Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 70: The Good, the bad, and the Casey

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

This episode covers a wide range of topics: Cade Cunningham's breakout, Saddiq Bey's (hopeful) return to form, Killian Hayes' outlook, and Dwane Casey's perpetual troubles at coaching an offense. 

Welcome back, everybody to drive into the basket. Part of the Basketball Podcast Network. I am Mike, joined as always by Dante and Tommy. So this is actually a very special episode we're doing here. I don't know if any of you guys knew this, but it was actually Dante's birthday recently. So Tommy and I got together. We bought him a Corey Joseph jersey,

and we told him that we'd spend this entire episode just talking about the career and the life of Corey Joseph. So none of that is true. I had no idea. I was like, who was his birthday? I don't know I did so yeah so yeah

I think you'd probably end up burning that jersey if we'd be honest but so yeah we're just gonna we're just really going to launch into talking about just our recent observations on the team really it's been probably about a week and a half to the last record it we're on just after a couple hours after the piston's

loss against the Sacramento Kings which had some good and some bad so Dante, you were just the butt of the joke. Where would you like to start? That was a good one. That was a good one because I forgot my own birthday for a second there.

I was like, what's going on? But as far as the game is concerned, I mean, where do we want to start? Just in general. I mean, yeah, we really haven't had the chance to do this in a little while. I feel like a lot has happened since then, including, for example, the Rockets, Pistons matchup and some other stuff, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. There's been, it's been up and down. I would say in terms of what matters to me the most,

and what matters to me the most this season is obviously Cade. It's been up and up and up and even more up. So that's good. And obviously we're going to really get into it. But as far as in general is concerned, I mean, you guys know how much I hate the Raptors. It's nice to win one against the Raptors. It was very nice to beat Houston, you know,

because I think Cade soundly outplayed, but the issues that I am having with the team are probably the same issues that you guys are having in that I think we all understand that it's a rebuild but it's not normal to come out and be completely non-competitive night after night after night. It just feels like this this group can't seem to string together more than a game or two of being competitive before it completely falls apart and that's that's bad basketball. Nobody wants to watch that quite honestly, it's it's a little exhausting. You know, if Cade wasn't out there improving each and every game, I would be struggling

to turn the TV on. So that's probably where I would start with my thoughts. Yeah, there have been some difficult times without a doubt. Tonight against the Kings, the first quarter was just painful to watch him. I mean, I'm sure. Obviously, the players weren't really getting it done. The coaching was really frustrating. Dwayne Casey is not the most imaginative guy.

I mean, I feel like his flaws as a coach, namely just being very simple-minded offensively and very rigid are very pretty much well established at this point throughout the entirety of his Raptors tenure, which really ended with in his coach of the year's season, Masayu Jiri, who's the general manager for the Raptors, taking the offense away from him, saying we're going to a modern offense now. And Nick Nurse, who's now the head coach of the Raptors and is one the coach of the year himself, and Nick Nurse is going to run it. And then he comes to Pistons and made some improvements, but unimaginative, rigid, doesn't seem

the game, in my opinion, doesn't seem to game well from the offensive end. It's more of a, how does this player fit into my system rather than how can I maximize this player? But they're deaf, yeah, definitely the Cavaliers game was the low point of the season for me, without a doubt. Yeah. And Tommy, I know you were about as kind of like, I don't want to say traumatized off here. That's quite a word. But I know you were just as, you know what I mean. No, just about how thoroughly the Pistons were exposed in that game, the weaknesses of this team. weaknesses in terms of being very slow, not athletic, and vertically challenged. Yeah, they got slashed up by the Cavaliers game just kind of exposed the issues within the

front court of this team. And I guess to start, you just kind of have to address this elephant in the room because Isaiah Stewart has not had a good season thus far. And I know part of that is probably the fact that he had a fairly significant injury over the summer, but the lack of verdict, the lack of verticality. I mean, I feel like we've hammered this point over and over and over, but against the Cavaliers especially, it was just glaringly obvious. Isaiah Stewart is just really struggling to play against guys who are taller and who can jump higher than him. And part of it is, I don't know, it's acceptable to me because Isaiah Stewart plays great defense. Like when we were talking about Kelly Linnick versus Isaiah Stewart in the starting lineup, one of the things that I was

talking about was Isaiah Stewart is, he is legitimately switching. same one through five and I appreciate that but we're just losing so much I feel like right now the best thing would be to address it with the center who fit one fits better with Cade and two is a lob threat so I think that's where you have to start with this team recently because I think Isaiah Stewart is as much as I love him we all love him I think he's just kind of getting exposed out there yeah I think it's worth mentioning that last season he played alongside Mason Plumley You can say whatever Mason Plumley's faults are. He's tall, and he can play above the brim to a degree, which Isaiah Stewart cannot. And the games which Isaiah Stewart started were almost without exception against really basement teams.

T.T definitely has his strengths, but it's an overall common theme for me, basically, around this team just in terms of the physical shortcomings it has. Stewart definitely is one of those. Like, he got eaten really by Rishon Holmes again tonight. just Holmes had no trouble really beating him on the offensive boards or just really just jumping over him. You know, any of you who watched the game, you saw it. And it's tough to see. We all like Isaiah. But you look, for example, you want to maximize Cade.

Having a lopthreat is very nice. Obviously probably not going to have two seven footers like Cleveland does, but having a lopterrothed of any kind is nice. But not just that. Having athletic players is so helpful if you're just going to run a productive offense at the NBA level. When we were playing against the Cavs, we saw a baseball. Basically, they've got just a roster full of quick players. They are able to take the ball off the catch, attack with it, pass out to an open shooter or another guy who can attack off the catch. And they were just getting open opportunities galore.

And the Pistons on the other end looked like they were playing in slow motion. And this kind of extends to how Weaver built the roster to a degree. I know that this is not the finished product. But for example, outside of Cade, he's had seven draft picks. Six of them have been below average NBA athletes. that this offseason, his signings were Kelly Olinick, a bull average NBA athlete. Trey Lyles, a bull average NBA athletes. And then, you know, he kept Corey Joseph, a bull average NBA athletes.

And it hurts not having that athleticism. I mean, it's not there just for show. It hurts. You want these guys who can attack off the ball, who can move quickly off the ball, who can elevate, you know, who can cut and so on and so forth. And the businesses just don't have it. And especially when you have Cade and the floor, it's glaringly obvious, but it's missing, in my opinion. And isn't it compounded by the historically poor shooting too? Of course, everything is.

Sure, it is. But the lack of athleticism, right, is especially compounded by that when you consider that even, you know, some of the better shooting teams, right? If their shots aren't falling, you'd like to think that some of these top organizations have explosive athletic players who even when, you know, the field goal percentage is down, the jump shot percentage is down. They can still move explosively off the ball. they can still catch lobs, they can still attack the basket with some level of aggressiveness and find some success there. But unfortunately, outside of Cade and I guess Grant, when he decides to, nobody really attacks the basket with any kind of authority on this team.

And given the fact that we can't shoot for anything, the worst team in the NBA at shooting by far, this is why you're getting these horrendous offensive performances. Because when the shooting isn't there, which more often than not it isn't, There's nothing to fall back on. There's no plan B. There's nothing else that you can go to aside from contested mid-range jumpers or threes that are just not falling. And overall, it makes for just such an exceedingly ugly product.

And listen, we saw quite a few losses last year, obviously enough to secure the number one overall pick. None of us are strangers to watching losing basketball, but at least the team had the illusion of being competitive. It's been ugly. Yeah. And this year, you know, not so much. And it's like, who wants to watch that night after night?

Not me, you know? And I can't imagine that you guys do either. It's just not fun right now, not fun at all. Yeah, I will say this. Without leaving this conversation about athleticism and Isaiah Stewart, we briefly talked about what Dwayne Casey brings. I think the one thing that I want to give him and Troy Weaver credit for, because we mentioned his team building, these guys do compete night to night.

And it doesn't look like they're phased by. their struggles. They still play hard. So just, I feel like it's worth mentioning that. I do appreciate that still and I want to make mention of it. But going back to the lack of athleticism and the, this Isaiah Stewart thing, I think it's like two separate issues. You kind of have to, they're both rooted in the same cause. But on the defensive end, Isaiah Stewart is not athletic enough to deny the position of a pick and roll, both halves of the pick and roll. Like either the guard is going to get all the way to the rim or the big is just going to elevate over him. And I think that's why he's giving up these quick fouls. It's because he can't make that decision quickly enough. And it's a difficult job for

anybody. But if you're big enough and you show enough presence at the rim, which Isaiah Stewart hasn't been as much lately, you can compensate for that and you can stop it if you're like that good of a defensive big. And then on the offensive end, it's just so frustrating because I know Kade wants to throw lobs. It's, it's Oklahoma State all over again. There is just nobody he can Target. He had one guy, I believe, at Oklahoma State. It was, I think, the power forward. He had a more athletic lineup at Oklahoma State than he has with the business.

Caleb Boone, I think, was, if I'm thinking of the right name, it's been a while since I've watched any of those highlights. But even at Oklahoma State, like, it was difficult for Cade to get lobs. But literally, like, have we even, how many lobs have we completed this season? It's been, what? 13 games, right? Yeah. I remember one.

Yeah, zero. consistent lob threats on an NBA team. That's crazy to me. Not only is it just way more fun to watch. You talk about spacing on the floor. Vertical spacing is a thing. It is another threat that the defense has to account for,

and we don't have it. Well, I would say... We have it to an experiment. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Not much. I mean, I would just say it's not only vertical spacing. I mean, I know I brought up this kind of trial term of, I know it's not last.

spatial space and just athletic spacing basically, just the ability to beat your man off the ball and get an option open for somebody like Cade, which hardly anybody can do in this team, like hardly anybody at all. Like you run this handoff off the offense around the perimeter where you're just handing the ball off and off and off again. And the idea is, I would imagine, that you hand the ball off and, you know, somebody is able to attack off the ball, on the ball, whatever, gain some sort of separation and help break down the defense.

But instead it's just basically players handing the ball back and forth and nothing happening because it doesn't accomplish anything. If you had a more athletic lineup, maybe you can. You saw it tonight a little bit with Hamadu, and this was kind of the last five minutes garbage time. But you have a guy you can hand the ball off to, and then he can just accelerate the top speed and get a pretty decent opportunity to the net.

If you're handing the ball off to, I don't know, Sadiek Bay in the handoff, he has many strengths. Burst is not one of them. You hand it off to even Josh Jackson, who's athletic, but doesn't have the greatest burst. He's probably not going to get too much out of it. Just going on and on. But yeah, the vertical spacing is terrible.

It's absolutely terrible. And I said this before. I thought even going into the season that Weaver had kind of flubbed the third-string center situation. I mean, you sign a linic fine. I'm not a huge fan of it. But go out and get a third-string center who can just jump and score it powerfully in the paint. And he decided that wasn't necessary, which is a little weird to me because then, you know, even if, say, Isaiah or Kelly gets injured, then you don't really have a guy who can fill in it at the third string.

Why, this isn't it, obviously. He didn't really do anything well besides in the best of times shoot threes. And Garza, it was nice. He tries his hardest, you know. Goodness knows tries his hardest. But there are some things he can't do. Certainly Catch Wives is one of them. No, no, absolutely not.

And it's a good thing you brought up Diallo because what I sort of, by accident, cut you off there a few minutes ago, what I was going to say was in regards to the lack of a vertical threat on the team. Well, we do have one, but unfortunately he's on the bench yelling at Dwayne Casey. for God knows what reason. Actually, no, I do know what reason. I think the reason is because, and this is, I feel like the two of you might share this opinion, but this is something that I've just been thinking the past three, four games, and it even extends to other Detroit sports like the Lions and Jared Goff. And I think that resonates with a lot of listeners, but it's like,

when something is so obviously not working, and the back court, both on the bench and in the starting lineup, aside from Cade, is not working. The lack of athleticism is not working. The lack of not being able to play above the rim is not working. It's mind boggling to me, absolutely defiant of all conventional reality to not turn to Diallo on the bench. I understand he didn't have the best preseason. I'm pretty sure I'm on record of saying that he looked lost out there because, you know, he did. But when the product that you're putting out is so repugnant, I just can't fathom not turning elsewhere. And that's the very least, we can all admit that Diallo adds another dimension to the offense that

certainly isn't there without him. He's in a league full of elite athletes. He is in the top 1% of those athletes. You know, Cade can throw him lobs, right? So I just don't understand why he's glued to the bench. I don't know what Frank Jackson, who's been unable to, like he's had what two decent games out of 12 decent. I don't know what he offers that Diallo doesn't offer. I don't know what Corey Joseph offers that Diallo doesn't offer. If I was Hamidu, I'd be frustrated also. I mean, maybe he's going to be taking those frustrations to Sacramento. I don't know.

But I don't get it. I just don't get it. I would say as far as what he doesn't offer, I mean, Dwayne Casey decided upon this rotation early in the season, or before the season, rather. And that's what he does. He decides upon the rotation. And it takes some time to change it. I mean, remember two seasons ago, Christian Wood, it took him some time to really get

consistent playing time ahead of Thon Maker, Thonmaker. legitimately had zero history of success in the NBA. This is how Casey operates. I know he said 20 games in, we'll get the rotation squared up. But, yeah, I agree. I mean, it sure it still is early in the season. But when you look at this lineup, and the complete lack of explosiveness and leaving really almost across the board,

then you have one of the best athletes in the NBA. Who knows what's going on behind the scenes. But he's a guy you can use, you know, run him or run off ball screens on the way to the basket. Try to get somebody to stop him while Kate tosses him a bounce pass. And then he easily elevates over the defender. I mean, stuff like that. Run him on a pick and roll. I wanted Casey to do that all season.

He ran him on one pick and roll tonight. And what happened, Hamadu easily got to the basket. Sure, this is against the Kings. They still had some good players on the floor. But, I mean, I know we might be getting ahead of ourselves a little bit here. But, I mean, I just, how this season has gone so far, especially looking at the lineup and looking at the starting lineup with the lack of athleticism has really made me think about the fact that it's really, really, really hard to run a good offense in today's NBA. if you don't have, if you have more than like two below average athletes in the floor consistently. And I love them or not.

Cunningham, Hayes, Bay, Stewart, all below average NBA athletes in some capacity. So it gets you thinking, I mean, how many of these guys can you really in a long term have in the starting lineup if you want to put together a contender? Who would you move to the bench of those two? Well, I guess the options would really be Sadiq Bay, Hayes, and Stewart. I have my answer already. Stuart and Hayes. Yeah, I would say Stuart and Hayes. I think it's pretty clear-cut and obvious.

Like, Sadiq offers the most offensive firepower by magnitudes. Like, it's not even close. And God knows we need offense. Killian has been, and this is a whole separate thing. I don't know if we're ready to delve into that now, but, man, as much as I want him to succeed, when you're starting point guard, and I understand that he, you know, he came from an inferior league. I understand about his injury.

I get it. I get all of those things. But when it's commonplace for your starting point guard playing around 34, 35 minutes a game to score between zero and four points and nobody's surprised when that happens, that is, at that point, what in God's name is going on? Seriously, what in the world? And so Killian's got to hit the bench. And then Stewart, I mean, unless he grows two, three inches, you know, unless all of a sudden he can jump to the moon, long term. I don't know about that fit. So I think Kate and Sadiq are the only one safe in the starting lineup long term right now.

I agree with you that it should be, at least Killing should be in that conversation. But I was thinking about Isaiah Stewart recently. And I saw the question, what is Isaiah Stewart? He is not a pick and roll center. Like, he's not even a pick and pop center. All the progress that he made last season as a jump shooter, it hasn't displayed at all this season. For whatever reason, he's not taking shots. Yeah.

But he's not a lob threat. it's really difficult to get Stuart the ball in a pick and roll. And he knows it and the defense knows it. He doesn't even roll hard anymore because what's the point? You're not going to get it to him. And as skilled of a passer as Cade Cunningham is, you can tell he wants to throw the ball up. But if you're going to get the ball to Stewart in a pick and roll,

you have to like bounce passes. Yeah, exactly. Stuart has pretty poor hands too. And Stewart has to have really good position on the interior because once he gets there, Like he's really good at like getting the ball up to the backboard really good. Like Stewart doesn't even dunk on pick and rolls. Like if you're going to get the ball to Stewart in the paint, it's 99% of the time.

It's off the glass. He doesn't have that kind of verticality. So what he is right now is a low post player. And he's really good at it. Like he has decent touch around the rim. He had I think what like a 9 out of 10 field goal game recently? I could be wrong on that. But you don't need 20 points against the Raptors.

Yeah. Right. And you don't need Cade Cunningham to assist you with that. I think the most effective use for Stuart, if he's going to be a post player, bring him off the bench. He's still your energy guy. He's still part of your organization. And right now he's not good enough that it's like an obvious thing that he has to be a starter in the league. He's still very young and he's got promised.

But I think if you bring in a better fit, Stewart could go to the bench and be a part of your organization and he will eat against bench centers. And that's a good role for him. And then, well, here, I think we should move on to Killian soon, but is there anything else to say about Isaiah Stewart and kind of the deficiencies of the offense? I would say about Stewart that it's weird saying this, but I feel like him playing next to Mason Plumley kind of hit some of his deficiencies. Because Plumley is not a good center. We all know it. I mean, a guy, bless him, works as hard as anybody. And by all accounts, it's just a great team guy.

Not a very good center. I mean, the Pistons paid to dump him. didn't pay much, but paid to dump him. But Plumley, just the difference in their height and the fact that Plumlee can play above the rim is such a big thing. I mean, Plumley isn't really a great dunker, but yeah, he can play above the rim and you can't shovel the ball into the net above his arms. So, yeah, that's such a big thing, yeah. I mean, I think as long as we're on this topic, what do you guys think about just discussing

a bit about Sadiq Bay? I mean, I feel like we've seen some changes in his play in the last couple games. Yeah, I'm quartered. jump in a bit. One of the rare positives that I'm actually talking about with a smile on my face tonight. I mean, for as much as he's struggled this season, and believe me, he's struggled. He has not looked great. I would say at least half of these games, maybe more. But it's nights like tonight where he remains completely unfazed. He drains difficult shots and he finds a way to score a substantial amount of points, even when his overall game wasn't, you know, fantastic. These are

the kind of games that make me so optimistic about his long-term future as a scorer. I just, I can't, for as much as he struggled this season, I can't discount these performances because they pop up with enough frequency that you know it's not a fluke. You know that this is something that he's capable of. And yeah, maybe he's never going to be the guy who can put the ball on the ground, string together a combination of dribble moves and, you know, hit one mid-range in his defender's face. He can still be a guy who, in my opinion, can average 20 points per game.

I really do believe that. And I think that's somebody that Kate can use next to him, someone who can reliably space the floor and someone who, even when everything is not going right, is still able to score at relatively, you know, at a relatively high clip. I just can't say enough good things about them. And I'm really hoping that tonight is a turning point to where we start to see

some more consistency because this up and down city bay performances are, they're losing us games. They really are. So let's hope it's a turning point. I would say that his role really has changed over the last couple games, and I think that has played a part, of course, him hitting shots too, but has played a part in his improvement. So we spoke about the Sadiq Bay new offense experiments, which was more or less just giving him the ball and asking him to create an isolation, despite the fact that unfortunately Sadiq, despite, you know, has many good qualities, but he's not a good qualities, but he's not a good accelerator, he's not good at deceleration, he's not good at handling, he's not good of leaving. and those are four qualities that are very important. You don't have to have all of them, but are very important for isolation offense.

And beyond that, there are hardly any players in the league who are consistently good ISO players. Almost all of them are all-stars. And I feel like Sadiq was just being given the ball and being told, okay, try to create something from it. And that's going to be very difficult for him. The last couple of games, he's focused more toward his strengths. He can attack some guys off the dribble. He knows who they are. Guys, he can basically drive hard left on, hard right on on the baseline, or attack from off the ball,

catch it and just drive harder than that. And beyond that, he's just been focusing on threes and they're starting to fall more. I can't tell if he's adjusted back toward his old shot for him. But I was finding it really frustrating, just the offense, giving him the ball and saying, okay, please do something with it because he's not really very well suited physically to that, and it was getting frustrated to watch. He was doing a terrible job of it. The guy before tonight was shooting south of 50% around the rim.

That's terrible. And it's been good to see him get back. to the fundamentals. He looks a lot more confident doing it. Yeah, I guess what I would say about Bay is that I'm okay with the fact that they've experimented with him because going back to last year, pardon me, this is not something that any of us predicted him doing on the volume, at least, that he was doing it on this year. Trimming his game down and finding the best fit next to Kay, because I think that's going to be a point of emphasis in terms of our roster construction going to the future, finding the best role for Sadiq Bay in terms of maximizing his strength. And

while also making him a multidimensional player where he's not so predictable that it eventually starts taking away from his strengths. I think that's a balance that you have to strike. Like a lot of players have, you know, a strength. A lot of those guys, it's like three-point shooting. But if you're just a three-point shooter, guys are going to just play you really close and try to deny that. You have to be multifaceted.

I like the fact that they're taking this approach with Bay where it's like, yes, he can actually, you know, muscle into guys and attack inside. and that makes him a harder guard because now your defender has to take a step back. You have to be ready to deny Bay an easy driving lane because now you're like, on the scouting report, it's like, yeah, this guy can drive. He can put his shoulder into you. And if he catches you leaning or you're not planted, he can break you down and get decent position all the way to the rim. That is something that he is capable of.

But I am happy that he's taking more threes. I think long term, that is the ideal role for him. and it's not that we wanted him to stop taking threes or stop working on motion threes, but I was happy that he was trying more. But I think eventually his long-term role would be, you know, catch-and-shoot threes, play great defense, and then occasionally if you have the matchup, put a shoulder into a guy and attack, because I think that is something he's capable of.

Sadiq Bay is a strong dude. Very happy, for sure, with what he's displayed so far. I'm not going to sweat the fact that he's making poor decisions this early in a rebuilding season. It's fine with me. I like that the coaching staff and Sadiq Bayer are experimenting with new things. That's how you find out what you have. So does that take us to Killian Hayes or do we have more? I think, yeah, definitely Killian. I've been Killian's harshest critic amongst the three of us. Here's the thing. I mean, I like Killian. I've said many times in the podcast before. I think that he has a good degree of potential. I think that if everything cuts right for him,

then development rarely cuts 100% right for any player, you know, just for that, just with that qualification. I think he could be like, you know, the ninth, 10th best point card in the league. You know, that's a very good player. I mean, that would be a great outcome for Killian. But right now he's really pissing me off. And he's really pissing me off because the guy refuses to take the ball into the interior, like refuses to do it. I think he's done it twice, maybe three times, all of them in the same game. When I say talking about taking heart of the interior, I'm talking about accepting contact. He won't do it. And it just really bothers me because it's like, man, this is something that you have to do in the NBA.

All of your teammates are doing it. And you are severely hindering the offense when you're on the floor by refusing to. Like, legitimately, one of three things happens when he sees opposition in the interior. He gives up the ball. He tosses up a bad floater. Floters aren't efficient offense for hardly, you know, just for hardly anybody is the floater an efficient shot. And it's nowhere near as efficient as a shot in the restricted area.

Or he legitimately just takes the ball and runs away. And it's just a waste of time. He has been an unequivocal disaster as a ball handler. Like no ifs, or butts the game he had against the rafters that went well. It was entirely transition and perimeter playmaking against the team missing its only good rim protector. And it's Bulldog Guard Defender. So it's been real frustrating for me to watch him. Absolute Bulldog, excuse me, Bulldog Guard Defender himself.

I mean, I'm just thinking back to the days of what do they call them. I can't remember they had the nicknames, something along the lines of Bulldogs. Mike James and Lindsay Hunter from the championship year. So he's a great guard defender. He's been really impressive in that capacity. But beyond that, on offense, it's basically well-volume catch-and-shoot threes, and that's it. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I've said this before. I'll say it again. You could be a world-class defender, and quite honestly, the aptitude for defense that Killian's showing at his age is tremendous. You know, he looks like he could be at his peak, like a first-team all-defense guy. He really does.

But you could be the greatest defender who ever lived legitimately. And if you're not a factor to score, you don't have a place in the NBA. I can't stress that enough. And I think the big problem with Killian is, as we've repeatedly said, as Mike so eloquently just discussed right now, is the fact that he refuses, no matter what the circumstances, he refuses to attack the basket with even a modicum of confidence and a modicum of intent to score. And Mike is absolutely right. the vast majority of Killian's points, or I would say maybe even all of his points that weren't

straight up catch and shoot threes, came in transition, you know, just easy baskets that came around the rim. And the difference between how Killian played against the Raptors versus how he plays literally all of the time otherwise is that when he drove to the net, it felt like he had the intent to score, or at the very least the intent to try to score. Well, he only did it once. That's the trouble. Yeah, he only attacked the basket once. It was through an open lane. In the Raptor? Yeah, he had one shot attempt within the arc, if I remember correctly. It felt like more than that.

No, he... So Killian, the single time he attacked the basket was through a fully open lane, who was an uncontested way up could have been a dunk. Pretty much all of his playmaking in that game was either in transition or from the perimeter, pretty much. Bounce passes the guys in the interior passing into Stewart for a post up, passing to Grant for just a jumper right within the arch. he didn't actually do any off to drive playmaking,

and it's as nice as it is to have 10 assists. I mean, this was in a situation in which it was possible with no rim protection from the Raptors and Fred Van Fleet being out. Yeah. Yeah, even then, he still didn't play after we had to. I don't want to discount. I thought it was a decent enough performance.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it was great. You know, it definitely wasn't. And like I said, the bar is on the floor. And it was pretty depressing tonight. and listen, I'm not one to talk. I wasn't a big Killian Hayes fan pre-draft, but I was even less of a fan of Tyrese Halliburton. I thought that his ceiling was pretty severely limited

by a number of things. I mean, you could go back and listen to those episodes if you want, but I wasn't really a fan of either of them. I was a big lamello ball guy. But Tyrese is in a different class of play, like a different stratosphere as a player than Killian is, and it's so depressing to see. And I mean, listen, everybody has struggled on offense

to some degree. There's no doubt about that. but when Killian Hayes is your starting point guard, an effective, competent NBA offense cannot be run. That's just not going to happen. I'm not saying he's the only problem. He certainly isn't, but he's definitely not helping.

I would go so far as to say he's either the first or second biggest problem. So as far as Killian is concerned, I don't know if it's the bench. I don't know if it's the G League. Well, I do know it's not going to happen because Casey is married to this idea that Killian and Kate is going to work. And whether it does or doesn't, I don't know. not optimistic about it.

But the point remains that it's just not working right now. And I don't think the starting point card is where he belongs. I don't think that's his role. Casey is bound and determined to make it happen. So I don't know what you guys think, but I just, I've had enough with it. He's pissing him. Well, I agree with you guys. But I feel like I'm judging him completely differently than you guys because in my mind,

Kade is the primary ball handler. And Killian is just kind of the incidental transition, secondary ball handler. I don't see Killian even attempting to create so much in the half court. I feel like that responsibility goes to Cade, and his usage rate reflects that. But we talked a few episodes about what should Killian be? Should he be the backup point guard? Should he be 3 and D? Or should he still be like the primary, like, starting guard?

I think right now you're seeing kind of a metamorphosis of Killian's role because he is playing a 3&D role right now, effectively. And like the assists that you mentioned, like, yes, they are incidental and they are. are within the flow of the offense, but they're still displaying this recognition that Killian has for like the open man. It's not their bad passes. It's not the role that he was drafted to play. And that's fine. And if anything, that kind of works out for the Pistons because it's not two guys who are splitting the ball and are kind of wrestling for this one role. It's Cade Cunningham is the guy who is effectively creating offense on his own. And Killian is benefiting from that. It's not Killian trying, if I mean, if, if, if I'm just missing that Killian is trying

to be a primary guard and create his own advantages, sure. Maybe he is just doing it so poorly. I don't even see it. But right now I see just Killian taking a step back, playing the combo guard role. And I'm okay with that because I feel like it's, it's a more natural role for his deficiencies in the NBA. Still not good enough, though. Yeah, I don't think it's good enough at all. I mean, he's, so the natural comparison that comes up is Lonzo Ball, for example, Wanzo Ball, who similarly could be a better player, but refuses to drive into the interior and risk contact. So Lonzo Ball is effective in three capacities. Number one is defense. Of course, defense is good. Number two is his transition in perimeter playmaking, but mostly in

transition. It's good at that. And number three is shooting open threes on high volume. So useful player. He was useful player last season with the Pelicans and useful player now for the Bulls. Now, the thing with Lanzo is that he needs to be in the right situation. That is a situation in which he is not asked to do really anything on offense in the half court in terms of scoring besides a shoot open threes, which means being played next to a couple of guys who are excellent creators. That's what it was with Zion and Ingram and with the Pelicans. It's what it is this season with Levine and DeRosen, who as much as I have pillory DeRosen, as much as I doubt of the Bulls, I still think they're not going to really keep things going as they are right now, but DeRoson's been very good.

So the two of them, they create a ton of space for Alonzo. Zion and Ingram did the same thing, created a ton of space for him to just shoot open threes. Now, Killian doesn't exactly have that luxury. And he's always going to be playing next to Cade, who isn't the most athletic guy. He's athletic enough, but it's not an issue. You don't have to worry about Cade's eswitism. You do have to worry about everybody else's. So in the first place, that makes him a relatively poor fit.

And if you're playing the two of them together, you really have to find your athleticism in spades, elsewhere in the starting lineup. But just going back to the now, I mean, Killing, it's like sure you play defense. His 3 and D role, really. He shoots 3s on extremely low volume. Like, not counting tonight,

I believe he was attempting between 2 and 3 in night. So, I mean, the guy has still been a massive offensive minus. You can't just be a guy who's just going to shoot threes, and that's it. As far as ball handling,

I think the reason he was taken off of it is not just because of Kate. It's because he was, and this is a term I'm using, in its literal sense, incompetence as an NBA ball handler. The offense was a catastrophe with him handling the ball. Because he can't do anything with it. He can't break down defenses.

He would just come in. Defenses would completely not respect him. He wouldn't even try. Like, MB, when you were playing the 76ers that first time, was just standing there. He wouldn't try to do anything. He's a smart guy. He knows Killian's not even going to try. So, Killian just waste time with the ball.

But, yeah, you're just shooting threes on low volume, or even on high volume on this team, is not. going to be enough. Yes, I agree with you. And that's why I'm interested to see how this plays out because I don't think this is the final iteration of a 3-and-D role, because I do think it's trending that way. But think about what Killian was kind of billed to be starting at the beginning of the season. They were still trying to run offense through him. Now they're not. Like, they're slowly pulling him away from that. I think he will shoot more threes on volume because they catch and shoot three, like it's working. And that was one of the very few things.

that he was actually projecting some ability with last season. On low volume. On low volume, it's working. Very low volume, but he looks so much better with his feet set, and that has carried into this season. I think you can increase the volume. Killian, like, I know that, like, in general, you don't like sticking a guy in the corner

and he's not really a factor in the offense. With Killian, it's not the worst situation for him. I think he likes the corners, and I think he, it's it's not ideal because he's like your fifth man on offense and i don't know how kate cunning am sadique bay and kylian hayes like even with their current projections like conservatively like maybe all three of them shoot 40% on catch and shoot threes but how do you make that work how do you make that trio work exactly and that's and that's including a center who i still think like when i think about the center position i don't think uh 100% five out is effective i think you just lose too much if you

give up that kind of interior presence on offense. You want a guy who can shoot, obviously, but that's another discussion. That's the idea, yeah. Right. And then Jeremy Grant, like, some of these guys have to either take drastic improvements that I don't think they can make with their athleticism or you got to start like moving guys around. Like the decision might come down to like, you have to move on from Killian Hayes. You have to move on from Sidney Bay.

And those are difficult conversations and it's not going to be. something that happens right now. But I'm actually excited and encouraged by what we've seen recently from Killian because I know it's not the role that he was drafted to do, but I think it's a more natural fit for him. And in that sense, I think it's just kind of working out. I think the volume on the threes will increase. And yeah, there will be nights like tonight against Sacramento where he doesn't hit anything.

And in that situation, yeah, he's a big zero on offense because he's not generating anything and he's not drawing space. But if he can actually knock down this catch-and-shoe three ball with some consistency, he does provide some value to the offense. I think he can be a low-usage guy who actually benefits Cade when Cade is going to the offense. I think that's the name of the game. I think in the future I'm going to be like, how do you build the right team around Cade Cunningham?

I think Cade has already displayed that. Yeah, I think so. It's just with Cillian, how do you get that value out of him next to Cade? I mean, he's a guy, if he's a guy who's really just going to be able to handle transition, making and catch and shoot threes, when you have, he and Bay, basically Killing in Bay, neither of them particularly good off ball movers, just hanging around the perimeter. Can't do anything when they're off the ball. That's very one-al anyway when they're off the ball.

It's Bay can catch some passes, off cuts, whatever. I mean, it's just the thing with Killian, sure, you can play him next to K to begin in his threes. Is he a good fit? I would say, absolutely not. Like, absolutely not. A lot of what Killian is, yeah, a lot of what Killian is supposed to be is supposed to to be the use of his core vision and his passing. But if you're going to be playing K as that heliocentric center,

then how is that really going to be super useful to you? But you also just have to consider the greater utility of having a guy who's actually athletic who can explode to the basket, who can maybe attack some guys off the dribble and ideally shoot threes. Even if Killian becomes a good three-point shooter, I mean, are you really going to get the most out of both of them playing together? I think that answer to that is very much no, even of athleticism, more to concern. But it's like right now, yeah, if you're taking it. like seven catch and shoot three is a game and you're sinking those on good percentage and the

offense is really afraid of you there and cool you're more of a factor right now he's attempting like three and i think in that case is still a significant offensive minus and a hindrance to kate i agree with you i'm not sold on the idea that killin is the the solution next to kate because a lot of people are saying like yeah no this is a perfect fit not there yet at all keep in mind killing his was not drafted to be kate kate kaneham's compliment He was drafted to be like a heavy pick and roll ball handler. He just isn't there. It's not some genius move by Weaver.

It's just I think Killian is genuinely transitioning into a role that is better for Kade Cunningham's game. And that's all I want to say because, yes, I do think Kade Cunningham, let's move on him because he's been great. And now a quick word from our sponsor. Another week of the NFL season means another shot to win big at Draft King's sportsbook. New customers can bet just $1 on any NFL game and win $100 in free. bets if either team scores a point.

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See draftkings.com slash sportsbook for details. And if you have a gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler. Yeah. I don't think I told you guys this. So did you know, so I applied to the Ontario bar today. So I did, I had to put together this application. I had to go through this whole portal, write these statements, get these documents together. Got a nice little email that said, you know, congratulations on applying for your lawyer license.

I screenshot it. Send it to my parents getting all this love back. It was like the proudest moment of my life until I watched Kate Cunningham play basketball tonight. That became the new proudest moment of my life. Let me tell you something about Cade Cunningham. Cade Cunningham is so good that he's made a guy, me, who was already his biggest fan, eat his words because he's better than I thought he was going to be like seven games into his career.

So a few episodes ago, listeners will remember. I sort of cautioned everybody and I said, this is my bold take, but I was 100% convinced. I said, Cade Cunningham is not winning rookie of the year. He's not. He's off to too slow a start. based on, you know, his injury and the fact that he's being eased into the rotation and some other rookies have started off very strong yada yada yada yada whatever.

When Cade is allowed to be Cade, he just shines, man. And tonight he was really, him and Bay were really the only lights and what was otherwise a very, very dark game. I think, listen, I'll put it this way. All of the, all of the deficiencies in Cade's game, all of the talking points for why, you know, maybe he's not the generational prospect. Everyone thought he was, the athleticism, the drawing the free throws, this and that. All of those concerns, at least in my eyes, have been put to rest.

I'm not even willing to concede that he's a below average NBA athlete. I mean, seeing him run the floor in transition after grabbing a rebound, like, he's fast. He is. And that sort of in-and-out dribble move that he does, the one that froze Matisse Thibel, he's been going to that a lot. And I remember thinking that's going to get figured out very, very quick. But nobody seems to have figured it out. yet. He's getting to the rim with relative ease. His three-point shot is starting to fall not only at a

good rate, but also from a variety of ways he can hit in the catch and shoot. He can hit off the dribble. He can hit from the freaking logo. We saw that kind of buzzer-beater shot that he took a few games ago. And I just, it's been a while since I've seen a player. And when I say a while, I mean never. I don't, I don't remember the last time I saw a player on the Pistons with this skill set. And the fact that he's only 20 years old, and he's only going to keep getting better and better and better. I mean, what did you have, 25, 8 and 8, something like that tonight? Yeah, that's right. I'm going to plant my flag right now.

Cade one day is going to win an MVP, no doubt in my mind. You can call it premature if you want. I don't care. The guy is special. I agree. He's been very enjoyable to watch, and it's exciting to have a talent of his level with the Pistons. Just the way he sees the game is very impressive. He's still working out some kinks without a doubt that, you know, the turnovers are an issue that sometimes he just makes passes that may have worked in the NCAA where he still would have a turnover grown, but don't work in the NBA.

And I mean, bear in mind, he's still really working himself back into full game shape. I mean, it's only been playing for a couple weeks, I believe, maybe two and a half weeks out of them, but whatever the case. Just the way he sees the game is very impressive. I mean, if the defense gives like two inches, he's likely to find it and he's likely to hit the open man. he commands that he's really highly respected by the defenses like highly respected by the defenses uh i remember play tonight he was playing against against kings of course and he basically just took two steps toward the interior and he had after the pick i believe and even the third defender was edging was edging away from the perimeter just to make sure he'd be able to

stop kate and of course kate yeah this was actually sadique bay's defender and he just found bay immediately and that was an open three. There was another instance in which, I don't know, I don't want to try to remember exact instances and be wrong, but whatever the case, just his ability to find open guys and just to know what the defense is going to do. You know, if I do this, then this will happen. If I do that, then that will happen. And he can just see a few moves ahead. He's playing chess out there for sure. Yeah, absolutely he is. Yeah. I mean, it's been said by, you know, by a lot of analysts, you know, just kind of has that it factor, and it's true. I mean, the guys really just seems like a

basketball genius, obviously also just a great teammate, a great leader, very involved by all accounts with the coaching staff, even, and, you know, for whatever that means, they say he's constantly in communication with them. So it's exciting to see. And again, yeah, like you said, he's 20. I think he'll continue getting physically stronger. Yeah, he's been surprisingly good in terms of, you know, some acceleration in his handling, that double crossover up to the left hand and Annenobi against the Raptors in the last minute, I believe, was beautiful. So, yeah, I think we'll see him continue to improve even in the short term, just as he gets more acclimated to the NBA after missing all the training camp in preseason

in the early stages of the season. It's exciting, definitely. I'm a big fan. Yeah, he has turned it around so quickly and just a few things. One, he's clutch. We have that guy. I can't wait for Casey to just, the role that Grant is playing right now where it's like,

we go to Grant down the stretch and rely on him for ISIS. I can't wait for that to just that responsibility to be passed off to Cade. Two, the lack of athleticism, I think, honestly, I don't even think it matters anymore because functionally he's creating his advantages

the way that in an athletic, and to the same degree of effectiveness that a very athletic player would. And he's doing it through body control. He did it to Kevin. He took Kevin Durant one-on-one all the way to the rim, and he did it with just like this. I think I even talked about in the last episode, like this just this little minute hesitation one way, and he froze Kevin Durant for like a quarter of a second and then took it all the way.

It's beautiful to watch. And then lastly, I think we have our guy, like, who we can build around and who we should be building around because he's just that good. And I can't, like, it makes team building so much easier because you still need, like, a top player if you're, have any hope of getting a championship. And I know it's been, what, six or seven games, but really, like, he's just, the fact that he's this good, this quickly, and I think he's just going to get better by nature of the fact that he is, like he said, like basketball genius, he's recognizing, and he's learning more and more about the NBA. You give him real talent, you give him a vertical threat. Like, he's, you give him more options. That's what it is now. Maximize Cade,

give him as many options as possible, and trust him to work with that. You need to give him, you know, as many tools as possible and trust that he is going to be able to make use of them. I think that's where we are with Kate Cunningham right now, and I'm just so happy that he is on the Pistons. Yeah, of course, the operative concept here is building the right team around him, and I think the Pistons are a little ways away from that. But we've gone over that already. Yeah, I know it's something we're going to talk about for years to come because it's, for sure.

Well, we've got one long-term piece already. We've got Corey Joseph, so we're on that. I don't know if we want to tell. I don't know if we want to visit that today. We'll save that for a special hour-long Corey Joseph extravaganza. We'll do that. Yeah. Yeah, I've only got really a couple of other observations or one in particular.

And, you know, if you guys are ready to move on briefly from Kate, we're going to get to the user-submitted questions here pretty soon. Is Josh Jackson, whom, I am just thoroughly done with Josh Jackson. I'm just kind of, yeah, I'm really willing to just accept at this point that he is what he is. he's been a little bit less out of control than he was last season. But the guy doesn't make very good decisions. He can't hit his threes. And he still can be a little bit of a black hole. And I mean, just the not hitting his threes is enough to sink him.

He's pretty much the player he was last season, which is a shame. If he could hit his threes, you paid a guy $10 million a year to score like 10 points a game off the bench and play good defense. But he can't. And it's like, it's a little more frustrating to me also because going into the season, it was quite possibly going to just be him versus DiLov. And Josh just, Casey likes him. If he's getting the benefit of the doubt, it's not working. The season's young, but he's not hitting his shots.

He's just not hitting his shots. And if he's not hitting his shots, he's not an NBA player. He's just, he's not a positive NBA player. Yep. Yeah, I mean, extending off of that, I guess I've got another observation to Frank Jackson, Speaking of Jackson's, I mean, I think he hit a couple shots tonight, hit a couple shots the game before. Jackson, too. Yeah, it's, and this is my thing that I've consistently maintained is that when you have zero draft pedigree, when you have zero track record aside from, you know, putting up empty stats on a bad team of being a good shooter, when you're playing as poorly as Frank Jackson is, the conversation shouldn't be.

oh my god frank is in a slump it should be is frank an NBA player he doesn't have the leash he doesn't have the benefit of the doubt to be playing as poorly as he is and and this is a point that i've consistently maintained when you're that small and your role it really effectively is just to catch the ball and and hit threes and you're not hitting your threes what utility are you serving what are you doing out there i mean homadu diallo he's far from step curry i get it but if frank's not hitting his three's why not go with diallo that's that to me is it the way that this backup backcourt situation has played out is so incongruent it's so irreconcilable with what my idea is of competent team management that i just don't get it i mean frank corey josh whatever it's just a disaster

outside of k the guard position is just a disaster as a frank jackson stand i'll just say Like, who do you replace him with? Because I don't like Josh Jackson. We just established. I don't think any of us like him. Hamdo Diallo, I don't think he worked on his three ball over the summer. At least that it's not translating. Frank Jackson's archetype as a player, as a guy who can shoot movement threes

and plays, I think, underrated defense, even if he is small. Just off the bench, I'd give him time. I don't care. But he's not hitting them. That's the thing. He's not hitting. A lot of guys aren't hitting their shots right now. I agree with me.

No doubt. No doubt. Listen, Tommy, no doubt he's not, I get it. Lots of guys aren't hitting their threes. But my thing is, if you've got Frank Jackson, who's not hitting his threes, versus Hamadu Diallo, who's not hitting his threes, I know which one the more useful player is. Because at a certain point, Frank's going to stop becoming a spacing threat, too.

He doesn't have the track record to be shooting as poorly as he is. That's the thing, especially when you don't offer anything else. I mean, I disagree a little bit on the defense, but you and I sometimes see the game a bit differently. I'll give that to you. But I just don't understand his utility. if he's not hitting his shots. And I also don't see the benefit of giving him time when, you know, you got Diallo screaming in Casey's face and like, I get it.

So unless Diallo is imminently being traded for Marvin Bagley, I would rather go with him. That's the thing. So. Yeah. There's that. I mean, I think you're talking the 20 game rule, so to speak, which is what Casey said at at the beginning of the season early in the season. You know, we're not going to start making major changes until 20 games.

Frank does have the capacity to be very helpful to the Pistons. He is the one and only genuinely good off ball mover on the team, a guy who can accelerate very quickly, change directions quickly, run around screens. That's true. Yeah, he, you know, even just cut to the basket, he's decent at that because the guy's quick and he's a pretty good bleeper. So if you can get that working great, it opens up a new dimension to your offense, just having one of those guys on the floor.

Was last season a fluke? Who knows? And, you know, the fact is that the possibility that was a fluke is why you only got one and one, you know, one year in a team option. And if it was a fluke, well, it's only $3 million that you committed to in this season. and you know, you're going to be fine a new team in the offseason and good luck to you.

Fair enough. Yeah, but that's why I think he's getting that time. It does upset me that Hamadu is not getting the time when Josh Jackson has not played well at all. And Hamadu has continued to maintain as one of the highest ceilings on this team if you can get a shot together. Yep.

So, yeah. Well, I think that actually is a good way to transition to the user submitted questions because we have one that is kind of relevant to this discussion. We got one that says, if you could fire Dwayne, who would you want to hire, or would you fire Dwayne? So what's the question? Who would you hire?

Would you fire Dwayne? Because I guess Dante, why don't you kick it off? Because, I mean, I know you don't like his rotation. So if you could fire Dwayne, Casey. Yeah. Here's the thing with Casey is that for as much credit as we give him as a player development coach. And I mean, listen, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. But what I do know for a bona fide fact is that Casey's players, for the most part,

excluding the Christian Woods and the Hamadu Diallo's. They do like him. You know, he gets them to buy in. He gets them to play hard. But at the end of the day, there's a lot more to being an NBA coach than having your players like you. So Casey dating back to his time in Toronto was just not the guy when it came to in-game management.

He just isn't. You know, Raptors fans, after he wins coach of the year, complaining about his rotations, complaining about his personnel usage and being completely understanding, if not happy, that he got fired after a season like that, that should tell you all you need to know. You know, dedicated fans of a team who have such a strong opinion about him should tell you that this is a coach with a limited ceiling. And the fact is that that limited ceiling is a direct result of,

in my opinion, a few things. Number one, he's just an appalling offensive mind. He is a terrible offensive-minded coach. And I think he gets a little political. You know, I think he plays favorites. This is something that the three of us have been debating for a week regarding Corey Joseph. I think Cory Joseph is one of his favorites. So regardless of how Corey plays, he's going to keep trotting him out there. Regardless about Josh plays, regardless about Frank plays.

You know, guys earn the benefit of the doubt who sometimes in my opinion shouldn't have earned it. But would I fire him? I mean, I guess maybe. I don't imagine that Casey's going to be fired and then not be a part of the piston. I think he's going to be a part of the Pistons long term. I know there was some thought about him joining the front office. But as far as who I would higher in his place. I mean, it's not my job to choose, right? I mean, I don't know who's going to be available, who might be out there, but that's Troy Weaver's job ultimately. And quite honestly, if Casey is to step down, Troy's really hitching his wagon to the next coach that he chooses, and I think it's going to be critical not only for developing Cade and the rest of the young

talent on this team, but getting this core to continue to buy in as he kind of treads some rocky waters. So I don't know if Casey's going to get fired. Would I do it maybe? And who would I replace him with? I don't know. I honestly, I mean, honestly, at this point, you're 13 games into a very, is it 13 games, whatever? You're not even a quarter of a way into a frustrating season or rebuilding season, rather. It's been frustrating so far. And, you know, you wait and see how things go. I mean, if the pistons are like not won a single game and even blown out in every single contest, then then you have ownership and management starting to think, well, something's got to change. because this is a laughing stock.

It's miserable for the players. It's miserable for the fans. No, I don't think at this point it makes sense to fire Dwayne Casey. But my goodness, do I wish that he had an assisting coach like Nick Nurse? Do you have Troy Weaver who could say, okay, Dwayne, we'd really like you to let this offensive mind participate more in planning the offense because, yeah, Dwayne is a bad, I think in my opinion, is a bad offensive coach. Simple-minded, not innovative, does not adjust well, does not get the best out of his players

by any means. So it's frustrating to see, especially. at times like the first quarter of today's game in which it's like okay well things aren't going well let's keep doing the same thing let's just have people stand still around the perimeter that's dwayne casey special no off ball screens really doesn't like those long too those part yeah let's not coach shot selection for our good players have him with lowrian de rosen and same thing happens with jeremy grant yeah it's it's frustrating it's really frustrating but i don't think it's a situation in which you start looking to replace the coach no definitely not

I wouldn't fire Casey right now. I think when you're 3 and 10, you have a very young team. It's really easy for your locker room to go to, well, it's really easy for that to go off the rails. And I think Dwayne Casey, what he does do is kind of keep them focused on the long-term goal. I mean, the team knew they were tanking last year and they seemed fine, and they still came out and played hard. For all of Casey's deficits on a rebuilding team that kind of knows that they're not trying super hard to win,

right now from an organizational standpoint. I think Casey is valuable just for keeping the team focused and keeping them grounded and not unhappy. So I value that. I don't think he's the long-term solution, but I value that right now. All right. So unless you guys have further to say, anything further to say, rather let's move on to the next one. Ignoring other guys in the team in an ideal world should Kate play next to another ball handler

in the short term and long term. So my thoughts on this, we no longer. live in an NBA world and much you just have the point guard doing the vast majority of the handling. I mean, ideally in today's NBA, you want all the guys to be able to take the ball off the pass and be able to distribute just the drive and kick and kick offense. I know that Tommy loves so much from the heat. And I've said it before, I'll say it again. Spolster is a brilliant coach. Like, absolutely. So, no, I don't think you need to play Cade next to another like dedicated tier. Give me the ball and I'll hand it and I'll run the

offense or give me the ball and I'll make something happen sort of ball handle. No, I don't think that's necessary. I don't think you want to play them next to four guys who can't handle it at all, but that's just the reality of today's NBA. I mean, you're going to have maybe a couple guys who just don't want to be handling the ball, but in a successful offense, you're going to have, you know, a solid two or three guys, three plus really, who can take the ball and drive in and pass with it. So, no, I think that's your best competition. supplement, you know, just by cost and by fit. And, you know, if you're thinking about cost is, you know, you don't really, whatever, forget cost.

My answer is no. I think that K'd's going to be that heliocentric ball, excuse me, a heliocentric ball handler that he was profiled as. And no, I don't think you need to play him next to another ball handler. I think you give him the ball and let him go to work. Absolutely. I agree with you. I think what you do is you get Kade as many options as you can and you trust him to make use of them. that's that's i think the winning formula with kade cunningham his recognition is just it's next level

just give him a lob threat give him guys who he can pass who who are moving around on the perimeter i trust that he'll find those guys and that he'll make full use of those options so that's what i want yeah i totally agree totally agree i think long term uh most of our success is going to come from giving kate the ball and and like mike said letting him go to work and the organization is best served quite honestly in terms of putting pieces around him. When Cade goes to work, you want him to have as many options as possible. Whether or not that option is another ball handler, I mean, maybe to a small degree, but overall, I would say I agree with you guys.

He can get it done himself, and it's just about putting the right players around them. Definitely. All right. The next question is, if you could bring any former piston back that's still in the NBA, who would it be and why? You can't choose the same answer as someone else. So I'll let somebody else go first. I'll start out.

And I would say, you know, without regard to what he's paid right now, I would say it would be Tobias Harris. I know Chris Middleton's an easy answer, so I'm going to avoid that one. I love Tobias, always have. I mean, the guy, to me, is just, you know, beyond what he can do on the court is a model sportsman, a great teammate, and just a great guy overall by every account, by anything that's ever been said about him. As far as what he can do on the courts, I mean, you think about this guy next to Cade, taking the ball off the pass, he can do anything with him. You can shoot pull-up threes. He can shoot pull-up jumpers. He can drive to the nets.

He's athletic. He's quick. And he'll do literally whatever the coach wants him to do in the offense. So I think he's one of these secondary scores who would really just function super well and ex-Decate. Defensively, he doesn't really have it quite as much. And he's also paid an enormous amount of money. But if we're talking without recourse to salary, yeah, I'd love to have.

I think Tobias would be such a great fit next decade. And he's just such a good guy to have any team. You do, however, have to have a coach who's going to tell him to do stuff because he defers to the offense kind of be a fault. But Doc Rivers has done a good job of that, both with the clippers and the Sixers. It can easily be done with the right coach. Yeah, no, that was a good one, Mike. I'm going to have to go with Jalilal Khifor.

No, I'm just completely. You took mine. I was going to say, let's get that number one pick again. It may as well, eh? I mean, in all seriousness, I would probably, yeah, Middleton's the easy answer. I would probably go with Spencer Dinwiddie. I like Dinwiddie when he was here. He obviously didn't show nearly.

what he showed when he left. I mean, the players who pretend that Dinwiddie was very obviously a star in the making, I mean, I think that's a bit revisionist. I don't think it's true. But this current iteration of Dinwiddie, I think would be, you know, in a pinch, a really good player next to Cade. And I think that running the bench offense, man, he would be, I think he'd really change the dynamic of this team a lot. And I like his personality. I like his attitude. I think he'd be a lot of fun. My hesitation with my answer is that I really like the DNA of the team and the fact that They're kind of all built within the purpose of like hard nose defense. But I'm still going to go with Christian Wood.

I think he would cover up a lot of the deficiencies of this offense. He is a lob threat who can jump out of the building, shoots the three ball. Well, I think he could play the power forward. I like him more as a center, but I think he could play the power forward just as well. And I really miss having him on the team. He was a fun player. I watched his highlights so many times over that summer where we were like kind of in limbo on signing him.

But Christian Wood. This is a good question. I think we would all obviously take Chris Millerton. He fits the team really well. But outside of Chris Millington, I guess, as those three guys. Yeah, I would qualify just with regard to Wood. I have never been sold on his attitude and just his, I don't like the word maturity, but just how he would conduct himself as a teammate.

I was wary of it even when he was with the Pistons. And there have been some cracks, it seems, with the Rockets. So that that's one of the things that kind of worn me off from Wood. But I agree. you have him playing as the center next to next to kaden in this roster you're much better suited offensively without a doubt be a lot of fun too it would be fun christian wood was fun to watch play i think if you guys are good on on that we can move into what i think is the last question here uh last question yeah last question what is your ideal timeline for the pistons moving forward i assume this

question means timeline is in where and when do we fit these pieces into the eventual hopeful run to a championship. I mean, I would probably break it down like this. I think despite how bad, you know, me personally, I wanted to make the plan. I think we're probably headed for another top five pick this year. Really what you want to do right now is just let Cade kind of work. Hopefully he accrues enough stats to win rookie of the year and he has a nice, you know, little baseline to work off what potentially could be a Hall of Fame career. And then next season, you know, you got Blake's money coming off the books. I would like to see another how do I want to put this?

A player who at the very least could maybe potentially take over a game, you know, high level score, I'd like to see us add that guy with the boatload of extra money we're going to have and maybe potentially be a play in team next year, maybe sneak into the eighth or seventh seed. And then year three, you know, so two seasons from now, I'd like to see us maybe win a playoff series or at least be competitive in the playoffs and then up and up and up and up from there.

So that's sort of the timeline I'd say we're operating on right now, at least in my mind. I would say probably just in terms of salaries coming off the books and when you actually try to go in on free agency and make a big splash. It looks like 2023 is kind of it by default. So it gives you, you know, this season into 2022 draft. And then depending on how good the Pistons are, maybe you get another good pick in 2023. And at that point, you really start to spend that cap space that you've shepherded into the. that free agency and hopefully guys are available. Obviously, you don't want to see it be a situation like it was with Dumars who is like,

you know, have cap space, spend cap space. Even if it's on guys, you should not be spending cap space on. Another thing about 2023 is it is the last season before, at least when it comes to Bay and Stewart. So they'll come up for contract extensions in 2024, excuse me, for new contract. So, you know, if you're going to pay them any money, that's going to factor into things. Grant does come off the books in 2023. You can decide what to do then. If you keep him, there is a large cap hold, though.

That would come into play. But nonetheless, I think that's where you have to go. Yeah, I agree with you, Mike. 2023. 2022, I'm just looking ahead at this draft, and there aren't any super obvious fits. And even if there was, like, your chances of getting, like, a great fit. because that's obviously a great player you're talking about. Chances of that are slim.

I know everybody's talking about Jaden Hardy. He hasn't been shooting it super well thus far. He's displaying his range, but even defensively, I don't think he fits super well. Paula Bunkero, a lot of what he is, it's not so much athleticism. He was a point guard in high school. He has point guard skills, but if you're talking about you want Kid Cunningham running everything, is he really the best fit? Chet Holgren, he's like 80 pounds soaking wet.

Jabari Smith moves a little bit slow for my taste, but I think he's a weaver guy. Like, I'm keeping an eye on him. Just, I love the draft. And right now, I don't see a guy who takes us to the next level in one season. But granted, the college season just started. And we don't even know at all where the pistons are going to end up picking. So with that in mind, I think 2023 is a more highly regarded draft. There is a little bit more hype behind that one.

That's Amani Bates. That's Victor Wenban Yama. And I'm sure there will be other great names. And I think if you punt one more season, you don't draft a guy who immediately raises your ceiling, rather, in 2022. You have all that money coming off in 2023. You trade some depth for some talent. I think that's your chance to really pivot and kind of try to explode out and attack the east.

And I think that's when you're just focusing on internal growth. a few years and that's your timeline to actually try to contend. And the thought of that is very, very exciting. I feel like we have a good start here. There are a lot of decisions that need to be made, ceilings and roles and contributions that need to be considered. But that's what I love about this stuff. And we love talking about it and can't wait to get to all that stuff when we eventually

get to. So good question. It was a fun Q&A. All right. Any final thoughts? Yeah, we got to wrap this episode up. I got to go hang out with my boy Corey. We're just going to go get a bite to eat. All right. All right. Wait night on the town.

All right, folks. Well, thank you for listening to Drive into the Baskets. We will catch you in the next episode.