn't. No, no. And if the question is, you know, what purpose does Killian serve? You know, what does he do for the team on the floor right now? Truth be told, functionally on the court, nothing. You know, he serves no purpose. Because if you can't shoot, you're not really a useful player, unless you're like a big oversized center, you're not really a useful player off the ball. And if you can't drive to the basket with aggressiveness and put up a respectable,

percentage around there. You're not really functional on the ball either. You know, he's not breaking down his man. He's making good passes, but if the defense doesn't respect you, your passing options are limited. And he obviously can't shoot off the pull up or the dribble because we've seen those clank off the front end of the rim more times than I, you know, care to count. And I say this with a Killian Hay's jersey in my closet. You know, I was excited when we drafted him. I have a lot of hope for him. I just don't think that, how do I want to say this? I'll I'll put it this way. Tommy, I get where you're coming from with the starting Corey Joseph. And if I didn't agree with you a few weeks ago that Joseph was a functionally better option,

I certainly do now after having watched preseason and Corey's been respectable. But I've said this before and I'll maintain it. The organization really, really wants it to work between Killian and Cade. And I think with as talented as Cade is, he has the potential to bring out the best in players, right? So I say you toss Cade and Cillian out there. you see how it goes maybe killian starts to show flashes maybe he starts to show flashes of utility and if things are going okay you keep him out there but i think the point where you sort of pull the cord and then do what you said tommy and bring him along slowly off the bench and let him develop out of the

spotlight is if he's hampering kade's development you know if he's so bad if he's so useless out there that he's actively hurting the offense if he's a detriment to the development of the players I would say at that point you pull the court and you say, okay, we're going to find specialized rules for you off the bench and you're going to develop quietly and we're going to make it the Cade Cunningham show. So that would be my answer to that question. Yeah, I just feel like it should be reiterated. Like I've seen it wondered like, you know, why can't Killian,

is it okay if Killian just can't shoot threes and he is just a primary ball handler and he just drives into the interior and passes the ball? So, you know, my answer to that question is, But number one, he's not a guy who drives into the interior and has success there. He's actually last season at least in summer league. He was very bad at it. But also just the cost of having a perimeter player. And this is why perimeter players who can't shoot are almost extinct in the NBA,

like literally almost extinct. And the guys you do have left are largely just superstars like Janice, who has an entire team built around them, four guys who can shoot. And that's pretty much in the postseason, basically at all times. And you add your centers, Brooke Lopez can shoot. what's his name, Bobby, Bobby Portis. Yeah, he can shoot. So in any case, if you have a perimeter player who can't shoot,

it just takes so many options away from the offense because he's useless off the ball for the most part. Defense is just, yeah, I mean, it's one of my shooter on the floor. Defenses will punish him hard. Just sag off of him in the paint, makes it harder on everybody else. So it's a double whammy. And the, you know, that, you know, that that's why these guys don't exist anymore,

these guys who just can't shoot and just handle the ball. I mean, you can say Westbrook, sure, but Westbrook really is a severely overpaid player who hijacks your offense and he has to play. And his way is not effective. So first and foremost, killing has to be able to shoot, period. End of story. No question there.

Absolutely, if he wants to stay in the NBA and be an effective player of any stripe has to be able to shoot, period. So that's not all what's going to take for him to realize his potential, but it is an absolutely necessary thing that is order of business number one. if he wants to stay with the Pistons and have a career in the NBA. So can he do that right now? That's anybody's guess. Certainly the returns are not encouraging.

Next, beyond that, if he wants to be a good playmaker, can he drive in and get past people and draw fouls or whatever, be able to break down the defense? Can he do that? Who knows? But he's not a guy. You can't just have him come in and handle the ball and play defense and expect it to go well. He's going to be a negative value player and he'll take away from Cade.

So, yeah, I'd just like to see if he can he be an above replacement? value NBA player this season. And I am neither optimistic nor pessimistic, and I think that patience should be afforded him. But yeah, take him out of the starting lineup. It would be terrible. And Corey Joseph is not a bad player. I don't want him play in extricade in particular,

but yeah, we'll see. That's not an ideal pairing for me. I'd rather that he be with a shooting guard who can, or with the back court partner who plays effectively off the ball. And Corey Joseph really isn't that guy. Okay, so that's it for killing. in a couple of quick storylines, which we have really discussed already.

Number one, can Sadiq Bey become more than just a three-and-d-deed player? We've talked about that a great deal, including just on the previous episode, the last one we posted. Can Jeremy Grant remain consistent across the course of a season? Again, one we've gone over is both important. Important storylines for the Pistons, of course. And then a final one, can Isaiah Stewart this season take the leaf? to become really a bona fide starting center.

And for my part, that would really mean three things. Like, he's already established himself as a good defender, a good interior score. Number one, can he attack closeouts? Number two, can he shoot well from the perimeter? That's a big deal. And number three, can he cut down in his fouls? Yeah, if we're good to move on here, I sort of wanted to jump into or switch gears to a pertinent topic that I think touches on the bigger picture of things.

This has been a hot topic in our group chat that the three of us have, and I feel like Pistons fans are in for a bit of an existential crisis because, well, I'll just say this. I think we've spent the better part of the past, well, some of us longer than others, maybe longer than two, three years, but wanting to lose, you know, wanting to blow it up because the team was directionless. The team wasn't going anywhere. And the best way to acquire top end talent was the top of the draft was losing. You know, I was rooting heavily for loss.

at the end of last season, as I'm sure a lot of Pistons fans were. So I felt this paradigm shift, even throughout the preseason, you know, during Summer League and the preseason, I just want to win, man. Like, I just am at the point where I want to see the Pistons go out there and win games. And I think we've got our eventual 1A on a championship team. You know, we've got Cade. We faded for Cade, mission accomplished. And now I'd like to see the boys win.

So Tommy and I have been, I want to say, diametrically opposed on this for a while. Mike sort of falls a bit more in the middle. But Tommy, I'm curious to know you specifically, and then I'd like Mike to jump in as well. Where do you stand on the, well, actually, I know where you do, but could you elaborate for the audience where you stand on the wins versus losses discussion? Yeah. I mean, maybe it's just because I love the draft so much, but I see so much potential and so much like, man, how can this guy help us? How can this guy help us? And the top end talent is usually at the top.

That sounds incredibly obvious, but like 50% of All-Stars are taking. with picks one through five. So if you get one of those, you really help your chances. So I still feel like this team is just, it still really should be, it really should still be in talent acquisition mode. And even though we're going to have some money coming off the books in 2023, I just feel like it'll really help us if we can nail down another top pick. And even though I'm looking at this upcoming draft and I'm not thrilled by what I see,

Chet Holmgren, I think he's too skinny, Paulo Boncaro, he's kind of a tweener for, or five, Jaden Hardy's not the athletic guy that you want to play next to Cade. I just feel like you have a lot more in the way of options. Like even if you don't like any of those guys, you can trade that pick. And that's really what it boils down to for me. Talent acquisition, like you said, the best way to improve your team, especially if you're a small market, is through the draft. And while we trust that Troy Weaver can find talent anywhere, I mean, he found

Sadiq Bay at 19, Isaiah Stewart at 16. I just think that, you know, if you want, like, difference makers, you're going to find those at the top of the draft. And that's really what it boils down to for me. I just want, I really just want the team to be patient. And I know that we've been patient for a long time, you know, 12 years long, but really only recently we've taken the steps necessary. And there was this article about Tom Gore's. I don't have the direct quote right now, but I think the gist of it was he's kind of seen the problems with trying to win immediately and win all the time.

You have to reset sometimes. You have to make decisions that benefit you in the future. And I think that sticking it through for another year would be very much worth it. And now we have the added benefit of Kade Cunningham is on the team. We get to watch the development of these young guys. And that'll ease that pain. I want to win just as badly as everybody else. But right now I see that as something that we can do down the line.

Like 2024 should be our target year. And I know that sounds like it's really far away, but we can still enjoy the journey. As far as Tom Goris, I believe what he said was that he realizes you just can't rush it. You have to build the right way. You can't just try to force it. But in any case, so last year was considered so successful as far as rebuilt go because the Pistons got both a solid player development,

particularly out of Stu, Stewart, excuse me, on Bay, and also got the number one overall pick. Of course, that's a pretty big deal. So I think success for this season will be one of two things. Either the Pistons shock everybody and end up as a playoff team or at least a plan team. The plan really isn't all that impressive. It means you were the 10th best team in your conference out of 15 teams or 11th best, excuse me.

So, or am I wrong? No, 10th best. That's right. Yep. So that might be a success. It's obviously meant that a great deal has gone right with the Pistons youth. Or you get a lot of good player development and you get another high. draft pick. Now, just like Dante said, I felt kind of in the middle of the two of you guys.

I would, last season, as I've said multiple times in this podcast, got really grading for me and near the ends just saying, oh, goodness, please, the Pistons go in and play badly so that we can lose this game. And by the end of the season, I'd got, I'd gone really far down that rabbit hole. Like, you know, looking at all these scenarios for the last two games, doesn't make any sense for Nicole Yokic to play against the Pistons. The answer is yes, because he's awesome and wanted to play every game. Did it actually make sense for him to play? No.

But he insisted on playing every game. All the respect to him. He said, I want to play all 72 games to be the MVP. Great. Absolutely deserved it. And then the Pistons got stomped. So that was good. And then does it make any sense for Jimmy Feltwer to play in the season finale,

you know, based on all these scenarios? And the answer was no, he didn't play. The Pistons got stomped. Okay, fine. But man, it got stressful near the end. Like with those games against Orlando and Charlotte, like I was on vacation in Florida and watching those games. And it's like, I really could have done without that.

I could have done without watching this team that I like. And just being super stressed, can this team manage to pull off these losses? It was funny at the beginning of the season. And then it got kind of old. And then it got really just incredibly unenjoyable. So I would like to see the Pistons end up. with another good draft pick because just like Tommy said, as a small market team,

you really get a hit on those picks. You want to get that talent in the draft. And so that would be great. And if the Pistons managed to do their best and play their hardest and be a terrible team and we see some good development, fine, I don't see both of those things happening. I don't see both the youth playing well and the Pistons being horrible. So I would just prefer to let it take its course.

And the Pistons have kind of put themselves, in that position. I don't think that they're at an absolute bottom feeder, though the fact that the East is so strong this year will work in their advantage in that capacity. Yes, I agree with you, and Mike. Maybe just to finish off the episode. You called it in the air last year. You said number one pick, and then it happened. Do it again. Call it. Where do you think? What pick do you think we're going to land? Just to finish the episode. Come on, Ray, see. Yeah, I did that on the basis of my feeling in the moment. So I can't really, I don't really have all the information. How do you feel right now, How do I feel right now?

I feel like the I feel like the Pistons could be a somewhat surprising team and come in at the tail end of the play in. That's how I feel about it. I was I forgot to say this. I mean, I was just right after you ended talking and I was going to say, oh, well, man, only like, you know, eight months until the draft. Woohoo. I'm already researching. Yeah, but I really don't feel that way. And for the most part, I'll generally just research guys not long before the draft.

last season ended up being kind of an exception. Like I started quite a bit earlier because I knew the pistons were going to be at the bottom. I just like to go in and watch basketball and not have it be horribly ugly. Ideally have some of it be enjoyable and root for wins or at least be okay with wins, which is not the case last year.

So yeah, once we get closer to the draft, I'll see how I feel, you know. But yeah, that day I was just so ready for something to go right. I felt really good about it. But I'm not going to make, you know, idle predictions. I don't have the data. Yeah.

I think this is a conversation we need to run it at some point. Yeah, I agree with you, Dante. Yep, yep. So are we good? Are we going to call it a night or what? Yeah, I think we're good to end to end here. Sounds good. If nobody else has anything to add. So as always, folks, appreciate you listening.

And we will catch you in the next episode.