Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 75: On Various Pistons-Related Subjects

Episode Date: December 15, 2021

This episode meanders through such topics as potential adjustments to the starting lineup, projections on the ceiling of the Cunningham-Hayes pairing, favorite things about Cade so far, feelings about the course of the season thus far (just how bad was the roster meant to be?) and so on. Recorded prior to news of Jerami Grant's injury. 

Welcome, everybody, to Drive Into the Basket. This is Mike with a quick production note ahead of the episode. We actually recorded this on Saturday the 11th, not too long before we found out about Jeremy Grant's injury, which has him out indefinitely. We talked about Grant at certain points through the episode in ways that may not be quite as applicable now as they were prior to the injury, but we decided to just leave those in there for the sake of just keeping the episode as it was. So just wanted to make that clear just to avoid any confusion. With all that said, I hope you enjoy the episode. Welcome, everybody. Welcome back to driving to the basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike, joined as ever by Dante and Tommy.

Fellas, what's new? I know it's been more difficult Pistons basketball, but I don't know. Tell me something good. Well, in light of the 11 game losing streak, we've actually made an executive decision behind the scenes. I'm glad I get to be the one to present it to everybody. So basically, driving to the basket is going to turn into a Detroit Tiger's themed podcast. Oh, really? Yeah. That's what we're going to do.

Yes. Well, what are we, we're going to call it? Driving to first base. Oh, good job. Yeah. That's very applicable here. Yeah, I mean, we could make it a Red Wings podcast. Do we winging it to the basket or something? Winging it to the basket.

Yeah. It's a good one. I like that. Or a Detroit Lions themed podcast, so losing to the basket. That's another one. Yeah, they have an even lower winning percentage than the Pistons. Shockingly, and yet their one win, last week's win, was probably more exciting than the entire Piston season combined, honestly. I don't know about that, but it did a very exciting moment.

I think you just set the standards very low. That's true. That's true. That's a good moment. Yeah. So we didn't, we didn't, we're obviously not starting this episode just to rip on the Pistons. I mean, it's been a difficult time for all of us watching this team, which is underperformed quite a bit. And we're not going to talk about that.

I mean, there's only so much we can talk about the Pist and struggles really week after week. We all know how it is. Certain players struggling, the coaching being pretty poor and so on and so forth. And, you know, we'll get back to that at some point, but we thought we'd just take a bit of a change of pace and just make this sort of question and answer episode, not in the not really in the mailbag sense, but I've come up with a bunch of questions and we'll ask those. and just see where the discussion goes. Fun. Yes, indeed. So we're going to do these in no particular order.

This one is a non-piston's one, kind of actually. I suppose to use that to start out. This is completely arbitrary, the order in which I'm asking these. Just the first one I thought of. So we heard this week that the Indiana Pacers are pivoting to a rebuild and that they're willing to trade Carouselvert. They got Carouselvert from the nets by way of, the originally, excuse me, from the Nets by way of the rockets.

I'm putting that right. So they're willing to trade either him and either Miles Turner or DeMontas Sivanis. And this really feels like a mirror to the Pist and sold situation. The Pacers don't have a roster that's ever going to compete for a championship, or at least it looks very unlikely. So, and they've basically just been a first round team. And so my question is, would either of you be interested? interested in trading for any of those players and if so whom would you think the pistons could

reasonably trade i'd be interested in it um the problem is that you know takes two to tango right so not only would the pistons need to have some interest in these guys the pacers would also have to be willing to accept whatever we'd offer so i think it's pretty obvious that sabonis you know he's a great player but definitely 100% out of our price range for sure but miles turner and the three of us had this discussion over the course of the last few days. I really like Miles Turner. I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert on him, but I do remember all those battles with Drummond over the years. And look, Turner is, for all intents and purposes, his game comprises a lot of what we're missing. And that's size, shot blocking, rim running, you know, and he spaces the floor as well to a fairly

adequate degree. So I would totally be interested in bringing Turner in, but the problem is, you know, what do you offer the Pacers, right? And when the three of us were talking, you know, I tossed out Killian, but Killian doesn't hate to say it. He doesn't really have any value. So it's like, why would the Pacers do that? So as much as I'd like to bring Turner in, I just, I don't see a feasible way to make that happen as, as fun as it might be.

Yeah, I'm right there with you, Dante. Initially, I think I was more interested in Caris Lavert, but I found out that he's actually shooting quite poorly and he's kind of looking like an inefficient chucker right now. But Miles Turner, I think he'd be a fun name. and he actually fits our timeline decently. He's younger than I thought, and he's a good player. But the problem is I don't see how we facilitate a trade because most of the pieces that

the Pacers would be interested in are young guys who are projecting out to have value in the future. But the Pistons are like a year into a rebuild themselves so that we need those players too. Yeah. I think it would be like a three-team trade. And I just, I still don't even know what kind of trade pieces we would even have for like a player of that caliber. I just don't think we have the parts necessary.

Probably grand. We don't have a lot of guys. Yeah, granted one thing, I didn't consider a grant. That's an interesting. I don't want to move him. I still think that he's just being used above what he should be used. That's probably really poor English. But I just feel like he's not a second option.

He's been used as like a first or second option with the pistons thus far. And I think as a third option, he'd be great. Like, I like the way he plays when he's not trying to do too much. So I don't want to move on from him. And if not him, then I just don't think that there's much to offer. So what would that look like then? Like a Kade, Killian Bay, Stuart Turner lineup? No, I don't know.

I mean, this is another thing that could be brought up. Like, I get the feeling there's a certain sentiment out there that's just because Stewart is shorter than the average center that he's actually power forward. Stuart is an undersized center. Like the age when power forwards were basically just smaller centers, back, you know, back even before a stretch four, when the early days and when stretch four was a term,

stretch four doesn't exist anymore because if you can't shoot at power forward, you know, either you're a superstar in some way like Janus or, I don't know, Sabanus was an all-star at least. Probably Draymond. Or Draymond, yeah. And you're not a power, you're not power forward. I mean, you've got to be able to shoot otherwise. Yeah.

But, I mean, there are other characteristics. So you can't just say a steward's smaller than a, center and maybe he can shoot, he can play power forward. So it's way too slow to play power forward. It's just not a player who's going to be chasing guys around the perimeter and his primary strength on defense is in the interior. Yeah. So no, in that situation, um, uh, so what do you do?

Good question. Yeah. I mean, I should be clear. I didn't think Stewart fit best there. I just think, you know, Dwayne Casey makes some baffling decisions. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I got you. So, I mean, I'm just thinking about like, you know, what will you do?

else for in the lineup. I mean, you, I don't know, maybe you kick paid out. Yeah, that, yeah, that's an option. Yeah, no, that, that, that, I would say that. I would say, I would say you'd be a great backup five. So I would say, it's not only an option. I would say that's a given that you would bring Isaiah Stewart off the bench in that situation. I'm just thinking that you may be a move bay up to power forward and whatever, but ultimately it wouldn't matter. I mean, yeah, for my part, I don't think it makes sense to make a trade. I agree with you, Tommy, that, I mean, Turner could be, you know, it'd be good piece to have and who knows maybe he is more than he has been to this point in his

career. But to this point in this career, he's kind of been an excellent interior defender. He cannot take that away from him. He's been an excellent interior defender. Yeah. And he has been a weak rebounder. The guy is awful at getting contested rebounds. Just like really awful by the standards of NBA starting center, certainly very bad at it. And a relatively weak score. I mean, this season, he's finally shooting threes on a high percentage and fairly high volume. He's never done both of those before at the same time. generally he's been a fairly weak floor spacer like 30 not weak but not like a guy you want to just park on the perimeter and have most a lot of his offense come from there because he's shooting like the last few seasons it's like 35% maybe on open threes which is not a good mark and it's just not a very good interior score so yeah it'd be nice to have but i agree with you tommy having a guy uh at forward who can come out there and create a good amount of offense and maybe give you an efficient 20 points per game as like the is two a or excuse me as the two a excuse me as the two a excuse me as the two

2B or number three option that's very valuable to have. And it's just the replacement value at center. I mean, as such that if you have to pick between having equally good guys at center and forward, you take the forward, I would say, every time. Lavert is, I think at this point just is what he is. I think he's 27, and I'm not very confident he's going to be a good off-ball player and inefficient score now that he has ever been, really. Yeah, and then Sabonis, he doesn't address the issues where we still lack of vertical.

Yeah, I suppose Savonis, it's hard to say. He's a good player, for sure. He's a good player. It's hard to say if he's really going to be a guy who can defend at center if he's played there in a long term. But also, he's a guy who's so much of his offensive value comes to being a pivot and passing and whatnot. And ideally, you already have your really big ball handle or the future in Cade. So, yeah, I would say no on all three. I don't know if the Piscans have the juice to get Sabonis anyway, but the other two they could manage.

I would still say no. All right. Number two, my guess I said, these are in no particular order. What is, if you guys could make one adjustment at the starting lineup, and it doesn't need to be necessarily moving a player, you could just change how a player is being used, for example. Any major change in the starting lineup, what would it be? I would probably swap out Killian Hayes for Frank Jackson, and we were talking about this.

It's been a pretty big discussion point, just how rough the starting lineup looks, but I think Frank Jackson has pretty much come into his own this season. He had that slow start, but we kind of anticipated that he would just, with time and reps, he would get his footing. And I think one of the big problems with the starting lineup right now is that some guys are being asked to do too much. And I think Sadiq Bay is the primary culprit for that one.

I think Frank Jackson could take a lot more shots than Killing Hayes is willing to take. And that would ease the pressure on Sadiq Bay. and then Sadiq Bay can go back to being, you know, a fourth option on offense instead of like a fairly high usage third option. Because right now he's not taking that many. He's only taking like four or five fewer shots than Jeremy Grant. And that's probably way too high for him at least at this stage in his career. So I would put Frank Jackson in the starting lineup for Killian Hayes, let that guy shoot. He moves around a lot off ball.

He's aggressive in trying to look for his shot. And I think that's valuable right now because right now, you know, the team just lacks player. movement and ball movement. And the stagnant offense has been pretty brutal. So I would start Frank Jackson. I don't know. What do you guys think? Yeah, I wouldn't even say swapping out Hayes for Frank Jackson is like a good suggestion. I might even say that it's like eminently desirable, honestly. Like I don't really know why that change hasn't happened yet. I mean, Frank is not a perfect player. You know, he's got some size limitations. He's got some defensive limitations. but I've been really impressed with him since the early days of this season when I was getting on here every week and saying that he's unplayable, which he was, but he's improved significantly.

He's come into his own, like you said, and he's a really good off ball mover, which is something that we're obviously sorely lacking. So I think that probably the improvement you'd see if we were to make that switch in the starting lineup is twofold. I think one, it means Kate has the ball in his hands more. You know, I obviously Killian and him split bringing the ball up the court and indeed. initiating the offense, which to me is useless. You know, I don't think Killian can do much of anything at all. And I think Cade would benefit just from always having the ball, always initiating the offense and learning to grow as a player without as much ball handling support around

him, like kind of trial by fire a little bit, just kind of take it and go. And then the second part of that twofold improvement would obviously be the shooting. So Killian's been decent on catch and shoot threes this year, especially from the corner. But I don't know if that's just a slight uptap. in production or if that's for real, whereas we know that Frank Jackson is a for real shooter and the off ball movement as well. So I just imminently desirable if you ask me. I completely agree with you, Tommy. Honestly, I would switch Hayes out for Diallo too, which I don't think would be as useful as having Frank Jackson, but I just think Hayes belongs out of the starting

lineup. Yeah. Yeah, beginning of the year, Dante, you said that they were going to try to make the Killian Hayes, Cade Cunningham thing work. And that has been just a spot on predictions. Yeah, they've tried there. They've tried. tried. I see some reasons or some benefits to it. One, I think Killian is capable of bringing it up the floor in transition, and that eases a little bit of the workload off of Cade. And then defensively, I like Killian on ball. I think he is a strong on ball defender, and that is valuable as well. But other than that, I just think that the value of the offensive production that Frank would bring for this offense right now is just higher than whatever Killian is bringing right now, because he doesn't even want to take shots. He's taking like three or four shots a game. Yeah. That's just pitiful. It's resulted in so many extra shots for guys like Sadiq Bay.

Because it's like we talk about guys taking too many shots playing above their role, but somebody else has to take those shots then. And Killion Hayes isn't doing it and Isaiah Stewart isn't doing it. I mean, I disagree on that count. It's slightly sidetracking. I mean, we've talked about Sadiq in the way in which he's being used. I don't think he's being used as a wannabe creator just because they need somebody to take the shots.

I mean, I think they're using was a wannabe creator, because they want him to be a good creator, you know, as if that's not the hardest thing to do in the NBA. The shots he's taking are just bad. It's not like, oh, we need something to do with these possessions. It's, oh, Sadiq Bay is just taking it and trying to create something out of nothing and taking a bunch of bad shots. But just going back to the original, just the original question, I guess it would be sort of one A and one B for me. Yeah, one would be to turn, just move Sadiq back to his old role, you know, just the three-indie player who attacks matchups. you know, attacks difficult matchups, or excuse me, attacks easy matchups, like mismatches,

like when it ends up in a small player. Though it's much easier to get those matchups if your offense actually moves and sets off all screens. And right now the offense under the current coach doesn't do that because he really doesn't like off ball screens and doesn't like moving players a lot around because I don't know. Maybe it's too complicated or he just doesn't feel like the team to do it. I couldn't tell you possibly why. I'm not calling Dwayn't.

dumb, but I am. Okay, fair enough. I think he is, at this point, is long since unequivocally proven that he is bad at running an offense and is not innovative. And it's just, he doesn't, complexity is not his thing on offense at all. So, yeah, I think, yeah, just return Bay to that role. And if you want to try to incrementally throw in more, you know, more creation, have some work on this or that, then fine.

But at this point, it's just a disaster. And it's like it has, he and Killian doesn't do much. And Bay, when Bay is not really moving off the ball. He's just his role is apparently to stand there and wait to get the ball and decide what to do with it. And having he and Killian do that is so bad. So yeah, I would return him to his old role. And yeah, obviously I would do what you guys would say also put Frank Jackson in place of Killian. Having a motion three-point shooter, a guy who moves explosively around the perimeter opens your offense up so much.

Yeah. I mean, it's something, it's another option, number one. It's a good option to have. It also just that kind of off-ball movement really makes things much harder on the defense. Up-ball movement in general, like prolific off-ball movement is going to make things harder on the defense in general. But having a guy, they're always going to have to be chasing around screens. I mean, you want the maximum number of ways you can wrong foot the defense, which is the opposite of what this offense is doing right now.

No, this is an easy to defend offense. This is a big reason. I love that you brought that point. up. This is a big reason why, you know, down the stretch, we're just completely iced out of games, just completely shut out of games, is because when defenses need to lock in, you know, when it's crunch time, how hard is it really to defend guys who are just standing around the perimeter? You know, the Pistons offense in crunch time consists of one guy, usually Jeremy Grant, sometimes Kate Cunningham, trying to make something happen, dancing around, creating

their own shot, and the four remaining players standing still. So how easy is that to defend? It's incredibly easy to defend. I mean, you look on the far end of the spectrum as far as offball movement is Steve Kerr's offense. I've said it before. I'll say it again. I think Steve Kerr is a brilliant offensive coach and just an excellent overall coach who is constantly short-sold just because he has worked with so much talent. But his offense just revolves around generating mismatches through off-ball screens. Well, not only that, but that does.

That's an enormous facet of his offense. I mean, his offense has moved so much. and it's also just that sort of off-ball movement is a facet of really almost any offense. So, yeah, if you have a guy like Frank Jackson in there, that just, it's not just the three-point shooting he offers. It's also just the, it's like off the score shoot as well. I mean, defenses really need to worry about him and they really need to be moving around to get to him. And you set some off-ball screens, get yourself some better matchups, so on and so forth. So, yeah, that's a change I definitely make.

And this can lead us on to our next question, which is, what do you guys think is the ceiling of the Cunningham Hayes match? A pairing, excuse me, going forward, what do you think is really the best we could reasonably expect out of it? I would say the best we can reasonably expect out of it is probably as far as Cade can take it, if that makes sense. Because I just, yeah, Tommy alluded to it. It's like they really, and when I say they, I mean the pistons, they really want to make this pairing work. And I just couldn't think of two players with less complementary skill sets than the two of them. I mean, the overlaps in their game kind of make each other redundant and where they differ sort of means that the fit isn't really synergetic.

So I'll go more into it. What I really mean is that Cade is just he overlaps with Cillian in a lot of ways and he's just infinitely better in those ways, such as ball handling, playmaking, to an extent, three-point shooting, I guess, kind of, because Killian's improved a little bit as a catch and shoot three-point shooter. What Cade really needs is a back court mate who can create his own offense to a degree and is athletic. I would say that those two qualities are desirable in his back court mate, and Killian has neither of those.

So what's the ceiling of the pairing? It's like, yeah, however far Cunningham can drag it because the fit is just, it's not really a fit, it's just a forced pairing. It's like an arranged marriage. There's no distinctive qualities about the two of them playing together that presents an interesting wrinkle that you throw at the defense when you're on offense. And defensively, yeah, I like their size and length, but that's not really what you're looking for at the highest level. You know, you'd like your pair of guards to be offensively impactful. And right now, not only are they not a good pair, I would say that Killian is somewhat holding Cade back.

So the ceiling is as far as Cade can drag them to. Yeah. This is something, there's a broader discussion here that we've been having probably through the past couple weeks about what Killian Hayes is. And I think we differ a little bit here just because I think Killian has been adjusting his role to play next to Cade. Like people have been talking about, all right, Killian is improving. And I had made a comment about it maybe a week ago. It's like, we are very, very lucky that we have Cade because Killian was not brought in to do this. He was not brought in to be an off ball three-point shooter defend their best opposing guard.

He was brought in to be a pick and roll point guard. And he is just proving completely incapable of that. And as such, Kate has taken the reins of the offense and Killian is allowed to play this complimentary role. Yeah. The problem with it is that Killian, it's such a big adjustment for Killian to make. Because right now, yes, the catch-and-shoe three looks better. And that is valuable, but it's not enough. Not even close.

When you think about, exactly. And when you think about what should Cade Cunningham's back court mate look like, I think it should be a guy like Clay Thompson, a guy who is big, playing really good defense, hiding some of Cade's defensive deficiencies, or not even deficiencies, but give him a break on defense. Like he shouldn't have to guard on ball and then be expected to run the offense at such a high usage.

That's just too much. So play good defense, decent length, and then move around off ball, and be able to put it up quickly. Like, I think Clay Thompson, didn't he drop like 60 points on like 11 dribbles at one point? That's exactly what you need. Because Cade Cunningham is he is capable of running the offense at high usage and just being purely on ball. I think he's capable of that.

What Cade needs is guys who can move around on the perimeter and open things up for Cade, be a target, be an open couple of hands waiting to catch the ball and put it up quickly. That's what Cade needs. Cillian doesn't provide that right now. Exactly. Right now he's just an off. ball corner threat, but he's not moving. So he's not that much of a threat. I think right now he's not an offensive negative, but he's like offensive neutral right

now because defenders probably shouldn't leave him open, but they don't need to work very hard on him because killing is not a good movement in three-point shift. Yeah, I disagree that he's even an offensive zero. I disagree. It's even or even close, you know, it's even. No, he's a minus. Yeah, I think he's a market negative because all he doesn't have court, right? now is you have three things he can do. He can do some playmaking from the perimeter. Sometimes

he'll catch the ball while he's moving and create from the teammates, but he's definitely not doing it for the point of attack, and that's not too common. And even then, he's not a threat to score at the rim. I mean, he still doesn't even try. I think he's been more aggressive trying to go to the rim. I'll say that. But he hasn't been successful. We've said this. No, we've said this. I know, we've had this discussion beyond the scenes, so to speak, that more aggressive. for Killian is like 0 to 5 on a scale of 100. Yeah, exactly. So you can say more aggressive, but like sufficiently aggressive would be like 75.

So he's still so far away from it that it's kind of like, I know I use this metaphor. It's like saying that an infant who would just take his first steps is taking the first step to are becoming a successful long distance runner. It's like there's so far to go. Yeah, that's an extreme example, but it's the truth. It's the truth. Like what Killian was and what he's quote unquote progressed into. still falls in the range of useless,

or actually the range of harmful to the offense. And that works for me because literally what I would say is that what we've seen is baby steps. But you gotta start somewhere. I don't think you have to start somewhere, but here's the thing. Like a player rarely, rarely, rarely, do you see a player come in with these two things

that they're killing this display? Number one, an almost complete lack of ability to contribute in the half court. I mean, he is starting from such a low point. And number two is, handling. I mean, you rarely see an ostensible ball handler coming to the NBA and do this poorly. I mean, sure, you can say, yeah, Killingen got injured last season. He came back.

Blairs get injured. He came back. And when he was finally getting high usage, he came in as a Piz and ostensible pick and roll guard. And running the pick and roll is something that's, you know, you see guys drafted in the lottery as handlers. They can come in and do at least decent job of that. He was unequivocally, unarguably the worst pick and roll guard in the league last season by far. Yeah, one of the worst I've ever seen, honestly. Yeah, he was, even if you can look at it by the eye test, you can look at it statistically. Statistically, it's a joke. His turnover percentage, his ability to score.

You know, it's like, he was absolutely terrible. So, yeah, you can say, you can say baby steps, but these are baby steps from such a small, you know, such a low place. But when it comes to offense, yeah, really those are, and yeah, like the third thing, I was the first two things. The third thing that he offers, catch and shoot three is from the corner. That's it. But that's basically, like, when the offense, the defense gets unhinged enough to, leave him open is when he gets to take their shots, which is rare because the only thing it takes to guard him is just stick a guy on him because you know he's not going to do anything. Exactly.

So here's where I see. I think the fit is not there. I think the team is trying to make the fit work. I don't think it's there. And I agree with you, Tommy, you want a player who's going to provide more options. You know, options really, that's everything in your offense. You want more options. And when it comes to Cade, if you're going to have a guy who's really going to be handling on the ball a lot, you want to surround him with as many options as you can. So guys who can cut explicitly to the basket, guys who can catch whops, guys who can shoot motion threes, just guys who are going to be able to maximize what he brings and what he brings is excellent court vision, very high IQ and the ability to make the right decision and find the right guy. So when it comes to Killian, it's like Killian is still one of the most by far. Not by far. I mean, I would say he is in the low, low, low, low, low tears, like probably right near the bottom in terms of his ability to actually do things on offense amongst guys who are

asked to do so, like Bruce Brown, I think it's still starting, he isn't asked to do much, but the Pistons don't have Kevin Durant and James Hardin. I feel like Bruce Brown was, maybe this is crazy. Disagree with me if you want. I think Bruce Brown was like definitely more effective than Killian on offense, like for sure. He does more. he certainly wasn't good and I mean really really the only tangible skill in a vacuum that Killian has over Bruce is his passing theoretically but I remember Bruce would like go hard to the basket and he would like athletically contort himself and be able to dish the ball out like

Bruce Brown is a bit of an underrated passer and this is a guy and for anybody who's forgotten because it's been a couple years since we've been watching Bruce Brown every night that's a guy whose offense does not belong in the NBA that he's like an athlete playing basketball, not a basketball player who's pretending to be, he not really a skilled basketball player at all, but he's more useful than Killian on offense. And if that doesn't tell you something, I don't know. Yeah, I would say it's not even close. Honestly, I think Bruce is for sure a better offensive player. And Bruce is one of the worst offensive players I've ever seen. Yeah, I don't know if he's in at the NBA level, Bruce doesn't really have a ton to offer. He's in the perfect situation

in Brooklyn, just as a guy who doesn't, who is freed from the need to do much by playing next to two of the greatest scores of his generation. I mean even on the Pistons, though. Like on the Pistons, yeah, he didn't have much to offer there either. Yeah, I agree with that.

But, but yeah, in Brooklyn playing with those guys and under Steve Nash. So, yeah, here's the thing about Killian also, like,

yeah, he's changed roles, but you said it's on me. He's changed roles. He can't handle the ball. I mean, he is his refusal, and this is refusal.

This is a question of willingness. This is not a question of inexperience. It's not like, oh, well, he just hasn't gotten to handle the ball a lot. He won't risk contact. He won't drive into the interior and risk contact. Defenses do not respect him. The rim

protector just stands there. All the bird did, a lot of the time, whether it's Gafford, Mbid did this. It was hilarious. I'm sure Mb got a kick out of it. Mbid basically just, he would just stand at the top of the restricted area when Kalyam was driving and not move. You just stand there because he knew that it was going to be perfectly fine. Killing wasn't going to try to drive in and draw contact. He was just going to take a floater, a low percentage floater. So he's completely incapable as a ball handler right now. defenses don't respect him. From the point of attack, he's a terrible handler. So when it comes down to the fit, yeah, I don't think Killian has much to offer, Kate.

I think, yeah, I don't think he has much to offer him at all. And even on the defensive end, I think Killian's defense is being significantly overrated. Killian's defense reminds me a little bit of Avery Bradley of old, Avery Bradley, who is an excellent ISO defender. But when it came to anything else on defense, it was not, you know, he wasn't good at it, but Killian significantly worse than that. he can play pretty good on ball one-on-one guard defense against the subset of guards. That subset, not including guys who are really fast.

Westbrook torched him. Yeah, Westbrook, who isn't as quick as he wants was torched, killing him. He's still pretty darn quick. And guards like Seth Curry, for example, and there's certainly other guys like this in the NBA, quick guys who can just run around a screen, get the ball and shoot quickly. Killian's toast. He's never going to catch up. And just on a pick and roll, he gets, he gets, he gets,

pushed off of his defender too easily. He's not super switchable. So Killian isn't, I mean, it's easy to look at his guard defense and think that this guy is a good defender. Really, he's good at one thing and not very good at everything else. So even on the defensive end, I don't see the defensive fit. And I know I've monologued a little bit here, but look at Diallo when he was given the chance, for example. He's very sticky, like on highly athletic players. And you want somebody who's that sticky and Killian is not, not at all. He's good at what I've said and he's good at playing the passing lanes. That's it. Yeah. And I, no, I totally agree. Totally agree. And I'm thinking, too, that might be able to segue us into what I think is one of the few positives we actually can

talk about with this team right now. And that's the other half of that dynamic duo, I guess I'll call them. And that's Cade. And we were having this discussion a little bit before we started recording, but we were talking about sort of where does the or when does the passing of the torch occur and is Cade the number one option? And I'm curious to know what the two of you think because I feel like the torch was theoretically passed or symbolically passed from Grant to Cade during that little overtime run. So I'm just wondering what the two of you think of that. Yeah, I don't necessarily.

I don't really think so. I mean, it was nice that he got those opportunities, but let's not forget. I think it bears remembering that number one, the two possessions. at the end of the game were both Jeremy Grant ISO's from the same place. And I believe the first two possessions of overtime were both Jeremy Grant's ISO's from the same place. After that, Kate got his chance. And then he got to inbound the ball in the final play. It was, even if you want to say, okay, it's fine for him to be inbound in the ball.

I don't think it really, I don't think that really was. But those were horrible plays. Those plays were absolutely terribly, terribly put together. But passing at the torch, no, I don't think. think so. Not yet. I don't think there will be a passing of the torch this season, if only because that's not how Dwayne Casey operates. I know, but you're thinking, oh, it's Mike talking about Dwayne Casey again. I'll be completely honest. I don't like talking about Dwayne Casey anymore. It, like, raises my blood pressure. I feel tense the moment I start talking about him at length.

So, but this is not how he operates. Think about Cade. Think about Cade. Think about Cade, right? I have to have to talk about Casey here. Let's try happy thoughts. I have to talk about Dwayne Cays here because this is, for those of you who watched him a lot in Toronto. This is how he operates. Jeremy Grant is playing the Demardo Rosen rule. He gets to go out there and take whatever shots he wants. He is a go-to guy who gets to go out there and just try to create an isolation and just take whatever shots he wants. And when it comes down to calling plays, Casey will even go to him.

Grant, it's like Jeremy, take an ISO and Jeremy got bailed out in that final play when he shot free throws. It was not a foul by Dimwitty. It was obvious at the moment. The NBA called it in the L2M report. And so I don't think. think that torch will be passed because because Casey doesn't coach grant. And that's so I think they'll both be, they'll both have their own roles in the offense, but Jeremy is going to be allowed to operate in it as an end to himself.

So I think they'll be like maybe the maybe they'll have an equal point in it, but I don't think that there will be a sort of a passing of the torch this season. Yeah, I don't know if it's going to be super obvious, but maybe it is closer to what you said, Mike, where it's just going to like, they're going to be like a 1A, 1B type deal. but I think they're coaching him just a little bit. I think I've seen Grant trying to pass more on drives. And out of, he's passed out of those like, you know how he'll do that thing where he looks like he's about to pull up for an ISO.

He'll try to break his man down and then pull it from like 18 feet. It's such a frustrating shot. I've seen him starting to pass out of that a little bit more. I think they are coaching his shot selection just a little bit. But as far as the original question that you asked, Dante, is Cade Cunningham the number one option? I think we're trending that way, that way, pardon me. Yeah, because he's taking the most shots in, I think in the past two games for sure. But I think that's going to become more and more common because he just is that good.

Like, he's creating his own shot on drives. And this is on a not-so-talented roster where there aren't a lot of options. There aren't a lot of defensive covers. He's still garnering so much attention, and he's still pulling this off. And there's a question that we're going to have later. about the rookie of the year race. I'm going to try to make a point during that one. But maybe it's been a, it feels like it's been a while since we've talked about how good

Cade Cunningham is. He is that dude. Like he is, the hardest part of the rebuild is over. We have our, I think we have a legitimate number one option. Absolutely. Who can actually lead us to a championship if we put the right guys around him. That is the hardest thing to find. Yeah, I was, that was going to be actually my next question, which is what is your, I don't know,

Dante, if you've gotten, if you gotten a chance to answer about the, what you think as far as the passing of the torch goes? No, I just thought that the overtime there against the Wizards was really special, you know, and I said literally right before we hit record on this episode we were talking about, or at least I was talking about how I really wish the Pistons won that game for Kate, because that reminded me of, you know, the Blake Griffin of old, like the 50-point game type of Blake Griffin games where he just did everything by himself

and everyone else around him sort of let him down and collapsed. And that's how I felt about that overtime. I don't even remember if anybody else scored during that period. Like maybe there were a few free throws. But I mean, this is what I think Tommy is absolutely right. And that the hardest part of the rebuild is that criteria is certainly fulfilled. And we found our guy is because everybody in that building knew where the ball was going. And Cade scored anyway.

You know, I sound like a bit of a broken record, but it's like he's too big for the guards and he's too skilled for the bigs. Kate is starting to figure out that he's unstoppable when he drives to the basket with purpose. And as he sort of matures into his role, as he starts commanding this respect, he's going to draw fouls on his way to the basket as well. And that's pretty terrifying for the rest of the league. So do I think the torch is passed? I mean, in Dwayne Casey's book, no. I think that he'll always opt for a long contested grant triple size up to over pretty much anything because he's Dwayne Casey. and that's what Dwayne Casey does.

But as far as symbolically, you know, as far as, okay, who is the guy who absolutely can score when we need it most, I think it's Cade. And I think the team knows that. I think the fans know that. I think everybody knows that except Dwayne Casey, honestly. So it's like, does it matter if the torch has been passing in Casey's book? Not really because Kate is such a special player that he's going to do what he does pretty much regardless of the offensive system around him.

Like this is something that he did at Oklahoma State too, when the moment. is the biggest, that's when Kate is at his best. And I think that the fact that we're seeing this now at 20 years old is, man, he's, yeah, no, Tommy, everything you said, I completely agree with you. He is so good. And now a quick word from our sponsor. Another week of the NFL season means another shot to win big at Draft King Sportsbook. New customers can bet just $1 on any NFL game and win $100 in free bets if either team

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One per customer, restrictions apply. See draftkings.com slash sportsbook for details. And if you have a gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler. Yeah, the answer to your question is, no, Kay wasn't the only one who scored on Grant's second ISO in overtime. The first two plays were both grant ISOs from the same area of the floor. And on the second ISO, Stewart tipped in the rebound. He was the only other player scored in overtime. Yeah. Yeah, sounds about right. Yeah. So as I said, moving on the next question, what would you guys say is your favorite thing about Kate Cunningham so far on the season? Oh, man. Tommy,

you want to take this one? Yeah, I'm trying to think about what that would be. I think his attacking the basket skills. He's been doing this thing where he attacks the basket. And even though he's kind, he's not fading away, but he's not going all the way to the basket because the paint is so crowded usually when he drives. The defense collapses so heavily when he takes it inside because he's such a respectable offensive player. But he's using his length and like throwing up these crazy, like long layups with his offhand. And he's putting them in. And it's just, that's how he scored. I think all four of his points are buckets in that overtime game. It is, yeah.

He broke down Daniel Gafford, and then he was making just crazy tough, like, just little flip shots. And that's going to be something that he's going to be able to rely on for a long time because he gets almost all the way to the rim. And it's just, it's phenomenal. Like that overtime, like, what a special moment. Like, he took over that game. And gosh, it's like you said, Dante, I wish we won that game because he deserved that win. Like, he put the team on his back. I mean, prior to the overtime, he actually wasn't having a good game.

But in that moment, he didn't let it get to him. And he just, he took Daniel Gafford on four times and he scored four times. Like, just a phenomenal showing by Cade Cunningham. Like, that is so special. Like, you have a clutch score right there. That might be it. Like, you can rely on him. I like that you said that he didn't let the prior, poor game get to him because that's sort of my answer.

So my favorite aesthetic thing that I get to watch about his game is certainly what you said, Tommy, it's the drives to the basket, the way that he just kind of effortlessly extends over everybody, kind of finger rolls it in. Like, it's unstoppable. It's unstoppable. But my favorite aspect of his game so far, and this has been noted by writers of other teams, by Pistons beat writers, by the greater NBA landscape, these quotes keep popping up, especially from other coaches and executives too about Cade, that he doesn't get sped up.

So when they try to throw doubles, triples at him, Kade doesn't adjust his style of play for anyone. He dictates the pace. He dictates the tempo. And he plays the game according to how he feels like playing the game. And because his basketball IQ is so high, that's more than desirable of an outcome for this offense, is having Kade decide how the offense is run and in what manner it's run.

He can't, he doesn't get flustered. His poise is pretty much unshakable. It doesn't matter if he started his season, you know, one for 20 from three he's going to keep shooting threes doesn't matter if he's having a tough game he's still going to step up in overtime and you just can't change his attitude he doesn't seem to get too high or too low which is to to have that quality at such a young age is I don't want to say it's unheard of but I don't recall the last rookie to show that level of poise certainly not on the pistons and I don't even know if in the general NBA that I've seen something quite like that

And I think that's a really special quality that's going to serve him well as he matures even further. Yeah, I would say, I was just thinking, like, this is just an excuse for me to launch in a minor. I think it's a funny tangent about the Red Wings. You were talking about how he just doesn't let the bad games bother him. Those of you've been watching the Red Wings for a long time. So there was Patrick Wives, the goal of the hit the goalie for the hated avalanche back in the day. And the Red Wings were playing against the avalanche in one of the best series of like the past three decades. It was this very hard fought until game seven, hard fought seven game series, between like the two best teams in the league, like the most brutal rivalry in the league.

Like hockey used to have really brutal rivalries. The Red Wings and the Adelanch for about six or seven years had just this, there's just this hateful rivalry, like legitimately. So they were in game six. The Red Wings were down three to two in the series. And Patrick Glaw makes this great save. on Steve Eiserman and he decides, okay, I'm going to show vote. So he did, you know, what some goal is did or what Patrick Gwa like to do. He's like, okay, I'm just going to hold up the puck.

You know, up high, people will be able to see it in my glove. But he doesn't have the puck. And so Brendan Chanahan puts it in the net. Yeah, yeah. And they called out the Statue of Liberty Goal. It is absolutely hilarious. And yeah, and the revenues would win the game and then they'd score six goals on Patrick Guad the next game and he'd get pulled.

They won seven nothing anyway. But you did Patrick Guad was asked about the goal later and he's like, what goal? And that's the mentality you have to have. You know, as much as you can call Patrick Waugh, whatever, I don't want to use certain colorful language on here, but the guy was an ass, put it that way, an amazing goalie, and definitely an incredible competitor. But you have to be able to just forget. I mean, it's such an important skill, not only in sports in life, you learn from your

mistakes, but as far as did the mistake happen, well, don't even think about it. You've learned from it, but, you know, for all intents of purposes, is by that to be in sports, never happens. You know, I've learned from it, but whatever. might as well have never happened in terms of how I'm going to take it forward. It's not going to let this hurt my confidence. So, Kay, it's very good at that. You know, he's got a great ability to roll with the punches, learn from them,

and not what it affect his confidence. But I would have to, my favorite thing I would have to say along, it's much along the lines of what you said, Dante. I'm really very impressed by his composure. He just, it's not a way that he plays the game at his own pace. Nothing just speeds him up mentally. He doesn't seem to ever get anxious when he's on the pick and roll. his amount of patience is really incredible.

Like he just, he waits until, you know, he waits, he analyzes. And right now he still sometimes makes the wrong decision in terms of making a pass that can be intercepted at the NBA level. He was a little turnover prone at Oklahoma State for other reasons, you know, somewhat for other reasons, just because he had to force so much with Oklahoma State. But at this point, he's just making passes not knowing that they're likely to be intercepted by the much better competition in the NBA. but he's just able to keep the game slow in his head and just constantly just let those gears in his mind turn,

bring that excellent basketball IQ to bear and then make a decision. Yeah. And teams can throw two defenders at him and he's on the pick and roll and he's still going to be able to slow it down and evaluate his options before making a decision. And I'm confident eventually he'll stop making decisions that we have to turnovers. Just yeah, his composure and his IQ and just that's, basketball minds and to have that at the age of 20. Yeah, I agree with you guys. It's the hardest thing to find is to find the guy who's going to be the primary component in your offense. And yeah, I think the pistons have that. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly, if anything, the game actually slows down further for him, the harder the situation is, you know, and that's just transcendent, you know,

that transcendent mental ability that is extreme. I'm not going to sit there and throw generational out there, but it's rare, exceedingly rare to find someone that young combined with that amount of skill combined with that mentality, totally rare, totally unique. So lucky to have them. And that's at least one positive we can take so far, I'd say. Yeah. All right, another question. This is more of a two-parter. Number one, do you think that the team is meant to be this, this, this, bad, as bad as they have been and they've been very, very, very bad. And so number two, I guess it's just it's sort of a hypothetical on this, I guess, is just going to maybe illustrate the differences between us. Would you be willing to eat the pistons being this bad for another season and a

half if it meant getting two more high picks? This is the age old Dante and Tommy debate. Tommy, you go. You take it away. Okay. To start, for the part one, I guess I'll say, I don't think they thought it would be this bad. I didn't think that they were intending on competing. And I guess that's been kind of just the way that we've talked about this over the past week in our group chat. It's kind of been how we interpret what not trying means. But I didn't think that they were going to be this bad. I thought Sadiq Bey was going to take a step forward. He's been pretty bad in his new role. I thought I was going to be. I think you're understanding it. He's been maybe the worst start on the league. Yeah. Yeah. It's, well, we've already talked about it.

Yeah, Sique Bay, that situation. And then Isaiah Stewart, he's been quietly, well, just quiet. He hasn't done much on offense. And then defensively, I think he's struggled. He's following a lot. And this whole, this past few weeks has really just solidified in my mind that he would be great as a backup against smaller backup bigs and that he could be an option there where he would actually get to do his little isolation, his jump hooks.

And I think he can score effectively in the post. and I think that he'd be a lot better there. But as far as this question of should we be bad for another year and a half, and when I think about it, I'm thinking primarily from the draft because I love the draft and I love that we're in talent acquisition mode right now. I don't love the losing, obviously. Nobody wants their team to lose, but what you want to do is make your team better. And I think for the Pistons in most small markets,

the best way to do that is do it through the draft. Right now, 2022, I'm not super excited. about this draft. There's a few names in it that I would be happy to pick up. A 2023, I think, is going to be a very good draft. There's three names that I'm looking at already. It's Monty Bates, Victor Wenbatnyama, and Scoot Henderson. And I think that's a good draft to have a top or seven pick-in. I mean, I'm projecting that out early without even knowing most of the prospects in the top of that draft, but it's already shaping up to be a good one. And I just don't want us to fall into the trap of trying to be competitive too early or too soon before we really have the

talent to effectively maximize Cade because I don't think we're going to find it in free agency. I think we're going to follow the Phoenix model of like, all right, we have talent and now it's time to overpay some older player who's going to take us to the next level. I don't think we're going to acquire a star in free agency. So we need to acquire our talent through the draft. And I think the best way to do that would be to go through with two more years of top picks and whatever pain is associated with that. Yeah, I think it goes without saying that the best way for a small market team like

the Pistons to acquire this high-end talent is the draft. I mean, I don't think you could find any semi-competent basketball fan and tell you that that's not the case because that absolutely is the case. My issue with this prolonged multi-year intentional tank job is actually something that that Mike has brought up before. So I'll just reiterate it in that. If we're this bad again in the Imani Bates draft class year, something has gone, not just something, a multitude of things have gone terribly wrong either. Kate has not taken the steps forward that we expect out of him.

You know, Sadiq and Stewart have continued to not blossom. Dwayne Casey is continuing to make coaching mistakes and Weaver is continuing to make strange roster construction decisions. And I just think that, you know, this is something that Mike has said. it's hard to be this bad for a prolonged period of time. And it's either you're doing it intentionally or a multitude of things have gone severely wrong. And I would push back hard against doing it intentionally. I think that as much as having top picks is helpful, I think that a winning culture is also

helpful. You know, I think that like we'd already said, the number one criteria for building a championship contender, you know, finding the guy, especially finding him as young as we found Cade. That's complete. right now we need to surround him with talent and I think we need to learn how to win as a team

and right now going in and just getting absolutely pumped night in and night out that's not fun for anybody and I also don't think it's healthy for the players I don't think it fosters player development at all if anything I think you can lead to some floundering I think it can lead to regression

so I'm not saying that we can't acquire top end talent from bottoming out and picking at the top of the draft that's absolutely the case I just wonder if Cade combined with hopeful steps forward from our other young players combined with another top pick this year because we're all but guaranteed to get a top three, four pick this year at the bare minimum. I wonder why that can't be enough to then start pushing for some wins, not necessarily spending all our cap space and trading all our picks, but trying to put a competent product out on the floor and seeing where these players can take us rather than in time. intentionally being bad. I don't see the benefit there. And I wonder if maybe as early as next year, we can start to have fun watching this team again. That's where I stand. So what I'll say,

I mean, Tommy and I don't have more to say. I'll just answer the question briefly from my side. No, I didn't. I don't think, geez, I can barely even remember the question. What I said? I've looked at the beginning. The beginning of the question, do you think the team was meant to be this bad? Okay. No. No, I don't think the team was meant to be this bad. If anything, I'll ostensibly Weaver tried to improve the team a little bit by adding more shooting. We know Kelly Olinix out, but I think the idea was for the team to be a little bit more capable than it was last season. Last season, it was almost kind of like one and a half teams because a lot of players

were gone over the course of the season. But I think the idea of this team was that, yeah, they're probably not going to win many games. And that's a good thing because you don't want to be stuck in the middle of the lottery, or goodness forbid the low lottery. and also Weaver could not have made this a good team, even if he'd really been of a mind to, not realistically, just because there wasn't the cap space, for example. It just would have taken a lot, and it would have been a fool's errand

because it wouldn't have very, very unlikely to lead to anything good at all. But I think that this team was that basically they were going to want the team to go out and to make a fight of it every night. And in the events, just a great deal has gone wrong. The team has been, for the most part, throughout the season, though it's gotten better, terrible at shooting. like legitimately even in an NBA in which three point percentage is down. I think it's only down like, I don't know, somewhere between one and two percent,

I believe, though it's been on the upswing for some time. The new ball wasn't helpful, you know, all around. The new ball just wasn't helpful. And I think that's just basically, you know, but by all appearances, that's been the primary culprit because three point percentage is back on the rise. But the team has just been terrible even in that context from shooting. You had two all rookie sophomores. This is Sadiq Bay, who is an effective 3-Indie player last season,

and Isaiah Stewart, who was a backup center, but he was good. Bay has progressed, and we talked about this in the last episode, the Y, but Bay has regressed from a capable 3-Ind starter to arguably the worst starter in the league, a gigantic minus for the team. Isaiah Stewart and moving to starting center, while he's just progressed in his own way and he hardly does anything, though that's partly because of the way in which he's being used

is an undersized traditional center who can't catch lobs and can't run in the pick and rule, which is a pretty useless role for anybody to play. And then you have a guy who wasn't a great coach in the first place, who possibly because the changeover in assistance has been even worse. And then Kelly Olinick, who would probably be somewhat important of this team is injured, though the team aside from that is that good injury look, aside from catering the season. So I know I said it to answer briefly. A great deal has gone wrong for the business to be this bad.

I don't think they were ever meant to be this bad. I don't think they were meant to be good. I don't think they're ever meant to be this bad. Now, would I put up with another season of this being this bad? I don't think it would be really helpful at the end. It's like, okay, maybe you have that pick. But I also think it's impossible. They would have to really try to make the team this bad for another season.

And you would need to have a lot go wrong in terms of player developments. You would need to possibly have a lot go wrong in terms of injury. If you're adding another top player in the draft and still being bad, I think that it's just going to develop organically. but I don't think they'll spend next off season, excuse me. I don't think they'll spend in the 2022 off season. Yeah, why don't we just move on to the user submitted questions then? Don't you have a thought you had more to say on the subject?

I know you could talk about this subject for probably about three hours. That's true. That's true. I know, this is the big thing, Tommy. Like, I remember, like, a couple years ago when, this is funny to think back to. Was this a couple years ago? This is about a year and a half ago. Excuse me.

When the Pistons had finally pivoted. The Blake Griffin used? Oh, no, no. When the Pistons had finally pivoted to a rebuild and they were just, they, they, how many games did they lose before the pandemic end of the season? I don't remember. They lost a lot of games. We were both very satisfied with this.

And the question was, you know, is this going to be like a two-year tank or three-year tank? And I was kind of like in a two-year and Tommy was on a three-year or even a four-year. I don't remember. But we've been talking about this for a while. Also, I think it's funny to look back and see how much we were talking about. talking about, you know, what is Christian Wood's future with this? I thought it was just...

I think Christian Wood would be pretty useful right now. Oh, yeah, but you never get the number one overall pick with Christian Wood and Jeremy Grant both on the team. I mean, with all the close games, you replaced Mason Plumlee with Christian Wood. Yeah, no chance. I think he is one of the names in 2023. The names in 2023? Yeah, I don't know.

I believe so. It's possible. I still am not sold on his attitude, however. Yeah. The only thing I was going to say in response to Dante is, uh, even if we, you know, finishes the worst team this year. We are at best guaranteed a top five pick, and by far the likeliest outcome is we pick fifth.

We were pretty blessed to get K-Aid number one this year, but I still think that it's just worth it to maybe not bottom out, but like try to lose or just don't feel the most competitive roster. Don't try to go all in on being competitive too soon, unless you're like getting a slam dunk player in the offseason of 2022. like if you have a chance to get like a miles bridges i wouldn't turn that down just so you can tank out more a year you know because it's a point that you made even if you get a top pick you're not guaranteed anything definitely not some some top five rookies they'll still struggle like 50% of

all stars are taken with top five picks but there's that other 50% and uh well this is the pistons we don't have to talk about blowing top picks they would never do that no of course not definitely not in one of the greatest drafts of all time no that no absolutely not i don't even know what you're talking about Yeah, but that's all. I think there is, I think there's just benefit to it. And my only concern is I don't want us to try to compete too soon out of impatience. And I don't think that's going to be the case. Like I think even after these tough losses, I think most fans kind of come down a couple days later. It's just like, yeah, this is where we are and there's the future to look forward to. Yeah, there's the question of Tom Gores as well, though, as much as he has allowed this rebuild, a guy who was basically willing to hamstring his team unknowingly for about seven years. years for the sake of winning culture. I don't know, maybe we'll he put up at this for another year. Who knows? I don't know. That's just a more complex question. Now, I did have one last question

that we're not going to get to because we're about to run at a time. That was going to be basically, we're maybe about three weeks, hopefully, from Kelly Olinick returning. And what kind of boosted do you think we think he'll give the team? But we can get to that in the next episode. So, all right, a couple of users submitted questions. So number one is when coaching has been the problem. under so many coaches in the row. It's, you know, the four coaches before Van Gundy was Curry Coister, Lawrence Frank, and Mo Cheeks. Actually, I think there was another one lawyer. I don't know.

I honestly wasn't watching the piss as much back then. And then Van Gundy and Casey, do you think that maybe coaching isn't actually the problem? My answer, it's possible for you to get a bunch of bad coaches in the row. It's possible also for the roster to be mismanaged and for the coaching to be bad. It's possible for the guy who is mismanaging the roster and coaching. to be the same person. That was Van Gondi for four years. He sucked up running a roster, and he was a terrible coach.

So I think that absolutely, number one, there's this, I think there's this, this tempting way of just trying to encapsulate things in a way that eliminates all ambiguity. Like, oh, is coaching the problem? It's like, it's possible for there to be multiple problems and for coaching to be one of them. And I think coaching is a major problem. There are other reasons the team is losing also, but coaching is the only controllable factor in those. Yeah. Yeah. that's perfectly, I don't even have anything to add.

That's completely the case. It's very easy to want to, you know, it's natural to want to put things in a box and look at things in a black and white fashion and say, okay, X is the problem or why is the problem? And it's like, well, for a team to be this bad, there have to be a variety of problems. And I think the biggest one right now is coaching. But that's just one factor in a multi-factor problem. Just to bring it up, I mean, you're saying this in the sense of the reason that the

Pistons are getting stumped right now, not that they're not winning. No, I listen, I, and this is, this is some, I don't know if I've made this clear over my kind like pouty last couple of episodes, but it's like, if the team is losing because they're just straight up not good enough, that's, I mean, sure, it's annoying to watch your team lose, but like, what are you going to do? You have to be realistic as a fan. You have to accept that. But if the team is losing and a big contributing factor to these losses is the coaching,

that's like you said, Mike, that's a controllable factor. and that's unacceptable and that's not something that I'm willing to just sit there and support. So even though, you know, this is certainly not a team that's capable of doing anything, you know, in the general sense of the NBA season that is obviously not talented enough to rattle off a ton of wins here, they're better than what they've shown. And that is really only attributable, in my opinion, to some key injuries and coaching. So that's where I would stand on that. Yeah.

The only thing I would have to add to that is that what we're doing right. now and what we did for the past 13 years prior to this, I think they're completely different. They're two different situations. Right now, we're bad because we tried to be bad. We tore down, we're rebuilding. This is what that's supposed to look like. Before that, they were trying to be competitive and they were just bad. They were spending their money that they had.

They blew all their cap space on useless contracts. Like they were just trying to be, air quotes, competitive and it didn't work. But right now, we are rebuilding with purpose. So in my mind, it's a completely different situation. Casey, no, not a good, he's not a good coach and he's a holdover from a time when we were trying to be competitive. I fully believe Casey was brought in because he was the coach of the year. And they were like, yep, that's our guy. That's the guy that's going to make Andre Drummond and Blake Riffon work.

So in my mind, in my mind, this is a completely different situation. But we'll be, I think we're on the right track right now. Well, that's right track or wrong track. I mean, it's a separate issue in the coaching. but that's something we have discussed and can discuss more in the future and will, I'm sure. So our other question, I seem to have lost it, revolves around, oh yeah, who would we consider our top five rookies right now? And so I'd have to say, I mean, you have the obvious trio, which is Barnes, Cade, and Mowgli. And then you have Duarte, I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name right.

the dude uh Chris uh Chris uh, Duarte yeah who plays for the Pacers uh he started very strong I haven't checked in on him lately to see if he's doing that well. Yeah. And then Franz Wagner is the fifth one. Yeah. Franz Wagner was for me, I was like, why are these guys picking him number seven? And I don't think he's going to be a, uh, like a really, I think he'll be a high level

role player, which is for number, you know, who knows, maybe like your fourth best starter on a really good team. And I think that's, that's not bad at number seven. Or was he number seven? I think he was number seven. He was number eight. He's number eight. Okay, pardon me.

And also, I got to say, like, it was very, very nice of them to go out and get his brother. I mean, what an organization to go out and get fit to go out and get, and Mo Wagner as well. It's like way to make him feel at home. Such a wholesome thing to do. Yeah. Yeah, that'll make his transition a little easier. Definitely. I honestly haven't paid too much attention to the other rookies.

I'm not going to speak on them. The only thing I really have to say about the rookie of the year race, Evan Mobley's currently number one. And he is playing very well. His defense is translated so well, but he is in such a good situation. And this isn't really, like, this isn't me trying to discredit him or hate on him. It's just like, I think it's helpful to provide that context. Like Cade, he is, he is fun, like we just said, he's functionally the number one option on a very bad team. He went out and he scored eight straight in O.T. People know what Cade Cunningham is and he still plays super well against them anyway. Evan Mobley, he is benefiting significantly from playing the four next to Jared

Allen, who covers up his rim protection issues, and then he's playing next to Darius Garland. I think something like 70 plus percent of his offense is created for him, whereas Cade is creating everything that comes his way. It's two different situations. If Evan Mobley was on the Pistons, he would not be number one in rookie of the year rankings right now. He would be struggling because the Pistons just have so many issues. Like right now, our primary need is a big. But prior to this, it was ball handling. And now that we have it, that's great. But just, I think eventually Cade Cunningham will take the number one spot. I think it's going to take like a string of wins. Maybe when Kelly O'Linnock comes back, I think we're just, just by nature of

like that boost to the offense and people having to game plan us and adjust to what we are at that moment. I think it's just going to take a few wins for him to get his respect. But Cade Cunningham, like I wouldn't trade Cade Cunningham for any of the rookies right now. I think Cade Cunningham is the best rookie and he is deserving of the number one overall pick yeah i could have i could have sworn that during our draft previews one of us had mowgli as number two who who was that who said that who was high on mowbly was it me i think that was me i'm a noted evan mowgli lover no i mean look i i yeah i it was not me i did not believe in evan mowgli yeah i had a 3a and it wasn't because I didn't think he was going to be good.

It was because I didn't think he was what the persons needed. Yeah, no, I, if I'm remembering, right, I'm pretty sure I had. I think I had Mowbly neck and neck with Green thinking that I thought Mowgli's game would translate a little better. And it's just because I don't think you can teach that skill and that size. Like those are things that you pair those two facets of his game together and you've got a really special player. And no doubt, Tommy, he's in a good situation in Cleveland.

It's certainly a better situation than he would be in in Detroit. that goes without saying. But I disagree that he would be struggling here. I think he's such a special player that he'd be good anywhere. And what I trade Cade for him, definitely not. You know, absolutely not. I even think, too, if Cade continues to shoot the three ball well and attack the basket with more consistency,

maybe draw some more fouls, he's going to get up to 18, 19, potentially 20 points per game this season. And I think the rookie of the year race is a glorified scoring contest. You know, I don't know how much record is really going to affect it. So I think it's a two-man race right now, between Cade and Mowgli. I think Cade's going to easily overtake Barnes,

and it's going to be Cade and Mowgli in the end there. But I think the two of them are spectacular players. You know, I'm always going to root for Mowgli. Right. Let me contextualize that because I do not want to come off as like trying to discredit Mowgli. But let me just say this. Mowgli has the other half of what he needs. Like he needs a good guard like Darius Garland

that's going to help create a lot of offense from him. Cade Cunningham does not have his other half. He does not have a pick and roll center to play next to it. You can tell that Cade won. to throw lobs. He needs a guy who he can target on the role. He just doesn't have it right now. I think that's one of the big differences. That's all. Evan Mobley, great player. His defense is outstanding. He's so much fun to watch. But I'm very happy with our pick. I wouldn't change it. Yeah, one of my primary misgivings about Mobley and why did rank him below Green and K'd.

Oh, number one was injury. I'm not entirely confident given his just given his physical profile that he's going to be able to remain healthy in the long term, particularly if he ever starts playing center and really has to bang in the paint. But the other one was just the pistons really need that guy who can lead the offense. I don't think Mowgli's going to be a guy who leads the offense. That was, that was, and that was a big deal for me. That's why I put green over him. All right, folks. So that's going to be it for this episode. Thank you as ever for listening. We'll catch you next time.