Driving to the Basket: A Detroit Pistons Podcast - Episode 99: 2022 NBA Draft Prospects - An In-Depth Look at Bennedict Mathurin

Episode Date: May 25, 2022

This episode takes a deep dive into consensus lottery pick Bennedict Mathurin, who has been reported to be of interest to the Pistons. Thanks to Mathurin superfan Price for guesting on the show!

Welcome back, everybody to driving to the basket, part of the basketball podcast network. I am Mike joined today by Benedict Matherin superfan Price, otherwise known as just guessing, on the Detroit Pistons Discord. Price, thanks for joining me today. Happy to be here. Excellent. So, as noted, we'd be talking about Benedict Matherin today, a Pact 12 player of the year. I don't know.

I've yet to come up with a nickname for him, French-Canadian phenom, maybe. Sounds good. Whatever the case, though. Before we get started, Price, we're about a week away. or a week past the NBA draft lottery, which we know didn't end too well for the Pistons. What have been your chief takeaways from the news in that time? Basically, we've got the combine results in for a lot of the players, not for the big guys, which is pretty much usually the case.

Like we don't know Chet Holmgren's weight, et cetera. But we got some measurables in. Some guys really popped. Some guys really didn't. One guy is Dyson Daniels. This isn't really quite relevant to our conversation, but he is probably shooting up the draft boards right now because he came in bigger, faster, and with just better results across the board than was projected. And don't be surprised to hear his name called early based off of kind of everything we're hearing. And other name's Jeremy Sohan, who I think is going to go in the lottery, pretty high on him. him myself so right and then you have like uh it's going to be Patrick uh not Patrick Baldwin Patrick Baldwin oh he was terrible yeah he had an absolutely awful showing and that's that's I think going to push him maybe out of the first round with how with how terrible it is yeah I mean I think

that uh you we're kind of getting a little more separation I think with the different tiers of players finally with like with who's measuring well who's interviewing well and so overall i feel like this has been a pretty strong positive development for people who followed this draft class and there hasn't been any separation in pretty much anybody since basically the cycle started except for like the few guys at the top who've kind of wired to wired this yeah yeah definitely combine results were interesting. I always find it a little bit frustrating every year that we don't hear too much about the top prospects because, of course, they have no incentive at all to fully participate. I read an article, I got San Bistini and John Hollinger from The Athletic, and I know those some of you who are long-time

listeners and know me know that I'm not the biggest fan of John Hollinger, but he had some good points in this. I said that, you know, maybe in the future in the next CBA, you have some sort of requirements. I remember exactly what it was, but in order to participate, in the combine that you have to submit yourself to at least certain tests, like medical evaluations and whatnot, because right now these guys can get away with not giving you anything. Also, I just, you know, if you could find some way to just get more info for the fans, you know, for the teams, for the players.

But, yeah, so you had some risers, you got some fallers, and then you had Shaden Sharp, who I know is a hot topic issue amongst Pistons fandom or rightly so. And the combine really soured him for me, it soured me on him, rather, because he, you know, he went with this sort of international man of mystery act. Like, I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure you, like, do you have any opinions on that? Like, the way that Shaden Sharp imported himself? Oh, it's awful.

I, in my unprofessional opinion, Shaden Sharp, I think, has handled himself terribly in terms of how he's related to at least the media and the public, because we just don't know, like, where he's at at all in his development in his game. And that's kind of been the big question with him. And I feel like someone got it in his ear. This is my conspiracy theory. I don't have any sources on this. But someone in his team got in his ear to say, be mysterious as much as you want. Someone's going to draft you?

You'll be drafted top seven. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely a possibility. I figured it because we knew so little about him. And he had to, of course, he knew that. That teams knew so little about him. And of course, I think it's a slam dunk to say that he under this draft because it's weak and because he knew that he would be drafted in the lottery and possibly in the top

10, you know, regardless of anything. And next year, he might have played himself out of the lottery or he might. It's just a stronger draft in general next season, too, especially in the top tiers, as it looks right now. So I figured that we'd see more of him. You know, he'd participate fully at the combine, maybe even play in the five-on-fives, though that's generally players in the lower end of the first round

and the second round, and then, you know, not necessarily even in the draft picture at all. But instead, he did basically nothing. I mean, he had, his agent held a pro day, and that's it. And in that same article that I referenced by San Bessini and John Hollinger, they said something interesting, which is that agents and, excuse me, team executives just find pro days really irritating

because they're a waste of very valuable time at the combine, and they show you hardly anything. It's just a bunch of one-on-zeros. So you don't really get to see what a player can do at all. They go because they want to maybe get a little bit of extra information and not to offend the agent of the player. So I know that, like, who's a Jonathan Gibney, I think from Draft Express, brought up that,

O Kegan Murray, you know, most top five players don't even go and work hard with their pro days. And something to know. Givini, who's, you know, good dude, who's been in the draft business for a long time. He really hipes guys up on his little Twitter pieces. You know, for obvious reasons, get people interested. That's what his content's about.

So Keegan Murray doing some work at his pro day was not really a sign of anything. Guys don't work hard at the pro days, you know, for what it's worth. But yeah, so we heard nothing. We learned nothing about Sharp. And that sours me on him a bit. I think it was deliberate. And also, we just know nothing. And I would imagine that team executives haven't worn too much either.

So this could make him fall. And I feel for me, it is, is dead. definitely made him fall on my board. Would you say the same for yours? Oh, absolutely. It's, uh, in terms of his fit with the pistons, in terms of the character, uh, that he has presented, I would, I'm thinking much less of him in terms of how he'd fit with our culture. Just because it seems like he's playing it up like he's above it all. And it's like, dude, no, you're not. Yeah, I hear you. Like, look, I figured that he would come in and you would see kind of like Scotty Barnes last year.

Now, Barnes came in, and this is highly unprecedented, but it kind of showed you the sort of player he is, the sort of person he is, rather. He came in and as a basically consensus top five pick, if I remember correctly, he not only came to the combine and, I mean, he submitted himself to everything. He did all the drales. He did all the measurements. And, you know, he just wanted to go out there and work hard and show what he had. And I figured that Shaden Sharp would go out there and do that. You know, I'm an unknown.

and I want to come out here and show everybody what I can do. And instead he did the opposite, which not only kind of made me feel a lot more uncertain about him, but I agree, seems a little bit sleazy. And again, this could be like someone in his camp is telling him this is how you should do this in order to maximize your position in terms of where you get drafted. Like that's the calculation I think is being made. And I think it's a wrong one. And I think it's also revealing.

that if there isn't issues with his maturity level himself, then there might be issues in the camp, and I don't know which is actually worse. Yeah, I would rather have, I'd rather have him be more mature and the people whispering in his ears be less so because, you know, at least they can, I don't know, be separated from him, I guess,

by whichever team he ends up on. But, yeah, it was, yeah, there was, it was just disappointing for me. And I don't, I feel a lot of less. I mean, maybe a fifth of person's really get in, and get to see a lot of what he can do and a private workout. They might feel better about him, but I got to think that probably hurt his chances of being drafted to the Pistons.

So, all right. Yeah. So let's move on to star the show, so to speak. That's Benedict Matheron. So he is, we got his combine measurements. Unfortunately, didn't participate in strength and agility, which is a shuttle run, lane agility, maximum vertical, standing vertical.

And I think it's a shame for him because I think he would have been in the top tiers and all of them at his position. But six, four and a half without shoes. So he'll be listed to six five in the NBA, six foot nine and a half wingspan, or wait, six foot nine, six nine and a half. I don't remember, whatever. Long wingspan. He'll be about 20 at the draft itself. Played two seasons at Arizona. And yeah, let's talk about what he's going to bring, what he's going to bring into the NBA. So I know he's fairly high on your board, correct? Correct. I am probably the highest on Mathrin of anyone that I've seen in terms of like just the draft Twitter, the draft YouTube, like sub-community on Discord, Reddit, what have you. I'm probably the highest person you'll find on Benedict Mathrin. Yeah. So why Mathuron for you? Where would you pick him first?

I think if you were in a vacuum, where would you believe Matherin should be picked? Gun to my head, I'd select him over Jaden Ivy. Okay. So you'd be taking it number four. You don't think that he should be drafted above Boncaro, Holmgren, Jabari Smith, like the big three, so to speak? Probably not, but I like him more than Boncaro. Like a lot more, but I'd probably select Boncaro third just because he is a

rare combination of size and skill. And that's, that's something that most teams are going to want in theory. But I'm, I'm much higher on Mathrin than than Ivy. And that's, I think, probably the big like diverge I have on that front. Fair enough. All right. So why Mathron? What do you like most about him. I like the idea of a really athletic, two, three-ish kind of wing. And that means like two, three, like shooting guard or small forward kind of sized player. He's very athletic. I don't think he loses much from Ivy in terms of his burst in terms of his verticality. I think it's right up there with Ivy. He's absolutely a terror on like back cuts. And like from two feet, like standing still, he can just elevate like to a ridiculous degree. And that's, I think,

important because his other real selling point for me is his shooting. I think is an absolute asset. He's one of probably the three, four best, like, pure shooters in terms of if we just isolate the shooting skill in the draft up there with like jabari and yeah yeah i mean he's he was shooting at about 38% on six shots a game from beyond the arc and these were usually off movement so it's not like he's he's getting a lot of shots off the catch and then he's like wide open or something these are like contested off movement shots and he can elevate like kind of mid stride almost in in like a like off a screen action and can just really get up there and he's he's long for his size and he the form is really solid

and it's very pretty. And I think that there is real potential for him to be a volume movement shooter in the NBA. And that is highly, highly valuable. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, you mentioned his athleticism, which is definitely a big deal, especially for the pistons. But absolutely, I stick with a shot. Completely agree with you. Mechanics are really good, really pretty stroke.

High elevation, particularly when he's shooting off the move. He's got a compact release and also a slight fade, which makes contest more difficult and gives him more space. So definitely great to have that just even before his entry into the NBA. He's just a pretty pure shooter who is not only quick, you know, quick enough to get himself open, but is, yeah, it's just just as excellent mechanics. Not sure I'd say he's on Jabari level. Like Jabari, I think, is an unusually, like pure shooter, so to speak. but Matherin's up there from the perimeter, definitely. I feel like he can get set really quickly when he's catching off the move.

He sets into pull-ups quickly. He can make some difficult motion shots. It can easily reset on side steps. He's a guy who also sees the situation well. He knows enough of what's going on around him that'll pump fake to get open or just outweighed defenders to take the right shot. So, yeah, those guys who are fast enough to get open and can shoot well on motion threes, I mean, that's definitely super valuable. Yeah, I agree with that.

And I would like to clarify, I don't consider him a better shooter than Jabari in terms of just their shooting skill. Because I'm super high on Jabari. I think that, like, his floor is the highest in the draft. And that's without question because of his size, athleticism defense. And, of course, his ability to elevate on his shot is just going to. to be almost unstoppable even at the NBA level because it's very consistent, very repeatable mechanics, and the shot release is so high already on a 610 frame. Yeah.

So it's like, I wouldn't put Mathrin in that rarefied air, but I would consider him a very strong candidate for, in that next tier of like A.J. Griffin, Benedict Mathrin, and then, I don't know who else. Yeah, I'd have to look through the list. Definitely, we're probably looking at, I mean, you've got Keegan Murray, who's a good shooter as well, but nowhere near as good in terms of getting open or hitting those motion shots. So, yeah, definitely up there as a shooter, and that's a valuable commodity in general, valuable for the pistons.

We'll talk about his fit with the pistons a little bit later. But when it's, you mentioned his athleticism, also a big deal. I would rate Matherin as kind of like an eight and a half out of ten NBA athletes, which is pretty darn good. I'm not sure I agree that he's quite as athletic as Ivy. I think Ivy's burst is better. Ivy's just his verticality off of one foot is better. But Matherin's really up there, and his athleticism doesn't make up as much of his game as it does of Ivy's. Like, if you took away Ivy's athleticism or just made him an average NBA athlete, he'd be a pretty bad player.

think if you did the same for Mathrin, he'd be not as good, but he'd still, you know, he'd still find ways to have a solid NBA value. But like, just really, he's explosive. He's, he's quick both on and off the ball, long strides, just choose up space and transition, agile. And I think he's a pretty good lateral mover. You mentioned his leaping. Yeah, great leaper off of two feet. Like, can vertically space the floor at 6'5. Good body control. Yeah. So, uh, And he harnesses that to be just an excellent aggressive mover off the ball. So you couple that together with his ability to shoot. And also, I feel like his athleticism gives him an interesting ceiling as well,

just in terms of, you know, if you can get it together as a creator. Absolutely. Absolutely. Matherin, if the creation can be brought along, I think you're looking at a very interesting potential second or third option on a contender. Yeah. Yeah, that athleticism definitely, I mean, you don't have to have good athleticism to be, you know, to be a good player. It's just definitely a very, very, very, very, very nice thing to have. And, you know, he's a great athlete to really, yeah, it's, and we can talk again later about the fit, about the fit with the pistons, but that's something the pistons also desperately need.

So, yeah, let's talk about how he, just how he parlayes this into success or how he parlayed into success in his NBA, excuse me, NCAA sophomore. season. So we talked about, yeah, loves to, you know, we're talking about him as a shooter, loves to run the fore in transition. What really stuck out to you, just in general, about how he comported himself in the half-court offense and how he was effective there? I think the biggest thing for me and why I've risen on him so high is the year-to-year month-to-month progression that I saw this season with his passing and his feel in the pick and roll. I wouldn't consider him a positive value player in the NBA context on either front yet but with how much he has progressed and given that he gets plenty of run in the NBA with his high floor as a potential offball

three point threat already that when you combine with I thought I saw pretty serious strides in the passing department off screen actions again. I think that there is that kind of next level that we could see him hit if he's given the right situation to develop in. Yeah. He was asked, I think, to do a little bit too much at Arizona or maybe he just wanted to do more than maybe he was really ready for. But they completely agree in terms of his improvement as a passer across the course of his

sophomore season. Like by the end of it, I think that that game against TCU was really just the apotheosis of his progress in which he was really just actually actually. just active in every capacity, like off the ball, on the ball, passing, rebounding, everything. But yeah, as a passer, I don't think he's ever going to be, I don't think he has really that high passing IQ that he's going to need to be a really good passer. He's more of just kind of, you know, what he sees, so to speak. Like, he's not really a super cerebral thinker, but he now can make those sort of split-second

decisive reads to find lobs, to find just open men in general when he's on the perimeter at open men, you know, whether they be on the, whether they're on the perimeter or they're cutting. And also when he's, when he goes off the drive, like, he's very decisive about these passes and their bullet passes and they generally are going to find, they're going to find guys in the shooting pocket. So I definitely agree that that's, that significantly elevates his ceiling. If he can translate that, that to the NBA and if he can continue improving upon that. So, yeah, what else did you see really in a half court that you particularly liked? One thing I'd like to bring up first that you mentioned is that his role in Arizona is

definitely, I think, just too heavy for us to really get an accurate picture fully of his projection into the NBA. He was the highest usage player and also, I believe, the minutes leader on a per game basis. I think he was the only player who was north of 32 minutes or north of 30 minutes even on the Arizona Wildcats. And yeah, and the biggest thing that we haven't addressed yet is his rebounding and in the half court as a guy who can get those second possessions and extend plays. I think that that's something that's in his game. It's not necessarily a focal point, but it is for a six five player, roughly. he's a guy who can really track down like long rebounds and help reset the the offense and give his team another look on occasion.

And that's kind of like a nice little facet to throw in that he's this very engaged player at times. And if that can be more of a focus in a more secondary role, rather than having to carry the load as the best. player on his team, then I think you're looking at a guy who could do a lot more on the margins than what we've seen. Yeah, that's definitely a good point. He was asked to do a great deal with Arizona. And I checked, yeah, you're right. He was the only guy who averaged over 30 minutes. Number two on the team was a guy in a much, much, much lesser role. I'm not Kirk, Carissa. I don't really know too much about him. Dayland Terry was number three. He might be a third round draft pick. These are guys who averaged way less in the way of shots and just did way less

I mean that the, really the next most involved player was Christian Coloco at 25 minutes, and he wasn't really asked to do a ton. So, yeah, Mathroom was really asked to take on a primary handling role in a way that I don't know if he was ready for, and I don't think will be necessarily great for him in the NBA. So there are some wrinkles there that I think will be smoothed out by having a more defined role in which he has more help. But, yeah, when it comes to rebounding, I was impressed because he really likes to get into the trenches, so to speak, and crash the glass in a way that's,

just much more assertive and aggressive than you typically see from his position. The guy would occasionally just come out of nowhere, like in the interior, like amongst the trees, so to speak, to grab a board and put in a putback. Also, definitely, like you said, will grab long rebounds as well, will pursue his shot. And it just seems to have just a sort of joy in that aspect of the game. And you just would not really see it when defenders wouldn't really see it coming necessarily. It reminds me a little bit of Cam Johnson,

who is similarly very good at. it's sweeping in from the weakside corner to pick up an offensive rebound. It's a useful skill without a doubt. And like you said, we might see additional stuff like that on the margins of his game in the NBA if he doesn't really have quite so high a load. So, yeah, I think that, I mean, some other things he can do right now, can attack close-outs. He can't do some attacking at the rim. He's just not great at finishing through contact.

And he can shoot through close coverage. super useful. Guys have to play him close to three-point line for that reason. And also gets the free throw line because he is aggressive. Now, what do you think about his defense? It's a bit hit and miss. There's, I think, good potential. Yeah, I agree. With the athleticism, with the ranginess that he can play at times, that he can get skinny around screens. What do you think about his defensive ceiling, though, you know, for this, you know, for this as long as we're still talking about the pluses. I think the ceiling on his defense is pretty high, not as like a guy who's going to be a primary like iso perimeter guy, but in a good defense, I don't think he's the weakest link.

Yeah, I feel like, so I think he's athletic enough and long enough to stay, you know, to stay in front of most players. I think that, you know, could provide something as a weak side shot blocker. And like you said, good at getting skinning around screens, good at making rotations, like, when he sees them properly. So I agree, probably not likely to be an elite stopper, but I think he could definitely be a plus defender. Yeah. But, yeah, like you said, there are some concerns.

Get to those in just a short time. Something that I know we're both big fans of is his mentality, like, just in terms of he's just a super fiery competitor. Yeah. Matherin has an unimpeachable on-court. Absolutely. Matherin has an unimpeachable on-court presence in terms of how he can play with just a lot of passion. Like those rebounds that he can just track down, as you said, amongst the trees and, like, grab them and then make the right pass to set up a teammate.

or he can come in and sky over pretty much whoever he wanted at the NCAA level is something that, like, makes him really fun to watch. And he always kind of brought it. It wasn't always the most consistent thing on either end, but the, you can tell that he played at a extremely high level. And it is a very well accomplished, like in terms of his character that he had. had on both ends and the passion he played with. It's very strong. Yeah, he's just definitely competitor. And yeah, we'll talk about his defensive focus in a bit, but which can be, I don't know if I agree with people that he took possessions off, but it definitely could have been better. But yeah, if you watch him out there, I mean, the guy is just passionate, just just super

passionate, really emotional, like not emotional, fortunately, like arguing with the refs. but you can tell that he's just got really got a fire within him and an edge. And this is the sort of mentality that can serve as maybe the emotional heartbeat of a team. Like you've got on the Pistons, Isaiah Stewart is a super hard worker. You've got, really get a lot of really hard workers in the Pistons, but just somebody who plays with that emotional edge. I mean, it's, it's fun. It's definitely fun to watch.

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off plays so much as that he gets kind of just caught staring at the wrong guy or not having good situational awareness for where the next pass is going to go and he can make good rotations but I did think that he oftentimes relied on his athleticism to kind of make up for like a poor first guess in terms of his kind of attacking mentality on defense. I thought he could get overaggressive and rely too much on his just length and speed to make up for that because he can really get up there and get his hand on shots. But the issue is that I felt like he was out of position on a lot of those like shot block attempts

that he would get and that's it's kind of this work in progress that is kind of a theme of this player is that there's a lot of pieces that need to come together still

but that what's there already is still like a functional NBA player. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Again, defense, my impression of him was that it wasn't an issue of IQ. Like if we're talking, like, I think some players just don't have the defensive IQ. Like, if we're talking about defensive IQ, defensive acumen, it's just the ability

to make the right breeds and the right decisions on a split second basis. And in the NBA, the time you have to make those decisions is very small. Like Marvin Bagley, I think there's only, I don't see a future in which he's really a plus defender. Maybe he becomes like an acceptable defender, but his defensive acumen is just so poor. Now, with Matheron, I feel like a lot of, lot of the mistakes, you know, like biting on pump fakes, being overly aggressive and just getting blown past, things like that. I feel like these are not issues of IQ. I think there are more things

that could be ironed out at the NBA web. I don't think he has elite defensive IQ, but I think that a lot of the mistakes that he made on defense could be practiced out of them, so to speak. Do you think that's the case? Yeah, I would agree so that just reduce his role. And maybe the energy levels will just kind of even out. And it might allow him to focus kind of more on those like little details. And if he ends up on a team with like Dwayne Casey as the coach, then those defensive issues will be addressed like first thing in order for him to stay on the court in any meaningful way for the course of the season.

So I think that there's potential for vast improvement on that end. Yeah, I agree, definitely. And yeah, even he made a good point, like even just reducing the role so that he can focus more on the defense. And who knows, some players just have the energy to do this on both ends. But I think just it's like we both said, a lot was asked of him on offense that maybe it was a little bit too much. And, yeah, you pair that down. It might just bring a lot for better focus. and on both ends.

But on defense, yeah, I mean, he'll be coming into a good situation, definitely. And I think we could see dramatic improvement from him across the course of his first season. Another weakness, shot selection. Like, just sometimes tries to do too much and forces shots in the interior in particular, you know, particularly off the drive, but also some pull-up threes that are too difficult. So did you see that as well from him in the NCAA? Yeah, I think that. a lot of my issues stem from the fact that he didn't really get himself into great positions

in the mid-range a lot and it's like if they if the defense is successful at walling him off from getting to the rim then he would oftentimes I think just settle for like a so-so floater or a just a really contested too. And I think that if we get the positive improvement trajectory continuing with his passing, then that will, I think, open up easier looks for him in the mid-range because that's my biggest concern, honestly, is how much can he improve in between his in between his, in between his three-point shot and his ability to crash the rim. Yeah, like just to bring up some stats. Yeah, on pull-up twos shot 31%, on 32 attempts, on runners, shot 25%. You mentioned runners,

floaters. You mentioned that, you know, 25% on 44 attempts. Like, if he finds himself in a top position in the interior, yeah, sometimes I'll just take a bad shot. That floater, you know, that's, there's an awful percentage of you even for the NCAA. The floater for almost everybody is not an efficient shot in the NBA. Like the efficiency standards in the NBA are very high. So, yeah, sometimes he would just take bad shots. And like I said, some of his threes, some of his pull-up threes. I mean, if he can make, I'm great, but some of them, he really should not have been

attempting. 34% pull-up shooter from three, which is good, but could have been higher if he hadn't taken some dumb threes, a fair number of them. So, yeah, shot selection is definitely there. And I feel better about it. Now that we saw him develop more as a passer, like I think increasingly, across the course the season saw him pass rather than take those bad shots. So another one, in my opinion, really needs to work on finishing through contact.

Yeah, totally. The ability for him, he's kind of like very solidly built. Yeah, 205. 205 and it's like a very solid 205. Like there's, you can tell that like he, he's very like kind of stoutly built for a guy at his size. And for his like kind of just long, like limned thing, I've always been impressed by his, his just physical look on the NBA or not sorry, the NCAA court. However, yeah, like he can blow by people.

And I think that's his preference right now. But if he's going to be at all like a secondary or tertiary option on a very good team, he's going to need to challenge the big boys. in the big, big show, you know? Like, that's really his, his bread and butter there is going to be able to challenge guys. Because I've seen him put big guys on a poster. Like, if you watch that TCU game, it was, like, absolutely phenomenal performance in the second round in this past tournament.

And he just threw down, I think, like two or three times. And that shows that it's there, but there. There's still, I didn't see it a lot leading up to that performance. I kind of was struck mostly by the fact that he could actually challenge a significantly bigger player than him and win. Yeah. Like, I feel like off the drive, like, he's got a decent handle in some circumstances across the drive, you know, on the drive.

His handle is another weakness. But if he's driving, he tends to drive around. and then, I mean, sometimes basically he'll get up into the air, he'll face contact, and then it seems like he doesn't entirely know what to do in the moment. And so often we see just a bad shot go off. Sometimes he'll draw foul. He sees very good draw and follows, but, or pretty good at the NCAA level. He definitely got to the line.

But, yeah, like you said, if he's going to be that good creator at the NBA level, and he was a strong score at the rim, around 64% in the NCAA. I don't know what the numbers are for self-created attempts, but he's got to be able to take contact and finish through it. He's got the body control that kind of contort his frame and get himself into a better position in the air. I think that's something that could be worked on. I don't think it's a matter of just doesn't have it in him.

But just moving out of the handle, that's a question. You've got to ask if this is a guy who can really go straight up the middle with the ball in his hands. Not that he's super turnover prone, but it can be a little bit shaky. We'll put it that way. You got to wonder if he's going to grow into having a strong enough handle that he can really create consistently from the perimeter.

What do you think about that? Yeah, and I think he's one of those players that's super like one hand dominant. It seems like pretty much he was only confident, like going left. Oh, really? I saw him go right a lot. I felt like right was his more dominant side. I saw a lot of of like him going left on at least like some of the bigger like kind of back cuts that he would do. Yeah, like anywho, I think that the settling for shots is definitely an indication for the fact that his handle is just so raw.

and there isn't a lot of confidence in it in his ability to get guys to kind of commit to one side or the other before he can go. It's like I think he uses, it's not that he has a bad handle, it's just that it's not refined enough to the level where he can really get players off balance in small spaces. Yeah, I agree.

that occasionally we'd see him flash out a really pretty move like a behind the back, you know, our nice crossover, but I agree that raw is the way of putting it. I don't feel like it's the same thing that we see when we look at Javari Smith where it's like, dude, your handle just sucks. But it's, I think it's a matter of rawness. Yeah, and to bring it back to it, like we've said several times now, he was asked to do a lot at Arizona, and that was a lot of handling as well. So, again, I just keep coming back to this, and I hope it's not.

not wishful thinking. I think that's something that could be improved upon as well. Another thing that comes into it both on and off the handle is the guy can sometimes get a little bit out of control and just crash into people. It drew a fair amount of offensive follows as a result. It could just be the intensity with which he plays, but that's another minor, just another another minor downside. Now, one of you, you've mentioned a couple times now, but I want to go further into is his lack of an in-between game, like at all. I'd say the guy's got really nothing in that capacity. You don't have to. You don't have to. You've mentioned. do, but it's real nice to have.

Yeah. The lack of a threat from midrange is something that I think could really put him over the hump with a lot of these other concerns we've laid out that if the midrange can at least get to the point where it's a threat. And we know that he has the athletic like burst and bounce. Like he's like tremendous at getting. vertical in like mid stride and that's something that just leaps out on watching the tape if you will is he can elevate on a on a dime basically but the issue is that it's not always in the the

the with enough time and space for him to get anything more than the contested long too and if you're a Pistons fan, I'm sure everyone has seen more than enough of that the past two years with Jeremy Grant. Yeah. And that's, I think, the option for him to kind of solve the issues that we have as, like, a creator that if he can just drive in and get to his spot and get up and put up a relatively efficient two-point shot when you combine with his athleticism, his ability as a burgeoning pick and roll, like, passer, and the three-point shot being so,

I think, just repeatable for how fluid the mechanics just look, then that I think will allow him to exist very comfortably next to a really good, player. Yeah, I would say about his mid as is his in-between game. I mean, of course, we know a few guys actually managed to put together a good pull-up game from mid-range. I mean, that's, yeah, there's not many guys who can do that. I mean, if he can at least be a threat to do it when he's left wide open, you know, great. Even then, most guys aren't super good at it, like, just in terms of just the NBA efficiency standards. But, you know, if he can put together anything in the paint, that's a consistent threat. Because right now, you know, is his only option to get up a decent

shot is to drive into the restricted area, even when there's not necessarily anything there. And if you can improve his handle, that becomes less of an issue in-range. But if you have no, if you've got kind of not a great handle and no in-between game, you might have some issues there. But his athleticism may just be enough if he can tone up that handle a bit to, I think, overcome the lack of any sort of in-between game. So just one final thing. And this could have just been my own perceptions. I did feel like at times maybe he was a little bit aggressive toward his teammates in his body language and I have no idea what he was saying. But when they made mistakes, did you pick up on that at all? I mean, it could. Granted, this is just entirely

what I saw on TV. It's by, you know, it's entirely possible that the guy could be a great teammate and everybody loves him. It didn't feel like his teammates had an issue with that, but I don't want to speak to like the intricacies of right like on-court or off-court dynamics on a team that like I only really followed for one player um that I have otherwise no interest in at all um sorry Arizona um it's just not a program that really I care for outside of the NBA draft context but yeah I I mean, maybe, but I'd rather have a guy that you'd need to, like, reel in on occasion than have a guy who you want to get going more so and, like, get fired up because one thing, at least is going to be sure about Ben Matherin is that he wants to win.

Yeah, I agree with that. And I think, I mean, Troy Weaver has been unequivocal in his unwillingness to compromise on characters. So, I mean, if he were to come to the conclusion that's, I mean, if Ben Matherin's behavior toward his teammates actually wore an issue, I think that would be a giant minus for him when it came to being drafted by the Pistons. All right. So any additional weaknesses you want to go over before I move on to Fit with the Pistons? Nope.

All right. So Fit with the Pistons. I know it's brought up that when the Pistons, I know there's some horror of the philosophy that when you're in the early stages of a rebeau like this with the Pistons, you just draft purely for talent. You don't care about fit. I disagree with that. So I feel like the rebuild really got, I don't want to say it got accelerated, but it definitely

the phase of it got changed when the Pistons were able to, we're able to draft Kade, potential superstar talent, and you're going to draft with some fit with him as going to be in mind. So I have this philosophy that I've repeated quite a few times that it's not just about talent, it's about value that can be talent plus fit. And I feel like Mathuron is just a very, would be a very solid fit with Kade. And what's your opinion of how you see him, you know, the value you think he would provide as a backboard partner, Kate Cunningham? Well, one point that you've brought up in the past that I think is very interesting with Hamadu Diallo. And this kind of is what actually started me kind of following the Matherin rabbit hole all the way down to Canadian Wonderland, basically, is Hamadu.

Hamadu's issue is that he's an exceptional athlete, but can't really find a place in like a starting lineup or even as like a primary option in like a rotation, you know, like as like a good off the bench guy on a really good team because his shot just isn't where it needs to be and hasn't for pretty much since he got into the league. And so I think the fit with Cade, it will be, if we do end up with Mathrin, which I don't think is a given, is pretty good because I think that the upside for him to be that secondary handler, but also bring the off-ball capabilities that we kind of desperately need on this team to vertically, horizontally space the floor, because he's a legitimate lob threat as,

a two guard which is hamadu is and i'm not saying matherin's as good of an athlete as homie but i i am going to say he's very much in the upper end of NBA athletes probably in that like as you said 85 plus percentile range which is very very good it's just not the elite elite elite like a jaw for instance but what is nice about Mathrin is that the shot and the is I think already very real is very much a threat on volume off movement, something we desperately need, and I think that he can provide more consistency on that end from a team that like we were what like 29th in three point shooting or something ridiculous. It was bad.

It was bad. It was and I mean it started historically bad. And so I think that if you like the idea of a Hamadu Diallo that could shoot and not just shoot but shoot well on difficult shots, that I think is a tremendous value. Even if he might not have like the spooky crazy athleticism of like a Jayne Ivy that I think is something we would. really enjoy to see grow with Cade because another thing about Mathurin is that he's only 20. He is a sophomore,

but he's a very young sophomore. He's still 19 as of this recording. And this is a guy who like really put himself in a very unique situation because he he's from French Canada from Montreal

and he moved himself as a 16 year old over to Mexico City before he went to college in Arizona. And he shows, I think, that there's been a lot of growth in his game from like a teenager. He's not like, he wasn't a super phenom like Cade, for instance, where it's just like, okay, this guy is going to be great. And he's like 16, 17 tearing up at Mount Verde.

but we've shown or seen that this guy is very dedicated to improving his game, is still very young, very athletic, very competitive. And overall, I think from a culture fit, but also from a on-court fit, it's hard for us at five to get much better, in my opinion. Yeah, like I said, it's about what value the pissants are going to get out of him. It's not just his, I'm agreeing with you, and it's not just his talent. And he does have a good degree of talent. I'm not sure if he'll reach what Hamadu can do off the dribble.

Like, Hamadu is very good. I mean, he's even with Kaden, the equation, is the best player on the team. It was last season at just getting to the basket and scoring there. So, I mean, if Mathrim would have developed that kind of handle, like, Hamadu has, like, he's not good in terms of dribble moves, but he can just explode in there. And he's very hard to stop at the basket.

If he could get there, great. But, yeah, he's several light years ahead of Hamadu as a shooter. Like you said, that's really what is holding Hamadu. him to back. He would be a starter in the NBA and could be a 20 point per game score if he were a good shooter. But right now he can't even get the set shot down. Matherin's a good movement shooter. So I think for the Pistons, you're finding an intersection with his, with Matherin's very good athleticism and his very good shooting. It's worth noting that in a smaller shooting role, he shot 42%. And in his freshman season, it was only three and a half attempts per game.

But he took a lot of difficult threes this year in this past season. So that athleticism, which the Pistons really need, like desperately need, because you've got Cade and Bay together in the starting lineup and really no elite athletes, unless you consider a grant one. And Mathrim's really on that, the edge of elite athleticism. Like, off ball movement,

Pistons definitely need that. The ability just to beat your guy off the dribble, even if you do nothing with it, is an end in itself for unhinging the defense. And, yeah, I think just, yeah, that intersection of athleticism and shooting a potential as a creator, I think would give him good value next decade, but I feel like also just the actions he could run next decade off the cut.

Like cuts aren't a huge source of offense in the NBA, but you'll find some there off of running off of screens for motion shots. And also just he's going to have an easier time getting open shots in the NBA with offenses that are geared toward that. So I think he would just find a good niche in the offense as a guy who doesn't need the ball, but hopefully he can do more things on it as he develops, but just again have a lot of offball utility. So what would you see in terms of I know we've already touched on this about. What do you think Mathrim will need to do in order to be more of a role player and possibly like one of that number two, number three option on a championship team?

It's I think some combination of an improvement in his passing, in his shot selection, and in his ability to finish through contact. I don't think all aspects need to be. be like fully maximized for him to get to that ballpark of player. But I think all three need to come along in order for him to be a viable, like, complimentary Robin to Batman sort of player for the Pistons or whatever team he ends up playing for. Yeah, I would say that the passing will definitely be a thing. I mean, you basically, if you're going to be on the ball.

the NBA these days have to be able to be a decent passer. And I think he's there already. But if he can couple motion three-point shooting with his excellent off-ball movement, with the fact that opponents need to cover him closely at the three-point line because he can shoot through relatively close coverage. And he can couple all of that with the ability to attack off the drive, which I think he can do with his athleticism. Because the closer defender is covering you, the easier time you're going to have getting past him.

as opposed to guys who can sag off a couple of steps and then they have more time to react. So if he can do that, you know, fantastic, you've got a guy, you know, and if he can, you know, if he can actually get to the basket and score, you've got a guy who I think could do a lot because you saw at the college level, like just the combination of the threat of his shot and his athleticism, like they had to defend him closely. And then when he got into the interior, they, you know, he would draw extra coverage and he could find, usually find the open man. So if you had that combination of things, you know, just great shooting, really good shooting off of motion situations, good spot-up shooting, good ability to shoot through coverage and the ability to really punish

people for guarding him closely and then to make the right pass if he draws double coverage. I mean, I think that's a very valuable player. I mean, what would you see kind of as his ceiling? I think the ceiling is maybe like a version of Jalen Brown is probably like my, most optimistic kind of projection as like a just a really good second option. I really do you think he'd be that strong out of the drive? Yeah, I think that the, I like the frame that he, he has. It's just going to be like confidence in his handle and ability to improve through contact, I think, because we know that he's kind of fearless already.

It's just a matter of applying that, I think, more situations. And if he could get there, then you're looking at a guy who can kind of stretch the floor, but also apply rim pressure. And I can think a few things we need more than that as Pistons fans. Yeah, guys who can create, definitely. And guys who can shoot is great. And I just keep coming back to with Cade.

I mean, a guy who can take advantage of really the gravity that Cade attracts. I mean, you're seeing it in the place. playoffs with, I mean, Steph gets trapped by the Mavericks and Luca gets trapped by the warriors. And if they can just get that pass off, especially the players who are quick at getting open and can capitalize on the fact that now there's a defender who's out of position. I mean, that's huge. Yeah, for Matheron, like, even just attacking off of situations in which he catches the ball in motion and penetrates the basket. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, I think as his ceiling, yeah, I think he could maybe, I would say be the number.

number three guy in a championship team, you'd really have to hope for a lot for number two. However, I think his floor, as long as he can translate the shooting and the athleticism, it could be as a fairly good starter. That's not a great outcome. But I think he's got a very respectable floor also. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I think that pretty much any NBA team would welcome a two-guard, two-three-ish long wing type who can shoot motion threes and provide

plenty of vertical pop to go along with it. And if he's playing that reduced role, I think the defense will go up and the shooting numbers will actually only improve. So yeah, I think that even if he is just a high-end starter, like fifth option type, as just like a guy you plug in, like a KCP, I think that that's a pretty reasonable floor.

Yeah, I know the KCP comp has been brought up. It does scare me. Also, something about Cantavius. I mean, Contavius, not the greatest basketball IQ. But, yeah, it's a comp I don't really like because I just said, I see that they just play very almost just in a different way. I know we're getting, we're getting up close to an hour here, so I don't want to go to a KCP comp.

It just scares me. It's KCP, like the issue for me with KCP is just his basketball IQ, and I don't think that Matherin shares that issue with him, fortunately. But in terms of a comp, you brought yours up with Jalen Brown. The one that I see is a sort of form of Victor Oladipo in his pre-injury days like that, that all-MBA, 13, all-MBA season with the Pacers in 2017, 2018. They've got, so his, like, Oedipo's lost a lot in the way of athleticism from these injuries. But before that, he was a pretty darn good athlete, and I see a lot in common between he and

Mathurin in terms of how they move, in terms of their athleticism. in terms of how they're passing is, you know, straight line passing and, you know, kind of a decisive fashion capitalizing on the attention that they, that they garner. And just the intensity with which they play, I think that it's unlikely that Mattler will be quite as good on the ball as Oladipo was, but I think he'll be a significantly better shooter just in terms of, just in terms of the utility that he has. So, I mean, if you can get the player like that, you know, fantastic, that would be an excellent outcome, particularly in this draft.

Yeah, better shooting Ola Depot would be, I'd be over the moon. Oh, absolutely. That would be a great outcome. Yeah, I mean, I don't think, like I said, I don't think, like Ola Dpo was very good at scoring at the basket at that point. And I'm not sure if Matheron will get there. I mean, if you can, fantastic. But also, like, that Ola Depot would not be as good on this team because he was

unequivocally the primary hand over there. And he would not have that next decade. Matherin, however, can be very, very valuable off the ball. if he becomes a good creator would not lose a ton off the ball. Yeah, you just in one sentence summed up exactly why I'm so high on him for the pistons or just in general that the off the ball role for him, I think, is already carved out. But what we need more of on this team is an athletic creator. And especially an athletic creator that can play off of a primary option.

We are fortunate as Pistons fans to have the presumptive primary option of the future on our roster already. And so we can kind of build around that a little bit. And that's kind of your point around value that I really agree with because you have a guy in Cade who is like just tremendous after the All Star break and kind of around that point. just completely like solved some of his uh i think just uncertainty with playing the game at that level and is shown that this guy is kind of a cut above pretty much anybody and you you have him about about anybody but he's definitely up there i'd say any rookie i should any rookie got you okay yeah that i agree with i think he had the best stretch of play of any rookie and that's including jalen green finally like coming alive.

I was more impressed by K, but I'm biased. I'm a homer. So any. Fair enough. That we have that guy to build around and let's try to get a guy who can play off of Kade, but also I think could take that pressure off Kade, but in a way that's better than Corey Joseph or Killion Hayes. Oh, yes.

Who are not athletic threats. And especially in like Killing Hayes case isn't like, like a threat to do much of anything on offense, even if he is probably almost definitely the better defender than Mathrin at this point. Yeah, I mean, definitely Killian's a good defender. Absolutely should give that to him. 100% I agree.

Yeah, it's so, yeah, when you're looking for a guy next to K, definitely the guy who doesn't need the ball can play off of him. But hopefully, yeah, you just, you said it well, can take the pressure off of him as a creator and hopefully Matherin can get there. That's the big question about him. Can he get there as a creator? And I've got a good degree of confidence in it. All right. And with that, let's move on to our listener submitted questions.

So one that I would say is the most primarily relevant to exactly what we were just talking about. Whom would each of us want at number five, assuming the three bigs are gone. So I'm not sure if you're going to agree with this, but this has been brought up recently. I mean, the rumors have been flying around. And I agree this is a possibility, not necessarily because it would be a good idea, just because the Kings are who they are with a playoff obsessed owner. You know, business fans should be familiar with that. it's possible the kings would move number four.

And I think that's a realistic situation. And if they do move number four, I'm pretty sure that whoever picks there will take Jaden Ivy. Do you think that's a likely scenario? I think that if they don't go Kegan Murray at four, that they will move the pick. So yes. Yeah.

So if you had asked me a week ago, and we talked about it a week ago, actually, yeah, on the last episode, I would have probably said Shaden Sharp. I don't like Muriel that much. I just, yeah, we'll talk. Mario will be in a future episode. So if the past and set number five and Ivy has gone on, the three bigs are gone,

yeah, I would be going with Mathrin at this point. Like we said earlier in the episode, I mean, Shaden, for me, lost a lot when he just refused to show anything, not just because, you know, probably reflected pretty poorly on his mentality, but also just because we don't know anything. And I don't think that the front offices are going to, know a ton either. So yeah, who would be your number five? Matherin would be my selection even higher than five. So he's, he's my choice. Yeah. Pretty much that's why I'm on this pod because I love me.

Some Benedict Matherin with two ends. Yeah. I hear you. Yeah. So for anybody who wants to watch tape on Benedict Matherin, there's a there's a YouTube channel called The Scouting R-A-P-P-O-R-T. And they've got a whole lot of Benedict Mathron, Iolites. You can sink yourself into about an hour's worth of them. So, all right, moving on. If the Bistons pick up a pick in the 20 to 30 range, who are some guys you would prefer they target? So anybody in mind for you?

I think it depends a lot on who we go with for our first top 10 pick. At number five, if we go Matherin, then I probably look for a bigger wing or a big. That's probably my first inclination is kind of spread the love, if you will. And at that range, I really like the idea of maybe taking a shot on Kendall Brown if we get to, like, pick 25 or so, because Kendall Brown is another guy that is an absolute freak of an athlete. But his half-court offensive game is pretty much revolves around passing and done. he will oftentimes refuse to just look at the rim and i think he'd be a guy who should go back but he is he basically plays on pogo sticks the dude can sky and just taking an athletic

like he's six eight is um like wing that in that range and just kind of as a pure dart I think would fit really well with us because he's very raw, but he has just incredible bounce. And that's something we need. All right. I hear you. Yeah. So for me, it would depend on where in the 20s.

So, yeah, I think you said that very same thing. And so if it were like 28, 29, I would consider looking at Christian Poloko. So pretty strong defender overall. maybe not great on switches, but good, super athletic, really good measurements. And yeah, one of the draft guys, I tend to just do my own analysis, but San Vasini, I think, is quite good at his job. And one of the things he said that I thought was a really good point that he made is that, well, in his opinion, it's good to go with guys in the 20s who have high floors. You know, some people have the philosophy that's, you know, whatever, it's, you know,

picking the end of the first round, just shoot for ceiling. So his argument, which I thought was very persuasive, was that you go for guys with high floors because then great, you've got solid contributing role players on very affordable contracts for the next four years. And if that's your timeline, I mean, if you're planning on really starting to compete in the next couple of years, then that's a very good value proposition. So along those lines, I mean, Coloco could be a good option. I mean, it could be a cheap center who's either a long-term backup or maybe, you hope that he becomes your starter on a team that's got a lot of talent elsewhere.

In the high 20s, and this is a situation that this guy could well end up at the end of the lottery. It's hard to say because he had a very impressive combine. It's Jalen Williams. He, oh, right, you didn't say if it was where the pick was. You said whom they pick. So, yeah, if they pick Mathrim, maybe this is less of a good one, but you can never have enough of these athletic wings. Jalen Williams, super athletic. That really shoots well, good defender, a great length.

he's about the same height as Matherin with a 7 foot 2 wingspan pretty good passer and yeah that would I think that would be that would be a worthy pick yeah uh Jalen Williams and another guy turquavion Smith I don't like him well he play he doesn't play defense is one issue but if if we get like pick 30 for whatever reason I'd be over the moon grabbing Terquavion Smith if he wants to like pre-draft and play uh on the cruise for a year because as he said like getting that those extra years of control and he's not a high floor player by any stretch of the imagination but i have i've kind of fall in love with his ability to just just make shots and he's very fun in that regard and getting a a pure he's even more of a pure dart that

than I think Kendall Brown is in certain respects. And he could really be a fantastic player, but you kind of get all outcomes. So if I wanted to go the more like high floor, low variance type of player, I think this is a guy Sam Vassini really likes. I think a guy like Jake LaRavia would just fit right in. He's he can defend well, he can make shots he's actually fairly athletic and he's big and if we're replacing grant in whatever

scenario he could be like kind of a fifth fifth uh guy on a starting team and fifth guy in the starting one up huh yeah i think that that's that's that's yeah as as like a four who just does like good things he makes good passes and i think he's the quintessential like just get a dude who's going to play and you have you're right getting getting that that team control is is a huge deal especially as we start maxing like kade hopefully hopefully kate's good enough to max and and then paying bay and you know paying whoever we pick at five or number one hopefully next year um getting a guy who that's a little wishful thinking but uh yeah getting a guy who can just be cheap and good while we're actually improving because we have a lot of young guys right now,

but by the time we're competitive, they're going to need to be paid, basically. And so we kind of need to keep, I think, accruing that young quality talent. And so I think that there would be a home, especially if we've moved Grant for Jake LaRavia to at least get into the rotation. Yeah, the Pistons definitely need rotation. players. I mean, I think if you look at at who's actually who's on the roster right now, I mean, the Pistons don't really have a ton of

guys you can look at, you can point at going forward and say this guy will definitely be in the rotation. Then you want guys who can actually play in the postseason. So, that's definitely there. It's just livers. Yeah, livers, maybe Frank Jackson, maybe Diallo.

I'm probably forgetting somebody, but yeah, in terms of the younger players, yeah. But yeah, Tricavion Smith, I kind of feel like he'd only be, I don't think you can play next to Kade because he just likes to be on the ball and shoot. He'd have to be that kind of second, that kind of sixth man rule. But man, on pull-up threes, which you love to take this year, 32 of 112. I mean, yeah, he was, he's a good catch-and-shoot guy, but he loves to take those pull-up threes.

And he was terrible at them. So, yeah, you'd have to hope he developed, I think, into some sort of like Tyler, Tyler Harrow sort of dude. Because I don't think you could ever put him in a starting lineup, including his defense. I wouldn't mind having a Tyler Hero type on my basketball team. Oh, no, nobody does. But yeah, that's a lot to ask for. Yes, yes.

It's a tremendous job by the heat. Sorry to cut you off. It's a tremendous job by the heat in another story of how great they are developing players from kind of out of nowhere. They're the best. Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, if you get Hero at Pick 30, that's a home run. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, of course, I would say his chances of turning into him. who is significantly better, just pure shooter at the, I'll arguably the best pure shooter in the 2019 draft. I think, I think this is much more of a, of taking a lottery ticket. Yep, yep, absolutely. So, all right, folks, that'll be it for today's episode. Thank you, Price coming on the show. It's pleasure to have you. No problem. Happy to be here. If you'd like to subscribe to the show on Twitter, it's at To the BasketPod, that's T.O.,

not the number two. Thank you all for listening. Catch you next time.