Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 91: Cade Cunningham is the Best Player in His Draft Class, But You Already Knew That

Episode Date: March 30, 2022

This episode discusses Cade's big game against the Nets and what it portends for his future, Marvin Bagley's ceiling and prospective role with the Pistons, Killian Hayes's recent improvements, and the likelihood that Beef Stew enjoys eating beef stew. 

Welcome back, everybody, to Drive into the Basket, part of the Basketball Podcast Network. I'm Mike, joined by Tommy. We're recording this right after the Pistons, close lost of Brooklyn Nets. And, of course, the subject of the hour is Kate Cunningham, who really exploded in the second half after a slow first after suffering a tailbone contusion early in the game. Just for reference, the tailbone is the vestigial remnant of the tail. It does absolutely nothing. But if you hurt it, it can really hurt. So just a little anatomy lesson there.

Anyway, Tommy, what did you like or what did you see from K tonight? What did he have tonight? Like 34? Is that matching his career high? I'm not sure. But, yeah, something in the mid-30s, six assists. Yep, 34 points. Yeah.

And like you said, most of it was in the second half. And he had a quick five assists. to start the game. And then, like we all saw, he injured his tailbone. He's out for most of the second quarter. So functionally, this was 34 points in just about three quarters, which is insane to me. And you really get to see, you know, just how Kade can take over a game. At one point, he wasn't shooting all that well.

I think he was one of four on threes. And then he ended up finishing the game, five of 11. And that's been a little bit of a concern for us over the past few weeks, you know, just the outside shooting. The inside shooting, you know, around the basket and then the mid-range is. been phenomenal. So it's always good to see these kinds of games. And then just over the course of the week, you'll take these close losses as we're kind of headed down to the end of the season with a very, very close tank race. But yeah, definitely the big one tonight was Cade Cunningham showing out

against a very, very good Brooklyn Nets team. Absolutely. These are the kind of losses you love because it's like it or not, it's important for the Pistons to lose right now. Just for those who aren't as familiar with draft positioning, you can drop five spots. So if the, excuse me, you can drop four spots, pardon me. So if the pistons are, if they finish with the worst record, they can drop the five. Getting a fifth overall pick would not be the worst thing in the world in this draft, which doesn't really have any top, top, top, top end talent. But if you finish fourth, which is likely the worst that the pistons would finish,

because the Pacers are five wins ahead of them right now with six games left, then you have the risk of dropping the eighth. and that's really not ideal at all. So, yeah, it's best if the Pistons lose. Right now they control their own destiny as far as, again, nobody likes to hear this. And it's stressful. It's stressful for us or Tommy and I to root for losses. But if the Pistons lose every remaining game, then at worst, they are guaranteed a three-way tie for first.

Or for, excuse me, 30th, which is more or less the same thing in the tank race. So in any case, yeah, tonight's the kind of loss you love where the Pistons are competitive. They really played great defense. And they really outshot their baseline from three, but teams do that from time to time. And of course, Cade took over near the end of the third corner and end of the fourth, and he was just hitting everything. You saw glimpses of what he can be once he gets certain things together.

His three-point shooting has really been a point of inconsistency this season. But like you said, Tommy, his pull-up shooting, you know, once he gets to around the free, around the key, you know, up on the corner, off the sides, whatever else, his pull-up shooting is. been excellent. That's a great creation tool. And it means that guys need to guard you that much more closely. He was getting to the hoop and also his three was falling, which is really important. One of the reasons his efficiency hasn't been so great is that his three has not been falling. And it's pretty hard to be efficient if you're getting most of your offense from two as a

perimeter player. Right. Another reason his efficiency hasn't been all that great. Guess how many free throws he shot tonight? Two. Three, excuse me. Three, an entire three free throws. and I mean it's been talked to death at this point. Everybody's noticed it. He deserves so many more free throws. He gets hit a lot. You see his head snap back and the rest. I don't know what it is.

I don't know if they just don't like him or what. But he's not getting his respect there, but he really should be averaging at least like twice the free throw attempts that he's getting right now. And think about where his scoring averages, his efficiency would be if he was getting those. You know, he really, like this is the sort of thing that really makes me excited for his future because eventually he is going to get that respect. He should have it now. I don't know why that's a problem.

But once he gets that, his scoring averages, his efficiency are going to go up. And the respect that he gets from opposing defenses is, if it's not already topped out, it's going to get even higher because he's just that much more of a threat. I know you wish that he would have completed that dunk on drum. And I think that was crazy. Like he broke him down on the perimeter, crossed him over. And I just wanted that to go down so badly. But, you know what, probably next year.

You know, Kate, he's just getting to the basket with ease now. And it's crazy because, like, you usually, when a player is shooting this poorly from three, I mean, they still guard him closely regardless. But, you know, when he gets that much pressure, it should not be this easy for a player who's not, like, he doesn't have the greatest burst. He just breaks guys down with body control. It's something that we've talked about from the beginning of the year. But, you know, nobody's figured out how to stop him yet.

I think that the way he breaks down guys with just cerebral, play is going to continue for his entire career. If anything, you can just get better and better. Yeah, I agree. He sees the game with a tremendous amount of patience and just the way he can break it down seemingly in his head in the moment. I mean, that's a skill you can't teach. That's a skill you either have or you don't. A vast majority of players do not.

Now, what we saw tonight, and yeah, the free throw, so here's my belief as far as why he gets so few free throws. He tends to fade off to the sides. This is something that other players did. some other players do as well. Like Derek Rose fades off to the sides when he's taking layups. Carrey Irving also fades off to the sides. These are players who don't get many free throw attempts as a result.

Now, Cade should be getting more than he's getting, but he's not really taking this sort of contact that's going to get you to the line more. Also, he's just not getting respect from the refs. That's true. But when you go straight up the middle into a lot of contact into multiple players, then especially if you're able to power your way through to and get something approximating a shot up, you're going to get a lot more free throws.

And I think we'll see that next season when Cade gets stronger. I'm quite confident he'll get stronger in the off-season. It's very difficult to put on muscle in the middle of the season. But we got a glimpse into how Cade could really become effectively unguardable. If you can shoot, pull-up threes, your defender basically has to be on you, especially he's doing this often around picks too.

And so if you can shoot those threes, you've got to be guarded closely. if you can go in there and shoot to mid-range pull-ups, again, you've got to be guarded real closely. It's really tough to do that. It's a tough shot to guard. And if he also has the option of taking it into the paint and scoring the restricted area, yeah, you just got a player who's extraordinarily difficult to guard.

Also, you've got to throw at least two guys at him, and that opens up guys in the perimeter. And hopefully in the future of the Pistons will have better off-ball players playing next to him. So he's a player, I mean, completely confidence will improve significantly in the offseason. And I think we'll see a big leap going into next season. Absolutely.

And you mentioned the players around him, I think one of the bigger developments that maybe has gone unnoticed. Well, that's not true. But one of the bigger developments has been Marvin Bagley, just what he's been able to do for Cade in terms of having a guy now who can finish players above the rim. Cade is targeting him. You can see the chemistry developing for those guys.

But really, it makes me excited just about the prospect of bringing in any guy who can get above the rim and, you know, finish these plays because Kate, he is what he was advertised to be. He's a guy who is initiating plays, creating offense out of nothing, but what he needs now is more guys around him who can finish those plays. That can be guys like Bagley who are going up for lobs and throwing them down, and then it can be guys who are on the perimeter, catching and shooting threes, or guys like Homadu who will cut to the basket, Kay can recognize them. There was a... Or, or your one true love, Jaden I mean.

We'll get to it, man. I promise you. You know what? Hey, I told you, by the end, by the time you do your research, he's going to climb up your draft board. He's going to be pretty high up there. Yeah. I think he is.

Yeah. It's a product of this draft class. Sure. Yeah. You want to, I mean, definitely, though, guys who can aggressively cut to the basket, also a coach who has guys aggressively cut to the basket. And certainly guys, like, you're hoping from this from Frank. Jackson, but he didn't get it.

Unfortunately, he got injured. And then his season went down, things just didn't go well for him this season. But guys who can shoot, yeah, guys who can shoot motion threes. You just want to give Kade the most targets you possibly can. And he just doesn't have good guys around them right now for the most part, including Isaiah Stewart.

Unfortunately, it's just not good on the role. And Bagley, I mean, part of his impact has just been the fact that the Pistons now have an athletic big who can score above the rim. but, you know, Bagley also is a talented score around the basket. But it really helps that he's tall and an excellent weber. Oh, 100%. Yeah, no, I mean, it was definitely something that we knew right from the beginning. You could see that Cade wanted to throw lobs,

and it's definitely something that you noticed that the athleticism was quite poor on this team. And, again, it makes me really excited at the prospect of adding somebody on the offseason who can go up and catch those lobs because as good as Bagley has been, the defense has been, for the most part, quite poor. maybe that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but there are definitely those moments where he... I don't think it's an exaggeration at all. I think it's an understatement. I think his IQ is mostly pretty bad, but I don't know.

I mean, I've seen some flashes of at least engagement where he's trying a lot harder. This is really off the cuff, but who would you say is the more impactful player right now, Isaiah Stewart or Bagley? Bagley is putting up big numbers on significantly better efficiency most nights, but Isaiah Stewart has really underrated, not underrated, but maybe underappreciated defense. So if you had to pick one, what would you say? I would probably say Stewart just because he's tremendously better than Bagley off the score sheet. Bagley's defense is really bad.

And Bagley has a long history, a really bad defense. Duke Shoshavsky had to run a zone defense during Bagley's one season because Bagley and Wendell Carter Jr., who has improved in the NBA, and Bagley could not defend the pick and roll. He has a long history of very poor defensive decision-making. just very poor tracking on defense. I mean, we saw it several times tonight, especially in transition. I mean, he lost Durant in transition. He lost Kyrie Irving in transition.

He just didn't, he wasn't watching. He didn't know where to be. And so I think you'll lose a lot of what he provides defensively. Excuse me, what a lot of the valley provides offensively is really lost on defense. But that's hard to measure. Isaiah Stewart has issues. The fact that he can't score above the rim, the fact that he's a bad role man, because you've got to get

Isaiah, a great guy, super hard worker, for the most part, a very good defender, unless he has to defend guys who are taller and more athletic than he is. I mean, who was it earlier in the week? I'm having trouble remembering. It was a good perimeter player he was guarding, who switched on to him,

and had absolutely no trouble staying with him. Yeah, well, whatever. Those of you who watch the games know better than I am, who I'm talking about. but yeah it was nice to himself from Stewart shooting threes tonight because I think he's going to have to do that to be a plus offensive player but like bagley yeah so I mean the question of course going forward and and you know bagley uh well the question going forward is what can he be to the pistons how good can he be and what's he going to need to do to get there so defense you've said already um that you know do you ever think do think he can ever be a good interior defender, a passable interior defender. Because it's a matter of IQ in my mind, I guess so. I don't know how to, I don't know how hard it is to teach an NBA player good interior

defense from this starting point. I'm not a coach. But, I mean, theoretically it should be possible, right? He has the tools. He has the physicals. You can jump out of the gym. A lot of it is timing, I'm sure. But, I mean, the engagement is there.

And I think that one of the maybe underrated aspects of coming to Detroit from Sacramento is that this is a team that is definitely built around guys who just seem to work hard and love working hard. And maybe being around those guys that rubs off on you. I don't know if Bagley had work ethic issues in Sacramento. But Sacramento is just regarded so poorly in terms of an organizational culture. Maybe that's not the best place for him to go. But I think that that's one of the good things. Like when you have this much in the way of guys who want to work hard, maybe it just rubs it off on the guys who maybe aren't known for that.

So I guess it should be possible, but yeah, what do you think? I have a question for you about it afterwards, not the defense, but about Isaiah Stewart and Marvin Bagley, but where do you think? I am not quite so confident about it as you are. So something I think should be kept in mind is that at the NBA level, like margins are very, very, very, very small. And on defense, Acumen and large parts, defensive IQ is about being able to make the right reads against the best players in the world in very, very, like, quick time. I mean, you have to be

making these reads on a, continually, on a very quick basis. And not all players can do that. I mean, some players just don't have that in them. It's a skill. And I don't know if it's one that's, well, some players. You can't teach what Kade Cunningham is doing. So maybe. Yeah, obviously. Well, I mean, Kade's an extreme example of really high basketball IQ. but Bagley on defense, I think, is an extreme example of very low defensive IQ, and I'm not sure if that can be overcome. I mean, maybe you can teach him to a degree to how to react in certain situations. But the returns thus far in his career, and even in college, have been very unencouraging.

So I don't think his future is as a center, at least on defense. Maybe on the perimeter, you can get away with it. Maybe. But that actually does take me into this question. I had. And this is actually something that we had kind of talked about a few episodes ago when we had Bryce Simon of Pistence Pulse on here. In that episode, we had sent three guys to the bench. We had sent Killing Hayes, Marvin Bagley, and Isaiah Stewart to the bench, you know, long term. It's like, well, we don't quite think that these guys are good enough to be starters long term,

but we still want them on the team and we want their production. So ideally, can these guys fit well together? And I think there was a quote earlier in an article today about how Dwayne Casey wants Marvin Bagley and Isaiah Stewart to both spend a considerable amount of time. 20 to 25 percent. 20 to 25 percent of their time working on three-point shooting. And I think that's actually a good thing. And, you know, that would really help because obviously both of these guys are right now at their best around the rim in terms of scoring.

Marvin Bagley, he's catching lobs, Isaiah Stewart. He's just muscling his way in. He's got a nice little jump hook, and that's great. But if you want to open up driving lanes, not just for, you know, know the guards and the guys who are driving to the interior, but Bagley for Stewart and Stuart for Bagley, one of those guys, or both, should be able to shoot threes so that you're clearing up the lane a bit. So if you had to put odds on it, or like a probability in terms of percentage, do you think, like what would you put that at? Like one of those guys developing a

serviceable three-point shot so that if they were to come off the bench together, they could run that duo effectively. So I think I'm pretty confident about Isaiah Stewart. I think he's, He has kind of what you can refer to as the it factor in terms of as a shooter. I mean, he had success with it last season, not on high volume, but he's got the stroke. I think it's just a matter of work ethic. He kind of got the yips, so to speak, this season. He just suddenly couldn't shoot. Also, I think, Dwayne Casey did say also that the piss, though, that he wanted Isaiah Stewart to walk it back and really focus more on what Casey deemed big men things, you know, scoring on the interior and whatnot.

No, pretty much just that. So I'm confident that Stewart will do it. I also think he needs to do it to be a plus offensive player because otherwise he's largely just clogging the paint. Like, he just can't play effectively on the picking roll. I mean, we've beaten that subject to death. I know we both feel pretty strongly about that. So I'm confident there. I think Bagley will also be a necessity.

He has really vacillated back and forth in his career from decent to horrible, like decent in his rookie season, horrible in his sophomore season. in his third season, horrible this season, shooting something like 18% on wide open threes, with those being three's attempted with no defender within six feet of him. So that can't last. Bagley really needs to find his value on offense. And so here are Bagley's issues on offense right now. Give it to the guy absolutely great lob threat and fantastic at finishing offense in the restricted area that is created for him by others.

not great at creating offense for himself around the basket. Like, basically, the longer he has possession of the ball, the more his field goal percentage drops. And he can't space the floor right now. So you want to play them together, I think both of them have to be able to shoot. Now, the way you can play them together off the bench, and maybe in, like, a very unlikely scenario

you can do this in the starting lineup is on offense, you'll basically have Stewart spacing, on the pick and roll at least, you basically have Stewart spacing the floor and he'll run Bagley in the pick and roll. And on defense, of course, you will have Stewart defending the interior and Bagley hopefully can make it work on the perimeter. On a perimeter, he's not a terrible defender. So that's the way I would see it work. And if like everything, like a great deal goes right, you know, maybe you can make that work in the starting lineup.

But I think Bagley just absolutely also needs to be able to shoot in order to be a positive value player. Yeah, you read my mind on the on the roles. Like, absolutely. Isaiah Stewart, he definitely projects the significant. better interior defender so you want him playing the five on defense and then you know bagley can he like you said he's a better perimeter defender he can play the four on defense but then offensively ideally it'd be nice if they could switch like if Isaiah Stewart can just be a guy who you know is you park him in the corner and he's just there he draws somebody away from the paint like you can't

leave him alone and then bagley is there in the pick and roll you know jumping over guys to finish these crazy lobs. I think that's like the ideal scenario. And in those very specific circumstances, I think those two guys can exist together on the floor and be more than just, you know, passable. I think they can be legitimately good together. They're both maybe, they'd probably be, they're probably what they are right now, too good to be bench players on bad teams, but on a good team, that's probably where they are. And that's a good situation. I mean, you still need eight or nine guys for the playoffs. And I think those guys would be able to provide you, you know,

meaningful contribution from there. You know, it's an efficient, I mean, what, we see, like 25 points from Bagley a few nights ago on like, 13 to 15? That's exactly what you want from your rim running big. They're beating up. I mean, Bagley's been beating up on bad teams. It's worth noting that.

I mean, it's nice that he has been putting up points. So, I mean, I'm not going to deny the facts and don't want to deny the fact that the guy is, is contributing. be done on offense. Now, Stuart almost invariably actually shoots from above the break, which is a more valuable method of space in the floor at this point. And for Stewart to be valuable, to be really valuable on offense, you want him to be able to shoot from everywhere. I mean, mid-range, not from everywhere, mid-range and above the break. Last season, he shot about 50% from mid-range. I mean, that's a good mark. Ideally, again, because Stewart is so

limited on the role. And like, Isaiah would have gone, you know, who knows? I mean, he's He might have gone like top five, top six in his draft here if he were not, if he were able to jump. And particularly if he were taller and able to jump. But unfortunately, he is undersized and unable to jump. Unable to jump. Did you see that? Yeah, he's just, he's not unable to jump, but he's a pretty poor leaper. He's a below the rim player.

Did you see that post on our NBA, about if you could add four inches to one player, it would have immediately. Isaiah's, imagine a seven-foot Isaiah Stewart. You know how good he'd be for that team? Let's just pretend for a minute that, like, he gets. gets a little bit of a boost to his vertical to go along with it. Yeah. That would be, that's the center position taking care for the next decade, you know?

Yep. Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's a potentially all defense player too. I mean, Isaiah's struggles on defense are primarily against centers who are taller and more athletic than he is.

And in many situations around the basket, he's helpless in that case. Not his fault. It's basically just the reality of being shorter and not, able to jump his eye. Maybe he'll hit a really late growth spur. That'd be nice. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know about that. Yeah, that would be very medically impressive. So, yeah, but going back to Bagley, so you ask the question, how good could Bagley be for the Pistons? So if Bagley, I mean, I'm quite confident he's going to continue to score well in the restricted area on offense that's created for him. And I'm going to continue. catching lobs. Now, what does he have to do to be like a legitimately valuable player?

Shoot threes. That's one thing. Just the ability to space the floor has really helped for teammates. Also, it's a high efficiency shot. So you want him able to reliably shoot threes. Also, basically, necessity if he's going to be playing a power forward, which I think is his long-term position. And, you know, again, I think he'll be a role man too. But he's not going to be a guy who's, if you want to, you know, if you want to be really valuable, you don't want him just constantly inhabiting the interior. So especially if you want to be able to play a five-out offense, which is really nice to be able to do. So got to be able to do that. Ideally, if he can learn to generate some offense for himself around the basket, that would be nice. Post-ups, I don't think he's going to get

there. Hardly anybody does, but not really anything. And if he can play passable defense, unless he really finds another gear offensively, I don't think he's a long-term starter. But because if you look at him right now, I don't want to call him a worst version of Javille McGee, though all credit to Javille McGee, he's really having a Renaissance season for him for himself. but right now you can call him like a very inferior version of Christian Wood, who is highly athletic and a really good interior score, but he can't shoot threes, and Woods is below average defender and Bagley's much worse. So I think the maximum you can reasonably hope for is for him to be a long-term bench player on a good Pistons roster, and that would be a win. Yeah, that's about where I have

him as well. And I know that a lot of people, myself included, are really enjoying the chemistry that he's developing with Cade. And a big part of that is just the vision that Cade has. But there is another point guard on the bench that maybe they can develop chemistry, and that's Cillian Hayes, the guy who his best attribute is still his passing. And I think that we're starting to see some things from Cillian that are very encouraging in terms of his future as a ball handler and his role with the pistons moving forward. Did you want to transition into that? Or is there anything more to I don't think I have much else to say about Bagley. I mean, it's something worth noting, and you said this before,

is that the fact that he's just an athletic big is nice. He is not the only, there are other athletic bigs who can do more than he can. And at this point at least, and so you replace him with another athletic big. He was just able to catch Wabs and score well on a non-self-created offense in the restricted area. You're going to get the same result and maybe more. So, yeah, on to Killian, yeah, he's definitely been. playing better lately. He's been playing more decisively. That's a big deal. He's been taking the ball more to the hoop accordingly, you know, in terms of playing more decisively. At times, you see some

inklings of a three-point shot. For the most part, he still struggles. And of course, he's an excellent passer. I mean, even at his worst, you can give it to the guy, that you should give it to the guy. He's got excellent basketball IQ, very good court vision. He makes the right decisions for the most part in terms of his passing. He's a bullet passer. He's kind of improved with his right hand, which is nice. And, you know, he can be a good point guard. Now, we had a question actually from, this is from ACAT-1-14 in the Detroit Piston subreddit. I recognize that name. He is one of the oldies. You have been around a long time, my friend. So he asked, did these last few games changed the plan for Killian Hayes? I think the plan for Killian Hayes changed the moment.

that Cade joined the team because Cielion, I think, is going to be at his best handling on heavy volume, and he's not going to do that next to Cade. What do you think? Yeah, I think that, for me, the plan hasn't changed, but the plan probably, yeah, like you said, when Cade joined the team, I was never a big fan of those two working together unless Cailin became a really good three-point shooter. But I really like the fit with Cillian off the bench. And I think that right now we are finally starting to see, what he can be there. And we mentioned his potential fit with Marvin Bagley. They hacked, I don't think they've connected on too many lobs,

but I think that that's going to change, if not on the tail end of this season, then next season, assuming those two guys stay. Because Killian is finally starting to reap the benefits of like a very, very slow incremental improvement on his drives. And this is something like going back to the very beginning of this year when we were talking about where we wanted guys to be.

I wanted Killing to come off the bench because I thought it would be an easier time for him against that level of athleticism. And I thought he'd be more comfortable. And I think we're finally starting to see it because he is now finally starting to initiate contact, initiate drives and, you know, throw himself into people. You said decisively, I think that's great. That's a perfect way of describing it because, you know, whether it's the stepbacks that he's either taking and making or taking him missing, it doesn't really matter to me. He's doing it with confidence. He's letting it fly without hesitation. and then when he is attacking the basket, he is legitimately, you know, creating contact.

And if you're going to be a pick and roll point guard, you need to be willing and able to do that. So while we haven't seen a ton of these lobs yet, I think if those guys do get more overlap next year, assuming they're both here, I think you are going to see a much stronger connection with Killing Hayes and Marvin Bagley. So the plan for me hasn't changed. I think that it's just strengthened because right now for the first time in, I don't know, how long, Killian Hayes looks like he has a future in the NBA, in my opinion. Like, he was starting to look like he was headed that way,

but now it really looks like he might actually stick around for more than his rookie contract. Because he, like, let's not mince words, he was awful. And he actually just finished his rookie year, air quotes, in terms of games. I think this was like his 84th or 85th game tonight against the Nets. So you can say that, like, yeah, no, now that he's finally got a full. working season under his belt. He looks like an NBA player. There are a lot of people who are going to be very happy and like they saw that coming. Kudos to those people. I did not see it. I, you know, I thought Killingen was awful. Like he started from such a low point. And the fact that he's,

you know, attacking the basket against legitimately good NBA players tonight at the Brooklyn Nets starters. That's very impressive to me. It's a good, very good sign. I mean, not to take away from Killian tonight. I mean, the Nets were horrendously bad on offense tonight. They don't really protect the rim very much. There is one drive from Killian on which Drummond was up at the top of the key and just decided he didn't feel like playing defense. But it's nonetheless, it's progress. So I think he's trending in the right direction.

There are some things he still needs to do in order to become like a genuine NBA rotation player on a good team. For example, you got to be able to shoot threes. I mean, no ifs ands, or buts about that. Sure. Like, yeah. I mean, you've got to be able to take that shot again. it's a high efficiency shot, and just the ability to space the floor is a necessity if you're going to be a viable off ball player, and Killian is not going to be on the ball all the time.

You've got to continue making strides as a score. It's not okay for him to just be a guy who plays defense, and his defense, for the most part, is genuinely good. There are some situations in which he struggles, like against really fast guards, and in that situation, hopefully he has another guy next to him who can defend those guys. But for the most part, he's a good defender. And he does it well, even if there's a big charging enemy, he's very good. the ball. But you got to have that scoring. You cannot be a non-threat to score. He's been doing

better at it lately. Again, largely against bad teams, but you hope that continues. So, and also, the drives into the paint need to need to continue. They need to, I think, be a little bit more decisive. He's been accepting contact to a degree, but needs to do it more. So I would say if his back, if he turns, if he really, again, super smart player, if he turns out to be a back, a long-term backup point guard for the distance. And if, you know, he's a guy who can step into the starting lineup in case of injuries, then great, that's a win. But I think his future is long-term on the bench because you just can't really play him

next to Cade and give him an opportunity to shine. Right. And that was, well, I just want to say, like, yeah, even though tonight against the Nets, like the defense was quite poor, it's just incremental progress. I just wanted to make no of that. It's progress that we've seen for months at this point. where it's just slowly, slowly coming along. Some nights it's not there at all.

Some nights you see more flashes of it. And then going back to this questioner, there's this change of the plan for Killian Hayes. I think that there's a lot of talk right now about should the Pistons start Killian Hayes again next to Cade Cunningham now that he is looking. I mean, everybody hates. Absolutely.

Everybody seems to hate Corey Joseph. Yeah, I agree with you. I do not want him. It's like now that we finally found something that works, I don't want to mess with it. You know, I still don't think that Killian is even close to being ready to being back in the starting lineup going against starters and the mental challenge that comes with that, the extra attention, the extra game planning

and pressure. I don't think that he's a big part of it for me. I think it goes well beyond that. I mean, fit, you have to worry about fit with Cade. Cade is a value-dependent player depending on fit. I mean, he's going to be a productive player, but you want to give him the best fits possible. Cade is somebody who's going to be handling on heavy volume. That's where he's at his best, running high pick and rolls and doing his thing.

So, and Killian is going to shine the most when he's able to handle the ball on significant volume also. You put him next to Cade. I mean, number one, you're putting another kind of NBA athlete next to Cade. Then I don't think you want to do that. And you're not giving Killian his best opportunity to provide, to capitalize most on his own talent. I know the Lanzo comparison keeps getting brought up. We've said it before on this podcast. I'll say it again. Wanzo is incredibly fit dependent.

So where Wanzo finds his value is as a perimeter passer, high volume three-point shooter and defender. These last two seasons, one and a half seasons, he's found success in lineups in which he has no onus whatsoever on him to create offense. And he's playing next to two elite athletic creators. And basically all he has to do is shoot open threes. So that was Zion and Ingram last season.

And of course, it is DeRosen and will be in this season. So that is a very niche role. And also, the issue with Wanzo and Wies a 3 Indiard is that he's a wuss. He just won't, he's completely averse to contact. I mean, it's really bizarre to me. Maybe that's part of the comp. I don't know. Killian has to be, killing just, again, I mean, if Killian is playing next to two elite athletic creators, then I'm sure you worry less about that.

But, yeah, I just. I like him where he's at. I think he's got a ways to go. In general, he's got a ways to go. he has to improve as a score, he has to improve, particularly as a shooter. He has to improve at penetrating. Right now, it's worth noting his context. I mean, it's much harder to see on a good team.

If you put Killian Hayes in there, he would look really bad. He's looking decent right now as the backup point guard on one of the worst teams in the league. So absolutely, I'm encouraged by his progress. I'd say he still has a significant distance left to go in order to become a long-term positive value NBA player, assuming the pistons are going to, you know, whenever the pistons are going to start competing. I don't think he's close at this point, but he's headed in the right direction, and that's encouraging. So, yeah, so, I mean, that's good. We don't have to look at Killian and say, oh, you know, he's disappointing if he's not a positive value NBA player right now.

You got another two seasons under contract, and I've said it before. I'll say it again. I think the piston should, you know, the option's already been accepted for next year, which made perfect sense. And I think they should give him a fourth year as well. You don't, you know, even if he's not very good next season, you don't really start thinking about moving him until the trade deadline probably in his fourth season. And hopefully he has some value at that point if he really hasn't panned out. But yep, back a point guard, I think. And not the return you want in the number seven pick, but not the worst thing in the world either.

Yeah, no, I 100% agree with you. And, you know, obviously, drafting K, that solves a lot of your problems in terms of, you know, how much talent you need to add and what kind of roles you need to fill. we have a very special player on our hands, obviously. So what Killian turns into, it matters a lot less. The stakes are a lot lower in terms of what Killian needs. Obviously, this team still needs talent. It would be great if Killian was a significantly better player. But if he was, maybe we don't end up with Kate at all.

Yeah, oh, exactly. That's what to talk to death as well? Yeah, 100%. Like looking back and saying, oh, what if we drafted Halliburton? If you draft Halliburton, then, I mean, if you change anything, then you very possibly don't end up with Kay, the Pistons had a 14% chance at him. They may have had a lower chance with Halliburton.

The Pistons lost a lot of close games last season. I mean, they were a comically bad crunch time team. I think they played, I don't remember what it is. They were really bad. You add Halliburton in there, and Halliburton is a very successful rookie, and maybe you get quite a bit better. But in any case, yeah, whatever you want to call, it's the butterfly effect, whatever.

I don't think you can just change what you do and hope for everything to turn out the same. Okay, before we move on, quick word from our sponsor, Draft Kings. College basketball fans join the action on the court during the biggest tournament of the year with Draft King Sportsbook. Turn your team's victory in your own big win. New customers can bet $5 in any team to win and get $200 in free bets if they do. Sportsbook isn't available in your state yet. You can still join the college troops action with Draft King pools. Everyone can play free pools, Almorich-Long for a shot at a share of over $250,000 in prizes.

Simply join a pool and answer questions like who will make it to the next round and who will hit the most three-pointers and track your results. Down with the Drafking Sportsbook app now, use promo code TBPN. That $5 in any college hoops team to win and get $200 in free bets if they do. If they win, you win with promo code TBPN this week at Drafking Sportsbook. 21 plus restrictions applies. See show notes for details. Okay. One last thing we didn't get to in the Cade segment.

Of course, the rookie of year race is a big thing amongst Pistons. It's a big talking point amongst Pistons nations, so to speak. And at this point, just like I've said before, I think that Mobley probably has it. Maybe even Scotty Barnes will finish out of Cade. If Cade had not had such a slow first month, then I think he would be much better position to do it, or if his three-point percentage were higher. But I think he kind of got put irrevocably behind by that first month. But I also don't care if he wins rugby to year.

I think he'll come back very good next season for guard list. I don't think it's going to make any difference. Right. I would love to see him win it, and I still think he deserves it. And maybe there is some Homer bias in there for me. But again, we've talked about this. Nobody is at being asked to do what Cade is doing, and especially not with the supporting cast that Cade has.

Toronto, I think they just unseated Cleveland, and now they're the sixth seed. They're still a good team. They have a great coach. They have Fred Van Blyte. A lot of these guys were on the 2019 championship team. They're good. Cleveland, same deal.

They had two all-stars Jared Allen and Darius Garland. Mowgli is definitely a huge part of their defense, not taking anything away from these guys. But it's just not the same thing. You're not being asked to do as much. Kate is, like we've said, he is the number one priority on every team scouting report, and he is still putting up these numbers.

I mean, you can talk about the efficiency. I think that's probably the biggest thing hurting him right now. That's the knock. Yeah, it's the knock against him. Especially like from three and then the lack of free throws. which is not his fault, obviously, is probably hurting him a little bit too. You know, maybe his true shooting goes up a little bit, and that looks like a much better number. But I think that's kind of it, you know, if you're going to contextualize this argument,

it has to be in the scope of who is being asked to do the most and who is the most impactful. And I don't think there's any argument to be made against Cade there. Yeah, I mean, excuse me, you can say that, yeah, it's true that he has to do. a lot more than other rookies. I mean, you can say that Josh Giddy does quite a bit too, but at least he plays next to next to Shay. So, yeah, I agree that his efficiency is really going to work against him. I mean, it's worth noting, yeah, he's been at something like 34% from three from when he

really came online in late November. A lot of those threes came in the space of like four or five games. He shot 11% from three in February. I mean, that's just worth noting. If you were shooting better from three, yeah, his efficiency would be quite a bit better. more free throws of efficiency would be quite a bit better. But ultimately, the voters are going to give it to the guy who has done the best and Mobley and Burns at a lot less distance to cover to be effective in their roles,

but nonetheless, they were in that position and have been very effective in their roles. So, and yeah, being on a terrible team really doesn't help your case. I mean, that's unfair, but it's just how it is. So, yeah, if Kate had started strong in October and in November, I think, you know, he might be the clear winner right now. But it's a whole season award and that really, I think, is going to hurt him. So I'd love to see it, but I don't think it's going to happen, unfortunately. I think the important thing is that no Piston fan is looking at this draft class and, like, saying, oh, dang, I wish we had picked up that guy. We got the right guy.

This guy is going to be the best player in this draft class. and he's probably going to take us farther than any of these guys could. Oh, absolutely. 100% best player. Yeah, there's no question about that. All right. Let's move on to some users submitted questions. So first one, if the Pistons fall to seven, who's your guy?

In this scenario, we'll go with Portland, Oklahoma City, and the Pelicans jumping. The Pelicans may actually, you know, it's conceivable when they make the playoffs, but we'll go with that. So I have to excuse my typing while I bring up the current standing. So, yeah, the Pistons right now. are in a three-way tie for first. So seventh is the furthest they could possibly drop. We'll go with actually Indiana over the Pelicans, just because the Pelicans right now are like tied for 11th. So they could jump, but what probability? So that would start with presumably Orlando, Houston, Oklahoma City, Indiana, Sacramento, and Portland.

and then the Pistons at number seven. So we kind of done mock last time. I mean, we can do it again. I'd be done. Yeah, I think those are fun. Yeah. So if we're starting with Orlando, I think you'd go with Chet Holmgren. I mean, obviously, unless you really see Moe Bamba or Mundo Carter Jr. is your center of the future.

And I don't think they do. I wouldn't, if ever them. No. You go with who you think is going to be the best player. They have their, hopefully, for them, back court of the future. Cole Anthony started strong. It didn't start strong. He had a strong stretch in the middle before severely regressing again. And Jalen Suggs has just had a really bad season of, you know, really full of injuries. But I think they're going to continue with those two. So I don't think they'd have any interest in Ivy, for example. And probably not Paulo either, because they're really going to be looking to create from their backcords. And Paulo's not a great guy off the ball. Not a great player off the ball at this point. So I think you go with Holmgren in that case. So that brings us on to Houston. Houston, I think they definitely go with Jabari Smith.

And it's, I mean, it's not that difficult. They have a pretty decent back court in Porter Jr. In Jalen Green. And then Sengoon looks like he could be center of the future. They have Christian Wood as well. But I think he's simply the most talented player. He's still the number one pick, in my opinion. I really still like Jabari Smith.

So I think Houston takes him at number two. Yeah, I could agree with you there. And you can look at how of them maybe. I don't know how they feel about Sangoon is the center of the future, or if they say well, San Guine shouldn't be a factor. I would not play a front court of Sangun and Boncaro. I mean, just the potential for that to be a defensive catastrophe is too high. So moving on to the Thunder, who presumably would also have no interest in Jaden Ivy,

because they have Shay, who's very good, and they have Josh Gitty. By all accounts, they're a big fan of. This is where I might get a little bit weird. I really don't know who they would take. you ideally want to go with probably for them somebody in the front court oh dear um yeah i have no idea who they would take in this situation i know that you and i are low on paolo but i don't think they'd pass on him maybe they'd take paulo here possibly uh yeah i could agree with you actually and the hope is that giddy can be a good off ball player and and then yeah and then uh you've got

a pass first guy at point guard you've got chae and and paulo to create so yeah yeah yeah i would go Indiana at number four? I believe that would be right now Sacramento at number four. Okay. They have Deeran Fox and Sabanis, and I think that they intend to build around those guys. This is not a good fit for Ivy either. Terrible.

I think they would... I mean, this is probably just like the Pistons board bias, but Kegan Murray, I mean, he seems like a decent fit there. So let's say that he's the guy. I think you said, what, close to 40% on threes? So you can still space, floor around those guys and he'll still be able to crash the board and be a physical interior

player so yeah and at this point sacramento is kind of dumb and probably i mean they're by all accounts just charging ahead with this this duo of fox and it's a bonus and we'll probably be looking at guys around them it's a team i think might take a look at shadden sharp but i think it's just it would make sense but i don't think sacramento will do it yeah all right so indiana Hmm. Say it. Say it. He's from Indiana. Who, Ivy? Yes. Yeah. I think that's plausible. Just because Halliburton can play sort of out ball road.

Just Halliburton has been so good on the ball. But I agree. I don't think they would pass on him. Again, it's another team that could look at Sharp, but I think that they would just go with Ivy. Sharp is just such a wild card right now. It's tough for me to put him in there because I'm 99.9.9% sure that, well, at the very least, he'll be at the combine. I mean, he has nothing to lose by being at the Combine. Anybody can. go and they can withdraw by the NCAA draft withdrawal deadline, which I think is 10 days after the combine. So it's possibly go as he bombs the combine. People hate his attitude and he just decides he doesn't really get any interest in the top

10 and decides to go back to school. I don't think it's likely, but it's possible. So I don't think I'm really going to put him into this draft. So, yeah, I agree it would be Ivy at number five. And then who's picking sixth? Portland. Portland. Ooh, I really like the fit for them with Jail and

Ben. Because, I mean, like a lot, a lot has been made about, I actually think that, I agree, 99% of the time that the, the flip your roster and try to rebuild quickly or retool in one season, I think that's a horrible idea. But Portland is actually kind of positioning themselves in a pretty decent way. Damon Lillard, he's still a superstar, Anthony Simons. I mean, I've been high on him for years and now everybody's kind of seeing it, just how good he can be.

That's your back court of the future, not great defensively. And then if they do get that Pelicans pick and if the reports are true, they trade for Jeremy Grant. That's their power forward. Then they just have to address the three and then the five because I don't think Nerkich is their long-term guy there. No. But Jalen Durennes is a very good defensive center. And he can leap and he can finish the plays that Lillard and Simons is creating. Portland definitely knows how badly they need a center who can jump. They've been watching Nerkich for what two or three years.

And it's just clear that they need a guy. It's not just that. Wren's type of athleticism and the guy who can anchor that defense. Yeah, they've been a terrible defense for a long time. Exactly. And if you're back to, Simon. Yeah, Simon is going to make any better. Exactly.

You need that defense. So I think this is probably like, this is the scenario where Duren goes sixth. And I think that's probably the high end of where he'll go, barring something really extraordinary happening, either in the combine or just like a really good fit. But I like this for Portland at six. Yeah. I'm pretty sure it's Duren. Also, it could be really.

wrong, but that's the only way I've heard it. Just to net pick a little bit. Yeah, I agree. The Portland's issue has just been incredibly bad defense. That's been one of their issues. Their other has been just a comical lack of firepower at the forward positions. The best forward they've had since Marcus Aldridge left in 2015 to go to the Spurs. That's probably Robert Covington or maybe Carmelo Anthony.

and Covington is really over the hill at that point. He's not a very good player anymore. So, yeah, this would at least solve one of those. There are no real kind of slam dunk forwards. Maybe if Keegan Murray is still on the board, they select him, but we've already gotten rid of him in this draft. All right. And I think that rounds it out.

Oh, yeah, the pistons, of course, last but not least. At this point, I think your slam dunk pick is Benedict Mathron. Yep. Yeah, we talked about his performance in the tournament in the last episode, unfortunately, came to an end. he didn't have a great game in the Sweet 16, and they got knocked out. So this draft, this March Madness has been a nightmare as far as prospect evaluation goes. Boncaro and AJ Griffin are the only ones left.

So, but I think that you're looking at a guy who's a conceivable, really good fit with Cade in the back court, who can do some attacking on his own, who's a motion three-point shooter, who's highly athletic, can conceivably take on the point guard on the other team while Kay defends the shooting guard. He's got good size. And yeah, I think he's really the slam dunk option at that point. Like, unless you want to take a real leap and go with Dyson Daniels, which I think would be a real leap. So it would be Matherin or again, Shaden Sharp's possibility. Shaden Sharps, this is the big wild card in the situation.

There's no way of knowing what's going to happen with him. But I would consider taking Shaden Sharp at this pick. I mean, just based on, we know so little about him, and obviously there's no college film, and that's the only, like G-League in college. I don't like trying to evaluate prospects off of high school film, not that I'm like some pro scout, but it's just the level of competition usually for these guys.

It's just you can't compare how they're attacking legitimately great athletes. And Shaden Sharp, a lot of what he is projected to be able to do is off of athleticism and bounce. and verticality. So without being able to see that, it's really hard to say, well, I like him more than a guy like Ben Matherin. You know, he could be anything.

It's tough. Yeah, I think you really have to wait and see him at the combine. Yeah. Yeah. Because just... Mathrin, I think for both of us is good. Yeah, definitely. All right. Next one. Do you think beef stew actually likes eating beef stew?

I think we can safely conclude that beef stew is a meat eater. So obviously this question, yeah. What is it like one to one point two grams of protein for every kilogram of body weight. This guy's got to be eating a lot of protein. Yeah, one to two. Yeah. So, you know, obviously you have guys who are vegetarians, vegans,

Kate, of course, Kyrie Irving. But aside from that, I've got to ask, you know, who doesn't like you give beef stew? You know, take some relatively low fat, low fat beef, cut it into small cubes, put it in a red wine sauce. You obviously want to put onions in there. Red wine is really pretty great alongside your beef broth.

and from there there's a lot that you can do. You can go with white potatoes. My personal favorite is sweet potatoes. I'm a big fan of sweet potatoes. Carrots obviously are great. They'll soften in the stew. And whatever happens, you're going to get a really hearty mix. It's just going to be a great hearty meal.

You dip some bread in there, you know, preferably some French bread. And, I mean, sounds pretty awesome to me. I mean, I love beef stew. The problem is that for me is that it's pretty work intensive. but, you know, if I just had all the time in the world to cook, and so, you know, I'd be making it fairly often. So I would guess yes, just based on the odds. I'm still trying to learn how to meal prep, like, the chicken breasts that I make, like, once a week.

So I have nothing to contribute to this conversation other than the fact that, yeah, well, not the fact. Yeah, I think, I think Isaiah Stewart likes beef stew. Yeah, I would guess so. All right, another question about Stewart. How much will Stewart's emerge in three-point show? shooting open up the offense and telling him to use him differently if he has a green light moving forward. We talked about this earlier in the episode a little bit. I think that it will be very important for Stewart in order to be a plus offensive player. He's just, I mean, his decent garbage

man, aside from that, you know, he just has the capacity of pain clogger. So I think that, again, don't think he's going to be a long-term starter, but I think that it just will help his game a great deal if he can shoot and if he can shoot from mid-range as well as three. I think that is his route to being a good, a genuinely positive value offensive player. This season, he has been a negative value offensive player. Yeah, I'd be inclined to agree with you. We touched on it, obviously, in the episode. If he can space out to the three-point line, open up the paint,

and then just be that defensive disruptor that he is on the other end, that's a great role for Isaiah Stewart. You know, get the, get something there. I mean, I still like the idea of him just adding a mid-range game so that he can still, you know, go for those offensive rebounds, make things difficult in there. Be a presence on the interior. I mean, he's obviously still so strong

and he can probably still contribute that way. This is a discussion that we've kind of talked about behind the scenes. I don't think that we're, this is probably something we want to say for the offseason, but there are, I have this theory that you can still get a lot of the benefits of a physical interior center and the lane opening benefits of a spacing five

if you have a solid mid-range. But it's really more of a theory right now. But, yeah, if Isaiah Stewart can shoot the three consistently, like just enough to get an honest close-out or a guy, you know, sticking with him on the perimeter, I think that would dramatically change his outlook in terms of an offensive player. Also, just the ability to take that shot. Three-point shot is a very, very high percentage shot,

a very, very efficient shot, rather. Yeah. So also, as far as mid-range game goes, And so last season we saw some glimpses of this. You leave him open. He recognizes it and he takes a mid-range jumper. Well, not really a jumper, but he shoots. He doesn't really jump too much on even on his shots.

So, yeah, it's nice of the 3.1 if you can make that shot. If you can draw his defender out to the 3-point line, open up more lanes. And he can also attack close-outs. He can do that. But on the interior, if players need to stay close to you, and that just opens up space. Of course, if your defender just has to stay close to you or risk giving you a shot that you can make at a good percentage.

So don't underestimate that, particularly as Isaiah has gotten fairly decent at making passes when it's a good idea to pass. He doesn't force shots for the most part. And he's got decent court vision. And of course, he's a team first guy. And finally, well, we have one more we'll throw in there. I think this is going to be a short one. How much of a least will Casey have next year? I think this one's fairly straightforward long.

The Pistons will not be going hard for the playoffs next year. the front office loves Casey, the players love Casey, and well, maybe love is a strong word. He's very well liked. So I think like the season after that, if the Pistons are trying to make the, really, if the front office feels like the Pistons are in position to make the playoffs and they're not, then start thinking about it, but that's Casey's last season under contract. And nobody really, you know, from all accounts, really the belief is that he'll move into a front office role after that.

So I'd say he won't have a leash next year. my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that next year is going to be, yeah, I don't think next year is going to be like this year, where we're going to be contending for another,

for more top odds. I think next year it's like, I said at the beginning of this season, I think this team could be a 500 team. And since the All-Star break, they've definitely looked like a team that could be a 500 team. Now I think that they are kind of disrespected. People maybe don't take them seriously in the business.

They've been playing bad teams. That's part of it. They've been playing teams that are, that has helped. We'll play back next season, too. But, I mean, no, I mean, they've been playing, they've been playing largely, aside from the Celtics, and that when they've been winning,

they have won against teams that are either struggling, somewhat bad, or missing key players, or two of those three or all three of those three. But they've definitely been improved. And hopefully, do you add draft picks? I don't think you'll see much added in free agency. Yeah. And you'll see a better team,

but I think Casey's wish, I don't think he'll have, I don't think he's in any danger. If business, don't do well. next season. All right. And finally, outside of Cade, whose progression over the course of the off season will be most important and why? And that's a tough one.

So, Bay. Yeah, I mean, there's Bay. He's already made a lot of progress this season. I mean, you like to see him be able to attack effectively off the dribble and do some shooting in mid-range. He's redefined the ceiling for me, personally. I think that, I mean, with this addition of this driving game where he's, like, bumping guys off of him while he's on his way to the bass,

but I think that really changes things for me. So I think it's Sadiek Bay. He does have his struggles against better defenses. It's in the interior. So, yeah, I'd like to see him out of motion, you know, become that motion three-point shooter finally, though. That's a big thing. I agree it's Sadiek just because there isn't really, oh, one, actually difference in this guy would put number one, is homitou deal because if he can shoot three is at like 38 percent, then you've got your starting shooting guard of the future, I think, pretty

unequivocally. If he can just make that bit of improvement, because he is, including Cade, he is the best pure driver on the team. He is the best player on the team at attacking the basket. He is genuinely very good at that, despite the fact that defenders sag off of him. So if he becomes a spacing threat, he's got that shot in his repertoire. Defenders need to close out on him, and they're finished if they close out on him. So I would rank him number one and Sadiq Bay number two. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts? What do you think about Diallo? I think it's a big ask for him to boost his three ball by that much. I mean, he hasn't

really if he can do it. Anything over is, yeah, sure. Yeah, that's, it'd be nice, but I think there's, it's, yeah. Oh, that'd be huge. I mean, distance. Oh, absolutely. It's just, I'm not, I'm not holding my breath. Yeah, fair enough.

All right. So, any closing thoughts and our social media? Yeah, yeah. If you made it this far, thank you so much for listening. If you want, please follow us on Twitter at To the BasketPod. That's T.O. The BasketPod. If you want to leave us feedback, questions, things that we can talk about in future episodes, we'd love to hear it.

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