Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 69: The emergence of Cade Cunningham & the struggles of Jerami Grant

Episode Date: November 9, 2021

This episode discusses the emergence of Cade Cunningham, Jerami Grant's rough start to the season, and Saddiq Bey's ongoing new role on offense.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ready to drive into the basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike, joined as always, by Dante and Tommy. Fellas, you have anything to say for yourselves before this episode begins. I was unnecessarily awful. I don't know how I feel about that introduction. Yeah, I was, I mean, I always just feel like I say, you know, fellas, how you doing? But that's less interesting than me just being unnecessarily aggressive. Very accusatory.

Yeah, I feel like it's like any last words. Yeah, exactly. I guess the answer is no. I don't have anything to speak for myself at this point. Now, my first question, how dare you? Who do you think you are? What gives you the right? Exactly.

So all that aside, let's want straight into it with the topic, which I know everybody is talking about and you all want to hear, which is a job. which is Josh Jackson. I'm just kidding. Kate Cunningham. So we finally, the last couple games, gotten to see Cade Cunningham actually really run the offense, take on that sort of heliocentric creator rule.

I keep using that term. It's not mine. And it sounds weird because it refers to the sun. But nonetheless, I like how it sounds. So yeah, these last two games, he's really been that high possession, high usage sort of point guard. Everybody saw him as being,

when he was drafted in the NBA. And it's been encouraging. Yeah, absolutely. I just, I need to make an apology straight off the bat because one or two episodes ago, I said that I thought, and I said this actually dating back into the offseason, my suggestion for how to bring Cade into the NBA was start Corey Joseph next to him. And what that does is it takes Cade off ball. And what I expected was Cade's shooting is going to translate really well.

And his playmaking is going to struggle a little bit. and it's ended up being the opposite. I think part of that is the injury and the fact that him shooting with his legs doesn't look like he's back to normal on that yet. But as far as generating offense and creating advantages, I think he's already the best on the team. Like the offense is just night and day with Cade Cunningham and it's so much better. Yeah, there are a lot of skills of his that I think have translated even sooner than I expected them to.

And it's funny because, yeah, I think we all thought shooting was going to be one of them. and that just really is not translated at all. But I think it's coming. But as far as being like the number one creation option, he's for sure the best. I mean, it's almost startling how easily he generates space. And for someone who had all these,

you know, supposed red flags about them where it's like, oh, he's not athletic. He can't blow by guys. He can't break his defender down. It's not necessarily true. I just think that he's so crafty with the basketball that none of his shots are like,

at least not from what I've seen. None of his shots are like smothered. You know, he's always got the requisite space to get off a decent shot. Now it's just a matter of sinking them. So he's really impressed me with his ability to be a go-to scorer. And obviously all of those things are heightened when you consider the fact that he's such a good playmaker too. So once the shooting starts coming around, pretty, I think we're looking pretty good. Yeah, it's definitely been interesting to watch.

he absolutely looks like he's ready to run an offense at the NBA level. I've just been very impressed with his poise, his court vision, and just how he conducts himself. And of course, once those threes start falling, you can see a player who is very difficult to cover. You basically have to face guard. And we saw at Oklahoma State that he's even able to make threes through that sort of very tight coverage.

We saw it once last night. Yep. It's a very, very nice shot to have. It was giving me some very unfortunate unfortunate memories. I was at the 2014 Elite 8, Michigan State versus Yukon and Chabazz Napier, was able to make those shots just through really difficult coverage. And MSU ended up losing, you know, thanks, you know, thanks Keith Appling. Anyway, that aside, for those few of you who probably know what I'm referencing, or maybe not so few. Yeah, Kate just, it just looked very, very good. And I agree,

it's been absolute night and day with him running the offense, especially given that the comparison was killing running the offense, man, was that just an absolute and unmitigated disaster. But nonetheless, it's definitely been very, very enjoyable to watch. I agree when it comes to get in the basket, he's actually done a pretty good job, but a lot of that is his strength. It was really fun to watch him blow past Matisse Stuyball.

I mean, that's not an easy guy to get past. But he just goes to the outside, but he's strong enough to keep himself from really being pushed to the outside. He's got that seven-foot wingspan. So he really hasn't actually struggled at all at scoring at the rim. When he's gone down the middle, he's had a little bit more in the way of trouble. But it's just been great to watch. And, yeah, the shooting, I've no doubt, will get there.

It's definitely worth remembering. There's a guy with no training camp, no preseason, who just basically came straight in the NBA with one game in a minute's restriction. And it was a little, you know, a little spooky to see him, or not spooky, whatever you want to call it. I got Halloween on the brain, but it was a little weird to, see him struggle that much from three-point range, but I wasn't really concerned at any point. Yeah, I just want to go back to what you said about him getting into the pain with strength.

Definitely, he is taking advantage of his frame, but another thing that I see him doing, and this was something that if you watch that play where he took Kevin Durant one-on-one from the top of the arc, and he broke him down, he did it with body control. And one of the things that people have, maybe not criticized, but, I don't know, know, brought up as a concern with Cade Cunningham is ball control or handle, I guess, is probably the more all-encompassing term. And I feel like you have to break Cade down into two parts because his ball control is probably the biggest issue right now. Like yesterday, there was a turnover where Bruce Brown got him to push the ball away from him, or like push the ball away from him,

his body, and he lost it out of bounds. And Bruce Brown played really good defense. And I think it really should have been off Bruce. Anyway, I'm just rambling at this point. But Cade Cunningham's body control with the ball in his hands is excellent. Like these little hesitation moves, lookaways. He just, when people try to read his body to defend him, he uses that to his advantage. Like he's breaking down guys. He's freezing guys.

And they just don't know what he's about to do. And he's just so good at that. And I know I'm like having trouble like saying what he's doing. doing, but it's just something that you have to look for. And that's like something that I noticed yesterday when he broke down Kevin Durant. And I think there was another instance of it where he like froze somebody, but it's just these little body movements and look away. Yeah, was one of the best defenders in the league. Yeah. Granted, he was seeing Kate for the first time, but nonetheless. Right. And it's just exceptional. I'll, I'll take a crack at articulating it

Tommy. I know, I know what you're getting at. And I think it's, it's good that we've all brought it up because if there's anything that Cade surprised me with, and I was as high on Cade as anyone could be, but if there's anything that he surprised me in particular with, it's his aptitude for scoring around the basket. And it's like I said, you know, for these supposed red flags, he's really putting a lot of those concerns to rest. And I think when you talk about body control,

it's more of to me that he's too fast for the bigger forwards and the bigger centers. You know, he's too quick. He's too fast for them. and he's too big for the smaller guards. So it's almost always a mismatch by the time he's in the air, actually trying to put the ball in the basket because he's so skilled around there.

His body control is so, it's just excellent. So he's able to get to the basket because he's a mismatch for who's taking him to the basket. Then when he's up in the air trying to score, his body control is just incredible. His skill, his touches, it's just outrageous, especially for someone who just turned 20. So I think that because,

his tool set is so diverse, he can really adjust his drive based on who's defending him. And it's almost always a basket. And that's great to see. It really is. And I think, too, another underrated aspect of that is the fact that players are recognizing this quickly. Players are recognizing that they're going to have a tough time stopping him. And so he's drawing a lot of fouls right off the bat. And I know that was a big concern was that K doesn't get to the line, but he's just such a smart player that I refused to believe that he wouldn't find some way to exploit his defenders, the fact that he's got these physical mismatches on them, and find a way to draw fouls and he has. And it certainly helps that he looks to be not just a good free throw shooter, an elite, like,

E-L-I-T-E, elite free throw shooter. So put all these things together, and man, he's just, he's blown me away. He seems to be getting better and better and better each game. And we sound like a broken record at this point. but once that shot starts to fall, he's going to be incredible, incredible. So I'm so happy with what we've seen so far. Yeah, it's definitely been exciting. And part of me is like, man, you know, we can see what this guy's going to be.

Just once he gets himself back in a game shape and really regret that he wasn't able to just come straight out of training camp, straight at the preseason and just really get the ground running. Yeah, just come charging out the gate and you can see what you can do right off the bat. Well, he still looks tired. When he's running up and down the court, you can see almost these laborious movements like he's not used to the car. He doesn't have his cardio up yet, you know, so that's coming. Obviously, it's not a matter of if. It's a matter of when he gets his leg under them. Yeah. Yeah, the shooting. The shooting also. Sure. Just got to have something to do with it. So yeah, I regret that we didn't get to see that. It's definitely been nice to see him work through adversity. He absolutely does not lack for confidence. He's just kept shooting. That's the kind of mentality you have to have in the NBA, well, provided you're a good shooter. Otherwise, you can be Josh Smith and continue to believe in yourself. And really persevere your weight to 25% on the season for three-point range. But that's obviously not what we're talking about here. Yeah, if you're a good shooter, you have to be able to shoot through the slumps. He's just getting his legs and still getting his legs for his shooting legs under him, so to speak.

And yeah, so I regret that we didn't get to see that. But hopefully we'll be able to see it. Yeah, but it's still early on, though. He'll probably. It was early on, yeah. 70 plus games. I just wanted to see him. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no.

It would have been nice to see him explode on the gate. It was frustrating not to see it immediately, but because the injury happened so soon, it's not like it disrupted his rhythm. He is just now going to get back into the rhythm and hopefully have an injury-free season, right? So we're going to get to see a lot of Cade. Yeah, so I just,

but trying to find the bright side. Yeah, his defense was, is also, I think, been quite impressive. And that I'd say at this point, He's definitely a plus defender in his first three games in the NBA. That's been very nice to see. Also, you can really just see him developing into the sort of on-court leader. I mean, even at this point, and even in Summer League, you can see him making directions.

I think on both ends of the floor. Yeah. Do you see him calling out on the floor when guys, when other people are open on the perimeter? And he'll look to who has the ball and he'll point to them. Like he's not just looking to get himself open. He is like facilitating even when he's off ball. It's incredible. I don't think I've seen that.

At least I haven't noticed it before from any other player. That is especially so exciting to me. And then I think he's leading the huddles. Like, he's the vocal leader. It's fantastic to see. Like, this is everything that we wanted. And the only thing that hasn't come about yet is the shot. If the shot, if he was shooting like league average, the hype around him would be insane.

But people are just box score watching. And it'll come with time. It's just, it's been slower because the shoot. shooting isn't there. You know, points per game, that kind of stuff, that's what's going to get you notice the easiest. So once that comes along and people see like everything that's coming along with Kate, I think it's going to pick up. Yeah, it's, it's exciting to see. Definitely his, you saw his mentality as a leader on display in Summer League. And that's part of the reason why he was drafted. I mean, it's, I know that Troy Weaver called him a human connector. It wasn't

just about his basketball skill. And it wasn't just about his basketball IQ, which is also excellent. And I think to see the full display of that, you need to be watching him off the ball. Like even just going off the ball to set a certain sort of screen that will free up a teammates, you know, one or two moves ahead. It's just a, he can have an impact even when you're not even seeing it. So just that level of basketball IQ, the work ethic, the leadership, and the grit. I mean, you can put that all together into a special package that goes above and beyond just battle. basketball talent, excuse me, just talent on the ball or just, just talent in the ways that you can

immediately see. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, they're definitely excited. And it's, I mean, in contrast, I mean, those first, especially that first game where it was like, man, I was just desperate for something to be excited about with the Pistons because just like, everything went wrong in the first, like, five or six games in season, everything, nothing, nothing at all went right.

No. And to see Kate step on the court and look really bad in his first game, I wasn't concerned. I suppose I wasn't like, oh my God, you know, what people wrong about this guy. I was just like, come on, man. I just need something to be happy about here. Yeah. Yeah. This is so distressing.

Yeah. We ask for so little, you know, we ask for so little. We receive so little. But it's nice to see that those first couple games were very obviously just knocking the rust off, probably a little bit of nerves. And this is where this is probably where my thoughts end for the time being. but I think really the only aspect of Cade's game itself that's lacking is the handle. I know we were just talking about that recently because the shooting isn't lacking.

He hasn't shot well, but he is a good shooter. The handle is a skill that is not really up to what it could be. And I think a big part of that is the fact that this is a guy who played forward for the vast majority of his life. I don't think he transitioned to point guard until he was 15 or 16 years old. And so it's important to remember that his handle, you know, as you watch it, as you watch and play, is sort of improving in real time or maybe developing is a better word. But this is not someone who's been a ball handler for his entire life. So you can only imagine that that one aspect of his game that's lacking is going to functionally improve just by virtue of handling the ball more and more and more. And if Casey's recent rotations or any, you know, evidence to what it's going to look like, Kade's going to have the ball in his hands a lot.

So he's going to get a chance to hone this skill. And then that just only means good things for him, good things for the team, good things for us. Yes, I'm really happy you brought up Casey because it's finally happening where Kate Cunningham is the guy who's running the offense and they're running a lot more set offense for him. They're really helping him on the perimeter. A lot more screens, a lot more pick and roll action. And that's a far cry from what we saw early on. And I think that I still subscribe to the idea that they were just practicing motion offense

where if you don't have Kate. Cunningham on the court, you can still generate opportunities. It's just it takes time. But now that Cade is here and he's taking on this role, things are just night and day as far as like how we're looking to generate offense and opportunities. They really, credit to Casey. He's doing exactly what everybody wants. He's given the ball to Cade Cunningham.

And Cade Cunningham is delivering. Yeah. I mean, Casey, you know, wait, we has been putting out Twitter polls. It's like, what do you think I should do in game? Should I do this? I'm just kidding. that would, I mean, as much as you would say, well, Casey makes all these mistakes and and yada, yada.

I mean, that would be an absolutely horrific idea for any coach. I mean, yeah, what's governed by fan consensus here? Unless the three of us got to vote. If the three of us got to vote, that's a championship this year. Yeah, I mean, there are some coaches. I'm sure you've seen this in football. I mean, you watch far more football than I do where it's like, and we all, we saw this with Stan Van Gundy.

It's like, okay, the mistakes this guy is making are horrendously obvious. And, you know, it's kind of a problem when. fans can look at this and say, you're doing this wrong, and they're absolutely right. And you keep doing it, but I digress. In any case, yeah, it's another aspect about the last couple games that I found enjoyable is that, you know, it's like these kind of players are the, these are the kind of players, these sort of big creators or just, or even just very heavily on-ball guys who can, around whom you can run an entire offense.

These are the kind of players that the league functions upon, really. And it's just so nice for the pistons to have one of the, you know, to have a guy who looks like he's going to be one of them. But speaking of Casey, yeah, we'd be talked about how he did, you know, final, I guess it was only in Cade's really second game, that he, or is this, like, does he play four games or three? He's played four, right? Yeah, this was his fourth game.

Yeah, he's played four. Yeah, like his third game is when he really got the reins. Yeah, it's when he really got the reins. So Casey made that adjustment, moved a little bit away from Killian Hayes. unfortunately has continued to not be a particularly bright spot. This was something we were talking about before the season. Of course, you know, how is the ball handling going to be shared? And Tommy, I know you're thinking a little bit better about Killian's improvements since the beginning of the season than I am still not feeling particularly good about him.

Though part of it is just my severe irritation that the guy absolutely and utterly will not go in and take the ball to the basket, which is a gigantic weakness that just causes all sorts of problems because he's extremely. extremely predictable. Right. There's actually... He was... I'll just say this. The guy was an unmitigated catastrophe

as the primary ball handler. The team was neutered on offense with him as the primary handle. He was terrible. Yeah. There have been a lot of quotes about that recently, about Killing Hayes going into an off ball role, and I should have pulled it up,

but there was one where... Killing Hayes has actually said in the past that he likes playing the combo guard role, and I think that is going to be his role for the time being. I'm still not convinced that he's the long-term fit next to Cade. It's going to take a lot more than just knocking down more catch-and-shoot-3s and playing good defense for me to be like, okay, yeah, you can build around this guy. But as far as what he's done recently, as Cade has gotten the ball in his hands,

he's playing the role that we want, or at least that I want. We talked about this as recently as the last episode. It's like, what do you want Killing to be? Do you want him to come off the bench? Do you want him to stay a primary creator now that he's, actually showing some improvement or do you want them to be 3-&D? And it looks like it's trending towards 3-&D and maybe like second, like very, very light secondary ball handling duties.

I still think that there's a world where you stagger the minutes between Cade and Killian so that one of those guys is on the floor, at least most of the time, because I think Killian could actually generate decent offense against bench tier players. But that's just down the line. Right now, I'm just happy that Cade Cunningham is the guy. guy who's got the offense in his hands and that Killian is going to be at least theoretically off the ball for the foreseeable future. Yeah, but with Killian, though, and that's, and that's sort of the issue for me is that, yeah, he's started to improve a bit on those catch-and-shoot

threes and you could, you know, see a world where he's like a viable three-nd-d option because for all of his faults, he's an absolute terror on defense. He's great on defense. But if what his long-term role is, is to be the three-and-d-d-two-guards. next to Cade with light ball handling duties, there are players who can fulfill those obligations so much better, like so much better. So I just don't, I guess I'm having trouble reconciling what is optimal role in the starting lineup

is versus how useful is that over some other replacement level player who wasn't a top 10 pick who maybe we could pick up on the cheap and spend the money elsewhere. Like it's just, I agree that maybe staggering their minutes would be good. In fact, I think long term that might be the, optimal solution to this kind of conundrum that we've got going on. But I don't foresee the organization doing that.

I really believe that they want the fit between Kate and Killian to work. And unfortunately, that's at its best when Killian is relegated to being a 3 and D guy. And he's not that good of a 3ndy guy. So it's like, what are we doing here? I think he has potential in the 3 and D role. I certainly have potential.

But would you say that it's like, oh, yeah, we need Killian Hayes to be our long term three and Dary role. 2 guard. Like there's guys who can be a much better. I think he can, I think he can take that role and play it viably for the time being. I think there's just no way to add that kind of talent.

He remains far away from being, from being an NBA rotation player right now. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, now that's the issue if we're talking about in the future, about staggering their minutes or about him being the starting shooting guard next to Cade, even if he's just a 3 and D, I don't necessarily agree with that because I think his defense is fine. and as a lead ball handler, yes.

Like, he has been awful, but. He's got to be able to hit his threes on regular, on regular volume, though, but he's also got to be able to do stuff inside the arc. Yeah. I mean, it's, I mean, it's just, like, even last night, I feel like Cade, sure, there was the, just further improvement from getting back, you know,

further back in the game shape. However, I feel like he just looked better without Killian on the floor, though. I mean, just, you talk about a three-and-d shooting guard. I mean, generally with those guys, they can shoot motion threes and whatnot, do something beyond just taking spot-up threes. I mean, you have Lonzo ball as one example of a guy who pretty much just playmates in transition,

and in a half court, he makes just more passes from the perimeter and shoots threes and takes some floaters. It's like, okay, you can make that work to a degree. Look who he's playing next to. He's playing next to the primary ball handler is Zach Levine. You don't get more dynamic than that guy. he's playing next to Damar de Rose

and he's been pretty good so far and I don't think this will last but he's been actually pretty darn good in a creation role and like before that you had before Patrick Williams you had his injury you have Nicole Vucciovich

who's just very effective in the interior and that's how you make Wanzo ball really a useful player you put him in the right situation and in the situation in which his weaknesses such as I won't drive to the interior

because I don't want to accept contact, you know, whereas weaknesses are not really as big of a deal. You can't do that next to Cade, really. You know, if you're looking in the long term, do you want to really feel the backcourt that has this little athleticism? I mean, athleticism is important. We've got to use your question about this. We'll go over it later. But, I mean, I don't doubt that this is the least, that the lineup of Cade, Killian, Bay, Grant,

and Stewart is the least athletic starting lineup in the MDA. It is. Yeah. And like it or not, athleticism is very. important. It's very important for options, gaining separation in the defense, you know, vertical spacing, what I would call, I don't know if I really coined this term, which you just call separation in space or space separation in space, whatever. That term did not come out right, but it's basically guys who can move explosively off the ball. You give them a screen,

they can explode off of it, and they can gain separation easily. Bay can't do that. Stewart can't do that. Hayes can't do that. Grants maybe could, but it's not really the way he plays. So I think Killiam would continue to come with hidden costs, but he's got a ways to go until he becomes even that viable 3-N-D rotation player. I know. I'll take the progress as is, but you brought up Sadieke Bay. He started at the two last night. What did you guys think of that?

He didn't start the two. Josh Jackson started the two last night. Sadie could small forward. Yeah, Bay worked his way into the two eventually in some lineups that came about later in the game. Who was he guarding? Regardless of if he started or not, I liked the lineup. If that's what you're getting at, I so. Bay was guarding...

I know he got Kevin Durant on some possessions. So it was Jeremy Grant was the primary defender on Kevin Durant. It was Josh Jackson defending Hardin, which left, I think, Cade primarily on... So Bay was either on Joe Harris or Bruce Brown, one of the two. Though they pretty much ignored Bruce Brown for a good reason. Yeah, even though Bayton started the two, you know, he certainly played some minutes there last night, And I think that this is, it's good. I think it's a good thing.

You know, we talked about this a bit last episode where it's like Bay's aptitude for being able to cover a wide variety of offensive players when he's on defense is going to serve him well at the two spot. And frankly, he's just the best player on the team who can play there. You know, all of the other options, you're Josh Jackson's and Frank Jackson's of the world. They've got their limitations. But Bay, despite his recent struggles, I think, you know, fits really. well there. I do. I much prefer seeing him paired up with Kate in the back court, especially on defense than the other options that we have. And I think maybe long term, I don't know how that affects the starting five, but it's certainly an interesting lineup. And it's one that I think has a lot of

potential. But this conversation about Bay does a really good job in transitioning into his struggles recently. And it's funny, we'll pull the curtain back a little bit. So we actually recorded an episode, but because of some scheduling issues, we didn't get the episode out. But in that episode. I was doing a bit of a victory lap because it was after, I believe it was the first two, three games, Bay was averaging up close to 19 points per game. He looked really good, even with his three, not falling at the rate that we expected it to. And yeah, in hindsight, maybe the victory lap was a bit premature because I think Bay's issue right now, and I'm curious to know what the two of you guys think about this, but I think Bay's issue is similar to Grant's issue in that when Cunningham,

shows up. And he's such a high usage player, someone who, you know, the offense stops and starts with him or starts and stops with him. You're struggling to find your place. You're struggling to find your rhythm and where you fit best because quite frankly, when a player of Cunningham's caliber is running your offense, unless you're a superstar yourself, everyone else is relegated to being a role of a player. That's really the reality of the situation. And so Bay and Grants are going to have to find their place in, or their role, rather, in a setup like that. So I don't know what that most optimally looks like, but they're going to have to figure it out.

And honestly, they should figure it out quick because they have not been performing to their optimal capabilities. Yeah, I would say when it comes to Bay, I think that they'll probably dump this experiment fairly quickly of Bay just trying to create on his own. So a couple of my thoughts on this. Number one, if Bay is going to shoot a. his threes at high percentage, it makes far more sense in any case, to have him just shoot his threes, to just be that three-and-d player, the guy who's taking the majority of his shots

from the perimeter, than to try to run him on all these inefficient isolation sets. So I think there's a distinction that needs to be made between creating offense and what Bay is doing. Generally, guys who are creating offense, you get into the interior, you break down the defense. Sure, sometimes, no, let me rephrase. So creating offense usually just does mean just basically taking the ball off the dribble and scoring points. So that wasn't a good way of putting it. But there are guys who can do that and go in and break down the defense and then pass the ball, take advantage of that.

So there are guys who can just drive and do that. And then there are guys who just drive in and basically just try to score in isolation. And that's what Bay is doing. He's basically just a one on, when he's trying to create offense, he's a one-on-one guy who's just trying to drive his way in, pull his way to the back. basket. And like isolation offense, it's very difficult to make it efficient. And especially if you're looking at a guy like Bay who in terms of the NBA is very below average in terms of acceleration, deceleration, lateral movement with the ball, his handle is bad. He's not a good leaper. This is not a guy who is well suited to try to create offense. And it's just, it's been a outside of

those first three games. And in two of those really, he scored well because his three was dropping. you know, for the most part, that was it. At least in one of them particularly, I think, in the first game against the Sixers, I think. So, yeah, I think that, and like when he got the ball on that final play yesterday, I was like, I know what's going to happen here. He's going to curl around the screen, and he is just going to go charging into the paint because, you know, that's what he does. Like I said, it's real difficult with his level of athleticism to create offense

and with his handle. And, of course, he just ran straight in a Blake Green. riffin, and you can say it was a borderline call, but you know what, if you're a ref and a guy even slightly has position, and you see a player go completely barreling right into this guy and knock him down, you're going to get to charge call 90% of the time. So at this point, I think I think it's just kind of like a square peg being shoved into a round hole. I'd rather just see him go back to shooting threes. Yeah, I think what we were talking about in that, the previous episode, this is obviously pre-K'd as well. And there's a big difference between what we need from Bay right now,

that Cade Cunningham looks legit. But going back to Summer League even, when Sadiq Bay started to try this out, nobody thought he was capable of anything even moderately useful within the interior. I know personally I thought, okay, your next evolution, and maybe this is still the case, especially next to Cade, is just focus on motion threes. Obviously, that's a really good thing to have,

especially for a guy like Sadiq Bay. But if you can add more, that's fine with me too. And one of the reasons that I like the idea of Sadiq Ba'i at the two is because, yes, Mike, you're absolutely right. He's not the most athletic. He, well, he doesn't have the best burst. He doesn't have the best vision right now. But what he does have is a lot of strength. He can post up guys from the perimeter.

And in doing so, he's actually, like, establishing position. And turning that into useful offense isn't something that he's done well just yet, but he's, like, trying different things and he's experimenting with it. and it's a lot easier to do that against twos as opposed to fours. So I'm okay with the idea of shifting him down the lineup. And if that is something he can make useful on maybe lower volume in a pinch, that's fine and that's great with me. Now I think the next evolution for Sadiq Bay is continue to post up

when that's like an acceptable option. But look to pass it more because you're not going to create advantages by driving in and kicking. But what you can do is post up. And if you get all the way there, yeah, go for it, take the shot because Sadiq Bay has managed to post up all the way to the rim and take, you know, like a shot in the restricted area. That's happened when he gets the ideal matchup. But, yeah, the turnaround fadeaways, especially with Cade on the floor, that doesn't seem like ideal offense. And I don't think he's, it was something that I was hopeful he was going to make efficient enough to take that shot, not on high volume, but take it.

But right now it just doesn't look like it's something that he should put. a ton of effort into. I think maximizing Cade is more important right now. I would say that the only shot that he should be taking from mid-range is that, not step back, but that pull-up mid-range jumper. If he can make that a fish and pull. Some guys can do that. Great. If he's one of them, awesome. But I feel like at this point, just this experiment is ongoing. He's being given the ball and said, okay, try to do something with it. And there's just a lot of stuff I think that he's just never going to be particularly good that in driving in like off just just taking the ball and trying to beat a guy off the dribble,

that's hardly ever going to happen with Bay. It's the same athletic shortcomings, which were the reason why the Pistons had access to draft him in the first place. That is what it is. And I'd just like to reiterate, Sadiq Bay can be a valuable player just as a 3-and-D guy. He does not need to be more than a 3-&D guy. And I agree with you, Tommy. You can take those situations in which, sure, he just posts up and uses his body,

his body strength, his body strength, obviously. obviously. He uses his strength to, no, his strength of mind still for power guys. And he just uses his strength to get himself closer to the basket and him to score that way. And maybe if he does on a regular basis,

he starts to attract double teams and that opens up other options. Great. For sure. But I think it's, you're reaching points or which I question if it's just really good for him to be, or just for the team as a whole for him to, I know it's early, but for him to be just charging in and struggling at this again and again and

again, at what point you pair it down to okay. We want you to still try to do more than just shoot threes, but we want you to limit it to these walks of offense in which we think you can do it more effectively and just practice these, do these in-game and get rid of just the wild drives and the spin-around jumpers and so on and so forth. I'm okay with them trying out more stuff. This is the time to do it.

Team isn't going to be good. Everything's kind of in a flux right now. Try out weird stuff. It doesn't always have to work out, but I'm happy that they're trying it and they're not being too conservative with what they do with the young guys because honestly,

if they hadn't tried this stuff out, we never would have known that Sadiq Bay is actually capable of doing stuff in the interior. So more than okay with me. I'm happy with what we've seen from Bay. I get you. It's trying it out,

but after a point, it's like he's not the only one who's concerned right now. I mean, when you're trying to run an offense in which you're developing other players also and you have a guy who's basically discharging him with all forms of ball-stopping offense for the most part are not working, and you have one or not working,

four spacer. It doesn't, you don't need to try to go zero to 60 in the situation, I think. Yeah, that I agree. I do want him to look to pass it more. That was a concern that I had with Isaiah Stewart as well. But I think it'll just come with time. It's a new skill to learn. It's not something that, well, Villanova actually, they do share the ball pretty well.

But I think he'll get better at it. It's just going to be a matter of time and establishing chemistry, which I think they really have taken strides on in the past couple games. So I think he'll work within that. I just don't want the pendulum to swing too far in the other direction. Like I think that the landscape or the tone rather of this conversation is completely different when you're referencing the first two, three games versus these last three or so games. And, you know, if we're having this conversation sooner in the season,

we would just be fawning over Sadiq's improvement. And just because he's hit a few road bumps now that he's got to share those offensive initiation not share but you know there's another offensive initiator who's going to be the primary guy in the lineup with ked now just because this started this started this started i mean a struggle started before cave was even no no i i understand that but the first three games were were good i mean we got on we got on here and we we we praised his improvements and this was a this was a thing that was recognized across the NBA landscape was that sadiq is showing that he can be more than a three and d player and i agree with you mike he's

perfectly viable, perfectly valuable, and someone you really want on your team just as he was last season. You know, last season's iteration of Sadiq could get solid minutes on, in my opinion, every single team in the NBA, if not be one of the top three or four scoring options on those teams. But at the same time, stifling development, in my opinion, unless the situation is super, super extreme, is not really the move. Like, it's like Tommy said, this obviously is a developmental season. and as much as I was saying in the offseason, how much I want to make the play. And I mean, at 1 and 7, obviously you're not out of it.

The season is still very young, but team is not looking super, super competitive in a lot of these games. So if Sadiq's experiments are not severely impeding the other players' development, and I don't think that it is, I think it's perfectly reasonable for him to keep doing what he's doing because it just benefits everyone for him to become more multifaceted on offense. You know, a 3-&D player is great. It's great. And it's someone I want on the team, especially a 22-year-old, super strong, very high- IQ defender 3-ndes, Sidique Bay. That's awesome. That's perfectly fine the way that he is. But if he improves, that just means good things for everybody. Now he attracts double teams. You know, now he has more gravity. The more improvements Sadiq makes, the better things are for everybody else. If there are a few growing pains along the way, I'm ready and willing to accept that. Sadiq is one of those guys to me who's earned the benefit of the doubt. We know he's a good player. So it's time to see if he can be.

be an even better player. I don't think it's time to pull the plug after seven games of him trying it out. That's nine games, but, uh, or it's it nine or eight, nine games, yeah, nine or eight or less than 10 games, we'll call it. Less than 10 games. Here's the thing. I think that, I mean, the team is obviously working towards having an offense. It's not a complete train wreck. And it has been an absolute complete train wreck. It's not doing a great job of that. No, it is. It has been a train wreck. And as you're working toward that, I don't think it's best for you to be, like I said, have Sadie work on certain things on the court. Right now it's been like try to do whatever you possibly can. And I don't think that's necessarily that's good for him. I don't think that's good for the offense. I think you

just focus on a few things. It's like, yeah, post up guys who are smaller than you. Take those mismatches. Though Dwayne Casey, goodness knows is not good at looking at something and saying, oh, well, here's a way we can, you know, here's just a little facet, okay, we can try to find mismatches for Bay, I'm much smaller players who we can post up. I mean, Casey isn't good at exploiting those, those advantages. Anyway, so yeah, I would say with Bayes, sure, you can have him post up players, you can, I don't know, because that's really the only thing he's done well. In those first two games, he was playing into Marta Rosen against a relatively weak rim protector in Nicole Wuchovich and so on, and that was very helpful. But, yeah, I mean, I think it's just kind of start, it's time, I would say, to start refining what he should be doing, especially because a lot of the stuff he's attempting.

is low percentage for elite players or for certain elite players. And, you know, especially given the disadvantages he's working with athletically. And now a quick word from our sponsor. Another week of the NFL season means another shot to win big at Draft King Sportsbook. New customers can bet just $1 on any NFL game and win $100 in free bets if either team scores a point. The last zero-zero tie in the NFL was actually in 1943. So I'd say this is a no-brainer. If sportsbook isn't available in your state yet,

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That's promo code TPPN this week at Draft King Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NFL. Must be 21 or older in New Jersey, Indiana, or Pennsylvania only, new customers only, minimum $5 deposit, and $1 wage are required. One per customer, restrictions apply. See draftkings.com slash sportsbook for details. And if you have a gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler. So speaking of guys who are struggling, we can move on to Jeremy Grant. Yeah, yeah. So guys, I'm holding a big red panic button in my. hands regarding grant you're going to hit it as things stand I am actually concerned because are you hitting it is it you just have your hand lightly on

the panic button or you hitting the panic button you got to define this for me because is it like are we talking about Jeremy Grant as like a dynamic creator of advantages yeah a little bit like because multiple times in multiple games I keep thinking would it just be easy for him to go back to like a more simplified, you know, but very beneficial three and D role. Because right now he's just, he just hasn't looked the part of a star player. And last season, he had those moments. And quietly on the end of the season, he had kind of regressed quite a bit from his highs

and like the first, like 25 to 50% of the way through that season. He was really, really good. And then it kind of slowly tapered off. But I don't know. it's especially with Cade playing the way that he is, would it be easier for Jeremy Grant to just be like a high volume dynamic 3-and-D guy? That's something I wonder about because another concern that I've had about Jeremy Grant is that he's not passing it super well.

And that's one of the things that, you know, bigger star forwards need to be able to do. That's one of the things that you can do to create advantages. But right now the shooting and even the touch around the rim has suffered a little bit. So I'm a little, I'm not concerned about Jeremy Grant as a whole, but as like, as far as in terms of what his ceiling is or could be or what we think it projects to be at this point, I am a little concerned. I would say, I've been most upset with Grant's about how I feel like he's been phoning it in in certain capacities. Like, we know we've got just absolutely a crap beaten out of him last season ahead of the basket. However, that was, it was important that he'd drive hard of the basket. He was good at scoring there.

He was pretty darn good to drawing free throws there. This season, he has not played nearly as aggressively. He is often, he has a propensity, basically, just when he sees opposition, he goes for this really crappy pull-up mid-range jumper. And I call it a really crappy pull-at mid-range jumper because that's hardly ever efficient offense for anybody. It's not a shot you want to go to unless you're actually good at making it. And Grant is not.

He was not good at it last season. This season, he is absolutely terrible. He's attempting close to three-and-half mid-range jumpers a game on 23%. 23%. And it's sure, this is worse than you would expect. But last season, he was like in the mid-30s. This is not a good form of offense. So I kind of feel like he's just settling for bad offense this season. I don't know if he was told, well, don't get the crap beat not of you during games. But I just don't feel like he's the sort of hard driving, super hard working offensive player. We saw him that we saw last season. I'll put it that way. I feel like there is a very

distinct difference that he's taking bad shots. He's, absolutely a ball stopper this season. I mean, he had improved as a playmaker off the drive last season. Now it's just I'm going to take the ball and I'm going to, whatever, I'm going to shoot it. So I'm not happy with it. And I don't really know what's going on. I'm not panicking because it's like, you know, no matter what you're doing, it's ideal if this guy does well. If not, you have a year left on his contract.

But I've been disappointed with him. I feel like he was really one of the team's leaders last season. And I feel like on offense this season, he's just been playing kind of a more standoff me first sort of style yeah yeah i would say that i have an open palm sort of hovering above the panic button on grant and i think the one thing preventing me from full on smacking it is uh that game against philly and i think the game against philly where grant um quote unquote broke out of his slump which you know clearly he didn't because he followed that up with probably his worst game of the season. But that showed that the Denver Nuggets, Jeremy Grant, he could be an enhanced

version of that when his shots are falling and things are going right. I thought that he played a lot smarter against Philly. I thought that he was a good relocator on the perimeter. I thought he played good defense. And overall, these elements of his game came together and he was incredibly impactful. And quite honestly, one of the most impactful players on the floor every single time he was on it. So as much as he's going to have to cede these creation opportunities to Cade, that's inevitable, that's going to happen. We're never going to see a Jeremy Grant with the usage rate that he had at his peak last season.

I still think he can be someone who, you know, 20 million a year is an absolute steal when he plays like he did against Philly. And that's mostly because how he played against Philly doesn't, it doesn't involve a play style that's, that's incongruent or doesn't mesh with what Cade does. I think he can be that off ball two, number two option, and be highly effective at it. Now, it's just a matter of, is his shot selection going to be good? Because quite honestly, if I have to watch another long pull-up after a size-up two, I'm going to claw my eyes out.

But it's also a matter of can he hit his shots? So if those elements of his game come together, he can still be useful, which is keeping me from hitting the panic button. But as it stands right now, he's suffering a lot from what Bay is suffering from. in my opinion, and that's how do you reconcile your improvements as a player with your usage rate with how does that mesh with Cade now? So this is something that is going to be a story in development, I think, for the rest of the season.

I don't think is Cade has anything to do with it, whether for Bay or Grant. I do. I mean, so, so, so Grant has been bad since season's start. I mean, he did well against Philly because his shots from the interior were falling. I mean, we had two threes in that game. And he's, like, his issues have been, have not changed, I feel like, since the beginning of the season. And Bay had his, did his good first few games. And then he took a crap. And I don't think Kayed had anything to do with that. I mean, it had to, it started before Kate got there. I mean, you'd think that Kate would be generating more space for Bay, like in his last couple games. So I don't think it's got anything to do with, I don't think it's got anything to do with Kate at all. I mean, Grant is just, he's taking bad shots. He's not hitting his three as well. He's not hitting any of his shots. Well, he's not. driving hard at the basket. And I mean, I think that going forward, you might see, okay, well,

Jeremy, you have to stop stopping the ball quite as much. And that's fine. That might be the dynamic between he and K. But Bay, I don't think it's ever going to be an issue. I mean, Bay is not a guy who's going to try to, who's not, who's going to kind of hijack the offense, take a bunch of bad shots. But the, yeah, with Bay, it's just that he hasn't been able to generate anything anymore off the dribble. So I don't think it's got any of new with Cade at all. And I mean, Grant's struggles. I mean, they have just been since game one.

No, I agree with you. I just think that there's something to be said about the level of discomfort that comes with making a stride or making an evolution as a player. And then with the emergence of Cade, that version of the player that you've become can't exist on the squad that you're on. You know, what Grant was last year is just not an option anymore. With Cade on the team, it's never going to be an option, not now and certainly not long term.

And with Bay, I think I was more so referring to the fact that even though his three wasn't falling, even though he wasn't creating offense quite as efficiently as we would have liked, he still managed to really stuff the stat sheet as far as scoring is concerned. But when Cunningham is in the game, sorry? For a couple games. Well, exactly, but he still did it, right? But when Cunningham is in the game, you know, if Bay's three is not falling, now instead of 18 points, it's like six points.

Oh, he's not going to 18 games. He's not going to 18 points before Cade came in. I mean, Bay's ability when his... Well, he was averaging above 18. No, I mean, for a few games, he did that, and not just taking a complete dump. I don't think Cade's got anything to do with that. I mean, Cade's serious, he's played four games.

He was the primary ball handler for two. Even before that, I don't think his presence on the court impacted the fact that Bay was getting less. Bay couldn't do anything inside the arc from then. I mean, his percentage inside the arc, if I had to look it up for like the past five games, I would guess is probably in like the 20s or 30s. Yeah, probably. That's why he hasn't been scoring.

is because he can't generate anything and his three also hasn't been falling well until last night. Yeah, I guess all I'm really saying is that these players are going to have to reconcile what their rules are going to be because a player of Cade's caliber or his perceived caliber comes in, you know, the long-term trajectory of what these players are going to do for the team changes. I think I'm more optimistic on how Bay is going to fit with that than Grant's, because Grant's improvements were playing a completely different role than he played in Denver. You know, he was the guy last year. and he's never going to be the guy moving forward.

So it's like what version of Grant are we going to get and how optimally can he play that role? So that's sort of why I had a hovering hand over the panic button. I don't know if I articulated it quite as well as I wanted to, but that's sort of what I was thinking. Fair enough. I mean, you just look at Grant's shot profile this season, though. He's averaging, I'm looking at the stats right now.

I'm not sure if these include last night's game, but 31 shot attempts in the restricted area that's not too many. That's about three or four per game for a guy who's handling the ball as much as grain is. But either way, just his shot attempts, both inside the bait and outside the restricted area, if you combine those with his mid-range attempts, it's drastically more. Those are not high percentage offense for him. If you were hitting his three, it's a be different story, but he's just taking a lot of bad shots.

And, yeah, it's just a bad situation. Now, Tommy, we haven't heard from you for a little while. Yeah, I honestly just was enjoying your back and forth. really my only concern with Grant right now. I think the shot will just come along. One, I guess to simplify it, would be just stop pulling up from mid-range. It's not a good shot. And clearly, you're not knocking that down right now. Just go back to taking, you know, the more efficient, the higher percentage shots and taking threes. And the other thing is look to pass the ball. I think with Cade in the lineup, I don't even remember who said it,

but I would disagree that it's hurting Grant because right now they're passing. in the ball far better as a team to each other. And I think part of that is just establishing chemistry, but the other thing is, I think Cade is actually generating advantages and drawing players in. Yeah, I agree. The ball moving around the perimeter is a lot better right now, as opposed to the first few games.

But that's really all I would have to say about Grant. It's just going to be something to keep an eye on. And I think if there's nothing more, we should move on. Let's do the user-submitted questions, because we got a few nice ones. Okay. All right. So when it comes to questions, thank you all. As always, for submitting questions. It's really helpful. You can all, anybody who's listening, you can always do so. Contact us on Reddit on the Troy Business Discord through our Twitter account to The BasketPod or at our email accounts, driving to the basket at gmail.com. No spam, please. Anyway. So first question, why, well, it's two questions, in fact. Why Homodyodeodeo fell out of the road? and is Josh Jackson going to get any better?

I'll take the weed on this because I've talked a lot about this before. I think pretty highly of Hamdo Diole's ceiling. However, he came back from the offseason looking exactly like himself in terms of a shot, which is very slow and not accurate. And he came back strangely unaggressive, very passive and not driving to the net. That three-point shot is just a necessity either way. He's got to have it. It's a swing skill for him in that he could be.

a legitimately valuable starting player with it. But, you know, just without it, you're not going to find, hardly any player, perimeter player can't shoot is going to be a positive value player. But also, he just looks raw in every respect. So I just don't think he merits minutes at the moment. He just doesn't look like he has much to offer. Is Josh going to get better? I'd still lay that at the feet of Josh.

If he can get focused on the things that he needs to be able to do well, focus on shooting threes, driving to the basket, scoring a transition, playing defense, and making the right pass when necessary. Great. If you want to be the dynamic offense creator, probably going to fail in the long term. Yeah, I think that's a pretty good way to answer both of those questions, Mike. I mean, I was ready to go, but you did a good job of answering. So I wouldn't say I have anything else to add.

Yeah, the only thing I agree with you on Hamadu completely. And the only thing I'll say about Josh is that I'm a little bit more, maybe hopeful is the right word, because I actually really liked the size that he brought in the starting lineup and the athleticism. So if you can just tailor his shot selection a little bit more, I guess I'm willing to give him another shot because I want it to work. Yeah, but he never has throughout his career. That shot IQ is low. It's probably going to stay low. It'll come down to the coaching staff.

We have guys who can generate offense and opportunities, and it's completely obvious now. So it's anybody who's taking bad shots like that, they're doing it because. they want to not because they have to. You don't think the coaching staff is telling him to take that step back long to the 15-6th clock, like the least efficient shot he could possibly be taking. I mean, you know, I know I'm not telling him.

This is Dwayne Casey. This is his go-to in Toronto. Yeah. Yeah. That's a joke, but yeah. Yeah. Next question. Yeah, next question.

What's the biggest need for the team besides shots falling where we are right now after eight or so games? Passing. Tommy, you want to take this point? Yeah. It's got to be the passing because that was, I mean, it's looking better now. And it's just coming down to chemistry in my mind. But early on, it was awful.

Like guys were passing to each other's feet off to the side. It's just going to come with time. And with Cade in the lineup, I think I just said this. The perimeter passing is looking so much better because advantages are actually being created. Space is actually being drawn. So that's what in my mind. That's what I used to improve the most. And shooting, I guess.

Yeah, they're shooting. When it comes to passing, not trying to rag on Killian. I've said it before on this episode, you know, on this podcast. I like Killian. I think that he has potential to succeed in the NBA. And I want him to succeed. He's just been terrible so far. Sneakly useless as a passer.

Oh, he's horrendously. A advantage creator. Horrible. As an advantage creator, he is about when he was being used as primary handler, he was about as bad as you can possibly be. He would create basically running him on the pick and roll, giving him the ball, result in shot clock being wasted and nothing more.

So that was part of it. I mean, Killiam is unthinkably bad as the ball handler. I mean, there were no redeeming characteristics there. So, yeah, there was the shooting, and so I'll just echo with Tommy said, when you're actually able to have players who can break down a defense, you know, Kay can help break down a defense, and you generate advantages, and then you kick the ball around and find a good shot. So that's what has to keep happening.

And there are two guys in this team who can do that. one is Cade. I know a lot of listeners are going to hate this. The other one is Cory Joseph. Sorry. He is the other guy who can do this right now. I mean, that's the fact that he's the only other guy who can do it is a symptom of, you know, just how the roster is, the fact that Killian failed to really make any improvements over the offseason in terms of his ball handling and ability to break down defenses. But those are the two guys who can do it. Yeah. Yeah. I would say probably my answer mirrors your guys is I would say more fluidity on offense. And I think the fluidity comes from having someone on the floor who can break down their defender at the perimeter.

Because when Cade or Corey Joseph are not on the floor, the offense really just consist of, okay, let's pass it around the perimeter, whoever has the ball, size your defender up, try and get by them. The guy doesn't move because he knows you're not going to blow by them. And then you pass it to the next guy on the perimeter and so on and so forth. It's very rigid, very mechanical, and obviously, completely inept. And it's designed to create scoring opportunities because I'm pretty sure we're dead last in the NBA and offense. So, yeah, I think the offense will improve with Cade having an improved usage rate.

But yeah, that's sort of something that naturally kind of emanates from having someone who can break down a defense. And that's something that Cady can do. In my opinion, he can do it at a higher level than Corey Joseph, too. So really what's the antidote to the offense is more Cade. I'm not saying that he's going to fix everything, but he'll certainly improve things. Yeah, I would say about Corey Joseph. Just I'll go to bat for the guy. He is, I mean, and this is, again, a symptom of the team.

He's one of the team's best players over like the last six games, possibly the best player on the team in an aggregate. We're just looking at those six games because Cade has had two really, you know, two bad ones and one pretty good and one better. But whatever the case. I mean, Corey is not a bad point guard. And he has been playing well. I'll just put it that way. I mean, he's ultimately, in the grand scheme of things, probably like an average backup at best, but he's been playing pretty well for the team.

And then there's also what, just what he brings in the locker room and whatnot. I know a lot of people don't like him, but he's been important in what the Pistons really have done right, the little that they have done right in the past six games. Okay, moving on, Pissons' lack of athleticism has brought up a lot. Why is that so important? What are some examples of athleticism being the best predictor of success? What are some examples? Sorry, you deserve my phone.

What are some examples of success despite not being super athletic? Tommy, you want to take this one first? Yeah, I guess there's the discussion in my mind kind of revolves around Stewart because you lose a lot when you don't have a real lob threat. and right now, Stuart, as impactful and as great as he played in the past few games, not having a lob threat, it's just, one, it's just not as fun. Like, I want a guy who can go up and get it. But two, like, this is the NBA.

Like, guys who are more athletic than their opponents, they can, they just have a, they just have higher ceilings. So I think the lineup just lacks that explosiveness. And that'll help in transition. That'll help in the half. court. It's just something that we need. I'm trying to think you'd have to come back to me. So I'll defer to somebody else to answer the first part of the question. I mean, I don't think athleticism, excuse me, in and of itself is a predictor of success. I think athleticism is a facet of a player or a component of a player's overall game that raises their ceiling. And I understand the spirit of

this question because we talk about athleticism and the Pistons lack of it a lot on this show. And I just think it's magnified because the lack of athletes in our starting lineup is very apparent. And I think, like, I'll put it this way to answer in a roundabout way. Everybody in the NBA is athletic to some degree. I mean, one part of this question asks about examples of players who are unathletic who succeed. I mean, the standard answer to that question is Luca, but even Luca is athletic in the sense of stopping and starting his movements, change of direction, and short area quickness.

And then there's players like Hamadu Diallo who are probably in the top, you know, 1% of athletes in the NBA who have not found a lot of success. So what I would, how I would answer the question is it's not the be all end all, but it raises your ceiling. And it's like Tommy said,

you know, you move explosively off the ball. You can be a lob threat. You can be someone who just blows by guys. And all in all, that adds a facet to the game, explosiveness does anyway, adds a facet to the game

that you just, can't replicate with other skills. So I think that's sort of what we're talking about when we when we speak on athleticism. Yeah. And I think of Yokic and part of it is that he just, he's, he's so effective with the ball in his hands, but he does things that are just, they look impossible. I mean, one, he's seven feet tall, but his turnaround jumper is, you can't do anything about that. It's like, he just pulls up and he shoots it over you. And he's just not the fastest guy. He does it with IQ. And that work. works really well for a primary ball handler, but if you're like a role player, it's really

helpful to be athletic because you can cut harder and you can go for lobs, you can finish plays like that. And right now, we just lack that guy. I agree with you, Dante. It's absolutely important for a player's ceiling. Now, in the NBA, do you take the highly athletic guy who can't shoot or the much less athletic guy who can't shoot? Obviously, it's a ladder. But all things being equal, you have two guys who can shoot. One of them is very athletic. The other one is not. Just that athleticism is so important in the ceiling. I know it was brought up often in the case of Donovan Mitchell versus Lou Canard, for example, the ability to beat guys off the dribble, to elevate at the rim, to I really get to put my phone on silent, to elevate the rim, to finish through contact,

to just gain separation around the perimeter by just outrunning your defender. Just that explosiveness. And it just gives you so much more in the way of options, both as an on-ball and an off-ball player. So that's why it's important. Obviously, you have situations in which players are successful despite not being very athletic, and who are very successful, in fact. And that's because they bring something to the table that compensates for it. So you look at Luca, yeah, just unbelievable basketball IQ.

He's very good of changing directions and speeds. He's just, he's a great shooter off to dribble. Well, not like jump shooter, but, you know, sometimes you have guys who can be elites without that. Of course, it just, you need some pretty darned excellent, like, preternatural skills to compensate for that lack of athleticism and still be a highly elite player. You have Yokic, yeah, just Yokic the way he plays doesn't really need to be super athletic. But for the most part, it's just such an incredibly useful skill to have. And, yeah, so, I mean, but when you also, it's not just that, when you feel that a not athletic lineup, you're just losing a lot in a way of

options. Guys who can move explosively around the perimeter and either take the ball for three or cut to the basket or cuts the basket for a lob. I mean, those are real nice to have. It's just assets that you have and having a very unathletic lineup is a big no-no because you'll lose a lot of options. So there's also just the fact that the athletic standard in the NBA these days is incredible. It's incredibly high. And so if you have less athletic, athletic guys in the floor, it's just, it's, it's, it's that much more apparent and it's that much more of an issue. So, not an essential skill, but an extremely helpful skill, and one that's, that's likely to, for the vast majority of players, to play a significant role in determining one ceiling.

Because if you have Luke Kennard and you make him an elite athletes, then there's a potential all-star player, but he's a below-average athlete. All right, folks, anything to add before we call it quits on this episode. It's Cade season. Sweet. Yeah. Yeah. And it's actually happening.

Thank you, Dwayne, Casey. Very cool. And we have five days until the next game. Well, four days. We're recording this the day after the loss against the Nets. Yeah. I will miss, I know the players hated it last year and it was not good for their health.

I will miss the condensed schedule since we got to watch the Pistons play. That was nice for hockey, too. That was nice for hockey. I enjoyed the shortened season, and the condensed schedule and the NBA was nice. It's always nice to have more. basketball in a limited amount of time. Yeah, I know a smaller amount of time. Absolutely.

Yeah. All right, folks. So as always, thank you for listening. And we will catch you next time.