Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 94: Troy Weaver Sticking to the Plan & Top Seven Prospects

Episode Date: April 20, 2022

This episode dissects and discusses important bits of the end-of-season press conference featuring Troy Weaver and Dwane Casey, then goes into each host's top-seven draft big board. 

Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to Drive into the Basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike, joined by Tommy, and we are one week closer to the draft lottery. It'll be a month away tomorrow. I'm excited, man. It's a big day. It's definitely a big day. It feels like it's really far away right now.

We've got the playoffs in the meantime, but it's definitely a long time to wait. I think this is a common theme for Pistons fans. The season had its ups, had its downs. Pistons finished in 28th. and the draft lottery odds. And that's the, you know, the next, the first big date and what's going to be a very important offseason for the Pistons. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, the Pistons are still in the early stages of the rebuild. A lot of things, a lot of pathways this can take. So these early stages, they definitely affect out the way that this goes. So everything's critical right now. Yeah, everything's very important with the draft, draft, I would say, especially. But, yes, we're going to talk actually primarily in this episode about the offseason. and I guess that's no surprise at all. But, yeah, we spent much of last episode, you know, doing a bit of a season retrospective.

And, yeah, now we're looking forward. So one thing I think we should talk about is the press conference that Dwayne Casey and Troy Weaver held. I think it was last week. And there were a lot of good tidbits in there about how the Pistons plan to continue building. Yeah, it was definitely refreshing. I mean, when you hear these guys talk, Troy Weaver especially, they definitely seem like guys who, who have this vision in place and they want to stick to their guns and kind of see this thing through no matter what. And I can respect that. I mean, you don't want to be, it works until it doesn't,

but I would say to this point, it's worked very well. And I think we're both very happy with the way that they've taken things and the way they've approached rebuilding the Pistons. Absolutely. So one thing, like probably the most prominent theme of the press conference is how the Pistons plan to continue building. Now, as we all know, the Pistons are going to have a great deal of cap space this summer. And in fact, there are only four, perhaps five teams in the MPA who will have actual cap space. Those are the Pistons, the Magic, the Spurs, the Grizzlies, and maybe the Trailblazers who may or may not operate as an above the cap team that gets into some complicated salary cap-related stuff. But Portland may or may not operate in a way that leaves them cap-space.

So that, of course, begs the question, you know, will the Pistons go full speed ahead, you know, try to sign whoever they can in free agency use that cap space right now and try to make as big of a step forward as they can through free agency this summer? And by everything that Troy Weaver has said and Dwayne Casey has said, and from everything we know, even before that, about how they've chosen to operate, the answer is definitely no. Yeah, honestly, when you watch this press conference, it feels like the way that he's approaching every aspect of this rebuild. is really not about, like, how can we get better quickly? It's really more about, can we bring in the guys who will continue to further this culture that the team is building, you know, this locker room that Dwayne Casey is working hard to cultivate? And credit to Casey, I mean, it really seemed like the guys were buying in. And that's a difficult thing to do in a season where you've had these extended losing streaks. The team is very young.

So those two working together, Troy Weaver and Dwayne Casey, Dwayne, you know, leading these guys in the locker room and then Troy Weaver. or giving him guys who are coachable. It's really seemed to work well so far. So it was very encouraging to see that Troy is still prioritizing these guys who are high character. He says people, not players, in terms of who he likes to bring in. And that philosophy definitely carried, and he mentioned it a lot in this press conference. Yeah, absolutely. He said when he took over the Pistons, that he wanted to build this team in a mold of the great

pistons teams of the past. those are, of course, the bad boys and the going to work pistons. Teams full of hardworking guys who compete on every play on both ends and who play for the team, play for each other and not for their own individual performance. And he was asked in this press conference, how hard is it to stay disciplined in terms of bringing in the right guys and not compromising that sort of method, or that sort of selective process that selects really heavily for character?

So how difficult is it to stay disciplined and not compromise for a guy who might not have the right character, is more talented. And Weaver was just very unequivocal about this. They are not willing to compromise on character. He considers doing otherwise, you know, bringing in guys who are not high character players to be a shortcut that isn't sustainable. And he is all about building a sustainable model.

And his words, we don't want to just appear. We want to arrive. And he said it might take longer in some of the people's minds, but not in theirs. He thinks they're building and that they're building in the right way and that they're always going to make sure the people that they bring in are the right sort of people to help the team grow. Right, absolutely. You can tell that they're approaching this with like the long term in mind. They're not trying to get better year over year. They're working towards being contenders. I think they're trying to get better year over year, but. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but it's like,

when I say that I think of like the Pistons teams of the past, like the person who shall not be named, like what they kept trying to do was whenever they had cap space, they would spend it and they would, I don't know what the plan was there. It feels different than that. Certainly. Yeah. Make the playoffs. And I don't you maybe make the playoffs but I feel like maybe they and certainly the fan base there were people who thought they would just continue to get better and you can say his name it's not going to bother me yeah I don't know what Stan's philosophy was like I mean the team kind of fluctuated around 40 wins for like four years they never really seemed to get better but this Pistons team because of where they're starting obviously they're starting from a lower win standpoint but they have a lot more flexibility they have a lot of young talent that will continue to develop. so it feels different. And that's important. Oh, Van Gandhi, I mean, I know that he wasn't, he wasn't allowed to do this by Tom Gora's. I mean, when he went into his second season after, he pretty much rebuilt the team completely

after the first season, just traded away a lot of guys. You know, Greg Monroe hit the road. That wasn't the greatest because the Pistons weren't able to trade him. He took the qualifying offer hardly anybody does that. But, of course, the team that he inherited was a mess. But he chose to keep it that way by refusing to trade Josh Smith when he had the opportunity. I could have traded him to Sacramento and so on and so forth. Van Gondi also did not select for character in the least bit.

I mean, the guy had absolutely and utterly no, he put no importance on it at all, which is why the pistons ended up with Reggie Jackson, Andre Drummond is the cornerstones of their team. And Jackson, by the end of his tenure in Detroit, model teammate, absolutely model teammate in Los Angeles. When he first came in, it was hard on the heels of him forcing his way out of Oklahoma City and horrendously self-centered, nonprofessional fashion

in the way that nuked a stray value. And this is kind of like the thing where it's like, you know, if the dude did somebody else, he'll do it to you. I mean, he was highly egotistical in his first couple seasons, and Drummond was drumming. Of course, we know that, an awful mentality. And those teams didn't really have that sort of cohesion or mental toughness. You know, the environment, I have to think, wasn't the greatest and whatever.

That's long in the past. But it's like you said, him and Wade staged Dumas before him. I mean, the Pistons were operating on such a horrendously short-sighted model for about 10 years, and it was miserable. and it went nowhere. Right. And the other problem in the Stan Banga Underier was obviously bad contracts. I mean, we just finished paying Josh Smith like what a year or two ago. A year ago.

I think his money just came off the books. Yeah. And that's another difference that seems to be there with Troy Weaver because one of the things that he said actually when he first got to Detroit, and this was in his introductory press conference, Christian Wood was a free agent. and one of the reporters asked about him, and Troy said, I have a number in mind, and he was talking about average annual value or whatever the contract number. Troy Weaver doesn't seem like a guy who likes to overpay

just so he can get a guy. And I know there's a lot of discussion about various free agents in this fairly weak, free agent class, guys like DeAndre Aidan, Miles Bridges, Jalen Brunson, all these guys are on teams who currently really need their production because there's no easy way for those teams to replace them if they were to leave. So I don't think Troy is going to overspend just for the sake of getting one of these guys.

Even if he can. I think he has right. And yeah, and that's a good point. Like a lot in most of these cases, I think the teams that they're currently on are able to go off way more. Well, Aiden and Bridges. I mean, if they decide they want to match. I mean, they have all the control. Teams who have restricted free agent rights on a player have all the control for what happens to that player.

So, yeah, the Pistons. no team can just, you know, can drag Aiton or drag bridges away from Phoenix or from Charlotte unless those teams are okay with it. Right. And even for the Pistons to begin to, you know, pull one of those guys out way by making an offer that the other team wouldn't want, it would probably be the Pistons way overpaying. That's just the way that restricted free agency works these days. And from this press conference, it really seems like the Pistons aren't going to pay anybody any amount that they don't think they're worth, just for the rest. the sake of bringing them in.

I think Troy's mentality is, I have a number in my head and I'm not going to exceed that, which is good for avoiding bad contracts. Well, definitely. I mean, I think it just goes back to the Sleburn team-building philosophy. I mean, they're really focusing on culture and only bringing in guys whom they feel fits that environment that, you know, fit that culture. And so they're not going to shortcut it that way. And, well, I mean, just even the focus in that philosophy just shows the methodical way

in which they're approaching this rebuild. And that's been enabled, fortunately, by Tom Gore, as the owner who for eight seasons, eight or nine seasons, after he took over the team in 2011, refused to rebuild, thought, you know what, in order to be just got to build a winning culture, as if that was an end to anything, and just got to try to win as much as possible, got to win, got to build that culture.

The guy's just obsessed with culture. But in a season on press conference, he came in and said some things, which were pretty radical for him, like really kind of revolutionary stuff. In particular, well, what I'm referring to in particular, or it's like not things. This is the thing he said, which is, you know, we're able to build a culture while losing.

And to be honest, losing is the best thing for us right now. I'm talking about draft position. And it's like, oh, my goodness. Like, he finally gets it. But I think it's also a really big deal to him that Weaver and Casey are able to build and maintain what he sees as a great team culture while they're losing. But that was also comforting because I think we can reliably say that, at least for now, Gores is not going to be pushing this management team anywhere that they don't want to go.

Right. Right. And you mentioned, you know, the job that Dwayne Casey and Troy Weaver have done, threading that needle, you know, losing games, preserving draft position while also keeping a healthy locker room. That is a difficult task. And it's definitely those two working together towards that goal because Dwayne Casey, I mean, for all the criticisms that we've had for him and his exes and O's, he's definitely, a great guy to have in your locker room as the head coach, you know, leading these young guys. He mentioned, you know, showing them how to win, you know, building winning habits is what they called it. And then Troy Weaver is the guy bringing these people in, you know, these guys who are coachable who want to work hard, basketball junkies. And I think that's a winning combination

because the culture of this team is certainly one of hard work, effort on every play. We're seeing it. They talked about how they had prioritized their defense and that's really important for a young team. Yeah, they're going to build that first. You legitimately see the difference. Yeah, yeah, you see the difference in what this is versus the team from two, three, four years ago. It's working very well, I'd say. Yeah, definitely.

I mean, the idea is to build a team that is more than the sum of of its parts in every situation to build a team that is more than the sum of its parts. And one of the ways you can absolutely lend one of the ways you can ensure that a roster, or at least give the best chance for a roster to be that way is by fielding.

Again, a bunch of players who are just very high I mean, it has to go beyond that with the talent and the fit as well. But, yeah, like I said, definitely demonstrative of the highly methodical approach they're taking to building this team, no shortcuts. And another question he was asked with respect to the upcoming free agency was, you know, about fan expectations of really making a huge step this summer. And he said, you know, that expectations are what they are. The team is going to stay true to its building process that he would never put a cap on

the team. That's an important one. and in this process, they'll stay with their core values and get the right people. And that's a very important concept that, you know, obviously Troy Weaver fully understands is not putting a ceiling on your team by making the wrong moves or making what might be the maybe the right moves too early. Like, okay, you get Cade and you go out and spend whatever you can in free agency and try to feel the best team possible and kill your draft position or something.

I mean, I guess that's not a great example, but just doing things at the right times and not doing something that's going to put a ceiling on the team going forward because they want this team to be a contender and to be a sustainable contender. Right. And I think that while the team has this flexibility where they're able to keep adding these young players with either good picks until their pick. Who owns our pick once we make the playoffs? That's the thunder right now. Is it the Thunder? Yeah.

Yeah, they traded it in the shooting. I shouldn't be surprised. Yeah. Yeah, they own basic. I wonder what percentage of future picks. in the league they own right now. It's got to be pretty high. They're going to have to get rid of some of them at some point.

I feel like they have too many first round picks to even use all of them. Anyway, but yeah, no, I mean, they talked about how they're going to be aggressive. And I feel like that could be, if you just, if you don't take it in context, that could be seen as like, we're going to look to get better. But they were talking about being aggressive and turning over every stone, looking for every opportunity to make the team better. Because one of the things that Troy acknowledged is that the team still does lack talent. But he was adamant.

about adding talent without sacrificing. I wouldn't say that they said that they lack talent, but he said that they really need to continue to add it. Yeah, yeah. He said add talent, but without sacrificing the culture and their philosophy in terms of the people that they bring in, which is very important.

And as long as they have this flexibility and this ability to bring in guys, I don't think that they're going to rush it. So they don't have rookie extensions starting to hit until I think 2024. So it's not like they need to add, they need to add anybody right this second. If they don't find the right guys or at the right number, I don't think they're going to this season.

It's different from what we've seen in the past where it's like once they and once the Pistons have money to spend, they just spend it immediately. That's how you end up with a contract like John Lewers. But I don't think that that's going to happen this off season. Yeah, definitely. Just to continue on with what he said on that subject, actually, he said that, again, you said they'll be aggressive this on return every return

over every rock. And yeah, that's, I agree with you. Basically means look for the right opportunities. If the right opportunities aren't there, then you don't do it. But he said that he intends again on the team arriving and not being a flash in the pan. You know, they want to get there. They want to stay there and be built to last. And that's the approach that they're going to continue to take. I think that is absolutely wise in every capacity. So yeah, build it right. I'd wait for the right opportunities and keep that culture. And a nice thing actually about coming up to 2024. So that's that's Killian Hayes, Isaiah Stewart, and Sadiq Bay. Now, two of those guys, Stuart was number 16 and Bay is number 19,

have very small cap holds. So even if the Pistons are carrying a lot of cap space into that summer, I'm looking at guys like Jalen Brown or Devin Booker, though they won't really be impeded by those cap holds, unless they had signed the extensions in the season before, which may actually be the case with Sadiq. But probably not Isaiah, and I would guess probably not Killian,

though his will be significantly larger. Anyway, that's getting into the far future and cap holds and whatnot. But definitely, I know for both of us, very encouraging to hear all of this stuff, even though we pretty much knew it already. Yeah, I mean, like he said, he's sticking to his philosophy, and that hasn't changed, and we appreciate that because we don't want shortcuts. It's like he said, we don't want to cap this team, get too good, too fast. Everybody's aware that the team needs more talent,

and it's refreshing to hear them say the same thing. I wouldn't say too good too fast. I would just say I'd build the team in a way that prevents it from making any further progress, the progress that it would need to become a contender, to become a championship caliber team. Yeah, I mean, I understand what you're saying. You don't want to ruin your draft position ahead of the way too early, which fortunately didn't happen. But I remember, you know, one thing that Troy actually said in the press conference, I mean, he really praised the performance of the Pistons after the All-Star break,

thought that they really got it together, particularly defensively. And, you know, the Pistons were, I think, a top 10 defensive team after the break. They were playing largely pretty easy competition. But nonetheless, that's something they did play a lot better. And he said that he and Casey both said, I believe that's really the most important thing to come out of this season is that the guys learn what it takes to win. That said, I think it's telling that the Pistons, you know, that that was important. But the Pistons also did what they had to do to preserve their draft position. I mean, it wasn't all let's win as much as we can for the sake of this.

It's like, this is great, but there's also something else that's important here, and that's getting the best odds that we can. Without going horribly overboard, like several other teams did. Right. And, you know, they mentioned that post-all-Star break performance and how well they played, and they said it was just really, really good for the team. That was another thing that kind of stuck out to me. But I just wanted to make, just worth mentioning, you know,

as well as things went in terms of lottery positions, position and all of that. It was important that the team did get some wins there at the end. I think that worked out for the best. Like I said, I think they threaded the needle really well. Yeah, we can fall all the way down to seven, but our overall odds at the top, they're where they should be. So well done.

Definitely. Yeah, I think they have something like, I don't have the odds in front of me. It's well under 10% chance of falling to seven, if I remember correctly. But I could be wrong. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I know definitely another successful year for the rebuild. it's worth noting that a great deal had to go wrong in order for the Pistons to end up 28th.

Weaver went over that. So I don't know if you want to say, you know, yay, great, that things went wrong. However, if the Pistons go into the lottery and end up with the, you know, top three pick, then, you know, well, whatever, things happen as they happened. But they went on to talk about just more culture stuff, guys, you know, particular guys like Sadiq Bay, whom they basically told this summer to try to get more of a life outside of basketball because all he wants to do is work on basketball. And, you know, Cade and in the leadership that he brought to the team,

I thought it was really poignant and what we were said about. You know, we wanted to draft a leader in this draft. In 2021, it was important for us to draft a leader. James Edwards of the Athletic actually wrote an article in which he confirmed that, because we had heard back last summer, that Kate had had a really bad workout, and it turns out that that was actually true. but they didn't that just didn't matter you know they thought so highly of him not only as a player but also

as a leader and they said that he came in and really filled an niche as uh as the team's my most vocal leader that also is just a player on the floor who basically knows what's happening knows what all his teammates are going to do and that was just really cool to hear i don't think you're going to find that i think kate'll be the best player in terms of skill and also he has definitely as a leadership quality that, you know, definitely Evan Mobley or Jalen Green do not. Right. That was definitely a case where his reputation preceded him. And thank goodness, because I'm thinking back to that draft cycle,

there was news that Jalen Suggs also had really bad workouts for the Raptors, and ultimately they were bad enough that they passed on him. And good decision by them. They got Scotty Barnes. And Suggs ended up going to the magic. But thankfully, the Pistons didn't look at Kade's workout and say, yeah, no, we got to pick somebody else. So we lucked out there.

Or, you know, you can credit Weaver and Casey and whoever for just making the right decision because we got the right guy. Yeah. I mean, it was going to be the decision unless something really radical happened. I mean, I think we can allow for that. I mean, K was the consensus number one overall pick. He played really well in college. He just had all the intangibles.

I don't think just one bad workout was really going to do anything for that. But, I mean, what I'm thinking about right now is. in terms of how the Pistons have conducted themselves or how the front office and the coaching staff have conducted themselves such that the Pistons are where they are. You look at them compared to, for example, Orlando, which is kind of like a mess of players, you know, you hope Col Anthony works out. You hope Jalen Suggs works out. Bomba has been a disappointment, you know, faults, poor faults with his injuries. The Rockets who also just don't, they seem like kind of a, they have very little cohesion. They're kind of a mess. The Thunder, of course. I mean, yeah, it's just that in terms of getting some very important, not decent, very important core personnel and just maintaining, building and maintaining a hardworking team culture, the Pistons are just far ahead of those teams. And that are at the very least, have just done a much better job. So, I mean, I can't even imagine what it did for that, you know, if this is a factor for them for team culture, the Thunder. It's like, okay, well, guys, you're a little sore.

We're going to sit you for the rest of the season. and now we're just going to bring in as many guys as possible. No-name players who we hope can help us lose. And, oh, hey, Mr. Sar, you played too well. You're no longer on the team. Stuff like that. Who knows? Maybe it won't have any long-term impact going forward.

But I got to think it's a loss of sorts because. Yeah, no, I mean, like just going back to what Casey said about, you know, the winning down the stretch, excluding those last few games, I mean, they said that it really, really helped, you know, the locker room. I know that Kate even mentioned in his press conference how some of those losing streaks really, really adversely affected him and his confidence. And I don't know if he said his confidence, but just the way that things were doing. Nothing seems to.

Nothing seems to affect his confidence. But he said it was difficult on players. Right. 14 in a row, I think. Yeah. Yeah. He said that it was just a rough time. And then Casey said, like, you know, the film sessions, the mood in the locker room,

everything was improved when they, when they started to play better after the All-Star break. So ultimately, I think the progression through the season was really, really good for them. They started from such a low point. And when you compare that to where they ended up, you know, there was a lot of progress all around by these guys. So a lot of development within the organization. And that's exactly what we wanted to see this season. Yeah, definitely. And Dwayne Casey said that and this obviously seemed to be the case, even from the outside,

that everybody stayed committed, enthusiastic, despite their early struggle. You know, by early struggles, you really mean more than half of the season, which again, I think is the credit. It's the personnel that the front office is brought in. And also to Dwayne Casey himself, who we've criticized before and will again for his actual in-game coaching, but as a floor raiser and a culture builder. And just in terms of developing young players, just does have a good history. And in the past, I, you know, when he was the, when he was brought in to win with the Bistons, obviously wasn't too happy. And I look back at his history of developing players. And it's like, you know, this causation really, excuse me, this correlation really imply causation here.

And I would guess at this point that the answer is yes. He does actually seem to be genuinely good at it. But something else, just to finish this out, that we were said, is he really compared drafting to college recruitment. He said you try to bring in the right guys. And, you know, you built the right environment with the coaching and support staff to help them grow. So, I mean, you just, you really want to have. the right environment and then you bring them in and hope that you know and you're giving yourself

the best chance of good things happening so yeah i mean looking ahead to free agency uh of course what they do is going to depend on the draft weaver said that he feels like they have a good balance of veterans right now uh i'm quite confident that kelly olinick will be back who knows about jeremy grant corey joseph probably rodney mcgrudder wouldn't be too sad to see him back his 15th man and uh yeah it's going to be it's going to be it's going to be a big off season i think it's just going to be focused on the same style of developments that the team has approached the last two off-season's with, and then they see where the team goes. I think that everybody is ready to cheer for wins rather than losses. Though, not of the question that the Pistons are, let's say, 10th late in the

next season, and they're out of playing range, and then you start rooting for losses, but you haven't had a whole season of it. So, all right, before we move on, just a quick word from our sponsors. The NBA playoffs mean next level basketball. Get in on a first round action with Drafking Sportsbook and official sports betting partner of the NBA. This week, new customers can bet $5 on any team to win and get $150 in free bets instantly. You win no matter what. All Draft King Sportsbook customers can also bet on NBA hoops with same game parlayes. Can buy multiple bets from the same game for a bigger payout. The more legs you add, the more money you can win. Plus each day of the first round get a risk free bet up to $10 if your game same game parlay

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seven big boards. So yeah, anybody who's who listened last year in the year before and knows that Tommy and I are big draft junkies. He used to be more of a draft junkie than I am. I think I've caught up. Yeah, probably, man. I mean, we talk about it fairly often. We were kind of comparing notes on these guys all throughout the season,

through the college season. And, I mean, March Madness ended up sucking from a talent evaluation standpoint because all the key guys were out in, like, the first and second round. For the second, yeah, by the Sweet 16. Yeah, excuse me, by the elite eight, it was just Paolo and A.J. Griffin. And Mark Williams, if you count him. Right. But, I mean, the draft is fun, for us at least.

I mean, there's so many opportunities to bring in guys who can make your team better, especially right now. We don't know where the Pistons will be picking, but there are interesting names all up and down the top seven. We have some agreements and some disagreements, but we're going to go over our top seven here. And do you want to kick it off with your number one or you want me to go first? I know you're very, you're much more enthusiastic about your number one guy than I am about mine. Yeah, my first guy is Jabari Smith Jr. 610 wing, not wing. forward out of Auburn. And it really comes down to the three-point shooting for me. I'm not going to go too in-depth on this. We're going to get to those single prospect

episodes where we'll be able to do some deep dives. But my philosophy with this draft class is just team-building going forward is putting guys around Cade who can finish the plays he creates. And one of the things that this team desperately needs is more floor spacing, especially floor-spacing that is respectable. There are those pictures that you've seen on Twitter and social media, just of Cade getting mawed by all five guys on the opposing team because they, They respect him far more than they respect the guys who are sharing the floor with him. I think Javari Smith Jr. immediately addresses that need is another guy out there who is going to put pressure on the defense as a three-point shooter because we definitely need that. Yeah, I'd say it goes beyond just being a basic three-point shooter.

I mean, the guy is six foot 10 or who knows, these are NCAA heights. You know, he might be like six, eight and three quarters. It's possible. But definitely tall. So a jumbo shooter who's got a sweet stroke, a high release. and can shoot over guys, over smaller guys. He can shoot through close coverage. He can do some three-point shooting in isolation,

so not just a three-point shooter. And a guy who could, even if he doesn't develop beyond spot-ups and isolations and maybe a little bit of motion threes, could be one of the elite three-point shooters in the league. So definitely more spacing. And the primary concern about him right now is can he develop into more? You know, it can be a guy who creates some offense off the dribble because if he develops a pull-up game, then fantastic.

Can he take advantage of the close-up? coverage by driving past guys. He can't attack closeouts already. But even if he can't do that, I feel like just as a guy who can do that, who can be an elite perimeter shooter and who is with a 7 foot one wing span is a long, strong and switchable defender who can fit into any lineup and provide value in any system, I think just the floor there even is very enticing. And the ceiling, I would say, is as high as anyone's in the draft. Yep. I think he could easily become a second option if he really gets his shot together and becomes a more dynamic player. And the other thing I really like about Jabari is that I think he would be a great

culture fit. You know, he's definitely a guy who takes pride and defense, plays with a lot of energy. He's very animated out there. And I think that that's the sort of player that Weaver really likes, you know. And then there are these little indications that he is open to the idea of playing for the pistons. We've seen some stuff on social media that they really like Detroit. Excited, perhaps.

Yeah, yeah. They just really seem to like what Detroit is building. the idea of playing with Cade. So I think that it's a really natural fit there. So very potentially exciting. And I would be very happy to see Jabari Smith, Jr. on the Pistons. So where do you have them on your board? So for me, I would say maybe about one and a half.

So I'm really just constantly waffling back and forth between he and Chet Holmgren, Jabari definitely to save her pick. And Tess does have a very high ceiling. that there's just something about Chet that I think, that is very intriguing. And it's not only that he's a potentially game-changing defender. And he is. It's just what he could put together at his size on both ends of the floor is if he can put on weight.

Of course, this is a guy who, if he didn't have concerns, if he wasn't very thin right now. I mean, the guy's 195 pounds. It's 7 foot 1. He is very thin. Like Carson Edwards, who is pretty beefy for his. position is 5 foot 11 and 100 and 200 pounds. I mean, just to give you some contrast there. I mean, Chet is extremely thin and there are questions about his ability to gain weight.

And if those weren't there, I think he would absolutely be to runaway number one overall pick, you know, if you were 20 pounds heavier. So a guy who plays all around elite defense, just an excellent interior defender with excellent defensive IQ and an elite shot blocker. Watching him play brings to mind for me, Rudy Gober to a degree. like you'll see Rudy Gobert challenge guys who are driving toward the net and they just generally give up. It's not worth driving into Rudy Gober and trying to score at the basket. It's just a waste of a possession.

You know, at the very best you're doing it because the shot clock is just about run out. You have no other choice. So, yeah, you see Chet. I saw Chet in the NCAA as an interior defender, alter shots, block shots, prevent shots from being attempted. And he could just be an excellent. excellent defender at the NBA level, who could also stretch the floor. He was a promising shooter, an excellent finisher on the rim, about 84%. And also just a guy with a high motor and a great attitude who never backs down physically.

Yeah, yeah, he definitely plays with a little bit of an edge to him, which I'm sure Detroit fans will appreciate. But, yeah, the mobility with which he plays and the length, obviously, those physical tools, it's all functional. He makes the absolute most of it. He is able to get to spots to contest, go straight up, and he makes shots very, very difficult. He's a different type of center because you see it when he played in college. Like, guys are not used to playing against centers who are able to get to their positions that fast and contest that high. They just don't, they can't physically process it fast enough and they end up putting some wild shots up. So I definitely think that he's the sort of, like it's like you said, he's potentially game changing.

That's a great way of putting it. He's like a new breed of center who is just very mobile and can space the floor. So, yeah, Chet, if we end up with him, would not be mad at all. I think he's a great potential fit. Yeah, the question just comes back to the weight. I mean, the guy is very thin right now and has all the markings of an extreme ectomorph. I mean, he may just struggle to gain weight, period. It's not something that everybody can do.

I mean, with people on the extreme end of that scale genetically, you can try, but they just may not gain that weight. Who knows? It's hard to say. and if he can't gain that weight, it can be hard for him at center. Because the NBA guys would just really just bully him out of the way. And even though Chet can usually, like even if he's in the end of the way, even if he was pushed below the basket, he's got such good positioning in terms of his body and his arms that he could usually alter or block the shot anyway.

But like if you look at Isaiah Stewart's highway screens, Isaiah Stewart, excuse me, highway screens, for example, he just, he comes in and he just holds the center in place on the edge of the key. and you get an open way up. Basically, Kay took advantage of that a lot. Like a lot of guys would be able to do that to Chet. And then it's like, okay, you're a great rim protector, but you're too far away to contest.

So sorry. And I think we would see that constantly. And I don't think he's got, he doesn't have the mobility of Mobley. Mobley, who can play it. This is still thinking his best position. As Center, you can play him at Power Forward. He can still do great.

Chet doesn't have that much mobility. I think you lose a lot from playing him in any position, but center. Right. Yeah, the difference between those two guys is Mobley. He's a fantastic. fantastic switch defender on the perimeter. Absolute, absolutely devastating presence on the floor. Chet is a little bit more simple.

I think he's just going to be a really, really good drop defender. And once you get him to the rim, he's just going to alter shots there. But I do like Chet a lot. I've grown on him certainly as the season's gone on. I have him number two on my board. All right. So who is number three on your board? And this is a rhetorical question because I already know the answer.

It's a guy we've argued about quite a bit in the last few months. Yeah, it's Jaden Ivy. And really it comes down to the perceived season. dealing because I'll certainly agree with you. Like the fit is not natural. When I talk about what I see him potentially doing, it is kind of taking certain parts of his game that I think could improve and specifically developing them. Like obviously, Cade Cunningham is the point guard of this team.

He needs to be the primary ball handler. But Jaden Ivy in college was also a guy who played with the ball in his hands a lot. And the reason that was because his athleticism was so devastating and he was able to get to the rim was such force that you wanted him to have the ball in his hands a lot, even though technically he was a combo guard who played with another point guard. Jaden Ivy was definitely at his best or most effective with the ball in his hands. But the reason I have him so high is because in this draft, there's a lot of guys who just don't have the best in terms of ceiling.

And Jaden Ivy, he does not have that problem. He's probably going to enter the NBA as a top 20, top 15 athletes. athlete, and this team desperately lacks athleticism. Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, it definitely needs more of it. And Ivy definitely will be an elite athlete team at the NBA level. Fantastic burst, fantastic, top speed, excellent body control, excellent weeping. And, yeah, the issue I have with him is, like you said, fit.

So, K, it's a guy who's at his best by far when he's on the ball, and he's already very good on the ball, handling it on heavy volume, on a high pick and roll. And I think he's definitely going to get better, like, quite a good. bit better. So you don't want a guy who is going to lose a lot of value when he's off the ball. And that's my concern about Ivy, who is at his best attacking downhill, just attacking the rim, downhill, excuse me, with the ball in his hands. And he may be at his best as a lead guard on heavy possession at the NBA level. So, you know, there's the possibility he could develop a solid offball game to get good value next to Cade, you know, a guy who just comes around

screens and gets a pass off the run from Cade and finishes at the rim. You know, he had, he showed some promise is a deep three-point shooter, maybe a guy who can become a good motion shooter. You can definitely cut, though. Cuts aren't a big source of offense in the NBA level. Defenders and defense is very good at stopping us. So my question is, can you get enough offball utility from him as really a secondary handler? That makes him worthwhile fielding him next decade because there are questions on defense too and about his shooting, which is very inconsistent to end the season.

Right. He definitely started really strong, which was encouraging. He was one of the few sophomores on this list. And last year at Purdue, or his freshman year at Purdue, he ended up shooting 26%. This year, he ended up shooting a hair under 36%. He had some nights in the tournament where he shot decently well, and then I think he had like a 1 of 8 from 3 showing. So up and down, certainly.

And yeah, like you said, it is contingent on him developing this off-ball game, which is not the most natural fit to him. Defense also. Yeah. And when you talk about what you want him to become, it is contingent on him just focusing on certain parts of his game and functionally cutting out some very useful parts of his game. So, yeah, I agree that it's not the most natural fit. But when you consider the ceiling and the guys who can reasonably turn into star players, I think Ivy is one of the few guys in this draft who can get there. Yeah, but will he find it next to K is the question.

and will he develop the ability to make the right reads? Whatever we can get into this, we'll be doing a pretty deep preview on him. The defense is a question, too. It was not a good big and roll defender this season. And not the greatest ISO defender either. No, that was, whatever, not the greatest defender. We'll put it that way. If he can really fully buy into a primarily off ball role and he's excited about that,

then great. And hopefully you can put it together. But like, yeah, the shooting at the end of the season, 11 of 52 in his last like 13 games or something like that. It was really terrible. So even that isn't for sure. Where would you put him on your board? Oh man. This is where things get really kind of nebulous for me. I'm almost at this point thinking like who knows, who knows, maybe Shaden Sharp is the best guy at number three. But that'll really be contingent upon him. His performance in the combine if he comes in and blows the combine away and a,

It does great in interviews. You know, he might be number three because I think he's the guy who's the likely his best fit next to Kate. And fit with Kate is a big, fit with Kate is a big consideration now. We both agree on that. Yeah. Is he the next guy on your board? So, I mean, might be number four at that point, honestly. But that's, that's a mark for me of just how weak this draft is.

Who do you have your number three? Number three would be sharp, but that's hard to say. I mean, number three for me is trade down territory is the trouble. At that point, it's like, you know, maybe we can see what we can. can get elsewhere. But I mean, I think the thing is, if you're at number three, it's possible that Boncaro is already gone and then you have your choice between Chet and Javari. So Shaden Sharp is kind of occupying right now, a holding, just a holding spot at number three for me, which would put Ivy at number four. Okay. Yeah, but, but, you know, because Shaden's kind of just like a

placeholder. Here's what we know about Shaden. He's, he's quite athletic. And the trouble is this is all high school stuff. But they're good pull-up shooter, good three-point shooter, very athletic, drives a grassy way to the basket, just good all-around guy, the good wingspan, and just a good NBA body who can play strong defense. And if you think that's what he can provide, if he does well at the combine, he does well in interviews, that's a player worth taking a chance on in this year's draft. And I think if he does well at the combine, and if he does well in interviews, he'll go in the top five. But he's a placeholder there just because this draft is like, after the first two, I think for the Pistons, it becomes kind of like choosing between the best of guys who aren't the best fits.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we've been hesitant to try to go in on Sharp, but I really like his archetype. I'm really big into drafting certain archetypes, you know, guys, especially who are like floor spacers, athletic. And Shaden Sharp, you know, just from his description, like what you just said, he sounds like a phenomenal fit. The issue, of course, is just that it's all coming from high school. And the jump from high school, even like, you know. Huge. AAU play, whatever. It's an enormous leap.

We don't know how it's functionally going to stack up. So the combine, assuming that he goes and that he chooses to show off his skills, it's going to be huge for him and it's going to be huge for talent evaluation. I mean, if he plays poorly, maybe he falls if he plays really well. In this draft, honestly, he could go top three. I think ESPN has him ranked at like number six right now. And this is all just based on his high school film. and he didn't even get he didn't play a minute at kentucky no he didn't he came in the reason he

didn't play just for those listening well of course for those listening is that he actually enrolled in kentucky in january and so he was not with the team in the fall uh and um calipari right at kentucky yeah uh just thought it wasn't fair to just throw him in the fire so to speak now shaden has declared for the draft halfway a lot of players do this and you can go in as long as you don't hire an agent, you can withdraw by the NCAA draft withdrawal deadline, which is around a week after the combine ends. So he'll be there. So yeah, we'll find out more there. All right. Who's your number five? I have, well, I actually have sharp at number six. So my number four is Ben Matherin. And he's another guy, yeah, he's another guy that people are really starting to get high on. And this, and this is one

the things that midway through the season, there was like this debate of Ben Matherin versus Johnny Davis. I never saw it. Johnny Davis. That's a good one. I don't think either of us have him in our top seven, but I'm really happy that Matherin is really starting to pick up height because he is probably the most natural fit as a guard in this draft, assuming that, well, just kind of factoring in that we don't really know what Shaden is.

He is kind of like your prototypical 3-and-D shooting guard, and you look at his percentage as 36.9 from 3. athletic. He had some really big moments in the tournament, some clutch game winners, and big plays. You know, definitely not a guy who shies away from the moment. So as a natural fit and like a guy who's going to be going to be able to come around screens and put the ball up, I really like his potential fit with the pistons. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I just poo-poo Johnny Davis, absolutely. I don't think highly of what he's going to be in the NBA. Probably an inefficient shot creator who's not very athletic and competes hard on defense, but probably doesn't really do all that well.

Who knows? That or Devin Booker? Yeah, I don't think so. But maybe I'll end up looking like a fool. Who knows? Just at this point, I'm just, I'm laughing at me because I mean, it's a terrible idea for the Pistons. He might be a good NBA player.

I don't think so, but I think he's a terrible fit with the distance. So about Matherin, yeah, it could be a good fit. It definitely looks like a good positional fit. A guy who's very athletic, a very good offball mover, a guy who can shoot. motion threes. He's got a good degree of explosiveness. He can attack the basket and can do it well. Just an excellent motor and energy. Yeah, again, athleticism, fast, good leaping ability. Yeah, he's fairly simple. Like, he's just kind of like that offball guy who's not going to dictate too much usage from Cade and can finish some of those plays. Another guy who can potentially

space the floor, and we definitely need that. But he's pretty cut and dry. I mean, I think that if he strengthens his handle, I think he's a guy who could create off the dribble as well. you know, maybe in a pick and roll in which he did. If I remember correctly, pretty, he was fairly efficient in the NCAA. And he has listed at 6'7 under speculation that he's only about 6.5, 6.9 wingspan, whatever, and he'll be about 20 at the draft despite having come in, despite having played a sophomore season at Arizona. So something to look at his level of focus and effort on defense, obviously that's a big thing. And if the Pistons, if we've earned the rest of the front office have concerns about that,

I don't think he'll be coming to Detroit. But yeah, your question, you know, who knows, can be better than a role player is the question. And I think that he has that capacity. Percentage chance he's going to get there. Who knows? But, yeah, he would be number five for me as well. Okay, yeah. Yeah.

So there's a name that everybody is waiting for. I'm going to put him number six, and that's Paula Boncaro. I would rather, he'll never make it to number six. I mean, like, but if he's there, if the patients are picking number three and he's there, I would rather that they trade down or just not take him. I think very, there are two things here. Number one, really three things here. Number one is fit with Cade.

I have a very low opinion of Boncaro's level of golf ball utility in the NBA. This also ties him with number two, which is that he's not athletic and fielding him alongside Cade and Bay would mean three, it would mean poor athleticism on a lineup wide scale, and you really want to avoid that. But because Pollo is at the NBA level, a poor leaper is poor in terms of burst, poor in terms of quickness.

I mean, he can't be a role man. He's not going to be a lot of threat. He's going to have trouble attaining off ball separation. And that just means, like, when he's not on the ball, he can maybe shoot spot up threes. And that's not enough. That's a drastic loss of utility when he's playing next to it. It's going to be a very on-ball, Kade Cunningham.

So what's number three? Goodness, what was I thinking? Yeah, I guess the op-ball utility. But fit with Kade is poor. Athletes isn't fit as poor. Oh, yeah, number three. He attempts, his game is based on attempting a lot of difficult offense off the dribble from the perimeter. And who knows if that would translate.

But he's got to have the ball to do it. Yep. That's really what it boils down to for me. The fit is awful, in my opinion. Like, everything that he does is, for the most part, it's on ball. And he'd be fine on ball if he was more efficient. But do you really want to take the ball out of Cade's hands so much that Paulo becomes like a really good, useful pick? I'm not so sure about that.

And then like you said, like if he was a good vertical athlete, like if he could go up and catch lobs, I'd be pretty excited about the potential of adding him. I mean, he is a good passer. Be like John Collins type of player. Right. And with his passing, he could be like a good short roll guy. Like either he goes up and he finishes or he can kick it out. Like that would be a really good pick and roll duo.

But unfortunately, he's just not that athletic. You'll see in his highlight compilations, like he'll throw down some big dunks. but it's almost always with like a decent runway. You know, kind of like Isaiah Stewart, when he has that open driving lane, he will, he can throw it down pretty hard, but he doesn't have like that just on two feet, straight up and down athleticism, unfortunately. So really not a fan of his fit.

I'm not high on his shooting potential. And then he, even his weight, like people talk about how he's 250 pounds, 610. Like he's like this big beast of a player. He gets stopped short on drives a lot. And that ends up with him shooting a lot of these turnarounds. jumpers from mid-range hate that shot. So not big on Apollo to the Pistons.

His defense also. I mean, I think his defensive IQ is poor. Certainly his positioning is poor. He's definitely attackable in the pick and roll and on switches. And his effort seems to be very poor also. And it's like, yeah. So all around, I think not a good player for the Pistons. And I just want to bring this up again.

And like, it's said that talent is king. Talent is a big facet of it. But on-court value is king. Like what you can provide on the court is king. And if you're fit with the team's franchise player is terrible. And the value you're going to provide is not very good. Right. Just going back to that thing I said earlier when I was talking about Jabari Smith,

like my philosophy for adding talent to this team is, can you finish the plays that Kate is creating? I really don't think that Paul is going to do that all that well. We haven't done player comps for most of these guys, but I'm going to say that my comp is for Paulo. I think it's decent. It's pistons, Blake Griffin, but with worst shooting. Worst athleticism, too.

I mean, Blake was still a better athlete than Paulo at that point. Sure. Yeah, we can talk about this in the Paulo episode. I have them number seven on my board. I'm really not eye on him. Yeah, I don't like that comp. But, okay, so that was number six for me. Well, I guess we know who's number seven for you, but who would come next.

for you. I have Keegan Murray number five on my board, and it's not a pick that I'm super enthused about, but I mean, I think from a organizational fit perspective, I think he's decent. There are indications that the organization is really high on him. I'm probably a little bit influenced by that, and there are reasons. I mean, I trust Troy Weaver's eye for, you know, good personalities, and it's not the worst fit in the world. But I just don't think that his ceiling is all that high. What I think this team really needs now is like a second option. And I don't see Keegan Murray being that good. But, you know, he's decent.

He's a 6'8 forward, 611 wingspan, physical guy, likes to get in like the post, play, you know, physically down low. But he's also a capable three-point shooter. He ended up with 39.8% from distance. And that's good. But he's just not that dynamic, I guess. and his burst is kind of lacking. So he's not like that elite athlete who's going to mix it up and create advantages with athleticism.

I just feel like he's a role player, but a good role player. So that's kind of where I'm at on it with Keegan Murray. But I have him fifth on my board. I think he'll be a solid player in the NBA, but he's not super exciting to me. Yeah, I would say for me, I just, again, wind-up white athleticism is a thing. I mean, he is not a good half-court athlete. He relied a great deal on his strength. in the NCAA and that's not going to cut it in the NBA for obvious reasons.

He'll be strong, but, you know, he's not going to be able to get by and just bullying his way to the basket. And he did a lot of scoring in the post just on drop step hooks and whatnot. That's not going to, you're not going to get that in the NBA. So I also have concerns over as fit with Sadiq because they play similarly, both guys who really try to, try to bowl their way into the interior and just use their strength in the interior. Sadiq's gotten good at it.

You don't want two guys occupying that same rule. And then there's the question of ceiling. You know, could be kind of like a high-level role player maybe. But if you're looking for like the complete role player, his defense is a question mark to his ability to switch onto guards because his foot, you know, his lateral mobility isn't great. So he's a guy I don't find very exciting. He could be versatile, but he'd have to change his game quite a bit at the NBA level. You know, he was a great college player this season, a great college player.

But there are plenty of you guys who are great college players. who struggle at the NBA level. Right, that jump in the athleticism that's required. I mean, some players really, really struggle with that. Yeah, and who knows, you know, maybe he can... I mean, there's also the fact that he's going to be about 22 with the draft. That's not great. But, you know, who knows?

Maybe, like, if you were a better leaper, I'd feel better about him. In transition, I mean, he's a fine athlete. But we're talking half court here. And half court's where you're playing the vast majority of your opportunities. So, I might have him number seven. Maybe. All right. So we'll end up with a couple of listeners submitted questions.

First one, if the Pistons draft Jabari Smith, does it make it more pertinent to trade Grant to help Jabari develop better or should Grant get traded regardless of who gets drafted? I think the organization has shown that they're kind of willing to move on from Grant anyway. But if the Pistons end up with Jabari Smith, I definitely think that they are more likely to trade him. There is a bit of overlap there because Sadiq Bay is definitely a core piece. and I think he's best as a three or a four, and Jabari Smith Jr. should be a core piece and a future piece, and he's also at his best as a three or a four.

So I think that Jeremy becomes the odd man out there. So to answer your question, yeah, I definitely think it does become more important to free up those minutes. Give Jabari Smith all the opportunity, all the run to improve in the league, because I think this is a point that you've made on here plenty of times, Mike. The best way for these guys to develop is for them to get minutes. get that opportunity to be out on the floor and feel it out. So definitely I would want to trade Grant all the more if we end up with Jabari Smith.

Yeah, I agree. He's, I would say that he's ready to start at this point, regardless, you want to get him the most minutes you can get. So ideally get him in the starting lineup. So, yeah, in that case, I mean, the factor is can you get what you want for Grant? But if you don't trade him at some point, I think by August, because if you, if you, if you, you extend Grant, then you're going to run into the six-month trade moratorium because he'll get an extension that's in excess of what's called the threshold of an extended trade. So, yeah, it would be a six-month moratorium on trading him.

And after a certain point in August, he would not even be able to be traded by the trade deadline. So it could be a weird situation there. I don't think the persons want to sell low on him. But, you know, so you could conceivably see a situation in which Jabari Smith comes off the bench. I don't think that would be the worst thing in the world. So I would say if he's drafted in the Pistons have a good offer or maybe a little bit less than they would like, then yeah, I would go with that.

But otherwise, not the worst thing in the world to carry Grant in the next season. For the record, I don't think that my idea of playing him as a jumbo shooting guard is really very valuable because I don't think it'd really be a great idea to ask him to defend shooting guards. I think it would be interesting. It would be interesting. If you can make that work, then congratulations. You have an absolute and utter matchup nightmare

Aaron probably a lineup full of guys who are six-six and taller and very long. Yep. So the second-sized lineup of the NBA. Yeah. So, well, yeah, I think we both agree that Stewart's not the guy going forward, but we've talked about that. I think we talked about that a lot. We can talk about it more in the future. Now, the second part of the question, should Grant get traded regardless if he gets drafted? No. So if the Pistons draft somebody who plays at shooting guard, for example, there's no urgent need to get rid of Grant at that point. And who knows, maybe you carry him moving forward. The only question about him is his age because he's going to be 29 when he signs

his next. If he signed, when his contract ends, he'll be 29. And if the Pistons are competing in two years, he's at the beginning of the point at which a lot of players start to decline. So do you want a younger guy and done a better timeline to replace him, perhaps? But I don't think it's the worst thing in the world if he stays. He just maybe will have to be fine playing as, like if you get Ivy and he pans out, you kind of, or maybe even if Chet, you might have Jeremy needing to be fine with being like the number 3B option. Okay. So, and do you disagree with that?

Yeah, definitely. On this show, I've said that Grant could still fit the timeline, so I do agree with you. You don't necessarily have to trade him. But regarding this question, yeah, if you look at you, if you're looking at a logjam of forwards, especially guys who could all reasonably be starters and contribute, yeah, I think Grant is the odd man out. But it is somewhat dependent on who you draft. Okay, dokey. And our other question, if you had to define what measured, if any, a level of success found from within this less than desirable season, what would that be for you?

I would say that definitely saw quite a bit of growth from Sadiq. You saw quite a bit of growth from Kate over the course of the season. Killian Hayes showed some flashes, some signs of life. Jeremy Grant, after the All-Star break, Weaver had said that he spoke with Jeremy during his injury and us. him to play a more efficient game. Grant came out and did that. So that was progress. What Weaver said, I can't measure this about the players learning what they have to do to win.

I mean, I guess that would be progress. And also the fact that the Pistons ended with the third best odds. Well, they have the same odds as the top two at a top four pick. So those would be the things. Yeah. For me, I would just take a step back and I would even just say that as the season wore on. These guys developed chemistry and learned to play together. A great example of Sadiq, he started off the season as like a guy who was really struggling to pass. And I'm not sure

if it was just because it was the NBA and it's a level up on competition because in his days at Villanova, like that team moves the ball fairly well. If you're a Villanova guy, like you come into the league NBA ready. But part of that is just that they know how to play as a team. So as the season we're on, like I definitely think that a lot of the improvements that were made can be credited to just the fact that the team played better together. So that's a big success in my mind. You know, as the team kind of solidifies its core in a few years, at some point the next big step is just going to be them developing chemistry,

learning to play together, learning to anticipate each other's moves. There was a snippet that Casey had mentioned that Cade knows where guys are supposed to be, and I think that that's going to come with reps. So that's another big success for the season. Fair enough. All right. Any closing thoughts and social media? Yeah. Once again, if you made it this far, thank you so much for listening. We're on Twitter at To The BasketPod, T-O-The BasketPod. If you're on Apple, please consider leaving a review. If you're on Spotify, give us a rating. And yeah, once again, thank you guys so much for listening.

All right, folks. So we will catch you in the next episode.