Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 86: The Stretch Run, the Draft, and the Offseason (featuring James Edwards of The Athletic)

Episode Date: February 24, 2022

This episode, featuring special guest James Edwards---Pistons writer for The Athletic---discusses with James what he expects from the remainder of the season, the draft, free agency, and more. Many thanks to James for joining us on the show!  

Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to Drive into the Basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike, joined today by Tommy and also by our special guest, Detroit Pistons, beat writer for the athletic and one half of the Bunning Cardigan podcast, James Edwards. James, pleasure to have you. Thanks for joining us. Hey, I appreciate you guys having me on. I know we talked about it for a little bit.

Glad that we could finally get it done. I'm excited to get rolling. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I know that that you mentioned that, The athletic currently has a special promo going on. You want to tell us about that? Yeah, I believe you can get, if you don't have a subscription yet, you can get one for $1 a month.

Just go to my Twitter page, click on the most recent story, and I'm sure it'll be right there in the link. And actually, at the time you're listening to this, I have a really cool story that I worked on with my colleagues, Jay King and Tim Cato. We've been working on it for a few months. If anybody's familiar with the Sham God crossover, one of the more famous moves and bad. basketball. It was actually first done by Pistons assistant Jerome Allen back in the early 90s. So we do like a little bit of digging and investigation as to who really had the move first. Why did Jerome not get credited for it? All that stuff. Where it all came from. It's pretty fun read. So I'm excited for that. And yeah, I'm sure you can get the promo if you click on that link,

which will be, I'll be tweeted out at 9 a.m. Yeah, fantastic. Yeah. I've from my part been subscribed to the athletic for a couple years now. I think it's awesome. yeah it's just it's a great one-stop shop for high-quality reporting on really all the sports all the teams I follow so definitely encourage all of you to check it out so that said let's let's launch right into it so this season has flown by it does not see very long ago that we were watching kate conningham get drafted and then playing summer league and and we're all looking forward to a season that maybe hasn't quite gone as planned but it has been a season so only about 25 games left.

So, James, we saw the team kind of pivot last year, maybe in the last couple of months as it near the end of the season. And what do you think, like a pivot really to playing the younger players more, maybe sitting the veterans a bit. What do you think we're going to see this season? Yeah, it's a good question. On Thursday, the Pistons had their first practice since the All-Star break. And Dwayne talked about wanting to see like Isaiah Liversmore down the stretch.

that was the name he brought up first. Chris Smith is another guy that could get a look at the main level here in the next few weeks. I think there is going to be a point where you see the likes of Olinick and Grant sat down, whether they get a nagging injury and the team decides to go that route or I don't know. Teams can make up any reason and disguise it as an injury. So I think there is going to be more, even more of a push toward the youngsters. Like I said, I think we are going to see more Isaiah livers. I think we are going to see a little bit of Chris Smith, some Saban Lee.

It's just a matter of when that happens. I could see it being, I don't know, mid to late March with about a month left in the season. Yeah, I would just be very surprised if there wasn't an instance in which either some of the veterans were just kind of sat down for a little bit, whether it's injury or, I mean, it'd obviously have to be injury. they'd have to, whether it's legitimate or not as another question. But I think that time will come within the next month or so. Yeah, that's awesome. That was one of the things that we wanted to go ahead and ask you about. It was just announced earlier today that Campbell Walker is sitting out for the rest of the season.

And I think one of the things that a lot of people have been wondering, and there was some clarification on this in Weaver's Q&A is, you know, one of the Pistons' goals down the stretch. And that's definitely one of the things that people were curious about. Are they going to focus more on the young guys and try to preserve their draft pick and their lottery odds. Do you see that kind of being a focus? And if so, to what degree?

Yeah, definitely, I mean, I think going into the year was important to get another top seven-ish pick. And now that they're in the position for the second straight year to really have a shot at having two back-to-back, number one picks, I definitely anticipate them diving into that and doing what they can to give themselves. the best chance possible. I know when people here tank, they think the players are going to tank. No,

that's not what happens. I think, like I said earlier, you'll see more of an emphasis on Isaiah Livers and maybe Chris Smith and Saban Lee and just young guys who you want to get a look at and young guys who naturally are just going to make mistakes, which naturally lead the losses. So, yeah, I think it's, the organization is very much wanting another top

three pick this year. And then after that, I think they'll reevaluate and see if they can make significant, if they can make a move next, next season by depending on who they sign or who they could get or trades that are possible to summer. I think they'll reevaluate the situation if they land another top three pick. And it could be a different course of action sooner rather than later. Great. Yeah, I'm just thinking back to last season when it got, I mean, I was not opposed to this at all, but I got a little bit silly down the stretch.

like for example, Mason, Mason Plumley being set for about two weeks for rest. It's like, I'm just curious, do you guys get a kick out of that? It's kind of like, you know, on the injury report listing, it's like, man, Mason, it's important that we only play you once every couple weeks here so that you can be fully rested for this game. And Josh Jackson, of course, being listed with tooth pain, right tooth pain, actually. Oh, yeah. That was pretty funny. I know it turned out to be oral surgery, but it must have been pretty funny for you guys.

Yeah, I mean, we know what's going on. obviously the team can't come out and say what's going on because then that's against the what's the word I'm looking for the heart of competition and the league would strike down on that but you can disguise an injury or two here or here or there it makes a little bit more palpable for everybody and it's I'd imagine not many people at the time we're paying money to go see Mason Plumley. It's not like he's LeBron James or something like that. So I don't think the league cared too much. Fair enough. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, some of that stuff's funny. You know what's going on. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So what do we know actually about Isaiah Livers? This is just

a little bit of an A side. I mean, he's a guy who was drafted. Of course, Troy Weaver had a lot of good things to say about him, particularly in terms of, you know, I think his contribution to team culture. He's just by all accounts, a great guy. I mean, I'm sure you've, you've had some time to interact with him. What do we know right now about his injury? I know that he's back with the cruise. Yeah, he's been dealing with, if you're a Michigan fan, if you went to the second best school in Michigan, you know what liver is about. Like, when the Pistons drafted, I might have got like a bunch of text from Michigan people that were like, you're just going to absolutely love. of them. But he was dealing with a foot injury that dated back to college and he got over it.

And then came back and played, I think, was it a game? Did practicing with the team. I think it was re-agravated. He was getting inserts, I believe, like for his shoe to help the fitting. I just don't think his foot took well to the return to play after all that time off. And they were obviously have been cautious with them, allowing him to ramp back up just to get right. And I think we're getting closer to where. We're going to see him play more minutes here with the main club. He's been at practices with the Pistons prior to All-Star Break. He was in a few.

Yeah, I think he's with the crews right at this very moment. But I do think within the next few weeks, we're going to see Isaiah Livers make a contribution to the main club. I think his foot is better. I think now the last few weeks have been just kind of ramping them back up to game shape. and just doing the final test to make sure if he comes back that that foot won't get aggravated again. That's awesome. It's always really exciting when you have a new piece just to evaluate and look at. But I guess as we're still going down the stretch, the Pistons are one of the worst teams in the league. And one of the things that the fan base in general is kind of, I don't know, tired of is the night to night losing.

It kind of wears on you. And it doesn't just wear on us. It wears on the players as well. You know, there was a quote from Cade Cunningham when he was asked about this during the, all-star media availability. And he said, it's been a tough experience so far losing so many games. A lot of us haven't lost as many games in our life. What can you say about the mood amongst the players? I know last year there was kind of

a little bit made of the fact that the players knew that they were tanking. It was a bit of an open secret as the way it was described. Do you think that's the case this year? Or how did the players feel right now? Yeah, I mean, as somebody who's around the team every day, like I don't, there's no friction. Like, I think all the guys really

like each other. I know this is a lame example, but it's, I think it's telling. Like, Isaiah, if you follow Isaiah Stewart on Instagram, like, he's posting everything that has to do with Sadiq and K over from the All-Star Weekend. Like, they're all close. Jeremy's one of the most likable guys. Corey Joseph's one, like, it's a really likable team. I don't, of course, they don't like losing.

Like, they're naturally competitors. They want to win every game. They don't care that they're young. They want to go out and be as good as they can be. So I think that's where the frustration lies, like anybody else, you're just not winning games. I don't think it's with the situation. I don't think they're mad at the situation. I think they all understand the situation and that this team is building from the ground up.

They look around the locker room. Everybody's pretty close in age. And naturally in the NBA, when you have a bunch of 24 and unders that you don't win very many ball games. And I think, again, I think the irritation comes with just losing and people just don't like losing. But I don't think the irritation is with the situation and what Detroit is trying to build. I don't think that's it at all. And I'm sure that, like, I know that they're often mixed opinions on Dwayne Casey, but I just say it's accurate that he's, especially in this kind of situation, he's a good guiding presence. Like, I know that, I know Casey really began his career, his coaching career in the NBA or his head coaching career with the Raptors team.

That was absolutely terrible. Yeah. And it took some time for them to get going. Like, you know, there's, I know, I think there are valid criticisms to be made about his coaching style. I certainly make quite a few of them, but we generally hear nothing but good things about him from his players. Yeah. When it comes to that, like I said, everybody's entitled to their own opinion. If somebody doesn't necessarily agree with the X's and O's night in and night out, that's your opinion to obviously to hold and to pick apart, all that. That's what makes sports fandom, sports fandom.

But what I will say, and it's not, I don't know if this is as much debatable is he's a guy that people like. people want to play for. And I mean, you see these young guys really take to him, take his words. They look like I wrote a story on Isaiah Stewart and how like coachable he is. Like you can see him in the middle of games with his arm around Casey, looking him in the eye, trying to get direction. And this is amid losing eight games in a row, nine games in a row. Like I think that's, as people talk about X and O's when they break down a coach and how good he is. I think that's important. And I think that can get you far. But I also think being able to like manage. grown men and build a culture and having guys want to play for you, even when the wins aren't

coming, is just as important in the NBA when there's so many egos involved. And I think first and foremost, I don't think there's anybody that could come in here and change the win loss record. If there is a different head coach in here, I don't think it looks much different. But there could be, if you bring in a different coach, the culture might not be the same. And I think where the pistons are right now, the most important thing is the culture to continue to work, to put together performances like they did against Boston before the break. That was a team that lost eight in a row and was five hours away from having a week off,

and yet they came out and played their best game of the season. So I just think that says a lot about the people in charge, what they're building, and the type of guys that they've brought into to help build this as well. Yeah, absolutely. A lot has been made about the types of players that Weaver brings in. That's kind of his philosophy when it comes to drafting. people talk about him as a talent evaluator. He's always said it's like he's about the person, not the player.

And I think that's a big part of why the Pistons are so resilient and why they're not imploding in terms of culture down this horrible stretch of, you know, wins and losses, or a lot more losses than wins, rather. But you had a Q&A with Troy Weaver about a week and a half ago, and you had asked him what his message to the fans would be with wins not coming in, but the process still being what it is. And he said that the process is to build a. sustainable winner and that takes time. He said, I'm sure that someone would like us to fast track it,

but you only have one shot at this thing in the restoring process. We don't want to skip any steps. We don't want to shortcut anything. We're going to stay committed to the process and building it the right way. What do you tell fans are like, do they try to reiterate that it's, that there is like a method to this madness? Like, are they trying to project that at some point they are going to pivot or are they just really not worried about that? They're sticking to their, their formula and taking their time. Are you asking, like, do I think about, do I think the front office is? Yeah, so, like, is there pressure from the fans to, like, get going and start competing fairly soon?

Or are they just going to see this thing through regardless? Yeah. It's always so tough to talk about because I try not to tell people how to be a fan. Like, I would say 80% of fans tune in to watch their team win basketball games or football games or soccer games or soccer men. matches or hockey games, whatever it is. You want your team to be the best. So naturally, you want your team to win. I think what gets lost in the more casual fan, which I think people need to remember,

especially people like us who are on the internet all the time, the people that sit on the internet and Pistons Twitter and message boards and Reddit, those aren't really usually the people who are buying tickets to games. Those are usually families and communities and teachers and stuff like that, families, friends. Like, it's a community event. So I think the people who are more savvy basketball fans understand that this process is needed given where the Pistons were two and a half, three years ago. I think if you've paid attention to the trajectory of the team over the last decade, being committed and being patient with a rebuild is of the utmost importance because we've seen what

happens when the team tries to skip steps or tries to just make the playoffs or things of that nature. We see what that leads to. So I think I understand fans wanting to have their team win. Again, it is natural sports fandom. But I don't think the pistons, I think the pistons are confident. And when I say the pistons, I mean the front office. I think the front office is confident in their plan.

and that while people may complain now, there will be, I just put it like this. Are the Pistons tough to watch now? Yes. Are there people who are saying, I'm not tuning in. I'm not watching this.

Yes. Are those same people going to be back if the Pistons are right now 30 and 15 or 30 and 20 two years from now? Yes, they are. So people, people will come when the team wins. If you build it, they will come.

And I think that's why Troy is willing to be patient. That's why the organization and Tom Gores have committed to this kind of rebuild. Like, it might be ugly now, but if you build it, they will come, even if they're upset in the moment. So, yeah, I don't know. I think the piston should take another year after this year, but I'm not making the decision. I would not be opposed to that. It's a bold take, but I like it. I think they should.

I do have a question. And this one honestly just came to mind now. You were around, because you've been working with the athletic since, was it, 2017? Yep, yep. Okay, so you were around for the last, really the last year of the Stan Van Gundy era, and, of course, you know, now into the first year and a half, the Weaver era. How would you just characterize your experience covering the team? Like, and also just in terms of the, just the character of the organization.

And, yeah, I just suppose what's really, what's it like, you know, just the feel around the team and the experience of covering it between the two. The contrast between the two. That's a good question. Man, how would, I never, I haven't really thought about that. I would say the last year of the Stan van era was, you know how like,

I hope this isn't, I'm sure it's happened to some people, but I hope it's not, it doesn't currently happen. It's just a bad example. You know, like when your dog is sick, you've had your dog for like 12 years. And it's like,

you can sense it's on its last few breaths. And I'm not saying this about this isn't about Stan, but this is about an organization that had been trying to turn it around and it just wasn't working. And you have the head coach who's also the leader of the front office. So he has to not only answer coaching questions every availability, but he also has to answer roster building stuff every availability. You could sense that.

What was that for Stan? It's third years. Did he get? fourth year yes fourth year and i think once they got out to that hot start and then they got back to 500 i think we all kind of knew like i just feel like we all sat there like yes they had moments where they'd win games and then they'd have like we all knew what that team was so you're kind of just waiting for like the the sand to run out and i think you could toward the end of the year you could get the sense that stand wasn't sure if he was going to be back next year you're getting the

the team was a little stale i mean obviously they had a added Blake Griffin, but you didn't know what Blake Griffin was going to be. They still had Roger Reggie and Andre to buy. Like, it was just very much like stale. This team or this iteration is more so there's possibilities. So like we don't really focus or I don't at least like focus as much on like the day-to-day games. Like I expect this team to lose a lot. But I always put it like this.

When I was covering the end of the Van Gundy era and even DeWain's first year, the goal was to make the playoffs. So you're talking about there's expectations in the win loss. You're critiquing more things because they've come out and said we're trying to make the playoffs. So you critique more things on a day-to-day basis.

Here, with the rebuild, I don't really care about the game results. Like, it's not, that's not what the season's about. You can look for individual storylines. You're getting to know these young guys because last year when most of them got here, it was COVID year and the media wasn't around. It's just there's more possibilities.

It's just a little more like it feels more like a light at the end of the tunnel than it did. It was a little dimmer the end of the stand years. And even the first year, Dwayne, where they were trying to just still make the playoff. And they did make the playoffs. But again, we all got it in there. We all got into that season knowing if they make the playoffs, they're just going to be the eighth seed and probably not win a game. So I think there's just you can feel, you can feel them building towards something. Like you can feel it when you talk to the players.

You can feel it when you just watch and observe. Like it's almost ran like a college program. You can very much see it. I don't know if that made any sense. Yeah, absolutely makes sense. Yeah, definitely. So I just got about one and a half more questions on this top, you know, and it's just the topic of the stretch from.

And then we'll move on to the draft. First, I just got to know, I mean, what does the organization, what's the front office feel about how this season has gone so far? is I feel like they didn't probably maybe expect it to go this roughly, or was this something they anticipated might happen and that they were fine with? Yeah, I don't think they expected it to be this poor. But I will caution people to remember or not remember, but I mean, even acknowledge. Coming into the season, I think most Pistons fans who watch religiously and then obviously us,

the media, I think we would all agree that coming into the season, And if you're just looking at a basketball win-loss perspective, the three most important pieces coming into the year were Cade Cunningham, Jeremy Grant, Kelly Olinick. And those three really just started playing together healthy and kind of at their peak form a week and a half ago. So Kelly plays the first 10 games. Cade comes back five days in or makes his debut five games in. he's nowhere near the player he is now. Obviously, as you guys know, he struggled mightily that first few weeks. Then Kelly goes out.

And then Jeremy goes out. And then Kelly comes back without Jeremy. And then Kelly comes back and then gets COVID. And then Jeremy comes back. And then Kate has a hip injury. So the three most important pieces are never, there's never been any cohesion with them. I'm not saying that this team would be a playoff team if they were healthy in basketball, at sports so people aren't always healthy.

But, I mean, they've maybe played, like, a handful of games together that are, like, that look coherent. And I wrote about it before the break. If you, the Pistons only have 13 wins, but four of those are in games when Kelly Olinick hits at least four field goals. He hasn't really hit. He hasn't exceeded that very often in the small amount of games he's played. So I think this would look a little bit better if they've had a, if they wouldn't

have had the injuries that they've had if they wouldn't have had um uh just kind of the unexpected lack of continuity that's that's come um they've they've had to ask guys like tray liles to be kind of the cog of the second unit in terms of scoring um they've they've had to filter guys in and out of the starting lineup because of injuries frank jackson's been hurt on two separate occasions um it's killian hayes like it's just there's been a lot of shuffling amid trying to get these guys to grow. And I'm not saying that this, like I said, this team is going to win a lot of a lot of games. And I don't think the front office expected them to win a ton more than they did last year. But when people talk about, well, why isn't this team as competitive? I would say, I would

point to that first. Go see how much like a healthy Jeremy, healthy Kelly and healthy Kate have all played together. It's one. It's one, two. So I think that kind of factors into the front office is like, I mean, like, we weren't going to be that good. Do we think we'd be a little more competitive, yeah, but I mean, three of our most important guys, our three highest paid guys, haven't played together. Yeah, and the idea wasn't to come in and be competitive anyway. Right. So, I mean, this isn't the worst thing in the world.

Yeah. So, yeah, just my last final quick question. We all know, of course, Luke Garz is a fan favorite and hasn't gotten a ton of burn. And for obvious reasons, I'd say primarily his defense. Yeah. Do you think we'll see more of him down the stretch? And what do you think the organization believes it might have in him, you know, given, of course, the questions on the big question.

on the defensive end. Yeah, that's a good question. I don't anticipate seeing him a ton down the stretch just because they just got Bagley. Kelly's just kind of rounding into form. So they're going to try to experiment with the Kelly, Isaiah and Marvin Bagley front court because two of those guys are young guys that they're invested in, specifically Stu, and Olinick's going to be around for a little bit and is a guy that they obviously like and see as a big piece going forward.

Well, not, I shouldn't say going forward, but for the next season or two. So I would just be very surprised. I mean, obviously they could shut down Kelly at some point. And then maybe you see Garza, but I think for like the next few weeks, the focus is going to be on trying to build some continuity with them, with the Stewart, Bagley, Olinic front court. And then in terms of their long term plan, I don't know. It's tough to tell.

right now when I watch Luca Garza, I kind of think of him as like a specialty player, like kind of how people used to view Bobon or how people view Boban. Like maybe as he matures, you give him some stretches of games. You need some offense. You come, he comes in for nine, 12 minute stretches and gives you some points. And then he comes out. Like I don't ever really see him being a, obviously I don't see him being a starter at this level. And I don't really see him being a consistent like 15 to 20 minute game backup, honestly, but more like the bow pon, how Bobons use in terms of like specialty. You maybe need a spark.

You need some easy buckets. I could see that. Awesome. Yeah. It's fun to, it's fun when Luca gets some burn because you know that things are really, really going poorly. And I agree with you, James. Like, I don't really focus on in the losing and the night to night scores because frankly,

they're just depressing if you're really invested in them. I like to cope with the losing. through the draft, and I've been doing that for a couple of years now. Yeah. And the way I'm focusing on this one, it's just a pivot here. With Cade being the cornerstone of your franchise, there are different schools of thought. And you recently dropped an article on the athletic detailing what you think the Pistons Big Board is right now. But I wanted to ask you your opinion on the upcoming draft class.

And you've mentioned a couple guys on Bunning Carding that you like, depending on if we pick high and low. Can you tell us who you like and why? Yeah. So, like, my five favorite would go Jabari. I love his possibilities as a stretch for, as a scoring for. I think he could be, I think he could grow into something defensively. Like, I don't think he'll be a juggernaut like Chech can be, but I think he could be more than solid.

But I just think the offensive upside is very, very high. Chet, obviously, defensively could be an anchor of a really good defense of all goes well. I think he can add some offense. I think you could see like a maybe a better Porzengis, what everybody thought Porzengis would be. I think you could see that with Chet. I like, I really like Benedict Mathrin. He reminds me at KCP. And I know Pistons fans everywhere, everyone's doing like the Jose Marino meme right now,

taking their headphones off with the disgruntles faces. I say that. But like KZP has been a starter for 11 years. and has played a ton of minutes and average is double figure scoring. And like, yes, you didn't want to pay KCP, you shouldn't want to pay KCP $80 million, but you should want KCP on your basketball team. And Benedict Mathrin kind of reminds me of him. I think he has better playmaking ability than KCP.

I think he can be a better shooter. I think he can be as good defender. He's just this, I think he's just a guy you look up and he's like an NBA starter for many years, never really maybe makes an all-star game, but it's just a solid. NBA starter and I think he would fit very well next to Cade. I like Keegan Murray a lot. Iowa, if you're a Michigan State fan, you weren't familiar with Keegan Murray until the other day.

That's a big welcome party. That wasn't very fun. Yeah. He's a hell of a player. It's like he has a great mix of old and new school. Like with his back to the basket, he kind of reminds me of Al Horford a little bit, but then he can take it out and look like a forward.

Like he's more of a per. a perimeter based Al Horford in a way. I'm still trying to figure out, like, the proper comp. But it's, I know that sounds weird, but I just think there's not much that that kid can't do, scoring the ball, and he's got great size. How many is that? That's four.

I'm not as big on Paulo as others. Like, I think, am I confident that Paulo, I think the dilemma the Pistons are going to face when they, if they say pick two. Paulo, I would feel confident is going to be an NBA player for many years. But do I look at Paulo and think this guy has the potential to be a multiple-time all-star

or a culture-changing guy? I think the Pistons still kind of need one more of those star players, like a home run swing, like Cade. I'm not sure Paulo is that, but also I feel like if you draft him, you know you're getting a good player. It's similar like Benedict Mathron.

Like I don't think Benedict Matherin is going to be, I think Paulo has more upside than Benedict Mathrim, but what I'm saying is I don't think Benedict is going to ever be like, he's not a home run swing, he's like a double, he's safe, you know what you're going to get for many years. So the Pistons have to balance that if they don't end up with number one. But I think this draft is full of guys like that. Like I think there's maybe two or three guys who have the potential to be like true stars.

And then the rest are like good NBA role players, not the rest, but four or five after that are like good NBA role players. I like eight or nine guys a lot in this draft. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you name the names that I like. I'm also a big fan of Jabari Smith Jr. and Benedict Mathrin. I have Jabari Smith number one and then Matherin's probably like number five or six on my board. But the common theme between guys like Jabari and Matherin is they project as good role players.

Like obviously the ceilings are different, but with lower usage. And there's some discussion amongst fans right now about what kind of player do you want to put around Kade? Like, is it a rolling big? is it a low-use shooter or a high-usage secondary ball handler. If you're Troy Weaver, are you considering the fit with Cade or are you doing BPA? So if it is like, Paulo is like, do you think the highest ceiling left and you're picking like third? Do you take him or do you think you're taking a guy like maybe you do go in on a guy like Matherin or Kegan Murray? Is the fit with Cade like a primary concern at this stage in the game?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think for somebody like Kegan Murray, I think he would be an upside pitch. Like I think there are people who truly think like this guy could be a legitimately good player. But like you said with Ben, that's like I'm pretty confident he'll be like a very solid role player if all goes well. So when it comes to like, I personally think the Pistons are still like in draft the best player available mode because as much as the fans like certain young guys like I still look at the roster and I'm like, there's maybe four or five guys. I'm confident we'll be in the NBA five years from now. And that's Cade, Sadiq, Isaiah, Frank, Hamadu, and the list kind of ends there. That's five.

Yeah. So. You mean in the NBA or with the Pistons? In the NBA. Oh, okay. Like I would bet money on there in the NBA in five years from now. And the reason I don't put like Corey and Kelly in there, like they're older. Like they could be done 34.

That's true. So that's why I don't put them in. there. But other than that, like, I wouldn't bet money on anybody else being in the NBA five years from now. So, you still need talent. And Troy said it when we talked to him about two weeks ago, like, they're still in talent acquisition mode. When he got here, there wasn't a lot of talent. So I still think they need to be in the arena of just taking who you think five years from now, you look up who's going to be the best player. I think that's important. I don't think they're in a position right now to like, let's see what we need to piece around.

I think they, luckily, there's nobody that's, there's no Cade Cunningham in this draft. So anybody you get will work and can be paired with him. And that's the beauty of Cade is he's a chameleon. He can, he can blend in and play with so many different type of guys. But even then, I just, if there was another 6-6 ball handler, I would, I would have, I would, and he's the best, but you think he's the best player in this draft, I would take him too. So, I mean, you think that they would even go to such a length, like Tommy and I have a big disagreement as to how Ivy, for example, would find. function next to Kate Cunningham. And you think that they would go to the length of picking a player who maybe has a particularly

poor fit, even if, you know, just so long as he's the best talent available. I think, but I don't know if I look at anybody in this draft that's like projected to go in the top seven and say like there's a particular, like who do you think, who do you guys think would be a particularly poor fit alongside Cade? I don't know. I think, I think Ivy personally, just as a guy who does so much of his work going downhill with the ball on his hands. Yeah.

And I believe has some questions about. about his off ball utility. And also, Paolo, who my concerns about him is that he could become kind of like a budget Janus in a really bad way,

like Janus with the ball dominance, but without the athleticism, without the defense. Yeah. Yeah. So that there would be where I would have the concerns with fit, probably particularly,

Paolo. Yeah, I get that. And I could see what you're saying with Ivy too. Yeah, I like Ivy. And I get a sense that they like them. I don't know if they like them

as much as some of the other guys we've talked about, but I'm not 100% sure on that. So, yeah, when it comes to Ivy, I guess it just depends on what they, at the end of the day, if they think a guy, if they like his upside, I think that's just, that's the most important thing. I think, I just think, yes, would Ivy maybe not be the most clean fit? I can see somebody talk about how he might fit next to Cade if they can coach him and have him do the things he needs to do when he's not on the ball. but also if you're just going off what you've seen, I understand how people would have their hesitations.

But I think for the Pistons, it comes down to like, do they see Ivy as like, again, five years from now? Is this the best player that we could in this draft? I think that's just the most important thing for where the franchise is right now. Yeah. To present the flip side on Ivy, I mean, like Mike said, this is a disagreement that we've just had. I think in a future episode, we're going to try to discuss it.

If it's such a big conversation, we won't get into it now. But it would require some adaptation, definitely from Ivy and potentially from Cade. And I don't know if the fan base really wants to see that because Ivy is very good with the ball in his hands and he is a downhill player. And obviously you do want to give him the ball sometimes. But if you're giving him the ball,

you're taking it out of Cade's hands. I think that's really more the concern. So that's where the question marks are. There's certainly a section of the fan base that just wants to see Cade run the ball or run action all the time. I don't think the organization cares about what the fan base wants. In the realm of drafting, I really doubt they would. Yeah, I think there's, when it comes to Ivy, I think there are some cases to be made.

I also think that like, and we've seen it with what, this is why Cory Joseph starts or why Killian was playing next to him. Like, are we sure right now, like as much as everybody wants Cade to have the ball in his hands at all times? Like, are we sure right now for the whole entirety of a ball game that that that's what you want? That's how the best way to use Cade. Like, I think they're figuring that out right now. Like, are we sure that Cade is a true all and out point guard? I don't think they know that. I know they think he's going to be a really good player for a long time,

but is Cade more of it? Do you give Cade the ball in certain spots and then let him close it? Is he a guy that you can trust all 48 minutes being the primary ball handler? I don't know. And then if you don't think so, then it makes sense to have a Jaden Ivy. Yeah, absolutely. Fair enough. Yeah, they, I mean, this is a bit of an A side,

but I mean, I did some looking into the lineups and we talked about this a bit in our last episode, but it was some looking into the lineups and found that Cades played about 98% of his minutes alongside another point. point guard, be it saving Corey or Killian. Like the, I think the longest burn we've seen him get on his own without another point guard on the floor. And he was playing next to Frank Jackson. And this lineup was in that first Washington game that went to overtime.

And the pistons came just came up just short. Why do you think it is that Dwayne Casey is so intent on having another point card with him on the floor? I think there's a few things. Some good, some bad. I think the most glaring one is the three and a half turnovers he's averaging. he's still getting adjusted to the NBA speed. I mean, turnovers were an issue for him in college as well,

but he, again, wasn't on a great team. I think he's still getting, I mean, I just said it, he's getting adjusted to the NBA pace and speed. And I think one thing with K that we've maybe noticed is like, it's not that he doesn't get him, like, not that he doesn't like work his butt off or whatever, but like, is he in the, does he know what it's like to be an NBA shape yet? and to have guys pressure him for 40 minutes,

like that's a lot for a rookie. And somebody who's still getting acclimated and has had injuries and COVID, like it's a lot to if somebody like Pat Bev is going to be ball hounding you for for 35 minutes or whatever. It's a lot. And then also like Kade can play off the ball. He's an excellent shooter.

They don't have many guys who can play off the ball like Kate can. So it's, that's a, you want to utilize that as well. I think it's a combination of those things. I think right now, I think down the, right now I'm not sure that they want him handling the ball as much because as he gets acclimated to the speed and pace of the game. I don't think that'll be a forever thing. Like I think they do believe that sometime down the line like he could be a full-time ball handler.

But again, it's very much important for them to see how does he react to this long season, how does he react to high pressure? right now the turnovers are excusable because he's young and he's just getting into the groove. But if this is something that persists in year three and four, then you probably get a little more worried. Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of pressure on Cade right now, and a big part of that is just the lack of shooting around him. And that takes me to just one more prospect. I don't know if you've taken a hard look at him.

He's kind of rising up the draft boards, but because of some injury concerns, he's kind of up and down. A.J. Griffin of Duke, you know, do you know anything about how the org feels about him or how do you feel about him? You know, there's so much shooting upside there, but there's the injury concerns. How do you feel? Yeah, I haven't personally watched a ton of Duke. Like if I'm watching Paolo,

I'm usually watching Paulo clips. And I haven't really had any conversations with many in the organization about A.J. Griffin. I think they like him and they think he's a good player. I don't know if he would be like somebody they're looking at if they're picking in the top five. I don't get that sense. If they end up sliding to six or seven,

they win some games down the stretch and end up in like six or seven, maybe. I would still be a little surprise. I think there's guys like we haven't even talked about, like I think Jalen Duren is a guy that they like more. Johnny Davis from Wisconsin is a guy that they like more. I think, don't hold me to that, but I've just had more conversations about those guys.

Yeah, Griffin can shoot. The injury concerns are legit. I wonder about him at the NBA level, just in terms of he's going to be able to get his shot off as effortlessly as it looks at times at Duke. But, yeah, I like him. I'd be surprised if they're picking in the top five and are considering AJ Griffin.

And now a quick word from our sponsor. Hoops fans, the latest offer from Draft King Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA, it's too good to pass up. New customers can bet just $1 on any team and get $150 in free bets if they win. It's that simple. Everyone can play for huge cash prizes with Draft King's Daily Fantasy Basketball contests.

Draft Kings is giving all new customers a free shot at millions of dollars in total prizes with their first deposit. Download the Draft King Sportsbook app now. Use promo code TbPN, bet just $1 in any NBA team and get $150 in free bets if they win. That's promo code TPPN, a Draft King Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA. 21 plus minimum age and location requirements vary by jurisdiction. See draftkings.com slash sportsbook for fullest requirements and state-specific responsible gaming resources. Void were prohibited. minimum $5 deposit. Gaming problem, call 1-800-Gambler.

In Tennessee, call our text the Tennessee Red Line, 1-800-889-9-978-9. In Connecticut, call 888-78-9-77-or-com. Or visit c-cpG-org slash chat. In New York, call 87-8-H-O-P-E-N-Y or text H-O-P-E-N-Y or 467-369. I just have to ask. You mentioned Duren.

Now, there I feel, you can see a lot of parallels between him and André Drummond, who, of course, to say the least did not turn out as planned. Mike's not like Drummond at all. Oh, yeah. It's like a really big thing. I heard there's a bunch of you. Yeah.

Yeah, there are definitely a lot of people who don't think highly of drummond. But I mean, just for my part, I'm like I grew up watching like the going to work pistons, you know, the Red Wings of the late 90s and the mid-2000s. I mean, just these guys where you have these stars who are or your Keystone players who are all about the team and all about weighing it out there, you know, at all times, working hard and making the team decision, you know, never taking a shift off, never wait thinking about themselves, only wins. And Drummond, I think, was the antithesis of that. But you have, so you have Duren, who I think has the same concerns about Ronis, like just in general, Ronis. I mean, he's highly,

he's got the same upsides, you know, highly athletic and highly athletic and tall. But also, you know, questions about Ronis, but also, this is particularly in the, in the context of Weaver, who seems to place such importance upon character qualities, which, you know, I think that's, that's a very good thing to do. You have Duren with his questions about motor and focus and, and maturity to a degree. Do you don't think that, do you think that those would be, I'm just surprised to hear about, to hear that they, they might be interested in the likes of Dern. Yeah, I think, again, I don't, I don't think, like, Dern is in consideration in, like, if they have a top three pick or anything. I think it's more so

like when you get to the 7-8 range, that's when you like start thinking about like potential upside and guys right there instead of maybe. Like I would assume, let's say the Pistons pick seventh that happens. So you say goodness forbid. Chat, Paolo, Jabari,

Ivy. Who am I miss? Who else would be off the board? You think Kagan Murray? I could see him being like the Pat Williams of two years ago. Yeah. Like I I see Murray being off the board, like, where he's just, like, rises, like, all summer until the draft. And somebody, you know what I mean? Like, one of those guys.

Ben Math. And then the kid from Memphis, not Memphis. What's the kid, the guard from, that hasn't been able to play. Kentucky, Shaden Sharp. Shaden Sharp, yeah. So you say those are the seven. It's like, all right. Well, then are we sure, like, Johnny, like, then you look at Jalen Dern.

You're like, I see the upside potential room protector. We need a lot threat. mobile, athletic, like, is it him, Johnny Dave? Like, then you're kind of slim pickings. I just think outside like five or six, it's kind of, you get into like, maybe you get into more like, what do we need territory than necessarily like high upside. Yep. Yeah, you put up an article on the athletic and I don't want to spoil it just because I really

enjoyed it and there was just so much good info in there. Yeah, the good thing about where the pistons are right now is that anybody can help. And there's a really interesting stat. that just kind of illustrates just how much pressure there is on Cade Gunningham right now. And Mike has that stat. So I'll pass it along to him. Yeah. So in terms of possessions on which players are double team,

Cade's in the top 20 and in the entire NBA, he's the only rookie in that list. It's only he and Tyrese maxi in terms of rookies and sophomores. So he's in the top 20 there. And on that list, he is 13th in the total number of possessions. Excuse me, a percentage of total possessions on which his double team. And so really this guy's attacking, you know, for a rookie in this situation into just incredible double coverage. So, yeah.

I mean, I feel like James, like they spent a lot of attention in this last free agency on putting more shooting around K, putting more shooting on the team in general. I would say definitely in that capacity, things have very much knock on the plan. Yeah. And I think the stat you just read off. is also another reason why, like, they are very much looking to have another ball handler alongside Cade right now. Like, that's a lot of pressure for a first-year player.

That wears you down. So I don't think they really want to wear down Kate Cunningham in season one when they have bigger plans ahead. And yeah, there has not been a lot of shooting. I think, listen, I don't think there, it goes back to kind of what we're talking about with Olinic. I don't think for this team to look even a little bit better this year.

Like, I don't think there needs to be, like, a major change. Like, Kelly just has not shot the ball well this year. Like, that's one guy you expected to just hasn't. Frank Jackson, Sadiq Bay and Cade Cunningham all started shooting very terribly from three. Oh, yeah. So you look at their overall, overseason percentages. They're not great. But like, if you kind of factor in how they've looked since Christmas,

they're all been pretty good since Christmas shooting the ball. Then you look at like, obviously Killian is, I think he's improved in like in terms of spot up, but he's still just not shooting the volume. And he's still, the questions with his jumper are still there. Still having trouble. Definitely. Yeah. Still having a lot of trouble.

Like there's been like marginal like improvements, but like nothing significant. He looked at somebody like Trey Liles who, I mean, the stat, I remember I tweeted the stat like he shot better on covered threes than wide open threes. Like he was 21% on wide open threes. Like guys that you just really expected to hit like these type of shots are just, you just weren't. So, like, I don't think, yes, does they need to be more shooting, especially on the perimeter? Yes, of course.

But, like, they've just kind of, the guys he expected to shoot okay, like haven't even really shot okay this year. And I think that's been tough. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, speaking of adding pieces around K, just adding pieces in general, free agency. So somebody you've identified as a target, perhaps of interest for the Pistons, is Jalen Brunson. Now, I'm not a big Brunson fan. Well, actually, I mean, I think he's a good player. What I don't like all that much about him is that he is fairly ball dominant.

You see him, he's got, I think, like a 20% three-point attempt rate right now. The Mabs do fairly well with him and Luca on the floor, but how much of that is Luca and how much is Brunson? And, yeah, what do you feel? I like, what's your opinion as to why you think the org might have that sort of interest in Brunson given that he is a fairly ball dominant player? Yeah, I mean, if I was playing with Luca, when I got the ball, I get shots up, too, to be honest, because I mean, I don't know the next time I get shots up.

But all the jokes aside, I mean, he's a guy that good ball handler, I think in terms of culture fit fits in perfectly. He's going to get after it defensively. A guy who can create his own shot, I think would be a nice one-two combo playing alongside Kate as a guy who can spot up and hit open threes. As a guy who can penetrate and kick out. I think he is a good fit. I do think, yes, he does shoot a lot of shots, but I think that Dallas team really needs him to. Like, I don't think that Dallas team on paper is, like, very good. like i legitimately like how many guys can self-create on that team outside of luga it's it's really

just brunson and then you're talking about like maybe dory and finney smith so it it's a weird team but i think the idea of brunson does fit alongside kate like i think that defensively that could be a really good back court um i i think brunson is really good at getting his own shot i trust him as a spot-up guy. I think he's just a really good fit. But I could understand, like, what you're saying, like, maybe you don't trust that the ball will move or anything like that. And because of that, maybe you see, like, a little bit of Jeremy where it's like big numbers, bad team guy with him. But I don't know. I kind of, I've always been a Brunton fan. Like, I think he has more to offer than what he's shown. And he's shown a lot already. Yeah, I mean, there's been

some talk about not really a bidding war because very few teams have cap space, but that there will be some competition for a service. New York's been brought up Dallas. Of course, you know, Mark Cuban has made reference to luxury tax. How one says he'll try to match any offer. Do you think it's a situation which the Pistons would just put out a modest offer and then whatever happens happens? Or do you think that they would really go hard in an effort to, to acquire him? I think they have a number. I would guess they have a number in mine. I don't think they start with that number. But I think they have a number in mine and would be willing to go maybe put in a second bid and go there. Yeah, my guess is they have a number in

mind that they, if we could get Jalen Brunson at this number, let's do it. I don't know what that number is, though. And if they draft end up drafting, for example, the likes of Ivy, though, I would imagine that plan might be out the window right away though. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. This is really more of an A side, but I'm so glad that you mentioned that the Mavericks are bad. I know they've made the playoffs and they're a fun team because of Luca, but to me, they're like a cautionary tale. And this really just kind of ties back into what we were talking about earlier about not skipping steps and, you know, being patient with the rebuild. The Mavericks really don't have a lot of ways to improve their team significantly at this point.

Like they kind of have what they have and they have to pay for their talent. And I mean, there was that head scratcher of a trade where they got rid of Porzingis. Like, I don't know where they go from here. And once you're kind of in like luxury tax territory, like you are really restricted in terms of team building. So that's just another consideration that really needs to be made when you're talking about when it's time to compete and pivot into competing. So, yeah, that's really just more of an A side.

But I wanted to ask you, the fan base, again, a lot of people want the Pistons to pursue guys like DeAndre Ait and Miles Bridges. Do you see anything like that happening, like, realistically? I don't know. It's tough. I think that there is a possibility, like, they put in bids just to, like, see what happens. But, like, I don't think, I don't know. I think Bridges more than Aden makes sense.

But I also think those guys are going, or with two teams that are showing, like they have seen the importance of these two guys to their respective ball clubs. Like, I mean, is there a team better than the sons in the NBA? Like, why would you want to break that up?

Is the Hornets are a center away from like actually being interesting? Like, why would you want to break that up? Yeah, I think the Pistons maybe like do their due jillel. and put in offers. My guess is just I don't think they're willing to break their backs to get any of these guys just because they don't have to. Like they can slow play this again. Like I think most people, like I said, even if somebody can't withstand one more rebuilding

year, they'll be back when the team is good if it's good again. Like it is what it is. So I don't think they'll break their backs for any of these guys because the 2023 class is just much better. But if I think there is a number for all three that they would that they would go to and feel comfortable with, it's just a matter of the other teams would go there to, which I'm sure in most cases they would. Yeah, I'm with you. I just, I just figured I'd have to ask. And then if, if not that, what do you think the Pistons might do with their cap space? This is the first time that they've had cap space in a long time. Blake Griffin's money is coming off the books. Do you think

they're going to try to get creative with it in terms of asset acquisition? Do you think they might try to take on salary, anything like that? Yeah, I think so. I think that's a, possibility, pick up some draft picks. I think it's possible maybe they start looking at trading some of the younger guys to get in a more prominent player. I think that's lower on the list. I would be surprised if that happened, but that's a possibility. I think what you said is possible, like just taking on contracts to get assets, using it to do more trial runs on guys, start maybe building out the role players on your roster. I think they just, have possibilities, and this is the first time in a long time that the Pistons have had more than

one, like, lane to go down. And I think that's most important. If you're a fan, like, and you're invested in this team during this rebuild, the most important thing is that this team has options. What they do with those options, that's, we can evaluate that when that gets here, but having the possibility to do a few different things is very important in something that the franchise hasn't had in a while. Yeah, definitely. Do you think, like, I know that 2023 has some guys coming available, though it's, it's really hard to say. in today's MBA, you know, in the age of the extension, exactly what's going to happen.

But do you think that if 20203 doesn't pan out, we might see the Pistons possibly push back as far as 2024 when it comes to spending that money? I'd be surprised. I'd be really surprised. But you never know. I think this front office after the last few years of being in the type of financial crunch that they were in terms of making roster moves,

I think they're going to be very, very much so more cognizant of the financial situation. I don't think they'll just throw stuff out there to try to rush and put something together. Like even if they kick the can down the road again, like I think that's something that they would strongly consider rather than just like, okay, we got to put something on the floor that might make the playoffs. But maybe, I don't know. I'm very curious. I'm curious to find that one out. Troy said he doesn't expect this to go five years, but he also said he doesn't have a timeline on. that. So listen, I'm, I said it earlier. I'm in the camp of being as patient as you can be. I think

when you know, I think you'll know when it's time to turn the corner. And whether, I even think, like, if there's something that happens this summer, whether it's through the draft or you have a really good chance at getting one of the three big guys in free agency, I think you should start aiming for the playoffs next year if that happens. Like, I think you'll know in the organization when it's like, okay, like I think we should start building this thing out. Like, I just think you know. I don't think there's no need to rush it. Yeah, the only, I mean, the only, the big name that comes up, and I know who's very

connected to Michigan is Devin Booker. That's not until 2024, however. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It would be very surprising. Really, any organization these days, like a, just hanging on for four years isn't really something that happens all too often, definitely. So just got one final question.

And this is when it comes to, you know, what's pressure. there might be from elsewhere. I know we've heard Mark Stein say, for example, on the subject with Jeremy Grantrade, that Arn'tellum's actually the guy with the loudest voice in the room. And there's always the consideration of Tom Gores, who, I think to his credit, has really stepped back in this situation and just let the professionals handle it.

Is there anybody who might basically come in, who's got more of that hard power, more of that decision-making power than Weaver might come in and make that decision for him rather, you know, did you see that possibly happening? I mean, just as fans were completely unaware of the power dynamics within the organization. I would say, I know that it's been misconstrued like lately. I think everything is Weaver's call.

Like Weaver has the final say to take to Tom Gores. I think if anybody is like, if anybody gets impatient and wants this thing to get moving, it's Tom. He would be the only one that could do that. I think, I think Arne is on board. for rebuilding this thing and being patient. I think he's very much on board for it. I think Troy is as well. I think the only one would be Tom getting antsy

and the team not maybe winning too many games over the next two, three years. And then I could see him making the call down, like, okay, we've got to try to turn this thing around. But in terms of like the day-to-day front office, yeah, like when it comes to the Jeremy Grant thing, like I don't necessarily think there was like a, from what I understand,

it's not like a power struggle. I think there's people Troy leans on. Obviously, he has more of a personal connection to Jeremy Graham. I don't think Troy is opposed to trading Jeremy Graham. He even said in the Q&A, he's like, we'll revisit anything that makes our team better down the line. Like, he hasn't closed the door or said that Jeremy's not getting traded. I just think that in that moment, there was nothing there that he wanted to enticed him to make the trade. He doesn't have the same personal connection with Jeremy as Arne.

So maybe Arne was like, well, if we can get something, let's do it. Like, I don't think it's as much as like Troy is like, And Arn's like, yes. Like, I don't think that's it. I think it's just a room full of collaborators. I wouldn't say a room full of. I think Troy has people. He leans on.

Arn is one of them. And it's a collaboration. I think that's pretty, I know Pistons fans might not think so just because there's always been the weirdness about like, what is going on in the front office since Ed Stefanski was named senior advisor instead of GM and all that stuff. It's very much like, Troy has the final say. He was brought in to do this.

Arn gives thoughts. Ed gives thoughts. Guys like Josh Bartolstein give thoughts. George David, Troy's assistant GM give thoughts. Like it's pretty common practice around the league for that's how this stuff is running. I would say Troy, I would say a lot of the, I would say the majority of everything is the final call is Troy. He's the one who takes it. If he has something he wants to do, he takes it to the owner. All right.

That's great to know. So, yeah, I think that'll be up for this episode. Thank you again, once more, James, for taking your time coming on here to talk with us. Hey, thanks for having me. James Edwards from The Athletic. They got a promo going on right now. You can check that out on his Twitter. And as always, folks, thank you for listening.

Catch you in the next episode.