Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 87: Winning While Tanking, Kelly Olynyk’s Positive Impact, & Saddiq Bey Doing the Right Things

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

This episode discusses how to enjoy wins while still hoping for a proper tank, Saddiq Bey's ever-continuing improvement, Kelly Olynyk's assets versus those of Isaiah Stewart, how to fix Killian Hayes, the current frontrunners for NBA MVP, and more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back, everybody to driving to the basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike, joined tonight by Tommy, just a two-man podcast tonight. Tommy, how are you doing? I'm good. How are you, man? I'm doing okay. So, we're just launched right into one major topic about the Pistons lately. They've begun winning to a certain degree in, I believe the month of February. I suddenly, oddly enough, don't have the stats in front of me. And January, late January. They have won a certain number of games. So, yeah, they came into the All-Star break. They won that crucial game against the Celtics.

I was happy about that one. They've won a few games lately, and it's felt really different. I'm sure we're going to talk about that because I know on this show, I think we're both fairly pro-tank, maybe me more than you, but we're not upset with losses. So it's been interesting. Yeah. So, yeah, over the last four games prior of tonight, we're recording this just after the game against the Wizards. and the Pistons had won three of their previous four, winning against the Celtics,

went against the Cavaliers, went against the Hornets. So I suppose this segment is kind of going to be about how to enjoy wins while still loving the tank. And, yeah, last season, I've said this in the show many times. I mean, it got real stressful for me near the end of the season because I was so stressed about the team needing to lose

and that wasn't very enjoyable. I occasionally still feel that way. But it's worth noting that this team was not meant to be this bad. A lot of things went wrong. Like Jeremy Grant missed a long stretch. Kelly O'Linnick missed a long stretch. Sidique Bay was a walking disaster for the first 25, 30% of the season. The team was shooting comically poorly for a long time. And Isaiah Stewart progressed. Jeremy Grant has had a bumpy road. So all sorts of things are happening. So in the context of these wins, it's worth keeping in mind that the team is not meant to be quite this bad. Yeah, definitely. For me, it's really

more a matter of, I want the team to protect its draft position, but if there's an opportunity for a win that just means a little more, I'm okay with it. I'm still a fan. Like, when I'm watching the games, as much as I come on here and I talk about how important the draft position is, I'll still get hyped for a good win. I'm happy to beat the Celtics. I'm happy to beat Evan Mobley and the Cavs. It's really just a matter of like, yeah, no, we can afford this win. We can afford this loss. And right now, as we're recording this right after the Wizards game, we're actually tied with Orlando in terms of record for worst in the league. So both teams are 15 and 47. And yeah, in one sense, that's awful. But in another sense, like, if we keep this up, we're guaranteed that

top five pick and in a draft where it's kind of, it's not so great once you get past like seven or eight. That's not the worst thing in the world. So even before that. I'll take it. Yeah, I feel like it's really two-man draft at this point. I feel like you're considerably higher on Jaden and I am. But kind of feel like it's Jabari Smith and then Chet and then a significant drop off from there. But, you know, the positive of that is that I would say the difference between three and five is not very significant. So that's minor solace. But, yeah, the Pistons, so playing better lately, they put together a stretch also in early to mid-January of three wins and six games. And then they've won one of their next 12.

And I think it's a little brutal on the players. I think it's a little bit taxing even on a lot of on a lot of family. I'm just speaking for myself on me, even. I'm pretty pro tank. But I think you and I have both changed quite a bit in our perceptions. Like early last season, when Grant and Plumlee were signed, we were both kind of pissed because it's like just go with, you know, just a 15-man roster of young players and lose every game.

and I don't think that's really the most productive way to go about it. And I think it's nice for a young roster to get some wins. It's hard to lose constantly. And I don't think that's the greatest thing for development. Right. Yeah, no, if we had gone that route 15 young players, we probably would have been processed Sixers bad. And, you know, it's easy to lose the locker room if you're just going to be losing by 30 every night.

I'm really happy, especially lately, even the losses that we've had, even tonight against the Wizards, they've been close losses. And, I mean, heartbreakers, it's like you lose. Yeah, some of them, yes. Early on in the season, yeah, we had some pretty unwashable games. Recently, so the Pistons against the Grizzlies and the Hornets, this is on February 10th and 11, lost by a combined, I think, 57 points in those two games. I mean, they got annihilated.

Oh, actually, excuse me, you had the other game before that against Dallas. It was a combined 77 points or something like that in over a three-game span. So recently it's been more competitive. competitive. Of course, the wins against the Cavaliers and the Celtics, they were really in the game in the loss against the Celtics as well, and the loss against the Wizards kind of a couple of weeks ago. And on the one tonight, of course, the Pistons lost by one. So that's a good loss. Those are the losses you want. Yeah, you're thinking about the losses last year. We're kind of down the stretch. There was this perception of competitive losses where, honestly, looking back at the final scores, it's not that they were super close every night, but I don't know, it just felt a lot more doable because it was shorter season, much more hyped up draft class maybe. Oh, absolutely. It was just a lot easier to deal with this season. It's been the whole time.

One, we've had higher expectations because we had Cade. We expected more wins. Maybe we expected just more good things this season. Because we functionally brought back a lot of the same pieces, and we added Cade, and there was some more, just time for everybody to gel, and we've just been about as bad as last year. Maybe a little bit better for a few different reasons. But yeah, no, it's still about, to me, it's still about watching the development that happens. And it's still happening slowly.

But, you know, over that greater body of work, we're what, 60-something games into the season? You're starting to see it more. 62, actually. We are really looking forward to this season. And, yeah, like you said, it hasn't been as expected. I think we expected to see more positive signs that, you know, certain players have begun to come around lately. but yeah last season I mean the team was the competitive losses primarily came in the early to midseason I mean down the stretch when the team is really trying to guarantee its drop position there were a lot of bad losses and I think we were kind of fine with that I remember the last two games against the nuggets and the heat I was so stressed out like you know I was calculating uh calculating the standings like does it make any of it makes sense for yokch to play in this game and in terms of where Denver wants to end up and the teams they're playing against the answer was no but yokech is the man and one of wanted to play in every game. So he played and the Pistons got destroyed. And, you know, the heat

is it going to make sense for Boutwe to play? I don't think he played. The Pistons got destroyed anyway. So a lot went right last year in that capacity. But, yeah, one of the reasons the Pistons have seen a bit of an upswing lately, I believe, is Kelly Olinick coming back and actually playing well. And I know you've got a lot to say about that, Tommy. Yeah. It's, it's, tonight was a really good example of the kind of impact that Kelly Olinic can bring. But yeah, you made the point that now he's looking better. He did start off pretty rough. But tonight it's really illustrated to me just how important spacing is, especially at the

five. And it's not even just necessarily spacing. It's just the difference between a guy like Kelly Olinick running the pick and roll with Cade and Isaiah Stewart. I think recently Cade has been struggling or there's a, he's looked worse. He's forcing a lot more mid-range pull-ups. It looks like he's just having a tougher. time, and this is ignoring the fall of trouble that's everybody's been talking about lately,

just in the pick and roll. When Cade and Isaiah Stewart run it, it just doesn't work most of the time because I think teams have just been scouting us and scouting Isaiah Stewart, and they realize, yeah, this guy doesn't really put a lot of pressure on the rim as a role man because he's not going to go up for a lob. And if you just put two, if you put both defenders on Cade Cunningham, he's going to have a really tough time getting it to Stewart because he can't throw it up and put it. it in for a lob and he can't drop it off down low. So you're seeing a lot of these tough, tough pull-ups.

And Kate is just really struggling with it. And then tonight, against the Wizards, at one point, Kelly Olinick was plus 17 and Isaiah Stewart was minus 11. And the reason why is because Kelly Olinick, with just a respectable jump shot, is opening up driving lanes for guys like Cade Cunningham, Jeremy Grant, and Sadiq Bay. In the final minute of the first half, Isaiah Stewart picks up a foul and they put Kelly O'Linnick in. And Kelly O'Linnick, just his presence alone, the next two players were both dunks. That just doesn't happen with Isaiah Stewart. So I think that's really just, that's been the biggest revelation for me in this game.

I'd like to see more of Kelly Olinick and Cade Cunningham sharing the floor. Yeah, I agree. Stewart, we've said it before. I'll say it again, has significant issues. I mean, the combination of being undersized and not a very vertical player is problematic. We saw it significantly on defense and two grand offense tonight. Gafford is taller. Gafford is an excellent leaper.

And Stewart, in certain situations, is just helpless, particularly on defense. And Gaffert just dunk over him. There's nothing Isaiah can do, you know. Bless his soul, so to speak. Isaiah, he's a great, by all accounts, a great guy, and he never takes a shift off. He's always working real hard. though at times this season, he seemed a little bit demoralized. But yeah, his general role on offense, and this is on Dwayne Casey,

is to make a perimeter handoff and then go clog the paint. And it's resulted in a ton of three-second calls. That's the least of the problems of that situation. It's hard on everybody. That's hard on everybody who wants to drive into the interior. And to a degree, it's the fact that he can't space the fluoride. is not ideal. My thoughts when he was drafted, Isaiah Stewart's, to justify being drafted 16th, has to be able to do two things. He has to be able to switch on defense. He can do that.

We're talking switching when he ends up on the perimeter and he can defend on the way on in. And the second thing is he has to be able to space the floor. And right now, he struggled with that early on case he has said he doesn't even want Isaiah doing it, which is kind of silly to me. Yeah, I still think that so much of his utility, because the way he's effective down low, and he has looked better in a vacuum. Like he's averaging his 10 and 10. over the past month or whatever. He's looked better if you ignore his impact on other players. But I think that it hasn't changed for me.

I said months ago that I think his best role would be as a low post center off the bench. You know, he's going to get a chance to bully inferior players compared to NBA starters. And he's going to get his, you know, his quick 12 points in however many minutes. And it's going to be a much better time for him. And he's not going to be taking away so much from him. guys like Hayd Cunningham, Jeremy Grant, Sadiq Bay, because those guys are actually looking to drive inside and finish, and they just can't because the paint is clogged. It's like you said.

So I just maybe down the stretch, I don't know if they're looking to do this, but maybe you try to swap the two, Kelly Olinick and Isaiah Stewart. I know that we like Isaiah Stewart's defense. It's night and day on that end. I don't think the offense looks so much better. Yeah, the offense looks better. I mean, you always have to, for anybody on offense, any player whatsoever, you have to look at their overall impact.

Like, for example, you look at Rudy O'Barre on offense, like super high efficiency paint score and then pretty darn good on the pick and roll. But the fact that he can't space the floor is a consideration because it's really nice to be able to space the floor. Any perimeter player who can't space the floor is a liability to a degree. Tomon Udialo has that issue, I mean, players play off of him. And when he gets the ball at the perimeter, he's going to make about 25% of his threes. Killian, whom we'll talk about later, is a non-spacing threat.

I mean, these things aren't as evidence on a bad team. They're much more evidence. When you look at a good team where none of these things, they have no players who actually have, who are spacing liabilities, except for Matisse Thibel, but at this point, he's playing alongside so much talent that it doesn't really matter. That's when you can buck the mold. Like the Warriors would field three shooters,

but they're three of the best shooters of all time. When you have an enormous amount of superstar talents, you can buck any meta. So Kelly is drastically better. at breaking down defenses. You break down defenses, get them scrambling. You're going to get better opportunities. Also is a spacing threat, which means he draws the center out to the perimeter and that opens up lanes, whereas Isaiah Stewart closes lanes. So, yeah, Kelly, when he can shoot, great. That's high efficiency offense. He's great at pump faking and driving into the interior that forces somebody to come help,

and that opens up somebody else. And Tommy, you love, I know the gold standard for you is Eric Spelster's offense where you break down the defense and then you swing it around and swing it around and swing it around and somebody gets an open three. Yep. Yeah. Driving kick. Drive and kick and swing and swing and swing. And Spolstra, who should win coached the year, one of these years, he is a coaching genius.

But it started his career coaching an enormously talented team. And I think that's really undercut, you know, the credit, prevented him from getting the credit he deserves. I don't think that Olinick will ever replace Stewart in the starting lineup. I think Dwayne KC is not particularly. you're really flexible in any capacity. And I think he just likes Olinic off the bench, much like he liked Frank Jackson off the bench when Frank was playing well. Sure.

And, you know, it's maybe it is sending a bad message to Stewart. If 20 games left, you're like, all right, you're going to come off the bench now. Kelly Lennox is going to take your spot. I get that. It's just that, you know, I still don't think that Isaiah Stewart is the long-term solution at the five, at least a starter, rather. So, you know, it's just another consideration. We get to see what it looks like when somebody is playing the five who is capable of,

it's not even, again, necessarily about being a spacing threat or a lob threat. It's just about clearing up the driving lanes and allowing guys to get inside because these guys want to attack, but they get stopped up 10, 15 feet away pretty consistently. And it's very, very frustrating. Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's a very good reason why traditional centers are drastically, drastically less common in the NBA than they used to be. and for example, why the term stretch four no longer exists, you have to be able to shoot its power forward,

except in very unusual situations that involve an enormous amount of talent, like Janus, for example, who still needs to be surrounded with four shooters in the playoffs in order to make it work. And just having guys, four or five guys in the four who are able to shoot opens up so much. It makes things so much harder on the defense. Whereas having four guys in the four, excuse me,

four shooters in the four in a center who can't shoot, present certain challenges. makes defense a lot, excuse me, the offense a lot more predictable. And when it's a guy who can't vertically space, who can't catch lobs, like Stewart, it gets that much easier. So, yeah, Olinic has been good. And one of the reasons the Pistons were so bad was that Olinick first was not with the roster. And then he had a slow return from COVID, excuse me, not from COVID from his knee injury. Though I think he got COVID also. I believe he actually got it right after he returned, but I could be remembering wrong. Maybe that was Jeremy. Yeah, it was right on the tail end of that

recovery. Yeah. So it should be interesting to see how things go, but definitely he adds a different dimension and also his firepower off a bench, which often kind of has its struggles, though actually has been fairly good across the course of the season. But some of that was Trey Liles, who isn't with the team anymore. Had a great game for Sacramento recently. Josh Jackson has played five minutes since he made it to Sacramento. But it's been rightly pointed out that he was not good with the Pistons and has a lot of problems. You know, hard worker, but Again, lack of, he is not a spacing threat. So, and he comes to the opportunity cost of being ball dominant and making bad decisions, too.

So, yeah, that's, that is those guys. So moving on to another bright spot, because Kelly has been won. And, uh, good us to Kelly for that, uh, for that overtime win. That was, that was fun to see. Oh, yeah. No, that was ridiculous. I can't believe we finally broke that winning, or that losing streak. Yeah.

That was another one. Very happy to win that game. Yeah, I remember. very vividly the last time the Pistons had beaten the Hornets. So the Pistons, the 2017-2018 Pistons, the opening night roster was still the best one that the Pistons have fielded since 2008, which Chanty played like four games with the Pistons before he was traded. And there was that opening night game.

Stanley Johnson went like zero of 13, but it was really good to suck from the shooting. And that was early on in that season. That was the 14 and 6 start. The Pistons really played a lot of good teams. Avery Bradley was punching enormously above his weight to bias was punching above his weight. Reggie Jackson was punching above what his weight was at that point. And the new offense was still fresh and the wheels fell off of everything.

But yeah, I vividly remember that. That was still an exciting, an exciting time. That went against the Warriors still, I think, and against the Celtics are two of the greatest wins. The Pistons have logged in like the last 10 years. So, yeah, so in any case, yeah, moving on to another bright spot, Sadieke Bay. We just have a lot of good things to say about Saddique. in general lately, especially after his rough start.

Yeah, yeah, he's finally taking the right shots, I think, and consistently making them. I have his stats here over his last five games, 17.6 points, almost 39% on threes, on almost seven attempts per game, and it's just, it's encouraging. I said almost seven attempts, over seven attempts per game from distance. So it's incredibly encouraging, and the thing that I think has impressed me the most has been the way he's been taking it inside and finishing with strength. You know, I think you mentioned this when right after you had gone and gotten pretty good seats and seen these guys in person, just how big there.

I think you noted just how enormous Sadiq Bey is. The guy is built like an ox, and he is taking full advantage of his strength. He doesn't have the most in the way of a burst in terms of a first step, but it doesn't matter. He's just kind of muscling his way into these guys, and he gets them on their heels, and they don't have enough to stop him. And he's just taking it all the way. And he's not finishing with hops.

He's just bulldozing his way in and finishing some tough layups. But they're going in. And yeah, they look good. Yeah, he's doing a lot right at this point, whereas earlier in the season, he was doing a lot wrong. I think he was just put into a very bad situation by the coaching staff. So what's the digs has been bringing to the floor? I mean, he just brings a lot of assets.

He can shoot threes in people's faces. that's a very nice skill to have, like a very, very nice skill to have. He's been doing some pull-up shooting from three as mixed results, but that's an excellent skill to have. He's initiating a lot of offense from within the arc in two particular ways. He'll grab the ball relatively close to the basket, where speed is much less of a fact, excuse me, yeah, where speed is much less than the factor of a factor,

and Sadiq is not a bursty player by any means. So the speed is a lot less of a factor because you're not worrying about defenders just getting in front of you or a guy's coming to help. He can use his strength to his advantage, kind of bowl his way toward the basket. He's been making the right read for the most part and making the right pass rather than trying to force things. Something that he's been doing that's interesting on offense

is kind of like the Carmelo shot where T. Chab steps a little bit and just sizes up the defender and then takes kind of a fade away mid-range shot, which he's doing decently well on. But also his read, Sadiq's a smart guy. his reads are very good. Like tonight, there was one play in which he caught the ball on the perimeter. He was able to analyze the situation very quickly. He realized that he was up against Kisbert, who was not a quick defender, and he had a few feet of space.

And he just beat Kisper to the outside right away without hesitation. He just took the ball right around him and had a relatively open layup. So he's just been doing a lot of things right. I don't think on a team with more talent, he's going to be scoring this much. But we both said it. if he's the fourth best guy in a championship team, that's an excellent player. That's like a me called Bridges player. Yeah, this is the first, I want to say the Boston game was the first time where I felt

like, it might have been the Charlotte game. It was the first time I thought he might be a third option on a good team. And then I kind of reevaluated it like a day later after I'd kind of come down. I was like, it's probably still a fourth option, but he's, again, he's still impressing me and he's making these rapid improvements. And he's got a lot of responsibility right now because, again, this is a team that is pretty devoid of talent. There's just a few guys who get a lot of attention.

And Scott & Report and Sadiq Bay is certainly one of them. And he's still knocking down these difficult, difficult shots. You talked about being able to knock down shots in guys' faces. You think about that game winner he had against the Spurs earlier this season. And then you think about there was one shot against Boston where he knocked one down in Tatum's face with a hand up. And it's just such an impressive shot. He has such a quick, compact release. And it doesn't matter.

He doesn't get that much elevation on his threes, but they're going in anyway. Just a phenomenal showing from Sadiq Bay lately, and I hope he can keep it up down the stretch, and I hope he continues to make this progress as a, like a bully of ball player on the interior because he just has that level of strength. Do you feel like he could maybe be like a long-term power forward, or do you think he's just, he doesn't have enough balance for that? I don't think it really matters. I mean, if you have like a small forward who can jump, for example, like the forward

positions are pretty interchangeable at this point for a lot of players. It's not like the NBA, actually for a little while, kind of like you had a lot of guys who could flex between center and power forward. And then you kind of for a few years, it was basically, you didn't really have many of those guys. It was mostly just centers and forwards you could play at either forward position. And you've swung back a little bit to some power forwards you can play center. And I think Sadiq Bay may have some future as a small ball center, just because he can hang physically with a good amount of the centers in the league. There is no way that Sadiq Bay is 210 pounds. I mean, this guy's, that's what he's listed at, or 205. I don't remember. This guy's at least

215, 220. So, what did you say? He's yoked. He's joked. He's jacked. Yeah, he's really strong. Yeah, he's really strong. It's true. So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if that's a particularly important distinction. I mean, one, I think small forward in some ways is a good position for him because he is facing off against slightly smaller guys, you know, versus the guys who just exclusively play at power forward. But, and also, yeah, I mean, he's not quick enough to beat like the slower power forwards off the dribble. So I think he could really play it either one. I don't think it really matters. He's been playing back at small forward with Jeremy Grant back and he's done pretty well. But it depends on whom you're on the floor with

also as far as rebounding. Like Hamadu can really get up and he can get back to the basket really quickly. So that might be less important. Yeah, as long as he keeps knocking down these threes and forcing these really, really honest closeouts, he's going to be able to take advantage of that, put his shoulder into guys and just take him all the way to the hoop. It's something Christian Wood used to do. He was a decent three-point shooter and he loved to be the guy who initiated contact on closeouts by, you know, just put your shoulder into the guy, get him leaning, get him off balance, and then just take it all the way to the hoop.

Sadieq-Bah doesn't have, like, I don't think on straight-line drives with the defender on his hip, I don't think he has the dunk, but he can lay it up and finish it in. Sort of, I mean, I don't think he's straight-line drives very much. I think straight-line drives are really a weakness for him. He tends to curl and end up on the opposite side of the basket, not for, you know, to still curl from one, you know, generally from the left side and then end up putting up a way up from the right. But straight-line drives, I think it's too easy for guys to keep up. him or too easy for guys to end up in front of him. But I've been very impressed on how he's

adjusted to play toward his strengths and force a lot less offense. He still sometimes ends up, as George Blah would put it, you know, caught amongst the trees. I think that sort of refers to bigger guys. But it's basically a situation in which he's got a bunch of guys around him and a bunch of defenders around him and he doesn't have, he's not able to elevate and he, and he takes a bad shot. There's still some shots. I'd like to see removed from his repertoire. And who knows if that mid-range pull-up will ever really come along. What I don't like from is the floaters. He's just not good at the floaters.

I don't think this shot he should be taking. But it's nice that he can attract attention on the way of the basket. He's been making the right pass much more than he was earlier in the season. And he can make passes out of the post as well. So I've been impressed also just a great team guy, like unequivocally a great team guy. So that's been fun to see. But yeah, I would say third option on a championship team is a star is a star player, like pretty much unequivocally.

If you got two superstars, then this can be a slightly worse player. It will still be a, if Sadiq can be like a 16 point per game score and shooting threes on high volume, particularly difficult threes and creating some offense off the dribble while being good defense, that's a really good player. Yeah, it's definitely one that you want to have around. And depending on who you get in the draft this year, his responsibilities go down and you can just focus on, you know, feeding him those higher efficiency shots, pardon me, and just focus on his strengths. I think right now you're still asking a lot of him. And he has cut out some of the

really difficult offense that he was struggling with early on in the year. And I think that's a big reason why his stats and percentages have improved. But overall, I mean, if you just, you want that guy on your team. Absolutely. I mean, his improvement phenomenal. Yeah, it's, it's really good to see. And that's what we were hoping for him. We didn't really. We haven't really seen. that progress from Isaiah and we because I figured Isaiah would be coming in and doing we did have last season which is which is just attracting gravity and that's you can't leave them open from mid range like you have to cover them closely from midrange which spaces certainly spaces the floor in its own way or he's going to shoot and if you're hitting

like 50% from mid range that's great I want to make this point so there are average in the averages in the NBA I think 53% effective field go percentage of the average right now and like 56% for shooting something like that. Maybe it's 52% effective field goal percentage. It should be noted that that includes transition. Transition is very high efficiency offense. I think teams average well, well over one point per possession. I don't have the stats in front of me, but it's very high efficiency offense.

The average right now in half court offense, I believe is 0.96 points per possession. If you're shooting 50% from mid-range, that's a very efficient shot. it's only equivalence to, you know, like 33% from three. But if you can create that shot, it's a very nice one to have your toolbag. So I figured he'd be shooting those shots, to be shooting threes. And that's what he needs to do to be a productive defensive, offensive player. I think Casey's notion that, you know, we can just focus on the inside and get him good there

as kind of a pipe dream, because I don't think Isaiah is ever going to be a net positive offensive player until he can shoot. another guy who has been, of course, the biggest disappointment from that draft class, unless you include Savan Lee and that the expectations for him are very low, is Killian Hayes. So Killian Hayes has a strong suit, great basketball IQ, great passing vision. He's a really good passer. He's a very good defender in certain situations. So let's talk about what needs to change with Killian in order for him to become a decent,

a positive value NBA player. Yeah, I mean, we all know what the biggest, problem is and it's still the shooting. I've talked a lot about how I think the confidence is a problem, and I still think it is to a certain degree. But off the bench, I actually think he's looked a lot. Well, a lot, no. I think he's looked better. I think he's looked more aggressive. But again, just looking at the shooting splits. So for his second year, he has played 49 games. He's getting close to that full season that everybody's talking about. And he is at 26.3% on threes, two and a half attempts per game and that is just way below a respectable number where people are going to guard you honestly

and until he gets his three ball up to just an acceptable percentage he's going to be a massive spacing liability and then somebody else his man is going to go and double team somebody because he's not going to attack and he's not going to put pressure on the rim and he's not spacing the ball so anytime he's on the floor if the ball is not in his hands he's an enormous negative and if the ball is in his hands you're kind of counting on the passing and you're hoping that he can get to the basket and penetrate and kick out because that's where he's at his best. But even that has not really happened. He still struggles to get all the way to the hole. Again, I think that he's been making slight improvements for the past few months. I think people are starting to notice that now, but it hasn't yet converted itself

into useful statistical improvement, I would say. I still think he's just like he's getting closer. He's like halfway there, but he's still not finishing strong. Yeah, he's still a significant minus. It's worth noting that his two point percentage is about 42%, which is egregiously bad, like incredibly bad. So yeah, Kalyan, I mean, we're far past the point in the NBA in which a non-shooter who's just handling the ball can be a positive player. I mean, again, there's some exceptions to this, like star level talents, Jimmy Belvoir, Yonnes and Titicumbo, and so on. There are not many of them. But here's how I like to think about player value.

So you have player contribution minus opportunity cost. Opportunity cost can be, you know, we've got this guy out there in place of a better player who would be contributing more. But also, like, you know, this guy, you put him out there in space and becomes an issue. Efficient offense becomes an issue because he can't shoot three as and he's a bad score. The ability to break down defenses becomes an issue because he's really not good at that. Killing comes with a very substantial opportunity cost. And it is not, opportunity cost is not nearly as apparent on a bad team because, you know, it's a bad team.

I mean, if you, if it's a good team and you put a guy like that out there, he will stick out like an absolute sort thumb. And, you know, if he can be at all, if there's any possibility of replacing him, he will be replaced. So, yeah, like you said, the three-point shooting has to come along. But there's more to it than that. He has to be able to break down opposing defenses reliably. and he still doesn't, like you said, he doesn't make it to the rim. He still shies off to the left or to the right occasionally. He's getting better with his right hand and takes a much lower percentage shot,

which getting fouled is much less likely. And it's very nice to draw fouls, high percentage offense. It's foul against the other team and so on. So it's been said, you know, if Killian could just shoot three, he's on high volume and a high percentage, then he could be Alonzo-like player. And I agree that might keep him in the NBA, though it's worth noting that Alonzo-like player needs to be in the right situation with really good creators next to him who free him from the need to do anything, but make perimeter passes, playmaking transition

and shoot threes. So Killian's never going to achieve his full potential on this team because he's just not the number one handler. Like we thought he'd come in as a pig and heavy, pick and real heavy guy. And he's a terrible pig and roll guard. and he's just, he's not good at breaking down defenses at all. And, like, you remember Tommy when we were talking about it. It's like, my opinion was that he could become like, you know,

eight to nineth, the best point guard in the league. If he could shoot stepback threes, if he had a good pull-up mid-range game. And if he were canny enough to get to the basket, despite his lack of, you know, is his very below average NBA athleticism. But he's done zero of those things. Yeah, I remember that I, uh, in the pre-draft process, I was like, okay, Well, if he can bring this step back three along, maybe he can be good. I was never particularly excited about him, but gosh, he just didn't bring any of it.

So I'm still happy that he's showing some improvement. I'm happy that they're bringing him off the bench now. I did not like his fit with Kate. I was never a big fan of that pairing. A lot of people who like that idea. Maybe still for the defensive potential because, I mean, they're still both good defensive players, but it's just not worth it. especially on the offensive end. We just talked about how much Isaiah Stewart inadvertently hurts the team

just by what he's not doing on the floor. Killing Hayes, he's doing the same thing, but on the perimeter, I'm not going to say it's a more direct detriment to Cade because Isaiah Stewart, the problems there are pretty bad. But it's really bad in its own way. I still think that when this team is ready to compete, or if they were trying to compete, Frank Jackson would be the ideal fit. But I think that what Corey Joseph is doing is it's still significantly more useful.

I know people don't like Corey Joseph, but at least Corey Joseph is shooting the ball fairly well. Not fairly well. Some of the pressure. Yeah. He's shooting the ball very well. I mean, Corey Joseph minus tonight's performance and I don't know how this would affect his stats, is about 42 and a half percent on three is it's well volume, but he's been very reliable on catching shoots, like very reliable on catch and shoots.

And he also just does the things, exclusively the things that the team needs of him. He is an excellent team player. And, yeah, I mean, James Edwards, who was on the show last week, said that the team wants him out there because they don't want to exhaust Cade by having him be the primary, you know, heavy usage ball handler at all times. And I'm coming around to the idea that you want a guy next to Cade who can take some of the owners and the handling off of him. I don't want Brunton, but I think you want, you want somebody. and like, you know, even for Yonison, no, even for Yonis, like Yonis and Tedocompo, for example, he's got Middleton who can create, he's an excellent shot creator, can create offense off the dribble. And you have Drew Holliday, of course, who can create his share of offense off the dribble as well.

And these are good things because Boudintholzer is an offensive simpleton. Yeah, it's like in the finals or in the playoffs in general, he needed one of three things. He needed one of his players to have an absolutely massive game that was going to have to be honest. He needed two of his players to have very good, two of his primary, those three, to have very good games or we needed all three to have pretty good games. But I digress. Yeah, it's just with Killian, obviously,

the three-point shot is your first step because you just have to have it. But in order for him to really capitalize in his potential enough to be a positive NBA player, he has to be able to drive into the interior and score at the rim at a decent clip. And if he can develop that mid-range game, great. He's been abominably bad at it so far. which is bizarre because he was actually a pretty,

he scored close to one point for possession on mid-range pull-ups in Europe. I don't know where his shot has gone. But he just, yeah, there's a lot he needs to do well because athleticism, being a highly athletic player isn't going to guarantee you success in the NBA, of course. But it is a high ceiling, it is a very good ceiling razor. It's also a high floor razor. If you are a guard in particular and you are not very athletic, you need to do a lot more well in order to be a positive NBA player

than does a guy who is just highly athletic. Like Hamadu could be a very good offensive player just because he can blaze to the basket. If he could shoot threes, he'd be a very good offensive player. Kalyan needs to do a lot more to make himself useful and also to capitalize on arguably his greatest strength, which is his core vision in passing. So I know we both feel this way.

You get more time. I don't see any reason not to give him the full four years. And they have to make that decision before next season. on his fourth year option. And I guess my guess is they'll pick it up and that would make perfect sense to you. Do you think they trade him before the end of that fourth year? Only if he's accrued some value. I mean, it's absolutely not worthwhile to sell as low as he would be sold right now.

Killian Hayes right now has reclamation value, reclamation project value. He's such an ineffective guard at the moment. And he's such a bad shooter. He just, he doesn't do anything well. Like the passing, yeah, he's a good passer, but he can't capitalize on that until he can break down defenses. And on defense, he has some biomechanics to work on. He's a good defender against guys who aren't too quick for him, but there are some players, a lot of players, especially guards who are too quick for him. And I think his first step is really significantly

impaired by the fact that he stands upright and that really decreases his ability to accelerate around screens or wherever else. Because even against bigger forwards, he does a decent job because he's got, like, this guy in 2K would have, like, the active hands badge, because he's very good at stripping the ball. But against really quick guards, he struggles, and that's a problem. But maybe that can be fixed as well. Whatever the case, this is a rebuild and you give him time. Speaking of active hands, just really quickly, Cade, the fouls.

What do you think? It's a problem. I think Dwayne Casey put it well that Cade is going for the ball with his hands, and that's a very good way to accrue a lot of fouls. I mean, you really want to be, for the most part, just relying on your feet and having your arms wide or having your arms up in the proper situations. It's just the speed of the NBA and in the talent level. If you're reaching in a lot, for most players, you're going to get a lot of fouls. And he knows it.

He knows it's not letting him stay on the floor. And I think it's just a matter of awareness. Yeah. I'm surprised that this has become a problem now because to start the year, he was a really good defender on all fronts. and I still think he is. It was really, I forget which broadcast it was. It might have been the Charlotte broadcast talking about how he's actually not a good defender. They don't know what they're talking about.

Like he's a very high IQ defender, effective, but his brand of defense is not, you know, blocking a ton of shots, getting his hands in there, going for strips and gambling. It's altering shots through position. Like, that's what he likes to do. And the refs, I've seen two changes with the foul calls, like two contributors. The primary one is definitely like swiping at the ball. The other one is that the refs are calling a lot more of those, you know, Cade gets in a guy's way and just uses his body and tries to make the shot more difficult or make them shoot around him and they're calling that a little bit more.

Not sure why. I hope not because I like that branded defense. The officiating is started out the year they were calling a lot less fouls. And I think I didn't talk to anybody at all. I didn't see anybody at all in any medium who didn't like that. I don't know what happened there. It was so nice to start the year. Like they just weren't calling it when the flops, the plays where guys are just hunting for contact.

I loved it when they stopped calling that. Don't reward that. It's not good for the game. It's not entertaining. I don't know why they switched up like 20 games in. I don't know. I mean, there's been a lot of parading to the foul line, and that's just not entertaining. I don't think it's good basketball.

As far as Kate being a really good defender, I agree to these, a smart defender and a good on-ball defender. he does get caught ball watching sometimes and ends up out of position and gives up threes. I think that's his greatest weakness on defense right now. But speaking of guys who draw fouls, let's do a little around the NBA talk. We do this very little on the show is, of course, a very piston-centric podcast, as it should be. Let's talk about where guys are in the MVP race. Honestly, this is all you, man. You watch a lot more NBA basketball than me.

I mean, why don't you lay down who's like the top three candidates? So I've got to say my number one be Joel Embed, number two is going to be Nicola Yolkich, number three, to Marta Rosen, and honorable mention to John Morant. Morant has just made such a step forward this year. I love the guy. He's a super hard worker. He's a real competitor. He's smart. He plays for his team.

He's like Westbrook would be if Westbrook were less of a stat pattern, much more of a team player, and have much more IQ. And we're much more versatile. He's shot the three better. Yeah. Yeah, Morant's, his three-point percentage was pretty good earlier in the season. I was like, dude, the guy's hitting like 36% on four threes per game is going to be completely unguarded. That's gone down. Oh, is it?

Yeah, he's still mostly been completely unguarded. The guy is freakishly athletic, like unbelievably athletic, like not just in his burst and is leaping, but his ability to contort his body. And he's got a great floater game. He's excellent at the rim. So it's just, it's a pleasure to. watch him and he's such a likable guy. Now, Demardo Rosen came out of nowhere. Before the season, I was like, okay, you put him with Levine, you're just smashing talent together for the sake of doing it.

These two players are going to make each other worse. But DeRosen has been incredibly good at creating offense off the dribble, particularly from mid-range. He's shooting upwards of 50% on like 10 attempts per game. Billy Donovan, I don't think highly of him as a coach, but he can just give the ball to DeRosen and say, do something with it, which is much what Casey did back in the day. and De Rosen will do something with it. I mean, he's been excellent at that, and he's been the best player on what's been a very good, on what's been a very good bull's team.

Yokic is Yokic. The guy is the best passing big man of all time. He's like basketball, the strategy of basketball, like the strategy of chess, you want to give your opponent nothing but bad options. And Yokic is excellent at doing that. Like, he'll post up on you. You can't double team him because he,

will find anybody on the court. Even with his back turns, he'll find guys on the court. You know, find guys in the corners. He had this ridiculous seeing eye pass in the recent game against Portland. He wasn't even looking. And he passed from the low block to the opposite corner. And it was right on, it was very close to right on target. Unfortunately, it was Monti Morris missed the shot, but it was an incredible pass. Like, sometimes it's like the guy opens up a singularity. And he's like got three guys on him. And suddenly the ball is, is, is, right in a shooting pocket of a guy, like 20 feet away. Yeah, so he's, and if you don't double him, he'll just bully you in the post. Like, when I was at that game against the nuggets, like I say,

Stuart, his muscles on top of muscles, and Yokich was pushing him around. So he's a great player. He's also a good three-point shooter to add to that. He's a decent mid-range shooter, I believe, though I could be wrong about that. Where he's not very strong his defense, he's nowhere near the liability he used to be, but he's not a strong defender. And that's, that's a decent. And that's, why I give the nod to Embed. The Sixers get a bad rep because they play in Philadelphia. But Embedd is a fantastically talented player. He is one of the best scoring big men of all time. He can score in almost every which way. He's become more of a pass with the season. He's had to do it because the biggest Simmons was out and Simmons is gone now. He can score from the post.

He can score on mid-range pull-ups. He can score from three. He's an extremely strong scorer in the interior. I mean, from the post, this guy is, there's nobody even remotely close to him in the league. And, but just in general, I mean, there's no real way to stop the guy. And he's also a major plus on defense. So he just does everything well. And I'm really, I'm not a huge heart and fan because I really like the way he plays. You can't deny he's an incredibly talented.

But he can, you know, he's really going to help him beat. So he's my number one right now. And I really think he deserves to win it. I think he's been very underappreciated for a long time. And it's been ignored that he really had to alter his game to accommodate Simmons, which is a very bad thing. Also just incredibly hard work on a team guy. So, all right, moving on, listeners submitted questions.

So number one, one thing I'm very interested in, does Hamadu handle the ball well enough to start with Cade? Obviously, his three-point shooting has to improve his start next season, but it's a worthwhile experiment. Now, you mind if I take the lead on this one? Yeah, I was going to say, it's all you. This is right up your alley. Yeah, so in the name of having a good handler, or a decent handler next to Cade, I think the answer is no. So I know this is a change in tune. We really appreciate having James Edwards on the show.

I really, of course, he has much greater. He has some insights into what the organization's goals and the reasons behind is their decisions that we don't, of course. And his insight on why Corey, well, basically Cade is almost invariably out there with another handle or was, I found very illuminating. So Hamadu is not a great handler. He's great at attacking the basket. He can make bounce passes, like reads on bounce passes. He's good at that.

In terms of kickouts, he's really not there yet. He's just his vision. I'm not, who knows, maybe we'll find out that he's a high IQ passer, but at this point he's not there yet. If you give him the ball, he's going to try to just drive in there. And it's a credit to him that even though defenders play off of him, he's still very difficult to stop. And I think Hamadu, who can shoot as a 20 point per game player,

who should be the starting shooting guard in the future. But even then, I would say you want somebody who can take the handling onus off of Cade. So right now, I would say just for Cade's sake, probably not. Yeah, no, this is a point that you've made pretty consistently over the season. It's exactly what you said. If Hamadu could shoot the three ball on just average percentage, he would be, They'd have to close out on him and he could attack all day. And then you're done.

You're absolutely done if you have to close out on him. Yeah, you're finished. Exactly. Dude has jet boosters on his back. But I think the better role, I agree with you, by the way. I don't think he's a good fit next to Cade. I think he's at his best when the ball is, yeah, right now. He's at his best when the ball is in his hands.

I think if you want to keep Hamadu long term, his best use, if you can keep him on a reasonable contract, try to pair a decent big with him, be it a power forward or a center off the bench, two guys who can run pick and rolls. I think your idea to give the ball to Hamadu and just run a bunch of picking rolls and see if he can make it all the way to the rim with some screening action is a good idea. And I think it's more effective off the bench because, again, bench competition is different from starters. And you're going to be able to take more advantage of the reduced athleticism, especially

if you're Hamadu Diallo. But no, as far as Hamadu and Kade, I know people want to see. Hamadu start just because he's fun to watch and he's scoring all these points. But from a fit perspective, I don't like it. I think Cade, he does need somebody who can take the ball out of his hands a little bit just for the sake of balancing out the attack. And so that's just not all on Cade, but even more important than that, I think he need maximum spacing around Cade so that he can get into the lane and do what he wants to do.

On Hamadu, unfortunately, he just doesn't do that for a team. Not right now. Not right now. He doesn't. I think that if Hamadu can shoot, it can be like a 37% three-point shooter. I don't think you can keep him out of the starting lineup because he'd be such an asset as a score. So, all right, moving on, I realize we haven't done the ad yet.

And for the sake of making this episode drastically easier for me to add it. I'm going to do that right now. We still got a few more questions. So this is our sponsor, of course, is draft kings. So the official sports betting partner, the NBA, new customers can bet just $1 on any team and get $150 in free bets if they win. Everyone can pay it play for huge cash prizes. Draft Kings is giving all new customers a free shot at millions of dollars in total prizes with their first deposit.

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1-800-889-9-978-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-7-7-7. Or visit cccppg.org slash chat. In New York, call 8778, hope and Y, or text Hope N-Y at 467-369. All right, next question. After his initial slow couple of games, how do you feel Cade's development has been to add to this area as he has,

slash, has not improved? We've been talking about Cade pretty consistently all throughout the season. the biggest thing that I wanted to see when he came in was would the shooting continue to translate? And he's been up and down there as well. Obviously, the jump shot looks super pretty. But over the past few games, I think he's been struggling on his threes. I'm not worried about it.

But functionally, he has one good season before this as a three-point shooter. He did not shoot the ball super well from distance when he was in high school. His lone season in Oklahoma State, he shot 40%. That was like the one thing that a lot of people were trying to keep their eye on. So he's shown enough this season to convince me that he's a good shooter. The form looks nice. He's able to stop and pop with great balance, and I think he's able to get the shot off really, really well.

Again, going back to the Isaiah Stewart thing, as far as like the rest of his game, I just don't feel like you're going to unlock so much of what he can do until you allow him to, one, play with decent floor spacing so that he's not hounded and blitzed by two to three guys, almost every possession. And two, you want to open up driving lane so he can get to the basket.

It's really that simple. Like he's just so limited by his teammates right now, unfortunately. And it's a big thing that comes up with the rookie of the year discussion, the way that Cade is perceived as a lesser player because of maybe his stats or his team record and then a guy like Mobley who, again, I think he's been great. I was totally wrong about him. Question about that later. But I still think Cade is the better player.

In a redraft, Cade does not go anywhere but number one. He is still the most impactful best player in this draft class. last, bar none. And I just, I don't see it any other way. Like, I think he's going to get better and better because so much of his game is just based on IQ. And, you know, that age as well. I think he couldn't have like a Chris Paul type career where he's going to be impactful

for a long time just because he's going to be able to manipulate defenses with, you know, body control, shooting, look away as any manner of this bigger and bigger bag of tricks that is going to keep expanding as he gets older and older. So, I, again, the shooting is what I was working. worried about the season. That's come along. He's shot it well enough over considerable stretches for me to be convinced that it's there. That's all I see right now. I don't think you're getting the full, I don't know how you want to say it, the full Cade Cunningham experience until you put the right people around him. So I'm not really worried about that right now.

So I would say, I'll preface my answer by saying that a lot of handlers hit the rookie wall. I mean, being a high possession handler in the NBA, there's a lot of adjustments be done versus the level of competition. These players have faced in the lower leagues in the NCAA, some of them in G League, Ignites, some of them in Europe. The NBA is an incredibly competitive league. I mean, it is a game in which the margins are inches,

like often, sometimes literally. So adjustment can be a thing. So Cade has not improved in terms of his turnovers. He is still turning the ball over a lot. I think a lot. So some of that is just the speed of the game. At Oklahoma State, some of it was he had no spacing and just had to force a lot of stuff.

in the NBA, it's that he makes a fair number of passes that are just never going to cut it in the NBA. I mean, the opposing defenses are too good. Guys are too quick. So he has not improved in that capacity. He has certainly improved at attacking the basket. That's been a pleasant surprise. There were some concerns about his burst, his ability to reach the basket. He's doing much better at that.

He's got, like, he makes some difficult shots, like that hook shot he makes from like three feet to the side of the basket. And you saw him make that in the Rising Stars Challenge. he can do that in the NBA as well. I think he's really improved as a mid-range shooter. So mid-range shooting, most guys cannot do it at anything like an efficient level. If you can do it, fantastic. It's an extra way for you to create offense. It makes you that much more dangerous than the pick and roll.

For those of you who remember, Knaar, a couple years ago, he was an excellent, even the season before that, though Casey never used them as a role man. I wanted him to play six men and just to handle the ball on high volume. So he was an excellent mid-range shooter, which meant that. that you had to cover him very closely. You could not let him come around the roll man and stop and shoot. So if you have to cover him closely, that opens up other guys, especially if the big doesn't get there in time, somebody has to rotate.

And that opens up a shooter. And Carnar was decent at finding shooters. So if Cade can do that, great. I mean, it means you have to guard him that much more closely. More guys open, easier route to the basket, better at breaking down defenses. So I've been impressed at that. His three-point shooting has been up and down. he's actually been shooting much better on pull-ups than on catch-and-shoots.

That needs to improve. Defense, I think he's a work in progress, but that's the case for a lot of players. I think he'll get there because he's very smart. So, yeah, that's my answer. And I agree with you, Tommy, that getting the right players around him is important. Cade, because he's not a super athletic guy and because a lot of his game is cerebral needs the right players around him. And that's not the case this season.

Yeah. I did not know that he had that type of, that type of, that type. of ups. You see that poster on Corey Hissbert? I think it was on, on Gil. I almost just called him Hal Gill, who is tall. And who's a former NHL player who's tall enough to play in the NHL, but nowhere near fast enough. I swear it was Kisbert, because the notification I got was rookie on rookie crime. Okay, it could have been it. Whatever the case, yeah, that was, that was an impressive degree of athleticism. I think that's something that will really help Kate as, as we go forward. He's already a strong player. He has a lot of space on that frame to add muscle. And you add

strength there. It's going to make defenses have to work that much harder to stop on them on the way of the basket. And that means much more in the way of fouls and also just the ability to score there. So I think that you'll see him, as is the case, but many handlers come back much stronger in his sophomore season. All right. So what do you guys think you were wrong about coming into the season? Let's see, I thought that Isaiah Stewart was really going to establish himself as a strong starting center in the NBA. Tommy and I raved about last season about how he just makes all of his teammates better with all of the with his hard work and all the things he does in the court. Both of us, I think I can confidently speak for you.

Obviously, I can because we both said it in this episode. Don't feel like he can be a starting center in the NBA anymore. Yeah. Yeah, he's just, I think that last season, he's amassed a lot of his deficiencies. He was playing in so largely against backup centers, guys who weren't just going to be able to score over him. He is somewhat helpless against guys who are taller and can jump higher.

side, Gafford, a lot of guys. You know, even Yokic who can just hold the ball over his head. And like the one, he's still a super hard worker. I think he'd be a good bench center, though he's not ideal to step into the starting lineup just because of the issues on defense, though, aside from that, he's a very good defender. And on offense, of course, which we've spoken about quite a bit. The only situation in which I could see him being a viable starting center is if he

is a very high-percented shooter from the, from the perimeter. and you have a power forward who can really run the pick and roll at a high level so that Stewart doesn't have to. You know, that way he can just space the floor on offense, maybe do some posting up. But he won't be a guy who clogs the interior. He'll be a guy who provides decent value on offense. But you'd have to have a guy like John Collins, for example. And there aren't very many power forwards like that. So I think he's a long-term bench center.

What else? I got some. Yeah, I'll just go through mine very good. quickly. I was hopeful for Killian Hayes. I was disabused of the notion that he had improved at Summer League where he was terrible. Going down the list, Tomadu, I had hopes that he had worked in a shot over the summer. I don't think he did. And that's about it for me. Okay. I will start with Tomadu. I did not think he was going to be a good player. Mike, you were very high on him to begin with, high on his impact. I still think that he's not a starting two guard. And again,

you've said he needs to be a good shooter for that to happen. That's a big one. I think it was decently spot on with Killian Hayes. I wanted him to come off the bench. I thought it was confidence issues. I thought he'd look better there. I think the biggest thing probably for me is some of the analysis I had on some of these draft guys.

Evan Mowley's probably the biggest one. I was not very high on him as an impact player. I think a lot of that is the players that he plays around. But again, he's definitely made that clear. Cleveland Cavalier's team a lot better. He plugs a lot of holes for them defensively. He finishes plays. Still an exceptional impact player. I think I laughed at the idea of him winning rookie of the year and now he's the frontrunner. Scotty Barnes, I did not like him. I still don't know that he's good enough for the type of role and usage that he's going to

demand because of his archetype. But he had like a 28-point game a few nights ago, 16 rebounds. Clearly the dude is very, very good and he's still very, very young. I did not like him coming into the season. Lance Caprosi of Everything Pistons. He was a big fan. I went on their show and I was like, nope, not Scotty Barnes. Good call there, Lance. I was higher on Jalen Suggs and Jalen Green.

It's too early to say whether they're actually bad. I think, especially with guards, you give them at least a couple seasons or you're hoping for flashes. Like Cole Anthony, he started off his rookie. His rookie year was not particularly good. then this year he came along and he was actually getting like he was in the all-star conversation as like a reserve or like a replacement pick like he was really good so those guys i mean obviously they've had rough starts to their season but you know there's still things that they can do to pick up their career so i i mean i know that we love the draft here and we're definitely going to

talk about that this summer the draft is still a crapshoot if you can get some of your picks right that's great we still love talking about it two of the guys i was right on uh i would assume and Bones Highland, both of those guys played in The Rising Stars in our pre-draft episodes. It was huge fans of those guys. I wish we would have kept one of our or acquired a late first rounder to pick up one of them. But yeah, no, I think for how much talk I like to have about the draft, that would probably be my bigger mistakes. Yeah, I would say Jalen Green, I was wrong about it. It is early, and you want to give guards time.

I don't think highly of Jalen Green's basketball IQ, like not at all. And that's something also. I mean, he has a certain mentality to him, but I also don't like. And if it were just one of those things, I would say fine. And some of the mentality is going to be immaturity. But I felt like his swing skill was going to be passing, like his ability to make the right breed and make the right pass, take advantage of the gravity he's going to attract, and also avoid taking bad shots.

And this is early, but I have a very strong sense that he's not going to get there. So, Mobley, the reason I wasn't interested in him is that I feel very strongly. the Pissons needed a lead handler and should really prioritize that. And I still believe that that was the case. He's in a good situation in Cleveland playing next to an all-star point guard, playing next to, you know, replacement all-star center, but to freeze him from needing to defend the interior against stronger players. He has been legitimately excellent on offense.

He's a player who just offers a lot off the score sheet. And this isn't a knock against Kate Cunningham. It's just that Mowgli has been better in part. Mowgli just had a much shorter distance to go in order to be an effective player. I mean, Kate had to put a lot more together, and he's a handler on a worse team. As far, I wasn't, I don't think I was wrong about Scotty Barnes. I didn't disparage him. I just, I don't think he would have been a good player for the Pistons. I think, you know, who knows, if he can shoot, it's probable, I'll start player. That remains his question mark. But, you know,

excellent team guy, excellent glue guy, who has a lot to offer, just not baby hooks. Though I'm sure you can do that. It was just, he missed like four of them in the, uh, in the skills challenge, which is pretty funny. Right. I think the Raptors is a great situation for him. And then going back to Jalen Green, he's at 31 point something percent on three is this season. I thought that was his swing skill. He started off the G League season shooting not super well, but that was the big thing.

I think once he gets his three ball up and he's able to make the closeouts more honest, I think at that point he'll be able to take advantage of the dunking that he actually can do, despite his showing at the dunk contest. Oh, God, that was ugly. It was incredibly ugly. That was like, that was the worst. That was the worst dunk contest I've ever seen anything of. Yeah.

You know, of course, Jalen Green, there are reasons for Pistons fans to dislike him because the stuff he had before the season, the stuff he said before the season. I thought it was funny. I don't remember who said this, but it's like, oh, yeah, I paid a buy an NFT of Jalen Green missing nine dunks in a row. So I think the three could still come along. I just, I don't have as much confidence in him being kind of that takeover score anymore. It's early, but I'm pretty confident that he's not going to get there.

I'm still rooting for him. I mean, I think if he puts it together, he'll be a great player in this league. And we don't have to feel insecure because Cade Cunningham is still going to be. I still think he'll be the best player from that draft class. I don't think anybody's going to be like, dang, we should have taken Jalen Greene. I'm not rooting for him to fail. I don't care that he said he doesn't like Detroit. That's okay.

I just, I don't like him because he doesn't seem like a very, good team player. And I think he's a bit of a goofball. Yeah, he has improved in that capacity, but it's like most NBA players don't come in like with this, this lacking in maturity. Who knows, maybe he'll mature a lot of players do. But still, I think that, I don't think he's going to be that number one option. And the reason I wanted him number two was because I felt like the Pistons really needed that. I had Jalen Suggs number three, I'd get for the same reason. Also, I remain concerned about Mowbly's injury history. All that has to happen. And this is, I'm not wishing this on him by any means. I hope this doesn't happen. But gets a foot injury,

which would be less of an issue at this point because he's very slight. But gets a foot injury, gets a knee injury, gets a hip injury. Just based on, he has that frame of high hips and a great deal of mobility while also being very tall, that can cause problems in the long term. So nothing like Zion, I mean, who's very different. I want to take some time because I invite Zion to be offensive in the way that he carries himself. This guy was drafted first over. role with great expectations to be a good player who gets to play, get paid a lot of money to play professional basketball. And he can't even be bothered to stay at a healthy weight.

It's like, and the guy seems to be a whiner who doesn't seem dedicated to the team. But it's Zion what makes him special is this combination of bulk and great strength and incredible athleticism for the guy his size. That combination of factors also means he absolutely has to watch his health, his weight, his level of conditioning, if he's going to stay healthy. even if he were to do that, he would start having severe injury, you know, starting significant and escalate into severe injury problems in his 30s, just because the NBA is going to be hard on somebody's body. It's hard on anybody's body, but particularly a guy like that. And you see guys

like LeBron, for example, and Dwight Howard, who just really forced into it, swimming down in their 30s to take stress off their body. Zion cannot swim down past a certain point. So I think that his back would eventually become an issue, but also his lower body just from where. So, yeah, there's that. One final thing. I don't want to toot my own horn, but I feel mildly gratified at this. This is Christian. What do you mention earlier in the episode?

I always had concerns about Christian Wood's mentality, not just from his earlier, about his earlier struggles with maturity, but because he always seemed harsh toward his teammates on the floor when they made a mistake. And also when he was having a big game, his teammates did not really seem to be very excited. It was just these little things, and he's definitely had attitude issues in Houston. But also, it's just like, you know, the guy's no longer on the team. You know, makes it a little easier to look at that and say, I guess it's not like,

oh, I was right and good riddins. But, yeah, I don't really know why I even found it necessary to bring this up. You know, I wish I will. Yeah, I followed him a little bit since he's gone to Houston. His defense has really taken a step back. That was one of the things that I thought he could have improved. improved. Maybe it's just Houston. Maybe it's just him. But yeah, if you want to finish off the segment of what were we wrong about, we can finish it off with this. I was probably wrong about

Christian Wood's ceiling as a really, really good center. Yeah. I think it was a good question. That's fine. Absolutely. You know, it's funny looking back. I still get a kick out of this that in the 2020 off season, like there are questions, you know, about the draft and whatnot. The other two things that were really in our minds, Christian Woods' future with the Pistons and Segudumboa, poor guy got waived from the Lakers. I think for the, was it for the second time that they waived him? I think so.

I think so, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I always thought, I mean, my, ever since he was traded from the Pistons, my supposition has been that there was just really something, an issue with him that we didn't know about. And, I mean, the guy on the surface, he's young, he's highly athletic. You think that all that needs to really happen is for him to be decent on defense,

shoot threes, and cuts of the basket, to be an effective NBA player, but there seems to be something that teams really don't like about him. And I'm curious what that is, though it's ultimately irrelevant where the Pistons are concerned. Maybe he'll go to EuroLeague. We'll see him again in a few years. Yeah, who knows. He just was not ready. Yeah.

I mean, at Stafonsky, I think, had a positive impact on the Pistons as far as his influence on Kora. As is a drafter, he did not do very well. Kyrie Thomas is out of the league. Seku's out of the league. Bruce Brown turned into a decent role player, but nothing more than that. that and I don't remember whom else he drafted like brown and kairie were in Jordan bone again it's a pick in the 50s of the business bought with cash but he was out of the league pretty quickly too yeah so this also turned into what ways was ed stefansky wrong again i mean this is a major

a side i think he was one of the one of i think he was an important factor in getting through to tom gores and changing the way that the tom gores had insisted that the team be run so I'm saying that on the basis of nothing, but he's, he is a long-term professional in the NBA. And even from the beginning, he was like, you know, he moved Reggie Bullock at the deadline. He said, we're not giving up assets at this point. And it would be hard to keep him. So we're going to get rid of him now. We're going to try to get whatever return we can for him. And, you know, Svi ended up being the guy, uh, the pistons traded for Hamanu Diollo, which was nice. You know, who knows, maybe they could have made that trade with another player. But,

And now Svea is on the Raptors, which, and I completely stole this from a joke about Blake Griffin when he was drafted. Svees on the Raptors, which is the perfect place for his T-Rex arms. Sorry, Svee. I just had to make the jokes. Yeah, I still think the guy can be a good player in the league if he can recapture, a good role player, if he can recapture the shooting that he had for the Pistons in 2019, 2020, when he was one of the best shooters, you know, one best three-point shooters in the league. All right, folks, so that'll be it for this episode. I want to thank everybody who submitted questions, both on the Discord and on Twitter. Our Twitter, to the basket pod, that's the letters, T.O. Not the numbers.

Or not the number, rather. So as always, thank you for listening. We'll catch you in the next episode.