Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 92: The Pistons are Building the Right Way

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

This episode discusses the way in which the front office has gone about building the roster and team culture, and checks in on lottery odds. 

Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to Drive into the Basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike, joined by Tommy. And wow, this is the last episode we're going to record before the season ends. Yeah, wow. I didn't even realize that. Honestly, I'm kind of looking forward to the end of the season. I think at this point, it's really more about seeing how things finish out.

And a lot of what we're looking for at this point is just how the final scores shake out. So I'm kind of over it. And I'm ready for the next step. Yeah, we both said it many times. And I'll just going to repeat it since it's such a theme for me. I was really hoping for this not to be the case this season to be stressed down, just stressed going down to the wire. I'm less stressed I've determined than it was last season because it's less important.

The Pistons have already gotten totally their prospect of franchise player. Last season's draft was incredibly strong. And it has been absolutely as advertised. I mean, you look at the guys who have come out of that draft Cade, of course. who I still think is going to be the best player in the draft. Jalen Green's really come online. It's been very good on offense since the All-Star break. Mobley is Mobley, of course.

Jalen Suggs is really the only one of that class, you know, that kind of consensus top five, who hasn't done well partially due to injuries. But I think he's just also struggled, though admitted we haven't watched a ton of him. But you go on there, Scotty Barnes, Josh Giddy. And so, yeah, it's been really impressive. Yeah, I don't know how often it is that the top four.

of a class, like the top four picks end up being the four best players in that class. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I forgot that Scottie Barnes was fourth. I forgot about that. We were also sure that Jalen Suggs was going to go top, was going to go top four. I'm sure Raptors fans are now very happy that Asai made, did something unexpected. I know everybody just assumed that Suggs was going to go number four to the Raptors. So, yeah, it's been very impressive.

This upcoming draft class, considerably less impressive, unfortunately. and you still want a higher pick, even if you don't have the guy there, even if you don't want the guy who's there, you can always trade down or something. So I'm feeling less stressed. I'll still feel better once the Pistons put together, you know, they're playing some good teams. Once they put together three losses, that would be great. That'll guarantee them third best odds because the Thunder somehow managed to win tonight.

And fielding a horrible roster, including starting two guys whom they just signed a 10-day contracts today, Jalen Horde, who's their power forward, I think, is going to end up murdered by Sam Presti. I don't think his body will ever be found because he had a huge game. So anyway, as far as the last week for the Pistons, of course, three and a week since we last recorded, which isn't ideal for the sake of lottery odds. At two of the games, there was nothing could be done against the Pacers, against the Thunder, was what it was. You know, the Thunder are awful.

The Pacers played really badly, whatever. And then there was the win against the Severus. 76ers, which Tommy, I actually, I know that you were a big fan of that win that you saw a lot of good things in that win. Yeah, it's exactly like you said. It was a good win. And Jeremy Grant didn't even play that game. So the way that the Pistons went about winning this one was just through great team play and obviously some really good individual performances. But I think that game kind of encompasses what the Pistons are kind of looking like they're going to be in the future. And that's a team that plays really hard, doesn't let up. There was a point in the third quarter where

they were kind of slipping a little bit. They were down to 10, but they just, they fight right back. They're so strong mentally. And just the guys that are on this team, they're really doing us proud. This has probably been one of my favorite seasons and definitely one of my favorite Pistons teams in the past decade. I picked up Pistons basketball, I think, in 2014 or 2015 again. So I just got to say, it's been good, but the standard is frighteningly little.

Oh, no. I don't care about that. Like, when 2016, I just had to say it. 2016 was probably the last time where the team felt like it was actually maybe going somewhere, in my opinion. Like the second we traded for Griffin, I was like, okay, we're kind of hard capping our ceiling. But that's a whole other discussion. The point I'm trying to make here is just that the pistons have been so much fun and you can see

that there's a future here and that they're just growing. And that is so great to see. Yeah, absolutely completely agree. Yeah. I mean, from my part, the last time I felt like the team might actually be going somewhere was the beginning of that 2017-2018 season, the 14 and 6th start, you know, the win against the Warriors, the win against the Celtics. And then, of course, the wheels fell off and Jackson got injured. Yeah, I forgot about that one, actually. Yeah, that was fun. I mean, that's still

the best starting lineup of Pissons have trotted out since they traded Chonte Billets, which is a long time ago. In any case, yeah, 2016 was kind of cool because you had a really young team and you just traded for Tobias Harris. You know, you had Reggie Jackson, who was in his first full season with the Pistons put together a pretty good campaign. Drummond got an all-MBA nod that he really didn't deserve. And that was in part because the center class was incredibly weak. But whatever the case, things looked good. And then, of course, it went into the tubes the next season, 2016, 2017.

Tendonitis. Yeah. Tendonitis really derailed Reggie Jackson. He never came back from that completely. He was looking good with the Clippers now, but he was never going to turn back into the guy who was actually capable of leading a team to the playoffs. I don't know if he was capable of leading a team past the eighth seed because he was a guy. I mean, he came to the Pistons.

One of the reasons the Pistons got him so cheap is because I don't want to go to any team that's not going to let me be the primary option. And so he had a coach also whose name I don't even like to say. So I won't. And he had a coach who constantly enabled him and all of his worst habits. And Jackson just wanted to be the guy. And if Reggie Jackson is the guy in your team, you're going to have a pretty low ceiling. even Reggie Jackson back then. I mean, he's not going to be first option on a good team. Whatever the case. Yeah, the next season really just went off the rails.

Reggie Jackson got injured. Everybody besides Tobias Harris regressed. There was horrendous coaching, and it was just a mess. Whatever the case. Yeah. So this season has not been without some distressing elements to it, lots of injuries, lots of struggles. Season going much worse, I think, than most people anticipated myself included. but there's definitely been a lot in the way of positives, and I feel like a lot of those came out in the Sixers game. I wasn't thrilled about the win, but there were definitely silver linings to it.

Right, yeah. And the whole thing with it, I mean, nobody really had super high expectations for this season. I said at one point before the season, I thought this team could be close to 500 or about 500, and obviously that didn't come through, but that doesn't really matter because this is not the season that we were trying to compete.

This is just a season for growth, and we definitely got to see growth. Cade came out. He struggled initially, but he ended up turning into the player that we thought he could be. He's impactful. He's starting to look like, you know, 6'6, Chris Paul. I'm starting to really like that comp.

And then Sadiq Bey, I mean, he is just thoroughly impressed me recently. Like, he is taking it to the next level as a player in terms of, you know, this more and more unguarded-looking jump shot. He's making really nice reeds and dump-offs, you know, in transition, off of movement. And he definitely looks like, it looks like we have two building blocks going forward, at least two. And then there are guys like Hamadu and Frank Jackson who, you know, they had up and down seasons, but there's definitely stuff there.

There's a lot of good things that we got to see this season, a lot of pieces. And we have free agency money. We have another top pick coming. The Pistons are in a really good spot. Yeah. I mean, one thing I want to mention about that Sixers game, of course, Cade, you know, we've spoken a lot about it and we'll talk a lot more about him, I'm sure. You know, he had a great game.

Cedic had a good game. Killion, who has been playing considerably better of late, as I said in the last episode still has got a ways to go before he's really going to become an effective NBA player, but it's definitely encouraging. Isaiah Liverst has certainly been impressive, I would say, in the mere weeks since he joined the rotation. Just a smart player, clearly, like a guy of the highest character and clearly very well liked by his teammates, plays hard, plays for his team, he's a good shooter.

He's not the most athletic, but he is clearly very smart. And, you know, who knows what you got? I mean, honestly, if you draft him and he is a rotation piece when the pistons are a contender, that is a huge win. I mean, it does not need to, he does not need to come in and be like a starter caliber player in order for that draft pick to have been an enormous win, you know, from just being a good rotation player on a good team. I mean, fantastic.

And, and of course, also the locker room impact and the on-court impact. And Weaver has brought in a lot of guys who just, it's not just providing off the stat sheet. It's also, you know, there's a positive impact of having these really high character guys in the team. And I like that he selects for character. So, yeah, it was, it was a good win. You know, if you have to win a game, you want to win it that way. And that was good. Yeah. And who knows, maybe, again, I've said, Hami, you know, Hamidu, Diallo, yeah, it's a potential X factor, Frank Jackson. If he can just get that motion three point shooting down, that's a guy you want long term. And there's a lot of building yet to be done. But I just love seeing these teams,

I just love teams that are just all about guys who are going to work hard on both ends, who don't have egos and who are going to play for the team. Right. And I think that's one of the biggest differences between the Pistons teams of the past decade and a half and this one. It's definitely guys who play for each other. And I think the personalities that they have on this team, they don't get bogged down by the losses. It doesn't seem like it anyway. I mean, they don't, they're not apathetic to them by any means.

You can tell that these guys want to win. They want to work hard. But they're not going to let it get to them. And I think that's going to serve them well, you know, through the tough times that are going to come in the coming years. And hopefully that helps everything continue to go smoothly because, you know, we've seen it. We brought up Reggie Jackson earlier. Part of the reason that he ended up here in Detroit was just because he was really unhappy with playing. He was a jerk.

That was part of it. Yeah. Yeah, he was unhappy behind Westbrook. You know, there's, you know, egos that plays. And it doesn't seem like there's issues with ego on this team. You know, these guys want to play for each other. We have a franchise player who wants to get his teammates involved. He's always talking about how the team is looking, how he wants to lead these guys.

That's one of the biggest things for him. I remember there was a question at the beginning of the year where the Pistons Media team were asking players, like, what era would you want to play in? What Pistons era would you want to play in? And what year? And, you know, different guys said different things. And Cade, you know, just it's the sort of answer that you would never think of. He's like, I really want to be on that 2021, 2021, 2022 team because I think that we're building something special. You know, that's just, you know, you can't coach a player to think that way.

You know, that's just, that's, you know, good altruistic point guard. And somebody, somebody you definitely have, that you're proud to have leading your team. Yeah, we said this around the time of the draft last year. Actually, I believe this was in our episode that we recorded on draft lottery night, if not before that. Don't undersell the impact of. having a franchise player who also wants to be a leader. You know, Cade seems to be a born leader, very charismatic, very responsible. Just all about, like you say, getting his teammates involved.

And that's a big deal. Like when your best player is leading, is not only leading, but also setting the example. Like the teams I grew up watching most, of course, the going to work pistons. I mean, those guys were all about playing for each other too. And that was great. But for me, it's really the Red Wings teams. before I got back into the Pistons, I was an absolute diehard Rebnings fan for a long time.

I mean, those teams of guys whose leaders were just all about the wins. There was no ego there. Those of you were watching during Pablo Dotsukh's career know what I'm talking about. I mean, the guy could have scored so many more points if he were not committed to playing such a team game. And probably Zetterberg also in Wittstrom, of course, who's just the absolute consummate gentleman. I mean, nobody could ever see a bad thing about Wittstrom. but, you know, he just wanted to go out there and lead. Always about the team, never took a shift off.

None of those guys did. And it goes back before that to Iserman, for example, who is, you know, I think if I had to guess, amongst the average Detroit sports fan who has been around, you know, who is old enough to watch Iserman play. You got to think Iserman probably at this point is the model of leadership amongst Detroit sports in the recent past. And who knows, maybe you'll see Kate Cunningham up there with him. and that's, I know what we would all like to see.

Like I said, don't understand the impact of a guy who's incredibly talented, but it's all about the wins and nothing else. Yeah. And, you know, you got to give the credit to Weaver here. This has definitely been his philosophy from day one when he came in to build this team. He definitely talked about how we draft the person, not the player. And his thing is that he believes that guys who have the personality where they want to work hard, they're the ones who are going to figure it out.

And it seems like on top of that, he's just, just bringing in guys who are just great locker room guys. And I think that helps get these pistons through these hard times, and it makes the chemistry better. So I think that, I think honestly, the personalities and the types of guys that Weaver has brought in has done more for the winning culture than anything. Like, I don't think that the culture of, you know, the Pistons teams of the past half decade where they were, like, flirting with 40 wins.

I don't think the winning culture has been stronger on those teams just because they won more games. I think that the culture on this team is much strong. It's young, and obviously they have more to establish, but it's not one guy or two guys running a million pick and rolls, and then if you're a tertiary player, you're just kind of, you're out of it. It's everybody's trying to get involved. We have our guy who's creating everything. We just need more guys who can finish.

And I have faith that Weaver will continue to build the team this way, and that as we get more and more of those guys, they'll just continue to develop great chemistry. That was another thing. I think the Sixers game really proved this is the culminate. of a year of these guys playing together. You know, you definitely see way more in the way of interpersonal chemistry on the court than you did at the start of the season.

It's coming together and it's coming fast. Yeah. I mean, you and I agree the team needs quite a bit more talent or quite a bit more. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Or also probably quite a bit more talent development of the talent currently on the team. Again, I'll just go back to Hamadu. Still going to say it, if Hamadu can become, and who knows what the odds are on this,

because some guys just never get together a shooters, unfortunately. But if Hamadu can become a reliable three-point shooter, then I think you genuinely have a starting shooting guard of the future. Yeah, forcing on his close out. He'll make it back. Yeah, exactly. Well, you got the shot, and yeah, if people close out on you,

I mean, it's, you know, there's no good choice there. You either let him take the open three or you let him completely annihilate you by just blowing by you because Hamadu is just incredible athlete amongst an incredible, you know, in the midst of an incredibly athletic league. I mean, the guy is really something else. And all he needs to complete his game, like, that is all he needs to complete his game is a perimeter shot.

That's going to be the difference between him not being on the team. When the Pistons are contending, you can't have perimeter players, you can't shoot. So it'd be the difference between him conceivably being a starter on a contender and him, I would say very probably not being on the team if the Pistons have reached contender status. So, yeah, but you just need more talent. of course, whether you're finding in free agency, probably a couple years down the line, certainly in the draft. But you're bringing these guys onto, into a good team culture, without a doubt. Yeah, and I definitely hope that Frank Jackson gets another shot, because I still believe in him.

Like, there's very few guys on this roster that I think are capable of playing rotation minutes on a contender, at least, you know, more than a significant, like an insignificant, insignificant bench role, you know, player rotations shrink during the playoffs. So I think Frank is definitely a guy who could make it within that cut. He just didn't shoot it well. Obviously, he had a lot of bad luck with injuries. But there's a lot of potential there. I think that people have really cooled off on him, kind of want to see him gone.

I'm definitely not in that camp. I think Frank Jackson is an NBA player. He's sticking around. It's not even that. It's just like I would comfortably give him more money in a longer contract. I just, I see the potential there. He's got to prove it. And I really believe in it.

Yeah, he's got to prove it. I mean, last season, he's got to prove that last season wasn't an aberration. I mean, he's at issues this season with injuries. That hasn't been an ideal slow start. And if he can be that guy who can shoot motion three is on high volume, it's an incredibly valuable player, no matter the situation, as long as he can play defense and Frank plays decent defense. It's not like Bryn Forbes, who is a fantastic shooter and has been since his MSU days,

an excellent motion three-point shooter. You just don't want to leave open under any circumstances. But he's a liability on defense in the playoffs. And if you're a playoff liability, I mean, playoff offenses, they will just target you again. and again and again and again in isolation until they run you off the floor. So we can hope that Frank isn't like that. But yeah, when it comes to the number of guys who would actually on this team,

and again, what the Pistons have right now is a good start, a really good start. I mean, it became, I mean, just even having Cade on a team makes it an excellent start. And Cidic developing as he has, great. But if you're looking at guys who right now in the current stage of development, be rotation players on good teams, Grant, of course, Cade, Bay. I think Isaiah Stewart is a good backup. Isaiah Stewart be backup center. But as far as the other guys...

I'm putting Frank Jackson in there. Frank Jackson. He has the potential. I really believe it. I think he could be a footman. I think he could be a starter on a championship team. I don't know about that. I think he's that guy who's just moving around on the perimeter, gets it up quickly,

just takes a bunch of quick shots. Too targetable. I see that ceiling for him. Just too targetable on defense. I would say in any case. I would say he would be a bench player, most likely. I mean, you look at contenders. I mean, which contender in the league right now or in the recent past has a guy who's fairly undersized.

And, yeah, I don't see that he could be. I couldn't think of that quick enough to answer that. Yeah, I mean, you think of players, for example, like you have the six, was obviously that's Tyrese maxi. You've got the box that's now Pat Conantton, who's pretty long and actually super athletic. He had the highest vertical at his combine. Let's see. I thought popping them on my mind.

amongst the Lakers and the Lakers who could very easily be knocked out of the plans tonight. And that would be great. Though I'm not sure what the score of the Spurs game is now, it should be just about over. Whatever the case. Yeah, I don't think he has the potential to be a start on a championship team just because of his physical stature. But, you know, a guy who can shoot motion three is that's a very valuable bench player in any case. But I would say, yeah, if we're talking about guys in their current state of development, yeah, I would say Bay, K, K, Grant, Isaiah Stewart, and, uh,

Maybe Isaiah Livers. I mean, if he continues being able to shoot three at high percentage, that's a rotation player. Maybe your eighth man. Aside from that, these are the Pistons that have guys in the roster, like Killian Hayes, maybe Marvin Bagley, Pomadu, who could and Frank Jackson, who could play roles if they develop as hoped.

And we'll see. Yeah, obviously the Pistons are still in talent acquisition mode. 100%. No doubt about that. And that's definitely a silver lining to a season that has been very frustrating in some ways. that if the Pistons finish third worst, the absolute worst you will pick is number seven,

and you have a significantly higher odds picking higher than that. But moving on, I think there's a concept that I disagree with, and this is an old concept that has been with the team, primarily since, well, actually really since Tom Gores came in, this is one of his favorite concepts, was that idea of winning culture. And there are a couple ways I think you can define winning culture. One, just, you know, a culture that of just hardworking guys

and, you know, it's basically the culture, I would say, is going to be determined by the players and by the coach. And this is a culture that is made up of just those personalities. So that exists, absolutely. The notion that the Pistons can build a quote-unquote winning culture by winning, that I disagree with quite a bit. I feel like one of the reasons that Tom Gores refused to let the Pistons rebuild for nine years. He took over the team in 2011 And finally in 2020 After the Pistons were clearly

Griffin had gone down again It had gone down for the season And whatever and Tom Gores came out and said Okay we don't want to compete for the eight seat every year But before that he had seemed to have just thought that the Pistons As long as they start winning They can basically compensate for lack of talent with just a really good attitude

Or it's something And that I don't agree with I guess strongly He thought it was going to be like growth just incrementally. But that was never the case. I mean, going back to 2016, I think we won 44 games, and then what did we miss the playoffs the next year?

And then I think we missed it again. And then it was 2019 and we, that was not the, was it 2018 that we made the playoffs with Blake? 2019. Yeah. It was never this incremental growth. It's just, that's not how team building works. Unfortunately, you lose players.

Players get older. You know, if you have good players who you want to keep, sometimes they just, they go somewhere else. You can't help it. So you have to, the teams that are rising quickly are the ones that are acquiring talent fast and within a very small window. Yeah. I mean, but I mean, what I'm saying is that what I think that Tom Gore has believed was that basically you can win and then your team becomes more set on winning or something and that you can grow that way without. necessarily having enough talent and we just got to build that winning culture and become a winning team and the NBA more than I think any other sport is focused on top end talent.

That's partly because of just how few players are on any given team. But it's also just, I mean, the game revolves around high end talent. You just, you have to get that talent. And for a team like the Pistons, that's in the draft, for teams like the Lakers, you can find it in free agency. But yeah, so I don't subscribe to the notion that a team can, that the Pistons need to start building a winning culture by like winning right now. It doesn't, I don't think it just doesn't really work that way.

Because if you think about it in terms of that logic, then any team that's winning is going to have a winning culture also. And if both teams are playing and both teams have a winning culture, the team that has more talent is going to win. So, yeah, I think that Tom Gores came in with a very venture capital viewpoint on it. Like, we're going to make this a successful organization, like through power of will and positive thinking and hard work. and it's like that's not enough.

You just, you find yourself in the nightmare eight-seat situation like the Pistons did, and then you can't improve. Yeah, so more or less, do I think it's important or do you think it's a big deal? Or do I think it's a big deal rather that the Pistons haven't been winning games this season or that it would have been better if the Pistons had not put out tank lineups in some games, you know, to start building that quote-unquote winning culture? No, I don't think, I just, I don't think that concept really holds why. water. I think the Pistons have the culture that they're going to need now, just based on the players,

a lot of the players they have on the team, the players that Troy Weaver will continue to add with an eye toward character. And you say what you will about Dwayne Casey, and we've said plenty of bad things about his in-game coaching. He is a very good coach for maintaining a certain sort of attitude of players really like him. And so, yeah, I think that's the culture that matters. So, Dwayne Casey, I think Tommy and I both. believe he's not going to be the coach who is going to make the piss and the contender. I think he just has a certain ceiling. Great floor raiser.

Not a good ceiling. 100%. Yeah, no, I would agree with that. I think the plan and the rumor, I think we've said this, and we've probably seen it elsewhere, is that the idea is that Dwayne Casey will transition into a front-to-office role. I know he does some scouting work. Maybe he just continues to do that. Just be around the organization.

He's not a bad guy to have a round. It's just as X's and O's. They're just always not the most creative. But there's, he comes off. is very well spoken. Definitely seems like the sort of guy that the team respects. And I like him now. I mean, he didn't come to the team to be that guy, but, you know, the team pivoted and he rolled with it and he's done an admirable job on that front. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, that's where the Pistons are, though. Definitely talent acquisition mode. Now, I know that there have been some

recent cases of teams really going from zero to 60 very quickly. I mean, if we got the grizzlies, the Sons and the Mavericks were all at the bottom of the Western Conference. Like, was it two years ago, three years ago? Something like that, yeah. Yeah, because the Mavericks were in the playoffs two years ago. I remember this because Luca is an unbelievable playoff player. Like, yeah, they were in the playoffs in 2020. That was when he hit that insane game winner over the Clippers.

So I don't think it'll go that quickly for the Pistons, though, do you? No, and it's probably more a product of this draft class. Now, Kate is very good, but he's not, well, like, just going off like the three teams that we just mentioned, the sons, the Grizzlies and the Mavericks, starting with Dallas. Luca, obviously, just one-man show. He's elevated that team significantly. Yeah. And, I mean, there's obviously more than just him, but he's probably, he's got it in him to be a top 20 NBA player all time. Yeah, by the time that he's finished with his career. He's unbelievable. He's very special.

Yeah. And then to the Sons, I mean, they were horrible for a long time. Even with Devin Booker, they were just not winning very many games. And then they move up to number one. They pick up eight and then they get Chris Paul in free age. Or was it, it was a trade, right? Yeah, it was a trade with the Thunder. Right.

Who managed to take Chris Paul's contract in exchange for Westberg and get a bunch of picks and then to get another pick. That's right. By trading them in the Sons. Yes. And it's stuff like that. Like, you know, these big, not big names necessarily, but, you know, you need a lot of talent. That's a lot of talent right there. And it definitely elevated that team.

It made things a lot easier for Booker, not only to get his own shots off, but you just, there's, it's a three-headed monster. You need more than one really good scoring attack. As good as the Mavericks are right now by record, I don't think that the Mavericks are true contenders. They just don't have enough pieces around Luca. I agree. But you think about something about the Sons, Monty Williams has been an excellent coach for them. Like excellent. He's going to win coach at the year.

I think he absolutely deserves it. Yeah. And I mean, the way they play is definitely atypical of the traditional NBA meta. They take a ton of mid-range because they have two of the best mid-range shooters in the NBA and Chris Paul and Devin Booker. Aiden, that works really well for Aiton because he's not clogging the paint for those guys because they can just shoot over those guys. It's a good situation.

And then, like you said, Moni Williams, he's got them playing really fast. Yeah, Mekal Bridges. A lot of passing. Yeah, Mekal Bridges is a good team. one of the best three indie players in the league like barnon as not an exaggeration yeah and then you've got good depth it's it's an athletic roster and uh yeah and then the grisleys yeah a ridiculous anomaly it's john morant and a bunch of other good young players who are they're 20 and two without john morant this year and they're excellent with him too that the team makes it makes absolutely no discernible sense to me because the grislies don't have a ton of talent without john morant's in the floor but they're still excellent it doesn't make any sense to me at all What's their coach's name? Is it Glenn Taylor? No.

Oh, my goodness. I can't remember his name. We could Google it, but also a guy who's going to be running for coach of the year. They did add Desmond Bain. Desmond Bain has been very good for them. I was shocked that he dropped the number 30 in 2020. That made no sense to me at all. And apparently he said that he thought he was going to be taken by the Pistons, I think.

But I realized I didn't get that necessarily from a reliable source. So that could be untrue. But he's been very good. Stephen Adams has been a good piece for them, I guess, but you know, the team doesn't make any sense to me how they're that good. I mean, they just, they are so much more than the sum of their parts. Like how they're that good without Morantz? They're just so much more than the sum of their parts.

It's really something else. Yeah. And just bringing it back to the Pistons, like as good as the Pistons are and well, that's not true. But as fun as the Pistons have been this season, they definitely just need more talent. As great as Sadiq Bay has been, I think that right now, I'd put him, I think he's gone up from fourth option to... Taylor Jenkins, by the way. That's what it was.

Taylor Jenkins, that's what it was. There's the Taylor. But, oh, gosh, who's Glenn Tehr? That's probably somebody. I think he played... Totally different. Didn't he play for the Pacers a couple nights ago? Or am I, I don't remember.

Either that or he played in the NFL, I can't remember. Definitely not the Memphis coach, though. No. But, yeah, no. The team still just needs more talent, and that, unfortunately, does take us to the lottery odds. The Pistons, obviously, they had that three and a week, and the last we talked about this, they were in a three-way tie with Orlando and...

Sorry, I had to Google this. Sorry, I don't know. Glenn Taylor is the awful owner of the Timberwolves. That's what it was. Yes. Yes, that's what it was. Yeah. I think he's transitioning away from being the owner

the Timberwolves. Yeah, thank you. That was driving me insane. Anyway, back to the Pistons being terrible. We need more talent. And the best way to get more talent, it's the same way that we did it last year. It worked perfectly last year.

You know, it should, like people, I see, I see people make the argument that, you know, if Troy Weaver is really as good as he said, he is as we think he is, or, you know, if he really is this excellent talent evaluator, it shouldn't matter where we, where we're picking. But what does it say about Troy Weaver if he is also trying to tank the business? Like, it's not like we're running out our full lineups. Like, they want top odds. They want a high pick. If, like, just go back to last.

year. The best four players in that draft were taken top four. Just because you're a good talent evaluator doesn't mean you don't want. It doesn't matter where you pick. Sometimes talent just doesn't exist there. And it's not even that I think that Troy Weaver is some genius talent evaluator. I don't think he's ever, well, he's not going to say that obviously, but I think his thing is just he picks guys with the right personalities. But sometimes you can just recognize great talent. And I know that Troy Weaver has been scouting. most of these guys since high school, he talked about how the first time he was really up on Cade was when he was still at Montverd. So it should say something that you're the guy that we're entrusting to make these picks and the guy that we all think very highly of is still trying to tank our record so that he can get the best odds at a top pick.

It matters. You know, if you trust him to make that pick elsewhere or wherever in the draft, that's one thing. that's one thing, but it should say something that the man himself still wants a top pick and he wants better odds. Yeah, 100%. I mean, higher odds. Higher odds are better than worse odds. And again, every team in the top three has the same odds at number one. There was that lottery reform thanks to the process sixers. However, if you are number one, for example, you can only drop the number five. If you're number two, you can only drop the number six. So you're not guaranteed simply better odds. You're guaranteed to not fall further. But yeah, better odds, better than worse odds.

And definitely, again, I think compared to whatever gain you're going to get just from a few games, a few wins at the end of the season. Like, I don't doubt that Cade and Bay and Isaiah Stewart, these guys know what's going on. I mean, they know how a team is built. These are smart guys. They know what's happening. I mean, they know that there is a purpose to this. And they know that this is not going to happen next season. So, but, yeah, on the subject of that, and I totally agree with your point about Weaver.

Yeah, this guy is on board with the team. tank. It should be noted that West, you know, for all of us who were around watching last season, the Pistons were in an epic tank off in the last 10 games, like absolutely epic. Like, they had those absolute clutch loss against, against the Orlando Magic. And like, it took like some serious tanking, which Weaver was 100% on board with. There's no doubt about that because it's definitely not Dwayne Geese making this decision. The guy wants to win every game he can. So, yeah, it just, it came down to the wire, like absolutely down to the wire of the Pistons getting, placing 29th and ultimately winning the draft lottery.

So, yeah, on that note, getting on to the actual lottery standings right now, pistons have three games left. As we mentioned earlier, the Thunder won, which is a miracle given the lineup. They tried it out, but the Blazers are even worse. So as of this point, the Pistons can't get to 30th. And as I say this, I'm looking at Tankathon. Tankathon.com. It's where you can do lottery sims.

They also show where teams are in the draft lottery outs. it's funny. The teams with long losing streaks have, are listed in green. It's like lost eight, just Indiana and Portland. The Pistons who have won three, that's in a big fat red font. It's the opposite of what you know what it's about. Absolutely, they know what it's about, yeah. It's become a very popular site. So Houston, the Pistons can't catch Houston anymore. The rockets have three losses ahead and have only two games left. The Magic won tonight. They would have to win both of the remaining games and the pistons would have to lose all three. And Thunder are one win ahead. The pacer's are two wins ahead. So if the pistons lose their remaining games, and there is certainly a good

probability of that happening, they are guaranteed the number three spot, which means the furthest you can drop is seven, and you have the top odds at the number and overall pick, just 14%. And 52% at top four. Right. All I want at this point is to finish in that bottom three, so that our odds at the top four are as best as they can be. This is not a draft like last year is where there's really great talent all the way through the top five. This is pretty much considered a top three draft by most people. We obviously disagree with one of those guys, but we'll get into that some other time.

But the difference now between, you know, finishing 30th and finishing 28th is just that you can fall the five or you can fall all the way to seven. And functionally, I don't think there's a huge difference between, what you're going to get at between five, six, and seven. I think a lot of the guys who are- Number eight would be awful. That would be bad. Yeah, eight would be bad.

I do not want to fall to eight, but you know the Pistons really like Kegan Murray. I think Kegan Murray, honestly, he could even be there at seven. I think it's slim at this point, but I think he could be there as like Jalen Duren, Shaden Sharp. There's not, it's not horrible names at that point. But, you know, really this is a top two draft in our opinion. opinion. And as long as we finish bottom three, our odds at that stay the same. And if we fall,

we fall. You know, it's your, your chances of falling five through seven if you finish third worst is the exact same as the worst team's odds at falling to pick five. So functionally, there's not a huge difference there. The best team. Yeah, the worst team, right. Yeah, sorry. I got a little mixed up there. Yeah. The best odds. Tankathon's infected your mind. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's absolutely. agree with what you're saying. Yeah, I think that's in, so you have like your top two, of course, Chet Holmgren, in the opinion of many people, including the two of us, Chet Holmgren and Jabari Smith, you have beyond there, Boncaro, I really don't like Ivy,

Matherin and Sharp. So that is your top, well, I really like Matherin. These, he's mocked all the place. Yeah, Kagan Murray up there as well. Goodness, who am I forgetting? I mean, AJ Griffin, like March Madness just ended. And it was a really horrible tournament for those of us just wanted to get maximum watch time in the top prospects. It was awful for that. Just absolutely awful because only Boncaro and Griffin made it into the elite eight. That was not great. And of course, they were gone in the final four.

And a fantastic game with North Carolina. I mean, that was as good a game as you could have asked for between two bitter rivals. And it was it came down to the wire. The only- It sucks about Coach Kay's finale. Absolutely. That's too bad. for him yeah like the the only guy uh who is left who might realistically go in like the watery it was

agbaji played for kansas i'm a huge fan of oshah yeah no he's he's a guy that i don't know if i feel like i mentioned him on here yeah i did mention him on here at least like a month or two ago but if we do pick up that extra first round he's a guy that i would definitely like to consider at the very least taking there uh yeah yeah there you're the point standard like a lot of the best prospects were out early this year and it was not a not a fun viewing experience for us and a lot of them had bad games too yeah definitely uh so why don't we move on and do what we did last time i know you in particular are a big fan of tankathon sims and honestly i've been flipping through it trying to find an interesting scenario and i've been flipped through a bunch of them because

the pistons continue just repeatedly end up in number one or number two uh so uh and as much as that's what we see happen it's not quite as interesting So, all right, here's one. So this one lands the pastons in number four. Houston number one, Indiana, number two. The Lakers, number three, but regrettably for the Lakers, who might get knocked out tonight, that pick would go to New Orleans. So beautiful.

Yeah, and then the piston. So, yeah, I wanted to start out with Houston and number one. Houston and number one. Okay. So it's obviously, for me, it's between Jabari Smith and Chet Holmgren. They have Sangoon, but I don't know if they would pass. I don't know if he's really making the difference for them, so I'm not really going to make him a functional piece of this.

You know, I'm sticking to my guns. Well, yeah. Jabari Smith is my favorite prospect out of this draft, so I'm going to take him number one overall. Yeah, I would do that too if I were the Rockets. Like you've got, Jalen Green is really looking like the score that. He's finally the guy that I thought he could be. It's awesome.

I think he's, the reason I'd still place him, I think he's a little bit of a dumb dumb. I don't think he's, I don't think he's a guy who's going to be your primary initiator just because I don't think he's really got the smarts off the drive to really conduct an offense. So I think that's ultimate. I think that's going to be a bucket. Huh? Yeah.

So he'll be a bucket. But that's going to be a ceiling. And I think just having those smarts really really mix the difference between a good player and a great player. Same thing I'd say about Anthony Edwards. But, yeah, I think just adding an absolutely elite shooter alongside Jalen Green. and whoever ends up being the point guard over there is a good idea. Sangoon, I think they're high on, but they pass on Shet for that.

Who knows? But yeah. All right, so Indiana. So this is where things get a little bit interesting. I think that if they had access to Holmgren, they would go with him, maybe play him alongside Miles Turner or maybe just trade Turner. The Turner's value won't be incredibly high because he's a pending unrestricted free agents. It'll be in 2023.

What they would not do in this situation is take Boncaro. Turner would have a stroke. And this would not be a trade Turner situation. Turner hated, by many accounts, just hated playing next to Sabanis, because Turner basically just got consigned the perimeter on offense, and he thinks he's much better than that. And you get bunk area back in the exact same position. So, yeah, I think this would be a case for your draft Chet Holmgren.

Maybe you keep Turner through the end of his contract, just in wait, both Chet's hopefully bulking up next season, hopefully. But I think they'd go with Holmgren at that point. All right. So number three is the Pelicans. We're definitely not having Boncaro to the Pelicans. No doubt about that. No. You know, I think Jade and Ivy here, this is, we were talking about this like a few days.

Really? Next to CJ? Sure. Why not? I don't think that's a good mix, man. You've got two guys. Who's their starting point guard right now? Is it Alvarado right now? Like, my goodness. I don't know, but like, I mean, on the Pistons, I don't think Jade and I should be a point card.

but I think he'd be just fine there. He had issues in the tournament. Yeah, I mean, I've been watching him all year. He's at his ups and downs, sure, but he's nine out of ten NBA athlete. I would take Ivy there at number three. Like, if they need a guy, like another lead guard. And as good as CJ has been, I think he can take that. They've actually been playing CJ a point card.

Have they? Yeah, recently. Devante Graham's been coming off the back. bench, which is a little odd. But, yeah, Ivy, I mean, his issue is, I think it'll be best as a lead guard. But his ability to make the right reads is in question. I mean, I don't, I think that's very much a question mark around him that could end up being a big deal.

So, man. I mean, it's a different style of basketball. I think the difference between the Big Ten and the NBA is considerable. Yeah, there's a considerable difference. However, the ability to make the right reads. I mean, that's the same in either situation. You're playing against much better defenders in the NBA. The ability to make the right reads is that much more important.

I think Ivy's all right. I don't know about that. I think this might be a trade-down scenario because unless they feel like they're really moving on from Zion, you don't take follow. I mean, he plays the same position. No. And Zion, who if he can actually play is drastically better for their,

you know, they don't play the same role, but he's just Zion when he can play is virtually unstoppable on the drive, like legitimately. Like the guy was, the guy was based centers in this one. Yeah, but they've got, they've got Valenciunis now with spacing center. Right now I'm talking about this draft class So I mean their lineup would be Ivy C.J Ingram, Zion and then JV.

There's no I don't see an upgrade for JV in this class. No. I don't know. Who would you take, man? Oh, goodness. That's hard. I mean, if there were like a legitimately good point guard in this class, I mean, I think that would be the choice for the Pelicans. And I think this would be the draft in which teams aren't really quite as touchy

about where they're picking in the draft last year you just won. I mean, they won't be quite as touchy. But what I mean is that they may take a player who, like outside the top two, you just, you don't know what's going to happen. Put it that way. Like last year, you knew who was going to go. The only surprise was Suggs over Barnes, but you knew what the top five was. So maybe this is a trade-down situation.

Like the best point guard in the top ten is Tai Tai Washington. That's not a number three pick. So, no, definitely not. No. That's, so this is just a tough one. I really don't know. And it's possible they would flip this pick if they could get a genuinely good point guard from somebody. I don't know who that would be.

I think it's a good thing that we're not a Pelican's podcast. Yeah. This is like maybe a situation where they flip this for a lower pick and a better player. And a player who can help them win now because that really is their objective. Yeah. So that's a question mark there. But getting to number four, man, this is an interesting scenario. I don't take Polo.

Don't do it. Yeah. If there's another team that wants Palo, I mean, something. what the final forward showed me, for example, is just demonstrate it further as lack of all-pull utility. We're going to do a deep dive in Apollo prior to the, you know, in our draft series. We're just going to start in May at late April, excuse me.

Paul really, he's really benefited from the tournament and some recently buys. I think playing Michigan State really boosted him in a lot of Pistons fans' eyes. Possibly. I'm not high on him. Either am I. I'm not high on his. potential translation to the NBA. I'll put it that way. Yeah, it was fit with the Pistons either,

in my opinion. I mean, again, we'll do a deep dive. It's just my concern over his offball utility is very high. Definitely in the final four. We're definitely going to get to that before May 17th. That's the lottery. Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, yeah, his net contribution in the final four off the ball was one three-pointer. I mean, the guy has made, there's major issues off the ball that I think will continue in the NBA. But we'll get to that then. So for the Pistons, that if you can trade down for a team that wants Apollo, at this point, things go wide open. You maybe think about Matherin, who I think is quite promising. You maybe think about Shaden Sharp if he absolutely kills it in the combine.

But I'm going to have to take, I mean, I just don't know. I think you definitely don't take Keegan Murray at this point. Oh, I think I said that before. I think the pistons are reportedly very high on him. I think they, if it's the pistons making this pick, I think they would definitely consider taking him at number four. consider taking him, but I just don't know what to say at number four at this point with what's already happened. If I'm predicting it, I'm saying Keegan Murray.

Yeah, if you hadn't taken Ivy off the board, I might have taken him at number four. I don't really like him. That warms my heart. Yeah, but we'll talk about that later on. Okay. And from there, let's move on to some listeners submitted questions. Number one is the recent strong play we've seen from killing a statistical mirage, an aberration given competition and situation or a signal that he might become a useful player for the business.

I want to look up Killian Hay's stats in that game because I know he had that a lot of people saw the 26 and they were very impressed obviously that's his career high beat it by what like five points that's great but I don't think it was on the best efficiency exactly so I don't think that we had a question last week about like what has the plan for Killian changed based on his recent play and this is kind of the same answer but no I don't think anything has changed and I think that he was going to become a useful player. At some point, I'd like to go back to, you know, the beginning of the season because one of the things that we had talked about was, like, potential roles for players. And one of the things that I had said about Killian is I think he should come off the bench. I think once he comes off the bench, you know, get the spotlight off of him further down on the scotting report. And I think he'll have a better time there. And I think it's working kind of how we thought it might. So I would just keep him in the exact same situation.

I think he can be a useful player off the bench. And I think that's kind of his long-term role. Like we said last week, not a big fan of his fit with Cade in the back court, just long-term. I think people wanted to see it as a perfect fit. Definitely never saw that. And, you know, it's really just about where is he most useful for us? And I think even if he was playing a little bit better,

I would still want him off the bench because he gets the ball in his hands, that way and he seems much more comfortable with that role and much more useful overall. Yeah. So just because I forgot to do this earlier and to make editing quite a bit easier on me, we're going to do a quick word from our sponsor at this point. So two titles were up for crowds in the stacked UFC 273 fight card. Join the action with draft king sportsbook, the official sports betting partner of UFC. New customers can bet $5 in any fighter and get $100 in free bets. Win or lose guaranteed. Sportsbook isn't available in your state yet. You can still get on the excitement. Everyone can play for a share of millions and prizes with Draft King's

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21 plus restriction supplies. He's show notes for details. All right. So Killian has it been an aberration. I mean, the Pistons have played. So Killian, as we said in the last episode, definitely is improving, and that's very encouraging. I think that his long-term role was backup. I agree with you, Tommy.

I don't think he's a good fit with Cade, and I don't think he's going to find his best role, and get his best value, rather, if he's not running the offense. So if he can be the long-term backup point guard, great, a guy who can step in and start when Cade has to take a game off due to injury or otherwise. You know, fantastic. Like what we've been seeing from him is, you know, Cade runs. the offense for like eight minutes. Then Killian comes in and he's more on the ball and Kate is playing a more off ball role. It just kind of reminds me what the Warriors would do

with Curry and Livingston back in the day. So there's 26 points against the Thunder. Yeah, not a great game. Playing against a terrible team. His efficiency wasn't very good. And, but, you know, it's progress. He still has a ways to go. Got to get better at attack in the basket. Got to become more efficient. Got to become a reliable three-point shooter. And also learn to play defense on quick guards. He's a good defender against everybody else. So encouraging progress has a ways to go. Next question. Who are some potential centers? You can see the Pistons targeting in the draft outside of Chet and Duren. The only one that comes to mind for me is Mark Williams, a seven foot thereabouts with a seven foot seven wingspan for Duke. Pretty

athletic and absolutely play above the rim, strong rebounder. Doesn't really have much to offer beyond that. But it's a decent rim protector also. So he's really the only one that I've looked at I really like. The other one, the other name that has come up that I've seen potentially in that first round is Coloco. Kassler Walker also, I believe in the set. Yeah, I mean, given how much Auburn I've watched, I'm not, Walker, he does play for Auburn as well. So I've seen a decent amount of him. He doesn't excite me for the NBA. I'm not sure why he's ranked as high as he is. Yeah, he doesn't really interest me. I guess it's worth mentioning his name for if people want to look him up. But I'm much.

I'm a much bigger fan of Mark Williams. Yeah, Kessler Walker Kessler. Sorry, I messed that up. Walker Kessler. Yeah, you threw me off. I was like, oh. Not very athletic. I mean, in the Pistons, you know,

if you're going to spend it on a traditional center, you want to go with the guy who can really play above the rim. The weaknesses, so guys weren't all that athletic in the NCAA. It's less of a noticeable weakness because the NCAA is a drastically less athletic league. But if you're playing a traditional center, You want him to be able to switch. You want him to be able to roll exposed to the rim, play above the rim. And Walker Kessler can't do that.

So, and Koloko, meh, pretty raw questions on defense. So, yeah, I would say Mark Williams is the only one that would interest me. But, you know, if in the, I'm a likely event that the Pistons trade for what could be like the 13th pick from the Pelicans, maybe look for him at that point. But unless the Pistons are like getting another pick in the middle of the first round, I don't think it's too likely. All right, the biggest priority the team needs filled in the offseason, the two or the five. Probably a pretty quick question.

Ooh, I would, it would be really cool if we could address the five long term. I think that maybe you can, this is an interesting thing that I've been thinking about recently, and it's how important centers are because it seems like you can get a lot of the production of a good center for like very little money, but I think that centers are very, very impactful. And there's probably like some formula in terms of how good a center is and how impactful they are. And I think that the five is actually a very, very important position that's kind of underrated right now. I think the two, you can just throw somebody there who can just put up threes on decent volume and a decent percentage, and you'll be fine. But I think centers are very, very important in the league right now.

Yeah, I'm going to disagree. Well, there are a couple things. Number one, unless the Pistons address either of these positions in the draft, they're not strongly doubt they're going to get addressed this offseason. unless the Pistons signed Brunson, for example, because the talent is just not there. It must be by some miracle drawing Zach Levine or Bradley Biel wants to come play for the Pistons. And these are just not likely eventualities, likely possibilities rather. So I feel like center, it is important.

It's also the most disposable position. If you have very talented guys in the other positions, you can basically just throw a guy out there who can defend a traditional center can defend the rim and roll hard of the basket and catch lobs and finish offense strongly in the restricted area. I disagree on shooting guard here. I mean, you're playing bay at forward, probably small forward. Unless you're getting like an excellent scoring talent at power forward, you're really going to need a guy, another guy to create from the perimeter and the pistons that. I think the pistons are likely as going to find that at shooting guard. So, because I can't really think of any power forwards. They're likely to draw in free agency unless

like everybody's, you know, every Michigan State fan's stream comes true and Miles Bridges just hates it in Charlotte and demands to sign and trade. But I don't see that happening. So, but my answer is that unless it's in the draft, I don't expect either of them to be addressed long term in the upcoming off season because the free agent class is just terrible. Outside of the big names and the big names are probably unattainable for the business. Whether it's because they're just huge names who aren't likely at all to come to the Bistons or because they're a restricted free agents.

Okay. How much better can Bay get at the deep ball and where could he end an NBA war if he's only behind Damien Lowe to most three-pointers made through two seasons? So Bay is like 21 three-pointers behind Willard for the record or player within his first two seasons. Bay has become, we all know it, an excellent three-point shooter on high volume and he continues to develop in terms of the ways he can get that shot off. So something to note.

So the three ball has proliferated over like the last. six years, six or seven years. And so you have a lot of players in the annals in the NBA were excellent shooters, just didn't take anywhere near that many threes because it wasn't that integral part of the game. So I don't think it necessarily puts him in terms of, you know, I know in terms of NBA law. It's an impressive stat. But how much better can he get at the deep ball?

He's been taking kind of sidestep threes. He's been taking sort of mostly just kind of pull-up threes, so to speak, basically pull-up threes. how it would get better is if he can be a guy who runs around screens and shoots off that screen. It's an additional option. But right now he's very capable. And also if he can become kind of like that four level score who can score like 5 feet behind a three point line, like great, so much better. But right now he's already an excellent score, an excellent three-point shooter.

Those are the only ways I really think he could improve. Yep. He's up to 35.2% from three on the year. I think he can get into the 40s. Well, he was terrible to start. Exactly. Yeah, horrendously. I mean, he's still got issues with consistency. Yeah, he does at times. So, yeah, consistency also.

But he's definitely on his way to being one of the league's elite three-point shooters. Also, one of the league's Ironmen. I mean, a guy plays an enormous number of minutes and plays in every game. Like, he's going to end the season that this is partially due to COVID. They would end the season if he plays the next three games is one of the only two players. If Mikul Bridges also plays the next, the remainder of the games, they are the only two guys now who can start all 82 games. And again, part of that is that he was spared by injury and spared by COVID. But he's also top five somewhere in total minutes played. He usually at this point plays the entire first quarter and then like three or four minutes in the second quarter before he sits down.

So hard worker keeps in great shape. And finally, why did we start Cade versus Oklahoma City? I think there are two things that could have happened that brought this on. Number one, Cade was actually good to go. but he sat the next game because of a sore hip, maybe that something actually happened. Or maybe they just wanted him to play. And then he and Bay just sat down and didn't play the rest of the game.

And the same thing happened with Bay. I know that Bay wants to play every game. He hasn't missed a game since high school. So, though my guess probably is that Kate aggravated his hip. And assuming that was like a, I don't think they would have been invented an injury for Cade. So that's my guess is that T just ended up.

He wasn't going to play heavy minutes, but he ended up out because he aggravated something, and they said it's not worth it. It's okay. See him we want to lose anyway. Yeah, truthfully, I don't know. I'm still wishing that we had lost a few more games and we were still kind of in the thick of it. It really bothered me when they played him just that seven minutes. It's like, play him or don't, you know, don't hurt his averages. Yeah, it's just one game, though, out of 62, I think. So it didn't really have that much of an impact. All right, closing thoughts and social media.

Yeah, if you made it this far, thank you so much for listening. If you're on Spotify, give us a rating. If you're on Apple, same thing. Leave a review. And if you'd like to, we'd love it if you would follow us on Twitter. We love interacting with you guys hearing from you guys hearing feedback and ideas for future episodes. So follow us on Twitter at To the BasketPod. That's T.O. The BasketPod.

Fantastic. All right. As Tommy said, thank you all for listening. We'll catch you in the next episode.