Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 77: Jerami Grant Trade Scenarios

Episode Date: December 23, 2021

This episode picks up where the last left off, exploring more potential Jerami Grant trade scenarios. 

Welcome back, everybody, to Drive Into the Basket, part of the Basketball Podcast Network. I am Mike, joined, as always, by Dante and Tommy, and this is a part two of sorts to an episode which we released earlier this week, one which we ended by beginning to go over some Jeremy Grant trade scenarios. Ultimately, the episode ended up going far longer than we expected, so we made the decision to split it into two parts and go over the rest of those scenarios in this episode. So Dante, I know there is a certain scenario you favor that includes the Pacers. Why don't you take it away? Yeah. One trade that sort of caught my eye and something that I would not mind at all is Jeremy Grant from Miles Turner straight up. Maybe you toss in a couple second round picks coming the Pistons way by way of the Pacers.

But the reason that I like this trade for the Pistons anyway is because I feel like it gives us a lot of what we're missing. and that's size, length, rebounding, rim protection, athleticism, and really just the piece that you want to put at the five who can best complement Cade, as well as the other players

in the starting lineup. My only issue, and I wonder what the two of you think of this, but I don't quite understand how this might make sense for Indiana, and I think a lot of that has to do with, like, what do you believe the cultural or organizational zeitgeist is over there?

it's like, okay, so we saw that they want to trade Lavert, Sabonis, and Turner. It's one of the two. They want to trade one of Sabonis or Turner. Exactly. And it's like, so are they tearing down or are they shifting course? It's like what exactly is going on in Indiana and what course do they want to chart for the organization themselves here? And it's like, well, if they really just want to shake things up and trade a good player for another good player in hopes that it can sort of take them to new heights, I understand why they might want Grant. because in my opinion, Grant is a more valuable player than Miles Turner straight up,

but I just think on the Pistons end, it's like, okay, you get two years younger, you get positionally or more positionally appropriate. You know, you're able to slot someone into the starting lineup who best fits there, whose skill set we desperately, desperately need. And you can maybe just sort of start to put together a more cohesive unit. You know, you can surround Cade with pieces that are complementary to him. So, yeah, I don't know. I think maybe we'll see the grant trade mill sort of pick up some scheme here in the coming weeks

and the coming, you know, maybe leading up to the trade deadline. But yeah, Miles Turner, that's something to look out for. So we really have to have this discussion on the basis of like on the scenario that the Pacers are still looking to kind of pivot and just make some trades but continue to compete. Certainly an organization that's been very content with kind of mediocrity. of being kind of like the fourth, excuse me, the fifth, six, seven seed. I haven't looked at their playoff at their regular season record recently,

but they have not been a top team in the east in a long time, long time to be. Perfect place to be in the middle. Yeah, sure. Yeah, Pistons fans would know about that, though generally it was the lower middle, the higher, you know, the low lottery. That was real great.

So for the Pacers, I would say this trade would get them out from under the Turner-Savanais duo, which they seem to just want to be finished with. that would move Sabanis to center, would replace Turner with a guy who is more of a perimeter dude and can create offense from the perimeter and can help out to Bonus a little bit on defense. And for the Pistons, yeah, you find your presumptive center of the future. Turner is a top-notch interior defender. There is no denying that.

Like he is really an excellent interior defender, switchable also, and conceivable stretch center. Now, the way Turner has been used with the Pacers, Sabanis handles most of the interior stuff, and Turner does, it really just does a lot of spotting up on the perimeter. Now, the trouble is that up until this season, he's never been particularly good at it. A guy who can do his shooting his open threes at like 35% is more of just the titular floor spacer instead of a guy who's really going to give you threes, who's really going to give you a lot of scoring from there. Useful, but not great.

He's also a relatively weak interior score has been at this point. point, not a good rebounder. I mean, his numbers are a little bit deceptive because he's played next to Thaddeus Young and Sabanis for almost his entire career. And those are beefy power forwards who play in the interior. But in terms of contested rebound percentage, and these are mostly higher than a disproportionate chair versus other centers will be defensive rebounds because he does not in position to rebound offensively as much as the average center is bad.

Like he is not good at fighting for rebounds. So you'd really have to hope. that he improves as an interior score, certainly. He certainly has said, he said recently he's clearly dumb with Indiana. I can do way more paraphrase. I can do way more than this team has allowed me to do.

So, here are your questions for the Pistons, in addition to those shortcomings. It does give you an elite interior defensive presence, does give you a conceivable forespacer if he can keep up this season's performance when he's shooting close to 40%.

And that's nice, you have your center of the future, you move Stewart to the bench. Stewart is not a power forward. It's just, it's not like he's an undersized, it's just an undersized center as a power forward. Stewart can switch. He cannot chase guys around the perimeter, even if he can shoot.

He's not quick around the perimeter, whatever the case. Do you want to pay Turner when by the time, do you want to acquire him when by the time the pistons are conceivably looking at competing in 2023, you have to pay him again. You could conceivably get him just in the offseason then, but you want to pay him like $25 million a year?

$25 million is the going rate for a good start of these days. Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of money. Maybe he has another gear to show. Maybe not. That's your question. And you want to trade for a player who is just not really going to serve much of a purpose on your roster at this point because you're not trying to win. And also the replacement value at center is very high.

Like you can get a center, basically any center can play in the NBA who can switch decently well, defend the rim decently well. roll to the basket and catch lobs, and you can pay not much money for them. You're going to have to pay turnover a lot. So what I do it, I would say only if there's really nothing better and that there's a lot to be lost, and I think there is by waiting for the offseason

because teams are going to pay more to have grant for two post seasons. But I'd rather move for somebody younger, paid less, and not soon to be a free agent. Yep. The only thing that I would have to add to that is that as far as what the pacer's are looking for, I don't think they'd be interested in grant because it really doesn't seem like one of those things

where they're trying to pivot into another middling team. From my interpretation of that news of like Indiana is looking to rebuild and tear down is like they want a tank. Like for the first time in like 25 years, they are willing to stop being a middling team and try to do essentially what the pistons are doing. And I think it'd have to be a three team trade because if that is the case, the Pacers are probably looking for the same thing that the pistons are looking for. So that's that kind of puts a big wrench in that.

Like I don't know how that goes about. And like you said, I don't want to, with all those issues, I'm not a huge fan of this idea. Like if we acquired Miles Turner, it would certainly help the Cape Cunningham situation. But I don't know if it's the best option on here. So it's not my favorite for sure. All right, moving on number three. And I'll just go with this one. I'm tempted to put it last, but I'll just go with this one because this would be great.

I don't know if it's likely or not. I really don't. This is the Bulls. It really depends on if they decide, okay, we're looking good and we want to go absolutely and utterly full bore right now. And certainly the Bulls are very aggressive in the offseason. So who knows? Maybe it's the case. So this would be grants for Patrick Williams and Derek Jones Jr. Derek Jones Jr. is purely a salary matching fodder. So for the Bulls, like I said, if they just want to go full bore, like absolutely full bore and they say, okay. This will leave us strong at pretty much every position. Well, strong enough. I mean, you've got, I think you have Caruso starting now at point guard. This will move Zach Levine, ostensibly a point guard, and Wanzobal, the shooting guard, or whatever, you swap those.

Monzo ball basically just does perimeter playmaking and shoots threes. This kicks to Rosen back down to small forward. He's been playing a lot of power forward. And then you got Granite Power Forward and Vuccivic there at center. That's a strong lineup. It allows you to field two or three guys you can create offense at any given time. So that would be good for them. Again, Grant would help Vuccivich, not a super strong guy, not a super strong defender in the interior. For the Pistons, a good prospect. We know Weaver likes him. And Patrick Williams, you know, who knows, who knows what he has to offer, but he seems to have pretty high upside. Your questions for the Bulls, Grant is not going to score as many points on that team. It's just there's only so much ball to go around.

It does mean that they would be able to feel a very strong lineup for the playoffs and that they'd have strong scores on there at all times. They'll also be paying grants about three times with A.O. Williams depends on how much they want to pay next season in particular when when Levine becomes eligible for his max extension. Basically, their payroll is going to increase significantly. If they don't care, cool. Chicago's a big market. But it really hinges on how much they like Williams versus what they think they can get out of grant in the short term. Questions, question marks for the Pistons. This is the only scenario I can think of that has zero question marks for the Pistons.

This seems like assuming that Williams can capitalize on that potential and, you know, I can't think of a downside for the Pistons at all. So would I do this? Yes, this would be my ideal trade scenario. This is the one that I think is probably the most likely to happen just because I think it makes a lot of sense for both teams. Patrick Williams, this is really. all banking on what you think his upside is.

And he was taken top four. He rocketed up draft boards kind of right at the end of that draft cycle. And for good reason, you know, he's looked decent. The problem is he's just shown flashes to this point. And he plays timid, I think, is kind of like what I think of when I see him. And he settles for a lot of mid-range. Like, that's his preferred shot. And his jump shot looks good.

Like he rises up and he shoots it. It's all in the wrist. And it looks good. But I don't know what. his upside is. I don't think you're going to get anything close to Jeremy Grant's production for like two years. And that's fine because he's a young player and he's a project and you're banking on long-term upside. But I feel like it's risky. Jeremy Grant is a good player. And for a trade where you're probably not going to get any, if you're going to get any draft capital, it's not

going to be good because the Bulls are going to be a good team, especially if you give him Jeremy Grant. it's it's iffy to me again i think this is probably the likeliest one to happen and this is a guy that we were definitely liked or was definitely heavily rumored to like leading up to that draft but you know it's it's iffy to me and then as far as the jeremy grant thing jeremy grant is at the very best a third option on this team behind zack levin and demar de mardozen and maybe that's not a role that he really likes but if he wants to win that's probably his best chance Just worth noting that Bulls can't trade a pick. I mean, they have this Portland pick ostensibly incoming.

If they get rid of that, then actually, I think they could trade that. Nope, actually they can't, not right now because that would mean they have no pick in this upcoming draft. And their 2023 first-trial pick is going to Orlando from the Butchovich trade. I forgot. Yeah, so the Steppy and rule. Yeah, the Stepping rule, you have to have a pick in, you cannot be without a pick in two consecutive drafts. excuse me. Now, you can trade, let's say they have their 2023 outbound. You can trade your 22 on draft night because you have just drafted the player and then the clock resets and you're looking

at the next two seasons. But at this point, no, cannot trade a pick. Yeah. Yeah, I just, I agree with what you guys have said. I really think Tommy touched on it though very well. And in that it's probably the likeliest trade to happen because I don't think we as a fan base should undersell. believer's willingness to go after players that he really likes. And I know, yeah, like you said, Tommy, it was just rumored how much he liked Pat Will, but it was rumored for a while and it was rumored from a bunch of different sources. So it's like, I'm willing to bet where there's smoke, there's fire. I think the Pistons as an organization are high on Pat Will.

And I don't see anything up to this point that would stop them from being high on him. Like, yeah, his ceiling is a question mark. But a lot of the players on this team have question marks for ceilings, right? So it's like, what's adding one more to the mix? And I think it makes a lot of sense for Chicago too. Now, the big question, like you said, Tommy, is this somewhere that Grant wants to be? If he's prioritizing winning, absolutely. If he's prioritizing maximizing his next paycheck, maybe not.

So I guess we'll see. But out of all of the ideas that we have proposed or going to propose, I think this one is probably the likeliest followed by, yeah, I want to say the Turner one. But I do like this trade quite a bit for the Pistons. Yeah, it's worth noting that the Bulls this season actually have been surprisingly strong on defense. They've got the seventh rank defense right now, are tied for sixth, actually, with the Jazz, who are pretty darn good defensive team. Somehow Golden State, because they are amazing at everything, have the top defense in the league. And they also have the number four offense in the league.

So, you know, that's good for them. So, yeah, this would make the Bulls somewhat stronger. offensively. And also makes them better able to weather the loss of one of their stark players in the playoffs, because you never know. And right now, if they lose, you know, particularly if De Rosen or Levine goes down, of course, if Levine goes down, you're screwed. I mean, there's no, you're not going to make it best the second round, most likely. But let's say you lose DeRosan, you lose Vujavich. Though DeRosan's been very good this season, then this just gives you more padding. So it depends on how highly they think of Williams.

Bear in mind that he was the fourth overall pick and what was considered a very weak draft. You've got a couple of good players in Moa Ball, and I believe Anthony Edwards will come out of that. And I think they'll be very good players. But this was not a strong draft. There is like, yeah, it just wasn't. Williams might have been like lower end of the top 10 in this last draft, which is incredibly strong. All right, Tommy, you've got Atlanta. Yeah.

Before I say that, though, interesting connection. Jeremy Grant's father, Harvey Grant, he played in Portland. And then his uncle Horace Grant played for the Bulls. Look at that. There's a phone little connection there. He's got something. Yes. And then moving on to, what is it, Atlanta?

Let's see. I thought I gave that one away. Do you have a trade for them because I thought we had switched that one to you? Yeah, yeah, I do. I mean, I honestly don't really know it. So here's the thing about the Hawks. They have a lot of guys at forwards wings. So, I mean, you've got Bogdanovich, you've got Gallinari, who's, of course, expendable.

You have D'Andre Hunter, who I believe is injured again. You have Cam Reddish, and you have a Kevin Horter, Heter, who's, and Hurter seems like they're long-term guy at shooting guard. And then, of course, you have Trey Young. So a characteristic of Atlanta, they're pretty much screwed on the cap front for like the next three or four seasons. At least three seasons, they're going to have a lot of trouble at signing new guys in free agency. So really their only way to improve the team is by trade. You know, because you've got a big contract for Trey Young. his extension.

You've got a pretty big contract for John Collins. Bug Donovich makes quite a bit of money, though I believe he's only under contract for a couple more seasons after this one. So, yeah, trading is really the only way that they're going to be able to subs and they'll improve the team. Now the question is, are they looking to trade DeAndre Hunter or are they looking to trade Cam Reddish?

Those would be the two players in whom the Pistons would be interested. They were taken, I believe, in the same draft. This would be 2019. Hunter, I believe, I know people believed he has quite a bit more upside. He's already had two injuries to his right knee. He's only the meniscus, but does that raise questions? And he also just hasn't shown all that much.

Neither has Reddish. Reddish has decent defensive upside, and he's had some hot streaks on offense, but on the whole, it's been a pretty inefficient shooter. So I'm not sure how I feel about either of them. But your trade would be something like Grant and Josh Jackson, just to match salaries for Reddish and Gallinari, or Reddish and DeAndre Hunter, though I believe Hunter is paid more. So you'd have to throw in something more there.

He's actually certainly paid more. So for the Hawks, a way to get better. You have, now you have a rotation of, excuse me, a starting lineup of Trey Young, Kevin Herder. You have Granite small forward, John Collins, and Clint Capella, and you can kick Bogdanovich back to the bench, which seems to be the best place for him. And then you add for like, you ask for like a, 2022 lottery protected first. So yeah, the Pistons, whichever one it is, I suspect it would be Reddish.

I don't think the Hawks are ready to give up on Hunter. You have a young wing who has potential as a score and a two-way presence. Your questions about Hawks, how highly they think of Reddish. Your questions about the Pistons, how highly they think about Reddish. Yeah, and that's what it boils down to, right? I mean, Reddish, sort of the story of his career is like he was tucked behind Zion and RJ at Duke. And I remember people were back in that draft cycle, people were talking about

the hidden gem that is Cam Reddish because he just never got a chance to really unleash his full potential on a Duke team that was so loaded. And then of course you go to Atlanta where it's like it's the Trey Young show and you sort of wonder, has he just not been given a chance to blossom now? I'm not convinced that that's the case. You know, I do think Reddish has upside. I don't know if his upside has been significantly impaired by his situation, but the fact that he's never been prioritized as a focal point, I think is something to consider. And really, it's like the Pistons as an organization or in a spot now where it's like, why don't you swing for the fences with the moves that you intend to make?

And I think that Cam Reddish does have some untapped potential, and I think it could be a beneficial trade for Detroit. Would Atlanta do it? I don't know. Like Mike said, it depends on what they think of Cam, but from the piston side, this is something that I would absolutely consider. Well, yeah, I think if you're Atlanta, you would love this trade because they need a guy who's like a secondary creator who can defend.

And then John Collins, he's like their second best player, but he's not an, he's not operating with the ball in his hands. And Jeremy Grant can. I think he would add just another layer to their offense and he would make them a significantly better team. So for me, it's not even, the big question isn't whether Atlanta should want to do it. I think they should. It should be whether the Pistons want to do it because I know that there's a lot of height

behind Cam Reddish these days, but it's another one of those situations where it's flashes. And Jeremy Grant is a good player. And again, I'm not advocating that we just trade Grant for the sake of trading him. Like, I think we should trade him if we feel like we're going to get good long-term value out of the return. So I haven't watched enough of Cam Reddish to say whether I would like to do this trade. But I think it makes a lot of sense for both sides, depending on what you think of Cam Reddish's

upside. Yeah, the only concern I would have for Atlanta is that they already, I mean, they've already got $122 million or almost $123 million committed. This counts about Donovich's option, maybe a player option, maybe he turns that down. But they've got a lot of money committed already for 2023, 2024, when they would have to pay grant. But who knows, maybe they're fine with that. Maybe they're fine with being a luxury tax team.

I can't even, I can't remember if they even did that during the Jeff Teague, Kyle Corver. Yeah, that's 61 season. Yeah, that's 61 season before they flamed out against the cavaliers two years in a row. So who knows? And of course, to function of that offense, Jeremy Grant can't be quite so much of a ballstopper. But I think in a different system when he's told not to be so much of a ballstopper, it'll work with the Pistons. I get the feeling he's coached very well in terms of a shot selection.

So, yeah, I just don't know what to think about Cam Reddish. I just really don't know what to think about him. But I agree that this would be a good trade for the Hawks. All right, last one. And this one's definitely a long shot. But it was at least one to consider. So that would be with the Grizzlies for. this would be Grant for Desmond Bain and either the Lakers first or the Grizzlies first.

They have three first round picks this season, including the Jazz. The Jazz would be the third one. A lot of protected, of course, because both of these teams kind of, you know, who knows where they would finish. So Desmond Bain is a player. I thought I would have liked for the Pistons to have gotten another pick like early in the second round. once Bain dropped because I thought it was crazy that he dropped into the second round. So he is a very good shooter, very good three-point shooter. We can take motion threes.

He can do some attacking off the dribble. He's just the kind of guy that you would love to put next to Cade. He does have crocodile arms, which is just another way of saying a short wingspan. I believe he's 6-4 and that's a 6-2 wingspan. Not good. 6-2 wingspan sucks in general, put it that way. So though he works hard on defense, he's not very switchable. So, you know, for the Pistons, you get a decent draft pick.

Maybe you get two. You know, maybe you get one of those in the Utah pick. And Bain, I think, would be a solid offensive pick next decade. The question for the Grizzlies is, do they believe in the big three of John Morant, Jeremy Grant, and Jaron Jackson, Jr.? Morant, I think, will be great. He's shooting three as well this year. Jaron Jackson, Jr., I think, is just a prototypical modern center of the future.

if he can stay healthy. You know, he's a guy who can, you know, when he's playing well, shoot three is defend the interior of an elite level and do some attacking off the dribble. And Grant would just fit in as a secondary creator. So do they believe in that big three? I don't know. And in terms of the cap, they could just punt until 2023 and have space even with Moran's extension. Also, I think they really like Bain.

You know, he's been playing really well this season. So would I do with the Pistons, particularly if they can get two first round picks. I think the Grizzlies would not. Oh, also, the Pistons wouldn't need to trade. They wouldn't need to take salary back because Memphis is about $16 million under the cap. Yeah, I like Desmond Bain, and he's been really solid this season, like as a three-point shooter, and that's exactly the type of player that you need around Cade. But I agree with you.

I feel like the fit is just really solid in Memphis, and they have guys who are all about the same age. And I'm not even, like, I don't have, like, huge concerns about negative wingspan, but Bain is he's not the biggest guy to begin with. Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think that one is the likeliest one to happen. Yeah. Just out of curiosity, which one, like out of like all these trades or these players that we're targeting, which one is your favorite? Like if you could pick which one happens.

Bulls. Yeah. Patrick Williams. Yeah. Really? Yeah. I would say the Bulls deal there combines what I think is likeliest and what I think is best. And so when you combine those two,

things. It's like, yeah, that's two thumbs up for me because you get to take a swing on Pat Will's upside. You know, I, for the most part, like 99.9% really trust Weaver as a talent evaluator. And if he was high on Williams, it's like, yeah, I have confidence that Williams can turn into a good player. And also, too, I kind of have a soft spot for the Bulls. You know, I just, I like what they're doing? I watched the last dance and I liked it a lot, which is kind of crazy for a Pistons fan to say, but what are you going to do? And to get grants would just give them so many options to be a force in the playoff. So it's like one of those win-win trades that I think would be beneficial for everybody and likely. So that's probably my favorite deal. And I think I said this earlier,

but that's followed closely by the Turner deal. Yeah, interesting. I mean, does the injury, is that any concern to you? It's a dislocated wrist. I mean, that's, that just kind of, that happened. Yeah. It's sort of a, I thought it was torn ligaments. Sort of a freak thing, though, right? I don't remember. I thought it was, well, the dislocated wrist could include torn ligaments, I believe I'd have to look into it. But yeah, no, I just, I pulled it up October 29th, out for four to six months due to torn ligaments and his wrist that will require surgery. Gotcha.

I don't know what the long term prognosis. I don't think that would be a big deal from what I know about anatomy. I could be wrong, but that doesn't strike me as kind of like a career altering injury. Yeah. I didn't go to med school, but I can't imagine his career is done. Like his career trajectory is probably looking about the same. And it's like, yeah, if Weaver thought he'd be good, I have a lot of confidence that. will be good. And then I just, I really like it. Because then you're going like full youth movement,

like a bunch of lottery picks, bunch of guys with a lot of, you know, physical tools. And we'll see how things sort of progress from there. And I think it could be really, really good for both teams. Yeah. My only thing with him is that he does not like to shoot threes. Like he will pass on an open three and go into the paint and take a, take a two, which that's a useful skill if you're like a high volume, like star player, but you also need to be willing to shoot threes. So, I'm still banking on Enferney Simons. I really hope that that happens. I'm telling you guys.

It's just because he's rotting behind CJ. Once he gets that starting role on his team, he's going to explode. You could be right. You could be right. And isn't Detroit really, like, put more into the misfit toys, like putting guys in? Dante, Dante.

It's not that I could be right. I am right. So Bob Williams, about his injury. Bob Williams's injury was also in his non-shooting hand. That's good. Yeah. He shoots,

like I was watching his film early. It's all wrist. So I was worried about that. Yeah. It was left hand. He's a right-handed shooter. Good. So, yeah.

You guys want to do user-submitted questions now? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'll just reiterate. I would go with the Bulls trade, but I'm intrigued by Simons and just the fact that you like him so much leaves me with some fear of missing out. Yeah, me too. You're so passionate.

And I just, I want this for you. I want him to tell you. He's a dynamic score. He's just, he's stuck in this 20-something minute roll on the Blazers. No, he can be really great. We'll see what happens. And now a quick word for. our sponsor. Another week of the NFL season means another shot to win big at Draft King's

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On the years of submitted questions. What are the very clear effects of grants absence in terms of positive negative impacts on roster playing recent games? I'll just go first. My answer is very quick. Dwayne Casey can no longer rely on that sort of de Rosam-like presence of I'm going to give you the ball and ask you to score. He actually has to run a flowing offense. Wild. Yeah, that's what I would say.

I'm going to qualify it as I did before by noting that the Pistons have played the Pacers who played uncharacteristically bad defense and then the rockets and the heat without their, you know, two of their three best defenders. So we'll see how that continues in terms of efficacy as the Pistons start playing better teams again. I think this is going to affect Cade pretty negatively because I think a lot of teams where, you know, you have to balance it out. You have to stop Jeremy Grant. he's a dynamic score, but then you also need to put a lot of attention on Cade. And now it's just Cade and a bunch of scrubs who are kind of like rotating in and out, Omni Bialo. That's unnecessarily not a scrub.

It's not a scrub, yeah. He's not a starter on a good team. But it's all going to fall on Cade now. I think you're going to, like I said earlier in this episode, I think you're going to see this pattern of teams just throwing everything they've got at Cade him making other teams beat them. Yeah. And I think that's going to be rough.

It's going to be like another, I think it's going to hurt his stats and probably his rookie of the year campaign. That's kind of like the big thing that I think. Well, on the flip side, though, on the other hand of that argument, it's like, he'll have to learn. Sorry? He'll have to learn. Well, that's what I was, that's literally what I was going to say was that it's like

that the grant's absence has created such a vacuum of field goal attempts in productions. It's like, yeah, Kade's got to be the man of the house. He really does. and like he was the number one overall pick. So if you can't handle a few double teams, what are we doing? Like I know that's tough to ask of a 20 year old, but like you were billed as the best prospect to come out of the draft in two, three years.

And that's very hefty praise. So right now your team needs you, your city needs you. You got to step up. Tonight a little rough in the scoring department, but the game prior, he was really good. So I don't think, while I do agree with you, Tommy, there's going to be a pattern of teams throwing abs. everything in the kitchen sink at Cade to stop him.

Learn from it. Trial by fire, figure it out. If he can't figure it out, then he doesn't deserve rookie of the year, quite honestly. Like, I mean,

Mobley has been really, really good. And as the three of us have pointed out, he's in a much better situation than Kate is. That being said, Mowbly has dealt with adversity in the, in the idea that teams have to game plan for him. You know,

they're not just leaving him to just score wide open dunk after wide open dunk. Like, I've caught a couple of calves games. defense is key in on him, he scores anyway because he's a phenomenal player. So if Cade can't out play him, he doesn't deserve rookie of the year, and he's being given an opportunity to show why he was the number one overall pick. Yeah, I mean, Jared Allen and what's his name, Darius Garland, like, they're playing exceptionally.

You've watched them, you've seen it. But, yeah, no, this is a really big ask for any, like, good player. Like, you throw an all-star on a team, or you put an all-star in. Cade's position, they're still going to struggle. No, for sure. Everybody's going to be game planning Cade hard. Because there's just, I mean, we really did play a lineup where Savanley, Hamedo Diallo, Isaiah Stewart, that's three non-floor spacers next to Cade.

And the thing that you want to give Cade is floor spacing. So there are going to be some rough edits or some rough times ahead for the foreseeable future. Yeah, I agree with you about Mobley. He's in a drastically better situation. I don't feel quite as bad about the rough time, so to speak. I think, I guess we'll see. But I think Kate is a player who's proven that he can adjust pretty quickly and improve pretty quickly. Very cerebral and very horrible.

Yeah, tonight was Oklahoma State all over again. Yeah, but even still, 11 assists, right? It's like he finds ways to be impactful even when he's phased out of portions of the game. And that's just a tremendous, tremendous sign. And it's like, yeah, tonight was the scoring that took a hit, but maybe another night. It's another facet of his game that takes a hit. Either way, we need him to continue to be impactful and productive in some way,

whether he's facing double or triple teams, whether he's facing the kitchen sink being thrown at him. He's got to figure it out. And I feel like he can. For sure. It's worth noting also. I mean, just Kate as a player, you can depend upon the team just being better. He's on the court. But we know that already.

Number two, ignoring talent differences, which player archetype from recent drafts, would you most like to pair with Cade going forward? For example, Moby type and Aten type or a Mello type. Tommy was going to say you're the big draft guy, but any of us can answer this. But why don't you go first anyway? Out of those three options, just because they're the first ones that come to mind, I think Aiton with a jump shot next to Cade would be a fantastic player. I'm not sold on.

This is something that I've been like trying to think about recently. Like do you really want your center to be like purely on the perimeter like in a five out offense? No. I don't think that that's something that you. you should always want. I think you want a guy who's like, he has interior presence and he is fighting for boards because I do think rebounding and just altering shots and having that interior presence is important. But if you do want to create driving lanes, having a guy who can space out to the perimeter and then open up the paint, that is a huge advantage for sure. Somebody dynamic

like that. Now, Aiton is a great center, but I don't know if his mid-range has come along. So this is really more of a wish list than like a tangible thing. And then Mowgli, he's been a power forward this season. So I know he sounds like what I should be saying, but I don't know if he's like a great option as a five right now because I don't know if the physicality and the interior presence is there. I think he's been great in his role as like a power forward, which I did not expect at all. And that's that's kind of the concern for me.

So right now I think the biggest thing that we need other than shooting obviously would be like a great other half of a pick and roll for Cade Cunningham because you can see it. He wants to throw lobs and he's getting into the paint. He's getting to his spots without issue. If you take away the guys who are both committing to him on a pick and roll and you make one of those guys stick to a vertical lob threat, the pick and roll just got that much deadlier. So that's what I'm looking for right now. Yeah.

Just give me someone tall, man, honestly. Just give me someone tall. Somebody who's tall? Yeah. Yeah, the archetype is tall. You know, the archetype is big. Like somebody who can rebound the basketball, somebody who can play above the rim, somebody who can catch a lob, somebody who's athletic.

And honestly, that sounds like a lot of traits, sounds like I'm asking a lot, but I'm really not, especially towards the top of the draft. I feel like there are a number of guys in this year's class who could sort of fill that archetype, who could step into that role on this team and really make a positive impact. Now, I don't know if there's anybody that will be in a position to select who can make that Mowbly type of impact, but it's exactly what you said, Tommy, the other half of the pick and roll, given Cade's prowess out of that set there is just so essential if we want to improve as a team and like, yeah, somebody big, please, for the love of God, draft somebody tall.

That's all I'm asking, and I don't ask for much in this life. I really don't, so. Yeah, we could just as easily address that in free agency if we wanted to. Oh, that's true. That's true. Yeah, so I wouldn't draft specifically for the. that fit. But yeah, I don't think there's really only one guy of that archetype, like the one that I described. I think that's Jayland Duren. And he's not even top five on my board right now, just to be

clear. Like, it's not that I think that we should draft specifically for that role. We should definitely try to take the best fit. But yeah, no, there's not a ton of those guys in this draft, so I wouldn't look to just address that straight through the jury. I think that, I mean, if it comes to talent, I don't I think you can turn down a guy like Mobley, of course. And if you have to play him at power forward and just get yourself like a decent floor spacing center, you can maybe do some rim protection, like if Stewart is able to make himself a good jump shooter, and you just go with the Milwaukee model where you have your power forward rolling to the basket, and you just have a center who can shoot.

I mean, if you can get a guy as talented as Mobley, obviously, you know, there aren't, you can say about a Mobley type. I mean, who else in the league right now is really quite like him, even at this early stage of his career with his ability to impact a defense in all sorts of ways. Obviously, he can catch Wabs and score in the interior, and he's done a decent job at shooting threes. He's the player from the draft class likely to be as good as Kade, though in a different way, because I don't think he'll ever be an offensive initiator. So, yeah, if you have that guy and you're confident in his health, of course, and that's my main misgiving about Mobley.

Obviously, I was like, can he play center? That would be his ideal position. he's doing fine, to say the least, at the forward positions. But the thing with Aiton, Aitin type of player, good, but not elite defender, can't shoot threes. Mid-range is not enough to space the four. I mean, it's just, and it's very unlikely that somebody's going to be efficient from there. Very few players can.

Also, when it comes to, I know that's, that's, there's, you know, there's thoughts. Can we get Aiton and pre-agency? I would say no. If he takes enough of a dump, that the Phoenix doesn't pay him, which, seems highly unlikely at this point, then you probably don't want him. And even then, you give him a submax offer. And they just might match. So that's teams who have restricted rights have so much control.

Yeah. When I answered with Aiton, it was really more of a wish list. And like, this is the baseline. And then you added a few more features. Because really, when I'm thinking about centers, it's like you want a guy who can space the floor, but you're trying to balance that with the benefits of a physical interior guy. And then as far as if you're trying to find another Mobley in this class, I don't think that there is one.

The closest right now would probably be Chet Holmgren, who's able to alter a lot of shots, but he's struggling so far this year to shoot. But he's doing a lot of good things around. No one near his athletic either. Sorry to interrupt. Just nowhere near his athletic as Mobley. Yeah, that's true.

He's definitely not, he doesn't have the perimeter defense, but he's still a very, very good player. I think he will play his way back into like that top two by the end of the season. It's also a twig right now. and that's a concern when you're that thing can you put on enough weight? Because I think center would still be his ideal position. But can you put on enough weight that you're just not going to get completely

just blasted by guys who are way stronger than you are? Isn't he less than 200 pounds? He's, I think, 195 right now. Yeah, crazy. It is high. But, like, I don't know, a bit of a, it's been a while since we've tossed around unicorn, but, like, just reminds me a little bit of Chris tops, I guess, just sort of like, I don't know.

I've been a big fan of chat. And I think I tend to agree with Tommy that I, yeah. A bit of a shooting slump, but I think he can sort of play himself back into that top two. And I wouldn't be surprised if Weaver takes a good long look at him. I could really see that. And maybe that is the other half of the pick and roll that we've been looking for. I don't know.

I don't know about that. I don't know about it either. We'll see, though. We'll see. Yeah. The entry with Chet is really more of the skill set that he has with the ball in his hands. Yeah. Because he can move the ball really well.

He can see over the defense and he has great instincts. And he alters a lot of shots. And then around the red, he's so tall and so long. he can finish over pretty much anybody, at least at the college level. The NBA, that's like the big concern. We're going to be doing plenty of talk about the draft, though, in other months. I think we'll save her for that. So next question, how is Garza take advantage of his minutes?

And does he deserve to take some playing time from Lyles? Should Lyles be moved to playing his true power forward spot and Garza to take advantage to the missing size of the center? So I know that Dante have a lot to say about Garza, but I'll just take a shot at this. Has Garza taken advantage of his minutes? he hasn't gotten many minutes. Here's my opinion about Garza. If he's going to be a positive value player in the NBA,

he has to be able to shoot from everywhere. That means that when any space is given to him in the mid-range, he has to be able to shoot that and shoot it well. He needs to be able to shoot the three. I don't think he'll ever be a good role man, just because he's very slow and can't jump. He's got the worst vertical of any player on this team, and this team does not have good vertical players.

So would I give him some playing time in space of Wiles? Yes. Wiles is pretty bad as a center. and Garza, whatever. If you play him right, if he can make those shots, and if you can take advantage of not, if the fact that the defense can't give him any space to do some passing, you stand a decent shot at making it worthwhile to give him minutes.

Should Wiles be moved back to power forward? I don't like Wiles. I think, I mean, he's not athletic. He's not a good defender. He makes bad decisions. He did well tonight, for example, a drive-in on the net, but a lot of the time when he decides to attack a close-out,

it doesn't go well. He doesn't pass. I don't like Lyles, but he's barely paid above the minimum. And I think he'll be gone next season. Yeah. So yeah, for now, would I give that to Garza? Yes. I mean, honestly, I would have said differently earlier in the season,

but the wait the season is gone. I mean, just give him the chance. I'd say yes. If my life goes drastically off course and I do some bad stuff and I end up going to hell, my personal hell will be watching an endless replay. of repeats of Tray Lyle's pump faking open threes and then driving into the lane because I he's so bad. Tray Lyle sucks man like and I know that he's not making a lot but he still sucks.

He just sucks. Power forward center doesn't matter. He sucks. And like, listen, Garza is not a perfect player. You don't win college player of the year and then go so late in the draft if you don't have very critical flaws in your game. We all know this. We all understand Garza's physical limitations, but I think what's really important to consider

and what I think blends very well with the culture that we're trying to establish here is like Garza plays his ass off, man. Like every time he's on the floor, he looks like his face gets progressively more disfigured. Have you guys noticed that? Like he's always wearing bandages. He's got a fat lip, a black eye. He's bleeding. It's like, man, this guy's just giving his heart and soul for every minute he's on the court.

and Liles just looks like he doesn't care. I don't know if he just got that resting face. He just looks like an uninterested joiner Lucas. If you know what Joyner Lucas looks like, he looks like an uninterested Joyner Lucas to me. And like as far as playstyle is concerned, Garza theoretically, you know, is a, like a decent enough playmaker from that spot. He's got some good vision.

And I think a lot of that stems from him being such a focal point in college. Like he was forced to contend with defenses throwing things at him. And then he would have to dish out to the, open guy from the low post and he does a decent job at that. He hasn't shot the three ball particularly well, but I mean, we spoke to his dad about how rigorous his three-point shooting training is. And I do have confidence that he can at bare minimum be a league average three-point shooter. And, you know, he may very well end up being a decent to good to great three-point shooter

from the five. And just on the boards, he's tall. I'm not saying he's got a crazy vertical, but we are so sorely lacking in all. vertical. Terrible. Terrible, but he's tall, right? And it's like,

Isaiah Stewart has a terrible vertical too. And he's not nearly as bad. Not nearly as bad, but he's still short. And it's like Garza, he's just starting from a higher point. He, to me,

whether he has a poor vertical or not, he seems to make an impact rebounding the basketball. And yeah, his perimeter defense is god awful. But sometimes he can bother shots on the weight of the basket. And really,

like, Lyles is not an all-world defender either. So I just don't understand why you wouldn't give Garza those. minutes. I've had enough at Trey Liles. I don't know what you feel about this, Tommy, but like, I've had enough of Liles, regardless of what he makes. I would just rather give all those minutes to Luca. I think it depends on the matchup. Like tonight, it was against Dwayne Dedman and then I think on the Miami heat broadcast, they said it was like a guy who'd played like, it was like a second NBA game or something like that. And if you're not playing against a mobile center or,

you know, a small ball five, yeah, maybe Luka can play. But, yeah, maybe Luka can play. But, but it has to be a guy where he's like battling the paint and it has to be done on the ground because Luca like you said like his vertical is awful. Yeah. But otherwise like you can't do it. Like I know Lyles is bad and he's like hard to watch at times. And Lyles is not the most mobile guy himself either and he's not a great vertical piece. But he's more mobile than Luca and he's less likely to be abused as like an individual

matchup than Luke is against a mobile five. And a lot of fives are mobile these days. so it's matchup dependent for me. Luca's earned himself more playing time. I'll give you that. He's been a little better than I thought he'd be. But he's, it's, and then it's, it's Lyle's playing out of position too.

We are just so bad right now in the front court. It's, it's hard to say, like, it's hard for me to be like, no, Lyle should be the guy getting those minutes at the five, but it's just because the other option is Luca, and he is so matchup dependent. Should it matter. Right now it doesn't matter. To me it does because Luke against the rockets, for example, in the clutch,

Luca got burned for two straight possessions. One, he just pulled them out a little bit and then drove straight in on him. It's something that we saw him do a lot of here on the pistons, but it's just, it's gravy for Christian Wood. And then he pulled him out to the three-point line and he drilled the three in his face. And that is the problem with Luca Garza. It happens. How do you stop that if somebody shoots a three in your face? I mean, unless you got incredibly long arms.

Like Garza, he was still like moving towards Christian Wood when Christian Wood took that shot. At least it was high. I don't know if that's like that's like that's the thing. It wasn't even contested. Like he was still moving towards it. Maybe I remember moving wrong. Yeah, he can't defend in space. But what do you say if he does get, if he does prove himself able to shoot the three of 40%, for example,

and shoot the mid range of 50% and do some playmaking as a result because then you got to start them. Not start. I'm sorry. Not start them. Sorry, you got to play them over Lyles. Yeah, I would,

yeah, I would, I just, I mean. If he could be like a trailer three point shooter and just space the floor 40% on volume, yeah, maybe.

But we're doing this team rebounding thing. Yeah, and the more he plays, the more disfigured his face is going to be, he's going to be wearing a Jason mask by the end of the scene. Yeah, this is his Joker backstory. Yeah,

but I'm not even, do you get, like, every time he's on the court, he's progressively more and more beat up. Like, that guy bangs in the low post, man.

Like he plays hard and on a team as bad as this with as many problems as we have and as as tough as it must be to stay motivated, I really appreciate the passion and the grit that he plays with. Honestly, like I know that's a small thing. Might not be indicative of like future grandiose success, but I appreciate it. And I would rather watch that. No, you're absolutely right. Yeah.

Yeah. And on the bench, do you see him cheering? Oh, he goes nice. Like he is so into it. Yeah, he's a great guy out of now. He's like such a good presence on the bench. Mm-hmm. I appreciate him for that.

at the very least. Like, he's, that is valuable. Yeah, I would say, I just have a lower opinion of Lyles than you do. And you might not see too much to drop. Not lower than me. You might not see too much of a drop. Yeah, but, you know, give, give him, give him significant minutes for a couple of games and see how it goes. And if it's a nightmare, you can always yank him and put Lyles back in his place.

I just, I just, I'm not at the point where it's like, oh, you have nothing to lose because you don't want to put out a joke of a product. but at this point it's kind of like why not. All right, you ready to move on to the next question? Yeah, isn't there just one more? I think there's one more left. There are two more. They're going to be short, I think. What happens to Grant if we draft Buncher or a chat?

I don't think Grant will be on the team at the time of the draft. That's my answer too, same. Tommy. I think Grant would just slide to the small forward at that point if he's still on the team. What, and bench. Yeah, but you bench the deep in that case. Yeah, I don't think Grant will be on the team, though. Yeah.

All right. And the final one, do you think as Kate gets better in defense his game plan for him? We really struggle with double teams. Appreciate the question. You'll probably notice that we've addressed it already. But just to reiterate, yes, I think he'll struggle. I also think that he'll learn from it and eventually be able to persevere through it. Tommy, any thoughts?

Yeah, no, that's really. I mean, it really has more to do with the fact that there are no options on the perimeter right now at times, but that's it. Like, Kate is going to, he definitely is aware of like his teammates' strengths and weakness. I know he's not going to pass it to somebody he knows isn't going to convert. So that's probably going to be it. He's going to take some tough shots and he's going to miss some of them, but I don't think it's going to hurt his development. If anything, like you guys have alluded to, maybe it strengthens it.

Yeah, I'd say ultimately he has the brains, the skill. And ultimately, also as he puts on more strength, just the body to do more things. And I think ultimately, you know, if it goes as hoped, I think he's a player who could have no real discernible weaknesses, this, you know, beyond just some, some not necessarily important athletic limitations. Definitely agree with that. You don't, yeah, you don't need Cade to be skying in for, for Allioops or anything like that. So, yeah, I think that's, he's a player who is going to be capable of, I mean, you'd be great if he were hyper athletic, but I think even just in his current form,

he's a player who, when he's fully developed, is, you know, could really play in any situation and do well. Yeah, as Cade currently is, I'd say he's equipped to deal with just about anything, maybe not excel in every single situation, but I think he can deal with everything as he improves, you know, as he rounds into the player that I think that we all sort of know that he can become, he can pretty much excel in any situation. So like, yeah, a player with no discernible weaknesses sounds like a future MVP candidate to me. Yeah, I think he might struggle. I mean, this is, if he's going to struggle, this is the season in which this is the season for

him to do it. And I think you will see some struggles, especially because as Tommy said, has very little one way of options, but I think it'll be growing experience for him, and I think they'll still continue to contribute positively. All right, any final thoughts. Hopefully we don't have any more long, long losing streaks. I don't want to break that record this season. Yeah, imagine snapping the streak right before we set the franchise record, and then we break the franchise record with a streak right after this.

That would be, I'm just not emotionally in that place to deal with that. I think us talking about it is jinx. it and preventing it from happening. Yeah, let's end the episode. Yeah, let's end it. Yeah, sure. I mean, just a final note, that's worth saying.

The process, those tanks were based upon the old watery odds that gave you the best chance of getting the number one overall pick if you were the worst team. At this point, if the business were to finish last, they would have the same odds. The top three teams, all of the same odds at a top three pick. And it would just guarantee them at worst, the number five pick.

Okay. well, that'll be it for this episode. As always, folks, thanks for listening, and we will catch you in the next episode.