Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 68: How can the Pistons give Cade Cunningham and the offense the best chance to succeed?

Episode Date: November 2, 2021

This episode recaps Cade Cunningham's first game, explores his fit with Killian, discusses the best lineup to field around him, analyzes the team's offensive struggles, and looks at the situation at the center position.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back, everybody to drive into the basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike, joined as always by a very happy Dante and I think it's somewhat content, Tommy, who's probably less upset than Dante is. I'm feeling okay. The start of the season has been a disaster, but that's fine. So, fellas, you got any thoughts before we launch right into it? You know, Mike, it's just a wonderful day to be a Lions and a Pistons fan. The Lions, they haven't won yet, have they?

Oh, no, no, why would they? Professional football team, why would you win? No, no, they lost 44 to 6 to the Philadelphia Eagles who are also garbage. And I thought, let's cleanse my palette with a nice Pistons game. And that was fun. Yeah, I mean, it was against the Nets. I don't think that was bound to go rather poorly in the first place, especially with the team that's still figuring,

it's still just figuring out so much. but all right so really today just that one we'll be talking about we'll talk of course about kate cunningham talk about killian hayes always a pressing topic well these days anyway we'll talk about a little bit about the fit between killing and kate that we saw what's wrong with the offense there's plenty to talk about there talk a bit about the starters versus the bench and then a little bit about the center position and then we'll close with some user submitted questions so just to start out biggest event, of course, of the week was the season and NBA overall debut of first overall pick, Cade Cunningham, didn't play many minutes. He was on minutes restriction, only played

17, and then was rested, or we're recording this about maybe like an hour or two after the loss against the net, so he was rested tonight on the second night of a back-to-back. So, yeah, Tommy, what did you think about Cade's debut? Well, for all the stat lines that people were posting about, I think he's going to drop 25, 5, and 5. I think everybody was wrong, but I don't think anybody's panicking because even though the stat line was pretty bad, the impact was felt. He was definitely scrapping, playing good defense. I think Orlando really game playing for him. They doubled him on his very first possession, and that's a welcome site because that's exactly what you want.

A guy like Kate is supposed to draw gravity and create advantages through that. And for a player with that level of passing vision, that's exactly what you want. He didn't hit his shots, but that's just going to come with time. He looked like a player who has missed the past month with an ankle sprain. Yeah, yeah, I'd say Kate has a certain gravity to him and not gravity in the traditional sense of, you know, like a Steph Curry has gravity. But gravity more so in the notion that you can kind of see the shadow of a star player, right? you can see what he's going to be. And I thought that, you know,

the description of him as a human connector was a good one. Because even though it didn't show up in the box score, I thought he played, I'm not going to say well, because one for eight or one for nine or whatever it was from the field is not a good game. And you definitely don't want to be making excuses for that. However,

I thought that the things that made him, the number one overall pick were on full display. So he was, in my opinion, about as close to a lockdown defender as someone can be in their first game. I thought he was excellent on that. end, both in positioning, quick hands, one-on-one defense hustle. He looked great. He's a very gifted passer as well. I thought there were a few sloppy turnovers, but that, you know, it comes with the territory. And I've said before, I'll say it again, the very best passers in the NBA experiment

and when they experiment, they're going to turn the ball over. So I'm not super concerned with the turnovers. I thought the passing was excellent otherwise. And yeah, like Tommy said, the shot may not have fallen, but Cade has actually earned, unlike some people on this roster, has earned the benefit of the doubt. He was an excellent shooter in college, and I really don't have any doubt that he's going to be an excellent shooter in the NBA, too. So when the shot starts falling, he's going to be really, really something special, in my opinion. I, well, I mean, it was a debut. I agree with Tommy. He looked like a player who really hadn't played five on five in some time. He'd had a few days of practice with the crews, but really in terms of getting worked up

to play in the NBA, I mean, obviously that wasn't there. They sent him out there to get his feet wet. Some things looked good. Other things did not. His defense, of course, looked good. This is overall bearing with the game. I mean, the guy's got excellent defensive IQ. I agree to shot will fall. So here's one thing about Cade. He's always going to be somewhat lineup dependent because, yeah, he isn't a kind of a guy who's just going to give the ball to and expect him to go blazing. into the interior and score because he's just not that kind of player. If he had that degree of athleticism, we'd be looking at, I mean, his entry in the NBA would have been heralded to the same extent as say Zion Williamson.

By the way, Zion, dude, lose some weight. We want to see you play in the NBA. Anyway, so it's basically he's going to need time to adjust to the NBA. There are those legitimate concerns about his ability to score in the interior, his ability to gain separation. He's a smart player. It's going to take time. I'm confident he'll be able to do it, but really the lineup is going to make a difference for him.

He needs guys around him who can move off the ball, guys around him who can shoot, you know, guys around him who can space the floor. I know shooting in space and the four, same thing, but man, was that like just a lineup in which he was set up to fail with Killian, who doesn't move off the ball will and doesn't shoot well. But Isaiah Stewart, we'll talk about this later, but he's basically been used as a traditional center by Casey that's far on the season. not spacing the floor, with Grant, who's just been terrible so far. Again, something else we'll talk about. And just, and this is like the least athletic lineup I've seen in a long time. So, whatever the case, yeah, we'll see how things go as the season goes on and he actually gets back in a game shape. But man, is it distressing that this thing, the first thing we really have to look forward to in a long time that the injury had to happen? You know, it's probably going to be a month

into the season before Kate is really in game shape. No, it's definitely disappointing. And even when we do have nice things happen to us, they can't be fully all the way nice. I think fans aren't really going to want to hear this, but this is sort of my take that I wanted to give. But if anybody was thinking about betting on Cade for rookie of the year, I probably wouldn't do it.

I just, I don't know, I can't shake this feeling that it's going to be minutes restrictions and in and out of the lineup for some unspecified amount of time as we still try to sort through this mysterious ankle injury. And it's going to take him a while to get into game shape. And this isn't meant to be an indictment on who he is as a player or who we all think he can become as a player. But I don't know if he'll be able to or at the very least be afforded the opportunity to put up the counting stats that are requisite for an award like that.

So if he wins it, great. Not really expecting it, which is kind of a bummer. But that was a bit of a side tangent, just something I've been thinking about. Yeah, it's definitely a narratives and highlights award, and neither of those things are on Cade's side right now. Scotty Barnes is he's putting up big numbers. Jalen Green is putting up pretty crazy dunks, even though he's not playing super well. Cade is just going to take some time, and that's maybe kind of the story of Cade Cunningham. Like one of the things that I had said prior to that game, and it didn't end up happening.

But I said at Oklahoma State, Cade Cunningham, he kind of takes his time in the first half, and in the second half, after he's kind of learned a little bit about his opponent, that's when he comes alive. And that's kind of what I expect him to be this season. I think it's going to take him a little while to get going. But I fully expect him to be a very smart player by mid-season. I think it just takes time and reps. I don't think that's something that he's really going to be able to do in the NBA as far as starting slope.

But we can bear in mind that, I mean, he was an 18-year-old in the NCAA. I mean, he's still growing at that point. and he was also basically relied upon to carry an offense at the age of 18 and 19. So that was more understandable in that context. Yeah, I would just say this is nothing to react to, and I don't think anybody is, but Kate is always going to be a guy who he just needs to get the reps. He needs to learn. And so much of what he is is recognizing patterns,

and you can't recognize patterns if you don't see them. So I expect him to get better. It's feel. Remember that we've talked about. on the show before this great ringer article, right, about feel for the game and how do you quantify that? And is it even a real thing? And yes, it's a real thing. If you've ever played a sport in your life, of course, feel for the game is real. And if anybody has it, it's Cade Cunningham. And it may sound pessimistic to the people listening, but this isn't an indictment of Cade.

I can't stress that enough. Like, I personally still feel like he's going to be a superstar player. I really do. But it just may not manifest itself, number one, immediately. And number two in the traditional ways that maybe a top number one overall pick would manifest those characteristics. So remains to be seen. I think he's going to need to be eased in. And of course, like Mike said, it's heavily dependent. His performance is heavily dependent on these lineups around him, which, judging by how we've started, not looking great, not looking great at all. So I don't know if that transitions a bit into how we feel the fit with Killian is. I was going to mention another Ringer article about why Killian Hayes should be the number one.

overall draft pick, Kevin O'Connor. Yeah, that's a nice transition. Yeah, he's set as Mayacalpus for that one. I think, obviously, the book isn't written on killing. I think it's fair to say that he's not going to be the best player in that draft. And, you know, that's fine. You don't think so? No, I mean, there's something in my head that that makes me doubt that he's going to be as good as Anthony Edwards or Will Mellibald, for example.

I still think Anthony Edwards has the highest ceiling on that team. And give me a second to talk about Anthony Edwards. I really think I'll even manage. is that guy a tank. And literally the most athletic player when he was tested at P3 prior to the draft, literally the most athletic player they had ever seen in that position. And he's just built like a rhinoceros. I mean, it's amazing. The guy last year, he was driving to the basket and ran right in the Stewart who was challenging him. And most guys would just bounce off of Stewart. Like Anthony Edwards just stopped in the air, but he wasn't put off of his balance at all.

It was really, it's just very impressive player. And I think he's, I think, still think he's going to be the best player from that draft. So unfortunately, the best player will not be Killian. Now, if killing could be the fifth player, a fifth best player from that draft, we'd be happy. But as far as, this is how he's looked. I mean, the last time we spoke on our last episode, he was a complete non-factor.

I feel like he's gotten a little bit better. And tonight he was at last, you know, at last, finally, finally, finally driving into the paint and accepting contact. And that was good to see. And he's quick when he decides to be decisive. So he's kind of on the up and up a little bit. But there's a long way to go. Yeah, yeah.

In the last episode, I kind of thought, like, he was maybe being more aggressive with his attacks. And I think right now it's starting to actually look like it actually means something in the NBA. He's actually getting to the whole. A few games ago, or to start the season, he would get, like, a foot in the paint, and then he would fade away from contact. He was definitely afraid of the bigs. But right now, it's not that he's, like, putting his shoulder into guys in the restricted area, but he is actually getting all the way to the cup. and that's progress.

I don't think that he's a starting point guard in the NBA right now. I think right now his greatest value by mid-season or maybe the end of the season would be a backup point guard. But progress is progress. And no matter how you feel about Killian, his best usage, whether it is a backup point guard, 3&D, whatever you want to call him, or as a trade piece, it all has to come from Killian getting better. So absolutely still rooting for him. And I'm happy to see this progress. Yeah, I, yeah, yeah, I don't want to, maybe it's the Lions fan in me that just wants to throw a wet blanket over everything today. I don't know. They just, they rip my heart out today, guys. Then the Pistons didn't make my day any better. But regarding Killian, I think Tommy you're absolutely correct in that his value is absolutely going to come from his improvement. And I think something just about the game tonight. I don't know. I was watching Durant. I was watching Hardin. Just absolute first ballot hall of famers, no question. And they, and they, and

They were just incredible tonight. And here we are, you know, people on Pistons Twitter getting extremely fired up about Killian who had like six points and an assist or something like that. And it's like, man, I do love the improvement. I do see the marginal steps forward into becoming a replacement level offensive player. But man, is he starting from a low point? And man, does he have a long way to go? I mean, even just turning into a broader discussion about the teams in general,

just the talent disparity between a Brooklyn Nets team who didn't even go to the finals last year and this Piston squad right now. It's going to take a lot. It's going to take a lot of internal development. It's going to take some external acquisitions. And, you know, Killian really was the face of this rebuild because he was the first pick of the Troy Weaver era. And we really need to see some improvement. And as much as I like to, you know, be optimistic about some marginally better performances as of late, he still got an extremely long way to go, in my opinion,

before he, number one, justifies his draft position, and number two, becomes an effective player. Oh, absolutely. I agree. He's got a long way to go. We are starting from a low point when we're commending a point guard for driving aggressively into the paint. Exactly. Yeah, really, like, for the most part,

this season, it's been really frustrating to watch him play, like really frustrating because you rarely even see NBA players in the floor getting minutes who are playing this badly. It was basically get a pick, drive into the interior, way. So oddly enough, he is actually shooting decently and catch and shoot threes. I'm very low volume. He has yet to hit one of his stepback threes. I don't think this is the best time for him to even be trying those, but who knows, maybe it is really nothing to lose. Whatever the case,

as long as the guy can get into the interior and break down defenses a little bit and bring that passing of his to bear on, that passing is very good. And that defensive, that offensive IQ is still very good, then at the very least, it'll be somewhat enjoyable to watch him. I guess really, that's really just for me something this season. I don't expect business to be good, of course, but I would like them not to be a train wreck and to be actually able to play real honesty good in his basketball, which they really haven't done so far. He is looking good on defense.

I mean, you can say whatever you want. I mean, the guy is competing on defense. He's got great hands. I think he had five steals tonight, if I remember correctly. Yeah, five. Yeah, he knows where to go. He's got good instincts as far as how a play is going to develop from the other side. He is strong.

I mean, he can get switched on by stronger players and still have a fair shot of holding up at least. So that much is good. You know, on the defensive end, I think there's much to be happy about. But, of course, the offense has to be there. You know, the offense is more important than the defense. And he's nowhere near there yet. Yeah. Mike, you brought up an interesting point or a stat.

This is something that we talked about a little bit last year. The catch-and-shoot threes versus the off-the-dribble threes. Killian has always looked better at the catch-and-chew. So you factor in Cade Cunnington. Everybody does for the most part. Yeah. Yeah, everybody is not Luke and a Trey Young or James Hard. Yeah.

Yeah. But Killian is like, last year it was like 12% on the non-catching shoots. So that's catastrophic. It's not even useful at all. Has your maybe suggested usage of Killian or what you want him to be right now. Like if you were Dwayne Casey or you're the front office and you're like, how do we maximize our players?

What should we do with Killian? Like the options are, you stick him in the Lonzo ball, three and D roll. Like you think, all right, let's put the ball in Cade's hands. Killian is off ball. He's moving around. If you can get him to set his feet and let it fly, maybe he's more useful that way. Or you say, no, Killian has to be used as an on-ball guy. His passing is one of his biggest strengths.

Do you continue, how would you use him right now? Like the options in my mind are Killian comes off the bench as the primary option. Killian starts as the primary option and Kate has to take a backseat or you have like a middling mix of those guys, but Killian still has an on ball role or Killian plays off ball. How would you use him? Because personally, right now I would send Killian to the bench. I think that's where he's most useful and that's, I think, how the most development will happen in that sense. you boost his trade value the highest. I think I have a feeling

Michael agree with me on this. I think this question is best tackled probably in what's going to happen versus what the, or sorry, what the front office wants to happen, so therefore what's going to happen? And what would actually be the optimal use of Killian?

So I completely agree with you, Tommy. I think his optimal use would be as the bench point guard, because I don't, well, yeah, he's a better catch and shoot three point shooter than he is off the dribble. Everybody is. I still don't think.

think he's a good enough three-point shooter to be considered three and D. And while his defense is certainly good, he was excellent tonight. Not even a world-class defender has a place in the NBA if they can't even be a replacement level on offense. So right now, he's just a hindrance to the starting unit. I think he's best, you know, utilizing his passing, utilizing his facilitating, maybe going up against lesser competition against other bench units. That's probably the optimal role for him.

But that's unfortunately not what I think is going to happen. What I think is going to happen is more of what we saw against Orlando, which is Cade sort of playing second ball handling fiddle to Cillian, which we'll get into, but I think that's a massive mistake. And you park Cade in the corner and you let Cillian kind of, I don't know, make menial passes around the perimeter, maybe attempt to some kind of three or some kind of, sorry, crappy floater, crappy layup. Sometimes the airballs him. It's pretty brutal. That's what's going on right now. And if they keep trying to force a square peg into a round hole, I'm not entirely optimistic about the outcome. But if I was Casey, I'd send him to the bench because that just coincides best with where he's at as a player right now.

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. I would say it kind of depends on how Cade looks coming in. I mean, if Cade maybe a couple weeks from now really is excelling on the ball, then the story changes. If you really need somebody next to him, it can handle it. I mean, it's either Kalyan or it's Corey Joseph, who after a horrible first three games, three or four, has done pretty well the last two. And like it or not, right now is the best point guard on the team. So about Kielan, watching him with Kade really just nailed home for me, even though, sure, it was a Kave just coming back from injury and obviously was not up to speed. And we know all that.

Just nailed home for me that I doubt it's ever going to be a viable pairing. I mean, you just cannot have a back court that is so lacking in athleticism. Kate is not an athletic player. He's got many strengths. He's not an athletic player. That's not necessarily going to hold you back as long as you've got the assets to compensate for it. But, I mean, do you see another back court in this league that has two below average athletes and succeeds? I don't think so.

There's also the matter. I mean, if you see Isaiah Stewart as your long-term center, then it's not somebody, you know, some sort of much more athletic center of the pistons are going to field. if you see Sadiq Bay is your long-term small forward. I mean, you've got such an unathletic lineup there, and you can say, okay, they're skilled, but that's not enough. I mean, athleticism is really important moving explosively off the ball, just gaining separation off the ball and catching lobs, whatever else.

I mean, athleticism provides a sort of spacing of its own because you get guys who are actually able to get away from the defenders off the ball and cut explosively to the baskets, get open for threes, get open for lobs, else. I mean, this is important. Athleticism is more important than ever in the NBA, and the athletic standard is higher than ever. So I just don't see them being able to work. I mean, the starting lineup, even if Kate had been moving at full speed, was so listless. I mean, these guys, just, too few guys who can actually gain separation off the ball. If you look at Lonzo, he is, you know, he was previously playing, I mean, in the back court last year, I think he was playing next to Eric

Bledso who's pretty much washed up, but, you know, still a decent athlete. And of course, Zion, who draws all of the gravity in the world because the heartbeat could basically not be stopped on the way to the basket. So I just don't see it. I don't see it. Or Wanzo, of course, yeah, playing you next to Zach Levine and hardly anybody is as athletic as Zach Levine. That guy's really something else. I already knew it. But watching him in those in those Bulls games, man, as he's something else as an athlete. So the best way, I think if K gets up to shows that he can do it as a ball handler. You put, I don't know, maybe Josh Jackson,

maybe your best bet at shooting guard as a guy who can at least slash to the basket and lose his defender. Because, man, just this roster as a whole is in desperate need of good athletes. Man, is it unathletic? These guys are just slow. Dante, who would you start next decade?

Oh, man. So if this is contingent on C to getting it done as a ball handler, I just, the options are so limited. Well, firstly, I think it goes without saying, Tommy, this is something you've been preaching since the offseason. The long-term ideal two is not on the roster right now. Are we all in agreement on that? Yeah, I had hoped for a much better start from Dialla, who just looks somehow even more raw than he'd hit last season. Exactly. And that's the problem with the question is that if you had asked me that, Tommy,

before tonight, I would have said Diallo. I think that if you're in the unenviable position of having to take Killian out because it just doesn't work and putting someone else in there next decade, I would have said put the best athlete, put the guy with the highest theoretical upside. But Diallo just looked lost out there, man. Diallo just looked lost tonight. And Frank, I mean, he's hit a couple threes, but I think he's been pretty bad this season. He's been, yeah, I didn't want to say awful, but awful.

He's non-existent out there. Maybe he'll pick it up. Maybe he'll pick it up. But to this point, I think he's been borderline unplayable. I think he's been that bad. And Josh Jackson, it's just those struggles with consistency for me. And he's also there again is someone who's going to really hurt your spacing in the starting lineup too. And that just can't happen, especially with Grant as ice cold as he's been.

So I don't see a good answer right now, Tommy. Like, I love you, brother. I want to give you one, but I just don't have a good answer. It's the best. I hate mine. Yeah. That's still. It's still Cory Joseph.

Yeah, there it is. It's still Corey Joseph. And here, I'm not kidding because, like, I think this is going to parlay into this bigger discussion about the offense, like the starting lineup versus the bench. But Cory Joseph is one of the few guys who actually plays like a vet.

It's because he is. And I think the lineup kind of lacks that right now. Corey Joseph is a positive player right now. I know there's a lot of hate for him. I attribute it partially to people don't want to blame the pieces that we're supposed to be building around. And Corey Joseph isn't. long-term piece. But I think he, even though he's had some bad games, he's had at least two

like bad games, but more often than not, he is a smart role player and he creates advantages. And if Kate is going to take his time being that player, I think it should be Corey Joseph. Because Josh Jackson, I agree with you. He's too inconsistent. And even though he has his good nights and sometimes he hits his shots consistently, he is not looking to move the ball properly. And I see potential in what they're trying to do with the offense right now. But it's just going to take time. But I don't think Josh Jackson is going to be that guy who can function within a movement offense. So that's my.

I'm talking the best of the worst, best of a bunch of bad options here. Yeah. I mean, the advantage of Josh Jackson is that he is very athletic. Yeah. Now, what you saw today was him falling victim to his own bad tendencies. He started the game off strong. And having hit some shots, he decided that he was just going to start taking a bunch of of bad shots. And he went from doing well from the field to doing badly from the field.

I've said it before about Josh. I'll say it again. If he can just hit his threes and it doesn't get into that stupid heat check mode, then he could be a useful player. And in that case, maybe he is the best fit next to Kate. Also strong defender again this season. He's been doing great on defense for what it's worth. And it is worth something. So like Cory Joseph, I don't think it's the worst idea in the world. If you want to have two handlers on the floor, he's still capable defender. If he can shoot his threes and he can do his thing on offense, great. You know, he's a capable player. I mean, I'd say unless he's playing up for the standard of last season, which was drastically better than his career baseline. His career baseline is solid point guard for a not

very good, solid backup point guard, excuse me, for a not very good team. Yeah, I don't think that'd be the worst idea in the world. Good off ball mover, constantly moving, a good defender. He's fairly good at setting up his teammates. And he's shifting penetration. Ket, excuse me, Kaelian can't really achieve that sort of penetration and it's desperately needed yeah i almost wonder i almost wonder if there's some validity to the what seemed to be such an out there idea but to the cade bay grant olinic and stewart lineup i know that's going to hinder the bench which i don't know how much we can afford to hinder the bench when the starters have been that bad but really if the goal like garza is your backup i and and yeah and therein lies the issue right is that garza is just not up to snuff right now

on the defensive end. I think he's been okay otherwise, but the defensive liability is a bit much for me right now. I'm not going to go so far as to say that he'll never be a useful NBA player, but he's got a ways to go. I just think that if this season is about maximizing Cade, you really want to surround him with guys who don't hinder his development. You want to surround him with the best guys possible.

And right now, it might be that unorthodox lineup, whether it hurts the bench unit or not. I don't have any concerns with Bay at the two, any concerns that I did have were pretty much put to rest with his improvements this season. I think he's such a good, smart, defensive player that his athletic deficiencies can be covered by his instincts, by his anticipatory movement. So I honestly, I think he can hang with, I mean, maybe not be a lockdown defender, but hang with two guards in the league, at least the average two guards.

So I don't think that's that crazy. I think it's maybe something we'll see. And if it's a long-term thing, I don't know, but it might be something. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, it's worth mentioning that we're still very early on in the season, and the star point guard, or Kate Cunningham just came back. The lineups have been, you know, all sorts of, like, shifted and messed up. Like, they, Hamadu Diallo didn't play against the magic, and he started against the Nets. Like, things are just weird right now.

They're trying different things. There hasn't been a lot of stability regarding the lineups, and I'm not going to criticize Casey for that right now. They're trying different things. That's what they should be doing right now. And given the fact that a huge part of it. part of the offense, you know, the initiator, the primary guy, wasn't playing up until now. That throws a wrench in your plan. So I'm not going to criticize Casey too much for the lineups, but I know that we have some thoughts on that. So I don't know if anybody has anything

more to say about Killian and Cade, but there are things to talk about. And now a quick word from our sponsor. Another week of the NFL season means another shot to win big at Draft King's sportsbook. New customers can bet just $1 on any NFL game and win $100. and free bets if either team scores a point. The last zero-zero tie in the NFL was actually in 1943, so I'd say this is a no-brainer. If sportsbook isn't available in your state yet, don't worry, Draft Kings will not leave you empty-handed. Everyone can play for huge cash prizes all season long with Draft King's Daily Fantasy Sports

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wager required. One per customer, restrictions apply. See drafkings.com slash sportsbook for details. And if you have a gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler. Yeah, I think this is a good way to transition on to basically, what is wrong with the offense right now. Now, the Pistons have one of the worst offense in the league, obviously. They've been a fairly capable defensive team, but offensively, they've been an absolute mess. I mean, I don't need to belabor the points that offense is how you win games.

It's nice that the rules have changed a bit, that the BS fouls are gone. They showed an infographic on the Pistons broadcast tonight about how free throw attempts have gone down for a bunch of previously high-volume free throw shooters who basically just sought out contact and got all sorts of tickey-tack. follows called. I think that from all I've seen. It's so great. Yeah, from all I've seen it.

Yeah, it's very good for the game. I agree. You just, you, you can play. It's just good that they're gone. They're not constantly going to the line for, you know, for nonsense fouls. Makes for a more fluid product, for sure. It makes just for more enjoyable as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. So basically what's wrong with the offense? I mean, there are many, many aspects of the answers of this question. I would like to bring up one statistic. And this is granted based on like the first five games. I mean, this statistic doesn't take into account tonight's game, but it wouldn't change a great deal based on tonight's game. So if you look at the four consistent starters, Grant Hayes, Bay, and Stewart, that four-man lineup in 84 minutes prior to the night again, though tonight did nothing to change it,

is a minus 24 net rating. That is, it is outscored by 24 points per hundred possessions. It is absolutely terrible in every respect. 40% true shooting. 40% true shooting. Now, if you look at the bench, if you look at the bench unit, the consistent bench players of Corey Joseph, Kelly Olinick,

Trey Liles, and Josh Jackson, prior to tonight, they had a plus 14 net rating. Now, I think it's just as a component of talking about what's wrong with the offense. I think it'd be an interesting exercise to just break down what we think is different between these two units, why one of them is working and the other one

is not. I have some thoughts on that. To start, Jeremy Grant, he is not playing within the flow of this offense. He's terrible overall. Yeah. Maybe I'll start with a bench. Right. Because I think they're a good baseline because I think they are trying to do a nice

motion offense. And if it works, it could be something really good because I think the best teams and a really good brand of basketball is ball movement, player movement, but that requires time and chemistry. things that this roster just hasn't established yet. So I'm not going to criticize them too much, especially since so much of the roster is really young. And I think part of the reason that the bench is doing it so well

is because they have Kelly Olinic and Corey Joseph, and those guys are actually playing this style of basketball really, really well. The offense looks so, it's not a coincidence that the offense looks significantly better with Kelly Olinic, and it doesn't just have to do with the shooting. Kelly Olinic is passing the ball really well, and he's cutting hard. He's playing very, very crisp, yeah, crisp basketball. I've been impressed.

He sets a screen, he rolls hard. It's exactly what you want from him. And that's my point. And then you go over to the starting lineup where it is just, I think Jeremy Grant has been my primary culprit. And I love Jeremy Grant, and I think he could be a lot better. But it's like he's trying to play like KD right now without KD level talent. And what I mean by that is he is settling for so many pull-up jumpers.

In the Orlando Magic game, his first three shots were isolation, mid-range pull-ups. And that's just not what... I don't think that's what Dwayn-Case is looking for, especially not early in games. So that's like... I guess that sets the scene a little bit. Like, that's the problem in my mind.

Yeah, that's... No, that's a good observation. And I really like that you brought up KD because I'm cited as saying, I've said it numerous times. I thought Grant at his best last year played pretty much exactly like a poor man's Kevin Durant. That's what I thought.

That's what I saw. The pull-up jumpers where he's just so tall and he's got such a high arcing shot that nobody can even hope to stop it, very smooth in and around the basket. And really just a high IQ player that could dazzle you a bit with some athleticism too and a really good shooter, but not this year, not this year. And maybe that wasn't highlighted so much in the first few games as it was now because we got to see him share the floor with Kevin Durant.

And he played exactly like Kevin does, but you're right, he just doesn't have the skill to back it up. And I almost wonder, and this is the nightmarish, red alert, worst case scenario. But I almost wonder if this can be attributed to his shooting, regressing to the mean. And I hope it's not that because he showed such tremendous improvement as a shooter. As an offensive initiator, just as a player in general last year, you know, I was convinced. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I got to hold the L here.

But I was convinced that his shooting had improved and was going to stay improved. But if last year it was just a fluke, yeah, I don't know. I think we may be in for some trouble because Jeremy playing, like he did last year with the shooting of this year is the least valuable player, like Mike said. Yeah, he's been real bad. It's, well, on the subject of Kevin Durant, I mean, you've got to watch the guy and be amazed. Like, with pretty much any other player, you play the best defense you can on him and you hope that he misses his shots.

With Kevin Durant, you play the best defense as you can on him and you hope he's just having a bad night. Because, I mean, just the shit that's about seven feet tall. The shots he can make are just insane. I mean, you want to talk about Grant being a poor man's Kevin Durant. I mean, Grant is like a severely indebted man of Kevin. Yeah, he's like before they entered the game, Kevin Durant. Yeah, it's like, it's like just a man, like mortgage up to his elbows. Oh, yeah, downtown mission soup kitchen Kevin Durant for sure.

Yeah, I didn't want to go for that one. But yeah, it's basically, yeah, you saw KD come in here and it's basically okay. I'm just going to come in and I'm going to take a fadeaway jumper. off the dribble that you can't possibly block and it's going to go in. I'm so sorry, but this is just the way it's going to be for you tonight. Like, the guy came, it's been, this has been told to death, but it's like this guy came from being like his, his, his toe being an inch shorter, his shoes being an inch,

an inch smaller away from going to the finals. So whatever the case. Yeah, with Grant, I mean, an interesting statistic for him, basically. If you look at last season versus thus far in this season, And last season in almost exactly the same number of minutes, he averaged 5.3 field goals per game off the drive. This season so far, that number is 3.8 may not sound huge, but it's significant. He's attempting a lot of really crappy mid-range offense.

Hardly anybody can make that mid-range offense efficient. He was bad at it last season. He's batted at this season. The guy just isn't driving hard at the basket like he was last season. And it was really as free throws that made him and just his offense within the restricted area that really made him efficient, though he is shooting about as many free throws this season. But there are times at which I feel like he's almost kind of phoning it in and just not wanting to put his head down and really drive harder than that.

Like the sort of like from three feet away layups that he was doing last year, for example, are just not there. He's playing differently. But I don't think it's just Grant. If you look at just the composition of the starting lineup as a whole, sure, you have Killian, who just can't penetrate. Not very well. he did a better job tonight, but not great.

Grant, who's not doing it. Bay, who's not a penetrator. He's a guy who can create some offense off the dribble, but he's not going to be a guy who drives in and breaks down defenses and creates openings to kick the ball out and get open threes. Stewart's not even being used as a spacer. I mean, I feel like just the makeup of the starting lineup is not good, really at all. So, and then, of course, whoever's playing a shooting guard, really.

That can vary. I just think the composition is bad. And I mean, you can compare that to the bench unit, which is moving extremely well. I mean, Bay is not a good off-ball mover. He's just not explosive. He's not a guy who can cut explosively to the basket. He's not a guy who can move around very quickly around the perimeter. Yeah, Grant is Grant.

Grant doesn't really move off the ball a ton. Hayes is not a good off-ball player. Stewart is not a quick off-ball mover. Now, you can look at the bench and say, Olinic is a good off-ball mover. You can say, sure, he's not that athletic, but he's a good off-ball mover. He's good achieving penetration.

Lyles moves well off the ball. Kojo moves well off the ball. Josh Jackson moves well off the ball. These guys are just running around and getting opportunities open. And then in the starting lineup, you have Jeremy Grant taking pull-up mid-range jumpers, Killing Hayes, not doing much of anything.

And Sadiq, really, if he wants to get anything going of his own accord, he needs to really stunt the offense in the process. So, yeah, I don't really know how to make it work in the starting lineup. Yeah, I don't know how to make it work either. And I'll tell you this, though, Kate is not a magic elixir or a secret formula to fix this. I think he'll help. I think he'll certainly unlock some dimensions to the offense that were previously inaccessible.

But the starting lineup, as it's currently constructed, whether you add Kate to it or not, is just not optimal. So we're really going to need some serious internal development. And like I said earlier, maybe some external help to get things going because right now, I don't know. I don't know. It looked better with Kate out there, but he's not just going to fix everything by himself. Yeah, I would like to bring either Corey Joseph or Kelly Olinic into the starting lineup just because I think they do so much in the way of setting a good example as to what I think the coaching staff is going for. I think part of it is just veterans.

They know what they're supposed to be doing. Maybe they're more coachable. the game comes to them more easily after all this time they've been in the league. I don't know what it is, but it's clear right now that the current starters haven't figured that out. I think part of it is chemistry. I am aware that it's been six games and these guys haven't played together for a long time. Three of these guys can't even buy booze. But it's just going to have to come along.

I think you could maybe accelerate that process a little bit with some veteran leadership, somebody who's leading by example. Dante, you mentioned that lineup where you swap out this mess of shooting guards and you slide Sadiq down to that position and you put Kellyan as the power forward. Yeah. It's an interesting idea. I don't even mind Grant as a small forward. I just...

No, me neither. Me neither. I don't know. I don't know if it would take too much away from the bench. I don't like the idea of messing with their chemistry, but I guess I'm suggesting that anyway. But what I don't want to do is pull Stewart from the starting lineup because I am really happy with the defense,

and I don't want us to lose that yet if we don't absolutely have to. But on the other hand, Stuart hasn't been that good. I know we're going to talk about that a little bit later, but there's got to be somebody leading by example, and I just don't know if Cade should be expected to do that straight away. But at the same time, I think chemistry will be a part of that. The issue is if you take Kelly off the bench, that you're basically going to have to play, well, you can play Trey Liles at the center, I suppose, otherwise it's Garza. Now, I mentioned earlier a couple episodes ago that I thought it was a very strange decision on the part of Troy Weaver to not have a real bona fide third string center, whether if you want to play Kelly and Isaiah Stewart together or just if one of them gets injured.

Right now, it's Garza. Garza has not looked good. really he's been as advertised. I mean, his foot speed is not good at all. I can't really defend in space. And he's been pretty ineffectual as a role man and on offense in general. Really, all I can do is take spot-up threes and he can't really do that too well yet. The post game is non-existent, really, as we predicted it would be, because you just, not many guys can do that in the NBA.

It's hard to even get him the ball. He's just not quick enough. So, you know, not even strong enough to establish. position, unfortunately. So that's the problem. Then you're giving big minutes to Garza and Garza will unhinge the entire bench unit. So, you know, as much as I've pilloried, uh, Isaiah Hartensstein in the past, I kind of feel like, okay, keep Garza on that two-way contract and I don't know, sign Hartenstein or some of the, some of the center who can at least just play somewhat respectable rim defense and finish somewhat capably in the restricted area. But I don't think, I don't feel, I don't

feel like the Pistons have the option to start both Olinic and Stewart right now. I think that option just doesn't exist. Well, let me ask you guys this because I think it's an interesting question. I agree with you, Mike, that playing Garza heavy minutes would pretty much derail the second unit's defense at least until when and if some significant. Yeah, and the offense. When and if some significant improvements are made, that's totally viable and true. My question is, like, does it matter? And why should I care? Like, we're one in five. We haven't looked competitive in a handful of these games and there's only been a handful of games. And I almost wonder if putting the optimal offensive lineup around Cade when he does come back in full capacity

is more important than having a competent bench unit because having a competent bench unit right now isn't doing anything for us in terms of winning games. And it's not doing anything for us in terms of player development because all of our developmental players are in the starting lineup. So it's like, who cares? Why does it matter? That's my question. Because you don't want, it's not good for anybody if the team is a complete train wreck. I know that that's a significant right now either. I know that, but I know it's a significant departure from how I was speaking about a year ago when I was upset that the person had signed Grant and Plumley. But yeah, it's not great right now, but I just, I don't think you can put guards out there for significant minutes and really

play a proper NBA game. I mean, the guy just can't play defense right now. And he can barely play offense. There's very little he can do. And hopefully that'll change, but for now, they're stuck with it. So I see. Yeah, at Iowa, they played zone to hide this. I don't think that we want to change the makeup of our defensive lineup so we can make a two way, a third string center work, especially when the bench unit as it is, is like one of our strengths. And even though that's not, that doesn't really instill a lot of confidence in what the team is right now. I just, I don't think that that's a good decision. Yeah. I'm just not sure what you do at this point. I mean, it's too early to say, okay, well, we need to make changes to the roster, of course. But there are some issues I see that it's questionable as if they can be fixed

without simply just the team beginning to shoot much better from three point range that would solve a lot of problems, but you can't bank on that. Also, the pistons just aren't getting a lot of good opportunities. I mean, you think about the guys who are actually getting open threes, like Olinick, Wiles, who else? Pretty much nobody, I think. I mean, that's just that's a symptom of the offense generating no defensive breakdown. But, I mean, one thing, at least in the starting lineup that I think bears mentioned,

and I know this moves on to the subject of. the centers. This moves under Stuart and Olinick. And we talked about this before last episode, I think, or maybe it was the episode before about preseason. For whatever reason, Dwayne Casey has decided that Isaiah Stewart should just be a traditional center for now, which I think is an utterly bizarre decision. Because if Stewart is not able to stretch the floor, he's a very pedestrian and is an undersized and very pedestrian traditional center. He's just not really going to offer you a great deal on offense. And like last season, in the last 30 games alone, I think he took 70-something shots.

If I remember the stat correctly, I looked this up yesterday outside of the paint. Through five games up until up through the game against Orlando, he had attempted three in five games. I think he attempted two more tonight. But a steward who can stretch the floor as well as play good defense. You know, when he shut well from mid-range last season also, you know, that's a valuable, a valuable player on offense because he's good at scoring the interior as well. Isaiah Stewart playing traditional center and providing no spacing. Not so good.

Not so good at all. So maybe he's just not up to speed right now and Casey wants him to focus on his strengths. But I think it's been ugly with him offensively in the starting lineup. Yeah. So I guess this kind of takes it on to Kelly. What would you guys do with him? which for me, I've gone back and forth on this because, like, just yesterday, I thought, okay, Kelly Olinic is a much better offensive player and he moves the ball very well.

Isaiah Stewart has really, I can really only think of one good kickout pass that he's had. Usually when the ball goes to Stewart, he has good interior position. Like, that's one of the things he prides himself on. He fights for it. And he hasn't been shooting it poorly from within, but the problem is right now he's not contributing a ton to the team offense. He's really, he's really just managed to get his own. And right now, I think what the team needs is a guy who can move the ball more effectively. And that would be Kelly Olinick. On the other hand, Isaiah Stewart is legitimately anchoring a good defense, his drop defense and the way he picks his

spots when guys are driving, especially within pick and roll coverage. I don't know if the stats back this up, but from my own eye test, I see a lot of, at least potential there. I think he, he covers that very, very well in terms of his foot speed and just his movement. It's difficult to give that up. The team is legitimately establishing a defensive identity, and I don't want to lose that. So right now, it's not even the shooting that's the biggest thing to me. I want to see Isaiah Stewart work within the offense, and part of that is shooting, but a bigger part of that, I guess in my mind, would be keep the ball moving,

because there's just nothing of that right now in the starting lineup. and Isaiah Stewart is as guilty of that as anybody. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's just one aspect of what's been a very, very ugly offense in the starting lineup. Like I said, I question if he's really physically up to speed. He doesn't really look like he did last season as far as his movement on offense, and that's an important thing. Last season, he was constantly dashing around, just very light on his feet and just very bouncy, well, bouncing in the sense of just constantly changing directions and moving here and there.

And he's been pretty sluggish so far. So maybe that will change with further conditioning. I mean, his season, his offseason really got derailed by that ankle injuries. He's sustained with the select team. When it comes to Kelly, I mean, it's something to take into account is that Olinic is on the floor a lot against opposing bench players. So that does really enhance his ability to contribute. You put him in the starting lineup and suddenly, yeah, not only is he playing against

more difficult opposition as an offensive player. And I've been impressed with where he's done with the bench unit. I mean, the guy is, he's good at attaining, excuse me, he's good at achieving penetration often for the use of pump fakes. People will bite. And he hasn't shot too well, but he's a threat at least. And then he'll drive into the interior. And from there, he is good at finding the open man on the perimeter.

And like against starter level centers or just starter level defenders, he might not really have quite the same success. But there's also the question of defense, Kelly Olinick is not going to anchor a successful defense. He is just not. He is a below average room protector. He's a below average interior defender. He is something of a switch risk. So I think that you're really reducing his effectiveness by putting him in the starting lineup. And I mean, ideally, Stewart will go back to being able to shoot as well as he could last season in the middle of the season. So, yeah, I would keep it as is. I know that there was talk about

not that there was talk, like the Pistons made their comeback against the 76 was late with Kelly Olinican. He was playing against Drummond basically the entire time until Embed came back in and put the game completely out of reach. Drummond, I'll just take a moment to delight in the fact that he was horrible. I think he played like 18 minutes, had two points, like five turnovers and followed out. And yeah, I definitely have a good deal of resentment at that guy. kind of half joking. So, all right, final thoughts on this topic before we move on to user submitted questions. Yeah, I have a pretty good, pretty decent feeling anyway about Kelly maybe being in the running for six men of the year.

I think he's been that good. I think he's been excellent on offense, obviously, but it's like he said, Mike, he's never going to anchor a successful, prolific defense. Like I think Stewart maybe has the potential to do. And I'm even hesitant to say that Stewart can ever be. be as good on offense as Kelly is right now. But I think that with Cade, for example, the hope is that Kate is that superstar point guard. If you have Cade in the starting lineup and he reaches his maximal potential, I think it benefits us more long term to have the defensive anchor in there instead of Olinix. So my idea is about sliding Kelly in at the four for this season, you know, maybe for some

specialty lineups aside. I think long term he's best served off the bench. And I think that it's going to be really interesting to see how Stewart progresses because I do think he can be a really special defensive player and my thoughts on him on offense haven't changed. I'm going to come to his defense a little bit because I still think that his touch around the rim for someone his age is special. I think he's high IQ and I think he's going to be a good shooter. I think he's going to be. And that's based primarily on the way that his stroke looks and it's free throw shooting. You know, he's a decent free throw shooter for his position and for his size. I think that'll translate to shooting.

So long term, I like Stewart there, and I like Kelly off the bench. Short term, maybe we can mess with those lineups a little bit, but overall, I'd say it's set up decently right now. I know Tommy had some more thoughts on this, but that's sort of where I stand. Yeah, I guess just to close, it's worth mentioning to me that this lineup hasn't really had, none of the lineups have had real stability or consistency. You know, we haven't, Kate just got back. He played 19 minutes, and he's going to be a key piece of what this team is going to be.

There's a butterfly effect there. You know, guys are going in and out of the starting lineup, in and out of the bench lineup. Some guys are playing one night and not playing at all the next. I think the team just needs time. The offense that they're trying to get going, it's ambitious. And a big part of it is just going to be establishing chemistry between the guys who are on the floor with you. And that's just going to come from reps. So I think they need to stick with the lineup, stick with the next.

identity and then just learn to pass the ball. I would just like to see a little more effort. I wouldn't even mind like a lot of turnovers and truthfully they are still getting a lot of turnovers, but I wouldn't mind it as long as it's I can see it leading to something

bigger and better. And I think it will. You know, I've seen a few just offensive miscommunications. A guy cuts and the ball sails back behind him because he's not where he was a second ago. I think those are going to get cut down and we're going to see a lot more useful offense. even the passes that the guys are throwing right now.

A lot of times guys are catching it at their shoes, at their knees off to the side. And that's just going to come with practice. So it's something worth considering. We just need time. So that's what I would say about the offense. I'm going to try to reserve my judgment a little bit and wait for these guys to establish themselves a bit more. Yeah, I just have two final quick thoughts. Number one is that we talked a lot less.

last season about Isaiah Stewart being a lot more than his stats and making just the players around him better, including on offense, and we really just haven't seen that this season. I'm just, I'm fairly convinced he's just not up the speed. Number two, Kelly O'Neick, as far as six-man has got a long way to go. It's going to have to score a lot more points than be a lot better from a three-point range is only at 30% right now. So hopefully that'll improve. I know that's, I'm pretty much just saying, well, this is how I feel and let's move on.

Feel free to respond to it. Otherwise, move on to user-submitted questions. Yeah, yeah, we got a couple good ones. I think I'll start with probably the most pressing. Profit wants to know how everybody's Halloween was. Let's see. I didn't do anything at all, which as much as it's been on Halloween for a long time. Yeah, same.

I watched a basketball game. Yeah, I watched the Pistons. That's good. Did either of you guys go to a party? I went to a party. I was a Stormtrooper. I don't know if you saw it in the Discord there, but that was fun.

That was fun. I enjoyed myself. Yeah, so there's that one. Very pressing. Next up, yeah, a lot of questions here about the shooting guard position or more specifically the two. Yeah, here's a good one. If you were forced to start one of Frank Jackson,

Josh Jackson, or Hamadu Diallo, and we tackled a version of this earlier, but if you were forced to start one of those guys for the rest of the season, who would it be in why? So in a universe in which Frank Jackson gets back to like 40% or above him three, then maybe you start him in that situation. He is a hit on defense compared to, say, Josh Jackson or even Corey Joseph. But if we're assuming that he will not be an elite three-point shooter,

then I would say Josh Jackson. I've got some confidence that he'll get his catch-and-shoot threes in order, and he is a good defender and a guy who moves. well off the ball. So he would be my choice. Also, I mean, then you have a lineup of five switchable defenders if you have K'd at the point card. Yeah, I'm going Frank Jackson. And it's really more because one, Hamadu has been invisible and his three ball is not falling. It doesn't look like it's going anywhere soon. And I don't think we should wait for that right now, at least not in the starting lineup. Josh Jackson hit on it a little bit earlier.

I just don't think he's going to play within the offense. I think he's going to kind of be a walking hot hand fallacy on some nights. And he's just going to, search for his own and I don't think that's going to be good for what the offense is trying to become. So I think Frank Jackson takes the least away from Cade Cunningham's game and that's the most beneficial to the long term right now. I don't think Frank Jackson is a long term solution. But I think in terms of development and maximizing spacing, I have faith that he'll get back to Frank Jackson things eventually. Yeah, I don't I don't have faith in Frank getting back to it. there are some guys in the NBA who have a long leash because they have a track record and they're guys who don't.

Frank doesn't have a long leash because Frank doesn't have a long track record. So when he gets into a really poor start to the season like this, it's not, oh, Frank is playing poorly right now? Is Frank a bad player? And he might be. So I'm losing faith in him steadily and more and more by the game, quite honestly. So I'd love for the answer to this to be Hamadu Diallo. and maybe if you ask me a few days ago it would have been. But I'm probably going to have to go with Josh Jackson.

I think he offers the best blend of, you know, defense, athleticism, and theoretical shooting because some nights he's a decent shooter. So yeah, I guess we all had slight variations on that. And then I guess we can wrap up with this one. This is a good question. Why do we sub out all of our starters at the same time? I think Dwayne Casey just likes continuity. Well, actually, in the first place, it's not actually the case.

They generally don't sub out all the starters at the same time. Usually Bay and Grant stay on longer than the other three. But in the event that they are all subbed out at once, I think just Casey likes to run distinct units. I believe he liked to do the same thing last season. Even at the beginning of the season, you'd often see Rose and Rose, somebody else, and then Stewart Bay. and goodness gracious, who else was it, whatever the case.

Yeah, he did much the same thing last season. Yeah, there was a lot made by Dwayne Casey to start the season about how there is a starting group and there is a second group. And I think he just wants to preserve the chemistry between those guys, which, again, kind of pertains to what we were talking about with, there just hasn't been a lot of continuity because we haven't been able to see those two lineups established. So maybe that'll come along, but I think that's what it is.

I think Dwayne Casey just wants to establish chemistry. And part of that is going to be playing with a lot of the same guys for a lot of your minutes. Yeah, I think his rotations in general serve to upset the fans. That's what I think they're for. A lot of the time, there's no real rhyme or reason to them. I guess you could say continuity. But yeah, I don't know if it's fully accurate that all the starters come out at once. I notice it is.

It is? No, it's not. Yeah, I was going to say, because. Bay and Grant stay out longer and sometimes Bay even stays out longer than grants. So I mean, yeah, not entirely accurate. When they do all come out at once, it's just odd. And I think it serves whoever it was who specifically asked that question, I think Casey is targeting you and he's trying to upset you. That's what I think. Fair enough. All right, folks, that'll be it for tonight's episode or today's episode or whenever you listen to it. As always, thank you all for listening. We'll catch you in the next episode.

Thank you.