Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 76: Nobody Hands These Pistons a 15th Straight Loss

Episode Date: December 21, 2021

This episode discusses the team's streak-breaking win against the Heat, the resurgence of Saddiq Bey, and the manner in which the team has functioned differently without the recently-injured Jerami Grant, and gets started on hypothetical Grant trade scenarios.

Welcome, everybody, to Drive into the Basket, part of the Basketball Podcast Network. I am Mike, joined as always, by Dante and Tommy. This time, right after a win, shockingly, a day on which not only to the Pistons win, but the Lions won. Not actually probably very interesting to people are listening to a Pistons podcast, but nonetheless, it's a big day for you, Dante in particular, I know. Oh, my God. I saw Spider-Man last night, woke up, the Lions dominated the Cardinals, and then the Pistons snap their, you know, historic losing streak. So overall, just a, I was smiling all weekend.

Like literally all weekend. Yeah, that's a solid 24 hours, man. Yeah, yeah, crazy. Just absolutely crazy. So I am, I don't know about you guys. I'm excited to kind of just jump into it. Yeah, fair enough. So, yeah, we're recording this about, I don't know,

maybe like a little bit less than two hours after the just incredible, you know, paradigm altering win against the Miami Heat who totally had all their best players. Yeah. But this is just the start of a new era. Realistically, I mean, we know how it was that the heat were missing. Their two best players. And then they lost Tucker over the course of the game. The Pistons, in all fairness, playing for the third time in four nights.

But nonetheless, it was good to get a win. It was just good to get a win, period, no matter what it was. Yeah. No, I just thought, I don't know if, actually, I do know. I know that the two of you were, when I brought this up, before we started recording, you were a little bit shocked. And I think longtime listeners, they're, they're, their jaws are probably going to be on the floor when I say this, but I thought Dwayne Casey

coached a hell of a game today. Listen, you're not going to find a bigger Dwayne Casey critic than me. Like I know we as a show are very critical of him, but I'll just speak for myself personally. I am so critical of Dwayne Casey all the time. And I think it's warranted. But today, I think he was a major factor in the win. And I want to be able to break this down as succinctly as I can. And I did not tell the guys before we started.

why I think this. So I'm curious to know what their response to it is. But basically the first half was just, you know, run after run after run. The teams were trading it back and forth. And the pistons to their credit, they were making their shots. They kept it competitive when Miami would go on a run. They responded with a run of their own. And they managed to go into the third quarter in a close game.

And during that third quarter, I believe just a few minutes into it, Miami shifted to three two zone. And I remember I was watching the game with my dad. I leaned over to my dad. I'm like, we are not going to score probably for another six minutes here because Dwayne Casey's arch nemesis is the zone defense. And to his credit, I thought from that point forward, he became very, very cerebral, which is not something that I'm used to seeing out of Dwayne Casey. So I want to break that down really quick. So basically, Cade was, I don't want to say uninvolved, but he only

took three, four shots. And I was frustrated at this as the game was going on. But I sort of realized, look like reflecting back on it he was getting doubled sometimes triple teamed every single time he touched the ball and and spolster is a great coach you know he identified what our strength was and he worked to stop it whenever kate had the ball and so dwayne casey sort of went away from him but when the zone came into play how do you beat a zone defense well there's a couple ways you know ball fakes you need to shift the zone and then when the zone is shifted you need to puncture the zone. And the best player on the roster who does that. And in my opinion is Kate Cunningham. He does a great job. So he went from completely uninvolved in the offense to a big part of the

offense as soon as that shift happened. And that can only be attributed to Casey. We were moving the ball around great, making really crisp, clean passes, moving the ball well, generating good looks and knocking them down. And I think that that ability to not only weather the shift to his own defense, but Excel when Miami went to his own defense was something that we don't see at all. And that's one coach being outcoached by our coach. That's Dwayne Casey outcoaching Eric Spolstra. My basic premise essentially was, I understand that the heat were severely under man, but hey, the pistons are under man, too.

And I just thought that Casey got the better of Spolstra today. Yeah, I don't agree that Casey coached particularly well. I know that I'm a longtime critic of Casey. I'm willing to give credit where credit is due when credit is due. I was willing to do that for Stan Van Gundy, too. Unfortunately, there was in the last couple of years not really much credit to give him, but I digress. In any case, so I think that I just don't think that Casey didn't anything special.

I thought the entire game was more or less a showcase, as I expected, it would be of how just excellent coach Eric Spalster is and how Dwayne Casey is almost kind of pee-wee back in Paris. I'd say Dwayne Casey is an above average NBA coach, whereas Spolster is one of the best. So, yeah, I mean, the switch to the zone. I think that the heat made it just easier on Casey by the fact that they were constantly doubling K, no matter what when he had the ball. I mean, when they were in a zone or not, and K to his credit, I mean, he was a little

bit discombobulated by it. He took very few shots throughout the course of the game. But as he does, he was nonetheless able to have a very positive impact. So I think the fact that when he got the ball, he was still being doubled really kind of, it really decreased the zone. of the zone, so to speak, and nobody runs a defensive zone better than Eric Spolstra. Like, nobody in the NBA runs a better zone than him. So it became kind of like sort of a compromise zone.

And that made it easier to deal with. And as long as you have guys moving off the ball, like Commodore Diallo comes to mind, you know, he would be off the ball. I mean, the zone was disrupted by the fact that Cabe was getting, I was having two guys on him and Cabe would find him. Cabe would find the open man. So I think just the fact that he did better against the zone than he usually does, which is to say the Pissons didn't. fall completely flat on their faces. I don't think necessarily means that Casey did a better job. And I think just down the stretch, and a win is a win. I was happy for the win. But down the stretch, it was the pistons made their shots and the heat didn't. And heat didn't really have much

talent. They really needed Duncan Robinson to shoot well. And he had a bad night and uncharacteristically bad night. And they just didn't really have the firepower. So yeah, I didn't really see anything from it, Casey. I mean, if anything, there was just this one sequence in which the Pistons ran an out-of-time-out play, quote-unquote, which was basically just not a play at all. And then Eric Spilstra very shortly afterward came back without a timeout play. It was perfect. That for me just kind of really typified the coaching night. Yeah, I would have to agree.

I don't think that it was a matter of getting out-coached. I think it was really just, like you said, Mike, the heat were missing most of their starting lineup. They were also missing their six-man and hero. And yeah, we're missing Jeremy Grant and Kelly Olinic. But tonight I think we just won because everyone. were just so many weird lineups out there from us tonight. I mean, weird in a good way and a bad way. Like at one point, we were running a lineup with Hamid Diallo, Saban Lee, and Isaiah Stewart, and then alongside them was Kate Cunningham and Sadiq Bay. That doesn't fly against any other roster,

but on a team where, like, their starting center is a guy that we cut, and our backup center right now is Luca Garza. It works out that way, and then they shot it really poorly. I think we had probably what upwards of 50, 60 points in the paint tonight. They just could not defend us. We were rebounding the ball far better than they could. We were more used to team rebounding. I think it was really more stuff like that. We were just playing chaotic.

And I think the fact that they had so many guys out and we were starting, well, not starting, but playing just a mess of lineups that we really haven't played before was probably just a lot harder for them to game plan. I think that happens a lot, like especially when you see injuries happen. I actually think I read a quote about this earlier. I think I want to say from Austin Rivers, he was talking about the magic game. They were saying, like, yeah, we don't have a scouting report on any of these guys. We don't know who we're playing against.

And it was just a weird game for them. I think that's a factor as well. It was just a strange one. Whatever the case, I mean, the heat were missing upwards of 60 points between Ottobio, and Harrow. So, like I said, a win's a win. but I just, I mean, it's worth looking at the fact that the Pissons scored 100 points and won this game. Yeah, but it's also worth looking at too, though.

You have to consider, it's like, okay, I totally agree with you guys. Cade was discombobulated by the defense that was being thrown out, and it was extremely aggressive. So it's like, okay, Cade is discombobulated. Let's bring in some more ball handlers. Let's go away from Cade. Shift to the 3-2 zone. Now we go back to Cade because Cade's skill set is the one that is best able to bring. down his own. I didn't see it. See, I don't know. I saw it a bit differently. You fake the

skip pass, you do a job step, a couple crossovers. There are ways to shift a zone defense that Cade can employ. He can employ these tactics in a way that other players can't. So I thought the shifting from who the focal point of the offense was based on what the defense was doing was a very clear marker that there was some schematics going on. I'm not saying Casey should be up for his second coach of the year award. I get you. But to me, I just think it's something worth monitoring.

Okay, that's fair. I mean, I, you know, I didn't see it. Maybe it happens. I just didn't see it that way. Either way, I think it was important that they got the win.

I'm happy with the win. Oh, I agree. I'm not going to downsell it for the simple fact that the Pist, I feel like the Pistons needed a win no matter how it happens. If they had gotten a win against the roster, which the Nets are fielding right now, which is completely wiped up.

We'll talk about health and, safety protocols a little bit later. If the Pistons had gotten a win against them, I would have been relieved. I don't care. I mean, the heat could have been missing all their starters and have been like, okay, they got a win. Cool. That's all that matters.

I'm happy with that. Totally. Yeah, totally agree with that. They needed this bad because I just can't imagine and I don't think you guys would imagine either that a franchise record and consecutive losses was the intended design of what was going on here. So it's really nice to avoid that. No, definitely not.

Yeah. I do think that this is. is going to be the start of a pretty ugly trend where, especially now that Jeremy Grant is out, teams are going to just start throwing everything they've got at Cade and making other guys beat them. You held Cade to four field goals tonight. He looked uncomfortable out there, which isn't a knock against him. It was a rewind of his days at Oklahoma State, except it's the Miami heat. Yeah. Yeah. He had a real rough time getting his shot off and getting anything rolling, really. Well, I think that's going to be a theme. And then he was in.

fall trouble, of course. Yeah, I mean, you have a couple of things you can look at in the starting lineup, for example, and two of them, of course, Frank Jackson is one of those. Now, Frank Jackson has really, really come alive over the last month or so. He's definitely been a spark plug off the bench. He's a guy who can get his three-in motion, who can attack the basket well off the ball. Dissons don't really have a lot of either of those. The only guy who really qualifies is able to attack the basket well off the ball as Hamadu. But whatever the case, I'd say if you want to make things easier on Cade in situations like that, you pull Killian on the starting lineup, you put Frank Jackson in there.

I don't think Casey will do that because because, because Frank is just a huge part of his bench. But the fact that the pistons have who they have in the starting lineup, it really doesn't make things easy on him at all because he has what in the way of good all-fowlmovers in the starting lineup right now. Diallo can do it. He's not really used in that capacity as much as he should be. You have zero motion three point shooters. You only have like two shooters next to Kate at all.

And because I really don't, well, that's if you count killing as a shooter. And I don't. Not really. So, yeah, I mean, there are ways you can make things easier on him. But I just want to talk about Frank Jackson a little bit. It's just not only that he's been playing well, but just an importance of a player like that, a player who is going to, you want to have as many ways to unhange his defense as you possibly can, just period. And guys who can move explosively off the ball and shoot around screens, the defense knows that they can do that.

They have to account for them. That's an additional thing for them that they have to account for. It's not just not just an additional option versus you can say like Killian Hayes, who is not an off ball threat really at all. Teams just don't care. So, yeah, Frank, Frank has been good, but it's also, it's also just a critique in the starting lineup that they're so little there for Cade to work with as far as dynamism goes. Yeah, while we're on that subject, I guess this kind of ties into another thing that we wanted to talk about. Have you noticed, well, I'll say this first, we were kind of discussing privately, like, why is Killian Hayes starting alongside Cade? And it's something that Dante had predicted earlier on in the year, actually before the season.

It was that they really want those two to work. And just a couple games ago, they've kind of made this shift where it used to be that they would play together and they would get pulled together because it was like they were really trying to force that, see what that chemistry is. And just a couple of games ago, they started pulling Cade out early. And now they're kind of staggering their minutes a bit. I think we're going to see an effective change maybe fairly soon. And I hope that it's Frank Jackson in the starting lineup in place for Killian. And I hope that they're looking to see if Killian wants to run things off the bench.

I don't think he'd do very well there. But I would rather have Frank Jackson starting next to Cade. Just give Cade more options because Killian. I know in the last episode or two episodes ago, I said that Killian's a net zero right now, parked in the corner because, you know, you still want to assign somebody to him, but I think that's,

I think it was wrong there. I think he's actually a negative because he's, he's really just invisible out there right now. And the guy like Frank Jackson, who's working hard, moving hard off ball, and shooting it a lot better, frankly, he's just more valuable. I think Frank is up to,

I had this a second ago. Frank Jackson's up to 33% on 3%. on threes for the season. In the past month, yeah. Yeah, he's coming alive. Yeah, that shift that you're talking about, Tommy, not only is it absolutely 100% accurate, that is in fact what's happening.

I think it's reflective of what's happening with Cade. And I know tonight he only had four points, so let's dismiss tonight's performance, even though he had 11 assists. I still thought he was decent enough. But Cade is becoming, at least in my opinion, I think he's become like a star player or on his way to be,

a star player a lot sooner than many people predicted that he would be. You know, us included, I think we thought he would take quite a bit more time to get going, but he just is really, really something else. And I think now when you realize the caliber of player that you have on your hands, right, especially in the absence of Jeremy Grants where now Kate is absolutely 100% the guy, you need to start shifting some things to make sure that he is put in the best position to succeed. So you're absolutely right, Tommy.

I did predict that Killian and Cade would be a thing that the organization would push nonstop because they really want it to work. But we've got plenty of a sample size now where we can kind of tell, okay, Kate is in a completely different, he's a different animal than Killian is. And him and Killian sharing the floor is not really synergetic at all. They don't complement each other's skill set particularly well. And that's because Killian's only real useful traits are on display when he's on the ball. And of course, you don't really want Cade playing off the ball.

You want him playing on the ball because that's where his skill set shines. So because it's apparent now, the caliber of player that Cade is and the caliber of player that he can become, it's time to stop playing games. Really, it is. And if that means Frank Jackson in the starting lineup in place of Cillian Hayes, if that means Hamadu Dialo or some combination of some other. Diala is already there. Yeah, or Diala is already there. But I mean, even at full strength, quote unquote, right? It's just not working with Killian.

He's just not getting it done. And he's holding Cade back. And right now, with as well as Cade is playing, you want to let him blossom. You don't want to stifle him. And if that means benching Cillian, that means benching Cillian. Yeah, I would say the only reason really that Cillian is in the starting lineup right now, it has nothing to do with his aptitude or with his fit with Cade. It has to do with, like you said, Dante, and this has come out.

One of the beatwriters said it. Basically, the Pistons are committed to try to make that pairing work. It has nothing to do as far as I can tell. at least in my opinion, it has nothing to do with anything beyond that. We drafted Killian seventh overall last year. And then we drafted Cade and we want to try to make them work together. And the fact is that Killian has been terrible. He has been absolutely terrible.

The fact that he is starting should not be conflated with the notion, the idea that he deserves it, even on this team, that he is a good fit with Cade at all. He has been absolutely and utterly horrible on offense. One of the worst starters in the league without a doubt. And when we said this about Sadiq that he was one of the worst starters in the league, that was just because his efficiency was absolutely terrible and he was dragging the team down in the way that he played.

And he was also completely discombobulated on defense, whatever. With Killian, I said he offers hardly anything at all. Like you said, Dante, he does, you know, ideally, or just based on what his skill set is, because Killian is unlikely to ever be a good off ball player. Maybe he'll be a good catch-and-shoot, three-point shooter eventually. But he's not going to move well off the ball. Like, he's a sole off-ball mover. he's not going to be cut into the basket.

He's not going to be catching lobs. He's unlikely, I'd say, to be shooting motion threes. The guy is a very, very limited off ball repertoire. And I think that if he improves, his improvement is going to be on the ball. And it is not worth taking the ball out of Cade's hands to give it to Killian. No. And Killian, just right now on offense does nothing. I mean, he can shoot open corner three is at a below average percentage.

And that is it. So your opportunity cost there is of having a guy who can, it's not just that Killian is bad at everything. and he's a disaster as a ball handler right now. He still won't drive in the net. He's still horribly inefficient from inside the arc. His assists rarely come off the drive. So can't really break down defenses. He's almost useless.

That makes him a big negative. And on defense, he is useful in some situations and then very bad in others. Like when he has to chase quick shooters around screens, when he has to defend explosive guards, he gets roasted. He got annihilated by Eric Gordon. What is it, like 35-year-old? Eric Gordon, who's not very fast. Killing got burned by him.

I counted six different times in the first half against the rockets. Yeah. Brutal showing on defense there. Yeah. So Killian is just, is genuinely just a really bad NBA player right now. I'm not advocating that the team give up on him. Taking him out of the starting lineup is not giving up on him. I don't think it's doing him any good.

I don't think it's doing K'd any good. I don't think it's doing anybody any good. So, you know, to have him run things from the bench, maybe things go better for him. I'm really tired of seeing him in the starting lineup because it seems like basically they're just smushing the two players together and saying, well, we hope something might come of it. But the long-term upside, I think, is very minimal. And, yeah, if teams do see tonight and say, okay, maybe we can do that with Cade,

then he's going to need more help in the starting lineup. And that's just not Killian. No, no. And if you double team Cade, the guy that he's passing to, you know, his back court mate has got to be able to make the defense pay. and Killian cannot make the defense pay. Frank Jackson can make them pay. Hamadu Diallo, to an extent, can make them pay.

Anybody who can do something one-on-one, break down their man, hit an open three, drive to the net, all of that would be better than what Killian offers right now. All of it. Unfortunately, that's just not the case. Yeah, Killian, I know I'm just repeating myself. He just offers so, so little on offense, like to a destructive degree.

So yeah, that's an issue. But I mean, if we don't have anything else who want to say about killing, another guy in the starting lineup who, you know, has really picked up the slack and really just improved since Jeremy Grant left due to injury, not left, but ever since he had us, you know, you left the lineup, whatever, you all know what I mean, is Sadiq Bay, who's really come alive and has really been playing differently. And I think that's definitely definitely a topic for discussion. and so I'm curious how you guys,

the shift you guys have seen in the way in which he's playing. And Tommy, you haven't talked in a while. Why don't you tell us? Honestly, I was going to let Dante go first because he's the Sadiq Bega. But I would honestly just have to say, I haven't noticed a huge difference in his play style. Maybe that he's cut out some of the rougher attempts around the basket, but he's still going in.

He's posting up guys. He's still taking those mid-range turnarounds, maybe fewer. But the only significant difference that I see is that he's not hesitating as much. I don't know what it is. It seems like he's more confident in his play right now, and he seems to believe more in himself. I don't know if it's, if it has anything to do with the fact that Jeremy Grant is out, maybe he's just not worried about losing his rotation spot anymore or maybe not losing his starting role anymore, but that's really the only difference that I see. Like, he's still taking the same shots to me. They're just going in more. I don't know what the

big difference is. I'll tell you the big difference. Who's better? Hoodie Mello. or headband who's better honestly because nobody cared who sedique was until he put on the headband you can't wear a hoodie on the court no you well i mean in the olympics training on the pre that's beside the basically the way that i view sedique's um reinvigoration here has to do with the fact that and this is something uh i'll toot our horns a little bit because this is something that we've been preaching on the show for a while now his next evolution as a player was always going to be an enhanced version of what he was doing his rookie year, not a re-invention of who he is, not a transformation into someone else entirely.

So I thought this experiment, we'll call it, what they've been doing with Sadiq creating his own offense. They've sort of been trying to turn him into like a Tatum light type of guy. And he just does not have the physical or the practical tools to be that kind of player, to fill that archetype to to step into that role and be effective we've seen what it looks like when he's thrust into that spot and the results are disastrous like mike referenced he was on both ends of the floor the worst starter in the league pretty much when he was forced to play outside of those very specific confines of what made him such an effective player in his rookie year but now Tommy you make

a good point it's like yeah it doesn't look like he's playing differently but when you really stop to examine the contrast between what he's been doing for the most of the season. And what he's done in the past few games is that there's not a lot of wasted movement. He's very decisive. He's not decisive and he's not indecisive. Those two things are, they sound like I'm saying the same thing. But I'm really, it's just the encapsulation of what's made him so good these past few games

can basically be boiled down to. He's doing what he did his rookie year while adding a few things such as, you know, attacking closeouts when it benefits him, hitting shots when he's open or. when he even has just a little bit of space, he's doing the things that he did well, his rookie year, but just a little bit better. And that leap, because it really is a leap,

because he was so good his rookie year, that marginal improvements are a leap. He's doing them to a degree that makes him effective. I think he's averaging, like he might be up for a player of the week. It's like, I don't know, 24 points per game this month or something like that. Like, he's been awesome.

He's been awesome. So I just think that that's what it boils down to. He's not trying to be someone else. He's trying to be a better version of what he was last year. So the differences I would say I've seen, yeah, you've cut out the attacks from the perimeter on in unless he has mismatches. That's a big deal because what they were basically doing was just handing him the ball. This is the practical way that they were going about things. It's just, you know, okay, Sadiq just take the ball and try to beat your matchup off the dribble.

And it's very, very, very difficult to do that. Very few players can actually do that effectively. And Sadiq is disadvantaged in that, athletically speaking. It was almost kind of like he was just a really, really bad version of Janus who couldn't score and wouldn't pass. So what I've seen from the last three games, he's not doing that nearly as much. He'll only do it against mismatches. He's initiating a lot of his movement from within the arc.

He is getting a lot done by catching the ball when he's already moving. He seems to be playing more within himself. And also just on the perimeter, he's moving. He's not just waiting to catch the ball and do it. so he's moving. He's just playing in a way that just seems a lot more suited to him, aside from the postoffs, which I think are still pretty bad, because the defense knows what he's going to do,

and they just go in to block him the second he turns around. But beyond that, it just seems like he's playing more within himself, and he's having more success, and that just engenders confidence in him. I think he was being used in a criminally stupid manner for those first 20-whatever games. So, yeah, I've been impressed, and do I think he's going to be at 20-point?

plus point for game scoring the NBA. No, I'd still say I don't think he will be, but I think it's just a matter of playing more to his strengths than his weaknesses. And the goodness, gracious did the coaching staff have him playing to all of his weaknesses, you know, but for that up until the last few games. Yeah, we need to have a happy about it. Yeah. We need to know whose idea it was to toss the headband on him.

We got to know. They deserve so much credit. They really, really do it. If that was Sadiq just deciding to go with a different look, good on them, because I don't know about you guys, but as soon as he came out wearing that bright white headband, I was like, this is going to, he's going to pop off tonight. I know, and he has, to his credit, you know, sometimes it's the little changes that can make all the difference in your mentality, your confidence.

And Mike, I like how you touched on the fact that as he's being used in a more appropriate manner, he's finding more success, which creates a positive feedback loop with his confidence, right? Because the more confident he is, the easier it is for him to knock down his shots. So it's a positive feedback loop, like I said. And as these things sort of just work in cohesion, we're looking at Sadiq actually improving rather than regressing, which only spells really good things for this team moving forward.

Yeah, I agree. So, and yeah, I mean, it's a striking difference from going for a player who was a problem on defense because he was just uncharacteristically blowing rotations and then making bad decisions and was terrible on offense to a player who is more of his old self. on defense and doing very well on offense. I don't think he'll be scoring 25 points per game, but he's basically, he's just being used in a way that plays to his strengths,

just he's shooting threes, he's attacking mismatches, and he's using his size and strength in the interior. So I've been happy with that. Of course, we have to look at, and I don't know if this was a concurrent decision made as a one made, you know, decision made as a result of Jeremy Grant's injury.

We should talk, I believe, about how that is impacted. things because I hadn't thought about this until now. Was this just a spontaneous change that they were plenty on making anyway? Or was the fact that Grant was out of the offense? Now, did that necessitate or was that the spur for the change in how the coaching staff decided to utilize Bay? And the more I think about it, the more I think that that may have actually been the

case because they showed absolutely no signs of deviating on the course that they had decided upon until Grant was out until that Pacers game. They had no interest in deviating from. the Jason Tatum light experiment. They had no interest in deviating from that. There was no evidence that they were planning on deviating from that. But when Grant is unable to play, that obviously creates a vacuum in terms of production, in terms of scoring, in terms of field goal attempts.

And what is the coaching staff going to do when faced with such a massive vacuum? You know, they have to kind of go back to what they know works. And what they know works is the Sadiq of last year. So it's like, okay, we've lost our theoretical best player, or theoretical leader. Now we just need to do the things that we're good at. Now we just need to sort of weather the storm here. And that means Sadiq taking on the role that he's proven to be effective at.

And we're seeing that pay dividends. So that's a good point, Mike. I hadn't really thought of that before you said it. But yeah, I would say it's less of a wise organizational decision and more of their hand being forced. And now a quick word from our sponsor. Another week of the NFL season means another shot to win big at Draft King's sportsbook.

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It seems backwards to me, honestly, that they decided to cut back Sadiq's role after losing their primary option. I honestly thought it was going to be the other way around where they were going to try to force even more. And I don't know why it would seem like they would have cut Sadiq's role back. If anything, I thought they were going to continue to try to work with it because right now, I still think that Sadiq is like a fifth option on a good team. And right now he's probably the second option.

His fellow starters are Hamadu Diallo, Killian Hayes and Isaiah Stewart. Killian is unwilling or unable to shoot the ball most nights. Isaiah Stewart is not a volume score. Hamadio is like a situational thing. It really might just be the fact that the offense is flowing a lot more. The ball is moving a lot more. I think Jeremy Grant's, one of the medium criticisms is that he's a bit of a ball stopper and the offense doesn't move a lot.

Homanoo Diallo doesn't have that problem. I've been skeptical of Hamadou and his potential contribution, but I will say that the offense is moving a lot more. You see a lot more offball activity when Hamadu Diallo or Frank Jackson are on the floor. And I think that's been really important. I am worried that as we kind of fall into a regular rotation within like a week or two, that guys are going to have scouting reports and that we're going to become predictable again, there's this thing that happens. I think back to when the piston started 14 and 6, they were running.

a new type of offense. And once teams figured it out, Stan Bangan only continued to run it and he didn't really make any adjustments. But that's kind of a Dwayne Casey calling card as well. I think there will be troubles once teams start to figure this out. And it's not always going to be a night like tonight where, one, the offense is missing most of their starters. And two, our guys shoot the ball fairly well.

Hamadu Diyah was like 7 to 10. I think Sadiq Bay was 7 of 13 on field goals and then 10 free throw attempts. It's not always going to be like that. Oh, totally. So it's encouraging for tonight, but it's definitely a worry for me. Yeah. Now, why I think that's that changed. Definitely logic would dictate, oh, we're going to try to have Sadiq do more.

I think that with Grants around, it's, you know, they felt like they could stay competitive in games while having Sadiq do things he wasn't good at. I think that that's possible explanation. Yeah. Now, yeah, I absolutely agree that things are flowing a lot of. better in the offense without Grant. This is almost 100% sure just a Dwayne Casey issue when it comes to Jeremy Grant. When he has his go-to veteran, especially a guy who likes to ISO, that guy gets to do whatever

he wants, and Casey even leans on him heavily, like as we saw in the Washington game, for example, when the last two plays that Casey quote-unquote called were Jeremy Grant to ISO's from the left side and the first two, the first two possessions of overtime also were Jeremy Grant-ISos from the left side. So DeMardo Rosen was the same way, Casey handled the ball, do whatever you want. And even in crunch time, please just take the ball and score with it. And DeRosan was an elite ISO score at that point. So during the regular season, it worked just fine.

And the playoffs when teams were defending more tightly, it was often very bad. So, yeah, you take that guy off the floor, and Dwayne Casey is forced to work with a bunch of guys who can't, not that Jeremy Grant is a good ISO scorer, but a bunch of guys, you basically just have to run a more flowing offense. So, yeah, I agree teams. I don't think Bay is going to be scoring more than 20 points a game. game. Yeah, he's like the Pacers ostensibly have a strong interior defense with Turner. I mean, they were missing some guys also, though. And Turner got in a foul trouble. The Rockets, of course, are not a good defensive team and the heat were missing Butler and Audubio.

Auto Bio may be like a perennial defense with the defensive player, the year contender one day, not long in the future. So could it be trouble? Yes. We'll see when the Pistons start playing more difficult teams. I know they play the Knicks next. The Knicks are missing a lot of guys because of health and safety. We'll see, but I know that, so that the rumors have come out that the Pistons are not really looking to trade grant. I don't, the real source was Jake Fisher, Jake Fisher guy from Bleacher reports. I think the distinction needs to be made between Jake Fisher and a guy like, and guys like Adrian

Moshenorowski and Shum Sharania who report news, like legitimately, they report news. You hear it and you can be very confident that it's actually true and it's going to have. And Jake Fisher has some sources. He also is from how I've been able to see it. It's very, very willing to traffic and rumors. Like a lot of his free agency predictions did not come true, for example. I believe he was the source. Correct me if I'm wrong of the number one pick for Shai, a She, excuse me, Gilgius Alexander.

He was. He was. Number six, never corroborated by anybody. And, you know, you had Zach Lowe, who is a fairly good authority in the NBA saying he thinks his nonsense. but nobody corroborated it. So is it true? I'd say probably. And toward that end, we're going to spend a while talking about potential Jeremy

Grant trade scenarios. Yeah, I'm wondering first before we jump into the scenarios, do we maybe want to touch on why we think the organization is sort of shifted to trade grant mode? Like, do we want to touch on what that entails? I'd love to know your guys' take on it. Yeah, Tommy, what do you think? Yeah, so just going back to whether Jake Fisher has any sources here,

I the way that it's phrased in the news and because he's not the only one talking about this. He mentioned Zach Lowe. Zach Lowe has mentioned that at this deadline, Jeremy Grant is the big name. He's the big target. Nobody is saying that the Pistons are looking to trade Jeremy Grant. Jake Fisher said that. I believe I said that. The way I've seen it everywhere is that like everybody is calling about Jeremy Grant.

And it's like they're calling every week or everybody's looking into it. And I feel like that wouldn't be the case if the Pistons were just like, nope, we're not really looking to trade him. But the Pistons are also linked to a lot of rumors. I think that Troy Weaver just does his due diligence. So I don't know how real it is, but I wouldn't be surprised at this point just because I don't think that the team intended to be this bad. And maybe it is, you know, acceptable at this point for Jeremy Grant because he came to the Pistons for a bigger role. and to presumably, you know, get that respect. Like he was a fourth option in Denver.

Get that next contract. Yeah, exactly. He's definitely earned himself a lot of money just off of this stint. Oh, yeah. And he's already, he's got that benefit. So now wherever he goes and when he looks to sign his next contract, teams are going to be looking at him differently. They're going to consider what he can bring differently.

So he's got that benefit. And even if we were to trade him, I don't think it would reflect poorly on us anymore. Like, that was one of the things I was. was very hung up on. It was like, no, you can't trade him because he was like our first big free agent in like a long time. He chose to come here. But now I feel like it wouldn't be viewed so poorly.

And if he wants to compete and he wants to, you know, be on a team where he's actually competing for something while he is in his prime, that is perfectly understandable because we look rough right now. And he's not a perfect fit for the timeline. I still feel like there isn't a ton of pressure for the pistons to trade him if they don't want to because he still could fit the timeline. That hasn't changed just because we're not that good right now. But I could also see his trade in him and it would be understandable for both parties.

So I see it. Yeah, I see it too. And I think, yeah, Fisher's not the only one who was talking about there being a lot of interest in Grant. At least I don't correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think he was the only one. And as Sean Sharanay reported, well, the way he put it was funny. he said that dozens of teams are calling every week.

I think we meant the Pistons were getting dozens of calls because that would be that at least 24 teams a week we're calling about Grant and I think that's a little unlike. Yeah, that's probably a little much, probably a bit of a hyperbole. But I think Tommy's absolutely right. You don't feel that many calls if Word gets around that you're picking up the phone listening for a second

and then telling the other team to kick rocks and hanging up. Obviously the Pistons are doing some active listening. And like I get it. I get why they might want to trade Grant. and I understand why Grant might want to be traded. You know, I'll pull from what I said about the fit between Cade and Killian a little bit in what I said about Cade. And it's that he's become a star or gotten onto the trajectory of being a star

a lot sooner than most in the organization realized. And we didn't even know that we would have the chance to draft him in the first place. And I don't think, as much as I like Grant, as much as I agree with Tommy in that if things worked out optimally, he could be a part of, you know, a cohesive part of this timeline moving forward. I just don't think that this iteration of Jeremy, you know, the one that he became last year, mentality-wise, can really synergetically coexist with what Kate is now, let alone what Kate is going to become. Like, I just don't think that you can have two the guys on a team. And it's like at this point, why take the ball out of Cade's hands for anybody? Like,

we're seeing now with Grant out, sure, we're not winning a lot of games, but we weren't winning a lot of games before. And I wouldn't say that these matchups are any more or less competitive than they were with Grant. You know, if anything, we got to win without them, right? So I think Kate is more than capable of being the dude. Like, I really, really do. And if Grant is like, well, you know, I'm not the guy anymore. Thanks for your time. Screw this.

I want to go somewhere where I'm winning. That's perfectly reasonable. And I think Tommy is spot on in that it doesn't reflect poorly on the. Pistons anymore. So I think if Grant gives his blessing, I fully expect him to be traded. Now, what that trade is going to entail, we're going to get into that soon. But I would lean towards youth picks because it doesn't make sense to me to trade. Of course.

Yeah, you know what I mean? It doesn't make sense to trade a quote unquote win now guy for another way. It's just organizationally and direction-wise. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But we'll get into it. We'll get into the trade scenarios. So Tommy, you also brought up in our kind of. conversations earlier, that you believe Grant didn't think the team would be quite this bad,

that maybe there might have been some of the expectations, not that the Pistons would be a good team, but that they wouldn't be an absolute mess like they have in this season, and that maybe that might speed his departure a little bit. Honestly, playing for a really bad team, you know, who knows if it would last until next season, but could cost him some money to, you know, if it's the difference between being a very valuable second or third option versus being the first option on a really bad team

who is going to have more trouble with efficiency because he's, you know, because he can't really, because he's expected to create so much. But I think that's, I just think the Pistons would be perfectly willing to train him at this point.

I mean, that maybe he might have fit the timeline better if they had made substantive improvement this season. But it seems likely the season's going to be a mess. And, you know, why bother at this point? Again, if he gives his blessing, because I agree with you, Tommy, that he's a guy who chose Detroit. He chose Detroit at very low points, and you want to do right by him.

Yeah, exactly. And as far as their expectations for this year, there was a quote from April of this year. It's Jeremy Grant on losing versus his time in Philadelphia in his early career. He was part of the process Sixers. And he said, it's not the same. It's a lot different. It's not a rebuild. It's not a three or four years into the future.

We're looking forward to doing something big next year. and we are in year two and we are off to a worse start than year one. Yeah. Not ideal. There's a lot of rough stuff this year. We definitely took a hit on talent, injuries, and we were just a few pieces away. So it does make sense in some people's minds to trade grant. Yeah.

So why don't we move on to trade ideas? Now, Tommy and I both came up, we came up with some overlapping ideas. We found five in total. So, yeah, Tommy, we'll start with one that is very dear to Tommy's heart. Tommy has been a big fan of Anthony Simons for some years. I mean, certainly as far back as we've been doing this podcast together has been a very big fan of Amproneysimons, even at times when I felt it made no sense because the guy was scoring like six points a game on them not so great efficiency. Yeah, he's a dedicated fan.

Yeah, definitely. So why don't we go out with that one? And Tommy, you can write a, you know, you can speak out your solilo. on your love for it. Is that right? Soliloquy. Yeah. That's a good one. Yeah. I was never good for that. That and monologue and whatnot. I mean, I'm thinking back to like, like 11th grade literature class and honestly just couldn't be bothered.

So why don't you go ahead. Yeah, Tommy, do some, do some hamlet. Do some hamlet for us. Yeah, something is wrong in the state of Portland, the state of Washington, a brother more or more specifically. Yeah, I think Mike's got that covered. But I have been a huge fan of Anthony Simon since the tail end of his rookie year. where the Blazers were in the playoffs and they just decided to rest everybody who wasn't important. And Anthony Simons comes out in game 82 and he drops 37,

tail end of his rookie year. I don't think he even went to college. I'm pretty sure he's like one of the last few players to somehow make it in straight from high school because of some weird circumstances. But ever since then, I was just like, wow, this guy is talented, but he is stuck behind Dame Lillard. That's not really stuck. It's Damien Lillard, but also C.J. McCollum.

And he's functionally like they're six man right now. But he is a talented, talented player, talented score. And I think that the Blazers are hoping that they'll move C.J. McCollum, and then Simons will come in and play the two. There are some people who are in that vein. But I think that Simons, and with all these trade ideas, I feel like it's less about the parts and the pieces of the trade and more about like a target player or a target asset.

And for mine, it's, I have wanted Anthony Simons literally since the Blake Riffin Day is my idea, back then was Whiteside, who was making 20 million for the Blazers that year, and Simons, and then picks for Blake Riffin. This was peak Blake Riffin. That is the last. That is the last year. That's what I got worse. Yeah. I think they would have, I think Portland probably would have laughed at it. Actually, maybe not at that point, though they refused to trade. This is when Blake was good. And my criticism of Portland has always been that they just refuse to go all in on Damien Lillard.

And there's a ton of pressure on them right now to do something. So the idea is, The idea is you send Jeremy Grant to Portland and you take back, well, let me just go. This is one of my own ideas. And it's this. It's Jeremy Grant, Corey Joseph, Luca Garza, go to Portland. And you get back Robert Covington, Anthony Simons, and Larry Nance, Jr. The money works and then you don't have to, like, wave anybody. You get Jeremy Grant to Portland.

Portland takes it because they replace an underperforming and kind of struggling Robert Covington with a, like a highly sought after and decent player in Jeremy Grant. I think he feels like he helps them on the wing. And then Corey Joseph is replacing Anthony Simons as the backup point guard. And then Larry Nance Jr., I mean, he gives some bounce to the pistons. And then you lose Luca Garza, who is a great team guy, but really don't need him right now. I really, for me, it's just about getting Anthony Simons. This is one where you don't get any draft capital back.

I just think that Anthony Simons, and I'll talk about him. 6-4, very athletic, gifted score, had his stats here a second ago. Yeah, here it is. On the year right now, he is shooting just under 40% from 3 on 5.6 attempts per game in 23 minutes, and then 44% on field goals. He is a talented score, and he was in the dunk contest. I think he won the dunk contest a year or two ago. Very athletic, gifted score.

He can handle the ball a little bit. I think he would be a phenomenal fit next to Cade. Like, he is the guy that everybody wants Killian Hayes to be, minus the defense. I don't think he's a particularly good defender. Minus the playmaking, too. He's not great at that. I think he has some playmaking chops. Like, he does handle the ball a little bit for the Blazers, but they have, he's usually

out there with, you know, another guard who can handle the ball more. But you don't want to take the ball out of Cade's hands too much. It's just something that he can do in a pinch. So I think the balance is there and it's natural. So if we could make this happen, I think it would be fantastic. The other thing is there's a few wrinkles. One, Anthony Simons is a restricted free agent. So you could just try to throw the bag at him in the offseason and then not trade grant for him.

And then Portland is looking at a pretty hefty bill. So maybe they don't match. But that's always a risk. Maybe they do match and you don't get him. And then you'd have got to move Grant for something else. But I think Simons is probably my favorite fit of all the guys that I've seen or thought of because I just am a huge fan of Anthony Simons. I think once he gets a starting rule somewhere in the NBA, he's going to be a very high-value player.

So what I would say about your trade idea, I mean, sure, you can avoid waving people if you get players back. But, or excuse me, if you send players back, if you send Corey Joseph back, if you send the Corey Joseph as a no trade clause, it should be noted. That's kind of complicated. It is a wrinkle. Yeah, that's a minor wrinkle. He might be willing to go to Portland. Clearly, his role on a team seems, it seems that he has been, that, whatever, I'm tripping over my words tonight, apologies, but it seems it's been substantially reduced. I believe it was said, I wasn't watching the Pacers broadcast, but I believe it has been alleged that he said to somebody on the Pacers broadcast team that he's not likely to play very much because the Pistons are going to be playing probably saving Lee Moore or something.

I don't know. whatever the case, the trade I would look at would be, and this is based upon the notion that they would like to keep Nance over Robert Covington. I would just descend over Covington and Simons in exchange for Jeremy Grant. I'd also ask just like a 2020, maybe this is the thing. All right, so the Blazers, it's similar to the Isaiah Stewart situation with the Pistons. the Blazers owe a pick to the Bulls, which is protected until like 2028, which means they're not be able to trade a pick in that time. However, you can put stipulations in the trade that says, okay, the pick will convey to another team two years after the pick conveys to Chicago.

So you could go with that. It would mean that the earliest would be 2024, you know, if you were to make this trade mid-season. So you get a lottery protected pick in 2024. Cool. No way to Portland doesn't lottery protect that. Like, no, no, no way at all. So their pick to Chicago is a lot of repotected, just for the sake of establishing that. So, yeah, that's the trade I would make if they wanted to keep Covington. Maybe they do because they certainly need all the help. They can get it forward. Or maybe they really believe in a Sierra Little and Covington has been terrible this year.

Maybe they go with Nance at that point, at which case you just attach Snell as well. And, of course, you wave snow. So you're right, Tommy, that you could just throw the bag in them in the off season. That's a very uncertain thing, though. you never know if another team's going to outbid you, even if that's Portland or another team is going to outbid you for Anthony Simons. And you will have to pay him in the offseason if you trade for him. As far as the fit, if he can continue improving, if he can become a better motion three-point shooter, then great. It does kind of kill my dream of just fielding a really big lineup of like Kate.

And which, you know, Kate is like the shortest player and you have like a 6-7 shooting guard or 6-6 shooting guard. That would be cool. And it does nerve your ability a little bit to field an elite defensive lineup. but it's a trade that I would consider. It would not be at the top of my list if we're going through all of these scenarios. But Portland, as far as Grant, Portland has their last good forward with Lamarcus Aldridge. He left in 2015. So they have since then had all of their eggs in the basket of C.J. McCollan and Damian Lillard.

They traded four like six foot three or is he smaller than that. Norman Powell, who's playing small forward now, they are weak, is incredibly weak at forward. and you add Grant, it gives you a creator and a fairly high-level player at Forward. Also gives them help to use of NERCITCH in the interior on defense because Grant has become a reliable helps that defender. So I think it's a trade which would be attractive to them. So that'll be it for this part of what we have decided to turn into another two-parter as we've got quite a bit more in the way of Grant trade ideas and then a bunch of users

submitted questions to answer. So the rest of those will show up in the next episode, which should be up on Thursday morning. So as always, thank you all for listening. We'll catch you in the next episode.