Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 80: Is the Season Going as Planned?

Episode Date: January 11, 2022

This episode discusses Inside the NBA's shots at the Pistons, debates whether or not the season is going according to plan in any capacity, talks Killian Hayes's struggles and the recent successes of Saddiq Bey and Hamidou Diallo, and briefly recaps the trade which brought Bol Bol to Detroit. 

Welcome back, everybody to Drive into the Basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike, joined as always by Dante and Tommy. Fellas, how you doing? It's been a while since the three of us recorded. And the longer, actually, since we spoke about the Pistons. And I just an episode about the draft. That's been a little bit, eh? Yeah, it has been a while.

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm excited to me back. Yeah. So we got a lot to talk about today. The first topic we can cover. and actually we're adding this in post-production because it happened the day after we recorded the episode. This one's just going to be Dante and I. Tommy had a really busy day and we wanted to get this segment out prior to releasing the episode tomorrow. Besides, he's really the same mind as the two of us.

So Dante, I know you have a lot to say about this. Why don't you tell us your thoughts? Pistons shook up the NBA trading Rodney Magruder and a 2022 second round pick via the Brooklyn Nets to the Denver Nuggets in exchange for everyone's favorite. 2K my league player, Bull Bull. So Bull, obviously someone who leading up to that 2019 draft

was viewed as having intriguing physical potential, some intriguing skill-based upside because typically you don't see players with that height and length have that sort of skill with the basketball, right? So this is someone who is viewed

as potentially being a top 10 or 15 talent if I'm remembering correctly, but unfortunately slid into the second round, actually 44th overall, in fact. to the Denver Nuggets and up to this point in his career, he hasn't quite cracked a very competitive Nuggets rotation, obviously them being a player in the Western Conference. So I think a good move.

Obviously, Rodney Magruder was a decent veteran to have a round, but he's not doing much for you. And that second round pick belongs to Brooklyn. That's unlikely to be really a meaningful asset. So you're not giving up too much here in exchange for a guy who provides something that the other players on this roster just don't. And that's incredible size. This is someone who probably can just reach above the basket standing flat footed, right? So you'd assume he adds a different dimension as a rebounder as an above the rim player.

It's a flyer, though. It's a flyer, right? If he was such a great player, if he was someone that the Bull Bull Bull Meemers thought that he was, he probably would have garnered more playing time in Denver. But you never know, right? He certainly is not the first. Denver Nugget who may not have been playing the exact role that he was capable of playing to come on through to Detroit in recent years. So maybe this is someone who you take a swing on and maybe you hit. But even if you don't, you really didn't give up to too much. So overall, I personally would give this to trade two thumbs up.

But yeah, you got to kind of wonder what does this mean for the Luca Garza's and Trey Liles of the world. Does this affect the rotation in any meaningful way? that of course remains to be seen. I don't expect to see Bull Bull playing in this upcoming game and I believe it's tomorrow. Game after that,

I do expect bowl to play. So overall, I guess it remains to be seen how this is going to work out, but I personally am a fan of the trade. Yeah, I completely agree with you. This is entirely a virtually no-cost flyer on a potential talent.

The sort of thing you want to do is a rebuilding team. The cost, Roddy McGruder, who was re-signed to the pit, by all accounts, simply because he was a well-liked weeder in the locker room. By the way, had to approve this trade. He had, due to a mechanic at the CBA, a de facto no trade clause built into his contract. So my guess is that he either just approved it to be a team player or, I'd say more likely because he was given assurances by the Nuggets that he wouldn't be waived.

So McGruder and the Nets 22 second round pick, which will probably fall in the almost certainly fall in the 50s. Your hit rate on picks in the 50s is maybe 10%. That is the percentage of them who actually end up sticking in the NBA. So as far as what Bobo will offer, well, in the first place to the Pistons, he'll stick out because he is a player who is both tall and able to jump. We've made a lot of the lack of vertical spacing on this team. So we'll serve as a lob threat. That has demonstrated some ability to stretch the floor. His interest, interior defense really remains to be seen. He did not play many minutes for the Nuggets. Nant to you pointed out that they had a pretty stacked rotation. He just wasn't able to break in there.

So he might provide something. He might not. This is basically a trial period before he becomes a free agent, which is in the upcoming offseason, though he has a restricted free agent. As far as ramifications for the rotation, I don't think that there will be much in the way of those. Trey Wiles has really established himself as an entrenched member of the rotation, Dwayne Casey clearly likes him quite a bit. I don't see that he's going to lose many minutes, if at all. You've also got Kelly Olinick returning at some point in the near future, and that more or less pushes Garza out of the rotation entirely. Won't leave many minutes for Bowl Bowl.

Where I think he will probably get minutes is down the stretch of the season, when if, and I think this is likely as last season, the Pistons are really trying to hard tank down the stretch in order to get the best water, odds they can and they start sitting the veterans. I think that is the likeliest time at which ball will get his run or if there are other injuries, but we'll see. But I would be pretty surprised to see him get any sort of significant minutes out of the gate. But whatever the case, I approve the trade. Again, if you can get to low cost,

or very low cost, as in this case, flyer on potentially good talents, then that's a good idea. All right. So, I'm going to launch into right now just a hot topic, which is the Pistons actually got a mention on Inside the NBA, for those of you who watched that show. Really entertaining. Some good analysis sometimes, but mostly just really, really entertaining. You guys have great chemistry. Some of them had some nuts and so nice things to say about the Pistons. I know Tommy, this is a particularly hot topic for you.

So I want you to share your thoughts. Give us some backgrounds. I know you didn't feel too good about what we're saying. Yeah, so for a background, yeah, this was straight after the Pistons 30 point loss to Memphis. And right after, it's Kenny and Charles and mainly those two guys. We're just kind of clowning the Pistons effort level against Memphis. And it just didn't sit well with me. And we're not the show that likes to just kind of gas up the Pistons.

We don't put a positive spin on things even if we don't feel like it's true. I think in general we're very honest and you know we kind of speak our minds to say the yeah and I hope people trust us when we say that like it's just not true you know Kenny was Kenny went straight into like no the Pistons just didn't play hard at all and I don't understand why like the matchup was not good just to start there Memphis has a dominant front court it's Brandon Clark on on Sadiq Bay and then oh not Brandon Clark it's uh jaron Jackson yeah and then Stephen Adams and Brandon Clark. That's a very athletic, very strong front court. And then John Morant. Like, they scored 70 in the paint against us. And I get that. Like, the 30 point loss doesn't look good. But Kenny went straight into this monologue about you got to play harder. You got to be willing to get dunked on. You got to beat them down the floor. And it just didn't sit well with me because for all the things that have gone wrong this season, effort level from the team has not been in criticism. It's not in a talking point all year because it hasn't been a problem.

For all the negative things that we have to say about Coach Dwayne Casey, I don't think that not getting his guys in the right mentality to compete is one of them. And then people were even criticizing Weaver for this one. And Troy Weaver, one of the biggest things we even mentioned in on the show last week is that he's very much about drafting the right personalities. And a huge part of that is guys who are willing to work hard. So that has carried into this roster. You know, this team is not good.

The roster is not good. They have a lot of problems, but effort level has never been one of them. And it really bothered me that Kenny, who undoubtedly does not watch the Pistons, I don't think any of the inside the NBA guys do. And Shaq, I will credit him because he started to just talk about like, they're not talented, which is something that we've said all here. That's the problem. That is ultimately the problem, not the effort level.

So that really just did not sit well with me. I would say it was kind of a know-at-all statement. I don't blame these guys if they're not watching the Pistons. I mean, the Pistons, you say what you will about them. I mean, they have been one of the lowest draws in the league for a long time, and for good reason. And I haven't been exciting to watch. And for those analysts, whose job it is to really be up primarily, I mean, and inside the NBA, these guys are, again, it's an entertainment show.

I mean, these guys have played a lot of basketball. I mean, between Shaq, Barclay and Kenny Smith. played a lot of basketball, getting the X, and X is a nose, but they're not going to keep up in a team like the Pistons. And, yeah, it was unfortunate. You see a guy like Kenny Smith, who is really just watching one game and drawing conclusions based on that. It is worth noting that this was the Pistons, third game in four nights. They were playing in the second night of a back-to-back, and they were playing away. So I think there was some fatigue there.

They were also just incredibly outmatched. Like, between, you know, John Morant, yeah, you talk about the front court. I think it's just got really, I don't know. know any other way to put it. They just got walked over. It's true. Charles Berkeley talked about. It's just largely how the team isn't competing. I don't know if he meant competing, but just they aren't playing well. And that's, there's no doubt that they aren't playing well, whatever it is. I know it's, it can be tempting to just lay it down to, okay, this team just isn't competing hard enough. They're not playing hard enough. I don't think that compete level has been an issue

with this team. I think it's been much less of an issue that it has been with Piston's teams past, certainly. And yeah, I think that no amount of compete is going to make a team that has the roster problems this team has and has the coaching problems this team has into a team that is going to play respectively. Yeah. I don't want a monologue at length about it, but it's like there are major issues with the roster. I know that the three of us have some differences in opinion as to what brought those about, you know, like why the pistons have too little athleticism, nobody who can play above

the rim and so on and so forth. But also like the team has shot terribly, a team has been missing players. A team is not coached well. It just, I think it just boils down to that it's not pleasant. It's not very pleasant to watch the team. But I don't think that there's, that blaming the players' work ethic is merited. I don't think that's fair. Yeah.

No, I mean, I think you have to, too, really consider that, listen, I hope this doesn't come across pompous or elitist or gatekeeping or whatever. But if you're listening to this podcast shows like inside the NBA, like your first takes, you're calling cowards, stuff like that. that those are not really targeted at fans who are deeply invested in their team, right? Like nobody is watching first take or inside the NBA to hear Charles Barkley analyze the lack of vertical spacing for a reason why the pistons are just not competitive night at and night out. It's an entertainment show. Like you guys have said, it's for your fans who like basketball and just want to casually follow what's going on. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But if you're looking to these programs to give you like an educated take or an all-encompassing,

like a really profound take on what is going on with each and every organization, it's just that's asking a bit too much of them. You know, there are guys who cover the NBA for their career. And guys like Zach Lowe, we've been heavy on the Zach Lowe praise on this show for a long time. And that's a guy who lives and breathes NBA basketball. I would imagine that Shaquille O'Neal's got some other stuff going on.

I think he'd rather probably do another. Kia commercial than watch Jamarco picket on the pistons, right? It's like you just can't expect these guys to really know what the true issues or what the true strengths of a team are. It's just a casual overview. And if those takes are uneducated, those takes are uneducated. But yeah, Tommy, you put it right, I think. There are a lot of problems with this team.

Now, the degree to which there are problems and whose fault those problems are, that's something we're going to get into a little bit later. But the compete level, you know, how hard the guys actually play. I wouldn't say that that's a leading issue at all. I'd say it's one of the most, it's one of the strengths of the team, honestly, for as critical as we are of Casey, his guys do like them generally, for the most part. He does get them to play hard. He does get them to buy into a theoretically good culture.

Do I think that they go balls to the wall every single play? Not really. No, I don't think they're a hyper-competitive team. I do see a little bit of pouting sometimes. I think I saw Cade against Memphis really get frustrated. for the first time and I don't blame him, there is some sulking sometimes. But for the most part, like, let's call it 90 to 95% of the time, the Pistons play hard. Their effort level is not why they're losing.

So just remember that when you're watching, you know, and inside the NBA. Yeah. And I got to say, I know they're not going to hear this and they're not going to be offended by it, but I love inside the NBA. No, they're listening. They're actually huge. It's a great show. They were considering bringing you on as the fifth co-host.

but that's over now. I was going to cover for Chuck one of these nights. Yeah, no. Now they're going to expand it to five. I mean, we're going to have five. Oh, wow. Oh, dang, I just blew it. Okay.

Well, then I guess I don't really have to worry about a. Yeah, no filter. Just go for it. Yeah. Well, Shaq even tried to say, like, they don't have a one-two punch, which is to say they're not talented. And as good as we think Kate is, he really has to work really hard, especially since Jeremy Grant has been out.

That's something that we even said was going to happen. Teams are going to hone in on him because there just isn't talent around him that you have to focus too hard on. You see it when not just Cated, when a lot of guys take it and even just try to take it into the paint. Usually two guys will collapse inside because you don't have to worry about it. A lot of times our roster is playing two to three guys who can't space the floor at all. It's the reason that we are, I think currently 29th in the league in three-point shooting, where I think we're like 31%, which is pitiful. you're not going to win games that way, especially when league average is 35, 36%. There are guys who have regressed.

That's probably more of a problem to me. And it wasn't mentioned. It was just this team's effort is laughable. And that's just not the case. Well, you've got to remember, too, though, like your Chuck and Shaq and these guys, they came up during a time where the pistons were a dominant force. And for the better part of 15 years, they've just been pretty much been the laughing stock of the NBA. So really, Shaq was drafted in 94.

He did play against going to work pistons. But yeah, Barclay really. You could say that he blew up while the Pistons were, you know what I mean? He probably was growing up in basketball while the park. Barkley played against them. Shaq watched them, you know, as he ascended into the NBA player that he would eventually become, right? So these guys know that the Pistons are a historic franchise.

And it probably hurts them a little bit to see us getting blown out all the time. they probably feel like a sense of pride or a sense of nostalgia for that time when Detroit was on top of the NBA figuratively and literally. So it's like they see something like that. They see scores like the Memphis score and it's probably shocking to them. Should it be shocking? No, they've been bad for 15 years. I don't think that this is something that should be new to anybody.

But that's probably an aspect of it too is that this once great organization in their eyes has been just it's been the age of darkness. It's been Thor the Dark World for like 15 years. Yeah. Yeah. And this team has probably one of the strongest identities in the whole NBA. Like Detroit is synonymous with defense. It probably does hurt them a little bit.

Yeah. Or it's just like irritating, especially when, especially for like old heads, like basketball purists, they love defense. That's exactly what they want to see. So yeah, it probably does suck. And maybe they just don't appreciate that. Yeah. I don't know.

On their side, though. yeah, I would just basically just treat the inside the NBA for what it is, which is it's an entertainment program. Yeah, it's, it's entertainment, but it's also, you're not going to get good analysis about a team, which is not in the spotlight, not in the limelight, and it's not a intended and hasn't been for a very long time. Hopefully the pistons will be good in the not so distant future. And then maybe the average analyst on a show like that will know a lot more about the team,

though at the same time, I don't think anybody should really care if I'm being completely be honest. No, it doesn't affect anything. Yeah, I think, I think it's nice to get, it's nice when your team gets, gets plugged and praised on the national media at the same time. I mean, you're a fan of the team because you like the team. You don't, you know, need outsiders, so to speak, you don't need analysts to be plugging the team for you to be a fan of a team. No, certainly not. Yeah, but on, you know, really on that subject of how the Pistons have been playing comes on to a next topic we want to discuss. As far as just how the season has gone so far. And geez, how do we put this? Like,

Is it going according to plan in any capacity? Like is how the Pistons have played, obviously, the injuries and the COVID absences and whatnot. And the regressions, that's not according to plan. But, like, is how the season is going serving some purpose. I really feel like we're going to talk about something more definite here. But it's kind of just expanded into more of a general topic. Like, obviously a lot has gone wrong. but we have Tommy for example

you are perfectly fine with everything it's going wrong because it means the pistons have a greater chance of getting another high pick and Dante you are less fine with it because you think it's not intentional and that there are negatives to it I fall kind of somewhere in the middle I'm fine with the team being bad

while it is well managed and well coached and bad that's fine with me it doesn't silly sit quite as well with me when the team is bad because it is being coached poorly, or not because, but when bad coaching is part of that and some management mistakes are part of that. So I guess it really depends on what according to plan. The definition of that is different for everybody here.

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. We've been going back and forth on this over the course of the past few days. Dante, I think you're more aligned with the general fan base and just in the way that people have been reacting to the way things have been going. So why don't you talk about the way you think things should be going? or maybe just like your grievances with the way the coaching or the front office have gone about

things. Yeah, yeah. I'll try and put this as succinctly as possible. I don't think it's by design and I don't think it's okay that we're substantially worse than last year. I think that is the telltale sign that something or a number of things have gone cataclysmically wrong. And there really is no excuse for a team that got the number one overall pitch.

for a team that's signed a couple of quote unquote key free agents to be substantially worse than last year. I just don't, that logic just doesn't make sense in my head. And I'll tell you what I mean. So look no further than right down the road, right? The Detroit Lions, the Detroit Lions are going to be picking either first or second in the draft this year. They're going to have either the worst or the second worst record.

Nobody's making fun of the Lions because as far as the general NFL landscape can tell, they compete hard each and every game. They've pulled off a number of crazy upset. Oh, sorry, I have to interrupt you here. Nobody's making fun of the lions because the lions are a joke and they've been a joke for a long run. Well, see, that hurt me. That hurt my feeling.

I'm sorry to put it that way, but I think that's why nobody is clowning the lions for I mean, well, I would disagree a little bit. As someone who follows the team very, very closely, I know it's a cliched thing to say, oh, you know, this time it feels different. And trust me, we've gone through that cycle time and time again, not just with the lions across all Detroit sports. We absolutely have. But with the Lions, there was a great article by the Ringer that just came out. And it was the Detroit Lions or, it was something like the Detroit Lions are pulling off the perfect rebuild.

And it was eerily reminiscent of the Detroit Pistons of last year, the quote unquote, perfect rebuild, the quote unquote competitive tank. This idea that your young players could play, grow, improve in real time and still manage to be competitive. And I think the entire fan base was so optimistic to end last year that the, The fallback to earth here has been very shocking for a lot of people, and I don't blame them. So last year, you've got Hayes, you've got Bay, you've got Stuart, you've got Grant, all of these guys got better and better and better, well, with the exception of maybe Killian. These guys got better and better and better as the season went on and they were keeping games competitive and everybody was optimistic. And now this year, you know, the odd upset against Milwaukee aside, a lot of these games are over in the first quarter. Nobody wants to watch that.

That's a telltale sign that something is wrong. That's a sign that the team is poorly coached, that the roster is poorly constructed, that there's something from the top down that's rotten. Now, I'm not saying that we're in a hopeless situation. I'm not saying that I would rather go back to the mediocrity Stan Van Gundy years. What I am saying is that if you're getting blown out like 60, 70% of the time that you take the floor, something is wrong. And I know I want to let the other guys jump in.

I don't want a monologue too much, but this was my, Tommy alluded to this. We were going back and forth, and this has been a hot subject of debate, but we went back and we looked at the last 15 years worth of NBA champions. None of those organizations I would classify as teams who just kept getting high picks, developed the players that they picked, and just won a championship. None of them. Not one. Not one.

I think it requires a lot more than just picking high consistently in the draft to build a playoff contender to build a championship winning team. And I think the teams that are consistently picking at the top of the lottery, the pistons, the magic, the calves, those guys, don't hold a candle to the bucks, the raptors, the warriors, teams that built differently, teams that built without those high picks. So I just think something has gone wrong and I respect if you feel differently, but that's where I would initialize my stance. That I have to respond to.

Okay. Yeah, a lot of times bad teams are going to repeatedly be picking at the top of the draft. and that's because they're going to make mistakes. There are a lot of things within that what you just said that I would like to respond to. I'd like to go kind of break it down because Mike had something to say. But to that I have to say, like it's not necessarily that you have to pick high. You have to draft well. Totally agree.

Teams that have built teams within the draft, yeah, they haven't necessarily picked high. Steph Curry was picked seventh, Yonis Oetucon, picked 15th. DeMar de Rosen, who was eventually traded for Kauai Leonard. He was taken ninth, I believe. And then, yeah, mid first round. Yeah. And that's great. But the chances of finding superstar or generational talent midway, like let's, first of all,

it has to exist, which not every draft even has. Yeah. You know, that level of talent in it. But not only does it have to exist, other guys have to pass on it. And then you have to get it right. And I don't think a lot of these GMs are just like so good at drafting. like Denver's GM, they straight up admitted, like not so long ago that they just got lucky on Yokic. They had no idea.

They had no idea. And he's 42nd pick. I get that. But the idea is that when you rebuild and you tank, you commit to it, and then you build and you develop. And then when you shoot for like a target year or date, and you, at that point, you pivot into competing. You know, that's the benefit. you pick high, chances of getting all-stars and great players is significantly higher. If you want to try to build a team through the middle of the draft, which is what the Pistons functionally tried to do

in the last 12, 13 years before this draft, or before this current iteration of the team, well, I mean, I think that kind of answers its own, that kind of speaks for itself. It just doesn't work. You get middling talent, and you can't build with that. You need superstar talent. And it's, it blows my mind that it's even a discussion right now. We, just got Cade Cunningham number one overall. He's the best player that we've drafted in however long. You know, it works. You just have to commit to it. Yeah, Isaiah Thomas. He was, what, the second pick? Yes. Yeah. It's, I know. So when you say that you just need to draft, well, one, I mean, as someone who loves the draft, I just, I know the draft is a crapshoot. I'm pretty happy with

my takes and how some of my takes have aged out. I know that I'm not going to get it right. You just can't. Like the way that the NBA works, some guys develop and sometimes it's unpredictable, you know, even guys who I've really liked who have done well, like Bones Island and Iodosunmo, it's, you can't predict that accurately of who's going to do well and who's not going to do. So I think it's being overly, in my opinion, oversimplified in both directions, because there are other things that need to come into play. I mean, you, for example, you look at, like, Golden State is one team, which did kind of buck the mold in terms of drafting like three corps players, like their three core players of the worst championship team, which is Curry, Thompson,

and Green, of course. Though, granted, you look at that team and they beat the Cavaliers team that had only LeBron, because Kyrie and both out. And then they had Durant the next two championships. Whatever the case, like, things have to go right. Playing in a big market is really nice. So you can attract these superstars and free agency. Maybe you're the Raptors and you can take advantage to the availability of Kauai Wenard,

basically. Like, you have to, if you're not going to get these. superstars in the draft, then you have to have some other means of acquiring them. I mean, Kyrie, that was, excuse me, Kauai, that was just like an excellent opportunity brought on by the fact that Kauai was a giant douchebag who nuked his own trade value and basically forced the spurs to make a bad trade. So you look at the cavaliers, on the other hand. You want to talk about how that tanking didn't work?

Okay. Well, yeah, they got LeBron back. That was helpful, obviously. And a little known fact, probably. I mean, I don't know. Not necessarily a little known, but. whatever the case. Kyrie was actually a traded pick.

Like the Clippers made a really bad trade. Not that the Cavaliers weren't bad at that time, but that pick was originally owned by the Clippers. But there was a first overall pick. They traded two more first overall picks to get Kevin Love. So they, and then they brought back a guy whom they had drafted first overall. The fact that he was from Ohio was helpful. Yeah.

Yeah. So, I mean, it's just you have to take into account things like the Pistons are in Detroit. They are probably not going to attract big free agents. and just looking at champions alone, I don't think gets the entire picture across. No, it doesn't get the entire picture across, but I think it shows that there's a trend in the NBA. And the trend in the NBA is that picking high year after year after year in and of itself does not equate to a long-term winner. That's just, that's an objective reality. That's not a subjective opinion.

That's just the reality is that the teams that win championships take advantage of, you know, a Kauai Leonard situation, a Kevin. and love trade, you know, a Drew Holiday trade, moves that, you know, maybe the entire league won't agree with, moves that are maybe a little unorthodox, but there was certainly more into those titles or those deep playoff runs or whatever the case may be than picking high repeatedly. That's just a fact. It's not an opinion. It's a fact, right?

And so with the, I would even push back on what you said, Mike, about, you know, Detroit's not going to be a free agent destination. You know, typically really the free agency destinations you think of are the Lakers, the heat, you know, cities that are nice and hot and young socialites. like Ben Simmons can go hang out, go to clubs and stuff. I totally agree with that. I totally get it.

But Toronto, for as much as I hate the Raptors, and everybody who listens knows, I hate the Raptors, they're not a destination either. There's some geographical limitations that are at play there where players don't want to come to play in Canada. Well, what's the point?

I mean, Toronto, Toronto traded for Lowry. They traded for, excuse me, it traded for, they drafted DeRosen and traded him for Kauai. And they drafted pretty much the rest of their team. Yeah, exactly.

And that's what I'm talking about. There's a team that's equally as undesirable with Detroit. No, I think Toronto is not an undesirable free agent destination. Oh, I disagree. I don't think it is at all. I mean, you hear about, you hear all players talk about Toronto. I mean, the players there are nothing but great.

They love Toronto. Yeah, I don't. I don't think why I want to go there at all. I don't think why I wanted to be there. No, of course. Well, I think if the Clippers had not been an available destination, I think it would have stayed in Toronto. If he had not thought that there was a place to go.

I do not think you wanted to play with Lebron. I just don't think that's how Kauai was. I don't think he wanted to go to an existing super team. I think that if the Clippers, if they had not been able to make it work, he would have stayed in Toronto. But I've heard nothing but good things from players about Toronto, about the fan base, about the city. Yeah, it's a cool city.

Yeah, and I've heard nothing but good things about it. But even you look at Toronto in this situation, okay, do you think Toronto's going to win that? If we're talking just pure champions, you think Toronto's going to win that championship if Clay Thompson and Kevin Durant aren't out with injury? No, no, certainly not. But there's also a level of fortune. There's a level of fortune. you have to do benefit from to go on any kind of deep off run, really.

You know, an element of luck for sure. What are we even discussing here, though? I mean, are we discussing, like, basically, this comes back to, like, how the Pistons are doing this season. And what are you going to do to change how they're doing right now? I mean, you can call it disgraceful. The fact is, I mean, I know Tommy's okay with it because, I mean, it's a probable high pick.

You really don't like it because you think it's the product of an ineptitude. Yeah. And I'm kind of in the middle. Like, I think it's the product partially of ineptitude, partially of just very bad fortune. in terms of injuries and regressions and whatnot. But it's probably going to lead to a better result than the Pistons just battling to a better record with the team that probably doesn't have a long-term talent with sealing enough to do well. And I mean, if you're going to say, well, should we have a better draft pick or a worse draft pick or higher or lower, I'm going to say higher, it's not fun to watch, but a lot has gone wrong. Yeah.

But it comes down to like what don't we like that's happening. Like Casey is just a befuddlingly bad offensive coach. We all agree on that. And there's Casey has like a career. It's an entire career worth of data as far as just his flaws as an offensive coach. He's just he's bad at it. Yeah. And so you have that.

You have the fact that Troy Weaver, Tommy, I know you think that this was intentional, that he just nuke the team is rebounding for the sake of tanking. I think he just screwed up really. the fact that he has no above the rim players. I mean, that's not a way to tank a team. That's a way to just, I don't think that's good for anybody, not good for development, not good for anything. No.

I think he just screwed up the fact that seven out of his eight players, you could cut K out of the equation, and it's six out of seven players. These draft had been below average NBA athletes. You don't have to draft whivers. You don't have to draft Garza. You can go with guys who are a bit higher on the athletic scale. It's frustrating because the team is worse than it has to be

if it had a better coach, and if just some minor things, have been done differently now. That's the thing. That's the thing. And I want to make it clear. I hope maybe I'm not being clear enough, but I want to clarify,

I'm not asking them to start trading first round picks to pick up a win now guys to like push to be 500. You know, last year I was perfectly okay with the losses. At most points, I was rooting for the losses. But there's a difference between last year and this year. You know what I mean?

The guys were keeping it close. They were improving in real time. They looked like they cared. They looked competitive. That's the idea, right? That's the point that I'm trying to make here is that it's not necessarily that they're losing. It's the manner in which they're losing.

And the fact that Mike, you hit the nail on the head, I think it's the product of an aptitude. I don't think it's by design. I think it's because the roster has had some swings and misses. Killian Hayes comes to mind. I think the coach is terrible. And I think the players are just not synergetic right now. I think there's just been some befuddling decisions made that are leading to worse losses than need to actually occur. That's what I think.

And I think that that's pretty evident when you watch. I think there have been two big problems with the way that the roster has kind of shaken out in terms of performance statistically. One of them is three-point shooting and the other is rebounding. The rebounding, I wasn't going to bring this up because I know you guys think I'm insane for this one. But I don't think that Weaver just doesn't understand the value of rebounding. A year ago when we signed Plumlee and Okie for a lot of people. This was when we signed like six big men and everyone was like, geez, Troy Weaver, he really loves big guys. And he addressed me. He was like, yeah, no, I do. I really do like having a lot of centers. And I like having a strong interior presence. And one of the things that he said, which it's always stuck with me, was that the team that wins the rebounding battle usually wins the game. And it's, I struggle to think that the guy who said that, because that's not, that's not like a common thing that people say. And I struggled to think that the man who said that just doesn't understand the value of.

rebounding. Maybe they thought Stewart was going to be better than he was because I guess Stuart has probably underperformed this year. But his other, his backup center is Kelly Olinick, a guy who's a stretch five. I think what he tried to address this offseason that hasn't gone well is shooting. The Pistons are one of the worst three-point shooting teams in the league. Last year, they shot 35% and they were 21st in the league. This year, they are 29th or 30th throughout the whole season. I think that's why we're struggling so much harder. See, here's the thing. When it comes to Weaver, like this phrase keeps coming back to me like i'm a big fan of like the old simpsons where which is duffman says a lot of things it's like it's from uh i guess that's a little bit different

because in that situation duffman is just lying but it's basically you can say you can say you can say things and still not really follow through on them or not really make decisions on the basis of them you can say not execute them properly not execute them properly you can say i mean do you think that troy we were thought that kelly olinick was going to come in and be an impactful rebound? No, I think, but, but, but your argument here, which, which I know Dante and I strongly disagree with is that this is the way that he was going to make the team bad and ensure that it was going to lose. I mean, sure, you take away more rebounding, you add more shooting. I mean, if he really wants to make the team worse, that way, you don't just add the shooting in the process. You don't,

you don't pursue this plan by drafting a bunch of non-athletic players who are not really going to contribute very well on the rebounding end of things. Yeah. I mean, this would have, this would have had to, this would have had to involve him, like, actively torpedoing the pistons in the draft, like, oh, I'm just deliberately going to draft bad rebounders. Yeah. And I just, I don't, I think, but the crux of this is that, is that Troy Weaver, I, like, he's done some good things. He did get very fortunate with the first overall pick.

I don't think he's really earned the benefit of the doubt yet. The fact that he's fielded a team that has no vertical spacing, way too little athleticism in general, that's a problem that's come from the draft, not just free agent signings, not just trades. And it's, yeah, it just basically boils down to. Do you believe that this guy is, I'm not, I'm saying the jury's out. I'm not saying I think Troy Weaver's incompetent. I think I think he's out.

No, and I don't think, I don't think he's perfect either. I didn't like the Killian Hay's pick from the start. I thought that was a mistake. And of course, like, and it is. It's the butterfly effect is like, we got Cade out of it and that's great. But if we hadn't, yeah, it would be, we would probably be looking and talking about Troy Weaver very differently. Yeah.

The thing that I like about him and the way that the organization has been is that they've focused on this youth movement. They have not tried to win or be competitive too soon. That I will give them credit for because that's something that I've wanted for years. Yeah, but what I will say, and I think this should be noted, when it comes to last season, I know because Don's you were talking about this, how the losses were competitive last season, it should be noted that as the season wore on and as the Pistons fully committed to that youth movement, like getting rid of Blake Griffin and getting rid of death. Eric Rose and getting rid of Dolan Wright, who was replaced by a better player in Cory Joseph.

It's basically just how it happened last year. I know it pissed him fans off, but that's what it was. Whatever the case, the season wore on, the losses became significantly less competitive. It's just, I think that it's easy to remember that differently because everybody was completely fine with it. It's like, okay, we're halfway through the season. This is a strong draft. We really need a strong pick in this draft. And lose games, whatever.

Okay, cool. Ha-ha. Pistons are losing. You know, is Yokic going to play? Is Jokic going to play? Is Butler going to play down the stretch? are we going to be able to lose this game? I mean, I think that it's very easy to think back.

And I found myself not even remembering that a lot of these losses were not really close down the stretch. But would you concede that the guys were improving or appeared to be improving rather than regressing? Even if the scoreboard didn't reflect that, at least more show than this year. I think that there just wasn't really as much thought of that. I mean, the players we were looking at were rookies, like Sherbaix was doing well. Hayes was just coming back from injury. And that didn't happen until April. Stewart was still the backup center and still a rookie.

And you're not really looking at that sort of things. You just say, okay, these rookies are playing fairly well. Like, yay, that's great. I mean, saving Lee at a, like, you know, 420 plus point games. And it's like, okay, cool. Like, these rookies are playing well. That's fun. And then you come into this season and it doesn't continue.

I mean, that's just an added dimension to it being unpleasant. Yeah. I wasn't going to mention the final score things, but I did notice that. And I thought, truthfully, I thought they were closer final scores, but I was looking at our season stats. And on basketball reference, there's actually a little chart right at the top of that page that shows the margin of victory or margin of loss graphically.

And average margin of loss was like probably 10, especially near the tail end of the season. And that's perfectly fine. I know that the last couple of games we've lost have been by 30. And then as far as why we're losing by a lot more, I think it's just we've given a lot more usage and responsibility to these young players. Sadiq Bay is a full-time starter. Right now he's functionally our second option.

That's a step up. Isaiah Stewart, he's not the backup anymore. He's the starting center, and I think that's exposed a lot of his issues. And then our lead ball handlers have been Killian Hayes and Cade Cunningham. So when I think about the objectives for the season, I was going to ask you this, Dante, like, what should they be doing differently? They've given the most responsibility to the young players. Corey Joseph, I know people were complaining about his usage early on. Casey came on and said he was like, yeah, we want to play Cade with another ball handler so that he's not overwhelmed start.

But he's been kind of his role, I think Mike you mentioned that his role has been reduced as the season's gone on. Like they're treating this like a rebuild and the goal is not to win. It's to put these guys through the fire. And I think one way that you can look at this and part in this analogy, because I'm I'm not trying to sound like one of these people, but like, I don't know if you, if you invest in stocks, if you check your portfolio every day and you agonize over like your daily up and down, you're going to stress out over it. But if you like look at it over the long term, chances are you're going to be up, at least in this market.

You go and wall street bats, say? You're a big Wall Street bats guy. No. No. But, um, but that's, that's functionally what it is. Like guys have improved. Like, Sadiq Bay, he started the year really rough and he's gotten better. Kay Cunningham, he started the year really rough.

He's gotten better. Isaiah Stewart, he's still struggled. I think his issues are more, well, the lack of vertical and the fact that he's not shooting. It's stuff like that. Guys undersized, too. Yeah, and he's understri. Exactly. It's stuff, but they're learning.

And it's exactly what you want. It's the vast majority of usage goes to young guys. And that's what's most important to me. So, Dante, what were your goals for this season? I think, well, the initial way you phrased that question was, what could they do different? and not that anything that you said was wrong. In fact, I think you articulated it quite well, but one big issue I have, and I don't think either of you will disagree with this, is that some of the coaching decisions, some of

the organizational decisions have been so baffling to me that I can't even begin to articulate it, but I will try. And I'm sorry to go back to the Lions again, but I just feel there's so many parallels between the Pistons and the Lions these last couple of years. And I've been super critical of the Lions head coach, Dan Campbell, this year. It's been up and down, but he's sort of won me back lately. And one thing that he stressed from the time that he was hired was that you're going to play or you're going to have a role based on what you earn.

And there's a really great podcast, the Detroit Lions podcast. It's run by a guy on Reddit named Chris. So shout out to him. He does a great show. And he brought up this really great point about the Lions. And he said that they were so bereft of talent. But one positive in there is that it allows the organization to play guys and give opportunities these two guys who might not otherwise have that opportunity.

And if they take those opportunities and run with them, you reward them. And cross-referencing this with the Pistons, I think, about Hamadu Diallo, right? Here's a guy who on most other teams in the NBA would not ever, ever, ever have been given the role that he got the past, you know, this past week's worth of games before everybody came back from COVID there. And he just lit it up. He was averaging close to 30 points per game for like three or four games. He looked like he could thrive as the focal point of an offense.

And what happens when the guys come back? Diallo is reduced to someone who sits in the corner, someone who cuts to the basket on occasion. And what he earned was completely thrown to the wayside in favor of some preexisting direction or plan that the coaches or the organization wanted to go. And it doesn't make sense to me. And then inversely, you look at a guy like Killian Hayes who has not earned, you know, his spot, who has not earned his role, who has not earned his playing time by any stretch. and here he is now still starting, still handling the ball quite a bit, still being able to take shots whenever he wants. And that to me is something that they could do differently. That to me is an objective for the year that they've completely failed in.

And that's giving guys who earn their role the benefit of the doubt and allowing them to continue to grow and taking away the roles from guys who are not earning it. There's one big issue I have with this season to answer your question. I would say that's the regression. So I have two things to say about this, really. Number one, I would say that the regression has more sources than simply the young guys are getting more of a role. For example, yeah, you don't sign a linic and expect him to suddenly, you know, be out for most of the season up to this point. You don't expect the pistons to come out and, you know, even shoot well below their weight. You have Kate, of course, who is going to have to get up to speed, you know, don't expect his early season injury, but whatever.

A lot has gone wrong to get the piss into where they are in terms of injuries, just in terms of players playing very poorly. Of course, the coaching has been bad also. I also don't agree that it's simply a good thing to say, okay, I think it's oversimplifying, I'll put it that way, to say, okay, the youth are just getting their opportunity. This is exactly what we want. I agree with Dante on that issue that it's,

I don't think is necessarily being targeted properly. Yeah, the way that things have been handled with Killian Hayes and Kate Cunningham, I'm like, I think that was just dumb. basically just the product of the organization thinking, okay, well, goodness, I mean, we drafted Killian Hayes, who's really a lot of his talents, I think, has found, if he was going to have a role in the NBA, just a ton of his utility is loaded into being a possession heavy ball handler. It's like, okay, well, we drafted him and then, you know, a considerably better player who does the same thing, though has more offball utility, became available.

Well, you know, crap. I hope we can play them together. They want to see what we have here. Seriously. And maybe if we push them together, you know, something will just, you know, something will happen and great. And I've got to think that these, that the front office and Dwayne Casey realized that it was unlikely with the two of them will work well together. But I don't begrudge them trying. You know, if we're looking back, it made perfect sense for them to try.

But after it became, I think, apparent that number one, Killian is still really bad, which we'll get to a little bit later. And also that you want to have Cade and playing, you know, not just him, but Bay and the others, developing in, you know, in an ideal lineup. Why don't you put Frank Jackson in at shooting guard? Why do you run Bay on this hideously stupid experiment of, oh, just take the ball? This is the hardest thing to do in the NBA to generate offense out of nothing from the perimeter. And you're not necessarily athletically suited to it.

But here, Sadiq, take the ball, take it. just go make something out of nothing. We're giving you thin air. We want you to make good offense out of it. And then just keep doing it again and again and again and again and again for like 25 games. That was incredibly clunky and stupid. I would say the way that Killian has been handled overall. I don't think that he's being, and I know I'm getting into monologuing a little bit here,

but I don't think that he's been mismanaged at all in not wanting him handle the ball because when he has gotten to handle the ball, he has been terrible. Like terrible. I think that if he were not the seventh pick, he'd be in the G league, because he has played worse than Saving Lee, without a doubt. And he has been one of the worst players in the NBA, like, incontestably. So, and you got, you know, you came down to Diallo. Yeah, he's a young player.

I think he needs to be able to shoot if he's going to be an effective starter in the league. But, yeah, everything went back to the way it was, and suddenly Diallo was in the corner, and despite being the best player on the team at attacking the basket, I think that's pretty much just is the case. He's not being given opportunities to do so in the course of, in the fall of the offense. It's just go stand in the corner and maybe some scraps will come your way. And that's not fair. That's not fair. When you preach this Detroit grit, this earn what you get mentality, he comes out, he explodes. Even the league takes notice. He's on the NBA's Instagram page for God's sake.

And now a non-shooter is relegated to being a corner spot up shooter. That's a blatant mishandling of your assets. And that's certainly not rewarding someone who came in and did exactly what you asked them to do. So that's one of the big problems I have with this year. It's an issue. And that's, that's, that's Dwayne Casey. It's not surprise me. Sorry, sorry, I interrupt. I just want to say this.

It's Dwayne Casey. I, I, I, fully expected. I mean, it started with just kind of having a feeling like, oh, this can't possibly be the case. But then just thinking, okay, yeah, this is probably going to happen because this is Dwayne Casey, who runs an offense that can use only three people is not innovative. Hommid who's going back in the corner. That's just how it is. It's not a good thing.

It's, it's dumb. It's just, it's stupid and it's wasteful, but it's how it's how it is. Wayne Casey. Unfortunately, for me to avoid getting really angry watching these games, I just have to, I've just had to grow to accept Dwayne Casey for what he is as an offensive coach, which is bad and he's going to do dumb things. And now a quick word from our sponsor. Hockey fans, Draft King Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NHL has a no-brainer offer that'll make you a winner once any shot gets past the goalie. New customers can bet just $1 on any NHL game and won $100 in free bets if either team scores. The

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And if you have a gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler. Yeah, I would have to agree with you guys on Killing. I definitely think he gets preferential treatment or more than he's realistically earned or deserves just because he was a seventh overall pick. That I agree. It's questionable. but otherwise, I think guys have been handed roles where you really get to see what they're

capable of. Like Sadiq Bay, Mike, you made that point about he should not be trying to take the, like, play off the dribble. He should be a catch and shoot option. I think he's just gotten this role because there really aren't a lot of guys that we can go to for creation. It has to be like Kate Cunningham. But when we have more talent, like within two years, be that.

from another draft pick or two, where we finally get some free agency money to spend on a decent player, guys will fall down the totem pole and they'll settle into roles that are more akin to their strengths, and it'll be a lot more reasonable from them. You see this a lot when, like, guys try to go from, like Jeremy Grant is a good example. Like he was a much, he was a better three-point shooter when he was a fourth option and a lot more of his offense was created for him. He comes and he tries to create a lot more of his own offense and his stats take a dive. That's kind of the trade-off that you have. I think once we have more talent, it'll become the case that guys will settle into roles that they're more suited for,

and they'll be a better player. Sadiq Bey, we know he's not a good second option. He's playing like a second option right now because realistically, who else should be on this team. But once the team is good, guys like Isaiah Stewart, who should probably be a backup center, guys like Sadiq Bay, who should probably be a fourth or fifth option, they will settle into their roles and they will be much more useful. Right now we're seeing what they're capable of. There's no question of that. If the team was good and we didn't know Sadieq Bay was not a good back to the basket player or good off the dribble player, that would be a question mark, but it's not because we've gotten to see it. I don't know if it was a matter of seeing if you can do this or not. I think just that the quote unquote development plan

for Bay was very hairbrained. And I think with Isaiah Stewart, I don't think we're seeing what he can do. I think that Casey has basically devolved him to the level of an undersized traditional center who can't jump, which is not a good role. I think he'd be a good postup center. It's very hard to be a good post. I think he would overpowerful guys. It is disappointing that he hasn't been shooting this year, though. Off the bench, maybe against the bench centers. Maybe you can be a postup center, but it's hard to be a good postup center.

It's hard to be a good post-up player in this league, period. So, but, I mean, you look at things. Like, I don't think you need to run Sadiq Bay on, like, on a zillion isolations from the perimeter on in. you know, with full knowledge of what his athletic limitations are to know that he can't do that. Very, very, very, very, very few players can do that on volume successfully. Almost all of them, pretty much all of them, have an all-stars or will be all-stars. I mean, it's a very niche form of offense. And I don't think that is.

I think there's an effective post-player. We'll see. I mean, it's not easy to be an effective post player in the NBA. It's not easy for that. I can start as he's definitely not. But I think against, like, weaker competition, it would be a good role for him. We'll see. It's hard, it's hard to say that.

He's got some limitations, though. He's got some, Isaiah has some very significant limitations that cannot be overcome. I mean, he is undersized and he can't really jump. That's a big problem. I mean, it's a big problem for him on offense in particular, but even on defense, but you've got these taller, much more athletic centers or guys who can just sky over him and know that they can, if they get high enough and scoop the ball high enough, they can just put it over his outstretched arm because he can't jump that high.

No, I think that's been another problem. When you talk about why the team is underperforming, they're just not talented. I've said it all year. And I think it's an issue and I think it's easier for people to say that it's the effort level or the coaching or it's something that can't really be fixed immediately. Well, it's a multifaceted problem, right? The lack of talent is certainly a huge issue. I think we can all agree the coaching is at least partially an issue. And I hope that we can all agree that the roster or some of the decisions that have been made with this roster, you know, draft picks.

I'm looking at a specific seventh overall pick. That's that's an equal part of problem as well. When I think about what the roster decisions, I just, I don't think it was meant to be good. You know, I don't think that they're trying to compete too early, so I don't take issue with the way that the roster has been constructed. I think it would be a lot easier to swallow if they were shooting league average from three or above league average. Because I think that's where the roster has been significantly worse than expected. You know, Troy Weaver said in the all scenes, like, we're trying to address the shooting. guys like Sadiq Bay regressed.

Kelly Olenick hasn't been here to help with that. That's where I think the team is underperforming relative to the expectation, even of a tanking team. That's why I think the problem is. I don't think, again, we're going to disagree on this. I agree that the team wasn't meant to be too good. I mean, I'm just, I think that's very, that's very reasonable to say.

I don't think the person should have been trying to compete. I should be trying to compete by any means. But I think that's certain aspects of it, like the lack of athleticism, lack of verticality. I don't think that's the way that you make your team bad. Growing pains, giving from giving the younger guys a bigger role could be expected, but basically nuking the pick and roll, I don't think that that's something that any general manager is going to willfully do, especially when you've got Kate Cunningham coming in and you know that it's going

to be an important thing for him. Yeah, it's hurting him. Yeah, it's hurting him without a doubt. But not that I want to have the last word, but we've gotten on to about 50 minutes now. I know there are some other players we wanted to talk about. One of them is Killian, of course. I don't think we have really a ton to say about him. All of us are very disappointed and that our wits on with him. I think it should be reiterated that, like, you can't simply, I mean, whatever, I don't want to say you can't simply, but basically that the chain of events that led to the Pistons getting Ked was the chain of events that led to the business getting Ked. And Killing was one of those. And he was one of those events. I don't think you can really look good, reasonably look back and say, oh, well, if we ever just drafted such and such, then we'd have him and Kade. Like, you change one thing, then who knows what happens. It's the butterfly effect. Yeah, sure. You call it that.

So it was to pick a mistake at this point, it appears so. And you can call it what it is. And I don't think the book is written on Killian necessarily. Again, it's still only about 20 years old. Hasn't played a lot in the NBA. I think at this point, Killing can be accurately summed up by the following. Gifted passer, respectable guard, one-on-one on-ball guard defender against a certain category of guards,

and above all, an egregiously bad NBA player, and without a doubt, one of the worst players in the league. So I'm not saying that the book has been written on Killian. He's still young, hasn't been in the league for very long. But at this point, just the starting lineup is not the place for him to be. And I'll say it again, I think that if he were like the 20th pick, he would have been in the G-League already because he is just having a terrible, terrible, terrible time in the NBA.

And as far as the starting lineup goes, like when Frank is back, when Frank Jackson is currently in health and safe, protocols. When he comes back, put him in the starting lineup, give the starting lineup a motion three-point shooter, a guy who can help to not just space the floor, but create separation, just make things easier on everybody. Like, Killian takes a lineup that is not athletic already, makes it less athletic, he takes a lineup that moves poorly off the ball already, makes it that much worse. He takes a lineup that is bad in spacing and makes it that much worse. Like even when Killian was shooting a decent percentage, it was all threes from the corners. He cannot shoot from above the break.

player can't shoot above the break is not a spacing threat. He's just absolutely terrible at the NBA level right now. So I would like to see him out of the starting lineup and maybe in the G League where he can compete at a level of which he can find some success. And I know Tommy, you are concerned about his level of confidence, but I don't think you can pander to the player's level of confidence when he's playing this poorly. I don't think that's really should be much of a function at all. No, not at all.

And at this point, it doesn't even matter. like Frank Jackson, the starting lineup next to Cade has been a thing for me since preseason. And I felt that way because we've always known that the best way to get, really this season should be about Cade Cunningham and his development. And Killian Hays, I've never really been a big believer in that pairing in the Cade Cunningham, Killian Hayes thing. I know a lot of people were really excited about that early on when it saw some success or it looked somewhat plausible. But it's always going to be dependent on Killian being an aggressive score who shoots. on volume from distance, and that just hasn't come about. Whereas Frank Jackson, he is willing to take those shots, and he does it effectively.

So Killian Hayes is a player who's probably at his best with the ball in his hands. And even if you don't want to see him in the Pistons uniform long term, just to build up his trade value, put him on the bench, put the ball in his hands, let him show off the skills that he has because the passing vision is one of them. And I don't think anybody's going to be like, yeah, no, we should take the ball out of Cade Cunningham's hands so that Killian Hayes can be more comfortable. Yeah, they're such overlapping players. Yeah, in terms of.

Exactly. Yeah, in terms of like, yeah, Killian, that was going to be his thing. I think in the NBA, if he was going to be successful, was as a possession heavy player, possession heavy ball handler, like particularly in the pick and roll, which made it all the more unfortunate last season that he came in and was the worst pick and roll guard in the league last season in the NBA, like unequivocally,

no matter what you want to say about his injury or anything. I mean, that's a shocking thing to manage. Yeah, even before he had the, even before we had drafted Cade Cunningham, I kind of started to think, okay, he doesn't really seem aggressive or talented enough to be a lead guard. Maybe he can take on the Lonzo ball roll. But even that, he just hasn't made progress. He made a little bit of progress, I think, on his aggressiveness and attacking the basket.

He does it like once or twice a game now, whereas to start the year he was at like zero. But it's just not enough. It's functionally not enough. It's not just that. I mean, if he, if he went. to talk about your ideal compliment next to Cade and especially in a lineup that probably at least features Sadiq Bain, the starting lineup in the long term, I would guess. You really want to have a guy who's more athletic, obviously, can move off the ball more.

You want to put the maximum number of options around Cade as far as cuts, motion three-point shooters, you know, lob threats, whatever. And Killian, the Lonzo role is very limited. It works only well in certain situations. Like Lonzo was playing next to Levine and DeRosen right now. He's playing next to Ingram and Zion last season. you got to have the right situation that requires this guy to do nothing but that basically shoot open threes and give him the space that he needs to do so. So even the Wanzo role needs to be in certain.

It needs to be, it has a precarious fit. And the Pistons don't have that. But I disagree. You can send him the bench and build his trade value because he's done just as terrible. And he's done terrible in every situation as an all-ball handler. Yeah. I think the Killian Hayes pick can sort of be summed up with the whole. So other than that, Ms. Lincoln, how was the play?

Right? It's like, oh, ouch. I mean, rough. I know that's a bit, it's a bit harsh. But like, we just got done, what is it? We've been talking about him for five or six minutes. None of it is positive. And it's like, I know we talked earlier, Mike, you're the one who brought it up,

the butterfly effect, right? You know, it's not easy to say, oh, what if we had Cade and such and such guy, right? But it's like, you can't help but wonder, what does a Cole Anthony look like on this team? What does it Tyrese Halliburton look like on this team? Yeah, that's the one. Exactly. It's like, what if we trade back, right? What if we do any number of things, but pick a guy who very clearly, at least right now, is not an NBA player. And I mean, it's bad. Like, it's not just, he's not just struggling. He is egregiously bad. He's not just a zero out there. He is an active negative because of how bad he is. I think he detracts from a lot of the other players, especially Cade, which is the absolute worst thing that you can do, especially this year, which like Tommy said, is a development year. for Kate. You know, that's the lead storyline. And him, I don't care what he says about how much he enjoys playing with Hayes. It doesn't work. It doesn't look good. It doesn't pass the eye test. Statistically, I don't think it works out to be very good. And overall, he just is, he's not an NBA

guy, at least not right now. So do I, am I ready to start throwing out the B word? It's like he's 20. You don't want to cut him. He doesn't have trade value. You obviously kind of stick him wherever you can stick him and see if maybe you eventually have something there. But it's like, what do we have at this point. Probably by the end of this season, you're looking at you've burned two years of team control. He hasn't improved in any single facet of his game at all since coming into the NBA. And you spent a top 10 pick on him. So that to me, by every conceivable metric, is a swing and a miss, I think. If he ever becomes something greater than what he is now, that'll be a pleasant surprise. But I just don't see a path to it. Like, it's like, what is he all of a sudden going to acquire

a shooting touch? Is he all of a sudden going to have an effective friend? step. Is he going to get faster? Is he going to become more explosive, more athletic? It's like, no. You know, you look at a guy like Cade and you're like, okay, he can improve his ball handling. He can improve his shooting consistency. His mind for the game is going to mature. With Hayes, I just don't see a viable path for him to improve nearly substantially enough for him to be an effective NBA, not even an effective NBA player, just an NBA player in general. So right now, I don't really know what you do with him. Like Tommy, I get what you're saying about, you know, stick him on the bench there, let him build his trade value. But to,

Mike's point, he has struggled in every situation. He's been bad. He's been bad. Generally, he's been terrible. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead, Mike. It's not just, I mean, it's not just a question of can he, can he improve his

skills? Can he become a good fit next to Kaden? I think the answer to that is just incredibly unlikely, I would say. And as far as how they play together, I mean, if you look at it, look at it statistically, like this is, this is one place in which you really have to just look at the whole picture statistically. because if you look at his on-off numbers, Cade's on-off numbers where Killian are concerned,

it would look that like, okay, Cade is just a better player with Killian on the floor. And then you look at the fact that Casey has basically taken it, I think, a little bit too far and saying, oh, yeah, we need to have another ball handler on the floor with Cade. Because when he's not been with Killian, when Killian's been injured or whatever else, Kate has been on the floor,

the vast majority of his minutes with Corey Joseph and Savan Lee, neither one of whom is by any stretch of the imagination whatsoever a viable off-ball player. Sabin Lee really is an NBA player of any strike right now. Yeah. Those are terrible fits for Cade. And that's such a good point. Yeah.

And if you hadn't, I mean, and again, this is one of these just unfortunate things that is just Dwayne Casey. The number of minutes that Cade has played at point guard with Frank at shooting guard and say with, you know, before Grant's injury, like the number of the number of line of minutes that was given to Cade, Frank Jackson, Sadiq Bay, Jeremy Grant and Isaiah Stewart, which is a reasonable lineup near zero. I mean, that lineup has hardly played together at all. So, you know, you haven't seen that, which I think would be the most viable lineup. I mean, you take grants out of the equation. Of course, you've got Hamadu in the lineup instead. But that one up just hasn't played. I think, Frank, you put it this way, Tommy, is just the most reasonable and obvious option to play shooting guard next to Cade.

So, yeah, it's a shame with Killian. But like I said, Pistons give him time. Cool. That makes all the sense in the world. give him time in the starting lineup next to your franchise player when he's just not a good fit and he's making problems for everybody. irresponsible. Yeah, not quite good. And I do want to make a point about his defense because I think his defensive reputation has grown a little bit overblown.

Killian is a, is legitimately a very capable one-on-one guard defender in isolation against non-explosive guards. In some situations, he can do quite well. He's tenacious. He moves his feet. And he's good at poking the ball away and so on and so forth. and he's good at playing the passing lanes in general. Against, in really any other situation, not so good. He is terrible against explosive point guards,

who just blow past him. He is awful against quick point guards. Who can get the ball and handoffs around a screen and shoot, killing, they'll never catch up. And he's just absolutely dreadful against explosive point guards in the pick and roll because killing is awful, it's just an awful defensive first step.

He was taken off of John Morant after a very short time because the Grizzlies were basically just running, to pick and roll, killing him to run into Stephen Adams, who sets very good screens. And he would be like six feet behind John Morant because he just can't catch up in those situations. Just do slow. And he just gets overpowered when anybody's stronger on him. So his defense really isn't that good either. Not trying to nitpick. It's just he really has no NBA caliber skills right now.

Even his passing is really undercut by the fact that he won't go hard to the basket. Can't break down defenses. So you can go back and listen to our draft pods from prior to the 2020 draft. I didn't want him. Tommy was a huge fan. No, I'm just kidding. So I really did like Killian Hayes back then. I think me and pretty much everybody wrongly believed that he had some NBA ready skills that he could just take right into the National Basketball Association. He has not. Boy, did he not possess those skills. He has been appallingly bad, like remarkably bad at the NBA level. So yeah, on to Sadiq. So as we know, prior to the last couple games in which Sadiq has kind of really struggled,

So he'd really turned a season around from being absolutely awful, like terrible on offense and just entirely discombobulated and just visibly very phased in general on defense and overall to really putting together a pretty darn good stretch of games. So yeah, let's talk about what has changed for Sadiq Bay as far as, you know, how he's being used, how he's playing. That's really brought about, I mean, beyond just shooting better from three. No, is that obvious? Apparel? Have we seen the headband? Are we going to talk about the headband? Do we question, honest question for you guys, because I know where I fall on this.

Do we think that there's a psychological component? Because I do. I think that him putting on the headband has boosted his confidence, honestly. Sometimes all it takes for good players to get out of a rut is one, you know, slump-busting performance. And if that just coincided with a headband, don't ever take it off. I don't know about that, but psychological, for sure. Like, he had that game winner against the Spurs. He came out and shot.

That was nuts. ridiculously well the next game. I think the start of the season, I think it's been a psychological thing for him. And I think that being a higher priority on the scouting report for the opponents has been really tough for him because, like I said earlier on, he really shouldn't be a second or third option. He shouldn't be, on a good team, he wouldn't be taking this many shots and his shot selection wouldn't be this varied.

But as he's kind of cut out the bad shots as the seasons wore on, I think that's been the biggest thing for him. Because when he sticks to his strengths, he does well. It's just we don't have a lot of players around him that allow him to just focus on what he's good at. He has to do more or he's expected to do more. That's all I think it is. I think that's very well said. I completely agree.

I don't think it's a matter of, you know, all of a sudden you snap your fingers, put a headband on and you're good now. I think there is a small psychological component to that. But we'll leave it there. What I think it really is is that when Sadiq is allowed to just play within himself to play in the role that he's best suited for, he can elevate his own play. and he can elevate the play of others by being that reliable spacing threat, someone who can absolutely make the defense pay, even if he doesn't have a lot of room to do so. I mean, that shot against the Spurs, like, yeah, obviously that's a fluky shot. That's not something that you are ever going to make it a high percentage.

There's two guys draped all over you, but it speaks to the broader point of Sadiq is able to elevate over guys, pull the trigger, even when they're right in his face, and he can hit tough shots. And a little bit, too, we've talked a lot about motion threes for him on this show. I've seen quite a few times in the past couple of weeks. He'll grab a hand off. He'll dribble to the side. He'll do something where he's, he doesn't have his feet said he's moving, but he'll nail the three anyway. And I think that's such a huge development in his game. And that's something that will allow him to take that next step as a player, but still hopefully, ideally, play within his role, because that's where he's best. Yeah, I agree with that. I think there's been a significant change to his role. Just the way he's played, the way he's being used is has changed a great deal. That's certainly from right around when, uh, Jeremy Grant went down. And I think that the change to a style of play that more suits him, I mean, that's been

very helpful to him on offense. I mean, him hitting his threes is also helpful, though he's taking different sort of threes now than he had been before. And also just, I think that's, yeah, the confidence has been a thing, like not doing a, not being terrible on offense again and again and failing again and again on ISOs and whatever else, which would really just have, I think, a visibly deleterious effect. upon the rest of his game, playing very tentative on defense, just seeming completely out of sorts, making uncharacteristic mistakes and so on. So we knew how he began the year. I talked about it

a little bit earlier in this episode, which is basically the experiments. And this began, actually, in Summer League, just take the ball and try to agree with it. And this would generally end in one of four things. He would take a flat-footed way up through multiple coverage. This is just a well-percent. shot because the defense has, Sadiq's not fast, defense has a long time to adjust when he tries to ISO from the perimeter. He would take a bad floater through contact. He would take a bad spin-around post-up jumper. You know, he would get stopped. He would post up and spin and shoot. That's a bad shot. Or he would take a bad mid-range pull-up. So all bad shots. So his role is just certainly like the ISOs have made a comeback at times, invariably to his detriment. But where he succeeded,

is more of a move to when he's creating offense to creating it from within the perimeter, whereas speed is less of an issue and the strength is more of an asset. It's just higher efficiency offense within the perimeter. More of last season's sort of role in the perimeter, just cruising around trying to find threes from within the, open threes from within the flow of the offense. And then some attacking mismatches, like when he gets on to a player who is significantly weak than he is, attack baseline, for example. So I think it's the distinction between Sadiq is a creator who shoots some threes.

versus a three-point shooter who does some creation in advantageous circumstances. I thought, yeah, the motion three-point shooting, I thought, was his next frontier. I know Tommy you felt the same way. And I think Sadeke is going, his ideal role is a volume three-point shooter who can in some situations create offense in advantageous situations versus a guy who's just going to be leaned upon as a creator and is also going to shoot threes. So I think that's where the change has come. And I think that greater success has definitely shown us more of last season, Sadiq, and just allowing him to manifest that sort of very wise beyond his years and composed beyond his years, that sort of mentality and just make the right decision.

And he's been passing more and so on and so forth as well. I don't know how much of just like to take the ball and score with it. Was he not passing because he just couldn't? Or was this part of the agenda like we want you to learn how to score? off the dribble from the perimeter. So I don't know. I don't think highly of the way that the coaching staff went about it, though. I think I made that clear.

All right, Tommy, any thoughts about Sadiq? Any further thoughts? Nope, I think that pretty much covers it. I guess I would start the last player with an apology because I guess I've probably been lowest on him out of the three of us, and that would be Hamadu Diala. I thought that his lack of a three-point shot would make him pretty much completely ineffective, and he's routinely

proven me wrong over the past couple of weeks. His athleticism and the activity and the energy that he plays with has been phenomenal and it's effective. And I didn't think that it would be a good fit next to Cade, but in the starting lineup, I think he just finds ways to be effective. I thought his attitude would maybe be a problem. I thought primarily I thought it was the lack of three-point shooting because that's still an issue and I think it's still going to hold him back.

But for a team that's so depleted of assets and options, I think he's been more than valuable. So I would just say that like he's he's a bright spot in an otherwise pretty pretty dark season. Oh yeah. Absolutely. And you made the mistake of thinking he didn't listen to the show all those times. He didn't think. Yeah, he heard me talking trash. He heard you. Yeah, he heard you. And then he started screaming at Casey and then he got some playing time and then he really turned it on. But I mean, joking aside, look, it's is the fit with Cade an ideal one? You know, probably not. ideally you want someone who can hit the three reliably but compared to what kate has been working with you know the killian hazes of the world diallo must just be a godsend as someone who can jump

and actually elevate above the rim you know someone who can get their first step off and not be slow as molasses someone who can contort their body you know in an acrobatic way and still have some nice touch around the rim to finish tough looks in traffic and above all else someone who's a threat to do anything athletically, anything vertically, someone who introduces a new wrinkle that the defense really doesn't have to worry about when it comes to the rest of this roster

because like we keep pointing out, Mike especially, we're so devoid of athleticism. We're so devoid of effective off-ball movers and we're especially devoid of people who can play above the rim. And I think that Diallo really encompasses a lot of those key aspects of what makes a success, excuse me, successful lineup out on the floor really run.

And so, yeah, he just throws something new in there. So it's, it's, I can't even tell you guys how much it hurts me to see him have such an exceptional string of games and then be relegated to sitting in the corner and occasionally cutting to the basket. Now it just, I know this is the positive segment. So you can go back and listen like 30 minutes ago when we discussed that. But overall, if Diallo is used properly, and that's a big if, because with this coaching staff, nothing is a guarantee.

but if Diallo is used properly, if he's developed in an effective way, I think that we're looking at someone who we sort of picked up off the scrap heap who can really be, you know, maybe not a major piece, but a piece, someone who can be here long term. And on a team that's really hurting for guys who we know are going to be here throughout the duration of the rebuild and can actually help us long term, that's invaluable. So I think we need to prioritize playing to Diallo strengths and rewarding

him, you know, when he shows out, which we're not doing right now, but hopefully that changes. I would say, I mean, those of those of you been listening to the show for a long time, know that I was probably the highest on Dielo out of the three of us. So I will say with respect to how he was handled early in the season, I mean, Diela did not have a good preseason. He does not appear. There was a lot of talk rightly, like, okay, he's got to work in a shot. This guy could be a good player in the league.

I don't think he worked on a shot at all in the off season, which is, if true, I mean, that's that's on him. But yeah, Dielo has a lot of assets. And I think that, I mean, if you add a shot to his game, I've talked about this many times. If he becomes a reliable three-point shooter, like fantastic. I mean, he's got starter potential in the league 100%. Because Dielo isn't just athletic. DeLo is like 99%ile athletic, one of the most athletic players in the league. And he's incredibly quick. He's explosive. He's strong. He's a great leaper. And so if you had a three-point shot in there, then great. You can space the four. Players have to respect him, like on close outs. I mean, if you, if, if Diallo has, sorry, for those of you just heard the text message, so if Diallo catches the ball on the perimeter and he's open and somebody has to close out on him. So basically out of Diallo is going to get that shot. If he's a good three-point shooter and he can hit his open three is great. You get a high percentage, a good chance at high percentage by, excuse me, a high efficiency bucket. And otherwise, I mean, if you close out, I mean, It's almost, okay.

That's what happens when you don't put your phone on silent. Popular guy. I think it's Diallo texting in. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, he's actually telling me what to say. But, yeah, I mean, if you have to close out on Diallo, you're toast because he's going to blow right past you. And then somebody has to come help, and Diallo is proven he can make the open pass.

So, yeah, I mean, if you can get that shot together, absolutely. I mean, I might as he has start a potential as the business. Maybe the guy you put next to Kade. Who knows? But, yeah, I've, I've. enjoyed watching him get his shot and show what he is able to do. And I think defensively he's done pretty well also. He needs to work on his instincts, but he's a sticky defender.

He's actually really good at getting loose balls, at poking away balls and picking them up. And he doesn't gamble in order to do so. I mean, it's not what he's going for steals and giving up buckets. And he just defines his ways to be effective. He's definitely a strong rebounder, a strong offensive rebounder. He knows where to be. He's quick enough to get there. and yeah, I would like to see him continue to be used according to his strengths.

Like I said, I've accepted that this coaching staff just does certain things in its own way that it just has to be accepted. There's not necessarily a high level of, high level of effectiveness there in terms of the offensive coaching. But, yeah, if he can spend the offseason, get a shot together, you know, great. Might have a long-term piece for the Pistons there. But, I mean, I know in an episode which we opened by talking about, again, we believe falsely or, you know, without justification.

You know, national analysts talking about how the Pistins just aren't competing. You can't say with Diallo that he's not competing on every play. Certainly not. Certainly not. That guy tries his ass off all the time, 100% of the time. He's going full throttle. And that, like Garza, I said this a couple episodes ago about Luca Garza, you got to appreciate someone who gives it their all even when they're down by 25 or whatever it is.

that that to me is what defines a winning culture. Yeah, and Garza, we actually have been planning to talk about in this episode, but we've just about a run out of time. So we'll get to him next week. All right, folks. Well, as always, thank you for listening. Actually, usually we'd have a few years of submitted questions at this point, but we're a little bit too late in asking for those.

So we did get some. We'll cover on the next episode as well. We'll take a rain check on them. Absolutely. So thanks folks for listening. We'll catch you in the next episode.