Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 73: Big Trouble at Little Caesars: Making Sense of Detroit’s Tough Season (so far) - Part Two

Episode Date: November 30, 2021

This episode, the second of two parts, continues to break down the Pistons' persistent struggles to date---from players to coaching to happenstance. 

Welcome back, everybody, to Drive into the Basket, part of the Basketball Podcast Network. I am Mike, joined as always by Dante and Tommy, and this is part two of what was originally going to be a single part episode, but wound up going very long as a result of which we made the decision to split it into two. So we're just going to lead right into it with some discussion of everybody's genuine favorite player, Kate Cunningham. I'm glad you brought up Cade, because the next thing that I was going to say, and I know this is something we wanted to talk about was, you know, really, you know, really,

is Casey or the rest of the players, are we putting Kate in the best position to succeed here? And I would say the answer is a resounding no. Kate has impressed the hell out of all three of us for the vast majority of the season. I know maybe now is not the best time to say that because he struggled quite a bit. These last, I don't know, I want to say these last three games have been a struggle, especially his perimeter shooting. Almost exclusively his perimeter shooting. He is still going to be a good ball handler.

And that's what I like about Cade, is that he's so impactful, right? even when his shot isn't falling, that's the mark to me that you're looking at, you know, a future Hall of Fame player, a future, in my opinion, MVP. Kate is a special, special player. He's going to be a great player. There's no long-term concerns for me. But as far as right now, I don't think the Pistons are putting Kate in the best position to succeed at all. Number one is something that Tommy always brings up.

And it's the fact that we don't have a vertical threat. You know, someone, the other half of Cade's pick and roll genius, you know, is just not present on the roster. when there's a pick and roll, he resorts to probably a very risky bounce pass because his bigs can't go up and get it. Really, the only one who can go up and get it is like Diallo on this roster, or I guess Saban Lee, which he had a nice lob to him last night. So I mean, that's one aspect of it. Number two, this is something that I was saying yesterday watching the game. I don't understand why Kate appears to be being used as just a shooter. You know, I know he's, very heavy on the ball so that seems kind of counterintuitive to say but when you look at how

his shots actually um you know break down when you look at it later he's attempting just a crazy amount of of of threes and i almost wonder wouldn't it be more helpful for kade's game to start from the inside out you know to begin these games attacking the basket aggressively and using his size mismatch against guards and his skill mismatch against bigs to score at the rim to generate fouls And to see the ball go through the hoop a few times before he starts launching a million threes per game. So I just can't help but think that, you know, Cade is a special player in his own right. Don't get me wrong. But the way that he's being used is I just, I hate it.

I just hate it. And I know Tommy wants to jump in here. So yeah, Tommy, what do you think? Yeah, it definitely feels like we're settling for a lot of three-pointers because we are. And the problem with that is we are one of the worst shooting teams, not even in the NBA this season. in NBA history. Every team, yeah, every team that's going to do even like a two-second scouting report on us is going to be like, oh, well, they suck from the perimeter. Isaiah Stewart is their center who is not, he's not floor spacing.

So everybody just pack the pain, you know, sag off. If anybody tries to drive in, collapse. That is what every opposing defense is doing to us right now, and it's working wonderfully. And that's why it's supposed to switch to a zone, and that's why we lost that game so horribly. Like, every team knows that we can't shoot the ball right now. And that's why it feels like Cade is settling for so many threes is because, I mean, for one, he's not a good. He should be making them. Yeah.

Well, he should be making them, sure. But, like, anybody would have trouble driving into a packed paint like that. Yeah. If Cade had spacing options on the perimeter that were, like, good enough that they're like, okay, if I, if I sag off my guy, Kate Cunningham is going to get the ball to him, and that guy's going to put up a three, and that's a bad shot for me, for the opposition. But that's not really an option right now. Right now you want the Pistons to take a bunch of threes because we are not hitting them.

So anytime Cade Cunningham tries to drive inside, it's like three or four defenders coming in and playing help defense. It's just not going to work until team. He's still done well, too. It's impressive. He's still done well at driving in many situations. Which is crazy. Yeah, but it's double team.

He gets. It's double-teamed all the time. I don't know if you guys know that. When Casey decides to run a pick and roll, which I wish you would do more of, when Kate is the ball handler, the guy who's supposed to be guarding whoever sets the pick doesn't even follow the roller. You know, he drifts towards Cade. Cade is constantly getting double-teamed and even still he's producing.

So that's one aspect that makes me more optimistic about Cade, but it's another aspect that makes me less optimistic about how the team fits around him. because nobody else is really a threat to do much of anything. And Kate is having a much harder time than he otherwise would have with a better supporting cast and with a better offensive system. Yeah. So, I mean, this just does. I mean, this goes into two topics.

I mean, number one, yeah, how he's being utilized by Casey, who isn't really running very many pig and rolls, which is unfortunate. Yeah, there is the shooting. Unfortunately, I think with respect to the shooting, you just kind of have to wait and hope that it improves. I don't think you can just say, well, we're going to phone it in. We're just going to say, okay, we're not shooting well, so we're going to stop. We're really going to radically change the way we do things when you have players in the team who are capable of shooting well.

But it bleeds into another thing, you know, is really the development happening, is the team, or is Dwayne Casey's, whoever else conducting the team in a way that most suits development. And I guess we touched on this. I touched us on this a little bit earlier. I would say no, and this does come back to Casey a little bit. in that, you know, like, hey, dude, you're trying to develop these players, like, number one, toss them into a functioning offense, you know, even an offense that is generating good opportunities and not making them, which is sort of the case, but not really. I don't think it's optimal by any means.

But also, like, use these guys in the way that best befits them. Like Hamadu Dielo, for example, his greatest strength is his ability to drive in the net. He did so pretty darn well with the Thunder even last year on a bad team. I mean, even after the SGA injury. And how often does he get to drive the basket? Do you see Hamidio go get pick and rolls called for him? No. No.

He pretty much just for the most part goes and sits in the right corner and maybe we'll try to move around or whatever, but does he get the ball? No, no, he doesn't. Does he get a lot of pick and rolls call it for him? No, Bay is being constantly run on sets for which he is not equipped. They're not trying at all to make him into a motion three. three-point shooter. And, you know, the pistons need more of those. And we already know

Bacon attack mismatches and run through open lanes. But instead you're having him just kind of like try to freight train his way to the basket or take bad mid-range pull-ups or turnarounds. Let's see. Who else is there? I mean, do you get guys in the team who, I mean, I could go into Josh Jackson. And there's nothing to be said about Josh Jackson anymore. And he doesn't really fall into that category. But like Isaiah Stewart, okay, you're using him right now as a traditional center. If your plan is to use Isaiah Stewart as a traditional center on offense, you might as well just give up on any, I mean, we've been on record. We don't think, I don't think any of us thinks that Stewart is the long-term fit at starting center now. But if you plan to use in the

traditional center, you might as well just accept the fact, you know, Dwayne Casey that that Isaiah Stewart is going to be a backup center. You cannot be a positive value player, you know, with his limitations if he's not shooting. No, it's answer butts. So stuff like that, it's like, it is not good for development. It's like Sabin-wee's on the floor. Tell him he has to shoot. Tell him he has to shoot when he gets the ball because he's not doing it. And I don't think this is a case of, oh, he's being told to and he's not doing it.

Stuff like that. I mean, is this all good for development? I would say no. And I would say that the environment in which is some of the roster construction, the complete, you know, the shortfall in athleticism, the, you know, the weakness at center. also not good for development. Development means a lot more than, you know, just playing, right? I feel like a lot of fans kind of feel like development is like it is in 2K.

It's like, yeah, you stick the young players in the lineup and then their overall goes up. It's like, you know, I always go back to the only exposure I ever had like in real life to development was when I was playing university soccer. I remember, you know, if you look me up, I actually played zero minutes. Like I didn't play at all. I was basically a developmental guy. That's all they really had me on for. And, you know, there's your off the field stuff. There was, you know, they pulled me in.

They're like, okay, you're too skinny. You got to hit the weight room. And it's like, okay, you can do that. But there's also on the field stuff, too, or in this case, on the court stuff. I remember for me, you know, I was playing this midfield position. And we would have what's called a breakout after the, it's similar to what it is in basketball. And then I would have to make a read, you know, which winger is making the correct run. And then you hit the pass at the right angle.

But in order for me to be able to make those reads, in order for me to be able to develop as a soccer player, the coaches needed to instruct other players to play in a way that empowered me to make those decisions. You know, they had to tailor their offensive scheme to make sure that those choices were even able to be made. And I was thinking about that when I was thinking about the lack of pick and rolls for Cade. And it's like, Cade is a pick and roll genius. He's a genius in the pick and roll. You know, watch him for two seconds in college. and you could see how special he is out of that set.

So the fact that he doesn't even get them called for him, it's like, well, how is development happening? It isn't. Development isn't happening just because Kate is out there. Development needs to happen because he needs to be put into positions that empower his development. You know, there's, of course, an element of, let's hope that these open three point shots start falling. And that's, you know, maybe he'll get into the rhythm of the game and he'll improve his shooting feel.

That's incumbent on Kate. to do but there's a whole aspect of development that entirely falls on the coaches and by proxy the rest of the team and it's like I don't know how you can look at this year's pistons where literally every single young player has regressed with the exception of Killian who was bad and he's still bad and and say that development is happening it's like there's more to development than playtime so anybody who thinks you know getting blown out every night and just the fact that the young guys are playing equates to them getting better, I would urge you to watch what's going on and tell me, number one, where you see tangible improvement and number two, what positions are these

players being put into that would lead to that improvement? I can't say one way or the other right now, whether development is happening. I just, there's probably too much going on behind the scenes. And obviously, if you're just talking about CARE's development, which I think is the most important thing this season. He just doesn't have the tools right now. He doesn't have floor spacers. He doesn't have a pick and roll center.

Right now, it's just a tough time for him. He's still making some impressive reads and driving into crowded paints and making these dump-off passes to Isaiah Stewart. He's still kicking it out onto the perimeter. He's still moving the ball. He's still doing good things. He just, you know, the roster around him is so poor. So I can't say that one way or the other, but we're what?

We're less than 20 games. into his rookie season. You know, things are going to be a little bit rough. I think one of the things that right now, everybody's talking about Evan Mowley's performance right now with the Cavaliers, he is benefiting from a significantly better team for him. Like, he really, he has a good time playing next to Jared Allen. A lot of his faults are hidden by Jared Allen.

Darius Garland is throwing him a lot of lobs. I forget what the percentage is, but so many of his buckets are assisted. Cade Cunningham, he is one of two offensive generators on this. team. It's really just going to be tough for him. And that's, that's just the nature of a rebuild. This is what a rebuild looks like to me. And it's, it is going to be a struggle. I would like to see the shot selection tailored significantly. But right now, that is like my main criticism, I guess. That was like the one thing that I would say, yeah, that needs to change immediately. That's something you can do midseason. But right now, I mean, the roster is kind of set the way it is.

They're not going to make significant changes. Guys just need to shoot it better. And we're not talking about Sorry to interrupt, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about what could they do right now. That would, I mean, are there things that they could do right now that Dwayne Casey in particular could do right now? curtail the shot selection. Well, what about running pick and rolls for Cade? Yeah, how you run the offense. I mean, like, you, it's a, I mean, I would say run them with Grant, but why would you do them with Isaiah Stewart?

He's a horrible pick and roll center. Because it's better for Cade to be running pick and, you know, you get better results. It's better for him to be doing it. I would say run them with Grant, if anything, because he's actually athletic and enough to roll. But it's not just the question of that. I mean, it's, it's the question of what do you do differently. Run him more pick and rolls. Get rid of this garbage of just passing the ball over and over and over again on the offense, particularly, you know, and on the perimeter particularly, because you've got so few guys who can actually take it and exploit a lane.

You know, you've got a team of a lot of really bad off ball movers, very few guys who can just take it and explode. Yes, there is no offball move. Yeah. That is how Steve Kerr beat the pistons with a bunch of bench players. Casey, Casey hates all. Casey is terrible running an offball. movement offense. Terrible. Oh, yeah. I mean, the Raptors did a better job at when Nick Nurse was more or less running things. They couldn't tell you exactly how much better they were. But they were actually running, like, they're running the season.

They're running a coherent offense. No, they're running a coherent offense. The off ball movement is crap. Casey has this ridiculous love-hate relationship with off-ball screens. Yeah, like he just said. There was one season in which he ran a lot of them. It was 2019, 2020. And for the most part, he just hates them.

And a lot of the time refuses to use them. Like the exterior, like the, the offense, where it's basically just passing around again and again and again on the perimeter, which often accomplishes nothing because he's just passing the ball and guys aren't setting screens, guys aren't moving properly. I mean, what's being done with Sadiq Bay, how Diollo is being used. I'm a big fan of Dielo, so you put that in there, but it's like you have a guy who can explode ball with a basket and you're not giving the ball or putting him a position.

It's like, yeah. Yeah, the question is, can you do things that would be better for these players' development? and I would argue yes, in that case he's not doing them. Well, the roster construction is what it is. And I don't think that's likely to change. But there are things that could be done better. Well, let me ask you this, Tommy. How do you, and not you, Tommy, specifically,

well, I guess I am asking you specifically because the fans aren't here to answer my question. But basically what I'm saying is, you know, how is Isaiah Stewart, for example, supposed to improve as a floor spacer if he's not being used as a floor spacer? How is Cade Cunningham going to improve as a pick and roll ball handler if there are no pick and roll is being run for him. You know, how is Sadiq going to improve at motion threes when he's not taking motion threes? How is Diallo going to prove in all facets of the game when all he's doing is being stuck in the corner?

It's like the roster construction is what it is. There are no significant changes that are going to be made. I get that. But the question is, like Mike keeps saying, is there something that you can do to empower these players, you know, to give them decisions to provide them with in-game situations that lend themselves to development because they actually have to think, you know, they're going to do these things. There's going to be repetition. They're going to improve in these areas of the game. Are there things that you can do to empower that development? I would argue the answer is a

resounding yes. And are those things happening? It's a resounding no. So, you know, that's what I want to ask you is how are these players going to develop if they're not put in positions to develop? I'm trying to remember all the questions that you just asked me, but the one that stuck out to me was Kade and Pick and Rolls. There is no pick and roll center for Kade Cunningham right now. Isaiah Stewart is not a pick and roll center. He is a low post play. He's much better if you just get the ball to him down. He still operates, Cade still operates well in the picking rule. No matter who you use, he is operated well.

I could be the rule. It's not optimal. I mean, Kate wants to throw lobs. It's not optimal, but he wants to throw locks, but what are you going to say? Oh, he doesn't have the greatest personnel next to him. So, you know, screw it. We're just not going to do it. I mean, he still operates at his best.

I don't want to run them because. Why? I mean, he's still at his best. He's still at his best when you're running them. I mean, why he's wondering why we've been arguing for two weeks. This is why we've been arguing. non stuff. Yeah, sure.

It's the usage of it, but like... What's your other option? What's your other option? Run just more perimeter. Well, I mean, Casey agrees with you, Tommy. I mean, he clearly doesn't think the pick and roll is a viable option for whatever reason, but... Well, they do run pick and rolls.

They just... Not really. It's like, it's exactly what you said, Dante. When Cade Cunningham runs in pick and roll, both defenders of the pick and roll, stick to Cade. Correct. Because what is, yeah, what is Cade going to do? What is Cade going to do?

very difficult pass to get it to Isaiah. I mean, it's got like he throws the ball over every fine. If he had a lob threat, then, yes, that's a great situation for Kaye, because then you just throw it up there and somebody gets it, but he can't do it. Yeah, we were, we didn't get, we were, this is a way in which we were did flub. I mean, he could have, for example, gone for a guy like Nerlin's Noel who cannot, you know, who cannot shoot, but he can at least catch lots score very strongly in the restricted area and assuming that he would have signed him of the distance, of course,

but it was just not a guarantee. And then Hamadu Diala, I think somebody, so many, some many, some many men, mention like why doesn't Hamdo Diallo get picking rolls? I know he's had a couple nice ones, but he doesn't have a jumper. Everybody's just going to sag off of him. I mean, he did this with OKC last year. He couldn't shoot back then. He still did very well get into the basket because basically you have to assign two guys

to him. And he can pass the ball. They don't just sag off. They'll go under the screen, but he's so fast and so explosive that he's generally going to get past them anyway. I mean, I've seen him pull up for mid-range. Yes, he has been pulling up from mid-range. But these are generally on short drives when he's not actually getting a pick.

He doesn't get picks. Casey doesn't give him those. And it's hard to generate offense. We don't have a lot of guys who are either even willing to pass the ball around and generate. He's not trying. The Warriors do very well. Right. They're not trying.

They're not running it off. He's not even trying. Yeah. And full of just like I will admit that is something that Casey absolutely does need to do better. That and the team needs to shoot the ball better. Obviously you need to shoot the ball better, but it's a question of like, do you have. I mean, the whole point of spacing is like you need to have spacing threats. And right now, just like the pistons have sustained.

an extended period of time where they are just shooting it horribly. Well, there are still some spacing threats in the team, and then there are instances in which the defenses are respecting them, but still stupid stuff is happening. I mean, Casey runs the same offense again and again and again and again. He doesn't tailor it to circumstances. He doesn't tailor it to players. And it's watching this sort of thing,

and part of this is just coach fatigue on my part, where it's like, you know, we've just lived through Casey's by no means the first coach the Pistons have had in recent years, to say the least, it's been many years of coaches who are just terrible on offense. But looking at it, it's like good grief enough. Like, do this super obvious stuff. This is not like, oh, you're a professional MBA coach who know what you're doing. We know this is not the case from 10 years of data that you're weak at this.

Like, what is wrong with you? So that's where I get aggravated. And I think a great deal of the way Casey operates is not by design. It's just because, well, I'm going to do things this way. And this is how I do them. and that's that yeah yeah our our podcast group chat has become very divided on a lot of these at one point we argue a lot about corey joseph too yeah i was going to say we have cori joseph oh my god it is it is it got so bad at one point mike sent like a super viable statistical

analysis and he tagged me in it he goes you know dante it's something like corey joseph is sixth and turnovers on the team but first an assist and i was just like yeah he's first to being ass or something like that. So it's become, we're all very passionate about this. And I mean, look, fans of the game, especially people who, you know, and I hope this is the case, like I hope we're able to analyze the game at a decent level. And people are going to see the game differently and see development differently. And that's fine.

You know, opposing viewpoints are fine. I think we can all, at the very least, find some common ground in agreeing that the team is not talented. The personnel is not optimal. Who we want to ascribe blame to that for. I mean, that's up for debate, but there are probably things that Casey can do to put these players in better positions to succeed. I think that's some common ground that we can definitely find. Yeah, I agree. And if you guys are ready, why don't we move on to our users submitted questions for the episode? I will only answer Corey Joseph questions. Okay. Well, we can start with the Corey Joseph questions.

Is there is there Cory Joseph questions? Yes, absolutely. Oh, let me take this one. Okay, you want to start it? Yeah, I'll just, I'll just read it out. I don't have it in front of me. I'm going to refine it a little bit. But basically, how is the team really benefiting from giving Corey Joseph a lot of minutes?

How is it going to hurt if we get the loss with more minutes for Saban Lee and Hamadut Diallo, though I just got to say, I don't think unless Casey and O'KC did do this. they did play Hamadudu Dielo summit point guard last season, but I don't think that's ever really been in the cards for Casey. So I think this is more of just the same in league question. Yeah. I mean, I get the basic principle behind giving Corey Joseph minutes. I mean, as much as I don't enjoy watching him,

I understand that he's a steadying presence. I understand that he's a veteran player. I understand that he's more than acceptable as a primary ball handler. Like, I get all of those things. I do wonder if there's a cap to how much benefit there is, because I don't really understand what the point is of having that steadying presence when you have a vested interest in making sure that Cade matures as a ball handler. I think Cade should have all the ball handling duties pretty much all the time.

Other than when he's not actually on the floor, of course, I think the team would benefit more from Corey being the second unit's ball handler. I think it would be good to disperse it like that. And as far as Saban is concerned, I'm a big Sabin league guy. You know, I think that it really just boils down to his jump shot. I was super optimistic when the first two threes that he took went in, when he was called up, I think, two games ago. But things have not looked good since then.

They've not looked great. So Corey Joseph, despite what I may have thought, Corey Joseph is definitely better than Sabin right now. So if the utility is we want to put the best players out there, I think the best answer is Corey. I think that's the benefit that maybe this question is implying that there might not be. There certainly is benefit. Now, is that benefit outweighed by the quote unquote development of getting Sabin in there or getting

Hami in there? That's going to depend on does Casey put these guys like we just got done saying? Does Casey put these guys in a position to develop once they're in there? So that's sort of my, maybe that was a bit jumbled. I got a lot of thoughts on Corey Joseph, but that's sort of how I would, begin to tackle that question. I would say with Corey Joseph, what he provides, that this is particularly important to this particular roster,

where it is at this particular point in time. Yes, he is a steady veteran player who does make mistakes from time to time, but for the most part, he knows where to be, what to do. If he does turn the ball over from time and occasionally, he had a spring of, excuse me, a spree of games in which he turned the ball over more than much more than usual, because typically he's quite safe with the ball. but it's basically just like the guy can achieve reliable penetration. He's a pretty good passer.

He's spaced the floor fairly well. And he is a steadying presence who, by all accounts, is very well liked by his teammates. And he's a leader and so on and so forth. Now, is he like a genuinely good NBA player? I'd say he's like at best, like an average NBA backup, which means on this team, on this team, he's pretty good player. It hates put it that way, but he is.

It sucks, but it's the truth. Yeah. So now, does it make sense to give him minutes over Saban? At this point, I would say yes. It gives the team a viable backup point guard. Saban Lee, I think highly of his potential. And he's got a lot there he could develop into. He's fairly cerebral.

He's a very good athlete and so on and so forth. Right now, I don't think he's ready. I think you put him on the, on the four of these last couple of games, and you see really what his flaws are. He's still not a willing shooter. He's still not a particularly good shooter. He is, his form's a little wonky.

Like when he's shot well from three with the drive, it was on the ball, entirely on the ball. And that's a helpful skill, by all means. But you have to be able to play off the ball two. And he is not willing to take off ball threes. He still struggles like getting into the basket. This is a little counterintuitive because Sabin is a very athletic player, but he still gets himself into a lot of positions in which he's trying to score from

below the rim or he's just not just in general not in good position to score at all. They still really hasn't learned to fully bring his athleticism to bear. So I don't think he's ready for the NBA right now. I don't think that throwing him in the deep end is really going to help him because there are just aspects of his game that he really needs to refine and become better at. And I don't, I think I'd rather have him doing that in the G League where he's got a pretty much full latitude to do almost anything he wants with very little pressure and hardly anything at stake versus tossing him into the NBA where he's up against the best competition you can

possibly find. And he's basically just going to be trying to keep his head above water. So I think it makes perfect sense. Now, if you're talking about starting Corey Joseph at the two, I think that is a bad idea. I don't think there's any reason for that. I think that happens because of Casey's just predilection toward, I like this player. I feel safe with this player. I'm going with this player.

I think it should have been Diallo or Frank Jackson these last two games. Totally agree. Totally agree. Yeah. Yeah. I do think Corey Joseph is better off the bench, but he should be a lead ball handler when he's on the floor. And if it was me, I would choose Frank Jackson to start. But I am, I don't know if I'm going to say happy that Sabin has gotten some minutes and we've gotten to see, like, everybody's kind of come back down to Earth on him because he'd had those big stat lines with the drive.

And people were like, yeah, Corey Joseph better than, or no, Sabin Lee, better than Corey Joseph. And that was, that was fun. but you need veteran players, especially on a young team like this. Like, if you want us to get blown out by 40 every night, yeah, start a roster with like eight rotation players as rookies and sophomores. Like, it's going to be a mess. So I don't know what, like, it's like people want two different things. It's like, do you want the team to be good or do you want them to play young players?

Because people want us to win. They want us to be competitive, but they want to see like only, like, significant roles going to the youngest players. It's like, do you actually think this player is good or is he just young? You know? So that was like a frustrating thing that happened. So I do think that Cory Joseph is a valuable piece for this team. Like he is, when I said one of two players who can generate offense on this team,

Corey Joseph is the other guy who can do it reliably. You need a guy like that. And yes, it's a little weird to me that Corey Joseph is starting Killian's absence. Yeah, absence. But it's, on the other hand, it's exactly what you said, Like, it's Casey trust this guy. You trust that things are going to go okay when he's on the floor. And even though maybe that hurts the development a little bit, it's like you said,

I don't think throwing guys into the deep end and just thrusting them into a role. Maybe it works, but maybe it just kind of destroys their confidence. Like Killian A started on opening night of his rookie season. I don't think that was a smart decision. They should have brought him along more slowly. Some guys like Cade, yeah, they seem to be able to handle it. Some guys can't do that. Like, you're talking about Hamadu Diallo and Frank Jass.

of these guys are making less than five million a year. They're not starting caliber players. Maybe they were just afraid of what would happen. Diallo, I think if he could shoot, then I think he could shoot, but that's his biggest thing. Credit to Hamadou Diallo. Like I said, I would eat crow on Hamadu Diallo. I did not think he was a rotation player. His hustle has been exceptional. Rebinding, too. I like watching. Yeah. He's really trying, and he's moving around on the floor on offense. I appreciate what Hamadu Diallo is doing. Yeah, Corey Joseph is a valuable piece of this team and he deserves minutes.

People want him benched for some reason. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think he's been certainly no worse than a lot of players in the roster and better than I'm better than most. And yeah, anyway, I'm just reiterating what's already been said. All right, let's move on to the next one. It hurts to ask, but can you discuss whether or not Sadiq is regressed up to this point in the season? And what do you guys think is causing this all-time bad shooting from the perimeter? that's a few even question. So the first one, the second one, I think all three of us can agree is just that

players are shooting badly. I don't think there's any particular reason for it. Players are missing shots that they should be making. It's sort of befuddling and it accounts for the pistons being an unbelievably bad pre-point shooting team. I don't know if either you guys disagree with that. I don't have no idea what it would be that is causing Sadiq-based struggles. Maybe it was working on the entire stuff all season.

I'm talking about the second one. You know, what do we think is causing this all-time bad shooting from the perimeter from the team? I think you have no idea. Yeah, I know there's been the John B-line narrative, but we talked about that a bit before we started recording. We don't really have enough information to discern whether or not, you know, that is a viable cause. And I mean, Mike thought of my point.

Yeah, it would be odd for just one random assistant to have had such a sweeping impact on, on everybody. But as far as Sadiq is concerned, like the first part of that question, I listen, I'm the Sadiq Bay guy, but I think he's just over-extended right now. I don't know if I'm ready to say that he's regressed as in he's literally a worse player, like, in fact, but he definitely is performing worse. And I think that that has to do with the fact that he's out of his element. You know, he's completely overextended. And if he went back to his role from last year, I bet you we'd see some, you know, significant improvement on his progression this year.

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So download the Draft King Sportsbook app now. use promo code TPPN, throw down $1 on any NFL game, and win $100 in free bets if either team scores a single point. That's promo code TPPN this week at Drafking Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NFL. Must be 21 or older in New Jersey, Indiana, or Pennsylvania only, new customers only, minimum $5 deposit and $1 wager required. One per customer, restrictions apply. See draftkings.com slash sportsbook for details. and if you have a gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler. Yeah, I just want to go to Baylon really quickly.

So Baylon is in there as a development coach. Yeah, we've heard that he did some work with Sadiq and his shots. I think what came out about Kate, I believe, was that he had decided to tweak his own shot. And nobody exactly knows what the issue, what happened around that, if there were any significant tweaks or not. I haven't really done a ton of looking into the differences in his shot form.

Maybe I'll do that, whatever the case. it would be incredible for a coach to come in and obliterated team shooting. I mean, this isn't like Thanos coming in. And it's like, okay, I'm going to snap my fingers and half of your shooting is going to go away. It would be impressive. It would be impressive. It would be impressive. It would be impressive.

I mean, teams would be hiring this guy in secret to go to other teams. You know, it's like, we'll give you like an amazing amount of money. Obviously, you can't do this. But, like, yeah, we'll find some way to reward you for going to another team and everything It's like we think that we think the pistons are really going to be a threat down the line. So make that happen. You know, that was the entire whole thing arc with the cavaliers. You know, it was it was all a plan from the beginning.

No, I don't think it's Bayline. That would be really strange. And also, yeah, I don't see any way you could do that. This year started out with a ton of players shooting badly, presumably because of the new ball. It remains befuddling. As for Sadiq, I've talked about him. I think that it's not, I don't think regression is the right way of talking about it. that is the right way of putting it rather because he is trying a lot of new things.

It's just like, are the things they're trying with him, do they make any sense? When you have a player, you're trying to run him on like isopossessions when he is in the lower echelons of the league, like lower lower echelons of the league in terms of acceleration, deceleration, handling, and leaping. Like, it's just, it seemed to me like a fool's errand from the very beginning. And I feel like they should really be keying in on very certain things. They're very specific things they're having him do which cater to his strengths, but Dwayne Casey is not good at playing in a way that caters do his player strengths. So instead, Sadiq is just being sent on barreling isolations and he's not passing also.

And it's not like for most players are not going to do this and really see substantive improvement. You're going to more focus on things, ways in which he can succeed. And Sadiq, when he has focused more on just shooting threes and attacking good opportunities, Casey has done better. And then he has reverted to doing it differently a couple of games later, and it's gone to crap. So I just don't think he's being, I think he is, yeah, he's being used outside of his area of effectiveness. Yeah, part of that is simply this roster lacks talent. You know, guys are being asked to step up into roles that really they shouldn't, in the long term, project to be. Grant is playing like a first option when realistically he should be like a third

option on a championship team. Sadiq Bay is playing like a third option when realistically he should be playing like a fifth option. We lack guys who can realistically take on those roles and other guys have to step up and they have to do things that they're maybe not inclined to do long term. And this is what that looks like. Sadiq Bay is taking significantly more difficult shots. He really should tailor his shot selection.

The only thing that I really think projects well into the future for Sadiq Bay other than the three-point shooting is the post-ups just because he's. he has so much strength on a lot of guys. And there was even that theory of like maybe Sadiq put on so much muscle and messed with his form. I don't, I can't speak to that. I'm not a doctor or sports, a trainer or anything like that.

But I hope it returns because Sadiq Bay is, he should be a part of this team's future. And if he doesn't continue to shoot, really, what is he? Yeah, I don't think it's an issue of this team has less talent and so we need him to do more things. I think they're just trying to say, well, we want to see what more you can be. Yeah, what are you capable of? Yeah.

Yeah. But I think, yeah, can you do that more. It can be more than just a shooter. But it's like, I can't think of a good metaphor for it. But it's like, generally, when we want to see, you know, we want you to expand your game is, you know, we think you'd be good at these things, not just take the ball and try to create a shot. It's just, it's frustrating for me. Yeah. Well, the development doesn't seem to be very guided.

you know it's it's more of like yeah Mike it's exactly what you said it's like here's the ball go do it and Cidig's probably like well what is it and Casey's like I have no idea so it's like you just kind of does whatever what would be good would be hey we notice that you're very very strong what might be good is to muscle your way into the paint you know in such and such way and then attempt to get a shot up you know maybe try to lay it in this way or that way but just to say hey you know let's do some size ups and spin around and then you can't get past your guys. So I guess I'm going to take a fade away long too.

It's like that's not really development. If there is guided development happening as far as what Cadiq should be doing on offense, then he's a very poor listener because I can't imagine the coaches are telling him to do what he ends up doing quite a significant amount of time. But it's like, yeah, yeah, he's just overextended and he doesn't seem to be getting some great coaching. Maybe I'm not qualified to say that, but it's like doesn't appear that way.

or he just doesn't have the situational awareness to pass the ball when he needs to that could be true too he's turned into a bit of a black hole you know there we we praised to be so much last year for man this guy always makes the right pass that was something that i loved about him and it's like man what a ball stopper he's become in this new role and it's it's really bringing down the offense as a whole you know i'm not a fan of this development in his game and i and i think that if you went back to being you know a cog in the offense i i don't think his basketball IQ disappeared over I think he knows what the right pass is, but he seems generally unwilling to make that pass now. And that's a bit troubling to me.

Or maybe he's just very determined to score, like once he decides, all right, I got to make something happen. Yeah, there's that too. You know, maybe I, it's pretty clear that Sadiq believes he can be more. So maybe he just has this opportunity and he doesn't want to let it go, you know, because isn't getting held up on your way to the basket, sort of a concession that, hey, I was unable to beat my guy. and then passing it away is like the ultimate like I couldn't do this. Maybe he's just determined.

Yeah. If that's the case, then that's really disheartening because you've effectively you've drawn defenders in. That means somebody else is open. You should be looking for that guy. For sure. Well, he's not. He's often.

Oh, go ahead, Mike. I mean, once he gets to the basket, yeah, they collapse. No, it's not just that. I mean, when he's drawing defenders on the drive, they're often like really right on him. Like, he's, the issue with Sadiq is that he is not quick. you know, by, they're explosive by any stretch whatsoever. He's got a lot of strengths.

He doesn't separate at all. Yeah, he doesn't separate about once, you know, might, maybe he's, he's gotten to his guy and he's pushing him, you know, he's very strong and he's pushing him toward the basket. That defender is draped over him. Another defender comes as well, and he's draped over him as well or very close to him. And that situation for any player is very difficult to have the space to throw a pass. You're pretty much just screwed. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you either stop and pass the ball, which is the ideal thing to do in that situation, or you continue toward the basket. it ends just take a bad shot or take it or stop it, you know, post up and take a turnaround. There's also a bad shot or whatever else. Yeah. And that doesn't work either. Yeah.

Do we want to move on to the, do we got time for one more? Well, yeah, we have time for two more because the last one is very short. Okay. Let's do two more. And it's entirely about you. It's about me. Yeah, we have about, actually three more. This is already a long episode.

So whatever. Maybe a two-parter. Who knows? I'm explaining this two parts. How concerned about your about kid's shot? Not really. Not. Yeah, not really.

I think, yeah, I'll look into it. It's possible. His shot does look a little bit different. I'm not going to say definitely has been tweaks since I haven't looked into it. But whatever the case, this guy's a proven shooter. I'm not concerned. It's strange. And if he did make that tweak, I wish he hadn't done it before his rookie season.

In part, just for my own, I don't know, like the level of enjoyment of watching can play but yeah but i'm not concerned i'm he's he's a proven shooter i'm confident he'll get it together yeah if he was hitting these threes he'd be averaging like honest to god if he could just like 20 points again yeah he would probably be at like 26 and six you know maybe 25 and six he he would be like far and away the rookie of year it's not even close but yeah he's a proven shooter i'm i'm not concerned at all it's annoying you know for my viewing pleasure uh and a lot of these threes are like come on man like wide open come on you're not even close but it's like like, yeah, he, and he's also like just butter from the line. Like his form is so good. And he's like,

what, close to 90%? At least he was. Like, he's an elite free throw shooter. So it's like, yeah, the shooting will come. I don't know when it's going to come, but it's coming. It's a nice thing that's, you know, there's his greatest area of concern is something that he has done very well in the past. So you don't really have to worry. Yeah, something he's already good on. Yeah. You know, I don't think, you know, I don't think you have to worry of, oh, is he going to become a good shooter? because he's already been a good shooter on a lot of that on difficult attempts. Yeah. Well, that's not entirely true.

Coming into his college season, it was like a 32%. Yeah. He's really functionally had one season where he was a good three-point shooter. And his shot looked really good. So when we talked about him even in our, I think we, I went back and I listened to the Kade Cunningham draft preview. And then early into the, like after we had drafted Kade, one of the questions, or one of the things I had said, it's not a guarantee. that his shot translates. And that was before

we knew that he was like thinking about tweaking his shot. But no, Kva's never, he wasn't guaranteed to be like a great shooter from day one. And there is a little bit of concern. I can't speak to the minutia of his jumper. Like, I don't know if he's actually changed it significantly.

I don't know if his release is different. I think they were working on his release point in terms of height. And that's a smart thing to do if you believe that you can make it a positive change. Because the NBA defense is a lot tougher and the hands are a lot higher. But there is, I'm not saying that I don't think he's going to get it together,

but I think there is like an actual issue here. I don't think this is an unlucky stretch. I think they've made some change and it's just going to take some work to get it back to form. But to say that Cade was not, there was no concern about Cade's shot, even going in, coming out of his season at Oklahoma State, there should have been concern. And if, you know, it's about the future. It's about the long term.

They're making this change because. they want him to get the shot off easier against NBA defense. Yeah, I don't agree necessarily that there was, that there was cause for concern. I mean, you have some players where it's like, oh, my goodness, this player just doesn't have it. The form looks terrible, whatever. Like Jalen Brown, for example, was not a good shooter in the NCAA. Yeah. But there weren't concerns because he was a mechanically good shooter.

Now, Kabe was a mechanically good shooter and also did well in the NCAA. I don't think it's really cause for concern, so to speak. He doesn't have like the long pedigree of like a Sadiq Bay who, I don't remember how many years, Sadieke, to Sadiq. Yeah, Sadiq is shot well from every level. Yeah, he has shot well. I don't remember how long he played in college, but whatever the case. He was either a senior or junior. Yeah, he was either four years, but you don't have that long pedigree, but you do have a player who's very mechanically sound and also a very, just a very hard worker and does have some history of success.

Yeah. Taking a lot of difficult threes at Oklahoma State. And terrific from the line. you know that can't be discounted that's the single most isn't that the biggest indicator of whether or not you're going to that's a strong indicator of like strong indicator of how your jump shot projects out yeah yeah i think he's going to tell me i love you but i hope you're wrong man i hope you're wrong because i i i'm not and again i'm not saying that i think it's going to be a long term issue but i don't think this is an unlucky stretch i think they've made some changes and it's just going to

take some time for those changes to work out that that may be the case as well that may be the case as well um what do we have two more two more all right so one is relates to Marvin Bagley's been a pretty hot topic. We know if he is in the block, we know that Weaver has, you know, it's been said, been keeping track of him. So,

question, any big men, you want the Pistons to acquire soon. And it's followed up with any player in general. Now, the latter question, it's just hard to say any player you want the Pistons to acquire, because I don't think the Pistons are going to be making, doing much this season.

They don't have really, have very little in the way of tradable assets. And the tradable assets, Well, let's put it this way. They have very little of the way in tradable assets, which they will be willing to trade. Because I think the young players for the most part are off the table. And outside of that, you've got second round picks and some really kind of like questionable bench players. So let's just make this one all about Marvin Bagley.

So Bagley, you know, the second overall pick and an exceptionally strong 2018 draft, like really strong draft. That draft from top to bottom is just like the number of guys who not only the number of guys who are good NBA players, but the number of guys, it's just a sheer number of guys who are even going to stick in the NBA or generated by that draft is really remarkable. Not only in the first round, even in the second round, that is just well above average. The number of guys will stick in the NBA. Here was the number two pick, picked above Luca Donchish. And basically, I like this story because, you know, we all know, being pissed and fans, having a bad owner can ruin your franchise.

Being a lion's a lion's fan, too. Yeah, exactly. Vivek Rana dive is just one of the worst, is the owner of the Sacramento Kings, one of the worst owners in the NBA, like full stop. Guys willing to spend money. He's not cheap. And I think like, just like Tom Gores, he just medals. And he medals more than, more than Gora's. did, and he just constantly meddled, constantly, constantly.

And when it came to Lukie, just Devach had not been in, in office as general manager, Florida Devach, who was GM at the time for very long, it's one time. He decides not to meddle, one time, because we know that Rana dive and his son, who apparently has some role in this process, both wanted Donchich, but they decided to let Devach stand by, they decided to let DeVos do his job. And he said, well, I want somebody who can run the pick and roll with Marvin with DeR and Fox. picked Marvin Bagley. And therefore, not only made a bad pick in an extremely strong draft, but missed out on

Luca Donchich, who is a generator, you can say generational talent about a lot of guys, and I think it's overused. Look at Donchich, which is an unbelievable basketball player. Yeah. So Bagley, fairly talented score, pretty athletic. I mean, not the longest player, but pretty, you know, but quite athletic. Horrifically bad defensive IQ. like Duke in his only season in the NCAA switched to his own partway through because he and Wendell Carter Jr., who is also on the team and had WCJ,

WMendle Carter Jr. has become a better defender at the NBA level. Bagley is not, but they both couldn't defend the pick and roll. For Bagley, it was a matter of IQ and his IQ is still terrible. So presumably the cost will be low. I believe they declined his fourth-year option already. And so he's a, or, am I right about that? Whatever the case, he's a free agent at the end of the season. I believe that would have been his full four-year rookie term. So it's a matter of what the Pistons would be winning up and what the, if the Kings would be willing to accept the package of like Josh Jackson, Tray Liles in a second. So I know I've been talking a long time. I wanted to tell that story, though. No, I love that story.

That's a good one. Have you seen the clip of Stavskis? Yes, absolutely. I think Staviscus made like 75 threes in a row. You know, it's like, yeah, it was, I mean, that was, you know, in solace, you know, consolation to Kings fans, the choices between Staviskis and Peyton. And Peyton is by no means a good NBA player. Yeah.

Yeah. They got Halberton, so I don't, I don't, well, no, I still feel bad for them. Anyway, I would, what a blunder. I would, I would be down to trade for Bagley because I know the defense is going to be bad, but one, we need a vertical threat and two. I feel like the Kings are such a horrible organization, and they've misused bag. They've misused baggly positionally. They were playing him at small forward for a while. I feel like if he came here, maybe he would benefit from a change of scenery.

And as much of a cliche thing as that is to say, I truly believe it, because Corey Joseph was a worse player when he was in Sacramento, then he gets traded here. And he gets a little better. I think maybe that could happen again. you know, bad organizations, they don't maximize their players. Pistons, I think they're starting to establish themselves as, like, a decent organization, and especially with the identity that they're developing. I think, you know, we are the type of organization where it's like, if you do trade for somebody, maybe they do come here and they get better.

So I would be so down. Or they don't. Oh, they don't. Like with Josh Jackson. Oh, with Dennis Smith, Jr. Yeah. I mean, you can say what you really did get injured. He's just also not a very good NBA player.

Right. Yeah, I think, I guess just to kind of round this question out, my knowledge of Marvin Bagley sort of ends at, you know, he's the darko of that draft. And I think it is to that level. I think so highly of Donchich. And then Tray Young is obviously great too. So it's like Kings fans that's got to hurt. That's got to be painful. But that is sort of where my knowledge of Bagley ended. I think Mike did a really good job of breaking down the pros and cons of his game. But I'll say this. A Marvin Bagley, trade. If a trade were to be made is the exact type of trade that the Pistons should be looking to make. You know, this is, and I mean, this is the exact same was, was said about Josh Jackson. And Josh Jackson, you know, the three of us are not fans at all. It appears to not really have worked out as we hoped it might, maybe could have. But, you know, I don't fault the trade at all. I think that's the exact type of trade the piston should have made at the time. And I would, I didn't make the trade. They signed him free. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So Josh Jackson was a but I mean the acquisition, let's call it.

That's the type of acquisition I would have liked to have seen the pistons made. Don't fault them for how it's worked out. And I would categorize Marvin Bagley as right along those same lines. So it's like, what's the harm really? Is the harm giving up, you know, Diallo when he's able to be traded is the harm getting up Josh Jackson? It's like I like Diallo a lot better than I like Josh. Would I be willing to give him up to roll the dice on Bagley? That's the question.

What do you give up for Bagley? I mean, I don't know. I don't do the Liles and Josh Jackson in a second. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, I would do that. I mean, it's a question of what second. The market won't begin for Bagley until December 15th. That's the first date.

Basically, that's the date after which players who were signed in free agency in 2021 can be traded. So the Kings. He's getting rotated now with Gentry. So maybe he'll boost his value. Yeah, who knows? Yeah, who knows? Absolutely. Maybe he heard it.

Yeah. Who knows what will happen? Who knows if he just wants out? But the 15th is the first day after which the Kings will reasonably be, according to Mark Stein at least. And just according to common sense, basically, you're going to wait until that day to see really what's available to you. Because that's when a lot more options become available, even if it's only for salary matching. But just more options become available.

So the question is, what are you willing to give up? What would the Kings want? and the Pistons would need to send out at least two players. The Kings could simply waive one of them. It doesn't really matter for them this season. They're at the roster limit also. But it's really what would they want? That's your question there.

And if it's just like a couple of second round picks, then cool, you send out Josh Jackson to send out Trey Liles. They probably wave Liles and they give Jackson. Would I send out Dielo? I don't know. I'm maybe one of the rare people who just remains high on Dielo. guy has a lot to offer. I think if he can shoot and then he's used properly. If he can shoot, that's a big question. It's a big question. If he can shoot and he's used properly,

I think he could start with the business at shooting guard and he'd be a good fit next to Gade because he's uber athletic. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, because imagine, I don't qualify with, he has to shoot, but still. Yeah, he has to shoot. If he can shoot, then you run Cade on the and the pick and roll and you have D.L. Outs the basket. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it'd be great. It's like, It's like you have him cut along the baseline and it's like, okay, now you have a lot of, you know, assuming that you have a good pick and roll center next to Kate. Now you have a lot of problems to worry about. So, or you just, or it's just a player, Kate can just catch on his way in, just going, just dribbling into the arc. You can throw lobster deallo. You, you know, he can create some offense on his own. Like if you force somebody to close out on him, we've been over this before. I think he has a lot of potential. It's a guy you could pay, you know, as, as, as. if you see a lot of improvement is a guy you can handle like a four-year contract at like $12 million a year. And if that works out, you know, sweet. And you've got a good player on a very affordable contract.

So. And I think he does need to be coached properly and developed properly. And he's going to have to learn to shoot. And it's definitely was kind of disheartening for me that he didn't really seemingly make much effort in the offseason on tailoring his shot or just no success, one of the two. But it seemed to be more of the former than the latter. But I could be wrong. Now, would I send Josh Jackson and Trey Liles and a couple second round picks? Yeah, sure.

Like, cool, Sacramento have your 2024, I think, second round pickback that we got in the Joseph trade. But that would be a pretty paltry package for them. Yeah, a tough sell for the fan base, too. It's like, hey, I know we didn't get Luca by it. Trey Liles, that might be tough. Well, you know this, so the pick that became Donovan Mitchell was traded by the Nuggets to the jazz in exchange for Tray Liles.

Imagine that. Imagine if you have Yokic, Murray, and Mitchell. Yeah, that would be good. Who knows if the nuggets would have taken up at that point. Yeah. See, it's not just the pistons with these colossal disasters of decision making. So, I mean, that sort of makes me feel better. But I don't know, man, Darko.

Wow. Stanley Johnson. He's the worst of all time. Now, Darko is the worst of all time because you have Darko and what is unequivocally the strongest draft in NBA history. Like unequivocally the strongest draft in NBA history. No way of the answer buts. You have four Hall of Famers in the top five.

He is not only the only player who is not a Hall of Famer. He busted out at the NBA after like six or seven seasons. Fun. Less, I think. Yeah. You know, that was just an unequivocal screw up. And Joe Doomarizier put together a championship team. That was an enormous mistake.

It's like, dude, if you had just taken these five guys, you had an 80% chance of getting a Hall of Famer. I know. I know. It was, come on. Yeah. Yeah. And on that horrible disappointment,

maybe this is actually pertinent to our last question. What's the last question? Which is for you, Dante? Oh, really? Yeah. It says, is Dante more likened toward Leavotte Blue or Molson? Oh, buddy. Moulson Canadian Leafs hockey.

Are you kidding me? Moulson. I'm going to, I mean, I heard, and I'm just saying this to, to poke a certain Australian listener that you're actually a big fan of Australian culture. and so you drink Fosters instead. I don't know what Fosters are. All I know is that Moulson is Moulson is good way there. It was just that Fosters was the subject.

I think in the long term, though, I don't watch enough enough like actual TV that has commercials in it anymore to know if this is still the case. It was this beer that was marketed as this Australian beer and the tag one was Foster's Australian for beer. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like something.

Well, now you know your drink of choice for watching the Pistons. Yeah, absolutely. to get you through 48 minutes of this. There we go. Very informative podcast today, guys. Good job. Absolutely. Yeah.

All right, folks. I think that's going to call it for this podcast. So as always, thank you for listening. I'll catch you in the next episode.